Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
'Cause posting your threadcrap in the AS thread as a link is such an act of passive-aggressive bravery.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:Letting the target of a Hell call know that they have been called is just good manners.
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
'Cause posting your threadcrap in the AS thread as a link is such an act of passive-aggressive bravery.
quote:As I said, in the other thread, he sent one to me. I was out shopping when it arrived so I didn't respond immediately. Hence his fit of pique.
Originally posted by Gee D:
What I especially took umbrage at was his comment that PMs did no good, the strong inference being that I had not responded to one. He has yet to write.
quote:If your hero is a man who refuses to be held to account by the people he leads, this is perhaps not surprising. Thankfully, he can't arrange our summary execution.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
He's sent me a PM too, saying that he won't be making an appearance.
Feel free to draw your own conclusions.
quote:It's a kind of undercover flounce.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
He's sent me a PM too, saying that he won't be making an appearance.
Feel free to draw your own conclusions.
quote:It's the left-wing version of all those Christians who voted for Trump so that they could get a Supreme Court judge who agrees with them, regardless of the impact his presidency will have on anyone else.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Christians posting love for an "ends justifies the means"* dictator is rather bizarre to me.
quote:I can sorta kinda maybe comprehend it if I redefine "justice" to mean only "social justice" (i.e. redistribution) and jettison any idea that it might be linked to concepts such as freedom of speech and the right to a fair trial. Once that's done it's easy to connect the dots that anyone who is opposed to redistribution is an enemy of "justice", therefore a criminal, therefore to be locked up or executed.
Originally posted by RuthW:
Honestly, to me it doesn't even make that much sense. Zappa said Castro was one of his "heroes of justice" -- which makes my brain leak a little bit of goo every time I try to understand it. How on earth a Christian -- a priest! -- can think someone who executed thousands of political opponents was in any way an exemplar of justice ... no. I can't wrap my mind around it.
quote:Oh come on, even you can see that is bullshit.
I'm definitely not a fan of the sort of society such thinking would create, but with posts such as the one you mention it's hard to deny that a number of left-wingers seem to like it. Which presumably means that they'd want to see the likes of you and I locked up or executed were they ever to gain the power to do so.
quote:Whatever helps you sleep at night, I suppose.
Just one more reason why I tend to vote Tory.
quote:I'm not particularly fussed about Castro and Cuba, so don't really know all that much - some stuff on TV recently plus bits and pieces here and there.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
And Castro fails more than one of those. Democratic governments do sometimes as well, but there is a chance to address this.
quote:Except he lived in a style to which his people had no access. I don't care if the figures of 3/4 of a billion pounds is accurate. Unless that was a revolving stream of cash, it would not have significantly improved the people's lives of 6 decades.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Castro certainly failed in terms of freedom of political expression. But, by most accounts, he did as well as could be expected under the circumstances in relation to fair wages, equal access to education and health care.
quote:No, that should not be forgotten. But neither should the fact tha he participated in those circumstances. He shares much of the blame for them.
Of course Cuba was a victim of outside interference as well, and those circumstances shouldn't be forgotten.
quote:The difference being choice. But Castro is of the "might makes right" mold that his champions so hate in capitalism.
Basically, from all the way over here and just some impressionistic anecdotes, Castro displayed enough good qualities for people to admire him and enough bad qualities for people to hate him. But, not enough good qualities to be a saint, and not enough bad to be the devil incarnate. Pretty much the same as most political leaders really.
quote:Well, I explicitly didn't say he was a saint. I'm not sure anyone else has called him a saint either.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But it does not make him a saint, only better than some of his peers.
quote:It's difficult to accept that as fact - or at least as "whole fact". Maybe he lived in more comfort than the man-in-the-street and maybe he didn't (and he probably did). My difficulty with this is that the assertions that he lived in luxury all come from unreliable sources (ie the CIA and anti-Castro Cubans in the USA.) I haven't seen any real evidence that he lived in anything like the luxury of, say, the President of the USA. Sure he probably had a more comfortable existence than most people in Cuba (and probably than most people outside Cuba too), but the "he lived in luxury while his people suffered" argument just sounds too much like another exploding cigar when it comes from the sources it does.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Except he lived in a style to which his people had no access.<snip> However, he did not lack for the things his people did. He lived in comfort, they did not.
quote:You great twat. Canada has a health system. The UK has a health system. Neither the UK nor Canada operate under a repressive communist dictatorship. Ergo, it is possible to establish a health system without murdering and imprisoning your political opponents.
And yes, I am aware that he had faults. He was fallible, but he was for Cuba. Unlike Americans , he set up a health care system. I give him points for that, because I am also the beneficiary of a health care system in Canada (not perfect, but which one is? The education system works pretty well too.
quote:since you can't even go to the effort of working it out.
Private messages don't do any good; but I started this thread in AS for a reason. Take your negative posts elsewhere.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:I resemble that remark.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I have a life. Unlike some sad cases here.
quote:I have said as much more than once.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Being better than his peers should at least count for something - at the very least not being vilified more than his peers.
quote:No, I am sorry, this is rubbish. Terrible things are still terrible whether or not there are worse offenders.
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
I'm not going to sit here and type that Castro was a saint, but nor am I willing to damn him as quickly as others. (Largely, I guess, because I'm not convinced that the terrible offences he may have committed aren't committed by "democratic" nations all the time.)
quote:Remind me, who was complaining that PMs did not work? And how long did that person wait before issuing these complaints?
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I have a life. Unlike some sad cases here.
quote:Still waiting for you Christians justify the love for a mass murdering, repressive dictator.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Go Pete Go!
quote:You first. Starting with your favourite leader from any freaking anywhere.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[QUOTE]Still waiting for you Christians justify the love for a mass murdering, repressive dictator.
quote:The boxing in is 50% America`s doing.
And what SPK said. If after 57 years, you still need to lock your citizens in, you have not liberated anyone.
quote:When am I gonna get my turn?
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Go Pete Go!
Cuba not being a client state of the Yanquis is a problem yes?
"Look away across the bay
Yankee gunboat come this way
Uncle Sam gonna save the day
Come tomorrow we all gonna pay.
Burn baby burn..." (Bruce Cockburn, 1974 "Burn Baby Burn")
quote:This is a stupid statement. Even if every leader everywhere were a mass murder, that would still not make Castro a hero or saint. How many people has Justin Trudeau murdered?
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:You first. Starting with your favourite leader from any freaking anywhere.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[QUOTE]Still waiting for you Christians justify the love for a mass murdering, repressive dictator.
quote:I think we could argue percentages, but I never said America wasn't at fault as well. It remains that Castro chose the path and held to it after his sugar mama* died. And did not allow his people the choice to change it or even discuss it out loud.
quote:The boxing in is 50% America`s doing.
And what SPK said. If after 57 years, you still need to lock your citizens in, you have not liberated anyone.
quote:Zappa called him a hero and Uncle Pete is fairly well implying his saintliness.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Who claimed Castro was a saint?
quote:And fuck off you tosser. I'm not praising anyone who murdered people, am I? Simply because I hold Castro to his crimes does not mean I absolve anyone else of theirs. A crime is a crime regardless of the politics of the person committing it.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The first stupid question was your's.
quote:You remind me of the Socialist Caucus the NDP. Pampered, Middle Class Airhead. Just because you had a Che poster above your bed in high school doesn't make you a Lefty.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Who claimed Castro was a saint?
The first stupid question was your's.
quote:Castro was a fallible man. And definitely not a Catlick, so he will never be a saint. I did not bring religion into this thread. You and others did. Religion has no place in politics, Trump and Modi, notwithstanding. And don't include me as a Christian.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Zappa called him a hero and Uncle Pete is fairly well implying his saintliness.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Who claimed Castro was a saint?
I'm not proposing roasting marshmallows on his writhing body in Hell, but opening the Pearly Gates for him is wrong as well.
quote:Che was an idiot. We didn't have posters in my day. We had nothing, being refugee kids we made no political anything known until the Co-op openned. But it was the Medicare strike that formed things.
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:You remind me of the Socialist Caucus the NDP. Pampered, Middle Class Airhead. Just because you had a Che poster above your bed in high school doesn't make you a Lefty.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Who claimed Castro was a saint?
The first stupid question was your's.
quote:And having opened the thread on the wrong board in the first instance, you complained that neither Callan nor I had responded to PM - when you did not even send one to me, and you'd allowed less than an hour to Callan. Doesn't carry much weight with me when you now say that you have a life.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Ah, I see. Because I signed on to Ship of fools over 11 years ago, I am presumed not to have a private life, but must continue to sit here clicking refresh. Fuck that, buddy boy. I have a life. Unlike some sad cases here.
quote:Like the Hungarians who emigrated after WW II. Those who left in '45 and '46 had reason to fear a more democratic government. Those who fled in '56 had tried the new régime, found it even more undemocratic than those before the war and that their lot in life had not improved. You could say the same of the East Germans who left in '45 and compare them to those who left after '53 - an uprising started by construction workers.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
____________________________________
There were several waves of émigrés from Cuba. One could dismiss the first as rich and middle class feeing because they would lose their advantage. But each successive wave came from lower and lower down the economic scale. How is it that people fled such a glorious leader of a wonderous paradise?
quote:I think morals and ethics do have a place in politics. If you don't, then that explains your devotion to Castro.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Religion has no place in politics, Trump and Modi, notwithstanding. And don't include me as a Christian.
quote:I think it's a virtual certainty that among the hundreds to thousands executed by the Revolutionary government there were a number of people who were not guilty of anything; or at least not guilty of anything beyond owning property or being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
it's not correct to characterise this as killing political opponents, as if they were peaceful human rights activists. These were the brutal enforcers of the fallen dictator.
quote:This doesn't follow. They could be escaping because they were comparatively rich and were being made to accept a less flashy lifestyle so other people in the country could share the wealth also. That's just one reason; others doubtless exist.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If Castro's Cuba is such a wonderful place, again, why all the people fleeing? A million escapees can't be wrong.
quote:On the basis that the UK crapped all over the world for centuries, gave birth to the US through shitty administration of its colonies, and has a tendency to support lots of American foreign policy (which would be amusing if that policy weren't so horrific), I don't think anyone from the UK has the right to criticize the US. So shut up, lapdog.
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
On the basis that US Guantanamo still exists, I don't think anybody from the US has any right to criticise Castro for his civil rights record. So sue me.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:Extrajudicial killings happen in every jurisdiction, including the US and UK. Each should be investigated and those responsible prosecuted, but single cases aren't necessarily indicative of anything broader.
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I think it's a virtual certainty that among the hundreds to thousands executed by the Revolutionary government there were a number of people who were not guilty of anything; or at least not guilty of anything beyond owning property or being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
More recently, there is strong suspicion that an actual human rights activist was indeed the victim of an extrajudicial killing by the Cuban government. HRF.
quote:In a slightly earlier post I did mention this. The first wave of emigrants did indeed contain the rich and middle class. Each subsequent wave was poorer than the last.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:This doesn't follow. They could be escaping because they were comparatively rich and were being made to accept a less flashy lifestyle so other people in the country could share the wealth also. That's just one reason; others doubtless exist.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If Castro's Cuba is such a wonderful place, again, why all the people fleeing? A million escapees can't be wrong.
quote:No-one, who wasn't a fully paid up Tankie, ever came up with these excuses when people were shot trying to cross the Berlin Wall. Why is it that Castro gets a free pass, whilst the likes of Honecker and Jaruzelski don't?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:This doesn't follow. They could be escaping because they were comparatively rich and were being made to accept a less flashy lifestyle so other people in the country could share the wealth also. That's just one reason; others doubtless exist.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If Castro's Cuba is such a wonderful place, again, why all the people fleeing? A million escapees can't be wrong.
quote:Generally, when people declare someone a paragon of justice it means they would like to see that person's approach to justice replicated across the world. Castro is being declared a paragon of justice by some, and his approach to justice included the incarceration or execution of those who opposed his policies.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:Oh come on, even you can see that is bullshit.
I'm definitely not a fan of the sort of society such thinking would create, but with posts such as the one you mention it's hard to deny that a number of left-wingers seem to like it. Which presumably means that they'd want to see the likes of you and I locked up or executed were they ever to gain the power to do so.
quote:That's demonstrably false. The US has a policy of granting an automatic right of abode for any Cuban who manages to reach it, which is the exact opposite of them being culpable for the fact that the vast majority of Cubans are not permitted to leave their country.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:The boxing in is 50% America`s doing.
And what SPK said. If after 57 years, you still need to lock your citizens in, you have not liberated anyone.
quote:Yay.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Well, here is the response you have certainly been waiting with bated breath.
quote:Are healthcare and education more important than human rights and democracy? I think not.
And yes, I am aware that he had faults. He was fallible, but he was for Cuba. Unlike Americans , he set up a health care system. I give him points for that, because I am also the beneficiary of a health care system in Canada (not perfect, but which one is? The education system works pretty well too.
quote:Or to put it another way, anyone who opposes capitalism or big business is your hero regardless of anything else they may do.
The main thing I like about Castro is that he kept Cuba from becoming a source of cheap labour for American capitalism, kept them from cheap but excellent cigars, and, most of all, kept his country from being a cheap foodbasket for the American corporate maw.
quote:Completely agree. I feel the same when people profess support for Trump. They either think xenophobia, populism and misogyny are good things, OK things, or bad things but outweighed by lower taxes. All of these are profound misjudgements which I react to. If they describe Trump as an unqualified good option then we are closer to the first two options and I feel those unqualified statements are quite close to a personal attack on groups of people.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Castro is being declared a paragon of justice by some, and his approach to justice included the incarceration or execution of those who opposed his policies.
quote:But, even that last statement needs to be split into (at least) two.
Originally posted by Callan:
It strikes me that the language of "he had faults" is appropriate for he left the loo seat up, or he had a bad temper, or he liked a drink a bit too much.
Not: he ran a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship for fifty years and murdered and imprisoned his political opponents.
quote:If anybody round here said the same thing about fascist dictatorships you'd excoriate them.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
"he ran a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship for fifty years". Not necessarily a bad thing (nor necessarily a good thing). That's going to depend upon your views of Marxist-Leninism as a political theory, and how well you think he actually implemented the theory.
quote:Are you seriously defending dictatorship as a valid form of government, so long as it gives you the results you want? What would you think of anyone from different political persuasions advancing such an argument?
And, it's going to depend on how you view dictatorship as a form of government - is a democracy that produces President Trump any better than a benign dictatorship? Dictatorship of some form (eg: a monarchy) has been the most common form of government in history, and it hasn't all been bad.
quote:The whole Marxist-Leninist dictatorship thing has been pretty much tested to destruction. The outcomes were, a massive body count, the routine violation of human rights, economic stagnation and, in the early period of such regimes, some reasonably good gains in terms of economic modernisation, health care and literacy somewhat undermined, in the most egregious cases, of mass starvation caused by the collectivisation of agriculture. Oh, and a side order of imperialism and militarism to boot. There's no point coming over all J.C. Flannel about this. Castro's regime was one of the better variants, as Marxist-Leninist regimes go, but that's really akin to saying that General Franco was a better ruler than some of his ideological soulmates.
"he ran a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship for fifty years". Not necessarily a bad thing (nor necessarily a good thing).
quote:But she has not been and likely will not be.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of course, when someone can suggest someone else be imprisoned over their choice of email server, we know that other governments aren't paragons of virtue on that front either.
quote:The USA embargoed the country. Completely. If that ain't boxing in, what is? It spend some $ 1 billion trying to bring him down. Castro's legacy is mixed, however much you want to say it is all wrong and bad. Tens of thousands of doctors and teachers trained, lower infant mortality and illiteracy rates than other Latin American countries, agrarian reform and breakup of large landlord holdings. Along with imprisonment of opposition, human rights violations, mistakes in policies which lead to famine. Do we have the ability so soon to discuss him in balanced ways? Like many other leaders, he did good things and bad things.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:That's demonstrably false. The US has a policy of granting an automatic right of abode for any Cuban who manages to reach it, which is the exact opposite of them being culpable for the fact that the vast majority of Cubans are not permitted to leave their country.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:The boxing in is 50% America`s doing.
And what SPK said. If after 57 years, you still need to lock your citizens in, you have not liberated anyone.
quote:America certainly refused to do business of any kind with Cuba, but there are lots of other countries in the world that were perfectly free to trade with it as they wished. It's not like the US had a massive blockade around the whole country preventing anything from getting in or out.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The USA embargoed the country. Completely.
quote:Go back and check my post on the Purg thread. I specifically mentioned the good things.
Castro's legacy is mixed, however much you want to say it is all wrong and bad.
quote:The problem is that you're making it sound like the good things balance out the bad things, as if a few more doctors and teachers are sufficient to outweigh oppression and human rights violations. I mean, even Hitler introduced massive infrastructure projects and virtually eliminated unemployment but you don't hear people saying he had a "mixed legacy" or "did good things and bad things".
Tens of thousands of doctors and teachers trained, lower infant mortality and illiteracy rates than other Latin American countries, agrarian reform and breakup of large landlord holdings. Along with imprisonment of opposition, human rights violations, mistakes in policies which lead to famine. Do we have the ability so soon to discuss him in balanced ways? Like many other leaders, he did good things and bad things.
quote:Though I think the example is a little too far, it is still a valid point.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I mean, even Hitler introduced massive infrastructure projects and virtually eliminated unemployment but you don't hear people saying he had a "mixed legacy" or "did good things and bad things".
quote:Which is precisely why I wrote: "I'm not going to sit here and type that Castro was a saint." I noted that I am not as quick to damn Castro for doing what others do; I did not suggest that what he did was not terrible or unworthy of censure.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I am sorry, this is rubbish. Terrible things are still terrible whether or not there are worse offenders.
quote:And where did I do so?
But murdering captured opposition is hardly a thing a Christian should applaud anyway.
quote:Oh, and that would be the third thing I haven't said.
How is it that people fled such a glorious leader of a wonderous paradise?
quote:Which would be thing number four I haven't said. You're shouting and stamping your feet about things you are pretending I said. All we need to complete the scene is for you to stroppily dismiss something as "stupid" and the petulant tantrum is complete.
Oppression and suppression are wrong. Because Castro helped the poor makes him better than some, but it does not make him worthy of praise when weighed with that.
quote:And I call 'HOUSE' in this game of lilBiddha bingo.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:This is a stupid statement.
quote:What an interesting* comment.
I'm not proposing roasting marshmallows on his writhing body in Hell, but opening the Pearly Gates for him is wrong as well.
quote:Who's giving him a free pass? No one on this thread. Non sequitur.
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:No-one, who wasn't a fully paid up Tankie, ever came up with these excuses when people were shot trying to cross the Berlin Wall. Why is it that Castro gets a free pass, whilst the likes of Honecker and Jaruzelski don't?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:This doesn't follow. They could be escaping because they were comparatively rich and were being made to accept a less flashy lifestyle so other people in the country could share the wealth also. That's just one reason; others doubtless exist.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If Castro's Cuba is such a wonderful place, again, why all the people fleeing? A million escapees can't be wrong.
quote:{Not pushing any particular view of Fidel or Cuba, except to look at different facets.}
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:That's demonstrably false. The US has a policy of granting an automatic right of abode for any Cuban who manages to reach it, which is the exact opposite of them being culpable for the fact that the vast majority of Cubans are not permitted to leave their country.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:The boxing in is 50% America`s doing.
And what SPK said. If after 57 years, you still need to lock your citizens in, you have not liberated anyone.
quote:--
On October 6, 1960 Senator John F. Kennedy, in the midst of his campaign for the U.S. Presidency, decried Batista's relationship with the U.S. government and criticized the Eisenhower administration for supporting him:
"Fulgencio Batista murdered 20,000 Cubans in seven years ... and he turned Democratic Cuba into a complete police state—destroying every individual liberty. Yet our aid to his regime, and the ineptness of our policies, enabled Batista to invoke the name of the United States in support of his reign of terror. Administration spokesmen publicly praised Batista—hailed him as a staunch ally and a good friend—at a time when Batista was murdering thousands, destroying the last vestiges of freedom, and stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the Cuban people, and we failed to press for free elections."[41]
quote:
"I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country's policies during the Batista regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins. In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear."
— U.S. President John F. Kennedy, to Jean Daniel, October 24, 1963
quote:It was this bit I was calling rubbish.
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:Which is precisely why I wrote: "I'm not going to sit here and type that Castro was a saint." I noted that I am not as quick to damn Castro for doing what others do; I did not suggest that what he did was not terrible or unworthy of censure.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I am sorry, this is rubbish. Terrible things are still terrible whether or not there are worse offenders.
quote:Bad behaviour should be condemned no matter if other people do it as well.
(Largely, I guess, because I'm not convinced that the terrible offences he may have committed aren't committed by "democratic" nations all the time.)
quote:I would agree. Uncle Pete seems to be of the opinion that the evil done was justified.
Originally posted by Gee D:
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
quote:None of what follows that statement has anything at all to do with Cubans being prohibited from leaving the country.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:{Not pushing any particular view of Fidel or Cuba, except to look at different facets.}
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:That's demonstrably false. The US has a policy of granting an automatic right of abode for any Cuban who manages to reach it, which is the exact opposite of them being culpable for the fact that the vast majority of Cubans are not permitted to leave their country.
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:The boxing in is 50% America`s doing.
And what SPK said. If after 57 years, you still need to lock your citizens in, you have not liberated anyone.
Actually, the US has had a complicated role in Cuba.
quote:You do realise there is a really handy URL code that links directly to another post? Using that means others don't need to translate from whatever time zone you're in to identify when a post was written, and then to go and find it.
Originally posted by Gee D:
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
quote:Do you also have better things to do than answering these points?
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I've better things to do with life than spend time doing that.
quote:Yes, I do. But, then I have better things to do than read a thread about what people think of a dead bloke I've not taken much notice of - except someone raised a stink in the Styx and I was wanting to keep on top of things.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Do you also have better things to do than answering these points?
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I've better things to do with life than spend time doing that.
quote:That feels a little bit like Romanlion claiming he's not a supporter of Hillary or Trump on the US election thread. If you only ever attack side A but keep excusing or downplaying the excesses of side B then you're a de facto supporter of side B.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Although, of course, I'm not actually at either end. I have more time for Marxists than Fascists.
quote:If you think that you really are a silly tosspot. Evil is never justified. But better to be a Marxist state than a failed client state of the USA
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:I would agree. Uncle Pete seems to be of the opinion that the evil done was justified.
Originally posted by Gee D:
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
quote:Which Marxist state would that be? You do appear to acknowledge that there are client states of the USA that are not "failed".
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
quote:If you think that you really are a silly tosspot. Evil is never justified. But better to be a Marxist state than a failed client state of the USA
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:I would agree. Uncle Pete seems to be of the opinion that the evil done was justified.
Originally posted by Gee D:
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
quote:Eh? Run that by me again. I'm sure there must be sense in there somewhere.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:That feels a little bit like Romanlion claiming he's not a supporter of Hillary or Trump on the US election thread. If you only ever attack side A but keep excusing or downplaying the excesses of side B then you're a de facto supporter of side B.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Although, of course, I'm not actually at either end. I have more time for Marxists than Fascists.
quote:Deepest red, surely?
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The SWP can barely get a dozen people together before they fall out over the precise shade of red for the flag.
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Evil is never justified.
quote:There are only two possibilities. Either you don't think Castro did anything evil, or you are lying when you say evil is never justified.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Farewell to a great, great man. Cuba was fortunate to have him over the last 55 years.
quote:You also spend more time making excuses for the evils of marxists than fascists (the latter amount of time being "none").
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I admit it, I spend more time attacking the ideas of fascists than marxists.
quote:Geez. Binary much? Is there anything in your world that can be and and not just either/or?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Evil is never justified.quote:There are only two possibilities. Either you don't think Castro did anything evil, or you are lying when you say evil is never justified.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Farewell to a great, great man. Cuba was fortunate to have him over the last 55 years.
quote:Well, there does seem to be a fairly wide distance between a "great, great man" and one who did great evil whatever good he also did.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Geez. Binary much? Is there anything in your world that can be and and not just either/or?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Evil is never justified.quote:There are only two possibilities. Either you don't think Castro did anything evil, or you are lying when you say evil is never justified.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Farewell to a great, great man. Cuba was fortunate to have him over the last 55 years.
Clearly not. There's a whole spectrum of nuance that you ignore, either deliberately, or because you're pathologically incapable of embracing it. It makes interacting with you verging on the impossible.
quote:Watch out, he'll understand that to mean that you want to gulag him.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Geez. Binary much? Is there anything in your world that can be and and not just either/or?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Evil is never justified.quote:There are only two possibilities. Either you don't think Castro did anything evil, or you are lying when you say evil is never justified.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Farewell to a great, great man. Cuba was fortunate to have him over the last 55 years.
Clearly not. There's a whole spectrum of nuance that you ignore, either deliberately, or because you're pathologically incapable of embracing it. It makes interacting with you verging on the impossible.
quote:ironically appropriate to a section of your post. Though, despite this being hell, I'll admit not all of it was bollocks. Part was just naive. Castro was never going to be benevolent. He lied to his own from the very beginning. That he was better than any other communist dictator is a good thing, even if it is a very low bar.
Now, this is Hell. You don't have to be accurate, or even in the ball park
quote:Do you have any examples of my "making excuses for the evils of marxists"? But, if you want balance, just in case I ever have done so, the trains ran on time.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:You also spend more time making excuses for the evils of marxists than fascists (the latter amount of time being "none").
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I admit it, I spend more time attacking the ideas of fascists than marxists.
quote:Of course there was the war and that nasty holocaust business, and if that was all we dwelt on then we'd see him as a monster. But Hitler did many good things for the people of Germany as well, and you can't just paint him as evil unless you want to be a nuance-ignoring binary thinker.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, increasingly repressive actions at home, and that whole thing with the missiles paints a completely different picture. If that was all we dwelt on, then we see him as a monster.
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Do you have any examples of my "making excuses for the evils of marxists"?
quote:That sure sounds like you were saying Castro was no worse than any other political leader.
Basically, from all the way over here and just some impressionistic anecdotes, Castro displayed enough good qualities for people to admire him and enough bad qualities for people to hate him. But, not enough good qualities to be a saint, and not enough bad to be the devil incarnate. Pretty much the same as most political leaders really.
quote:And if you ignore the context of the Treaty of Versailles that we forced on Germany - which you probably do - and the subsequent hyperinflation of the Mark, and the US-originated late 20s depression - which you probably also ignore, or attribute to Gordon Brown - you'll have no idea why the Germans turned to Hitler in the first place.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Of course there was the war and that nasty holocaust business, and if that was all we dwelt on then we'd see him as a monster. But Hitler did many good things for the people of Germany as well, and you can't just paint him as evil unless you want to be a nuance-ignoring binary thinker.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, increasingly repressive actions at home, and that whole thing with the missiles paints a completely different picture. If that was all we dwelt on, then we see him as a monster.
quote:Hang on a mo, some of us were objecting to the love in for Fidel on the grounds that he was a dictator. None of us was objecting to the fact that he arose in a historical context, as all dictators do. The piece of epic country matters that caused this thread was a post in All Saints which included the line: "Cuba was very lucky to have him for 55 years" to which the only adequate response is to paraphrase Brecht and say: "unlucky the land which has need of heroes for 55 freaking years".
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:And if you ignore the context of the Treaty of Versailles that we forced on Germany - which you probably do - and the subsequent hyperinflation of the Mark, and the US-originated late 20s depression - which you probably also ignore, or attribute to Gordon Brown - you'll have no idea why the Germans turned to Hitler in the first place.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Of course there was the war and that nasty holocaust business, and if that was all we dwelt on then we'd see him as a monster. But Hitler did many good things for the people of Germany as well, and you can't just paint him as evil unless you want to be a nuance-ignoring binary thinker.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, increasingly repressive actions at home, and that whole thing with the missiles paints a completely different picture. If that was all we dwelt on, then we see him as a monster.
So yes, you're talking shit yet again.
quote:I'm also suggesting that. But 'outweighs the gains' is the important phrase here. First and foremost, it suggests that there were gains, and being a dictator doesn't mean you have to use the aggregated wealth and power just to gold plate your taps.
Originally posted by Callan:
I'm suggesting that we extend the same interpretive charity to Castro. There were reasons why he acted as he did, grounded in politics and economics - no-one is saying that he was a motiveless malignity or that he gazed into the Temporal Schism at a young age - but, even when those socio-economic causes are taken into consideration, the establishment of a dictatorship and Cuba's history of economic stagnation outweighs the gains in health and literacy and the failures of US foreign policy.
quote:I've been agreeing with you about cubas healthcare and education systems the whole time. We just give them different weightings when balanced against everything else.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm also suggesting that. But 'outweighs the gains' is the important phrase here. First and foremost, it suggests that there were gains, and being a dictator doesn't mean you have to use the aggregated wealth and power just to gold plate your taps.
quote:I could say the same thing, but with the countries and political opinions reversed.
Yes, Pete was talking out of his arse. I wouldn't have wanted to live in Castro's Cuba. But I would have wanted to live in Pinochet's Chile even less, or suffered the Contra attacks in Nicaragua, because as a leftist, I'd probably have been left alone in Cuba, but not in the other two countries.
quote:For us to be two sides of the same coin I'd have to be in favour of right-wing dictatorships. I am most assuredly not. I am against all forms of dictatorship*, regardless of which wing they're on.
Marvin and Pete seem to be two sides of the same coin. Both could do with the application of the clue bat.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:You will break the bat before driving in the clue.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Marvin and Pete seem to be two sides of the same coin. Both could do with the application of the clue bat.
quote:Had I done that, you would have had to click on the link - more work to be done.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:You do realise there is a really handy URL code that links directly to another post? Using that means others don't need to translate from whatever time zone you're in to identify when a post was written, and then to go and find it.
Originally posted by Gee D:
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
But, if you want to make people work hard to figure out what you're referring to then go ahead. I'll just ignore you, I've better things to do with life than spend time doing that.
quote:Maybe you could read it that way. I was aiming more at "on the spectrum between good and bad as every other political leader" - and, most would agree Castro was better than many, though worse than most.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Do you have any examples of my "making excuses for the evils of marxists"?quote:That sure sounds like you were saying Castro was no worse than any other political leader.
Basically, from all the way over here and just some impressionistic anecdotes, Castro displayed enough good qualities for people to admire him and enough bad qualities for people to hate him. But, not enough good qualities to be a saint, and not enough bad to be the devil incarnate. Pretty much the same as most political leaders really.
quote:The idea of links is to reduce the amount of work needed to get to somewhere on the internet. I still haven't found the post you referenced, but if you'd posted a link then I'd have gone straight there. Simples.
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:Had I done that, you would have had to click on the link - more work to be done.
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:You do realise there is a really handy URL code that links directly to another post? Using that means others don't need to translate from whatever time zone you're in to identify when a post was written, and then to go and find it.
Originally posted by Gee D:
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
But, if you want to make people work hard to figure out what you're referring to then go ahead. I'll just ignore you, I've better things to do with life than spend time doing that.
quote:You are a dick. Either practice your UBB or GTFO.
Originally posted by Gee D:
I am deliberately saving from you the onerous task of clicking on a link.
quote:I thought it was only the Usians who did not do sarcasm and irony.
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
@GeeD - if you identify a post by time, the time you see is the time posted as in your time zone. The time everyone else sees is the time in their time zone. So 6:37 in Australia is no help to anyone the other side of the world. If you want people to know what you mean, you will have to link the post, because, at the moment, you are expecting everyone outside your time zone to do the calculations to work out which post you are referring to.
Now, in your world clicking on a link may be more onerous than calculating relative time zones, but not in mine, or I suspect most Shipmates.
quote:I'll save you from clicking on a link by not linking it.
Originally posted by Gee D:
Has anyone seen an apology, public or private from Uncle Pete for his All Saints post?
quote:When shall that be?
Originally posted by Gee D:
I totally understand the timezone issue, always have;'always shall. Grew up with it and shall die with it.
quote:Errr...I don't see that Pete did anything wrong. People frequently start AS memorial threads for famous people. IME, they're generally not used to slice and dice the dead person--though there might be a mention that the person had a complicated life. But AS memorial threads aren't for angrily discussing what a monster a person was.
Originally posted by Gee D:
At least I'm open and honest. Has anyone seen an apology, public or private from Uncle Pete for his All Saints post?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:Aren't we all? So far this thread has taught me:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:Errr...I don't see that Pete did anything wrong. People frequently start AS memorial threads for famous people. IME, they're generally not used to slice and dice the dead person--though there might be a mention that the person had a complicated life. But AS memorial threads aren't for angrily discussing what a monster a person was.
Originally posted by Gee D:
At least I'm open and honest. Has anyone seen an apology, public or private from Uncle Pete for his All Saints post?
None of that prevents starting a Purg or Hell thread about the dead person. If you hate Castro, fine. You start a thread in Purg or Hell, and have at it.
Is there a piece I'm missing?
quote:The resulting Styx thread lead to this Hell thread.
Private messages don't do any good; but I started this thread in AS for a reason. Take your negative posts elsewhere
quote:Oh fer cryin' out loud. Capitalists are a type of the "alt-right"? All of them?
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
I also confess to being an adult socialist. I am not a capitalist or any other type of alt.right person.
quote:As for me, I never said I hated Castro. I am not sure anyone has said they hated him.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...and, yet, those of you all right and righteous about hating Fidel didn't start a thread calling *him* to Hell. Why's that? Did "coward" Pete somehow muzzle you in Hell?
quote:For what it's worth, when I click on that link, that post was made at 19:19 on 27 November.
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
I think Gee D is upset about some insinuation in this post here. Or should that be Uncle Pete's post at 8:19 on 27 November (to save Gee D the strain of clicking a link.)
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And it was his love of Tori Amos that ruined it for me.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:UM.
Originally posted by rolyn:
No one ever got a distant horny over a Hell Host then.
quote:Oh dear, Real Life™ got in the way of seeing this and Hell's probably not the right place for a reasoned discussion so I shall shall suggest that a left wing revolutionary overthrowing a right wing thug propped up by A Good Christian Nation™ generates less concern for me than a Pinochet regime at which the Reagans of this world can blow kisses leaving it to murder with impugnity (is that how it's spelt, my wiggly red lines aren't working) knowing that it had God On Its Side™ and God alone knows what the beaver wearing Drumpff will wink at and this sentence which parentheically references my avatar is worthy of St Paul and has enough ™-symbols for a life time
Originally posted by RuthW:
Honestly, to me it doesn't even make that much sense. Zappa said Castro was one of his "heroes of justice" -- which makes my brain leak a little bit of goo every time I try to understand it. How on earth a Christian -- a priest! -- can think someone who executed thousands of political opponents was in any way an exemplar of justice ... no. I can't wrap my mind around it.
quote:Hell, no. They'd be erudite. I'd just sure as hell have a Castro (either) before Evil dressed up as benevolence.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Damn, Zappa. Did Uncle Pete and Martin60 collaborate and write that post for you?
quote:*Lou Reed. "Sick of You". © 1989.
Oliver North married William Secord
And gave birth to a little Tehran
quote:Incidentally it was Reed who got his Secords mixed up, not me.
Originally posted by Me:
quote:Hell, no. They'd be erudite. I'd just sure as hell have a Castro (either) before Evil dressed up as benevolence.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Damn, Zappa. Did Uncle Pete and Martin60 collaborate and write that post for you?
A Poet Laureate of Blessed Memory* alluded to it this way:
quote:*Lou Reed. "Sick of You". © 1989.
Oliver North married William Secord
And gave birth to a little Tehran
quote:"This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it."
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd just sure as hell have a Castro (either) before Evil dressed up as benevolence.
quote:Is a stupid statement, Sorry Zappa, but that is the kindest way I can put it. You meerely repeat, but do not address this:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd just sure as hell have a Castro
quote:Your boy Jesus might forgive Castro, but he sure would not support him.
What you purport to believe is both a logical fallacy and an ethical one.
quote:sounds painful
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd just sure as hell have a Castro ...
quote:Or to put it another way, "America is bad".
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The USA's foreign policy (and the UK's for that matter) is frankly shocking. There's very little that either of them wouldn't support, prop-up, actively encourage, whatever, if it means more dollar/pounds in the bank. Other than that metric, they don't give a shit.
quote:That doesn't mean any change would be better.
And I'm left wondering if that shouldn't change.
quote:That's perfectly consistent with your first paragraph. And I can certainly envisage an alternative history where Castro was an ally of the US. But that wouldn't change anything about whether he was worthy of the accolades and adulation some here want to give him.
And note, that the US initially held out the hand of friendship to the Castro regime, even while it was imprisoning and executing Batista cronies. It was only when Castro had the temerity to nationalise US-owned assets did the drawbridge go up.
quote:Are you admitting that he was a monster? I count that as progress
So you can fuck right off back to binary world. Castro wasn't your monster.
quote:Actually it sounds pretty good.
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:sounds painful
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd just sure as hell have a Castro ...
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
quote:None of them are my monster, thank you very much. I'm no more a fan of the Sauds than I am of the Castros. The chief difference is that there's nobody on these boards posting gushing praise of the Sauds for me to disagree with.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The suggestion that he wasn't your monster is simply that if he had been your monster, you wouldn't have given two shits about what he did.
quote:Does that mean there's nothing cooler than mousethief?
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I typed in 'mousethief cooler'.
No hits for that.
quote:Humanity has so far managed to avoid putting people you share political views with into positions of power?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of them are my monster, thank you very much.
quote:None of this is about which political theory you favour. It's about you supporting a specific oppressive dictator.
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
So sorry to disappoint you, Marvellous Marvie. There is nothing you can say or do that would make me the supporter of the cold, corparatist capitalism you espouse, RuthW notwithstanding.
quote:Given that my political views center around the right of people to decide things for themselves, it's difficult to see which oppressive dictator could be said to agree with them. There are a few people with whom I share political opinions who have been put into positions of power as a result of free and fair elections, but I doubt either of us would say they were "monsters" in this context.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:Humanity has so far managed to avoid putting people you share political views with into positions of power?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of them are my monster, thank you very much.
Well. Normally I'm a pessimist but this actually gives me hope.
quote:Both right and left are guilty of that particular sin. But I was talking about how you and Pete are approaching the issue, not the political theories themselves.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
A game? Clearly you haven't bothered your arse paying attention, since it's the Right (certainly in this country, and many other places) that play about with people's lives as if they're of no consequence.
quote:Never read a word of hers in my life, but from the few reviews I've seen I doubt that would be true.
because you're a disciple of Rand
quote:False equivalence. It's mainly the Right, of any flavour. One of the hallmarks of social democracy and socialism is that people actually matter.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Both right and left are guilty of that particular sin.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
A game? Clearly you haven't bothered your arse paying attention, since it's the Right (certainly in this country, and many other places) that play about with people's lives as if they're of no consequence.
quote:I don't doubt it. You're right up her street.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Never read a word of hers in my life, but from the few reviews I've seen I doubt that would be true.
because you're a disciple of Rand
quote:You mean this bit that you conveniently didn't comment on and deleted from your reply?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.
quote:
Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.
quote:Read for comprehension. Or don't. It's a free country.
The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.
quote:Which of those headings do you consider Castro to fall under?
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
One of the hallmarks of social democracy and socialism is that people actually matter.
quote:It's the ability to reverse any decision that the people no longer support that's important. Not just the ones you think are terrible.
quote:You mean this bit that you conveniently didn't comment on and deleted from your reply?
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.quote:
Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.
quote:I've specifically asked you three times (albeit in only two different posts) if you would say the same. Your responses have been to bluster about how bad the right is rather than to confirm that you would, in fact, prefer a democratically elected capitalist government to a socialist dictatorship.
quote:Read for comprehension. Or don't. It's a free country.
The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.
quote:Oh, for the love of your God! I admire Castro only in the respect that he was the right leader for Cuba and held strong against all attempts by your government to kill and/or overthrow him. I never said he was not a dictator who killed both bad and good people. I admire Cubans who stood for humanitarian aid (yes he did, but I doubt that was reported widely in your press.) Nor do I doubt that,t given the chance, your government would have treated Cuba as a friend until it was no longer useful to them and then left it to fester as Haiti has been left to fester. PS- Social democracy doesn't work. It ends up doing its best to capture the centre point between left and right, and thus becomes indistinguishable from any other political movement.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Two nits to pic Doc. One is that, in practice, Socialism doesn't have a fantastic human rights track record. Which is why I prefer democratic socialism. Two, whilst I believe you are not a fan of dictators, I don't think the same can be said of Uncle Pete. Anyone who calls Castro great or a hero is willing to support a dictator if they have share political views.
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Oh, for the love of your God! I admire Castro only in the respect that he was the right leader for Cuba and held strong against all attempts by your government to kill and/or overthrow him. I never said he was not a dictator who killed both bad and good people.
quote:Yeah, not buying it.
Farewell to a great, great man
quote:All governments do this, even your beloved Castro.
I admire Cubans who stood for humanitarian aid (yes he did, but I doubt that was reported widely in your press.) Nor do I doubt that,t given the chance, your government would have treated Cuba as a friend until it was no longer useful to them and then left it to fester as Haiti has been left to fester.
quote:It is distinguishable from far left and far right, it is distinguishable from countries that need to lock their citizens in (coughCUBAcough).
PS- Social democracy doesn't work. It ends up doing its best to capture the centre point between left and right, and thus becomes indistinguishable from any other political movement.
quote:If you can get your rigidly binary mind around the concept, neither.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:Which of those headings do you consider Castro to fall under?
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
One of the hallmarks of social democracy and socialism is that people actually matter.
quote:Because of course I'm going to want to reverse decisions I agree with. But to avoid your semantic word-play, yes, that's kind of what democracy is about.
quote:It's the ability to reverse any decision that the people no longer support that's important. Not just the ones you think are terrible.
quote:You mean this bit that you conveniently didn't comment on and deleted from your reply?
As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.quote:
Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.
quote:And this is the first time you've actually expressed it this way. There's been zero bluster. I'm far more committed to the democratic process than you'll ever be - you're simply wearing it as a cloak and you'll shed it just as soon as you get a sniff of what you really want, which is hyper-capitalist libertarianism.
quote:I've specifically asked you three times (albeit in only two different posts) if you would say the same. Your responses have been to bluster about how bad the right is rather than to confirm that you would, in fact, prefer a democratically elected capitalist government to a socialist dictatorship.
quote:Read for comprehension. Or don't. It's a free country.
The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.
quote:No, you're not saying that at all. Or rather, that's not all you're saying. What you're saying is that you don't like people being in a position to tell you what to do. And for you, that goes for democracies as well as dictatorships.
I mean, this is a thread about a left-wing dictator on which I am saying his dictatorship was bad, and you're arguing against me. What am I supposed to think?
quote:Perhaps, but I feel like the killing of law abiding human rights activists is currently not a particularly common practice in either the U.S. or U.K. I'm sure there's always something one could say "what about...." I don't view our leaders as saintly or even particularly virtuous, and they probably have to be fairly vicious pragmatists when they need to be. Until they can muffle dissent or lock up their opposition willy nilly, I would say we're on a slightly better footing relative to a one party authoritarian state keeping everyone equally impoverished.
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Extrajudicial killings happen in every jurisdiction, including the US and UK. Each should be investigated and those responsible prosecuted, but single cases aren't necessarily indicative of anything broader.
quote:I'd say the next 4 years should prove an interesting test to this idea.
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I feel like the killing of law abiding human rights activists is currently not a particularly common practice in either the U.S. or U.K. I'm sure there's always something one could say "what about...." I don't view our leaders as saintly or even particularly virtuous, and they probably have to be fairly vicious pragmatists when they need to be. Until they can muffle dissent or lock up their opposition willy nilly, I would say we're on a slightly better footing relative to a one party authoritarian state keeping everyone equally impoverished.
quote:That's a ridiculous assertion, especially from someone who is defending Fidel Fucking Castro.
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm far more committed to the democratic process than you'll ever be - you're simply wearing it as a cloak and you'll shed it just as soon as you get a sniff of what you really want, which is hyper-capitalist libertarianism.
quote:What the hell are you talking about? You're heading into the realm of delusion if you think anything I've said on this thread is even remotely similar to that rubbish.
quote:No, you're not saying that at all. Or rather, that's not all you're saying. What you're saying is that you don't like people being in a position to tell you what to do. And for you, that goes for democracies as well as dictatorships.
I mean, this is a thread about a left-wing dictator on which I am saying his dictatorship was bad, and you're arguing against me. What am I supposed to think?
quote:I'm arguing in favour of democracy and freedom. It's a theme that runs through every post I've made on this thread. How you get from there to the idea that I don't give a shit about it and would happily ditch it is beyond me.
You're simply using this issue as a cover for some socialist bashing - in reality, you don't give a shit about it. Whereas democratic socialists would die at barricades defending what you'd so quickly ditch.
quote:Every form of government limits freedom to some degree. The government you seem to favour limits the have nots in favour of the haves. This is a consistent theme of yours on SOF
I'm arguing in favour of democracy and freedom. It's a theme that runs through every post I've made on this thread. How you get from there to the idea that I don't give a shit about it and would happily ditch it is beyond me
quote:That's why it's so important that the people get to decide which form of government they will have, and thus which freedoms will be limited.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree.
quote:That's why it's so important that the people get to decide which form of government they will have, and thus which freedoms will be limited.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree.
quote:That's why it's so important that the people get to decide which form of government they will have, and thus which freedoms will be limited.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree.
