|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: What the actual fuck, France?
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
This is a news item about men with guns forcing a woman to undress in public.
Men with guns.
Forcing a woman.
To undress in public.
To cap it off: they are policemen, and the law supports them.
What the actual fuck, France? Quite aside from the mindfuckingly misogynist concept of literally policing what women wear, in what twisted mockery of logic does this kind of overt persecution of members of a religion make it less likely that other members of that religion will attack you? Christ, I thought Britain was getting bad in terms of intolerance, but this takes the entire bakery aisle at Sainsbury's.
Everyone connected with or supportive of these new laws or their enforcement is an utter wankstained shitbadger who should be banned from going within 500 yards of any civilised society, and ideally left in a small box with an angry and diseased bobcat with sharpened claws. Naked. While being lovingly basted in a mixture of lemon juice, salt and deep heat.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
The speedo regulation is another French practice.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Outrageous, maddening and counter-productive. Stupidity and bigotry.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
I wondered elsewhere if those cops were particularly proud of their jobs lately. They certainly seemed less than enthusiastic in the pics.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Oh dear, I was hoping y'all would fail to notice this.
Firstly, just to be clear, this is (for the moment) not a national law but a bylaw that has been introduced by city councils, mostly on the French Riviera, which is notorious for right and far-right councils.
The law was challenged before the local administrative tribunal, which upheld it, and is currently before the Council of State, the final domestic court of appeal for this type of law. Their verdict is due tomorrow.
If the Council of State upholds the present ruling, I fully expect it to be challenged before the European Court of Human Rights.
However, that's about as mitigating as I can be.
The really dumb things about this to my mind are:
- it's shameless electioneering pandering to racist prejudice and far-right voters. Nicolas Sarkozy has just announced his candidacy for the 2017 presidential elections, and weighed in on the debate saying the burkini is a symbol of radicalisation. He clearly hasn't read the Council of Europe's guidelines that urge a distinction to be made between religious practices and violent extremist behaviour
- it utterly utterly conflates being a Muslim with being a potential terrorist. I can't think of a better way to turn more Muslims into potential terrorists.
More broadly, it shows the extent to which France (or at least a certain segment of it) is living in complete denial of the actual multiculturalism that exists on its territory. The contrast with neighbouring UK could not be sharper.
What really pisses me off in this is that it is politicising my faith at high speed, leftwards.
On the other hand, I have no problem with what you call "speedo" regulations, which apply at pools not on beaches, for precisely the reasons outlined in the linked article. The argument is on grounds of hygiene.
Finally, to provide a sense of balance, last week at my local pool, which is open-air in the summer and adjoins a park, six police descended to admonish a girl sunbathing on her front with her bikini top undone, forcing her and her friends to clear up the litter in the surrounding area before leaving.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
|
Posted
I'm used to seeing Catholic nuns at the beach in full habit. Are they not allowed either?
The poor Muslim women! I imagine the main reason they're at the beach at all is to supervise children, because swimming and sunning in the burkini does not look fun to me. I would think a better idea would be a "women and children only," section where all the women could wear standard swimming suits if they wished to.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
That photo, of the cops surrounding the woman on the beach, is utterly nauseating. Apologies for the godwin, but I was reminded immediately of wartime photos of Nazis surrounding Jews.
What the fuck are French politicians playing at? This isn't a game. They are throwing petrol on the fire, they are inciting the radicals, and could help produce a race/religious war.
Well, IS leaders will be chuckling over this, and that photo will go around the Muslim world and the Arab world. Fuck, oh, fuck.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm used to seeing Catholic nuns at the beach in full habit. Are they not allowed either?
They are not associated with radicalisation, goes the argument (this catholic-versus muslims conflict has already come up in terms of what acceptable wear for prison chaplains is, by the way).
quote:
I would think a better idea would be a "women and children only," section where all the women could wear standard swimming suits if they wished to.
Think again.
[ 25. August 2016, 19:48: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
The irony is that the French politicians are using the same logic as IS. IS say that Westerners are guilty of crimes perpetrated by some Westerners, (e.g. Blair and Bush), but here is the argument that Muslims in Muslim dress are somehow associated with terror.
Oh, logic fail, morality fail, humanity fail, peace fail.
I suppose the French right want war, or at any rate, more conflict.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose the French right want war, or at any rate, more conflict.
There are some on the left making the case too, including the current prime minister.
I think the mainstream right, and some on the left, are calculating that only a semblance of "act tough on terrorism" will prevent Marine Le Pen winning in 2017, even if the actions are actually counterproductive.
I also think the word "radicalisation" has been extremely abused (as explained above) and so there is genuine confusion in many people's minds.
I would think few Paris politicians have actually sat down and talked to street-level Muslims; they don't have any opportunities to meet them.
The fact is that the current state of affairs is pushing France's particular model of secularism and the "Republican Ideal" to its limits.
[ 25. August 2016, 19:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
At the risk of being purgatorial, who do French Muslims vote for? There must be enough of them to form a sizeable voting bloc.
[ 25. August 2016, 20:14: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
On the other hand, I have no problem with what you call "speedo" regulations, which apply at pools not on beaches, for precisely the reasons outlined in the linked article. The argument is on grounds of hygiene.
I'm not sure how the cut of your swimming costume is related to the hygiene issue.
I agree that you don't want people carrying dirt into the pool on street clothes, but that's not related to the cut of one's swimsuit.
I've never seen anyone wandering around town wearing a pair of swimming shorts (which are worn by very nearly all male swimmers in the US) and I've never seen anyone swimming in our public pool in a par of non-swimming shorts. I have seen plenty of people arriving at an outdoor public pool wearing bikinis and carrying a towel.
I've also seen plenty of people swimming in an outdoor pool wearing UV-blocking swim shirts. Are they banned in France? I can't believe it's better for the pool for someone to slather themselves in sunscreen than to wear a swim shirt.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
If anything at all, mostly socialist. But a lot of young people are too disillusioned and abstain.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I imagine the main reason they're at the beach at all is to supervise children, because swimming and sunning in the burkini does not look fun to me.
I have had a few holidays in Muslim-majority countries, and have seen plenty of women in burkinis. They all seemed to be having just as much fun as their far-more-naked compatriots.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Among the articles among the many I stopped reading referred to 2 things I'd not read before about this sort of thing. First that the burka isn't really Islamic, it's really Arab and/or Wahabi. Along with stuff about the Arabization of Islam and decrying it. Second, that religion freedom is not absolute and must be subordinated to others sometimes. Like I say I stopped reading.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Second, that religion freedom is not absolute and must be subordinated to others sometimes. Like I say I stopped reading.
Maybe you should start reading again. At least then you might understand the historic and cultural roots of the opposition to visible expressions of religious affiliation in France, particularly non-Catholic ones.
I'm not saying this history justifies anything, but it helps to understand why things have played out so differently here to in, say, Canada.
(The cheap hotel deal we got in Toronto once turned out to be a) partly because it was not far from Jane and Finch b) because it was being used mostly for a Muslim conference. We had the pool virtually to ourselves).
[ 25. August 2016, 20:55: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I agree that you don't want people carrying dirt into the pool on street clothes, but that's not related to the cut of one's swimsuit. (...) I have seen plenty of people arriving at an outdoor public pool wearing bikinis and carrying a towel (...) I've also seen plenty of people swimming in an outdoor pool wearing UV-blocking swim shirts. Are they banned in France?
The fact is that the French have some quite fixed ideas about what you can and can't wear to swim. You won't see people in France arriving at a public pool in a bikini; they will at least be wearing something on top of it, top and bottom. And however much people strip off at the beach, they can be fined for not wearing a T-shirt off the beach, including in places like Nice. I've never seen a UV-blocking swim shirt at a pool and I would think it quite likely you'd be at least challenged if seen wearing one. The "speedo" practice varies depending on the pool, I'd say.
The fact is that there is a cultural aspect to all this. The article no prophet linked to goes on to mention the Blue Lagoon in Iceland, where you can wear whatever costume you like but you will indeed be required to shower in the nude before going in. As a frequent first destination after the airport, it's definitely cultural immersion at the deep end.
[ 25. August 2016, 21:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I wondered elsewhere if those cops were particularly proud of their jobs lately. They certainly seemed less than enthusiastic in the pics.
Great legs, though. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
cornflower
Shipmate
# 13349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm used to seeing Catholic nuns at the beach in full habit. Are they not allowed either?
The poor Muslim women! I imagine the main reason they're at the beach at all is to supervise children, because swimming and sunning in the burkini does not look fun to me. I would think a better idea would be a "women and children only," section where all the women could wear standard swimming suits if they wished to.
Well, I read that at that particular beach, nuns aren't allowed to wear their habit. So I'm not sure if the bylaw is because of France being a secularist country or whether they ban the nun's habits so as not to be unfair to the Muslims, or quite what. It all seems crazy to me.
Posts: 111 | From: uk | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
I can't bring myself to look at the article, especially because of the picture. Did they make her get naked? (Don't know if anything is worn under a burkini.)
I confess that, when I first heard France didn't like burkinis on the beach, my knee-jerk "Americans don't usually allow legal nude beaches" reaction was "Great--you can be naked on the beach, but not covered up".
I presume the basis is burkini = Muslim = terrorist, plus secularization. I don't know what it's like to be steeped in France's style of secularization. (The US has a weird mix of religious trappings; secularization; unholy mixing of religious and political power; attempts at mutual respect; individuals trying hard to live good, compassionate lives, religious or not; and "live and let live *over THERE*--but you may be going to hell".)
As someone said upthread, there's probably distrust of multi-culturalism in the mix. If you're going to freak out about wearing a hijab scarf, then a burkini would probably have you apoplectic or cowering under your bed. (There've been all sorts of US incidents of trouble over hijab, etc. And our police and various levels of gov't do bad and stupid things.)
But...you'd think France was trying to recruit volunteers for ISIS.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cornflower
Shipmate
# 13349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I imagine the main reason they're at the beach at all is to supervise children, because swimming and sunning in the burkini does not look fun to me.
I have had a few holidays in Muslim-majority countries, and have seen plenty of women in burkinis. They all seemed to be having just as much fun as their far-more-naked compatriots.
Yes, I can perhaps imagine that...look at the all-covering swimming costumes the late Victorians, or was it Edwardian, women, wore for swimming at the beach.
Posts: 111 | From: uk | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Yes, I thought of the old bathing costumes, too. Maybe we need to bring back bathing machines? (Little huts on carts. Person would be towed to the water's edge, then come out the front door of the hut into the water, so they wouldn't be seen.)
I'm thinking that a lot of non-Muslim girls/women might like burkinis, too--once the stigma has faded a bit. Could help cover up aging, body changes, scars, stretch marks...over/underweight, with the right cut of burkini...and a lot of women just preferred to be more covered.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a beach where there was a spectrum of dress and coveredness, nobody fussed, and it was all ok?
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cornflower
Shipmate
# 13349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yes, I thought of the old bathing costumes, too. Maybe we need to bring back bathing machines? (Little huts on carts. Person would be towed to the water's edge, then come out the front door of the hut into the water, so they wouldn't be seen.)
I'm thinking that a lot of non-Muslim girls/women might like burkinis, too--once the stigma has faded a bit. Could help cover up aging, body changes, scars, stretch marks...over/underweight, with the right cut of burkini...and a lot of women just preferred to be more covered.
Wouldn't it be cool to have a beach where there was a spectrum of dress and coveredness, nobody fussed, and it was all ok?
Yes, it certainly would. And because of those reasons you mentioned above, when I go swimming, whether on a beach or in a swimming pool, I wear a swimsuit, plus a pair of shorts (lightweight, not too short, not too long,) but it would be a clean pair of shorts at a swimming pool, not something I'd worn on the street.
Perhaps one shouldn't be bothered at the thought of people noticing all one's ghastly imperfections (plus I have psoriasis which looks bad enough)but ah well.
Posts: 111 | From: uk | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
If you're going to freak out about wearing a hijab scarf, then a burkini would probably have you apoplectic or cowering under your bed. (There've been all sorts of US incidents of trouble over hijab, etc. And our police and various levels of gov't do bad and stupid things.)
I was at a waterpark at the weekend, and saw a few (presumably) Muslim ladies wearing covering garments and headscarves. The only issue I had with it was that their headscarves were, well, scarves rather than the burkini hood things, and having several feet of strangulation hazard flapping around on a waterslide didn't seem like the brightest of ideas.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
|
Posted
I think the scarves look dangerous on bikes and amusement park rides, too. I keep thinking of Isadora Duncan. I guess I'm the only one, but I think one of the great things about swimming is feeling the water against your skin and the freedom of bare limbs in the buoyancy of the water.
Muslim women are allowed to wear anything they want to when they are at home with other women, so I think they would appreciate a man-free place where they could swim and sun in small clothing.
I really hope people don't start suggesting that I wear a Victorian swimsuit because they don't want to look at my ageing skin.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
(Cough.)
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Yes indeed, Kelly.
In the 70s-80s there was tremendous social pressure on women to be topless on a French beach, to assert their "liberation". The trend over the past 30 years for women has been towards far more diversity of uncoveredness, which is surely symptomatic of more actual liberation.
I think we have terrible trouble getting over our own subcultural blind spots; people within groups that argue in favour of freedom and diversity often end up wearing the same "uniform".
I recall the open mockery of a group of male church leaders supposedly devoted to grace and freedom when one of their number dared to turn up to a meeting in a jacket and tie.
But the people most likely to be stigmatised if they don't conform are undoubtedly women. You just can't win, can you? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
Aah les brave francais!. 4 Policemen vs one woman on a beach.
No wonder the French caved in so quickly in two World Wars. Germans have much more frightening weapons than Burkinis and the odds weren't quite as good then as now.
The level of casual racism in France always appals me when travelling with friends whose skin colour is rather different from mine
[ 26. August 2016, 06:31: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
|
Posted
Some policemen on the Riviera were interviewed on the radio yesterday; they are doing what they have been told to do because that’s their job, but are far from convinced that it’s right.
I live in a very stupid country. The woman who was asked to undress wasn’t even wearing a burkini. She was wearing leggings, a tunic and a scarf. (Goldenkey: they didn’t make her take all her clothes off. I think she uncovered her arms.)
I kind of want to organise a protest where a whole load of non-Muslim women, preferably with very fragile skin, turn up on the beach wearing burkinis and then claim that it’s not religious attire. Personally as a non-Muslim but very pale-skinned woman who goes scarlet after about thirty seconds sun exposure, I would totally wear one (probably minus the hood). Apparently the inventor of the burkini, an Australian lady, has recently seen a massive upspike in orders, mostly from women who aren’t Muslims but just want to protect their skin.
And now for a feminist rant: you know why women were asked to change their dress? Because of MEN behaving badly. It all kicked off when some men started taking pictures, without permission, of burkini-clad women who were minding their own business on the beach. The men who were with them picked a fight of the “why are you taking pictures of my sister” variety, and there was an altercation between all the aforementioned people of the male gender. The burkini-clad women had little or nothing to do with it. The solution to this argument between men? Policing women’s bodies. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I kind of want to organise a protest where a whole load of non-Muslim women, preferably with very fragile skin, turn up on the beach wearing burkinis and then claim that it’s not religious attire.
I had had this very same idea, but you just know it's not going to get the sympathy it deserves in the prevailing climate
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Yes, I thought of the old bathing costumes, too. Maybe we need to bring back bathing machines? (Little huts on carts. Person would be towed to the water's edge, then come out the front door of the hut into the water, so they wouldn't be seen.)
You need to read "Sheds on the Seashore". I've just finished it and it's much more interesting than you might think!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
In relation to fragile skin, my sister-in-law has had skin cancer, and she has been ranting and raving about this story. If she goes anywhere in the sun, let alone a beach, she wears leggings, a big shirt with long sleeves, and a very big hat.
On the other hand, she's white, and she's not a murdering Muslima!
I can't believe that some politicians are saying that the burkini is a symbol of Islamist radicalism. The only people this pleases are presumably white racists, and IS.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Just noticed the point by la vie en rouge. Yes, women's bodies are so often the site of ideological conflict, forgive the jargon. It's not that long ago, of course, that bikinis were banned in some countries, and I vaguely remember the Pope fulminating against them.
Too much flesh, sisters, but hello, today, Muslim women are not showing enough flesh! Please, undress madam, while these armed policemen watch. The gas ovens are over there.
[ 26. August 2016, 08:54: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The only people this pleases are presumably white racists, and IS.
There are plenty of people it will please who would not consider themselves to be racists at all, but who feel the national identity they are used to is under threat.
This is because the concept of national identity in France, and particularly the "Republican Ideal", is not a good one when it comes to racial integration.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The only people this pleases are presumably white racists, and IS.
There are plenty of people it will please who would not consider themselves to be racists at all, but who feel the national identity they are used to is under threat.
This is because the concept of national identity in France, and particularly the "Republican Ideal", is not a good one when it comes to racial integration.
OK, they are white racists with a good cover story.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
That's more like it. And it's a lot easier than many white people would like to think to be in that category.
Unawares.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
That's more like it. And it's a lot easier than many white people would like to think to be in that category.
Unawares.
There is always a balance to be struck. I see nothing wrong with a culture having values, and defending them, thought this necessarily means having boundaries and creating some kind of exclusion for those who will not live within them. The problem comes with a lazy set of assumptions as to what those boundaries are and who is outside them.
This is something which, in my opinion, the UK spent a very long time getting wilfully wrong the other way: we have been too lazy to imagine, as a culture, what borders we might have and how we might want to defend them, so we have polarised the situation disastrously, with one faction decrying the concept of borders, blind to the cultural vacuum they were creating, which had the effect of creating the space for the opposite faction to foment various forms of paranoid exclusory fantasy.
The biological and social meanings of culture are, in my opinion, intimately linked. No cell can survive without a membrane around it which performs some kind of filtering function. The same is true of societies: they become by rapid turns empty and non-existent if they are too complacent to imagine their own boundaries.
[ 26. August 2016, 09:30: Message edited by: ThunderBunk ]
--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I'm not sure I understand all that, but I was waiting for a UK resident to observe that the situation is indeed the exact opposite in the UK. Instead of a Republican Ideal you have a plethora of competing, overlapping, non-explicit identities.
It's just that our model of "integration" looks closer to catastrophic failure than yours - for the minute.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Oh good grief, what is wrong with this man?
You're late. It's electioneering. He thinks it's the only way to beat Marine Le Pen and is trying to capture some of her potential voters.
quote:
An excellent protest, making exactly the point. Islamophobia is not freedom. Women's bodies are their own and it's entirely up to them what they wear, covered or uncovered.
Would this kind of protest were happening in France.
You're late again.
I fear it would not attract the same degree of sympathy, not least because we've had more terrorist attacks lately and because people confuse religious practice with violent extremism more readily than in the UK, all the more so in an atmosphere of tension.
[ 26. August 2016, 10:22: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
That's ok, France, we'll make allowances. We know that the moral code for clothing on a french beach is that which allows oggling. No oggling = not moral beachwear.
As many men have also recently found, refusing to show off your man-boobs and speedos instantly leads to fully dressed and fully armed police surrounding you and insisting that you strip until you've met the beach moral code. So this is clearly a non-sexist rule! That thought has definitively been disproven.
Over in racist post-Brexit Britain, where we rarely are affected by Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, where we've had to close all those pesky segregation units due to the lack of fundamentalist preachers and where integration and immigration is not an issue - you remember us, right? waving - I have to report that I was recently on a beach and witnessed several women paddling in the sea who had their heads covered, some who might even have been Muslim.
The other day I was walking along a street and saw someone walking the other way in a full Burka.
We fully agree with France's secular clothing code, because it is clearly much more effective than Britain's live-and-let-live approach. British society would clearly be a whole lot less racist if we were more like you!
Oh. Just a second.
[ 26. August 2016, 10:42: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
|
Posted
From Boogie's article, quote:
The Nice mayor’s office denied that the woman had been forced to remove clothing, telling Agence France-Presse that she was showing police the swimsuit she was wearing under her tunic.
In the picture I saw she was seated and taking off her flowing top leaving leggings and a short sleeved top underneath. I assume she had the option to leave the beach if she hadn't wanted to remove anything. I think the "Police force woman to strip," headlines were exaggerated toward our lurid imaginations.
Here in the U.S., at pools, lakes and my local YMCA, I'm used to always seeing "Swimsuits only," signs. I usually don't have one, and consequently, haven't been swimming for about 40 years. Also, "No dogs." snif.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
In the picture I saw she was seated and taking off her flowing top leaving leggings and a short sleeved top underneath. I assume she had the option to leave the beach if she hadn't wanted to remove anything.
Correct, you are assuming.
quote:
I think the "Police force woman to strip," headlines were exaggerated toward our lurid imaginations.
Right, because armed police going along the beach, finding a woman wearing the wrong clothing and then escorting her off the beach would obviously be far less embarrassing and less of an issue.
Don't tell me, this woman should be glad she didn't get arrested and held in solitary confinement as a potential terrorist.
Glad we got that sorted out.
quote:
Here in the U.S., at pools, lakes and my local YMCA, I'm used to always seeing "Swimsuits only," signs. I usually don't have one, and consequently, haven't been swimming for about 40 years. Also, "No dogs." snif.
Then your local pools, lakes and my YMCA are fucking stupid, possibly dangerous. Have they never heard of skin cancer? Durr.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
I think the "Police force woman to strip," headlines were exaggerated toward our lurid imaginations.
Right, because armed police going along the beach, finding a woman wearing the wrong clothing and then escorting her off the beach would obviously be far less embarrassing and less of an issue.
That's correct. I think she would have found being escorted off the beach less embarrassing, and less against her religious principles, than being forced to strip naked as some people were reading those headlines. YMMV
quote:
Don't tell me, this woman should be glad she didn't get arrested and held in solitary confinement as a potential terrorist.
No I wont tell you that. Sorry, Cheeseman.
I'm sure that wont stop you from pretending I did though, so you can continue your favorite hobby of being Most Outraged Person About Everything!
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
Notre nouvelle devise: Pas de fraternité, pas d'égalité, pas de liberté.
_______________________________________
*our new motto: no brotherhood, no equality, no freedom
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
That's correct. I think she would have found being escorted off the beach less embarrassing, and less against her religious principles, than being forced to strip naked as some people were reading those headlines. YMMV
Oh yes, I forgot you're a fucking imbecile.
Slip slap slop.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
|
Posted
Well I didn't forget how full of hatred you are, always looking for a way to release it that will appear to be in defense of the downtrodden.
I don't like this rule any better than anyone else here, but it is a beach rule on a luxurious resort beach, it's not children starving to death in Syrian refugee camps.
I was just pointing out that it's not a case of police forcing women to strip naked as Golden Key had feared, and it's definitely not a reason to bring out nasty, stereotypical remarks about the French people being cowards.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't like this rule any better than anyone else here, but it is a beach rule on a luxurious resort beach, it's not children starving to death in Syrian refugee camps.
Stupid rules should be disobeyed. People of goodwill should stand up for people who are getting abused for their clothing choices, particularly when they're good sense choices such as covering up on a beach.
But your fucking-stupid mileage may vary.
quote:
I was just pointing out that it's not a case of police forcing women to strip naked as Golden Key had feared, and it's definitely not a reason to bring out nasty, stereotypical remarks about the French people being cowards.
The police stood there with guns on the beach until the woman removed clothing. Endof.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I also note that this is not simply a rule on a particular beach (which would be stupid enough), it is a rule set up by particular mayors in particular towns solely to embarrass and harass women from a particular faith. As noted above, men and other women are unaffected by this rule.
And, to top it all, Sarkozy is today reportedly calling for a nationwide rule of this kind.
If that isn't a betrayal of the French ideal of liberty, then I'm not entirely sure what would be. It appears that woman are free to expose their flesh on a beach but are not free not to.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If that isn't a betrayal of the French ideal of liberty, then I'm not entirely sure what would be.
The argument put forward is that allowing burkinis and veils and the like will create pressure on other Muslim women to adopt similar dress, which would be an infringement of their liberty.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
