|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The Coward Uncle Pete
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Thanks for that analysis Dave.
Just remember, we are all someone's reason to masturbate.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
No one ever got a distant horny over a Hell Host then.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
I admit I had a bit of a man-crush on orfeo, but that's as far as it went. And it was his love of Tori Amos that ruined it for me.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
And it was his love of Tori Amos that ruined it for me.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
The knuckle- dragging barbarians you have with you, I guess.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
No one ever got a distant horny over a Hell Host then.
UM.
UM.
I just..no. Just No.
Can't even.
--------------------
“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Honestly, to me it doesn't even make that much sense. Zappa said Castro was one of his "heroes of justice" -- which makes my brain leak a little bit of goo every time I try to understand it. How on earth a Christian -- a priest! -- can think someone who executed thousands of political opponents was in any way an exemplar of justice ... no. I can't wrap my mind around it.
Oh dear, Real Life™ got in the way of seeing this and Hell's probably not the right place for a reasoned discussion so I shall shall suggest that a left wing revolutionary overthrowing a right wing thug propped up by A Good Christian Nation™ generates less concern for me than a Pinochet regime at which the Reagans of this world can blow kisses leaving it to murder with impugnity (is that how it's spelt, my wiggly red lines aren't working) knowing that it had God On Its Side™ and God alone knows what the beaver wearing Drumpff will wink at and this sentence which parentheically references my avatar is worthy of St Paul and has enough ™-symbols for a life time
--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
Yeah, who knew that all you have to do to be a "hero of justice" is murder a slightly smaller bunch of people than at least one fascist dictator.
By that criterion, I must be the fucking Pope. If not the Messiah Himself.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Damn, Zappa. Did Uncle Pete and Martin60 collaborate and write that post for you?
I like you and generally respect what you post, but that is asinine and ridiculous.
It doesn't matter the ideology behind it, oppression is wrong. Murdering your oponents is wrong. Locking your citizens inside your borders is wrong.
What you purport to believe is both a logical fallacy and an ethical one.
ETA:There is a (relatively) reasoned discussion going on in Purg.
[ 04. December 2016, 23:08: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Me:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Damn, Zappa. Did Uncle Pete and Martin60 collaborate and write that post for you?
Hell, no. They'd be erudite. I'd just sure as hell have a Castro (either) before Evil dressed up as benevolence.
A Poet Laureate of Blessed Memory* alluded to it this way:
quote:
Oliver North married William Secord
And gave birth to a little Tehran
*Lou Reed. "Sick of You". © 1989.
Incidentally it was Reed who got his Secords mixed up, not me.
--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd just sure as hell have a Castro
Is a stupid statement, Sorry Zappa, but that is the kindest way I can put it. You meerely repeat, but do not address this:
quote:
What you purport to believe is both a logical fallacy and an ethical one.
Your boy Jesus might forgive Castro, but he sure would not support him.
[ 05. December 2016, 00:33: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd just sure as hell have a Castro ...
sounds painful
Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
The horrors of American foreign policy make you see Castro as a hero of justice? All righty then!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
It's as if they think America is bad, therefore anyone who opposes America must perforce be good.
So yeah, massive logical fallacy.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
Actually, and unsurprisingly, there is more, oh I don't know, more nuance in it than that.
The USA's foreign policy (and the UK's for that matter) is frankly shocking. There's very little that either of them wouldn't support, prop-up, actively encourage, whatever, if it means more dollar/pounds in the bank. Other than that metric, they don't give a shit. And I'm left wondering if that shouldn't change.
And note, that the US initially held out the hand of friendship to the Castro regime, even while it was imprisoning and executing Batista cronies. It was only when Castro had the temerity to nationalise US-owned assets did the drawbridge go up.
So you can fuck right off back to binary world. Castro wasn't your monster.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The USA's foreign policy (and the UK's for that matter) is frankly shocking. There's very little that either of them wouldn't support, prop-up, actively encourage, whatever, if it means more dollar/pounds in the bank. Other than that metric, they don't give a shit.
Or to put it another way, "America is bad".
quote:
And I'm left wondering if that shouldn't change.
That doesn't mean any change would be better.
quote:
And note, that the US initially held out the hand of friendship to the Castro regime, even while it was imprisoning and executing Batista cronies. It was only when Castro had the temerity to nationalise US-owned assets did the drawbridge go up.
That's perfectly consistent with your first paragraph. And I can certainly envisage an alternative history where Castro was an ally of the US. But that wouldn't change anything about whether he was worthy of the accolades and adulation some here want to give him.
quote:
So you can fuck right off back to binary world. Castro wasn't your monster.
Are you admitting that he was a monster? I count that as progress ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
The suggestion that he wasn't your monster is simply that if he had been your monster, you wouldn't have given two shits about what he did.
If someone is fighting against, rather than for, American foreign policy, then they have the fight of their lives on their hands. It doesn't actually matter whether they're trying to usher in an age of peace and prosperity for their people, free of banksters and rentiers, or whether they're going for a full-blown Communist dictatorship complete with gulags and secret police on every corner.
The only thing that seems to matter is if they impede the US's ability to own their stuff and sell them crap. That makes monsters. Castro was weak. He fell. He became an autocrat and a dictator and frankly unhinged.
But there is a context. A very broad context. If Castro had been the West's monster, Prince Charles would have been at the funeral in the same way he was at the Saudi king's funeral. And, mostly, no shits would be given.
Edit:
And adding that I've been very happy over the last few decades that the UK has mainly not been in a position to really prop up murderous dictatorships, something that membership of the EU has, I think, had a hand in. That we sell arms to some very questionable regimes is a source of shame. That we offer banking facilities to them and their stolen billions, rather than sequestering them for the time when we can hand them back to the people they were looted from, likewise. 'Ethical foreign policy' my arse. And I can only see it getting worse now the UK intends to leave the EU.
[ 05. December 2016, 11:52: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Wasting your time Doc. Marvin cannot see but two tones.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'd just sure as hell have a Castro ...
sounds painful
Actually it sounds pretty good.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
Using DuckDuckGo I get the thread from July where you posted the recipe.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The suggestion that he wasn't your monster is simply that if he had been your monster, you wouldn't have given two shits about what he did.
None of them are my monster, thank you very much. I'm no more a fan of the Sauds than I am of the Castros. The chief difference is that there's nobody on these boards posting gushing praise of the Sauds for me to disagree with.
But rest assured that if anyone posts a thread calling Salman bin Abdulaziz (or any of his predecessors) a great, great man whom Saudi Arabia are fortunate to have then I'll be right there to show them the error of their ways.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I typed in 'mousethief cooler'.
No hits for that. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Does that mean there's nothing cooler than mousethief?
--------------------
.
Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
So sorry to disappoint you, Marvellous Marvie. There is nothing you can say or do that would make me the supporter of the cold, corparatist capitalism you espouse, RuthW notwithstanding.
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of them are my monster, thank you very much.
Humanity has so far managed to avoid putting people you share political views with into positions of power?
Well. Normally I'm a pessimist but this actually gives me hope.
[ 05. December 2016, 18:45: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
So sorry to disappoint you, Marvellous Marvie. There is nothing you can say or do that would make me the supporter of the cold, corparatist capitalism you espouse, RuthW notwithstanding.
None of this is about which political theory you favour. It's about you supporting a specific oppressive dictator.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
None of them are my monster, thank you very much.
Humanity has so far managed to avoid putting people you share political views with into positions of power?
Well. Normally I'm a pessimist but this actually gives me hope.
Given that my political views center around the right of people to decide things for themselves, it's difficult to see which oppressive dictator could be said to agree with them. There are a few people with whom I share political opinions who have been put into positions of power as a result of free and fair elections, but I doubt either of us would say they were "monsters" in this context.
You and Pete seem to be treating politics like it's a game - or better yet, a war - where your side winning is the only thing that matters, and the way you get there is unimportant. I don't subscribe to that view, and I don't think the ends justify the means.
I may be in favour of capitalism, but I'd rather live in a socialist country that is that way due to the will of the people as expressed through free and fair elections than a capitalist country that is that way because of dictatorial oppression. Can you say the same with the political opinions reversed?
Another way of putting it is I'd rather see people freely choose the "wrong" answer than see them forced to accept the "right" one. Again, can you say the same?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
A game? Clearly you haven't bothered your arse paying attention, since it's the Right (certainly in this country, and many other places) that play about with people's lives as if they're of no consequence.
And as we've previously discussed, the only freedom you want leads to the vast majority - of which you're not one, because you're a disciple of Rand and therefore utterly self-deluded about your place in the pecking order - having only the freedom to starve to death at the side of the road.
Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
A game? Clearly you haven't bothered your arse paying attention, since it's the Right (certainly in this country, and many other places) that play about with people's lives as if they're of no consequence.
Both right and left are guilty of that particular sin. But I was talking about how you and Pete are approaching the issue, not the political theories themselves.
quote:
because you're a disciple of Rand
Never read a word of hers in my life, but from the few reviews I've seen I doubt that would be true.
As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.
The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
A game? Clearly you haven't bothered your arse paying attention, since it's the Right (certainly in this country, and many other places) that play about with people's lives as if they're of no consequence.
Both right and left are guilty of that particular sin.
False equivalence. It's mainly the Right, of any flavour. One of the hallmarks of social democracy and socialism is that people actually matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
because you're a disciple of Rand
Never read a word of hers in my life, but from the few reviews I've seen I doubt that would be true.
I don't doubt it. You're right up her street.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.
You mean this bit that you conveniently didn't comment on and deleted from your reply? quote:
Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.
quote:
The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.
Read for comprehension. Or don't. It's a free country.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Two nits to pic Doc. One is that, in practice, Socialism doesn't have a fantastic human rights track record. Which is why I prefer democratic socialism. Two, whilst I believe you are not a fan of dictators, I don't think the same can be said of Uncle Pete. Anyone who calls Castro great or a hero is willing to support a dictator if they have share political views.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
One of the hallmarks of social democracy and socialism is that people actually matter.
Which of those headings do you consider Castro to fall under?
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.
You mean this bit that you conveniently didn't comment on and deleted from your reply? quote:
Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.
It's the ability to reverse any decision that the people no longer support that's important. Not just the ones you think are terrible.
quote:
quote:
The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.
Read for comprehension. Or don't. It's a free country.
I've specifically asked you three times (albeit in only two different posts) if you would say the same. Your responses have been to bluster about how bad the right is rather than to confirm that you would, in fact, prefer a democratically elected capitalist government to a socialist dictatorship.
I mean, this is a thread about a left-wing dictator on which I am saying his dictatorship was bad, and you're arguing against me. What am I supposed to think?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Two nits to pic Doc. One is that, in practice, Socialism doesn't have a fantastic human rights track record. Which is why I prefer democratic socialism. Two, whilst I believe you are not a fan of dictators, I don't think the same can be said of Uncle Pete. Anyone who calls Castro great or a hero is willing to support a dictator if they have share political views.
Oh, for the love of your God! I admire Castro only in the respect that he was the right leader for Cuba and held strong against all attempts by your government to kill and/or overthrow him. I never said he was not a dictator who killed both bad and good people. I admire Cubans who stood for humanitarian aid (yes he did, but I doubt that was reported widely in your press.) Nor do I doubt that,t given the chance, your government would have treated Cuba as a friend until it was no longer useful to them and then left it to fester as Haiti has been left to fester. PS- Social democracy doesn't work. It ends up doing its best to capture the centre point between left and right, and thus becomes indistinguishable from any other political movement.
--------------------
Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Oh, for the love of your God! I admire Castro only in the respect that he was the right leader for Cuba and held strong against all attempts by your government to kill and/or overthrow him. I never said he was not a dictator who killed both bad and good people.
quote:
Farewell to a great, great man
Yeah, not buying it.
quote:
I admire Cubans who stood for humanitarian aid (yes he did, but I doubt that was reported widely in your press.) Nor do I doubt that,t given the chance, your government would have treated Cuba as a friend until it was no longer useful to them and then left it to fester as Haiti has been left to fester.
All governments do this, even your beloved Castro.
BTW, I've not decried Castro as Evil, with no merits. I'm looking for a more balanced view. Which, despite a few throw away comments, you do not seem to have.
quote:
PS- Social democracy doesn't work. It ends up doing its best to capture the centre point between left and right, and thus becomes indistinguishable from any other political movement.
It is distinguishable from far left and far right, it is distinguishable from countries that need to lock their citizens in (coughCUBAcough).
There is no perfect system of government. There is, and never will be, any utopian government. Government will always be a compromise. You choose what things you will compromise for what things are most necessary. There is a discussion in what ideals can be most closely achieved, but short of a radical change in human nature, no system will be perfect.
As far as Castro:
Any government that needs to repress its people to maintain itself has failed those people.
Castro could have done much better by his people. He chose not to do so.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
One of the hallmarks of social democracy and socialism is that people actually matter.
Which of those headings do you consider Castro to fall under?
If you can get your rigidly binary mind around the concept, neither.
quote:
quote:
quote:
As for "the freedoms I want", you might want to start with the one I've just been talking about. Namely the overarching freedom of a population to decide which form of government it shall have. I may favour a certain set of policies, but I would never support any leader or wannabe leader who would seek to impose those policies on an unwilling population by force.
You mean this bit that you conveniently didn't comment on and deleted from your reply? quote:
Yes, having the ability to reverse terrible decisions peacefully through the ballot box is an important right. One which we should all reflect on as we organise coups in democratic nations and flog arms to hideously repressive regimes across the globe.
It's the ability to reverse any decision that the people no longer support that's important. Not just the ones you think are terrible.
Because of course I'm going to want to reverse decisions I agree with. But to avoid your semantic word-play, yes, that's kind of what democracy is about.
quote:
quote:
quote:
The sad and worrying thing is, the longer this argument goes on the less sure I am that you would say the same.
Read for comprehension. Or don't. It's a free country.
I've specifically asked you three times (albeit in only two different posts) if you would say the same. Your responses have been to bluster about how bad the right is rather than to confirm that you would, in fact, prefer a democratically elected capitalist government to a socialist dictatorship.
And this is the first time you've actually expressed it this way. There's been zero bluster. I'm far more committed to the democratic process than you'll ever be - you're simply wearing it as a cloak and you'll shed it just as soon as you get a sniff of what you really want, which is hyper-capitalist libertarianism.
quote:
I mean, this is a thread about a left-wing dictator on which I am saying his dictatorship was bad, and you're arguing against me. What am I supposed to think?
No, you're not saying that at all. Or rather, that's not all you're saying. What you're saying is that you don't like people being in a position to tell you what to do. And for you, that goes for democracies as well as dictatorships.
You're simply using this issue as a cover for some socialist bashing - in reality, you don't give a shit about it. Whereas democratic socialists would die at barricades defending what you'd so quickly ditch.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Extrajudicial killings happen in every jurisdiction, including the US and UK. Each should be investigated and those responsible prosecuted, but single cases aren't necessarily indicative of anything broader.
Perhaps, but I feel like the killing of law abiding human rights activists is currently not a particularly common practice in either the U.S. or U.K. I'm sure there's always something one could say "what about...." I don't view our leaders as saintly or even particularly virtuous, and they probably have to be fairly vicious pragmatists when they need to be. Until they can muffle dissent or lock up their opposition willy nilly, I would say we're on a slightly better footing relative to a one party authoritarian state keeping everyone equally impoverished.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I feel like the killing of law abiding human rights activists is currently not a particularly common practice in either the U.S. or U.K. I'm sure there's always something one could say "what about...." I don't view our leaders as saintly or even particularly virtuous, and they probably have to be fairly vicious pragmatists when they need to be. Until they can muffle dissent or lock up their opposition willy nilly, I would say we're on a slightly better footing relative to a one party authoritarian state keeping everyone equally impoverished.
I'd say the next 4 years should prove an interesting test to this idea.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm far more committed to the democratic process than you'll ever be - you're simply wearing it as a cloak and you'll shed it just as soon as you get a sniff of what you really want, which is hyper-capitalist libertarianism.
That's a ridiculous assertion, especially from someone who is defending Fidel Fucking Castro.
quote:
quote:
I mean, this is a thread about a left-wing dictator on which I am saying his dictatorship was bad, and you're arguing against me. What am I supposed to think?
No, you're not saying that at all. Or rather, that's not all you're saying. What you're saying is that you don't like people being in a position to tell you what to do. And for you, that goes for democracies as well as dictatorships.
What the hell are you talking about? You're heading into the realm of delusion if you think anything I've said on this thread is even remotely similar to that rubbish.
quote:
You're simply using this issue as a cover for some socialist bashing - in reality, you don't give a shit about it. Whereas democratic socialists would die at barricades defending what you'd so quickly ditch.
I'm arguing in favour of democracy and freedom. It's a theme that runs through every post I've made on this thread. How you get from there to the idea that I don't give a shit about it and would happily ditch it is beyond me.
And again, you are the one defending an oppressive dictator on this thread. Not me. And there seem to be no lengths to which you won't go while mounting that defence. You even started defending Hitler when I brought him up to illustrate a point back on page 2.
Throughout my entire time on these boards I cannot recall once arguing against anyone who said that Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, Batista, Franco et al were oppressive dictators, because they were. The fact that I happen to be on the same side of politics as them doesn't enter into it. But for some reason, when the oppressive dictator in question is from the left side of politics those who are also on that side can't seem to stop making excuses for him, minimising the evils of his reign, or filling the thread with tangents so that the criticism gets drowned out. Isn't that interesting?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
Feel free to point out anywhere I've defended Castro. Your argument is invalid.
And actually, I've run out of fucks to give here. A stone can't be pierced by an arrow, and I've no further wish to try.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Originally posted by MtM:
quote:
I'm arguing in favour of democracy and freedom. It's a theme that runs through every post I've made on this thread. How you get from there to the idea that I don't give a shit about it and would happily ditch it is beyond me
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree. The government you seem to favour limits the have nots in favour of the haves. This is a consistent theme of yours on SOF
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree.
That's why it's so important that the people get to decide which form of government they will have, and thus which freedoms will be limited.
My answer to those questions is different to yours, yes. But that doesn't matter - we should both get an equal right to have our say about how we will be governed.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree.
That's why it's so important that the people get to decide which form of government they will have, and thus which freedoms will be limited.
My answer to those questions is different to yours, yes. But that doesn't matter - we should both get an equal right to have our say about how we will be governed.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Every form of government limits freedom to some degree.
That's why it's so important that the people get to decide which form of government they will have, and thus which freedoms will be limited.
My answer to those questions is different to yours, yes. But that doesn't matter - we should both get an equal right to have our say about how we will be governed.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
Sorry, iPhone cock up.
I thought you weren't coming back?
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
Yeah, I realised that about five minutes after I posted.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
