Thread: I Will Not Obey Board: Hell / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
This happened.
This really, actually, truly happened.
It happened here.
We can't deny it. The next leader of my country is someone who embodies every single thing I have ever fought against.
I thought we were better than this. After all this fight and struggle...I believed in America. Still. Somehow.
I thought it couldn't happen. That Erdogan, Duterte, Le Pen, Farage, Putin, all your tinhorn dictators and facists, they couldn't happen here. We were land of the free, home of the brave. Not here.
I thought justice would prevail. That there were some things still unacceptable in civilized society. That hate and prejudice were fading. That "grab them by the pussy" was something unacceptable. That we, as Americans, could still recoil in horror at something, anything.
No.
We can't.
It happened here.
They tell me I'm studying law. What law will be left to practice? Separation of powers, dual sovereignty, a government of limited and enumerated powers, equal protection under the law, substantive due process, one person—one vote, freedoms of speech, press, assembly, religion, all these things we couldn't question because they were who we were—we chose someone who promised to violate all of them.
And people voted him in because he promised to do it.
No.
We are better than this.
America is more than its government. More than its leaders. More, even, than those who wish to crush their fellow citizens. This cannot, will not, be how this ends.
We survived the Gilded Age. Survived slavery, the Civil War, Lochner, and Bladensburg. The rights we now enjoy had to be won by someone; now we'll have to defend them.
We will not yield to tyranny.
I Will Not Obey.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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If we were better than this, Donald Trump would not be giving a victory speech on national television right now.
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
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I'm thinking of entering the ship's Celebrity Death Pool for the first time and putting all those politicians on the list. I don't wish them dead, but far better celebrities have left us in 2016. At least they didn't live to see this day ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
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Fuck all you Illary voters.
Fuck you all very much.
Eat shit and die.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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Right back atcha, romanlion. Nice of you to find the appropriate venue for your bullshit, which you've been spewing in Purgatory for months.
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Fuck all you Illary voters.
Fuck you all very much.
Eat shit and die.
And the thing scarier and more obnoxiously bile inducing than Trump himself is his blinded, fuckwitted supporters. Well illustrated fucktard.
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Fuck all you Illary voters.
Fuck you all very much.
Eat shit and die.
And the thing scarier and more obnoxiously bile inducing than Trump himself is his blinded, fuckwitted supporters. Well illustrated fucktard.
Fuck you, cunt.
i didn't vote for him.
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Fuck all you Illary voters.
Fuck you all very much.
Eat shit and die.
Go dip your scrotum in battery acid you illiterate fuckweasel.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Fuck you, cunt.
Cunt? Seriously? After all the sexism, you think this is okay. Just when I thought my opinion of you couldn't get any lower.
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Fuck all you Illary voters.
Fuck you all very much.
Eat shit and die.
Go dip your scrotum in battery acid you illiterate fuckweasel.
You lose, bitch...
Fuck off and draw your last, if you care about the rest of us...
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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Why do you post on the Ship, romanlion? I really do wonder. Do you really have nowhere else to vent your bile?
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
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It is as if the sun rose this morning,and it is a black sun.
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Why do you post on the Ship, romanlion? I really do wonder. Do you really have nowhere else to vent your bile?
What would the place be without me?
Oh yeah....
You...
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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Brexit x3? Indeed!
You know what? Suddenly, upon waking up this morning, Boris Johnson as foreign sec doesn't seem so bad on the scale of things.
Congratulations America. Here is the idiot baton. It's yours now, well earned.
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
i didn't vote for him.
Excluded by the county intelligence test? Didn't realise that was a thing.
Or are you simply trolling because it makes you feel tough?
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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Anyway we all - and I mean the whole world - needs to learn pretty fast how to deal with elected fascism, this isn't just a problem for those unfortunate souls in the USA.
If Trump does half of what he said, we're all screwed. Take one thing - the Paris Climate Change agreement. If the US doesn't sign up, the thing is moot and we're all likely screwed.
Or imagine if he goes through with his promise to push out minorities. Another mass migration issue, this time in North America.
We need global mobilisation. Not just pointing fingers (although, boy, there are enough people to point at. Looking at you Farage, you piece of slime). Not just raging at the press or the polls. Not just ruing what might have been.
Organise and resist. Starting now. Otherwise we're into Weimar territory.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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romanlion, without you this would be a place where a woman would have a somewhat smaller chance of being called a cunt or a bitch.
[ 09. November 2016, 07:21: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
i didn't vote for him.
Excluded by the county intelligence test? Didn't realise that was a thing.
Or are you simply trolling because it makes you feel tough?
True trolls don't last on boards like these as long as I have.
So go fuck yourself.
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
romanlion, without you this would be a place where a woman would have a somewhat smaller chance of being called a cunt or a bitch.
To be fair to romanscrotum, he appears to not bother differentiating whether calling a man or a woman a cunt or bitch. He's inclusive in his misogyny.
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
romanlion, without you this would be a place where a woman would have a somewhat smaller chance of being called a cunt or a bitch.
You measure the gender of a shipmate by their name I suppose?
Genius, that...
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Organise and resist. Starting now.
Over in Purgatory, Firenze said quote:
I see a Zeitgeist. A spirit of fear, retreat and isolationism
I think the 'Kingdom of God' response to that is embodying a spirit of grace, openness and connection.
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
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Studies have shown trolls are the same in real life as they are online. With the number of trolls rolling around the internet lately I guess it shouldn't be a surprise when people like Trump get into power. But are trolls happy? Does it really make you happy to say mean things about people? So maybe I do feel sorry for Roman Lion too as well as everyone else who is devastated by the result.
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
i didn't vote for him.
Excluded by the county intelligence test? Didn't realise that was a thing.
Or are you simply trolling because it makes you feel tough?
True trolls don't last on boards like these as long as I have.
I'll take that as confirmation of option 1 then. Sweet.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
True trolls don't last on boards like these as long as I have.
Wait, I know this one - they get elected to the White House.
quote:
So go fuck yourself.
You do realise that nothing you could possibly say will make us feel any worse, right?
You're like a flea bite on a carcrash victim.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
romanlion, without you this would be a place where a woman would have a somewhat smaller chance of being called a cunt or a bitch.
You measure the gender of a shipmate by their name I suppose?
Genius, that...
I might be wrong - it wouldn't be the first time. But that takes nothing away from the sexism of your epithets.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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Farage will be crowing. So will Putin.
It's a dark day. I didn't think we'd see this from America.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think the 'Kingdom of God' response to that is embodying a spirit of grace, openness and connection.
Absolutely, the one thing the fascists can't stand is kindness. Refuse to co-operate with their ranting and callous abuse of minorities. Refuse to stand in line and do their bidding. Refuse to participate.
Love more. Care more. Take in the stranger.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Love more. Care more. Take in the stranger.
In the morning. But not tonight.
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Love more. Care more. Take in the stranger.
Curiously, that's the slogan of my local brothel
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
In the morning. But not tonight.
For sure, take the time you need to mourn and a minute to prepare yourself for the coming wave of fascism.
But in the morning, get up and organise.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Love more. Care more. Take in the stranger.
Curiously, that's the slogan of my local brothel
Ha ha. I was in a con-evo church on Sunday that quietly has a family of Azerbaijanian muslims living in its premises because they have nowhere else to go*. I have to admit to being jealous.
*church bring-and-share meals are fun: "we have to make sure the muslim kids stay away from anything not halal!"
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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I guess that Trump now has a couple of months to produce some policies before he gets sworn in.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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Today is, in European notation, 9/11.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Today is, in European notation, 9/11.
Motherfucker*. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
(That's an exclamation, not name calling, just to clarify.)
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
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Have I missed anything whilst I've been away?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I guess that Trump now has a couple of months to produce some policies before he gets sworn in.
Folks in the financial markets would sure appreciate it if he would pull that together sooner rather than later. I don't even want to think about what my retirement account looks like right now.
And then of course there will be the whole running the country thing.
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
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It just goes to show what you can do when you have the FBI on your side. They spent most of Clinton's campaign time trying to imply she had done something criminal, then after completely failing to do more than convince the stupid that there where there was smoke there was fire, they brought it all up again just before the election (when they already knew there was nothing in Weiner's computer) and she lost her lead. I've always hated those self-important assholes. In 1968 in our small town they had my 20 year-old husband on their list of people to watch -- because he had long hair. Seriously.
This election has done something none of the other's managed to do. It's made me hate my neighbors.
I'm sick.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Have I missed anything whilst I've been away?
No. So, you can go away again.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
i didn't vote for him.
Perhaps not, but when you're celebrating his victory so enthusiastically it makes no practical difference.
Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Love more. Care more. Take in the stranger.
And in that spirit, I will say that the bit of his speech that I heard on the radio this morning was gracious and inclusive. So we are not without all hope.
Our Lady of Good Counsel, pray for us.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Have I missed anything whilst I've been away?
No. You and Romanlion are still two cheeks of the same fetid, dysenteric arse.
Now fuck off.
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Have I missed anything whilst I've been away?
No. So, you can go away again.
Nice try.
This morning I thought that I would quite like to watch people getting in a lefty tizz because the world doesn't agree with them - again. Now where could I go to see that I wonder.
I'm surprised that the hanky-wringing still goes on when another nail is driven into the coffin of socialism. Aren't you used to it by now?
The democratic vote - by which I mean in it's purest sense of each person getting a vote and using it in secret in the way they choose - must be the most feared and hated tool for many on this site, because people will insist on using it to move to the right instead of the left.
For many of us who wish to see islam removed from our western culture - nicely but firmly! - today is a good day. Many voted for Trump because of that policy, and ignoring that fact is no longer an option.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'm surprised that the hanky-wringing still goes on when another nail is driven into the coffin of socialism.
This is not a tragedy for socialism. It's a tragedy for common sense.
Individual ballots are not to be feared.
What is to be feared is when the people casting the ballots do so on the basis of downright lies - like getting an extra £350m a week for the NHS - and the outcome when they don't get what was promised.
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
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Deano, historically modern nations tend to swing from left to right and back, thankfully usually not going too far one way before swinging back the other way. I'm centre left in politics, but don't mind too much if a centre right government is in power as long is not too extreme and discriminatory against minorities, women and those with less money. What is your ideal world? Do you want the US/world to be right wing forever? If so is there a level you want it to stay at or do you want it to swing as far right as possible, and if so why for goodness sake? Just because a lot of us here lean left doesn't mean we are all 'socialists' and I shudder to think that you would consider yourself a fascist. So where on the right do you stand? This is not hellish at all but your simplistic 'death to socialism' message is getting boring.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Fuck you, cunt.
Cunt? Seriously? After all the sexism, you think this is okay. Just when I thought my opinion of you couldn't get any lower.
Actually, based on his posts, I suspect he doesn't like *anyone*.
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on
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They that sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind.
And I bet, in my old age, I will see the rest of the world treating with Trump and his minions as if they were rational beings.
Those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it. (videlicet the Third Reich)
Heil Trump!
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I'm surprised that the hanky-wringing still goes on when another nail is driven into the coffin of socialism.
Since Mrs Clinton is not a socialist by a long way, if there's a nail in a coffin it isn't the coffin of socialism. Bernie would have been closer to socialism, but the Democrats decided not to back him. I admit to not having much knowledge of the other candidates, perhaps the Green candidate was socialist - but "third party candidate didn't get many votes" isn't very conclusive of anything.
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Deano, historically modern nations tend to swing from left to right and back, thankfully usually not going too far one way before swinging back the other way. I'm centre left in politics, but don't mind too much if a centre right government is in power as long is not too extreme and discriminatory against minorities, women and those with less money. What is your ideal world? Do you want the US/world to be right wing forever? If so is there a level you want it to stay at or do you want it to swing as far right as possible, and if so why for goodness sake? Just because a lot of us here lean left doesn't mean we are all 'socialists' and I shudder to think that you would consider yourself a fascist. So where on the right do you stand? This is not hellish at all but your simplistic 'death to socialism' message is getting boring.
I don't think you know my politics very well. Actually I'm a moderate, centre-right Conservative.
I wanted Ken Clarke to become our leader in the leadership election that David Cameron eventually won. You don't get much more centrist than that!
But round these parts that merely gets you voted in as one of the more caring, sharing Nazi's, such as Albert Speer, instead of Himmler for example.
Yes I am opposed to islam's insidious attachment to western culture and society and want it stopping and rolling back. But I also fully accept and am wholeheartedly in support of gay rights, same-sex marriage and of gay and women clergy. In fact they are at risk from the increased islamification of the west, and as I prefer to give gay people more rights and protection, and women more rights and protection, that drives my abhorence of islam as a political and cultural movement.
Of course that nice Mr and Mrs Muhammed who run the corner shop down the road won't actually kill a gay man or rape a "decadent" western woman, but just as most Germans didn't actually gas a jew in the 1940's but allowed it to happen on the quiet because it got rid of them, so Mr and Mrs Muhammed won't actually object to those muslims who will kill a gay man or rape western women, nor will they report them to the police. But they are nice.
So yes I accept the pendulum swings centrally left and centrally right and today is a good day for the right.
Which means there will be much gnashing and wailing on the Ship. It is going to be taking on water on the port-side... mainly tears of frustration that good old socialism has been rejected once again of course.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I don't think you know my politics very well. Actually I'm a moderate, centre-right Conservative.
You're a moderate, centre-right Conservative who spits in people's drinks when they're not looking, are happy when a far-right demagogue gets elected, and wants Muslims to know their place - that place not being in Britain.
Just as you wouldn't know socialism if it gave you an NHS and a pension, you don't know what a moderate, centre-right Conservative looks like either.
Hint: go look in a mirror. That's not one.
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
[...] Heil Trump!
There's an old subversive anti-Nazi joke in this, used back then. 'Heil' in German means 'hail', but also 'heal'.
'Heil Hitler!' - 'Heil ihn doch selber!' [Heal Hitler! - Heal him yourself!]
In that sense, yes please, 'Heal Trump'!
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
:
No I didn't know your politics, Deano, because you generally don't discuss them reasonably like that. I just assumed your were further to the right due to you assuming anyone to the left of you on the political spectrum was a socialist (who should be mocked) and also your prejudiced stereotypes of Muslims.
Not all Muslims believe the same thing. Some are even openly gay in safe countries like Australia. And certainly I would hope I could trust any of the Muslims I know to report it if I or another woman was raped by a fellow Muslim. However given the attitude of some of my male Christian friends in relation to Trump's comments about sexual assault I don't know if I can totally trust any individual to take sexual assault seriously.
I'm sure like me, lots of other shipmates have Muslim friends, colleagues, students etc. and take offense when you pedal negative stereotypes about Muslims and Islam. Germans during WW2 cannot be compared to the millions of Muslims worldwide.
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You're a moderate, centre-right Conservative who spits in people's drinks when they're not looking [/QB]
For those who are new to this age-old discussion, I did manage to spit in one Arthur Scargill's pint pot when as a student I worked behind a bar in 1984 during the miner's strike and he came into our Miner's Welfare club for a meeting.
So given that it was Scargill - the man who wanted to use the miners to bring down a democratically elected government (again with the voting thing) - it was a perfectly reasonable thing to do. At least I didn't indulge in a bit of skiffing. Not for want of trying but the opportunity never arose.
Anyway, that's my claim to fame. One naturally tries to hide one's light under one's bushel, so as not to come off as a braggart of course, but there are times when a man has to stand up and say, with pride, "I gozzed in Arthur Scargill's pint pot".
Just for clarity, I have never done it to anyone else. It isn't a hobby or anything. But opportunities don't come that way very often so one must grab them with both hands.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
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Your claim to fame is that you were a coward then, and you're a coward now.
That's not much to base a life around, is it?
And I suspect that when they come for the nice Mr and Mrs Mohammed down the road, you'll sit on your thumbs with a little tight smile, and like the little coward you are, do nothing.
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Your claim to fame is that you were a coward then, and you're a coward now.
That's not much to base a life around, is it?
And I suspect that when they come for the nice Mr and Mrs Mohammed down the road, you'll sit on your thumbs with a little tight smile, and like the little coward you are, do nothing.
Quite possibly. With today's election result we are more likely to see if your predictions will come true won't we.
But as I am on record here of wanting "them", it's unlikely that I'll do anything other than watch them - gently but firmly - guide Mr and Mrs Mohammed towards the departure gate. We ought to see if they want a nice cup of tea or something though. I promise not to spit in it. Unless of course they want to bring down an elected government using undemocratic means. Then I'll see if I can hoik up a green 'un.
But the bitterness in your post Doc is - and I'm going out on a limb here - more venomous than usual because of President Trump (get used to that folks) winning the election. It is borne of frustration that once more your view of the world is shown to be out of step with the majority.
But I can be magnanimous in victory and excuse you.
President Trump won a free and fair election, the Conservative Party won a free and fair election and the British people voted to leave the EU in a free and fair election. I wonder if the flaw lies in your arguments, and that your policies are seen as unwanted and unworkable.
Maybe you ought to consider the very real possibility that your political position is, quite simply, wrong.
Posted by SusanDoris (# 12618) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I guess that Trump now has a couple of months to produce some policies before he gets sworn in.
When he does this (excuse me while I shudder yet again at the thought), he will say, 'so help me god' or similar? This sounds very much like hypocrisy to me, speaking not as an atheist, but as one who respects those who, like members here, are sincere in their beliefs.
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
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Where are these planes going too? Particularly for British born Muslims. And you wonder why people are comparing your views to Nazi actions.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
the British people voted to leave the EU in a free and fair election.
Are you sure about that? In the last election we all had a chance to vote in, the only party who had a manifesto commitment to leave the EU managed to get one MP. Hardly an election result that endorses leaving the EU.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
the British people voted to leave the EU in a free and fair election.
Are you sure about that? In the last election we all had a chance to vote in, the only party who had a manifesto commitment to leave the EU managed to get one MP. Hardly an election result that endorses leaving the EU.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the referendum.
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
One stupid outcome of the way US Presidential Elections are run is that Clinton won the popular vote but lost the Electoral College.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
One stupid outcome of the way US Presidential Elections are run is that Clinton won the popular vote but lost the Electoral College.
No more stupid than the UK system where a party can form a government without getting the largest share of the popular vote. Or, where the PM can change mid term on the votes of a small number of party members.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
the British people voted to leave the EU in a free and fair election.
Are you sure about that? In the last election we all had a chance to vote in, the only party who had a manifesto commitment to leave the EU managed to get one MP. Hardly an election result that endorses leaving the EU.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the referendum.
Sure, what he's whittering on about. Not what he said. I got a lot of stick for saying a referendum is similar to an election, and therefore common election practice such as having a manifesto* should have applied, without going as far as saying a referendum is an election.
* though, noting that Trump has just gone into an election without bothering about such things as producing a manifesto of practical, worked through policies ...
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
President Trump won a free and fair election, the Conservative Party won a free and fair election and the British people voted to leave the EU in a free and fair election. I wonder if the flaw lies in your arguments, and that your policies are seen as unwanted and unworkable.
What is fair about elections that are won by lies and once won, by policies that contradict a manifesto? (I'll let the Leave EU campaign off the latter, as it didn't have one, just a whingefest).
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
One stupid outcome of the way US Presidential Elections are run is that Clinton won the popular vote but lost the Electoral College.
No more stupid than the UK system where a party can form a government without getting the largest share of the popular vote. Or, where the PM can change mid term on the votes of a small number of party members.
But not any less stupid, either.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
True.
No one has a monopoly on excess stupidity.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Maybe you ought to consider the very real possibility that your political position is, quite simply, wrong.
You really are a smarmy little shit, aren't you?
Yes, I consider that my political position - treating people as I'd like to be treated, making sure that the sick and disabled are looked after with dignity, that work actually pays, that there's investment in infrastructure and science and art, that everyone pays a proportion of their income to fund the work of government, that people are free to express their opinions and live their lives free of government intrusion and surveillance, that access to the law shouldn't be on the basis of affordability, that education and training enriches us all, and that shovelling more wealth at the plutocracy isn't the best way of having a fair and just society - may be wrong. But I'm not honestly seeing too many flaws in it.
I could, of course, simply go all out for the "I'm all right, Jack" approach, which apparently sufficient of my fellows adopt to elect a Tory government, or an inchoate howl of rage at the "metropolitan elite" (which I'm part of by merely possessing both compassion and an education) which gave us Brexit. But I'd wear neither particularly well.
Evil has triumphed, but I'm not ready to join the Dark Side just yet.
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Where are these planes going too? Particularly for British born Muslims. And you wonder why people are comparing your views to Nazi actions.
It would be a fair comparison if I started talking about "special showers" and "Arbeit macht frei". But I'm not and neither is President Trump.
The first step will be to stop muslims coming into the country in the first place. Short visits (3 months or so) on a tourist visa will still be allowed, as will diplomatic personnel.
The second step will be to offer a voluntary scheme asking if people of muslim heritage want to go to another country. We will help them with administrative issues and a cash incentive (the policies are controversial so let's make it generous to muslims who want to leave and costly to the UK taxpayer).
Eventually of course the applicants will stop volunteering. So now in step 3 we go looking...
We tell Mr and Mrs Muhammed that we would like them to go and they will still receive the gratuity but not quite as generous as the voluntary ones got. If they then choose to leave then the planes will go to wherever Mr and Mrs Muhammed want! If they have strong family ties in a particular islamic country then great. No problem.
If they don't, well step 4 will begin and we look into their background and get the Foreign Office to make the call on their behalf. Free flights only at this stage, no gratuity beyond a nominal amount for say a month in a hotel until they get sorted locally.
I suspect that most will accept the situation and make the best decision for themselves and their families after the first few step 4'ers.
It doesn't have to be nasty. Of course it isn't going to be a policy that everyone can get behind, but it can be a policy that is workable and implemented with as much generosity as possible.
There can be appeals processes and built-in exceptions for those in medical treatments and so on of course.
But of course this is a wish-list. None of it will happen except possibly step one, which President Trump has used as a campaign promise.
It might happen. If it does and is successful then there is no reason the UK can't follow suit.
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Maybe you ought to consider the very real possibility that your political position is, quite simply, wrong.
You really are a smarmy little shit, aren't you?
Yes, I consider that my political position - treating people as I'd like to be treated, making sure that the sick and disabled are looked after with dignity, that work actually pays, that there's investment in infrastructure and science and art, that everyone pays a proportion of their income to fund the work of government, that people are free to express their opinions and live their lives free of government intrusion and surveillance, that access to the law shouldn't be on the basis of affordability, that education and training enriches us all, and that shovelling more wealth at the plutocracy isn't the best way of having a fair and just society - may be wrong. But I'm not honestly seeing too many flaws in it.
I could, of course, simply go all out for the "I'm all right, Jack" approach, which apparently sufficient of my fellows adopt to elect a Tory government, or an inchoate howl of rage at the "metropolitan elite" (which I'm part of by merely possessing both compassion and an education) which gave us Brexit. But I'd wear neither particularly well.
Evil has triumphed, but I'm not ready to join the Dark Side just yet.
The problem is Doc is that it sounds expensive. I'd rather keep my money in my pocket if it's alright with you.
Not saying your wrong of course, but I'm not looking to pay that much. You haven't got any used political dogma's you can show me have you? Nothing flashy, just a cheap, reliable little ideology to nip the wife to the shops in?
Only down the road at Mrs May's Political Process Showroom they've got a smart looking little ideology that's priced about right. Okay it's not a Rolls-Royce but it'll manage.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
deano: no depth knowingly left unplumbed.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
When America isn't great again in a year or two, the Fuhrer is going to need scapegoats. Thanks, Deano, for illustrating how this is going to work.
Posted by Callan (# 525) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Where are these planes going too? Particularly for British born Muslims. And you wonder why people are comparing your views to Nazi actions.
It would be a fair comparison if I started talking about "special showers" and "Arbeit macht frei". But I'm not and neither is President Trump.
The first step will be to stop muslims coming into the country in the first place. Short visits (3 months or so) on a tourist visa will still be allowed, as will diplomatic personnel.
The second step will be to offer a voluntary scheme asking if people of muslim heritage want to go to another country. We will help them with administrative issues and a cash incentive (the policies are controversial so let's make it generous to muslims who want to leave and costly to the UK taxpayer).
Eventually of course the applicants will stop volunteering. So now in step 3 we go looking...
We tell Mr and Mrs Muhammed that we would like them to go and they will still receive the gratuity but not quite as generous as the voluntary ones got. If they then choose to leave then the planes will go to wherever Mr and Mrs Muhammed want! If they have strong family ties in a particular islamic country then great. No problem.
If they don't, well step 4 will begin and we look into their background and get the Foreign Office to make the call on their behalf. Free flights only at this stage, no gratuity beyond a nominal amount for say a month in a hotel until they get sorted locally.
I suspect that most will accept the situation and make the best decision for themselves and their families after the first few step 4'ers.
It doesn't have to be nasty. Of course it isn't going to be a policy that everyone can get behind, but it can be a policy that is workable and implemented with as much generosity as possible.
There can be appeals processes and built-in exceptions for those in medical treatments and so on of course.
But of course this is a wish-list. None of it will happen except possibly step one, which President Trump has used as a campaign promise.
It might happen. If it does and is successful then there is no reason the UK can't follow suit.
It never starts with 'special showers' and 'arbeit macht frei'. It starts with people wanting to remove the contaminating element from our midst and moves on from there. Just like you.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
You don't really need to put a reasoned argument against that, do you?
I'm sure everyone else now sees Deano exposed as what he is. For Deano himself, given that he's nearly as hard of thinking as he is of caring, try putting the word "Jew" in where you've currently got "Muslim". It works really, really, well.
Still, it's somewhat gratifying to have it confirmed that one's most vociferous political opponents are complete knobs.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
One problem with your scheme, deano. One very big, unavoidable problem:
The absolute, supreme, you-can't-contradict it basic law of the United States of America, which every officer from President to local dogcatcher has to swear to protect, defend, and uphold, says you can't do that.
So either it doesn't happen, can't be done, or the thing that really, truly, and literally defines what America is...isn't.
And, what terrifies so many of us, is that we've been hearing un-Constitutional schemes like that, hearing plans to violate our nation's fundamental charter and record of the social contract to which we abide, and, frankly, there's reason to believe people mean it.
[ 09. November 2016, 12:43: Message edited by: Ariston ]
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
deano crawls out from under a rock, and demonstrates that he's indistinguishable from the slime that was also there. Far too odious to bother responding to.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
So does Dolfie give the matches and gasoline to a Moselem or Hispanic?
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
:
Illary is done.
Barry is leaving, his legacy and party in tatters.
It's a great day in the USA!
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
As Callan said, it doesn't start with special showers. It starts with helpful schemes to enable people to move elsewhere, and then moves on. Killing them comes later.
However, I don't see Trump as a fascist, but there are warning signs.
I think fascism usually requires economic collapse to really get going, but you never know, Trump might trigger that.
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
As Callan said, it doesn't start with special showers. It starts with helpful schemes to enable people to move elsewhere, and then moves on. Killing them comes later.
However, I don't see Trump as a fascist, but there are warning signs.
I think fascism usually requires economic collapse to really get going, but you never know, Trump might trigger that.
More likely his predecessor's monetary policy and obscene accumulation of debt already has...
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
ISTM that all the “why Clinton lost” commentaries are avoiding stating the most blindingly obvious fact of all.
She lost because she’s a woman.
Faced with a choice between a vicious, ignorant, xenophobic, tax-avoiding, misogynistic, sociopathic thug and the monstrous regiment of a woman, the land of the free went for the personality disorder.
As a ladyperson myself, I'm feeling a bit… upset about that.
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It doesn't have to be nasty.
It does have to be nasty, because it is nasty. Deporting people because they belong to the religion or race you have decided to make your scapegoat cannot be anything other than nasty.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It doesn't have to be nasty.
It does have to be nasty, because it is nasty. Deporting people because they belong to the religion or race you have decided to make your scapegoat cannot be anything other than nasty.
Neo-Nazism with a sugar coating.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It doesn't have to be nasty.
It does have to be nasty, because it is nasty. Deporting people because they belong to the religion or race you have decided to make your scapegoat cannot be anything other than nasty.
Don't you see? These people should be grateful because the wonderful magnanimous Deano isn't actually going to kill them.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
Not yet.
Posted by dyfrig (# 15) on
:
I suspect most UK Muslim's answer to the offer of payment will be similar to that of Lenny Henry;s to Enoch Powell's offer to black people of a thousand pounds to go home - "That's great. I'm from Dudley. It's only down the road."
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
Yes, my best friend, who was a Muslim, was from Watford. Fuck me, you mean he might get a travelcard all the way home?
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Fuck all you Illary voters.
Fuck you all very much.
Eat shit and die.
Go dip your scrotum in battery acid you illiterate fuckweasel.
You lose, bitch...
Fuck off and draw your last, if you care about the rest of us...
You know, romanlion, I feel very, very sorry for you. Something obviously happened in your pathetic life to turn you into the bitter, hateful person that you are. Personally, I do not feel safe promenading on the same decks of the Ship on which you lurk and prowl. I think I'll just confine myself to my stateroom until some crew member grabs you and throws you overboard, where the sharks will deal with you as you deserve. Don't bother to reply -- I'm going to set your name in the directory to Ignore.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
After listening through Vaughan Williams, the only other vinyl in my office was "The War of the Worlds" - a mistake. I've just reached the bit where the vicar claims the Martians have been in us all along. But I know this ends well!
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It doesn't have to be nasty.
It does have to be nasty, because it is nasty. Deporting people because they belong to the religion or race you have decided to make your scapegoat cannot be anything other than nasty.
Neo-Nazism with a sugar coating.
Nope. It's pretty much straight-down-the-line plain old Nazism.
So much for the "centre-right conservative" he wants us to think he is.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
She lost because she’s a woman.
Yes, and every man who thinks he's a moderate or on the left should acknowledge this, or admit he's to some degree really a reactionary.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
I've been trying to find a quote somewhere else, on another subject (domestic violence) about the attitude of certain 'Christian' groups to women faced with this situation.
The women are, apparently, supposed to continue to submit to abusive husbands and to "trust that God would honor her action by either stopping the abuse or giving her the strength to endure it".
I have a horrible feeling that we are going to have to pray for endurance, because that is all that is on offer. Especially for our friends over the pond.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Amen to that - and may God remove the curse from America a.s.a.p.
IJ
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
She lost because she’s a woman.
Yes, and every man who thinks he's a moderate or on the left should acknowledge this, or admit he's to some degree really a reactionary.
It was definitely part of the reason she lost for some of those who voted against her, but I don't agree that it's the only reason.
It's very easy to put defeats like these down to sexism, racism or just plain stupidity on the part of those who voted the other way. It means we can tell ourselves there isn't anything wrong with us, it's just that the bad guys won this round. But if we ignore the other economic and political issues that are at work here then they're just going to come back and bite us on the ass next time as well.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
Of course there will be practical actions we can take. A friend of mine advises:
"On a personal level, stand by your friends who are black, Jewish, Muslim,atheists, Latino, Asian, female, gay, bi, or trans, and fight to protect them from bullying and persecution to any degree possible. You all know the old saying about "They came for the Jews, and I said nothing, because I wasn't a Jew, they came for the socialists, and I said nothing..." and so forth. Say something, do something. By legal action, by mass public protest, by force if necessary in individual cases. Don't let your neighbors and friends stand alone, support them in any way you can. In the extreme case (and I don't really think that it will actually come to this) that they actually try to make Muslims wear special identifying armbands, you wear one too, as they did in Denmark during WWII when the Nazis ordered that Jews should wear armbands to make them easily identifiable."
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Lord, have mercy....if it comes to that.
Meanwhile, given that Trump is 70-ish, is it wrong to want him to die a natural death? Very soon?
IJ
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on
:
No.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
Water-cooler discussion today: we are strongly hoping that Cheato Benito will end up impeached. Sooner rather than later.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Water-cooler discussion today: we are strongly hoping that Cheato Benito will end up impeached. Sooner rather than later.
That's been my assumption. But then we're stuck with Pence.
There's also a possibility that Trump will never make it to his Inauguration, since he has some trials coming up before then.
Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
ISTM that all the “why Clinton lost” commentaries are avoiding stating the most blindingly obvious fact of all.
She lost because she’s a woman.
Faced with a choice between a vicious, ignorant, xenophobic, tax-avoiding, misogynistic, sociopathic thug and the monstrous regiment of a woman, the land of the free went for the personality disorder.
As a ladyperson myself, I'm feeling a bit… upset about that.
With you. Many of us are really struggling to understand the world today. I really believed there would be a woman president. Instead there is someone who has assaulted women.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Ha ha. I was in a con-evo church on Sunday that quietly has a family of Azerbaijanian muslims living in its premises because they have nowhere else to go*. I have to admit to being jealous.
*church bring-and-share meals are fun: "we have to make sure the muslim kids stay away from anything not halal!"
This is sweet, and may we see more of this sort of thing--particularly in America, in spite of Trump. He may be a disheartening blast of doom, but there's plenty we can do under the radar to be decent human beings.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
Is it possible to try a president-elect? I don't believe I've ever seen this addressed before.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
She won the popular vote.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
If Trump was in any way interested in bridge building, and had even a grain of sense ( I know, I know) he'd figure out a way to put Hillary to use.
Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
After listening through Vaughan Williams, the only other vinyl in my office was "The War of the Worlds" - a mistake. I've just reached the bit where the vicar claims the Martians have been in us all along. But I know this ends well!
I love the bit where the vicar's wife says "They're not devils, they're martians" as if that somehow makes it better!
Posted by Callan (# 525) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
After listening through Vaughan Williams, the only other vinyl in my office was "The War of the Worlds" - a mistake. I've just reached the bit where the vicar claims the Martians have been in us all along. But I know this ends well!
I love the bit where the vicar's wife says "They're not devils, they're martians" as if that somehow makes it better!
Yeah, but it's accurate.
Nowadays it would be "But they're not populists, they're racists!"
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
I believe this fellow is in the clergy: explaining why this is a sad day.
Posted by Callan (# 525) on
:
There were hopes of shapes and sizes,
Scattered out across the bay
And I thought I heard her calling
As they gently slipped away
The Americans were voting
For a candidate quite wild
Chose a right-wing racist
Vote orange man child.
With an implausible hair-piece
Less plausible policies
And a big hard on for Putin
And a grab for girls pussies
Won the GOP Selection
Despite a fraud case filed
On to the election
Vote orange man child
Elected to the Senate
She shone in her term at State
Should have won it outright
Not to be her fate
The election went the wrong way
Voters by Donald beguiled
Hilary defeated
Vote orange man child.
(To be sung to the tune of 'Thunderchild' with apologies to Jeff Wayne.)
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I believe this fellow is in the clergy: explaining why this is a sad day.
I was so grateful for this piece when I saw it this morning. Every time I tried to say something to myself to cheer myself up, I 'd start to cry again.
Fuck it, I'm having my sad time. It's actually more fortifying than artificially trying to respond to demands to buck up.
[ 09. November 2016, 19:01: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I believe this fellow is in the clergy: explaining why this is a sad day.
Excellent link, Brenda - many thanks.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
It's also the death of a dream for anyone who wanted to see the first female president.
Some bloke on the radio phone-in this morning (here in Britain) was saying he'd cried tears of joy when he heard Trump had got it because World War 3 had now been averted. Trump was a man of peace, etc etc.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
I've had quite a few people bellowing that one at me. Clinton is a war-monger, who wants a no-fly zone in Syria, and will therefore come up against the Russians, whereas the Trumpette is a man of peace, who loves Putin, and Assad, and wants everyone to settle down, demolish IS, and live happily ever after, or something like that.
It's all so fucking hypothetical and question begging.
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
Fuck all you Illary voters.
Fuck you all very much.
Eat shit and die.
Go dip your scrotum in battery acid you illiterate fuckweasel.
You lose, bitch...
Fuck off and draw your last, if you care about the rest of us...
Now that you have expressed your heartfelt joy so eloquently, you might think to yourself about what lies ahead for what could have been a great country. Meanwhile, those of us who have families in the USA are wondering if they are entering an era of fascism, nourished by a mob of ignorant and education-resistant groundlings, who live and breathe similarly joyful hate. I am sure you will be happy there.
Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've had quite a few people bellowing that one at me. Clinton is a war-monger, who wants a no-fly zone in Syria, and will therefore come up against the Russians
I would support Clinton over Trump. Which doesn't meant that she hasn't a history of being un-apologetically hawkish and using fairly intemperate and unhelpful language ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=857guwaNbRc as one example)
I imagine Obama would have acquitted himself with somewhat more grace.
[ 09. November 2016, 19:46: Message edited by: chris stiles ]
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've had quite a few people bellowing that one at me. Clinton is a war-monger, who wants a no-fly zone in Syria, and will therefore come up against the Russians, whereas the Trumpette is a man of peace, who loves Putin, and Assad, and wants everyone to settle down, demolish IS, and live happily ever after, or something like that.
Yes, that was it, "warmonger" was used by him and a few others who rang in. Where did they get this crap? Quite a few of the callers seemed to think Trump was a good thing.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
:
The black dog has been howling at me since I woke up this morning. This situation has slapped me along side the head. I'm depressed and I'm frightened. I think I'll go back to bed.
For a few days.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
This summarizes the root of the problem. I don't know how to fix it either. We may well have passed some awful Rubicon, and there is no going back.
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
:
I went to the YMCA gym first thing this morning and worked out as hard as I could for an hour, then came home and concentrated on some difficult work. But yes, depression and fear have been clawing at the door all day long. There's a sense similar to bereavement, trying to avoid denial. No matter how soon Trump is removed, the long term damage to the Supreme Court will extend beyond my lifetime. How safe is a young same sex couple with a small child in the USA now?
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I guess that Trump now has a couple of months to produce some policies before he gets sworn in.
Alternatively, Pence has a couple of months to get Trump out of the way.
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on
:
Could anyone send him a copy of "The Oval Office for Dummies" by any chance?
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I guess that Trump now has a couple of months to produce some policies before he gets sworn in.
Alternatively, Pence has a couple of months to get Trump out of the way.
I have many friends in Indiana. This is not a comfortable thought for them.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
From what I've read, Pence would not be an improvement.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
:
I wasn't intending to suggest that Pence was an improvement. I was intending to suggest that one of the threats Trump will face is the established politicians of his own party.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
He wants to defund planned parenthood and repeal Roe v. Wade.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
As we have seen, when you defund planned parenthood, there is more recourse to Roe v Wade.
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by molopata:
Could anyone send him a copy of "The Oval Office for Dummies" by any chance?
Gee Dubya Bush can send him his copy. It's probably never been opened.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Oh, totally. Basically he is in favor of increased abortions, that will then be illegal.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
Pence wants to ARREST gays who apply for a marriage license. Just for asking for the form. Not sure he would be the better choice, at least if you are or know anybody who is LGBTQ++.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
There have been two things going through my head all day:
1) Sexual assault has no consequences. None.
We, as a nation, condone assault.
This is something I know half the population grows up with, but, as someone who doesn't have to live with this fact, it's terrifying.
I have family who voted for Trump. I wonder if they would tolerate that behavior from me. I really hope they wouldn't. If not from their cousin, then why from him?
2) Some of my friends here work with our DACA program. Folks who arrived in the States as kids, for whom this is home, always has been. It's been hard work these past few months. Now? God have mercy on us all. All Trump has to do is revoke the program on Day 1 and, just like that, the only home they've ever known is gone.
I have a thing for worker's and labor rights. The places I was hoping to work? They're all in the crosshairs. Wage and hour enforcement? Ha. Collective bargaining rights? Bye. Equal pay for equal work? Gone.
And that's just the start.
The rest—the xenophobia, the coming foreign standoffs, and the hatred that has been legitimated and vindicated—I try to think of it, and just...numb. It doesn't compute. I don't have empathy enough to comprehend what's in store.
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Is it possible to try a president-elect? I don't believe I've ever seen this addressed before.
Yes, Trump could be tried. The fraud trial against him and Trump University(!) is set to go forward in three(?) weeks. The Supreme Court back in 1997 ruled that Presidents do not enjoy absolute immunity.
[ 10. November 2016, 03:49: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
:
Had a day working at a creche with small children today. Thought that would keep my mind off the election results. But one of my colleagues there is Muslim so Deano's awful but impossible plan kept running through my mind. And I realised one of the toy lawnmowers looked like Donald Trump (it has a face): Orange, big mouth that opens and closes, red trucker cap. I wish I could find a photo, but it's an old toy so couldn't find one online.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
There was a round- faced plastic dollhouse Daddy doll in the class yesterday, with orange yellow hair and a three piece suit, that I just wanted to crush.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
lver--
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
ISTM that all the “why Clinton lost” commentaries are avoiding stating the most blindingly obvious fact of all.
She lost because she’s a woman.
Faced with a choice between a vicious, ignorant, xenophobic, tax-avoiding, misogynistic, sociopathic thug and the monstrous regiment of a woman, the land of the free went for the personality disorder.
As a ladyperson myself, I'm feeling a bit… upset about that.
Exactly.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Is it possible to try a president-elect? I don't believe I've ever seen this addressed before.
Yes, Trump could be tried. The fraud trial against him and Trump University(!) is set to go forward in three(?) weeks. The Supreme Court back in 1997 ruled that Presidents do not enjoy absolute immunity.
Good. Wish that rape trial were set to go in time--AFAIK it won't be, and I'm guessing will simply be canceled.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
:
I'll be interested to see the jury selection for that fraud trial. Think they might have to move the trial to American Samoa to find twelve unbiased jurors?
Posted by sabine (# 3861) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
From what I've read, Pence would not be an improvement.
Having lived with Pence as my governor, I cannot begin to list the reasons why he wouldn't be an improvement. But I'll try:
1. He doesn't have original thought, but does what the party tells him to do.
2. He allows himself to be trotted out to clean up after someone makes egregious errors or statements.
3. He does this by sticking to talking points even when talking points have nothing to do with the question.
4. He's really never done anything politically except position himself to coattail up the ladder.
5. He really really likes to get into micromanaging women's issues (here, he is one with the people pulling his strings). For example, in Indiana it is now law that if you miscarriage or abortion, you have to pay for a burial or cremation of the remains. Yes, some people choose to do this, but some miscarriages are early on, and some people can't afford to do this. And some miscarriages happen very early in the pregnancy.
I wonder how he would do all alone at the top. Oh wait, he wouldn't be all alone. He would still be a puppet.
sabine
[ 10. November 2016, 15:02: Message edited by: sabine ]
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
I can't find the link now, but someone has already started a web site collecting incidents -- people grabbing hijabs off of women and screaming that they now can't wear it, photographs of swastika graffiti, etc.
And Christians voted heavily for the pussy grabber. I think I will leave the church.
Posted by Callan (# 525) on
:
Originally posted by Sabine:
quote:
He allows himself to be trotted out to clean up after someone makes egregious errors or statements.
He's not going to have much free-time between now and 2020, is he?
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Good. Wish that rape trial were set to go in time--AFAIK it won't be, and I'm guessing will simply be canceled.
If this is the woman who was raped when she was 13, she received death threats and withdrew from the case.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
So much for respect for the rule of law. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
Here is the Twitter feed link, where persons of color are posting insults and threats as from yesterday.
[Hostly advisory: obviously, as it's twitter, I can't guarantee the SFWedness of this link, nor your sanity. The latter, I'm not responsible for.]
[ 10. November 2016, 18:00: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
Posted by Doone (# 18470) on
:
Terrifying ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
Alas, there are many more reports coming in. A friend of a friend, a writer, relies (like so many people in the arts) solely upon Obamacare to keep her alive. She committed suicide yesterday.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
Brenda--
I'm sorry about the artist who died. May she find peace, light, and comfort, and ditto for those who care about her.
Posted by Martin60 (# 368) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
romanlion, without you this would be a place where a woman would have a somewhat smaller chance of being called a cunt or a bitch.
You measure the gender of a shipmate by their name I suppose?
Genius, that...
I might be wrong - it wouldn't be the first time. But that takes nothing away from the sexism of your epithets.
That would be for the first time Ruth. You're not. He's not getting any. Like Tom Cruise in Magnolia. Frank T.J. Mackey. But without the charm.
Posted by romanlion (# 10325) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A friend of a friend, a writer, relies (like so many people in the arts) solely upon Obamacare to keep her alive. She committed suicide yesterday.
That would have to be considered a profound failure of the program, would it not?
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
OMG, tin man.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
Oh haha. She could not survive without it, and rather than seeing it go (and then dying without care) she ended it.
Another friend of a friend reports:
"So I am downtown and a group of white dudes are looking at a woman wearing a dress standing alone minding her business. We all get on the subway. When she walks past the group, one of the men yells grab her by the pussy. One of the dudes literally then tried to touch the woman inappropriately. The woman yelled and the guys laughed. A group of people and I literally threw the 3 dudes off the subway at the Wood Street. America is really thinking this shit is a joke." He concludes with a scowly emoticon.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Alas, there are many more reports coming in. A friend of a friend, a writer, relies (like so many people in the arts) solely upon Obamacare to keep her alive. She committed suicide yesterday.
Brenda, I am so sorry to hear this. Please let her friends and family know that some of us have our hearts going out to them. (And others, too, who may be feeling so abandoned.)
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
There seems to be no depth of infamy to which that slimy lump of filth aka romanlion will not stoop.
Surely a post like that is enough to get him/her/it planked?
for Brenda's friend of a friend...
IJ
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Surely a post like that is enough to get him/her/it planked?
Suffice to say, the post was noted. Any further discussion should be reasonably held in Styx.
DT
HH
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
:
romanlion I hope you get the psychological help you so obviously and desperately need.
Huia
Posted by mr cheesy (# 3330) on
:
'kin norah. that's awful.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
I have to remind myself that it isn't only the right wing that gets all smug and sneery, that I do know of people who behave in similar ways on the left. But I also know that I don't find them being so in your face in the world at large.
And I hope that the grown-ups soon put a stop to the lunatic young males who have convinced me that the Neanderthals died out because they were too nice, and the DNA mixing involved modern women finding the older variety more rational.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
In general the jerks on the left shoot fewer people, spraypaint fewer threatening symbols and words on homes, and torch fewer black churches. At least that's what I've noticed.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
ISTM that all the “why Clinton lost” commentaries are avoiding stating the most blindingly obvious fact of all.
She lost because she’s a woman.
I don't understand why that would be the reason.
The Americans might have been happy to vote for a woman, but Hillary just wasn't an engaging candidate. It's unfortunate, because a more appealing Democrat, male or female, would surely have had a good chance of beating someone like Trump.
Ironically, it's thanks to Brexit that we in the backward-looking UK now have our second woman prime minister. I haven't heard any Ukippers or other Brexiters complaining that Theresa May isn't a man!
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
A friend of a friend, a writer, relies (like so many people in the arts) solely upon Obamacare to keep her alive. She committed suicide yesterday.
That would have to be considered a profound failure of the program, would it not?
You are beneath contempt.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
romanlion--
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
romanlion I hope you get the psychological help you so obviously and desperately need.
But, in prelude: every time you have a pithy insult to sling, look in a mirror and say it about the person you see there.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In general the jerks on the left shoot fewer people, spraypaint fewer threatening symbols and words on homes, and torch fewer black churches. At least that's what I've noticed.
Thanks - I can now go back into default mode and forget a certain council who diss their electorate for being too middle class (when they have day jobs like running academies and PR businesses themselves).
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In general the jerks on the left shoot fewer people, spraypaint fewer threatening symbols and words on homes, and torch fewer black churches. At least that's what I've noticed.
Thanks - I can now go back into default mode and forget a certain council who diss their electorate for being too middle class (when they have day jobs like running academies and PR businesses themselves).
Huh? What does this have to do with what I said?
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
They are the bunch of left wing jerks I use to remind myself that the left can do it too. Only, as you point out, not usually so nastily. Of course, when they have the power to remove local services, it can be destructive, but in a politer way.
Alternatively, I can remember the LWJs who were beastly to a woman who saw badgers in a
South London wood.
But they don't really stomp all over the internet crowing that everyone who disagrees with them should shut up because of that special election magic that means that fewer votes have the mandate and they can do what they like to shut the majority up.
So you are right, which is what I meant really. I'm not arguing clearly at the moment.
[ 11. November 2016, 14:52: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on
:
LWJs?
Posted by Jolly Jape (# 3296) on
:
Left Wing Jerks
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on
:
It seems as if protests against trump will soon fizzle out. The stormtroopers are getting impatient.
Posted by anne (# 73) on
:
As part of our Remembrance commemorations in the local secondary School today I set up a prayer station. It included a chance for children to write down the name of someone that they wanted to remember, or a place that they would pray for peace. I've done the same sort of thing many times over the years, inviting prayers for peace, but today there were prayers I had never seen before.
"I pray for peace in America", written unprompted by different children, one of whom said to me "I think there's going to be a war Miss, in America"
If 13 year olds in our rural backwater in the UK are scared, how does a Muslim or Hispanic or gay thirteen year old feel living in a rural backwater in the USA?
anne
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
How indeed?
But bless your kids, anne, for being so sensitive.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
IJ
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
It seems as if protests against trump will soon fizzle out.
Until January 20th.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
On Jan. 21 there is going to be a march of women on Washington DC. I live in commuting distance, and can offer crash space to anyone who wants to go. My college roommate and I plan to go down.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
(B)less your kids, anne, for being so sensitive.
Amen.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
A long and sad roundup of terrifying occurrences since Tuesday.
The rush to women's clinics to get health care and birth control before it is curtailed.
This is getting scary.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
(B)less your kids, anne, for being so sensitive.
Amen.
Very much Amen.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
It seems as if protests against trump will soon fizzle out.
Until January 20th.
There are going to be plenty of protests against Trump. Some from those opposed to Trump but at least as many from those who supported his campaign but feel let down when he doesn't deliver.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
The fucking rioting needs to end. The violent lose license to complain about violence.
Posted by Goldfish Stew (# 5512) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The fucking rioting needs to end. The violent lose license to complain about violence.
Hell to the yes...
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
Here is a more nuanced protest. It's behind the Times paywall, but the money quote:
" ...it is impossible for me to fall in line behind an unrepentant bigot. It will be impossible for me to view this man participating in the pageantry and protocols of the presidency and not be reminded of how he is a demonstrated demagogue who is also a sexist, a racist, a xenophobe and a bully.
That is not a person worthy of applause. That is a person who must be placed under unrelenting pressure. Power must be challenged, constantly. That begins today."
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
Good point from a priest friend of mine: If the GOP is sincere about this "give Trump a chance" message, let them approve President Obama's SCOTUS candidate.
Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on
:
Lost in all this is the fact that 35 people, First Nations, were arrested in North Dakota. They should have changed their names to Bundy, and the cops would have been ferrying chocolate bars and fresh water.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is getting scary.
There *might* be a legal remedy.
Here's a link to my just-now post in Purg, which discusses a petition that millions of people have signed.
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Lost in all this is the fact that 35 people, First Nations, were arrested in North Dakota. They should have changed their names to Bundy, and the cops would have been ferrying chocolate bars and fresh water.
Can you elaborate on this and possibly post one or more lynx, please? Many thanks.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Lost in all this is the fact that 35 people, First Nations, were arrested in North Dakota. They should have changed their names to Bundy, and the cops would have been ferrying chocolate bars and fresh water.
Not lost at all Pete, most of my FB friends are furious about this. And I totally agree about the Bundy part. It's just unconscionable.
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on
:
Lynx please? Coz I dunno what's going on there really. Kthxbai.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
This and probably this. The assertion being that police treat you differently depending on what colour/ethnicity you are.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Auugh. On a non link friendly device Gimme a sec.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Ok, Here's the Bundy stuff...
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
... And here's the Dakota info. Basically, all the action from both links happened within a couple weeks of each other. The hypocracy is despicable.
( Sorry for the multiple posts, but my browser has this glitch where it eats my reply box every time I switch tabs.)
[ 12. November 2016, 07:22: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This and probably this. The assertion being that police treat you differently depending on what colour/ethnicity you are.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Smartypants. Anyway, what he said.
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on
:
Thanks, Kelly!
Posted by Wesley J (# 6075) on
:
And thanks, Eutychus.
Sadness!
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This and probably this. The assertion being that police treat you differently depending on what colour/ethnicity you are.
Smartypants. Anyway, what he said.
Sorry to have ninja'd you.
I followed the Malheur standoff from about day one. I couldn't believe the acquittal, although prosecutors ought to get their charges correct right from the outset (and AIUI the Bundys are still in jail over similarly serious charges relating to their ranch).
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This and probably this. The assertion being that police treat you differently depending on what colour/ethnicity you are.
In the Dakota case, there's also the additional factor of interfering with big business, AKA big oil. I think they're right to try to get the pipe line redirected, FWIW. But big corporations have pulled this kind of crap on indigenous people in Latin America. Rummaging in my mental attic, ISTM that the tribes usually had to use violence to get the corporations to back off. And even that didn't always work.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
It seems as if protests against trump will soon fizzle out.
Until January 20th.
Guessing it won't be long before that big red tie gets waved at some place like, say... Iran? A little foreign war usually works wonders.
Anyone else notice military jets roaring around on Wednesday in U.K.? Always been Downing St. Policy whenever something unexpected makes Joe Public a touch nervy.
Controlling the masses , it really is an art form you know.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Guessing it won't be long before that big red tie gets waved at some place like, say... Iran? A little foreign war usually works wonders.
Oh yes. Iran is toast. And another generation of American servicepeople will be killed and maimed to make it so. (Well, a "surge" in the numbers -- none of our ongoing wars has ceased.)
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Pray God it doesn't turn out like that.
What if all those called up/forced to serve/whatever in the US military simply said to the Orange Trumpeter 'Stuff your war - you can go, but I'm staying home'?
IJ
P.S. I'm not so naïve as to not realise that there will always be some who will simply enjoy kicking shit out of the 'ragheads' (a term I once heard a colleague of mine use to describe people from middle-Eastern countries... )
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
No, he will gin up the racism and nationalism as he can do so well, so that everybody will fall in line.
My daughter and son are both US Army officers, and my daughter is married to another officer. I can tell you that it is not the duty of soldiers to argue. That's the job, God help us, of the civilian leadership. Once the decision is made, the armed forces obey. Even though there are loopholes for war crimes, that's not going to kick in in a big conflict.
It frosts me that every pol making these decisions will have, carefully, never served in the armed forces, if necessary dodging the draft with faux medical issues. And to a man they have taken great care to not have their children serve.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I can tell you that it is not the duty of soldiers to argue. That's the job, God help us, of the civilian leadership. Once the decision is made, the armed forces obey.
And rightfully so. We don't want to have a country where the military picks and chooses which orders it likes.
But I wish people wouldn't sign up for service in our armed forces in the first place. They've been misused for decades. If people simply wouldn't serve, they'd have to reinstate the draft, and that would make it a lot harder to embark upon so many military misadventures.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
Can't see so many choosing the army as a career in this country if you risk getting a knock on the door some ten or fifteen years after active service simply to be hung up as No-win-no-fee bait.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If people simply wouldn't serve, they'd have to reinstate the draft, and that would make it a lot harder to embark upon so many military misadventures.
Relying on the draft certainly didn't keep us out of Viet Nam.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Neph was being courted by recruiters dangling the G. I. Bill in front of him, and I quietly send him links about various broken educational promises given by recruiters.
He'd been leaning no anyway, but he officially said, f-- this afterward. since then he's apparently become a ferocious Democrat. I wilt with pride.
I respect the sacrifices of the Armed Forces, but the main reason I would advise young folk to stay out is that the country's leaders haven't kept faith with soldiers. They use them a rhetorical tool to manipulate people into supporting war, then forget about them.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If people simply wouldn't serve, they'd have to reinstate the draft, and that would make it a lot harder to embark upon so many military misadventures.
Relying on the draft certainly didn't keep us out of Viet Nam.
Right, but it would be fiendishly difficult to reinstate the draft. It's not the people who want their children to be shredded, it's the munitions manufacturers and their stooges in Congress. And the people could make it very uncomfortable for the stooges at primary season.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
The Tiny Fingered One promised the veterans he'd fix everything. He also grossly insulted a number of war heroes. So who knows, what he'll do.
If you want educational benefits out of the military system, ROTC is the way to go. They pay for your college, and then you serve. As with The TFO, always get them to pay in advance. Both my kids went ROTC; my daughter got a four-year ride to Stanford, and calculates that the US government has invested the value of a Blackhawk helicopter into her education and training. She went to Afghanistan and came back, and is now using her GI Bill benefits to go to law school. Alas, she is far too intelligent to ever run for office.
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on
:
So much for "the people rising up against the establishment".
"Hello Murca? This is The Establishment calling..."
Posted by Stephen (# 40) on
:
There's nothing quite like keeping it 'strictly within the family' ( to quote from After the funeral) now is there? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Teekeey Misha (# 18604) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
There's nothing quite like keeping it 'strictly within the family' ( to quote from After the funeral) now is there?
Wasn't it Sir Thomas Beecham who said "one should try everything once, except incest and morris dancing"?
Posted by molopata (# 9933) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Guessing it won't be long before that big red tie gets waved at some place like, say... Iran? A little foreign war usually works wonders.
Oh yes. Iran is toast. And another generation of American servicepeople will be killed and maimed to make it so. (Well, a "surge" in the numbers -- none of our ongoing wars has ceased.)
And there was me hoping that maybe, maybe, because Trumpkin is as yet so unaligned, he may have the temerity to dump the whole Saudia-Arabia love-in and realign US politics on the Arabian Peninsula to something that might just reflect the West's long-term interests.
There again, it's probably me in a state of psychological denial of what is more likely to come, clutching at whatever straws I can get my hands on.
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
I'm not going to post a video link and force the hosts to watch it but it isn't hard to find on Google. The show Saturday Night Live opened the show this week with the person who played Hilary in their pre election sketches performing Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. I found it moving.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Mousethief posted it on the Cohen thread in All Saints. It's extraordinary.
Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on
:
I posted a link to it on the Aftermath thread in Purg. It's short enough and beautiful enough that I figured it wouldn't be too hard for the H/As to watch.
It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. I hope Hillary watches it, and puts it on her phone or something.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
I was thinking that, too. I bet Ms. Clinton will love this.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I'm not going to post a video link and force the hosts to watch it but it isn't hard to find on Google. The show Saturday Night Live opened the show this week with the person who played Hilary in their pre election sketches performing Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. I found it moving.
When I watched it I broke down and cried. Again.
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
:
Ditto. And she's a Ghostbuster too. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Posted by simontoad (# 18096) on
:
wow, thanks for that. I hadn't made the connexion.
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