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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
@cliffdweller - thanks for sharing your not altogether lovely experiences of Godly Play, with warnings duly noted.

IJ

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And here we get to the good bit. The prop was, surprise, surprise, a pumpkin. My keen mommy-eyes could see that it had been pre-hacked-about-with in the style of a jack-o-lantern and the pieces re-inserted. (Actually, I imagine anyone over five picked that up). Anyway, the story concerned a farmer who grew all kinds of pumpkins, that came out looking different, different sizes, different, skins, each one unique, etc., etc. How lovely. Well, one day, the farmer took a look inside one of his pumpkins, and saw what was in there. 'We all know what's inside pumpkins, don't we, kids', says the children's worker, lifting a handful of pre-loosened innards for inspection - 'all this gross, slimy, gooey junk - uck!!' - drops it to one side on the tray while I think to myself, You have got to be freaking kidding me. Is this going where I think it is? Oh, yes. Oh yes it is. Well the farmer fixed his pumpkin up very nicely, much better than before. He scraped out all the yucky junk and put a candle in there so the light could shine out through the eyes and the smile. And that's why we need Jesus, to replace all the bad stuff inside of us and shine out through our smiles.

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Well...I'm going to poke my neck out and say I think this could be OK! (I wasn't there, and perhaps the delivery was wonky. But...)

What if we decide to get across to kids things like

"All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

"If we say we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"

"Oh wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

My kids (now 10 and 12) have long, long been OK with the sensible idea that everyone is a tw*t, including Mum, Dad, and themselves. It's part of the Good News, required so that lovejoypeacepatiencegoodnesskindnessfaithfullnessgentlenessselfcontrol exist - are real, solid, objective, to be relied upon, not the outcome of a focus group - and that their absence is not due to the foreigners, the unemployed, the (dare I say it) bosses - but due to all of us.

And Jesus-in-me does make me smile, now and again. He even temporarily stops me being such a twat, until the next time. My kids have often reminded me of his apparent absence in me.

(Most memorably during a heated argument my wife and I were having in the car about the fruit of the spirit. They just about broke their nascent irony meters ).

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Most memorably during a heated argument my wife and I were having in the car about the fruit of the spirit.

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You had an argument with your wife in the CAR?

Surely not! That's never, ever happened to us, of course ...

[ 31. October 2017, 16:30: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Originally posted by hatless:


I suspect there is something about the expectation that you can express the Gospel in five visually memorable minutes to a group aged from 2 to 102 that produces such dreadful failures.

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Especially since it took Jesus his entire life to live it, and the rest of us are stumbling along in his footsteps. Visualising the process as a pumpkin just makes me want to kick the darn thing out of the way so I can get on with the process.

I remember someone trying to describe grace to me as a child....a vase that gets filled if you're good but spills if you do something against God's wishes. ????

Seriously, sometimes I think we underestimate the ability of children to absorb (over time) ideas about God's love and how to live within that love.

sabine

[ 31. October 2017, 19:25: Message edited by: sabine ]

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
we might be able to incorporate a very simple Eucharist as well, not necessarily every month. We shall see.

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Kids need to know that they are normal, that everything they feel is normal. OK. Natural. Every scary, scared impulse, every feeling. That is better, best objectively, safely said than acted out.

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Originally posted by Martin60:
Why we're scaring kids with the weirdness of the Bible, the NT, let alone the OT, I don't know. I think the RCC was on to something in keeping it out of unlearned hands.

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This will amuse you - My mother (fundagelical), relating to me (aged about ten, probably), a conversation she'd recently had with her own mother (Roman Catholic). Mum: "She said to me, you don't let your children read the Bible, do you? I mean, it's full of prostitutes, and incest, and murder! Ha, ha, ha!" Me: ... ? ... ?

But, in all seriousness, my parents read the WHOLE Bible through, over and over, a chapter a day, at mealtime, throughout my childhood and adolescence, and - honestly - I don't know how I feel about that. I think I'm probably not sorry they did it, in many ways, but it probably did have the effect that the bits of it that resonated most with me for the longest time were the parts that made good stories, rather than the parts that contained good instruction. I mean, the book of Daniel is a rollicking read, Jonah is kind of hilarious, and Esther seems really neat too before you are old enough to think through how seriously fucked up all that stuff is. The thing is, I suspect just reading it isn't enough - I had read it all, so many times, I could quote chunks of it off by heart, and I'm only just realising now (in my forties, and having had a break from it for a while), what some of the undercurrents running through the thing are. Maybe the Bible is like a crossword in that way - you make better progress with it if you put it down and do some other stuff for a while.

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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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Originally posted by anoesis:
Maybe the Bible is like a crossword in that way - you make better progress with it if you put it down and do some other stuff for a while.

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Well...I'm going to poke my neck out and say I think this could be OK! (I wasn't there, and perhaps the delivery was wonky. But...)

What if we decide to get across to kids things like

"All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

"If we say we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"

"Oh wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

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quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
My kids (now 10 and 12) have long, long been OK with the sensible idea that everyone is a tw*t, including Mum, Dad, and themselves. It's part of the Good News, required so that lovejoypeacepatiencegoodnesskindnessfaithfullnessgentlenessselfcontrol exist - are real, solid, objective, to be relied upon, not the outcome of a focus group - and that their absence is not due to the foreigners, the unemployed, the (dare I say it) bosses - but due to all of us.

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
And Jesus-in-me does make me smile, now and again.

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This. I'm not sure there are any suitable stories to teach children from the bible. The idea seems zany in a lot of ways.

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Alright, I'll bite again. Suitable in whose terms? Within its own terms, it surely the Bible can't rule itself out. So which acknowledged or un-acknowledged g(G)od is guiding us in our decisions about suitability?

On the 'OT - let's not even go there' front - with which I have some sympathy, having taught Sunday school - I happen to be reading a collection of essays by Marilynne Robinson called 'When I was a child I read books'. There's one in there called 'Moses: The Fate of Ideas' which expands rather learnedly on the theme of judging the OT by C21 standards, and what that implies about what we think of its status as literature.

I intend to discuss the article with my kids when the occasion next arises

(Oh - and if you haven't read her novel 'Gilead', I very much recommend it).

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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x-post with Anoesis - to be addressed, then I really ought to go to work

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I have come to realise, slowly, painfully, that yes, I'm ok the way I am - I'm acceptable the way I am - and here's the thing. I'm not a happy person...If you try and get an idea of what the disciples might have felt, when called, ISTM that happiness just isn't in the picture at all. Excitement, possibly - inspiration, opportunity, urgency, the sense of being part of something so much greater than themselves - a whole new kingdom! ...Right now, I'm leaning toward the Sallies**. Trumpets! Cymbals! Join the Lord's Army!!

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

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This. I'm not sure there are any suitable stories to teach children from the bible. The idea seems zany in a lot of ways.

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Alright, I'll bite again. Suitable in whose terms? Within its own terms, it surely the Bible can't rule itself out. So which acknowledged or un-acknowledged g(G)od is guiding us in our decisions about suitability?

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quote:

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On the 'OT - let's not even go there' front - with which I have some sympathy, having taught Sunday school - I happen to be reading a collection of essays by Marilynne Robinson called 'When I was a child I read books'. There's one in there called 'Moses: The Fate of Ideas' which expands rather learnedly on the theme of judging the OT by C21 standards, and what that implies about what we think of its status as literature.

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In the simple terms that the stories are not suitable for children.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

mr cheesy

I wonder how many children are damaged by attending mainstream, normal Sunday schools. Sunday school attendance has fallen dramatically, which perhaps signifies that Sunday school really is a very unpleasant environment for children.

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I think the more usual attitude among leavers is that Sunday school is simply boring and babyish, but perhaps parents who don't send their children at all do worry that the experience might be harmful in some way.

OTOH, it seems so normal now for modern kids to access age-inappropriate video games, films and websites. Family break up and the influence of the wider society also mean that many children (from non-religious families) hardly live in a protective cocoon when it comes to scary ideas.

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Well...I get that as parents we have to make snap choices about 'suitability' all the time. But this is Purgatory - even if we don't acknowledge the complexity of the way we decide 'what's suitable' in the moment we are doing it, it's surely informed by a load of deep-down stuff which is not simple.

In the context of the kind of purgatorial knob-polishing we're indulging in, it's perhaps a grotesque posture to pull up that I had to tell my kids, at age 4 and 2, that one of their classmates was dead. Later I had to confirm the playground rumour that the father was responsible for the death. I suppose I am saying that life is unsuitable, and that I welcome digging into that with my kids in the context of bible stories. More than welcome it.

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I've known various kids who have been through this kind of religious schooling and have emerged relatively unscathed.

My worry is that if they ever properly understood the bible stories that they were being taught, it ought to scar them and that if it doesn't something is seriously wrong.

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

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In the simple terms that the stories are not suitable for children.

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Well...I get that as parents we have to make snap choices about 'suitability' all the time. But this is Purgatory - even if we don't acknowledge the complexity of the way we decide 'what's suitable' in the moment we are doing it, it's surely informed by a load of deep-down stuff which is not simple.

In the context of the kind of purgatorial knob-polishing we're indulging in, it's perhaps a grotesque posture to pull up that I had to tell my kids, at age 4 and 2, that one of their classmates was dead. Later I had to confirm the playground rumour that the father was responsible for the death. I suppose I am saying that life is unsuitable, and that I welcome digging into that with my kids in the context of bible stories. More than welcome it.

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I wasn't aware that I was "knob-polishing"

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I would never say to a child that a parent was responsible for the death of a classmate.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I'm currently inflicting the chapter-a-day on my kid, and it has (among many other things) allowed us to discuss the existence of evil in the world, and cope better when that evil comes close to home. I'd rather he get his exposure to such things through the Bible than through sensationalized movies and TV. He's going to get it, one way or the other.

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But apparently it's honourable to behave dishonourably, so long as you choose the right God

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
Maybe the Bible is like a crossword in that way - you make better progress with it if you put it down and do some other stuff for a while.

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This. I'm not sure there are any suitable stories to teach children from the bible. The idea seems zany in a lot of ways.

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Originally posted by Golden Key:

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Originally posted by mr cheesy:

quote:

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Originally posted by anoesis:
Maybe the Bible is like a crossword in that way - you make better progress with it if you put it down and do some other stuff for a while.

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This. I'm not sure there are any suitable stories to teach children from the bible. The idea seems zany in a lot of ways.

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I don't have kids. But if I did, and had the same spiritual progression/journey, I doubt that I'd raise them in church or Sunday school. I wouldn't want to teach them that things from my "don't know" stack are definitely true, and I wouldn't want to expose them to the nastier aspects and interpretations of the Bible and Christianity.

I'd definitely teach them the ethical stuff, "love thy neighbor", etc., and answer any religious questions they had the best I could, and any questions about my own ideas.

At some point, there would probably be conversations about things various people believe: Christianity, other religions, atheism and humanism {waves to Susan}, agnosticism, seeking, and simple disinterest. We might visit various groups. If the kids showed interest in a particular thing, I'd try to find a way to help them connect with it.

I wouldn't make a practice of reading the Bible to them, though I'd probably let them know my "don't know" view. And I might familiarize them with the basic things that I like and that they'd probably run into anyway--23rd Psalm, Lord's Prayer, etc.

And, of course, I'd worry about doing the right thing. But that goes with being a parent.

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

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But apparently it's honourable to behave dishonourably, so long as you choose the right God

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I hope I don't sound aggressive with this - but your statement interests me. ISTM our g(G)od(s) determine what, for each of us, is honourable;

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Rahab:

Weren't her (Jewish?) people captives there in Jericho? So her tipping off Joshua et al. (IIRC, red cord out a window?) would've been to save herself and her people from their captors/ enslavers/ oppressors.

FWIW.

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Originally posted by anoesis:
What makes you think Rahab and her family were Israelites?

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Originally posted by anoesis:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Rahab:

Weren't her (Jewish?) people captives there in Jericho? So her tipping off Joshua et al. (IIRC, red cord out a window?) would've been to save herself and her people from their captors/ enslavers/ oppressors.

FWIW.

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What makes you think Rahab and her family were Israelites?

Anyway, I went back and looked at the first few chapters of Joshua. It doesn't read as though the people of Jericho were under siege to me. Of course, if you want to take it literally, it's all the same one way or another, and the Israelites had no need of Rahab, because the walls fell down when they all shouted at Joshua's command. One does wonder what happened to Rahab's house (which was in the wall) on such an occasion. Any way you look at it, she was a turncoat. But it's like the old saying, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, isn't it?

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The Bible records in a variety of places that God helped the Children of Israel to great victories in which a vast number of of their enemies were slain, often including non-combatants. Occasionally, the tables were turned, and the Israelites were carried off captive here and there. The Bible in turn records this as being because they had done evil in the sight of the Lord. But what if it's just all a figure of speech? A lens through which the stuff that happened is viewed by the writer(s)?

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• Genesis chapter 1, pretty story of creation and all, but it's actually out of order from what we know scientifically - I did tell that one as a story of how the world started, but I really wasn't happy with Adam and Eve and the serpent with the repercussions.
• Jacob and Esau - let's trick the old man and win out, plus all the other stories about Jacob?
• Noah's Ark, lovely children's story with the animals going two by two, but what about all the world that wasn't saved? We had an illustrated children's Bible which had a picture of drowning people around the Ark, shudder.
• Joseph and his coat of many colours - it's fine try to kill your brother, or trick your brothers to prove their good faith? And how do you explain Potiphar's wife?
• Moses - basket in the bulrush, those plagues being delivered to Egypt, wandering in the wilderness, crossing the Red Sea (killing all the soldiers), we conveniently forget that Moses killed someone early on.
• Joshua and the walls of Jericho, followed by genocide
• David and Goliath, followed by genocide

• carefully selected OT stories in the autumn term,
• Nativity through Advent, building a crib week by week: an angel first, Mary & Joseph and a donkey, shepherds and sheep, a stable, crib and baby, finishing with three kings and camels for Epiphany.
• life of Jesus sort of following the lectionary until Easter - usually finishing with Palm Sunday around the holidays and Holy Week services, referring them to the Hot Cross Bun service on Good Friday, that told the story of the crucifixion and Easter,
• the post resurrection stories until Ascension;
• bits of Acts and something about Paul - that he sent letters and travelled (walnut shell boat in a tray with a map underneath)