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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Coward Uncle Pete
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Religion has no place in politics, Trump and Modi, notwithstanding. And don't include me as a Christian.
I think morals and ethics do have a place in politics. If you don't, then that explains your devotion to Castro.
If Castro's Cuba is such a wonderful place, again, why all the people fleeing? A million escapees can't be wrong.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
BTW, bringing religion into this debate is appropriate since this is a Christian board with avowed Christians posting in the AS thread.
Apologies for insinuating that you are a Christian.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
it's not correct to characterise this as killing political opponents, as if they were peaceful human rights activists. These were the brutal enforcers of the fallen dictator.
I think it's a virtual certainty that among the hundreds to thousands executed by the Revolutionary government there were a number of people who were not guilty of anything; or at least not guilty of anything beyond owning property or being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
More recently, there is strong suspicion that an actual human rights activist was indeed the victim of an extrajudicial killing by the Cuban government. HRF.
Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If Castro's Cuba is such a wonderful place, again, why all the people fleeing? A million escapees can't be wrong.
This doesn't follow. They could be escaping because they were comparatively rich and were being made to accept a less flashy lifestyle so other people in the country could share the wealth also. That's just one reason; others doubtless exist.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
On the basis that US Guantanamo still exists, I don't think anybody from the US has any right to criticise Castro for his civil rights record. So sue me.
On the basis that the UK crapped all over the world for centuries, gave birth to the US through shitty administration of its colonies, and has a tendency to support lots of American foreign policy (which would be amusing if that policy weren't so horrific), I don't think anyone from the UK has the right to criticize the US. So shut up, lapdog. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 24451 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
I think it's a virtual certainty that among the hundreds to thousands executed by the Revolutionary government there were a number of people who were not guilty of anything; or at least not guilty of anything beyond owning property or being at the wrong place at the wrong time.
More recently, there is strong suspicion that an actual human rights activist was indeed the victim of an extrajudicial killing by the Cuban government. HRF.
Extrajudicial killings happen in every jurisdiction, including the US and UK. Each should be investigated and those responsible prosecuted, but single cases aren't necessarily indicative of anything broader.
Likewise I have no doubt that there have been miscarraiges of justice in Cuba just as there have been in other countries, which is one of many reasons I'm glsd that most countries have severely restricted or abolished capital punishment.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If Castro's Cuba is such a wonderful place, again, why all the people fleeing? A million escapees can't be wrong.
This doesn't follow. They could be escaping because they were comparatively rich and were being made to accept a less flashy lifestyle so other people in the country could share the wealth also. That's just one reason; others doubtless exist.
In a slightly earlier post I did mention this. The first wave of emigrants did indeed contain the rich and middle class. Each subsequent wave was poorer than the last.
Locks on the outside of a door are only required in a prison.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If Castro's Cuba is such a wonderful place, again, why all the people fleeing? A million escapees can't be wrong.
This doesn't follow. They could be escaping because they were comparatively rich and were being made to accept a less flashy lifestyle so other people in the country could share the wealth also. That's just one reason; others doubtless exist.
No-one, who wasn't a fully paid up Tankie, ever came up with these excuses when people were shot trying to cross the Berlin Wall. Why is it that Castro gets a free pass, whilst the likes of Honecker and Jaruzelski don't?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
I'm definitely not a fan of the sort of society such thinking would create, but with posts such as the one you mention it's hard to deny that a number of left-wingers seem to like it. Which presumably means that they'd want to see the likes of you and I locked up or executed were they ever to gain the power to do so.
Oh come on, even you can see that is bullshit.
Generally, when people declare someone a paragon of justice it means they would like to see that person's approach to justice replicated across the world. Castro is being declared a paragon of justice by some, and his approach to justice included the incarceration or execution of those who opposed his policies.
Which part of that is bullshit?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
And what SPK said. If after 57 years, you still need to lock your citizens in, you have not liberated anyone.
The boxing in is 50% America`s doing.
That's demonstrably false. The US has a policy of granting an automatic right of abode for any Cuban who manages to reach it, which is the exact opposite of them being culpable for the fact that the vast majority of Cubans are not permitted to leave their country.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Well, here is the response you have certainly been waiting with bated breath.
Yay.
quote:
And yes, I am aware that he had faults. He was fallible, but he was for Cuba. Unlike Americans , he set up a health care system. I give him points for that, because I am also the beneficiary of a health care system in Canada (not perfect, but which one is? The education system works pretty well too.
Are healthcare and education more important than human rights and democracy? I think not.
A brutal dictatorship that provides good, free healthcare and education (to those who don't oppose it) is worse than a free democracy where good healthcare and education have to be bought. If that were not so then Americans would be the ones trying to get into Cuba, rather than it being the other way around.
quote:
The main thing I like about Castro is that he kept Cuba from becoming a source of cheap labour for American capitalism, kept them from cheap but excellent cigars, and, most of all, kept his country from being a cheap foodbasket for the American corporate maw.
Or to put it another way, anyone who opposes capitalism or big business is your hero regardless of anything else they may do.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
It strikes me that the language of "he had faults" is appropriate for he left the loo seat up, or he had a bad temper, or he liked a drink a bit too much.
Not: he ran a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship for fifty years and murdered and imprisoned his political opponents.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Castro is being declared a paragon of justice by some, and his approach to justice included the incarceration or execution of those who opposed his policies.
Completely agree. I feel the same when people profess support for Trump. They either think xenophobia, populism and misogyny are good things, OK things, or bad things but outweighed by lower taxes. All of these are profound misjudgements which I react to. If they describe Trump as an unqualified good option then we are closer to the first two options and I feel those unqualified statements are quite close to a personal attack on groups of people.
Likewise if I'm in one of the groups of people that Castro would lock up or execute and someone talks about how great he is I'm going to struggle with that on a personal level.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
It strikes me that the language of "he had faults" is appropriate for he left the loo seat up, or he had a bad temper, or he liked a drink a bit too much.
Not: he ran a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship for fifty years and murdered and imprisoned his political opponents.
But, even that last statement needs to be split into (at least) two.
"he ran a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship for fifty years". Not necessarily a bad thing (nor necessarily a good thing). That's going to depend upon your views of Marxist-Leninism as a political theory, and how well you think he actually implemented the theory. And, it's going to depend on how you view dictatorship as a form of government - is a democracy that produces President Trump any better than a benign dictatorship? Dictatorship of some form (eg: a monarchy) has been the most common form of government in history, and it hasn't all been bad.
"murdered and imprisoned his political opponents". Can't really be called a good thing IMO. However, if his political opponents were actually trying to kill him, commit acts of violence against his government, or some other actions that most of us would consider unacceptable then is imprisonment of those people (after a fair trial) actually wrong, even in some cases execution (though personally I would consider execution wrong in all cases, some "civilised democracies" do still execute some criminals). In the case of Castro, the number of people imprisoned and executed certainly seems disproportionate - strongly suggesting that that included some innocent people, and a lot of people given sentences well in excess of the severity of their actions.
Of course, when someone can suggest someone else be imprisoned over their choice of email server, we know that other governments aren't paragons of virtue on that front either.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
"he ran a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship for fifty years". Not necessarily a bad thing (nor necessarily a good thing). That's going to depend upon your views of Marxist-Leninism as a political theory, and how well you think he actually implemented the theory.
If anybody round here said the same thing about fascist dictatorships you'd excoriate them.
quote:
And, it's going to depend on how you view dictatorship as a form of government - is a democracy that produces President Trump any better than a benign dictatorship? Dictatorship of some form (eg: a monarchy) has been the most common form of government in history, and it hasn't all been bad.
Are you seriously defending dictatorship as a valid form of government, so long as it gives you the results you want? What would you think of anyone from different political persuasions advancing such an argument?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
"he ran a Marxist-Leninist dictatorship for fifty years". Not necessarily a bad thing (nor necessarily a good thing).
The whole Marxist-Leninist dictatorship thing has been pretty much tested to destruction. The outcomes were, a massive body count, the routine violation of human rights, economic stagnation and, in the early period of such regimes, some reasonably good gains in terms of economic modernisation, health care and literacy somewhat undermined, in the most egregious cases, of mass starvation caused by the collectivisation of agriculture. Oh, and a side order of imperialism and militarism to boot. There's no point coming over all J.C. Flannel about this. Castro's regime was one of the better variants, as Marxist-Leninist regimes go, but that's really akin to saying that General Franco was a better ruler than some of his ideological soulmates.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of course, when someone can suggest someone else be imprisoned over their choice of email server, we know that other governments aren't paragons of virtue on that front either.
But she has not been and likely will not be.
If America were communist she'd already be in prison.
Democratic forms of government can have abuses, but those can be fixed. Not so in Communism.
Perhaps soothes Uncle Pete and other wannabe communists to pretend that because they would prefer another form of government and/or do not like their current ones that they bear no responsibility in its abuses. This is wrong. If you do not actively work to change that which you think unjust, you are complicit.
This is true of all forms of government. The difference being in a repressive form such as Communism, the consequences are higher by default.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
And what SPK said. If after 57 years, you still need to lock your citizens in, you have not liberated anyone.
The boxing in is 50% America`s doing.
That's demonstrably false. The US has a policy of granting an automatic right of abode for any Cuban who manages to reach it, which is the exact opposite of them being culpable for the fact that the vast majority of Cubans are not permitted to leave their country.
The USA embargoed the country. Completely. If that ain't boxing in, what is? It spend some $ 1 billion trying to bring him down. Castro's legacy is mixed, however much you want to say it is all wrong and bad. Tens of thousands of doctors and teachers trained, lower infant mortality and illiteracy rates than other Latin American countries, agrarian reform and breakup of large landlord holdings. Along with imprisonment of opposition, human rights violations, mistakes in policies which lead to famine. Do we have the ability so soon to discuss him in balanced ways? Like many other leaders, he did good things and bad things.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The USA embargoed the country. Completely.
America certainly refused to do business of any kind with Cuba, but there are lots of other countries in the world that were perfectly free to trade with it as they wished. It's not like the US had a massive blockade around the whole country preventing anything from getting in or out.
And furthermore, the US trade embargo had nothing to do with the fact that Cubans are not allowed to leave the country, which you might recognise as the thing we were actually talking about.
quote:
Castro's legacy is mixed, however much you want to say it is all wrong and bad.
Go back and check my post on the Purg thread. I specifically mentioned the good things.
quote:
Tens of thousands of doctors and teachers trained, lower infant mortality and illiteracy rates than other Latin American countries, agrarian reform and breakup of large landlord holdings. Along with imprisonment of opposition, human rights violations, mistakes in policies which lead to famine. Do we have the ability so soon to discuss him in balanced ways? Like many other leaders, he did good things and bad things.
The problem is that you're making it sound like the good things balance out the bad things, as if a few more doctors and teachers are sufficient to outweigh oppression and human rights violations. I mean, even Hitler introduced massive infrastructure projects and virtually eliminated unemployment but you don't hear people saying he had a "mixed legacy" or "did good things and bad things". ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I mean, even Hitler introduced massive infrastructure projects and virtually eliminated unemployment but you don't hear people saying he had a "mixed legacy" or "did good things and bad things".
Though I think the example is a little too far, it is still a valid point.
Evil is not excused because some god was done as well.
Castor was not a good person, Cuba is not a worker's paradise.
Castro was not pure evil, Cuba is not the worst place to live.
In the end, Cuba is a prison, there is no justification for that.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Teekeey Misha
Shipmate
# 18604
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I am sorry, this is rubbish. Terrible things are still terrible whether or not there are worse offenders.
Which is precisely why I wrote: "I'm not going to sit here and type that Castro was a saint." I noted that I am not as quick to damn Castro for doing what others do; I did not suggest that what he did was not terrible or unworthy of censure.
quote:
But murdering captured opposition is hardly a thing a Christian should applaud anyway.
And where did I do so?
quote:
How is it that people fled such a glorious leader of a wonderous paradise?
Oh, and that would be the third thing I haven't said.
quote:
Oppression and suppression are wrong. Because Castro helped the poor makes him better than some, but it does not make him worthy of praise when weighed with that.
Which would be thing number four I haven't said. You're shouting and stamping your feet about things you are pretending I said. All we need to complete the scene is for you to stroppily dismiss something as "stupid" and the petulant tantrum is complete.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:This is a stupid statement.
And I call 'HOUSE' in this game of lilBiddha bingo.
quote:
I'm not proposing roasting marshmallows on his writhing body in Hell, but opening the Pearly Gates for him is wrong as well.
What an interesting* comment.
[*That's "interesting" in the sense of "Oh! That sounds remarkably like what I said, which some asshole on this thread dismissed as "rubbish" before haranguing me for saying a host of things I didn't say.]
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
Posts: 296 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2016
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
If Castro's Cuba is such a wonderful place, again, why all the people fleeing? A million escapees can't be wrong.
This doesn't follow. They could be escaping because they were comparatively rich and were being made to accept a less flashy lifestyle so other people in the country could share the wealth also. That's just one reason; others doubtless exist.
No-one, who wasn't a fully paid up Tankie, ever came up with these excuses when people were shot trying to cross the Berlin Wall. Why is it that Castro gets a free pass, whilst the likes of Honecker and Jaruzelski don't?
Who's giving him a free pass? No one on this thread. Non sequitur.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
And what SPK said. If after 57 years, you still need to lock your citizens in, you have not liberated anyone.
The boxing in is 50% America`s doing.
That's demonstrably false. The US has a policy of granting an automatic right of abode for any Cuban who manages to reach it, which is the exact opposite of them being culpable for the fact that the vast majority of Cubans are not permitted to leave their country.
{Not pushing any particular view of Fidel or Cuba, except to look at different facets.}
Actually, the US has had a complicated role in Cuba. If you take a look at Wikipedia's article on Batista (maybe starting at section 5), there's a lot about the involvement of the US gov't, US companies, and the American Mafia (even Lucky Luciano!) in/with Batista's regime. (And then there were all those times the US gov't and US companies (like United Fruit) messed around with other Latin American countries.)
Quotes from that same page:
-- quote:
On October 6, 1960 Senator John F. Kennedy, in the midst of his campaign for the U.S. Presidency, decried Batista's relationship with the U.S. government and criticized the Eisenhower administration for supporting him:
"Fulgencio Batista murdered 20,000 Cubans in seven years ... and he turned Democratic Cuba into a complete police state—destroying every individual liberty. Yet our aid to his regime, and the ineptness of our policies, enabled Batista to invoke the name of the United States in support of his reign of terror. Administration spokesmen publicly praised Batista—hailed him as a staunch ally and a good friend—at a time when Batista was murdering thousands, destroying the last vestiges of freedom, and stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the Cuban people, and we failed to press for free elections."[41]
-- quote:
"I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country's policies during the Batista regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins. In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear."
— U.S. President John F. Kennedy, to Jean Daniel, October 24, 1963
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18595 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No, I am sorry, this is rubbish. Terrible things are still terrible whether or not there are worse offenders.
Which is precisely why I wrote: "I'm not going to sit here and type that Castro was a saint." I noted that I am not as quick to damn Castro for doing what others do; I did not suggest that what he did was not terrible or unworthy of censure.
It was this bit I was calling rubbish.
quote:
(Largely, I guess, because I'm not convinced that the terrible offences he may have committed aren't committed by "democratic" nations all the time.)
Bad behaviour should be condemned no matter if other people do it as well.
As for the rest, it seems I assumed you were jumping in with Uncle Pete, my bad.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
I would agree. Uncle Pete seems to be of the opinion that the evil done was justified.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
And what SPK said. If after 57 years, you still need to lock your citizens in, you have not liberated anyone.
The boxing in is 50% America`s doing.
That's demonstrably false. The US has a policy of granting an automatic right of abode for any Cuban who manages to reach it, which is the exact opposite of them being culpable for the fact that the vast majority of Cubans are not permitted to leave their country.
{Not pushing any particular view of Fidel or Cuba, except to look at different facets.}
Actually, the US has had a complicated role in Cuba.
None of what follows that statement has anything at all to do with Cubans being prohibited from leaving the country.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
You do realise there is a really handy URL code that links directly to another post? Using that means others don't need to translate from whatever time zone you're in to identify when a post was written, and then to go and find it.
But, if you want to make people work hard to figure out what you're referring to then go ahead. I'll just ignore you, I've better things to do with life than spend time doing that.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I've better things to do with life than spend time doing that.
Do you also have better things to do than answering these points?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I've better things to do with life than spend time doing that.
Do you also have better things to do than answering these points?
Yes, I do. But, then I have better things to do than read a thread about what people think of a dead bloke I've not taken much notice of - except someone raised a stink in the Styx and I was wanting to keep on top of things.
But, here goes anyway.
1. Differences/similarities between fascism and Marxist-Leninism. OK, I admit it, I lean more towards Marxism than Fascism. Part of that is that I think that at it's core fascism really is only interested in dividing people into groups - "us" and "not us" - and only seeking the best for the "us" group. Whereas in principal (if not in practice) Marxism lumps everyone in as equal (though, some are more equal than others) and works for the best of the whole community. I prefer that.
Although, of course, I'm not actually at either end. I have more time for Marxists than Fascists.
2. On dictatorships. No system of government is perfect, and all have faults. Hitler was elected under a democratic system. Democracy can turn into government by the mob, and certainly can be very short sighted with politicians looking at the next election rather than the long term. Dictatorship has it's faults, certainly, but also some strengths - an ability to act against the mob, to take a long view of policies being among them.
Whether either "work" depends very much on what you think government should be doing. If you're looking for stability, long-term consistency in policy and the like then it may well be that a good dictatorship is better than a democracy. Obviously if you want the views of the people to guide government then a democracy is better. And, I think a bad democracy is probably better than a bad dictatorship.
And, government has other layers as well, various checks and balances. The courts often being one. Most democracies have multiple chambers appointed in different ways to provide checks and balances. Monarchies have some form of Parliament or advisory body (may, or may not, be elected). Feudal systems have subordinate lords who together can check the power of the monarch. Most dictatorships also have some form of balance as well, in the good ones these balances are sufficiently powerful and free to operate that they are effective.
So, basically, not a simple question. And, a serious discussion would be better outside of Hell.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Although, of course, I'm not actually at either end. I have more time for Marxists than Fascists.
That feels a little bit like Romanlion claiming he's not a supporter of Hillary or Trump on the US election thread. If you only ever attack side A but keep excusing or downplaying the excesses of side B then you're a de facto supporter of side B.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
I would agree. Uncle Pete seems to be of the opinion that the evil done was justified.
If you think that you really are a silly tosspot. Evil is never justified. But better to be a Marxist state than a failed client state of the USA
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Uncle Pete's post yesterday timed at 6.57 goes pretty close to that.
I would agree. Uncle Pete seems to be of the opinion that the evil done was justified.
If you think that you really are a silly tosspot. Evil is never justified. But better to be a Marxist state than a failed client state of the USA
Which Marxist state would that be? You do appear to acknowledge that there are client states of the USA that are not "failed".
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Okay, breath people.
Castro arrived at a time in an air of optimism about leaders/monarchs/dictators who may not be all bad. You had Gaddafi around the same time and it probably looked like the Islamic spring (or whatever it was supposed to be). They both had charismatic personalities and spoke to the common people of justice, truth, freedom and a shared future vision. Both men had a clear vision of what they wanted - or so it seemed. Both men initially achieved something of what they proposed, at least initially anyway. They stood up to imperial power, proposed a new form of governance and heightened a sense of nationalism to achieve their goals. I'm sure it's bears no similarity at all with UKIP, Le Pencil, Trump et al....no, no, surely no similarities there whatsoever. Anyway, that's probably another thread. The result was that they had quite enthusiastic followers; some might say brainwashed. The initial goals could be considered noble in some degree if you don't buy into the belief that they only ever wanted absolute power for their own purposes. The waters were quickly muddied by personal misadventure, bad decisions, the followers painting the hero as white as the driven snow and the detractors painting the demon as in league with the devil. Both presented a monolithic front unhelpful to all and most of all to the 'leader'. Time passed and with it came the personal gain of the person who holds to power because they don;t know what else to do when the utopian haven they hoped to create didn't blossom. Basically that's my reading of them both. Both could be heroic and also demonic. They were deeply complex characters at a very weird political time. Perhaps they stopped something worse in their place, standing there like a great plug in a dam, but can we ever really know? I doubt it. The emotions that they conjure in people are complex too, because they represent ideals and ideas that might have died with them (or perhaps died long before their physical death). To me, they are simply tragic figures. I can;t look at them without a tinge of sadness at what might have been and the sadness for what was. Both are a kind of Seigfried figure; driven by idealism, lost in warped morality, burnt on the pire of their own making.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Although, of course, I'm not actually at either end. I have more time for Marxists than Fascists.
That feels a little bit like Romanlion claiming he's not a supporter of Hillary or Trump on the US election thread. If you only ever attack side A but keep excusing or downplaying the excesses of side B then you're a de facto supporter of side B.
Eh? Run that by me again. I'm sure there must be sense in there somewhere.
I admit it, I spend more time attacking the ideas of fascists than marxists. Part of that is that I lean to the left. A bigger part is that (in the UK at least) fascism is the bigger threat to our values and liberties - the likes of Britain First, BNP, UKIP can organise groups of thugs to vandalise mosques and inspire individuals to murder MPs. Not to forget convince a large number of decent people to develop a groundless fear of immigrants, bringing their philosophy into the political mainstream with arbitrary immigration targets and Brexit. The SWP can barely get a dozen people together before they fall out over the precise shade of red for the flag.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The SWP can barely get a dozen people together before they fall out over the precise shade of red for the flag.
Deepest red, surely?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Evil is never justified.
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Farewell to a great, great man. Cuba was fortunate to have him over the last 55 years.
There are only two possibilities. Either you don't think Castro did anything evil, or you are lying when you say evil is never justified.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I admit it, I spend more time attacking the ideas of fascists than marxists.
You also spend more time making excuses for the evils of marxists than fascists (the latter amount of time being "none").
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Evil is never justified.
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Farewell to a great, great man. Cuba was fortunate to have him over the last 55 years.
There are only two possibilities. Either you don't think Castro did anything evil, or you are lying when you say evil is never justified.
Geez. Binary much? Is there anything in your world that can be and and not just either/or?
Clearly not. There's a whole spectrum of nuance that you ignore, either deliberately, or because you're pathologically incapable of embracing it. It makes interacting with you verging on the impossible.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Well said
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Evil is never justified.
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Farewell to a great, great man. Cuba was fortunate to have him over the last 55 years.
There are only two possibilities. Either you don't think Castro did anything evil, or you are lying when you say evil is never justified.
Geez. Binary much? Is there anything in your world that can be and and not just either/or?
Clearly not. There's a whole spectrum of nuance that you ignore, either deliberately, or because you're pathologically incapable of embracing it. It makes interacting with you verging on the impossible.
Well, there does seem to be a fairly wide distance between a "great, great man" and one who did great evil whatever good he also did.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Evil is never justified.
quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Pete:
Farewell to a great, great man. Cuba was fortunate to have him over the last 55 years.
There are only two possibilities. Either you don't think Castro did anything evil, or you are lying when you say evil is never justified.
Geez. Binary much? Is there anything in your world that can be and and not just either/or?
Clearly not. There's a whole spectrum of nuance that you ignore, either deliberately, or because you're pathologically incapable of embracing it. It makes interacting with you verging on the impossible.
Watch out, he'll understand that to mean that you want to gulag him.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Like pretty much every single president or monarch, Castro's legacy is mixed. But if I said that no ruler that hadn't been elected on a popular mandate - every king, queen, tyrant, dictator and autocrat was simply wrong and bad and that's all we need to remember about them, then discussion of any kind simply becomes impossible.
Castro saved Cuba from being America's whorehouse, from being a kleptocracy run for the benefit of the criminally rich. He ousted a grotesque dictator who, let's not forget, enjoyed the backing of the US government even after Batista cancelled the elections in which Castro was going to stand.
His unexpectedly enthusiastic cleansing (executions on a large scale) of former Batista loyalists raised a few eyebrows, but it was his nationalisation of US assets that brought down the decades-long US economic embargo and in order to keep his country afloat, he turned to Moscow for aid.
Up to this point, his record was broadly positive. If all we looked at was this, and his achievements in healthcare, literacy, and yes, assisting indigenous people under colonial rule to win independence, then it would be mostly praiseworthy.
However, increasingly repressive actions at home, and that whole thing with the missiles paints a completely different picture. If that was all we dwelt on, then we see him as a monster.
As with his many contemporary US counterparts: JFK, Reagan, Bush - you can consider them either saints or sinners. But not accurately. It's not one, or the other. It's more often than not both, and often at the same time.
Now, this is Hell. You don't have to be accurate, or even in the ball park of a fact-based opinion. But don't expect to be given quarter if you spout utter nonsense, be it from the left, the right, or some orthogonal direction to the main axis.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I expect mtm to push rhetoric over logic at least a bit and Uncle Pete is a lost cause but Doc that is stupid.
Cuba had problems but it was not "America's whorehouse".
I posted a link on the other thread from American Public Telly that gives a fairly balanced overview. I'll post it here later.
By your logic, Batista was not too bad because the economy was doing well under him.
quote:
Now, this is Hell. You don't have to be accurate, or even in the ball park
ironically appropriate to a section of your post. Though, despite this being hell, I'll admit not all of it was bollocks. Part was just naive. Castro was never going to be benevolent. He lied to his own from the very beginning. That he was better than any other communist dictator is a good thing, even if it is a very low bar.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I admit it, I spend more time attacking the ideas of fascists than marxists.
You also spend more time making excuses for the evils of marxists than fascists (the latter amount of time being "none").
Do you have any examples of my "making excuses for the evils of marxists"? But, if you want balance, just in case I ever have done so, the trains ran on time.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32411 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, increasingly repressive actions at home, and that whole thing with the missiles paints a completely different picture. If that was all we dwelt on, then we see him as a monster.
Of course there was the war and that nasty holocaust business, and if that was all we dwelt on then we'd see him as a monster. But Hitler did many good things for the people of Germany as well, and you can't just paint him as evil unless you want to be a nuance-ignoring binary thinker.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Do you have any examples of my "making excuses for the evils of marxists"?
quote:
Basically, from all the way over here and just some impressionistic anecdotes, Castro displayed enough good qualities for people to admire him and enough bad qualities for people to hate him. But, not enough good qualities to be a saint, and not enough bad to be the devil incarnate. Pretty much the same as most political leaders really.
That sure sounds like you were saying Castro was no worse than any other political leader.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, increasingly repressive actions at home, and that whole thing with the missiles paints a completely different picture. If that was all we dwelt on, then we see him as a monster.
Of course there was the war and that nasty holocaust business, and if that was all we dwelt on then we'd see him as a monster. But Hitler did many good things for the people of Germany as well, and you can't just paint him as evil unless you want to be a nuance-ignoring binary thinker.
And if you ignore the context of the Treaty of Versailles that we forced on Germany - which you probably do - and the subsequent hyperinflation of the Mark, and the US-originated late 20s depression - which you probably also ignore, or attribute to Gordon Brown - you'll have no idea why the Germans turned to Hitler in the first place.
So yes, you're talking shit yet again.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
However, increasingly repressive actions at home, and that whole thing with the missiles paints a completely different picture. If that was all we dwelt on, then we see him as a monster.
Of course there was the war and that nasty holocaust business, and if that was all we dwelt on then we'd see him as a monster. But Hitler did many good things for the people of Germany as well, and you can't just paint him as evil unless you want to be a nuance-ignoring binary thinker.
And if you ignore the context of the Treaty of Versailles that we forced on Germany - which you probably do - and the subsequent hyperinflation of the Mark, and the US-originated late 20s depression - which you probably also ignore, or attribute to Gordon Brown - you'll have no idea why the Germans turned to Hitler in the first place.
So yes, you're talking shit yet again.
Hang on a mo, some of us were objecting to the love in for Fidel on the grounds that he was a dictator. None of us was objecting to the fact that he arose in a historical context, as all dictators do. The piece of epic country matters that caused this thread was a post in All Saints which included the line: "Cuba was very lucky to have him for 55 years" to which the only adequate response is to paraphrase Brecht and say: "unlucky the land which has need of heroes for 55 freaking years".
I'm guessing from our previous interactions that if someone posted that Germany was lucky to have Hitler for 12 years, you'd probably give them short shrift. And you wouldn't extend the shrift in question if people engaged in whataboutery about the unfairness of the Versailles Treaty or whatever.
I'm suggesting that we extend the same interpretive charity to Castro. There were reasons why he acted as he did, grounded in politics and economics - no-one is saying that he was a motiveless malignity or that he gazed into the Temporal Schism at a young age - but, even when those socio-economic causes are taken into consideration, the establishment of a dictatorship and Cuba's history of economic stagnation outweighs the gains in health and literacy and the failures of US foreign policy.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I'm suggesting that we extend the same interpretive charity to Castro. There were reasons why he acted as he did, grounded in politics and economics - no-one is saying that he was a motiveless malignity or that he gazed into the Temporal Schism at a young age - but, even when those socio-economic causes are taken into consideration, the establishment of a dictatorship and Cuba's history of economic stagnation outweighs the gains in health and literacy and the failures of US foreign policy.
I'm also suggesting that. But 'outweighs the gains' is the important phrase here. First and foremost, it suggests that there were gains, and being a dictator doesn't mean you have to use the aggregated wealth and power just to gold plate your taps.
Yes, Pete was talking out of his arse. I wouldn't have wanted to live in Castro's Cuba. But I would have wanted to live in Pinochet's Chile even less, or suffered the Contra attacks in Nicaragua, because as a leftist, I'd probably have been left alone in Cuba, but not in the other two countries.
Marvin and Pete seem to be two sides of the same coin. Both could do with the application of the clue bat.
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Forward the New Republic
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