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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Born to Die?
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
From What Child is This? The second stanza
Why lies He in such mean estate,
Where ox and ass are feeding?
Good Christians, fear, for sinners here
The silent Word is pleading.
Nails, spear shall pierce Him through,
The cross be borne for me, for you.
Hail, hail the Word made flesh,
The Babe, the Son of Mary.
My question is, why should we have to bring in the cross in the Christmas story? Isn't the Christmas story about incarnation: God with us, Immanuel, in a man we know as Jesus? Even our creed affirms for us and for our salvation he came (down) to be with us.
He showed us how to live here on earth. How to reach out to the marginalized. How to affirm out brother/sisterhood. How to experience peace in the here and now.
I presented this question on an ELCA Clergy page. They nearly all said without the cross the manager means nothing. My counter to them was what will their children's message be on Christmas Eve/Day? Not one of them said they will say anything about the cross.
Now don't get me wrong. The Cross and Resurrection have their place in the Jesus story, but not at Christmas.
This article bests sums up what I am thinking.
I would like to hear your reactions.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I once attended a Christmas service at the small Baptist chapel in my mother's village.
The minister spoke very briefly about the manger, the Nativity and so on ... and then in his lilting Welsh accent intoned, 'But come with me to a hill outside Jerusalem, some 33 years later ... three crosses and three men condemned to die ...'
What struck me wasn't just the telescoping of the narrative to the Nativity and the Cross (no Resurrection as I recall) but the skipping over of 30 years of Christ's 'normal' life and his 3 years of ministry and teaching.
Sure, the preacher only had a short time to speak, but it felt like a fast-forward on a video or something ...
Zzzzz-ooootttt!
Never mind all that stables and oxen stuff, the Magi and the Shepherds, little donkeys ... never mind the miracles and the parables, the Sermon on the Mount ... let's get to where the real action took place ...
That was the impression it gave.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I can't stand the nativity story, I'd prefer if it was all about the Lord's life, death and resurrection.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I think a passing reference to the wood of the manger and the wood of the Cross is adequate.
A new birth is a time of New hope. The Hope of the Resurrection following the agony of the Cross is best left for Easter. It’s too heavy for those who like to go into a Church once a year to feel a 'Christmassy'. I'm suspect this might not have been the popular view among Clergy in Christmas' past.
This isn’t discounting the fact that death and resurrection are celebrated every time at the Eucharist, including Christmas Eve. So there is no shortage of opportunity for those wishing to meditate on that one.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
I read somewhere that it's a particularly English tradition, to see Christmas as the start of the road to Easter. You get carols like "Seven Joys of Mary"...
Hope lights a candle against the midwinter darkness, that will one day be the Light of the World.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
Why bring in the marginalised or our sister and brotherhood? If you just want to stick to the nativity story itself, then fair enough. But if you are going to start talking about stuff from his adult life then one aspect is as relevant/irrelevant as another.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Now don't get me wrong. The Cross and Resurrection have their place in the Jesus story, but not at Christmas.
So no Eucharist at your place on Christmas, then? (That's unnecessarily snarky, I know.)
I find the verses of Christmas carols that mention the Baby's future demise to be absolutely haunting, and extremely powerful. In fact, we always use one as our fraction anthem on Christmas Eve, and it's always the part that makes me tear up a bit.
I mean, I wouldn't lay it on thick in a children's sermon. But it's undeniably there, and I think it says quite a bit about the cruelty of the world that the Kingdom of God is supplanting.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
Found it too late: the specific fraction anthem we sing every year is the last two verses of The Infant King (Sing Lullaby).
quote:
Sing lullaby!
Lullaby baby, now a-dozing:
sing lullaby!
Hush, do not wake the infant king.
Soon comes the cross, the nails, the piercing,
then in the grave at last reposing:
sing lullaby!
Sing lullaby!
Lullaby! is the baby awaking?
sing lullaby.
Hush, do not stir the infant king.
Dreaming of Easter, gladsome morning,
conquering death, its bondage breaking:
sing lullaby!
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
My question is, why should we have to bring in the cross in the Christmas story? Isn't the Christmas story about incarnation: God with us, Immanuel, in a man we know as Jesus? Even our creed affirms for us and for our salvation he came (down) to be with us.
From Fred Clark's notes and (personal) rules on Christmas music:
quote:
15. We appreciate Christmas carols with a bit of theological depth and richness, but we don’t care for those that try to cram a whole creed and catechism in there. Save the systematics for the seminary classroom. This is not the place to advocate for your preferred theory of atonement.
It should be noted that these are suggested rules for Christmas music specifically, not anything so broad as "the Christmas story" and how it should be treated.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
The third gift of the Magi has been linked to Jesus' death: "myrrh for time of burying."
More significantly, we don't have to wait too far in the explicit biblical narrative for a strong hint of what was to come:
quote:
Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.” (Luke 2:34-35)
Jesus himself said that he had come "to give his life as a ransom for many".
There is a danger that if you ignore what the baby did when he grew up, Christmas can be cloyingly sentimental. However, there is also a danger in moving too quickly to Good Friday and Easter, in that wonder at the extraordinary nature of the Incarnation can be lost.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The Cross and Resurrection have their place in the Jesus story, but not at Christmas.
I suppose there is value in keeping a space in which the cross isn't dragged in if you have a theological culture in which everything has to be about the cross (and a specific interpretation of the cross at that) all the time.
But I don't see that there's any reason to exclude it in a general case.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
The third gift of the Magi has been linked to Jesus' death: "myrrh for time of burying."
More significantly, we don't have to wait too far in the explicit biblical narrative for a strong hint of what was to come:
quote:
Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.” (Luke 2:34-35)
Jesus himself said that he had come "to give his life as a ransom for many".
There is a danger that if you ignore what the baby did when he grew up, Christmas can be cloyingly sentimental. However, there is also a danger in moving too quickly to Good Friday and Easter, in that wonder at the extraordinary nature of the Incarnation can be lost.
Aye. Our popular culture tends towards the first error, popular evangelicalism towards the latter. I heard many Christmas sermons that basically saw Jesus' birth as important only as a necessary qualification for his death. I used to think as a child that Jesus grew up in three months and was crucified in the March after his birth. I knew many whose theology would not be greatly upset were that so.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's commutative. Advent is meaningless without the life, death and resurrection which is meaningless without Advent. It's all one Incarnation. We don't discuss it ENOUGH. We still don't know what we're talking about.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Why include references to Easter? Well, one answer is that this is a poem, not a theological treatise, so don't read too much into it. In the same way, I don't mind singing "In the bleak midwinter" even though I know the words are very anachronistic.
Another answer is that these words simply make the connection between the two events. This is the same Christ the King - the baby and the Crucified One. The words don't labour the Easter story, but they do act as a reminder that the Christmas narrative is only part of a much bigger story.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Why include references to Easter? Well, one answer is that this is a poem, not a theological treatise, so don't read too much into it. In the same way, I don't mind singing "In the bleak midwinter" even though I know the words are very anachronistic.
[TANGENT]I've heard it suggested that they're allegorical, referring to the dead coldness of humanity into which Jesus was born. Maybe. Maybe not.[/TANGENT]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
C'mon, Herod ordering the killing of all of the babies Massacre of the Innocents, which introduces death right at the start doesn't it?
The Coventry Carol is about this. I think we're all a lot fluffier and sensitive that people from prior ages, who generally lost a few children, watched public executions while picnicking, owned or were owned by others, and generally lived very close to the edges of death. We simply don't get it because we don't live so close to death in our happy non-violent countries in the modern era. Too much Disney and not enough Myanmar.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
C'mon, Herod ordering the killing of all of the babies Massacre of the Innocents, which introduces death right at the start doesn't it?
The Coventry Carol is about this. I think we're all a lot fluffier and sensitive that people from prior ages, who generally lost a few children, watched public executions while picnicking, owned or were owned by others, and generally lived very close to the edges of death. We simply don't get it because we don't live so close to death in our happy non-violent countries in the modern era. Too much Disney and not enough Myanmar.
Thank God. I'm sometimes given to wonder if our ancestors were sociopaths, given the sorts of punishments they thought perfectly reasonable. You know we used to hang seven-year-olds for petty theft?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
[tangent] I saw the subject line and thought you were quoting Act 3, Scene 4 of 'Romeo and Juliet.' [/tangent]
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
our ancestors were sociopaths, given the sorts of punishments they thought perfectly reasonable. You know we used to hang seven-year-olds for petty theft?
I've snipped this as declarative statements. It needs to be put on a t-shirt: "You know we used to hang seven-year-olds for petty theft?"
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Why bring in the marginalised or our sister and brotherhood? If you just want to stick to the nativity story itself, then fair enough. But if you are going to start talking about stuff from his adult life then one aspect is as relevant/irrelevant as another.
Take a look at the nativity story. Mary was betrothed, but not married, to Joseph, yet she was inexplicably pregnant. When she was about to give birth they could not find room in the end and had to give birth in a manager. The people who first responded to the good news were marginalized people--shepherds.
Within two years of his birth, Mary and Joseph were forced to flee to Egypt as refugees.
So he knew what it meant to be marginalized from the get-go. Look at the story of when the Son of Man returns and separates the sheep from the non-sheep. Look at the criteria the SoM uses. These were people Jesus encountered throughout his life.
When I wrote about caring for the marginalized I was summing up the article I linked to. Your argument is with Mr. Hanson, the author of the article.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I find the verses of Christmas carols that mention the Baby's future demise to be absolutely haunting, and extremely powerful.
As do I, with the verse quoted in the OP, being a prime example. And there’s John Jacob Niles’ “I Wonder as I Wander,” which is based on fragments of an Appalachian folk hymn.
quote:
I mean, I wouldn't lay it on thick in a children's sermon. But it's undeniably there, and I think it says quite a bit about the cruelty of the world that the Kingdom of God is supplanting.
This. The cross—and the Resurrection—are already in the text of the Nativity story; they’re inextricably bound up with the Incarnation. They don’t need to be the focus, but I think they need to be acknowledged. To fail to do so is, I think, failing to tell the Nativity story in its fullness.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I once attended a Christmas service at the small Baptist chapel in my mother's village.
The minister spoke very briefly about the manger, the Nativity and so on ... and then in his lilting Welsh accent intoned, 'But come with me to a hill outside Jerusalem, some 33 years later ... three crosses and three men condemned to die ...'
What struck me wasn't just the telescoping of the narrative to the Nativity and the Cross (no Resurrection as I recall) but the skipping over of 30 years of Christ's 'normal' life and his 3 years of ministry and teaching.
Sure, the preacher only had a short time to speak, but it felt like a fast-forward on a video or something ...
Zzzzz-ooootttt!
Never mind all that stables and oxen stuff, the Magi and the Shepherds, little donkeys ... never mind the miracles and the parables, the Sermon on the Mount ... let's get to where the real action took place ...
That was the impression it gave.
Have you ever read St. Thomas Christmas sermon from
Murder in the Cathedral? I think it holds the perfect answer to your question.
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My cooking blog: http://inthekitchenwithdon.blogspot.com/
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Now don't get me wrong. The Cross and Resurrection have their place in the Jesus story, but not at Christmas.
So no Eucharist at your place on Christmas, then? (That's unnecessarily snarky, I know.)
I find the verses of Christmas carols that mention the Baby's future demise to be absolutely haunting, and extremely powerful. In fact, we always use one as our fraction anthem on Christmas Eve, and it's always the part that makes me tear up a bit.
I mean, I wouldn't lay it on thick in a children's sermon. But it's undeniably there, and I think it says quite a bit about the cruelty of the world that the Kingdom of God is supplanting.
I largely agree. Now I have recently come to a church which has Eucharist on Christmas Eve (unusual for Nonconformism in my experience) and I am finding this a bit jarring. Although I certainly want to think about the entire "Jesus story", to actually have Communion on Christmas night seems to be pointing the spotlight a little too strongly in the wrong direction.
I'm using "Sing lullaby" during the service, by the way.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I think there are two things going on here, especially in evangelical churches.
First up, and if I am feeling malicious, lots of preachers don’t know how to preach about the incarnation. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) The crucifixion feels like much safer ground to them.
Secondly, Christmas is one of those times when people tend to come to church who don’t attend the rest of the year. Consequently preachers feel that it is very important to set out the Plan of Salvation™ and their version of the gospel necessarily involves talking about the crucifixion.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I think there are two things going on here, especially in evangelical churches.
First up, and if I am feeling malicious, lots of preachers don’t know how to preach about the incarnation. The crucifixion feels like much safer ground to them.
Yes - certainly in the past some Evangelicals were so keen to express Christ's divinity that they ended up in Docetism. Not sure if that's quite so true today.
quote:
[QB}Secondly, Christmas is one of those times when people tend to come to church who don’t attend the rest of the year. Consequently preachers feel that it is very important to set out the Plan of Salvation™ and their version of the gospel necessarily involves talking about the crucifixion. [/QB]
Absolutely true, although only in the more "strait-laced" Evangelical churches I suspect. I've heard something very similar done in "High Church" Anglicanism, too.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Yes - certainly in the past some Evangelicals were so keen to express Christ's divinity that they ended up in Docetism.
Oddly enough it was John Wimber & co. that pulled me back from that particular brink.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
Why bring in the marginalised or our sister and brotherhood? If you just want to stick to the nativity story itself, then fair enough. But if you are going to start talking about stuff from his adult life then one aspect is as relevant/irrelevant as another.
And indeed his Mum preached a damn good sermon on the marginalized shortly after his conception, but still before his birth.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
And there’s John Jacob Niles’ “I Wonder as I Wander,” which is based on fragments of an Appalachian folk hymn.
I thought of that as soon as I read the thread title. Here are the words of the first stanza.
I wonder as I wander out under the sky.
How Jesus the savior was born for to die,
For poor ornery people like you and like I,
I wonder as I wander, out under the sky.
For me this emphasizes what a wonderful thing the incarnation was, that Jesus should do this for 'poor ornery people like you and like I'
Moo
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Humble Servant
Shipmate
# 18391
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
The third gift of the Magi has been linked to Jesus' death: "myrrh for time of burying."
Matt 2:11 is the only mention of myrrh in the nativity story. It doesn't explain what it was for. Myrrh is a powerful antiseptic and used in medicine. Appropriate for a child destined for a healing ministry. Myrrh is present at the burial, but that is the only biblical association it has with death. It is mostly used as a perfume in the OT.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Apr 2015
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
And there’s John Jacob Niles’ “I Wonder as I Wander,” which is based on fragments of an Appalachian folk hymn.
I thought of that as soon as I read the thread title. Here are the words of the first stanza.
I wonder as I wander out under the sky.
How Jesus the savior was born for to die,
For poor ornery people like you and like I,
I wonder as I wander, out under the sky.
For me this emphasizes what a wonderful thing the incarnation was, that Jesus should do this for 'poor ornery people like you and like I'
Moo
Moo
Even ones who write awkward grammar?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
(what does onery mean anyway? We don't have that word here)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
(what does onery mean anyway? We don't have that word here)
Here you go: the definition of 'ornery.'
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
(what does ornery mean anyway? We don't have that word here)
Here you are.. The dictionary definition does not capture the full force of the word.
As far as the grammar is concerned, many people in the Appalachians speak a local dialect.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Had that been the sermon at the Baptist chapel in South Wales on that occasion, teddybear, then I'd have been delighted.
As it was ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
(what does ornery mean anyway? We don't have that word here)
Here you are.. The dictionary definition does not capture the full force of the word.
As far as the grammar is concerned, many people in the Appalachians speak a local dialect.
Moo
I was thinking of the "like you and like I" where I think virtually the entire English speaking world would use "me". It really jarred my ears.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I was thinking of the "like you and like I" where I think virtually the entire English speaking world would use "me". It really jarred my ears.
I am reminded of the Doors:
I'm gonna love you
till the stars fall from the sky
For you and I.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I can't stand the nativity story, I'd prefer if it was all about the Lord's life, death and resurrection.
'All about the Lord's life' doesn't include the how, why and where that life began then?
Admittedly, I could probably have lived a reasonably happy Christian life with only Mark's and John's gospel, and none of Luke's or Matthew's narratives.
Nevertheless, it does seem to be rather important to the Christian religion that the humanity of Jesus is fairly concretely established.
Sidelining the nativity, arguably, is just another excuse to sideline the role of women; not even the mother of God is allowed to get a look-in? Her conflict, her obedience? Her prophetic speech? And Elizabeth can go whistle; to say nothing of the sheer unimportance of the prophet Anna? Female AND old. Who wants to know about them? Skip all that girly stuff about giving birth - bleurggh!!
Seriously though, perhaps for some of us, seeing women as proactively important in the life of Christ and the purposes of God - and in particularly female ways - is rather a good thing, even if it is all rather a bore to others.
Which leads me to the tradition of midnight communion at Christmas. Even in the low-church days of my old Church of Ireland place, midnight communion was still pretty much a 'must'. I suppose it's the 'flesh' connection.
God came in flesh as a baby (born in Bethlehem - the 'house of bread').
God institutes the sharing of his flesh and blood with his followers via Jesus and the Last Supper.
God died in the flesh as sacrifice.
God triumphs in the flesh as resurrected Lord.
God lives in the flesh and blood of the Sacrament, as spiritual nourishment for Christ's followers, who share the flesh until his next coming.
What could be more appropriate when celebrating the nativity of the Word in Flesh, by communicating his Flesh as he commanded; the Bread of the world born in the House of Bread.
Rather elegant.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
And here we go again: we don't want the cross in the Christmas story. Why is that I wonder? Is it because we just want a nice God to walk around with us and make us feel good?
Is it because we don;t actually want the angels' message, 'Unto you is born this day a Saviour who is Christ the Lord?
Or is it because we don't want him to be called Jesus 'for he shall save his people from their sins'?
The whole reason, according to Matthew and Luke was not merely for God to be with us, but for God to be our Saviour - which, I'm sorry to remind you, necessarily involved the cross.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
The third gift of the Magi has been linked to Jesus' death: "myrrh for time of burying."
Has anyone else seen the cartoon in last week's Private Eye? An eastern looking chap is in a department store saying, "I want something who's bitter perfume, breathes a life of gathering gloom".
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't think that's the case at all, Mudfrog, but I can only speak for myself though ...
It's not that I don't want the Cross at Christmas, it's more a case that fast-forwarding to that skips over a whole swathe of 'the Christ event'.
It's reductionist.
Why not have Jesus martyred by Herod during the Massacre of the Innocents?
Why bother with the teaching and the Parables, the miracles, the Sermon on The Mount?
Why not have Herod's troops or Roman soldiers standing by to execute Christ as he lay in swaddling cloths in the manger?
If anyone's preaching a truncated Gospel it's those who telescope everything down to simplistic sound-bites whilst imagining they are preaching 'the whole counsel of God.'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There are ways of alluding to the Cross and Resurrection and anticipating other aspects and features of Christ's life and ministry, of course, whilst concentrating on the 'seasonal' aspects.
I read somewhere, I think, that most of 'Hark the herald angels sing ...' was originally an Easter hymn.
I'm sure there are better ways of making the link than to say something like,'Well, this Nativity stuff is all very nice but let's leave all that for now and let's go straight to Calvary ...'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As well as a season for excess and over-indulgence, Christmas seems the season for preacherly guilt inducement.
Our local paper has a church news page and this week it featured the usual rants lifted from parish magazines, vicars whingeing about people only coming to church once a year because they want the carols and the festive atmosphere ...
Yadda yadda yadda ...
I can understand why they do it but it's so boringly predictable.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I don't necessarily think it's important to preach the Cross per se at Christmas.
I think, it is important to mention that the Incarnation doesn't mean that God entered into a perfect human life, free of suffering, disease, loss and disappointment. The problem with focusing on the Nativity exclusively is that we are left with a happy ending story of a baby getting presents, and being worshiped.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I was thinking of the "like you and like I" where I think virtually the entire English speaking world would use "me". It really jarred my ears.
I am reminded of the Doors:
I'm gonna love you
till the stars fall from the sky
For you and I.
Yeah, I can think of a number of song lyrics where, for the sake of rhyme, “I” is used where grammatically it should be “me.” It’s not all that unusual.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I don't necessarily think it's important to preach the Cross per se at Christmas.
I think, it is important to mention that the Incarnation doesn't mean that God entered into a perfect human life, free of suffering, disease, loss and disappointment. The problem with focusing on the Nativity exclusively is that we are left with a happy ending story of a baby getting presents, and being worshiped.
Sure, but I can't remember the last time I attended any kind of Christmas service, whether liberal or evangelical or all stations in between where there wasn't some kind of reference to it being more than nice Nativity scenes and shepherds.
Heck, if it's a liberal outfit they'll certain mention refugees or something along those lines if nothing else ...
If it's an evangelical one then there'll be some attempt to 'get the Gospel in' which usually means some kind of reference to sin and the atonement - and there's material from carols that are readily to hand ...
'Cast out our sin and enter in
Be born in us today'
I've heard that applied evangelistically before now and I'm sure plenty of us here have too.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
And there’s John Jacob Niles’ “I Wonder as I Wander,” which is based on fragments of an Appalachian folk hymn.
I thought of that as soon as I read the thread title. Here are the words of the first stanza.
I wonder as I wander out under the sky.
How Jesus the savior was born for to die,
For poor ornery people like you and like I,
I wonder as I wander, out under the sky.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
(what does ornery mean anyway? We don't have that word here)
Here you are.. The dictionary definition does not capture the full force of the word.
True. But part of the force of the word lies in its origin as a form of “ordinary.” I think in this text Niles plays off the various layers of meaning: “ordinary people,” “stubborn people,” “irritating people,” ….
Incidentally, in his lyrics Niles wrote is as “on’ry,” not “ornery,” to reflect local pronunciation.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
That's the only way I've ever pronounced it, and I've never been to Appalachia.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
In an icon of the Nativity, the stable where Jesus is born is a cave. And his manger-bed is usually made of stone, resembling a sarcophagus. This is meant to tie the beginning of the story with the end. It's all there. And the midwives washing Jesus are using a basin shaped like a baptismal font. This ties the beginning of the story to the baptism of our Lord, the beginning of the years of his ministry.
It's all one story, and each piece of the story evokes the whole. You don't have to beat on it or force it. It's all there.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Hi, Josephine! Glad to see you! Hope you and your thieving pet rodent ![[Biased]](wink.gif) have very happy holidays.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
"’Tis mystery all: th’Immortal dies:
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the firstborn seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine.
’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
Let angel minds inquire no more."
Charles Wesley
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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