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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: If you're not with us ....
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Unum Solum
Shipmate
# 18904
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Posted
Excuse my generalisations and hopefully they will be corrected through your responses.
I was thinking today that that it appears that for many Christians if your not on board your lost, and so you need to get on board and evangelism is thus important. It’s even worse for you if you profess some other faith as it’s much further back.
I do not know enough about Islam but the impression I do get is that the sentiment is that your either a Muslim or your condemned, though I have never been accosted on a street corner with a view to seeing me ‘saved’.
Judaism is another of the big 3 but this seems to be more tied up into ethnicity (who mum and dad are), Judaism seems to be much more than a religion.
I know little about Hinduism, or Buddhism but again no one from these 2 belief systems has ever tried to ‘save my soul’.
So with Christianity and Islam has it always been a case of your either in or your out? Do Jews or Hindus or other faiths (?) ‘care’ about those who do not share their faith?
[ 18. February 2018, 09:34: Message edited by: Eliab ]
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I will not say do not weep for not all tears are an evil. - Gandalf
Posts: 53 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2018
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Interesting OP. Personally, I certainly do not feel in any way 'lost' and will be very interested to read why believers might think I am!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I have never made any secret of being a Christian 'toe dipper', haven’t had to dodge any thunder bolts so far.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
As a very rough generalisation, Christians and Muslims are happy to have people become converts, whereas Hindus and Jews are a bit surprised by anyone wanting to join their religion as it's more part of a family culture. I don't know much about Buddhism. Sikhism has a tolerant philosophy and one of its original gurus was martyred for defending the rights of a man from another faith.
Generally, the more Protestant/low church/ evangelical a Christian you are, the more likely you are to want to evangelise others, but there are exceptions.
Some Christians believe that only Christians go to heaven. A rather smaller proportion believe that only people who share their particular Christian beliefs go to heaven. Some Christians, however, believe that a loving God could not condemn anyone. And quite a lot don't really know, and just get on with following their own faith and let other people make their own decisions.
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
You are = you’re. Your = mine, hers, theirs etc.
(Yes, my religion is Grammar)
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eliab
Host
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
You are = you’re. Your = mine, hers, theirs etc.
I concur. Thread title corrected.
Eliab
Purgatory host
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Judaism is only big historically in its effect on Christians and Muslims. It is ever dying. Christianity has been corrupted with damnationism from the beginning, it even infected the man Jesus it appears, enculturatedly how could it not? Islam and its strong hostility is winning hands down, will run and run forever like asymptotic Judaism, but going from strength to strength.
Only minority, marginal, emergent Christianity, liberal Judaism and probably some Muslim heretics have been able to move on from the surly bonds of the Bronze Age. We have to swim in the 99% mass damnationist shoals.
The big Tees including the big O are bigger minded in this regard but carved in patriarchal stone. They've outgrown the damnationist tendency. Protestantism embraced it and hasn't let go.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
I think Christianity has always had an innie/outie issue. I think it comes from our Jewish roots, but we made it all our own very early on. On a personal level, I don't bother with that stuff. I so much don't bother with that stuff that I attend and receive communion at both Catholic and Anglican churches.
Sectarianism used to be a big thing in Australia. My Mum used to say that she had never entered a Protestant church and to do so was against the teaching of the Catholic Church. People still raise their eyebrow if you cross the floor, and occasionally I will get a comment, usually from the Catholic side. The Anglicans are too desperate, although there are one or two that might tut a bit behind my back. Sectarianism is not really a thing anymore, as secularism is such a big thing.
I feel that religious people in Australia need to stick together. We all have similar concerns and outlooks, and the fostering of ecumenical ties, both on an inter-faith and inter-denominational level is necessary for the promotion of peace. Also, the Muslims are doing the hard yards at the moment in terms of Islamic dress. They are out there defending our religious freedoms by asserting their own. People of other faiths need to get behind them.
In the Australian context then, its just bad manners to talk about who's saved and who's not, and as for sheep stealing, that is just inimical to the task. I have my understanding within my traditions, others have their understandings within theirs. Let's have a cup of tea.
I work with a Christian guy who grew up in Sri Lanka, ethnically part of the Buddhist population. Another worker is from Nepal and is Hindu. One day they were working together and she was singing a Hindu song that happened to mention that the Sri Lankan's people were devils in the lyrics. He said, "You know I'm Sri Lankan right?". She puts her hands over her mouth and says, "Oh My God!". They collapse laughing. It's a song about a war against a Sri Lankan King way back on the other side of History's edge. I bloody love that story.
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
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Posted
quote:
Only minority, marginal, emergent Christianity, liberal Judaism and probably some Muslim heretics have been able to move on from the surly bonds of the Bronze Age. We have to swim in the 99% mass damnationist shoals.
I see your point here. A situation very well dealt with in "The Subversion of Christianity" by Jaques Ellul.
quote:
The big Tees including the big O are bigger minded in this regard but carved in patriarchal stone. They've outgrown the damnationist tendency. Protestantism embraced it and hasn't let go.
I am perplexed though by your pre-penultimate sentence. What are the big Tees and the big O?
I'm not asking if my bum looks big in this, but just for fear my ignorance is showing. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
I am perplexed though by your pre-penultimate sentence. What are the big Tees and the big O?
I'm not asking if my bum looks big in this, but just for fear my ignorance is showing.
I think he is talking about Tradition (Roman Catholicism) and Orthodoxy.
But it is hard to be sure. Only Martin knows what Martin is talking about much of the time.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Rdr. It's not you. It's me. It's not your ignorance, which isn't showing. It's mine. Always. My apologies. Big Tees: big traditions - usually just Big T, Roman Catholic (rather than Reformed (Catholic - I've sat in both denominations' services, they're virtually identical, I've sat in a Marian Anglican one, a High Anglican with a swinging thurible, an Anglo-Catholic - all on a pretty narrow spectrum, even the 'low', Evangelical Anglican) = 'Protestant') and Orthodox (Catholic).
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unum Solum:
I was thinking today that that it appears that for many Christians if your not on board your lost, and so you need to get on board and evangelism is thus important. It’s even worse for you if you profess some other faith as it’s much further back.
Interestingly, though, since Western Christianity has been in retreat for quite a long time it's obviously not that good at evangelism.
One difference with Sikhism and Hinduism, ISTM, is that adherents have high expectations of their children following in the religion. Most religious groups that have done and will do well in the future are those with a strong birthrate and a high rate of faith transmission from parents to children.
After a certain point, the conversion of outsiders almost never makes up for the lack of faith transmission in families, so small Western families who are unable to transmit their faith to their children will cease to maintain their religious success, regardless of how much lip service they pay to evangelism.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Only 1:1000 people convert to anything.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
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Posted
[Martin60] Ahh, it is coming clearer now. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Only 1:1000 people convert to anything.
Even the Bible mentions the difficulties of making converts!
Some sociologists have said that the importance of evangelism often lies not so much in the number of converts made, but in the reinforcement of group solidarity and commitment that the process induces in the participants. Congregations that can maintain a strong sense of togetherness and common purpose will have an advantage over those that don't.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Interestingly, though, since Western Christianity has been in retreat for quite a long time it's obviously not that good at evangelism.
One difference with Sikhism and Hinduism, ISTM, is that adherents have high expectations of their children following in the religion. Most religious groups that have done and will do well in the future are those with a strong birthrate and a high rate of faith transmission from parents to children.
After a certain point, the conversion of outsiders almost never makes up for the lack of faith transmission in families, so small Western families who are unable to transmit their faith to their children will cease to maintain their religious success, regardless of how much lip service they pay to evangelism.
That echoes my view that the decline of Christianity in the Western world is from within. Many of us were so pissed off by the repressions/restrictions/general authoritarianism of our religious upbringing that we no longer "practice", though we may still, to a degree, believe.
And I'm with Simontoad in his attitude to the various Christian sects. The more flexible, the better.
The elderly teaching nuns, many of whom had entered their order before or during WW1, used to tell us that one thing which did most to keep religion alive was persecution, viz. Roman Catholicism in England under Elizabeth 1.
If I have a quarrel with the RC church in which I grew up, it's with the way it handles itself on earth.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Pluralism does force different churches and religions to tolerate each other's existence, but ironically, it can also lead to the creation of some very strict religious movements. The American context of total religious freedom shows how this works. A free market forces groups to differentiate themselves from each other, and to expand to fill the niches available to them. As a result, you'll always get conservative groups and more moderate groups.
In Europe, however, some commentators argue that the presence of state (or quasi state) churches has inhibited the long-term success of alternative religious movements, including the more conservative ones. One of the best ways to ensure the dominance of very moderate churches is therefore to have an established church that's funded and maintained by the state, as in Scandinavia.
Of course, if the churches don't have an evangelistic church culture (or good faith transmission to children) few people will go to church. But if this isn't viewed as a theological or an institutional problem them it won't give rise to very much anxiety.
[ 18. February 2018, 14:46: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Islam and its strong hostility
IME, Islam is very much like Christianity in that the hostility of its adherents is more bound to culture than religion.
But, carry on, don't let me stop the phobia.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I think the compulsion to draw lines between “ us and them” also depends to some extent on whether one’s primary impression of God is as a gracious parent who loves us all and means us all well ( to borrow a phrase from a theologian) or as a righteous judge.. Some schools of Christian thought emphasize one over the other; and frankly some people’s psyches, for a variety of reasons, are drawn to one image over the other.
Re other religions proselytizing: It is worth noting that both Hindus and Buddhists have had a history of trying to convert others — didn’t Bali become Hindu because of Hindu missionaries centuries ago? I thought I’d read that. And of course modern popularizers of Hinduism for non- Indians, although they have been controversial at home.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
I see little worth in converting anyone to anything. I see inestimable worth in assisting individuals to “come to themselves” (as the prodigal son did -- in my understanding, knowing him self inside out as it were)). And in that coming to self – to knowing who they really are, with or without all the baggage of the past, and they then come to knowing where their connectedness lies. And that connectedness leads them on the path right for them. I certainly hope to come to heaven, and meet there many varied folk, who came by varied paths, and we see each other as God’s beloved children.
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Islam and its strong hostility
IME, Islam is very much like Christianity in that the hostility of its adherents is more bound to culture than religion.
But, carry on, don't let me stop the phobia.
What phobia? A religion without an adherent is dead. I was left running a multimillion pound business on Friday whilst my MD and colleagues all went for jumu'ah.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Islam and its strong hostility
IME, Islam is very much like Christianity in that the hostility of its adherents is more bound to culture than religion.
But, carry on, don't let me stop the phobia.
What phobia? A religion without an adherent is dead. I was left running a multimillion pound business on Friday whilst my MD and colleagues all went for jumu'ah.
So what hostility are you on about, then?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Leo: I agree.
Also, in my theological neighborhood we’re taught that it is the Holy Spirit that brings a person to faith. You or I can no more convert someone than we can reanimate a corpse. Is it possible that the Holy Spirit would use us as an agent in doing this work? Sure. But the fear- driven compulsion to make the sale, to get in the last word, to bully or beseech or guilt someone into “ making a decision,” isn’t there.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Re other religions proselytizing: It is worth noting that both Hindus and Buddhists have had a history of trying to convert others — didn’t Bali become Hindu because of Hindu missionaries centuries ago? I thought I’d read that. And of course modern popularizers of Hinduism for non- Indians, although they have been controversial at home.
That's correct. Angkor Wat started off as a Hindu temple. Some of the indigenous people of southern and central Vietnam are Hindu. Southeast Asia was littered with Hindu kingdoms. Proselytizing was more of a top down approach. Similar, ISTM, to the spread of Christianity in parts of northern and eastern Europe in Late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages. Hinduism allowed local rulers to assume a mantle of semi-divinity for them and their lineage.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Islam and its strong hostility
IME, Islam is very much like Christianity in that the hostility of its adherents is more bound to culture than religion.
But, carry on, don't let me stop the phobia.
What phobia? A religion without an adherent is dead. I was left running a multimillion pound business on Friday whilst my MD and colleagues all went for jumu'ah.
So what hostility are you on about, then?
Religion is hostile. It's a product of culture. The religions of the Book are, by the vast majority of their adherents, hostile. As they are in themselves. The texts, religions, culture, peoples, minds, natures are hostile. Full of redemptive violence in weakness and ignorance. You are. I am. Here. Now. Full of piss and vinegar.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Re other religions proselytizing: It is worth noting that both Hindus and Buddhists have had a history of trying to convert others — didn’t Bali become Hindu because of Hindu missionaries centuries ago? I thought I’d read that. And of course modern popularizers of Hinduism for non- Indians, although they have been controversial at home.
That's correct. Angkor Wat started off as a Hindu temple. Some of the indigenous people of southern and central Vietnam are Hindu. Southeast Asia was littered with Hindu kingdoms. Proselytizing was more of a top down approach. Similar, ISTM, to the spread of Christianity in parts of northern and eastern Europe in Late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages. Hinduism allowed local rulers to assume a mantle of semi-divinity for them and their lineage.
It is appropriate that Prester John made these observations about the Far East
And Martin, it's people that are full of piss and anger, especially Ben Stokes. I've seen the footage.
[ 19. February 2018, 09:08: Message edited by: simontoad ]
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
It may be that the people who are most eager to convert others to their own beliefs are atheists.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
It may be that the people who are most eager to convert others to their own beliefs are atheists.
Vegetarians.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
It may be that the people who are most eager to convert others to their own beliefs are atheists.
Vegetarians.
Vegetarian atheists.
To be fair my son and niece both fir that description and neither ever tries to convert anyone.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Vegetarians.
IME, most vegetarians are pretty chill. Vegans, on the other hand...
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
IME, most vegetarians are pretty chill. Vegans, on the other hand...
There's nothing quite like a vegan who believes that the dairy industry is the font of all evil.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
or the fussbudget who worries about trace DNA of dead chickens on the grill before their tofurkey gets barbequed. It's not an allergy it's a choice.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Vegetarian cannibals.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Judaism is another of the big 3 but this seems to be more tied up into ethnicity (who mum and dad are), Judaism seems to be much more than a religion.
Judaism is actually traced through the mother's lineage.
I agree with Luherchick, the OP seems to be assuming we the Christian God is a judging God. That is not any God I know off. Yes, if asked, I will testify of Jesus, and I witness to the Good News, but it is not about us vs them because if we try to divide us from them, we will always find Jesus on the other side.
For me, it is more like a beggar telling another beggar where to find food.
[ 20. February 2018, 02:56: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
Mind you, assuming that the Christian God is a judging God is kind of to be expected, given what his self-appointed PR people say. Also, history. At least in Europe.
The inquisition, here we go, the inquisition, what a show, I'll bet you're wishing that we'd go away. But the inquisition's here and it's here to (ba-ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba) - pause and swivel - stay!
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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Unum Solum
Shipmate
# 18904
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Judaism is another of the big 3 but this seems to be more tied up into ethnicity (who mum and dad are), Judaism seems to be much more than a religion.
Judaism is actually traced through the mother's lineage.
I agree with Luherchick, the OP seems to be assuming we the Christian God is a judging God. That is not any God I know off. Yes, if asked, I will testify of Jesus, and I witness to the Good News, but it is not about us vs them because if we try to divide us from them, we will always find Jesus on the other side.
For me, it is more like a beggar telling another beggar where to find food.
Actually Gramps I believe the exact opposite, God judges no one because God is Love.
Man judges everyone!
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I will not say do not weep for not all tears are an evil. - Gandalf
Posts: 53 | From: Auckland, New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2018
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
or the fussbudget who worries about trace DNA of dead chickens on the grill before their tofurkey gets barbequed. It's not an allergy it's a choice.
Not taking a side, because I don't really have one. But FYI it's an ethical and/or religious matter for some people, and a health tenet for others.
And, if you're trying to avoid a particular food, it can be hard to deal with even a faint taste of it. OTOH, guests at a barbecue would get a large dose of the scent of anything cooked.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
For me, it is more like a beggar telling another beggar where to find food.
That's an old Jesus People saying: "Christianity is one beggar telling another where to find bread". Though I don't think they came up with it. One of the Niebuhrs, maybe?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
simontoad--
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
]It is appropriate that Prester John made these observations about the Far East
Now all we need are the Queen of the West and the abbot of Shangri-La.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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