Thread: A Truth Universally Acknowledged... Board: All Saints / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
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Just thought I'd revive a thread for those Shipmates in the process of searching for or trying to develop a relationship. Or, as Badger Lady put it so well in the previous thread, 'For those struggling with the beginning, middle, end, or lack of a relationship.'
So, how's everyone doing? (Assuming you haven't all graduated to the getting hitched thread since we last chatted ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
)
[ 15. February 2013, 01:40: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
Posted by Badger Lady (# 13453) on
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Hello Hazey Jane and thanks for restarting the thread.
Rather ironically, since I started the previous thread, I have graduated to the 'getting hitched' thread.[*] Badger Gent proposed about a month ago and we're tying the knot in August 2013
[*] Or rather, if I could find the 'Marriages and CP's ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
' thread (as I think it was called) I would graduate to it. It seems to have slipped off the board.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Badger Lady:
...[*] Or rather, if I could find the 'Marriages and CP's ' thread (as I think it was called) I would graduate to it. It seems to have slipped off the board.
Feel free to start a new one for 2012 - we usually have a new one each year.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Badger Lady:
Rather ironically, since I started the previous thread, I have graduated to the 'getting hitched' thread.[*] Badger Gent proposed about a month ago and we're tying the knot in August 2013
That's lovely news in itself, and also in the context of you having started the previous thread. Congratulations. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Given that no-one else seems to want this thread, perhaps some kind host could close it - feels a bit lame starting a thread on singleness and ending up by myself! ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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Hazey*Jane, it's not that you're on your own - it's more what to say! I got over last year's mess eventually and the current crush has its own problems, but not necessarily ones that need specific support. For the most part, I muddle through being single and in my early 30s - it's really only when crisis hits that the value of a thread like this comes to the fore!
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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youre definitely not alone, Hazey Jane. I also just don't know what to say. I could say a lot and it would mostly come out as self-pity. I try to suck it up and not sweat it. easier said than done. I feel a bit like: meanwhile, since I have no good prospects, I'm trying to have a life and not think about it too much. if Mister Wonderful appears, great! but I'm not going to hold my breath.
[ 07. May 2012, 04:29: Message edited by: comet ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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I confess I've kinda been hoping for this thread to reappear, because hearing about the trials, tribulations, and triumphs of other Shipmates gives me comfort on my own wobbly journey.
I did the online dating thing for a good while (though it wasn't, exactly, good...) and have one residual meeting from that in my near future, I think. In three dimensions, though, things are more interesting. And good. And scary.
For the past several months, I've been strongly connecting with a friend whom I've always considered rather attractive. We're not officially dating, and we may never get there (other person's just as anxious about this stuff as I am, and both of us keep a pretty close lid on our feelings), but there's potential. We'll see what shakes out, I guess.
Best wishes to us all!
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I could say a lot and it would mostly come out as self-pity.
Say whatever you feel like saying - you're in friendly company
I recently dipped my toe back into the internet dating waters, partly in an attempt to shake myself out of the inertia that followed a complicated long distance emotional attachment. Quit after a month as I just couldn't connect in any way reading profiles, and a creepy guy put me off. I'd like to meet someone in some kind of real world scenario, but I have no idea how or where. I can't keep taking up new hobbies...!
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
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I'm afraid I seem to have reached a stage in my life where I've given up on being someone else's special person, and having a special person of my own. There wouldn't've been a month go by without me feeling attraction to someone, or developing a bit of a crush - but I haven't felt this way about anyone for a couple of years now.
I don't know whether it's because as a priest my default setting has now tuned into 'professional celibate', or something inside my head has just died where libido is concerned ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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I know what you mean--a partner for me has always seemed kind of like a tattoo.
Let me explain. I have one (tattoo, not, currently, partner), and I did a great, great deal of thinking before I got it and I wouldn't have bothered getting inked with anything other than that. It was and is a very specific message, and that specificity happened before the idea of embodying it in a tattoo. If I hadn't chosen it, I wouldn't be inked at all--there just isn't a point.
Evidently, there are folks out there who show up at a tattoo parlor with the intention of getting something, look at the pretty pictures on the wall, shrug a bit, and pick one.
This bloody well baffles me. In tattoos, and relationships.
Posted by Nicolemrw (# 28) on
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I don't think I posted on the previous thread, but I'll try to stick around on this one.
My current situation is a bit complicated. I'm in the hopefully final stages of a divorce which I never wanted, but which now that it's come I want to get over with. And I'm involved with a married man, with the knowledge and approval of his wife (see the "marital celebacy" thread in purg for more details.) But I would like a guy I don't have to share, but I don't seem to meet anyone. I don't get out much and no one seems interested in me on-line. *sigh*
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
I know what you mean--a partner for me has always seemed kind of like a tattoo.
Let me explain. I have one (tattoo, not, currently, partner), and I did a great, great deal of thinking before I got it and I wouldn't have bothered getting inked with anything other than that. It was and is a very specific message, and that specificity happened before the idea of embodying it in a tattoo. If I hadn't chosen it, I wouldn't be inked at all--there just isn't a point.
Evidently, there are folks out there who show up at a tattoo parlor with the intention of getting something, look at the pretty pictures on the wall, shrug a bit, and pick one.
This bloody well baffles me. In tattoos, and relationships.
That's a really helpful analogy. I sometimes fear I'm being too picky, but I don't think I want to spend a lifetime with someone just for the sake of spending a lifetime with someone. I've never found an image with which I can imagine being associated with for the rest of my life, nor have I met anyone (available and interested) with whom I can imagine the same. I thus remain single and uninked!
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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the tat analogy works for me, too. I'm picky.
but why is it bad to be picky? the right guy comes along, great. meanwhile, I'll continue having a life. I've compromised in the past, it didn't work well. But a lot of friends (well meaning!) seem to think I should accept the attentions that I'm getting from some really great guys who are simply not the right guy.
If we have nothing in common to talk about it won't work. If he's needy it won't work. if he's afraid of women with children it won't work. if his only idea of fun involves alcohol, it won't work.
unfortunately, that describes most of the men around here. Lots of great men; damn few who can discuss things like church history or buddhist philosophy or the modern implications of colonialism on Alaska Native culture or the comparison of general awesomeness between Marvel and DC comics.
yeah, I'm a nerd. That's okay, though - I just want another nerd.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Thanks, Hazey Jane! Right there with you on the pickiness thing--which I prefer to interpret as "healthy selectivity". I mean, as long as our dealbreakers aren't things like freckles or a lack of perfect pitch, I think it's pretty reasonable to have a sense that it's best to connect with someone you're actually and specifically excited about.
Over the past several years--sometimes while dating a bit, sometimes while not--I've worked hard to craft a life that's intrinsically pretty decent. One that doesn't have what feels like a gaping human-shaped hole in it that I have to fill with someone else.
The thing is, though, that as much as it's utterly true that I don't need somebody, and most certainly do not feel like having just anybody , I am at a point--a good, solid, pleased-with-myself point--where I would like to share. Where I feel, not like "My God, I can't be happy until I have a partner", but where it feels like there's enough happy to go around.
And that has, I've discovered, another set of challenges. Chief of which right now is the feeling that maybe I don't have things nearly as together as I think I do, because there are so many people around me who seem to have much bigger issues and they manage this minefield so much better than I do.
I know deep down that this is a very silly metric, but how do other folks avoid the temptation to measure themselves with it? I need to get past feeling like, dangit, my ex with seven matching sets of baggage who has managed to screw up one marriage and one relationship since we broke up is dating again--what am I doing wrong?
Er, besides the run-on-sentences, that is. I recognize THAT error from a mile away.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Have been (rarely, like once every 3 or 4 months) going out with a man about 10 years older than me, but of course he has kids and grandkids so most of the time he's gone to their houses, especially Sundays & holidays, etc. Makes it hard to develop any "habit" of hanging out together when he's mostly gone.
There's also the question my widow friends ask from their own experience, do you really want to hitch to someone with medical problems and spend the last good decade of your life nursing him thru his final illness? One thing when it's the culmination of 50 years together, another when it's the culmination of 3 or 4 years together! I'm realizing it would have to be real love for me to take on that high probability risk!
(A friend has "hitched up" with an older man, they share a bed but not a house, no intention of marrying, it keeps the kids from worrying about their inheritance, and frankly it let's her out of daily caretaking a few years from now - he's over 80 - if she decides she wants a lesser part of that chore. Enjoy the good today, walk away from the bad tomorrow, he's no worse off tomorrow than if they hadn't met. Is that a fair way to treat each other? Maybe it's realistic, at this age we aren't stary-eyed teenagers.)
I'm trying to "get out more" even if mostly with other women, just found out about a local "women outdoors" club. I've never really understood the appeal of single gender groups, but having companions to go kayaking and hiking with would be healthier than staying home reading a book.
[ 21. May 2012, 04:04: Message edited by: Belle Ringer ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Activity groups can be pretty great. Is there Meetup in your area, Belle Ringer? There are lots of opportunities for all kinds of specific interests where I live.
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on
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quote:
And that has, I've discovered, another set of challenges. Chief of which right now is the feeling that maybe I don't have things nearly as together as I think I do, because there are so many people around me who seem to have much bigger issues and they manage this minefield so much better than I do.
I know deep down that this is a very silly metric, but how do other folks avoid the temptation to measure themselves with it? I need to get past feeling like, dangit, my ex with seven matching sets of baggage who has managed to screw up one marriage and one relationship since we broke up is dating again--what am I doing wrong?
Almost every single person I know operates a similar metric, self included. Not constantly, but it sure as heck comes around in cycles. What's even more annoying is that most of us know it's an idiot metric, and we know that the apparently together/sorted/blessed person we're looking at thinking "Why can't I?" about is carrying a big heap of their own baggage that we just don't know about. And that other people are probably thinking the same thing about us, which is baffling in itself.
Having said that, I have no idea what one does about it. When it mugs me, I do my best to just consciously think in other directions, focus on other things. Because as your own post indicates, the much-dating-ex hasn't got it right, that's why there's a trail of destruction. A trail that you don't have, because you've got it more right than the ex, but you end up comparing apples and razor blades ("THEY have had loads of relationships, I haven't had one" becomes "I'm shit at getting a partner" rather than "At least I'm sufficiently self-aware not to chase after doomed relationships in the first place, and avoid all that chaos and heartache").
Of course, it applies to pretty much every sphere of life, too. And it really hurts when you discover that your apparently totally extrovert, non-introspective friends suffer from the same malaise. Bastards can't even leave you with that superiority!
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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For some reason the recent posts on this thread reminded me of this poem by Ogden Nash (one of his very rare serious pieces).
[ 25. May 2012, 13:45: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
...or the comparison of general awesomeness between Marvel and DC comics.
What's to discuss? From 1960 to the early 1980s British Invasion its Marvel 100, DC nil. There is no comparison! (Then of course you get Vertigo which is a different matter entirely...)
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
For some reason the recent posts on this thread reminded me of this poem by Ogden Nash (one of his very rare serious pieces).
And so dismal and depressing that you can see why he mostly stuck to the funny ones.
Also its not really true, at least in my limited experience. Being with people I don't know very well often is better than being on my own. In fact its usually much better. And the occasional rare brief encounter, even if not leding anywhere else, makes me feel better as well. In fact much better. And the effect spreads out and improves the rest of life as well.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Such a helpful, wise post, Snags! Thanks for that. I may very well be printing that out and slapping myself upside the head with it repeatedly in upcoming weeks.
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
Of course, it applies to pretty much every sphere of life, too. And it really hurts when you discover that your apparently totally extrovert, non-introspective friends suffer from the same malaise. Bastards can't even leave you with that superiority!
Indeed. Sometimes, folks hold their cards and scars so closely that you'd never know what's going on until you get to a place that most people don't get to with that person.
As I'm currently discovering with my friend, who may also become my more-than-friend. Or maybe not, depending on how all the issues work out.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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Been meaning to join this conversation for a few weeks, but the essays are screaming at me (they still are but I'm pretending not to hear.)
I'm struggling with being single, and also with not having had kids. Which is really driving me up the wall. I love kids, but am very aware of the realities of having children (various friends have left me in charge of their kids for up to a week.) If I was in a situation where I could have children, I probably wouldn't want them anyway.
The same applies to being single, I'd really like a partner, but am aware that I like the freedom that comes with not. The ability to go away when I want, without taking into account what someone else is doing. Next summer i'll be job hunting, and again am very grateful that I don't need to only look where my other half (could) also have a job.
Overall I guess I want the best of both worlds, which means I'm not that happy in the world of singleness, but don't think a partner would make me any happier at the moment.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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I've been internet dating for a few months and am giving myself a break from it at the moment. I met some nice people, but the ones that I was attracted to didn't feel the same way. One night I'd forgotten to put on any boy repellant and the guy asked me out again - he was a nice guy, but an actuary and likes Yes. We didn't have much to talk about.
I met a guy at a friend's dinner party. He was nice and seemed interested. Being hopeless, I did nothing about it. Now I have resorted to Facebook stalking (and subsequently learning how to cancel friend requests for fear of looking like an actual stalker...) and wangling a mobile number from a mutual friend.
I texted this evening thinking, "What's the worst that can happen?!" Well, I could sit here feeling IGNORED, even though it's only <checks> two hours and 10 minutes since I sent it.
Oh God. Oh God, oh God, oh God.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
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Dear Mad Cat, I have always had a great deal of respect for you based on your Ship postings. Thank you for the above. It makes me feel less of a freak for being acutely aware that the guy I'm interested in on OKCupid has not messaged me back for *5* days - which is unusually long for him (possibly longer than he's ever taken to message back before, but I'm trying not to be a complete obsessive by not going and counting the number of days in between all of our previous messages).
I'm finding this internet-dating malarky a bit nerve-wracking, having essentially stumbled into it by mistake. I used to think I was 90%+ likely to be single for the rest of my life, which was a markedly less tense state of affairs, if also extremely lonely and miserable at times.
Ho hum.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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<checks text messages>
Sigh......... the boy repellant obviously kicked in then.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Aw poop!
It happens at times--once we send our energy out in the world, what gets done or not done with it is so maddeningly outside our control.
I'm a text obsessor--all must be very carefully calibrated and scrupulously proofread, all emoticons delivered at the level of the other party sending them, and the same amount of time must elapse on my end as typically elapses on theirs, to ensure that I seem neither too eager nor too hard to get. Ratio should be 50-50 of course between self and other party. And there are so many things to read into any delays or non-responses: I can really get myself into a lather about those.
Ah well, it gives us something to do, I guess...
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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There are plenty of people who don't read their text messages for a long time - a few hours delay is hardly significant. Even a day.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There are plenty of people who don't read their text messages for a long time - a few hours delay is hardly significant. Even a day.
That rather depends on who you think might be texting you.
Of course, in my day it was Waiting For The Phone To Ring.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Four days now Ken. Don't think I'm going to get a reply, which is a shame as I really thought he was keen.
Ne'er mind...... next!
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
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I am not too familiar with the etiquette of text messaging, but am a bit surprised that a person wouldn't reply to say 'thanks but no thanks' if they received the message but were not interested.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Yeah, but my mistake was that I didn't give him my number or get his on the night. I ask my friend for his number only because I was sure he liked me, but maybe it just seems a bit weird to get a text out of the blue.
My bad..... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
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Are you sure you got the right number then?
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Possibly not - if it *is* wrong, that's probably a good thing!
Next time I meet someone I like, I will endeavour to be less clumsy.....
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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there are also plenty of people who don't have texting as part of their plan. they never even receive them. try calling. Invite him out for coffee. go on, be brave!
(how do I know this? because of the same experience a year ago. text sent. no response. feel totally rejected. eat pint of ice cream. months *MONTHS!* later, find out he doesn't receive text messages at all and never knew I tried to contact him. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
)
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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It's so hard to not have all the information you want, isn't it? Perhaps you can check with the friend who gave you the number, both to see if you had it right, and to see if texting's something that this person typically does.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Whatever's happened with my wee missive, I think the lessons to take away are:
* electronic communication has its place, but it's probably not the way to make that first contact;
* don't be a wimp about saying what you want. Faint heart and all that......
I'm also waiting to hear back from people about flatshares, and have had several emails go unanswered. I think people maybe place less value on electronic communication.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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Just out of interest, and I don't need details, but what kind of text message did you send him? An invitation to a date? A love declaration? A witty joke?
Speaking as a guy, I think the last would probably work best for me.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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It was an invitation to go for a drink, wrapped up in a joky reference to something we'd been having a laugh about during the dinner party.
Maybe it wasn't so funny after all.... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
Mad Cat: It was an invitation to go for a drink, wrapped up in a joky reference to something we'd been having a laugh about during the dinner party.
That sounds nice.
I hope I'm not out of line saying this, but trying to put myself in the guy's shoes, perhaps it would be more natural to me to exchange two or three texts with joking references first, and then be invited to a drink. But I guess it depends on the person.
(PS I'm out of the dating game.)
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on
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quote:
I think people maybe place less value on electronic communication.
Just communication, full stop, sometimes. Or at least, any communication that requires the faintest effort from them to respond (so text, email, Facebook, Twitter, even returning a call if you leave a voicemail). I'm out of the dating context, but in lots of other areas, both work and personal, I need to arrange stuff with people and getting a response is often like pulling teeth. Even from good friends, when you're trying to do something they want you to do in the first place.
I used to put this down to an age thing (where I had low expectations of anyone under 30) but even my peers (add a decade) are pretty atrocious.
It makes oi mad, so it do.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Thanks LeRoc.....
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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This is a post more for just saying it all, rather than anything else! I like someone. We get on very well, we just spent a weekend away with two other people and it was really good. But he's moving to another continent in October and starting a long distance thing isn't a great idea, plus I have absolutely no idea if he's interested in me at all. I'm terrible at picking up signals of any sort! And now I don't know whether I should forget all about him due to imminent departure or keep being optimistic or what, really...
I did think before the weekend away that if my life was a film then it would all work out. Obviously, it's not (and I knew that) but it would have been nice!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Surfing Madness, I feel much the same as you. I love living alone, and would essentially like a sort of non-sexual friends with benefits situation, but the chances of this happening and the person in question not wanting more than I do is slim.
Tried internet dating, but not for me - mostly because all the men I liked the look of were between about 27 and 33 years of age. I am 23 but look much younger, and they felt I was too young for them...but if they knew the average 23 year old man, I think they'd understand why I was staying away ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Part of my frustration is with women's ministry and related bumf's focus on wives and mothers (not to mention the twee pink middle class emphasis) - I feel invisible within church culture.
Posted by To The Pain (# 12235) on
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originally posted by Jade Constable
quote:
Part of my frustration is with women's ministry and related bumf's focus on wives and mothers (not to mention the twee pink middle class emphasis) - I feel invisible within church culture.
Oh do I feel you. It's not as if I want to be that kind of wife or mother either. And worse, I know I'm not invisible (I'm only a couple of inches shy of 6' for crying out loud) but get the feeling that no-one knows what to do with me. I'm 30, single, reasonably attractive by all accounts and have a PhD. To be honest, I think the height and the PhD are the major hurdles and even they may only really exist in my head.
Perhaps it is a part of the sense that no-one knows what to do with strong, intelligent single women of my age except marry them off so they fit in a box like us that we can understand, but there has been a remarkable lack of understanding of my little urban family or the community I have built around myself - we are no longer students but we couldn't be considered a family or a household because we're not related by blood or marriage and none of us are children.
I also have huge reservations about the separations of men and women that go on in church - I have a lot more in common with full-time breadwinning men than I do with their wives and it disturbs me that our kids' work pits the girls against the boys on a weekly (I think) basis - how does that help them develop friendships and healthy strategies for working together? What does that do to Christ's 'neither slave nor free, male nor female'?
Last year I met a guy who ticked a lot of my boxes and we dated for a couple of months this year. Turned out we were really bad at communicating with each other. To the extent that having identified that, two days later he contacted one of my friends rather than me to find out how I was. That and he held some odd opinions on nutrition, the state of Israel and (very strangely in a Kiwi living in Scotland) was embarassingly pro-Britain patriotic. If he had lived closer we might not even have dated, but I felt like I ought to give him a chance as the initial signs were good.
And I was deeply frustrated that his arrival on the scene made my personal life fair game for gossip. Like my news was suddenly everyone else's to tell. It meant that I shut down conversations I would have been happy to have because I couldn't get over the fact that they started as a result of someone sharing things that were mine to share.
Sorry, that grew into a bit of a rant. I shall have to take some of these points away and ponder them to see if I get anywhere. Anyone got any more enlightened thoughts (even if they're 'that's interesting but not really what this thread's here for, go think about it somewhere else'?
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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Ah, the goldfish bowl of church dating. Where when a guy and a girl start to chat to each other regularly people notice and ask what's going on...
I think there would be a lot more dating if people weren't so damn self-conscious about the whole thing! And if it didn't seem to make your private life public property - although I hold my hands up and confess to being as curious as the next person. I don't have the solution though.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
Ah, the goldfish bowl of church dating. Where when a guy and a girl start to chat to each other regularly people notice and ask what's going on...
Although it's no different really to workplace dating, tennis club dating or flower arranging committee dating in that respect.
I've no right to be here really as I'm so longterm married I've forgotten how dating goes. I just come here to catch a whiff of the excitement of the ups and downs of it all...
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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To The Pain - despite being almost a foot shorter than you (so I'm not sure it's a height thing) your post totally resonated with me. The gender seperation thing bothers me too - girls v boys in secular youth culture is bad enough, why do we have to emulate that in the church? Shouldn't we be different? I also hate how debates on science etc are mostly attended by men while women's breakfasts (boak) talk about weight loss and other highly intellectual topics
A lot of what gets said about the need for men's ministry can also be said for single professional/well-educated women in the church.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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Another one agreeing here, the church doesn't know what to do with singles, especially when they get past about 25ish. I find that getting to know people is tough when you don't fit in the boxes.
Posted by AristonAstuanax (# 10894) on
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I've never been a fan of the gender role dichotomy in relationships—partly because I like women who are at least as tall as I am and have advanced degrees (as well as their own opinions on things), but also because I just dislike gender role dichotomies in general. I realize that this whole dating thing is so emotionally fraught and dangerous that holding on to what look like guides and rules seems like a good thing, but really? Is equality and honesty too much to ask for, even from fallen humans?
Okay, yes, it probably is. Still, it might be nice.
I think I'm the one person who's never gotten the "welcome to church, here's the list of single women, please start us a new family" push, though that may be because I'm older than many married couples who attend church. Or it could be that I know church ladies without single granddaughters who must be married off at all costs. I'm ruling out the obvious impossibility that I just know church ladies who don't mind others' business.
Posted by To The Pain (# 12235) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
To The Pain - despite being almost a foot shorter than you (so I'm not sure it's a height thing)
Ah, but you're probably not as heightist as me! I can be 6'3" if the fancy takes me and aparently that can be intimidating (or really, really attractive, or both, depending on who you ask). I'm almost convinced that the main reason my pastor has never had a normal conversation with me is the fact that he has to look up to do it. And I know it's shallow but I just can't envision a relationship of equals with a man I physically look down upon.
And in the other direction I haven't a leg to stand on - my mother is 17" shorter than my father so I can't really moan about all these short women snapping up the tall men. I'm sure they do it deliberately though.
quote:
...your post totally resonated with me. The gender seperation thing bothers me too - girls v boys in secular youth culture is bad enough, why do we have to emulate that in the church? Shouldn't we be different? I also hate how debates on science etc are mostly attended by men while women's breakfasts (boak) talk about weight loss and other highly intellectual topics
A lot of what gets said about the need for men's ministry can also be said for single professional/well-educated women in the church.
Our evening service once took the form of a topic introduction followed by small group discussions. The groups were allocated according to some little quiz thing about worship styles and how one appreciates God. I had a pretty even split between two options so I chose the group that only contained two blokes and had a really interesting discussion. I think that focussing on atributes and individual qualities is a lot healthier than expecting people to fit into arbitrary boxes based on their genitalia. I'm sure a lot of wives and mothers would enjoy content a little further removed from weightloss and how to be a good wife and mother. Or speak about weightloss if you like, but put it in the intelligent context of stewardship of the body and use the science to back up your discussions and build in useful insights from all the great body image work out there.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
Singles and churches, yikes! At a multi-denominational retreat I discovered I was at a lunch table of clergy. I seized the moment to ask "what is the place or role of the unmarried adult in the modern western church?" They all said "none." One said, looking frustrated, "all we know to do is throw them in a meat market together and hope they get married, don't we have anything better to offer?"
In a way it was relaxing, I had not "fit in" since hitting about age 30, by which time everyone is supposed to be married I guess. Women's groups became chatter about babies and formulas, I thought when the kids grew up my friends would have time to go to a movie, get together for a holiday, but no, they are off visiting their grandbabies.
A few years ago I figured out that after age 65-70 I'd have church friends again; and yes the widows do include me go to a movie but not holidays, they are with their grandbabies.
The people who include me in their lives, or respond to an invitation from me, are singles. I love being around families, but (except for some atheist friends) they don't want to share family time with me. Hey, my Mom was that way, wouldn't let me bring home an international student with nowhere to go at Christmas, "that's family time."
My tentative conclusion is singles must give up hoping for acceptance/inclusion by families, and build their own network of other singles. Churches are probably not a good place to do that because churches are run by and for the familied. Secular interest groups may be much better places to find friends.
(Man at the newcomers committee wants the church to adopt a "logo" of a multi-generational family -- that image leaves out singles, gay couples, single parents. It's an image of himself. It's an image of the rest of the committee so by majority vote we misfits are officially invisible.)
Posted by Think² (# 1984) on
:
FWIW I haven't had this can't cope with singles thing with my Quaker meeting.
As regards singlesand couples, I am going around to one of my friends tomorrow to be with her and her two year old whilst dad's at work. I rather enjoy being an honorary auntie.
My impression is that parents worry that you will object to being puked on by babies or jumped on by toddlers, or be anxious about children knocking your ornaments over when they visit your home - if you disabuse them of this notion it helps.
Posted by wilson (# 37) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I also hate how debates on science etc are mostly attended by men while women's breakfasts (boak) talk about weight loss and other highly intellectual topics
In the dim past when I went to such things the men's breakfasts at our church was mostly about football or cars. I'd've been more interested in a debate about science if there ever was such a thing.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
My impression is that parents worry that you will object to being puked on by babies or jumped on by toddlers, or be anxious about children knocking your ornaments over when they visit your home - if you disabuse them of this notion it helps.
That's just the ones who know me!
I consider myself extremely lucky at my church -- singles are very much a part of the life of the parish. I am also regularly invited to parties with singles and couples (o.k., it's mostly married couples and single women), and there are several married couples who invite me to do things with them.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
This is a post more for just saying it all, rather than anything else! I like someone. We get on very well, we just spent a weekend away with two other people and it was really good. But he's moving to another continent in October and starting a long distance thing isn't a great idea, plus I have absolutely no idea if he's interested in me at all. I'm terrible at picking up signals of any sort! And now I don't know whether I should forget all about him due to imminent departure or keep being optimistic or what, really...
I did think before the weekend away that if my life was a film then it would all work out. Obviously, it's not (and I knew that) but it would have been nice!
Hey, it's a long time till October to work things out.
If you've had a lovely weekend together, would it be possible to say:
"I really enjoyed our weekend together. Would you like to have a meal this week?" or something similar?
You could also say:
"I really like spending time with you. I'm rubbish at reading signals and I wonder if there's something between us, or not??"
If s/he doesn't feel the same, you've only got until autumn to feel awkard (if until then...) If s/he feels the same, you can see where life takes you. Maybe to a different continet??
Disclaimer: I am the world's most hopless dater, and I've had several glasses of wine, so, umm.....
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
You could also say:
"I really like spending time with you. I'm rubbish at reading signals and I wonder if there's something between us, or not??"
That is awesome. Should I be in a situation similar to current one ever again, I'm totally using THAT instead. It's simple, non-threatening, just open enough.
Well done.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
I agree - one thing I learnt in my assertiveness work a decade and more ago is that if you don't make things clear to others you might get an ambiguous answer back.
Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
FWIW I haven't had this can't cope with singles thing with my Quaker meeting.
Me neither in my Anglican church. (Nor indeed in my previous inter denomination church.) I'm always stunned to hear some of the stories shared here.
Though the 'network of singles' thing does ring true - the families at church seem to engage more with other families than with those without children (whether single, coupled-no children, coupled-children have left home).
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
It's not totally a bad thing - there's only so much interest to be found in the toilet, sleeping and feeding habits of other people's children.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's not totally a bad thing - there's only so much interest to be found in the toilet, sleeping and feeding habits of other people's children.
And so many parents of little ones seem to think that bodily functions of said little ones are appropriate dinner conversation.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's not totally a bad thing - there's only so much interest to be found in the toilet, sleeping and feeding habits of other people's children.
And so many parents of little ones seem to think that bodily functions of said little ones are appropriate dinner conversation.
Seems rather pleasant dinner conversation after you've shared a flat with Doctors.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I think I've been remarkably lucky in terms of finding a community to be a part of, regardless of my partnered or unpartnered state. It's definitely true that folks raising kids have less free time, and I've had the occasional friend who drops off the face of the freaking earth when love comes to town. On reflection, I think one thing that's really helped is casting a wide net, as it were--I know my friends with kids will probably not be able to spend time with me more often than once a month, realistically (but then again, that's not much different than my single, childless friend with a truly insane job.) It also helps that, though the majority of people I know are partnered, they're not ALL always and forever joined at the hip-so it doesn't feel awkward for me to spend time with them, and when I have folks over for dinner or games, it's not just a Noah's Ark scenario where I'm the lone dinosaur.
I've been thinking a lot lately about what makes a romantic relationship different from a strong friendship (besides the obvious of smooches and possible kids)--what is it, exactly, that I don't have if I don't have that in my life? I think a lot of times, our society sells this idea that a romantic partnership means the one person who is everything: your social network, your support provider, your soul mate, your confidant--all of the things you get from other people, but even better and more important because it comes from just that one. And I think I question the healthiness of that, just for myself--I don't know if I can be all those things for someone else, if that someone else doesn't also get at least some of their "human fix" from other people.
What are other people's thoughts about this?
In other news, I have a date this afternoon with a guy from the internet. And I honestly don't know if I want it to go well...
//
Edited because "much more different" make no sense.
[ 26. June 2012, 17:34: Message edited by: infinite_monkey ]
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
I've been thinking a lot lately about what makes a romantic relationship different from a strong friendship (besides the obvious of smooches and possible kids)--what is it, exactly, that I don't have if I don't have that in my life? I think a lot of times, our society sells this idea that a romantic partnership means the one person who is everything: your social network, your support provider, your soul mate, your confidant--all of the things you get from other people, but even better and more important because it comes from just that one. And I think I question the healthiness of that, just for myself--I don't know if I can be all those things for someone else, if that someone else doesn't also get at least some of their "human fix" from other people.
What are other people's thoughts about this?
Ok, sneaking into the thread as a 17 yrs married female here are a few thoughts. Firstly I think a strong friendship is the basis of a long term partnership and the romantic bit is what happens when you get the sexual attraction and falling in love which is wonderful and exciting but I think time limited in its intensity. When that calms down then a strong friendship is a very good thing to have. At its most basic I see being married as having someone to do life together with, who I get on with and enjoy spending time with. But I find that we do also need time apart. When we were studying together I found it hard as we were doing stuff together all day. I found I missed us having things to talk about that the other hadn't been there for.
But I think you are right that believing one person can be everything you need is unrealistic and probably unhealthy. It puts an impossible expectation on each other that is almost bound to lead to disappointment. Maybe when people live in more contact with their extended families or in cultures where the community plays a greater role there is less temptation to expect one person to meet all your needs and more people to fill the gaps that they are unable to meet fully. I wonder if that lack of wider support and community is a factor in some relationship breakdowns when people realise their partner cannot be everything for them?
By the way I like your analogy of trying to get time with parents as being like trying to get time with a friend with an insane job. Being a parent is like having an insane job, especially when they are young. There is no let up and the demands can be constant. It is very hard to set it aside and not talk about your kids when your life is revolving around them. I appreciate it must be pretty boring for the non parents but parents of young children may not feel they have much else to talk about even if they do get a chance to go out socialising. And that can be a big 'if'; when my kids were younger my social life was pretty non existant.
I think in general people often gravitate towards socialising with people like themselves in similar situations to themselves. It takes less effort! But we miss out by doing so. It works in both directions by the way. I have at times felt a little sad when the bunch of singles I know have been arranging events but they don't invite me. I guess they think I wouldn't want to go but as I said earlier one person doesn't fulfill all your social needs and there have been times when I have felt a bit lonely for other friendship and would probably have enjoyed joining in if I could.
[ 26. June 2012, 21:27: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
*bump*
How's everyone doing?
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
I was thinking of bumping this. Actually enjoying being single at the moment......wonder how long that will last!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Hey all!
Glad this thing's still got wheels. I tried to bump it a couple weeks ago, but realized that I had no idea how to accurately, succinctly express where I was and what I was feeling in terms of this Universal Truth.
Basically, I've spent the past 8 months or so in a very bizarre, deeply charged will-we-or-won't-we platonic romance with someone who became my closest friend over that time. Someone who, it unfolded over the course of these months, has really significant issues about intimacy and closeness. We got, together, as close to a relationship as either of us have been in several years, but in July, it became clear that isn't in the cards for us to get all the way there.
And I'm still processing what that means for my friendship with the person, which I still want to hold on to. She's really challenged by communicating about emotional stuff like this, so we can't really talk, together, about how to move forward. She tried, once, to figure out how to explain to me why she went from thinking we might be able to have a relationship to thinking we couldn't, and how that had nothing to do with I said or did in between those two periods: the end result was ten days of absolute silence followed by an email saying, "I've made several attempts, but everything I've written has been totally incoherent."
So we just keep making awkward small talk most of the time, reverting back into deeper ways of relating with each other some of the time, and then hitting a wall because either she pulls back (which is her historical way or reacting to closeness) or I do (which is my knee-jerk response, right now, because I feel like I let myself get too attached to her the first time round).
Grr argh. I know there are truckloads of Dear Abby's about how to move on after a breakup and stay friends with your ex, but we weren't actually even in the bloody relationship first by conventional terms.
Hope everyone else is on much smoother pathways!
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
oh dear, here I am.
I'm being very hesitantly pursued by a man 11 years younger than me. He's interesting and not insane. We share a lot of interests. He's a good guy.
But geez he's SO 20-something and I'm so NOT. He lives with his mother. which isn't a crime - he has a real job etc, but doesn't that say to you that this is a guy who probably has never had to sort his own laundry or pay the fuel bill?
And I don't WANT to be Mrs Robinson to anybody ever. I already have children. But I have to be honest and admit that the older I get, the thinner the potential field is. most men my age are married. and if they are not, maybe there is good reason for that. And the single men my age are not interested in me, they're after the 20 year olds. At least once they find out I'm NOT one of the 20 year olds.
He's not the first 20-something interested in me, either. but he's probably the nicest and least batshit crazy so I'm more worried about hurting his feelings.
ARGH! I don't want to settle for some young guy who will probably make me feel old and whom I don't really find attractive, but this whole going-years-without-sex thing really sucks.
someone tell me my instincts are good and I don't really want the youngling. please!
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
:
you total cougar! Make sure he's not after a surrogate mother.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
and THAT is a real concern. I seem to attract men with Mommy Issues, no matter the age. Like I said, I already have children. I don't want a relationship where I have to be the grownup there, too.
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
Not all the time, naturally. But IMO most balanced relationships combine elements of protectiveness/being protected on both sides. See
transactional analysis
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
Further to my last post, I know of two partnerships among my friends where the younger partner is immensely supportive in all sorts of ways. Mommy may come into it at times, but so does Poppa!
But it has to be said that the older partner, in these cases the woman, is often highly resistant and has to be persuaded that a balanced relationship involves admitting need and accepting help.
This may not, however, apply to you. (Dodges battle axe.)
[ 03. September 2012, 11:23: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I don't want to settle for some (snip) guy who (snip) I don't really find attractive, but this whole going-years-without-sex thing really sucks.
Surely that's the deal-breaker? If you don't find him attractive (physically or mentally), it doesn't matter how young or how old he is.
If a friend was thinking of dating someone they didn't find attractive, I'd tell them don't go there. You deserve much better than to settle for less than you want, and he deserves someone who thinks he's amazing. No-one wins!
But that doesn't solve the no-sex thing, I know...
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Wot Earwig said. And there are, er, other ways of solving the no-sex thing which do not involve emotional entanglement with another person who sounds like he wants more than just a physical connection.
Although, truth be told, I have the libido of floor polish (actually, perhaps less than, as floor polish is, er, pretty much designed to get more action than I do), so take that contribution with several pounds of salt.
Posted by Beenster (# 242) on
:
Comet do you fancy this guy? If so, take a chance. You may hurt him, you may not. You may end up being the one that gets hurt? I hope neither of you do, that you both have a wild and temptestuous and steamy time and then move on both completely worn out but having had the most marvellous times and memories that will make you smile when you have no teeth.
I do understand (slightly) your concern. I fell for someone who was twenty years younger than me - it was on holiday. He was perfect and I troubled myself about hurting him and so nothing happened. I chatted him up with the wonderful lines "hey, I could be your mother". wham bam.
Yup. Time I had a really lovely relationship. It's been far too long.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
Basically, I've spent the past 8 months or so in a very bizarre, deeply charged will-we-or-won't-we platonic romance with someone who became my closest friend over that time.
[snip]
I think I might have been in almost exactly the same situation. We started round about May last year, and went on for about 12 months before calling it quits. PM if you'd like to chat about it, not really comfortable writing too much more in a public forum.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
I fell for someone who was twenty years younger than me - it was on holiday. He was perfect and I troubled myself about hurting him and so nothing happened. I chatted him up with the wonderful lines "hey, I could be your mother". wham bam.
Yup. Time I had a really lovely relationship. It's been far too long.
Yes, I was thinking about this with a twinge of envy.
Beauty and youth doesn't grow on trees. When you get to my age.
[ 03. September 2012, 18:52: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Beenster:
Comet do you fancy this guy?
the reality is - no. I'm not attracted to him at all. a mutual friend is pushing me a bit, and it's making me think maybe this is my only chance. which I know is stupid. but in small towns I think it's easy to get into that mindset. the reality is, I'd rather not have anyone than be with someone unsuitable. I'm not looking for a relationship - I'm pretty dang busy and life is pretty full. romance (and bedroom gymnastics) would be lovely, but not worth compromising for.
I've just talked myself right out of this, haven't I?
I am really more concerned about shooting him down should he make a move. he's a nice guy. just not my kind of nice guy. I have no problem shooting down assholes!
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
Sounds like you've decided already. There's certainly no point in following anyone's inclination except your own. The department of kindly brush-offs could be a thread all on its own. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 03. September 2012, 23:00: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Better for all involved to be honest, clear, gentle, and, perhaps, relatively quick. If you're pretty damn sure he's interested, and pretty damn sure you're not, it may be kindest to let him know where you're at with things, as one never knows what kind of mental gymnastics he's going through right now trying to psych himself up for a move that won't work.
(Says the person who recently had the experience of expressing an interest in someone who then asked for a week to think about it--fast forward two months to the point at which both people choose to actually to GIVE THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM A NAME because that feels emotionally safer than really talking about whether the interest was mutual...) The elephant, for the record, was named Schrodinger. The other person, for the record, is ambivalently uninterested and massively confused (she actually sent me a less-incoherent email three days ago, and if anything, it left things even less clear than they were when she wasn't talking.) We're currently engaged in an elephant autopsy, as we try to figure out where the hell to go from here. Comet, DO NOT BE THESE PEOPLE. These people have Issues.)
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
bless you, infinite monkey. I promise to try and be as clear and as gentle as I can be. my problem is not ambivalent, stepping-around-the-elephants - it's the gentle part. I missed the day they taught subtle at school.
But I guess there are worse things I could be than honest.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
it's me again. I just need to vent somewhere "safe" and you lovely people are it. (have I told you lately that I love you?)
the problem with the young guy is getting weird. I don't know what to do. halp!
I told him - as part of a nice platonic conversation - that I'm not looking for a relationship right now (technically true. too busy to look) and would rather spend my energies on my projects and my children. I thought the message would get across and all would be well. at the end of that same conversation he asked if we could get together for dinner some time - just as friends. I gave a non-commital "sure. at some point. when things slow down a bit for me." this was meant to be a rather gentle brush-off. I dont want to be evil - I'm supposed to be his next director, for Eff's sake!
a mutual friend has already tried to gently warn him off. too gentle, apparently - it didn't take.
so two different nights now - including tonight - he has come to the bar during my shift, ordered one drink, and proceeded to sit there for hours basically staring at me. tonight - 4 hours. FOUR FREAKING HOURS of me feeling like I was being mentally undressed while I'm trying to bloody work. I was afraid he'd try to stay when I closed down, and got a bad case of the creeps. When I go home from work, I'm the last person in town. the sidewalks are rolled up. it can leave me pretty vulnerable. one of my door guys (off-duty) saw what was going on and also got the creeps for me. (we're talking staring, moony-eyed. no talking to people, just eyes following me around ALL. NIGHT. LONG.) my door guy hung out and helped me close and basically shuffled him out of there. Afterwards I go in back and find a text from him saying he's going to call me tomorrow and can he come over? I haven't answered.
(lovely door guy stayed until I left, wallked me to the car, did a "perimeter check" of the bar. he gets bonus points)
this after getting multiple text messages and facebook messages every day for weeks now, and him "liking" and commenting on damn near everything on FB. I'm starting to feel a bit stalked.
I just found out that for my son's themed birthday party this guy has spent numerous hours and a ton of money to make a super fancy costume. for an 11 year old's birthday party!
I dont want to be harsh, and I'm generally pretty direct (see: harsh) he's a young guy and acting very much like a moony teenager which makes me think that my usual bluntness will crush his little ego. I'm actually pretty sure of it. delicate artists types and all that. I'm starting to feel he actually might be the type to go into a depression spiral, and we are coming into winter.
I don't want that. he's a nice guy. the last time I had to do that all our mutual friends for weeks were being cried on and hounded, and I was being hounded a bit too. it's icky. I don't like icky. in fact, I've basically avoided icky (relationships) for two years since then because I don't want the icky.
I'm seriously considering making up an imaginary boyfriend or getting some guy friend to send me romantic Facebook posts or something to take myself off the market. it's dishonest, yes, but it avoids the icky. and this has just gone from awkward to a bit creepy - but not so creepy that I feel comfortable crushing his ego.
I don't do subtle or delicate well! Why why WHYWHYWHY?!?!?
am I overreacting? is this really getting creepy or is it just "cute"? Do I confront him and risk hamfisting it and really hurting him? and, who wants to be my make-believe boyfriend? (hah! just kidding. I think.)
OH HELL!
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
Seriously creepy and definitely time for an imaginary boyfriend and some laying down of ground rules - like the ones about not coming to your work.
I don't do harsh well, but I'd be working out how to do it here. Is there a more suitable girlfriend or a girl who thinks he's cute you can detail to look after him?
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
comet: I gave a non-commital "sure. at some point. when things slow down a bit for me." this was meant to be a rather gentle brush-off.
I'm not sure if the problem is that you 'don't do subtle well'. Believe me, guys are usually pretty bad at picking up subtle signals. (I've been guilty of it more than once.) My guess is that he interpreted your brush-off as "She'll want me later!"
Good luck with this.
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
:
Worryingly C~R~E~E~P~Y - has this guy behaved like this with anyone else? Your Door guy is wonderfully perceptive and it's so good he picked up on what was going on.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Perhaps the mutual friend could try a very direct conversation--one where things are explicitly stated, without you in the room feeling potentially guilty and possibly softpedaling things where the foot needs to be all the way down.
"Your attentions are making my friend feel very uncomfortable: she initially said she would like to be friends with you, but this isn't how a friend behaves. Honestly, if you continue showering her with this much attention, she's most likely going to want to cut off contact with you altogether: if that's not what you'd like to have happen, please step back."
You can't control whether or not him taking in this information involves a depressive spiral, but the information is real, and necessary.
Good luck!
Also: facebook has a custom feature--I'd block my posts from him for awhile, just to avoid giving him the fodder to moon over.
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on
:
quote:
I told him - as part of a nice platonic conversation - that I'm not looking for a relationship right now right now
Maybe he was concentrating on those last two words and thinking along the lines of "maybe next week, or next month then". I'm with LeRoc on this, I think (some) guys can probably do subtle a couple of orders of magnitude less well than you imagine.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
I thought this from Ariston was quite apposite when I was in a similar situation. (FWIW - granted this was a person who I really, really didn't want to go out with)
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
You could try the assertive approach and simply tell him that you find the way he is behaving creepy and you want him to stop. No sugar coating, no use of sorry or but and then carry on as usual, unless he carries on in which case you ask for a lock of his hair to put on a little wax doll behind the bar, in full sight, and then get yourself a packet of hat pins!
eta: I certainly agree with the last line of Ariston's post linked above - you have no reason to feel guilt, none whatever! You are NOT responsible for his actions or his comfort or his mental health!
[ 19. September 2012, 15:49: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
Oh, and the answer to the text is
"No, you absolutely definitely cannot come over. You totally creeped me out last night sitting staring at me and it was so obvious that you were being weird that the door guy looked out for me. This needs to stop now. I have blocked you from Facebook as part of this."
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
comet, you're going to have to tell this guy what unrequited love is and that this is it. That any notion he may have that "If I love her enough, she'll eventually love me" is a load of bollocks (or whatever that is in Alaskan). Tell him he is not by any means unique in this, despite feeling that way. In fact I'll bet most guys on the Ship have been here for a start.
If you don't call a very clear halt to this, it'll bumble along for months, giving him false hopes, giving you the creeps and generally running interference on both your lives.
As others have suggested, don't feel guilt and though you might feel tempted, don't even buy him a drink. He'll only treat it as a positive sign undoing your assertion that it's all over!
Good luck, take courage.
Posted by rufiki (# 11165) on
:
Is the door guy single?
Posted by Jenny Ann (# 3131) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by rufiki:
Is the door guy single?
This.
(I love the ship!)
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
I find it odd that my earlier post is getting cited, seeing as at least half of it was written to my younger self (he, at least, took "no" for an answer), the rest to some particularly bad philosophy colleagues.
Look, desperation does strange things to your head. Bad things. I've spent (spend?) too much time in the "if I strike out with her, there's a reasonable chance I'll never have ANYTHING" zone to not hear the hypocrite alarm going off when I say anything about dealing with desperate creeps who put all their hopes in "maybe." And yes, I've spent some good quality time in the Bitter Self-Recrimination Zone, where every half-pretty girl you see just reminds you of what a bad person whose ineptitude means you should probably Stay Away you really are. They're bad places, sure, and living in one of them drives you nuts.
Which isn't to say you should feel at all bad about whacking Dr. No over the head with a clue bat. On the whole, you learn a few things living in Recriminationville; Creepland, not so much. Sure, it's entirely understandable why he's being a desperate* little weirdo—what's the male/female ratio in Alaska, 74-3 or something?—but it sure as Hell doesn't excuse it. After all, people spend good quality time studying wars, serial killers, and the Holocaust . . .
*And before I get a fate worse than death visited upon me, I'm not saying someone'd have to be really desperate to be interested in you, Comet—but, if the only thing two people have in common is gender preferences and at least one partner is still going full speed ahead while the other one sees exactly how desirable it would be to get involved in this particular relationship . . .
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
thanks everyone, you've all helped me so much. I'm giving myself a cooling off period because I got freaked out last night when I wrote the above and everything I could think to say to him was awful. "you're fucking crazy get away from me!" or "you've turned into That Creepy Guy, is that who you want to be? Mister Stay-Away-From-Him-He's-Psycho?"
I haven't responded to his text from last night and thankfully he hasn't sent more, so I suspect he realized he might have crossed a line. Also - one of my door guys has said he's going to have a "father-son style talk" with him. I'll see where things stand tomorrow and then compose a carefully scripted little speech to send to him.
I'm really kind of surprised how much this unnerved me.
Ariston - the 5 men to 1 woman thing is a myth, we're pretty close to 50/50 now. during territorial days it was like that, though. This guy is new here, too, so cabin fever and general bushrat crazyass shouldn't have kicked in yet - he still hasn't even done a full winter. However - he is a pretty nerdy guy - with some lack in the social skills department.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
<bump so the folks on the Christian dating website Heaven thread can play too, if desired>
I had two, count them two, online dates last week. One was awful. One was good.
We shall see...
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Thanks for the bump infinite monkey!
My current situation is that I've moved to university and attend an Anglo-Catholic church. The Christian Union is pretty unwelcoming for non-evos so me, the (Anglican) chaplain and a couple of others are trying to set up an alternative group. I've definitely moved up the candle faith-wise although I think I'm a little short of full-on Anglo-Catholicism. Still, I am very comfortable with my church and love the smells-and-bells Sung Eucharist every week.
However, predictably, it's mostly made up of retired couples with a few young families. No singles at all. This is OK with me - I really don't like the cattle market atmosphere of 'student' churches and I find Anglo-Catholic/Catholic thinking on singleness so much healthier than evangelical thinking, probably because celibacy in women as well as men is treated as a worthy vocation to aspire to. It just means I can't find a partner at church!
I have been on Christian Connection (a UK-based site which gives you a week or so of free membership) though and having a promising conversation with another post-evangelical not too far away (he is in Bedford, I am in Northampton) - wish me luck! I have no problems with dating an evangelical, fwiw, I just find that they invariably mind dating someone who isn't evangelical. And I'm not. And that's not changing. I don't want to be with someone I have to hide my rosary from!
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I have no problems with dating an evangelical, fwiw, I just find that they invariably mind dating someone who isn't evangelical. And I'm not. And that's not changing. I don't want to be with someone I have to hide my rosary from!
Celebrate your own inclusive mindset and be assured there are other people out there like you. By the way, evangelicals from whom you need to hide a rosary can have changes of heart; I am such a one, although it took me 30 years. You may not want to wait that long.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I have no problems with dating an evangelical, fwiw, I just find that they invariably mind dating someone who isn't evangelical. And I'm not. And that's not changing. I don't want to be with someone I have to hide my rosary from!
Celebrate your own inclusive mindset and be assured there are other people out there like you. By the way, evangelicals from whom you need to hide a rosary can have changes of heart; I am such a one, although it took me 30 years. You may not want to wait that long.
Heh. I am 23 which I know is very young. I know I don't want to do the done thing for evangelical women ie get married by 25 and preferably have a child by then, and I know I would like to live on my own before I got married (if I get married) - years of living in hostels and in student halls does that to you I think! I am quite a Type A though - I like to be proactive about things. I find it hard to just let things happen. However it is frustrating to see Vineyard type churches full of young single men and my own church having none!
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE] I know I don't want to do the done thing for evangelical women ie get married by 25 and preferably have a child by then, and I know I would like to live on my own before I got married (if I get married) - years of living in hostels and in student halls does that to you I think!
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I obviously wasn't as evangelical as I thought, then - I didn't get married until I was 26 and had my first child at 29.
Very sensible indeed to have some time of independence and knowing that you can manage on your own. I never really did and while I know that if I ever did find myself on my own I'd learn how to cope, I think I'd make rather a mess of things to start with.
Please can I flag up just a tiny defence for church families who try to be inclusive of 25+ aged singles? I've been in situations where it's been formalised (you, Family W, take Single Y under your wing, you will invite him/her to Sunday tea and include him in at least one of your family outings per month) very unsuccessfully and others where it's been left to happen naturally, with a modicum of success. Part of the problem is that everyone seems so busy . Busy Family W consults busy Family Diary and invites Single Y to tea on a certain date. Busy Single Y can't make that date. This happens several times. Family W then thinks it best to let Single Y to say when a good date is. Single Y feels awkward about this and doesn't. Family and Single end up not seeing each other.
Where it works best is when Family and Single live close enough for Single to drop in on Family for brief chats after work and share a coffee and be prepared to be around the kids for teatime and homework, then maybe for Grown Up Tea later in the evening sometimes. It is also up to Family not to regard Single as handy babysitter. I've been both Single and Family and that's my experience anyway.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
Is it really that closely aligned with being evangelical? I wasn't into evangelicalism but was married by 22 and had my first child at 24, it didn't seem particularly young. Perhaps it's more of a generational thing?
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
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I was married at 32 and we had our first child at 33. Definitely not an evangelical.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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Evangelicals and conservative Catholics all seem to marry young—due to where I grew up and where I did grad school, I know lots of people in both groups and, well, they're all married. The people I went to not-that-snooty private university with? A few are married, but not that many. The people I've met here in The Big City who went to atheism/socialism/free love liberal arts schools? Even those who have been together six years haven't married. Yes, part of it's generational—my parents were married by 21 and 24—but there definitely seems to be a relationship between religious conservatism (or even religiosity in general!) and early marriage.
Which means that, for people like me who, while not old, are already past their prime church pairing-off years, churches aren't necessarily going to be a great place to meet Someone Special.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
Please can I flag up just a tiny defence for church families who try to be inclusive of 25+ aged singles? I've been in situations where it's been formalised (you, Family W, take Single Y under your wing, you will invite him/her to Sunday tea and include him in at least one of your family outings per month) very unsuccessfully and others where it's been left to happen naturally, with a modicum of success.
Yuk.
I mean, if you really are struggling to make friends, or are, perhaps, new to an area/church then that could be quite nice to be taken under a family's wing. But otherwise it's horribly patronising.
As a long term single with plenty of coupled up friends, I do not wish to be adopted by a couple who decide to bestow some of their family glow on me (Why only that way around? Why does the single person not get to share some of his/her life with the family? Is it less worthwhile?) What's wrong with just noticing and getting to know people and just naturally including them without such a contrived set up?
What I would like is for my existing coupled up friends to remember I exist, and also remember that they can still function as individuals (e.g. I arranged to meet YOU for lunch, so bringing your new girlfriend along without telling/asking me first is a bit rude). I would also like it if normal Catholic parish churches actually welcomed new people rather than just assuming they'll integrate at the school gate etc.
If single people are routinely viewed by church communities as 'other' or anomalous, that's really not a nice thing to be on the end of. And it's pretty dumb given how increasingly common we are.
Hazey
PS. Sorry, I know that was a bit ranty. It wasn't aimed at you, Nenya, just at a general social disparity that makes me feel uncomfortable.
Posted by Horatio Harumph (# 10855) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
As a long term single with plenty of coupled up friends, I do not wish to be adopted by a couple who decide to bestow some of their family glow on me (Why only that way around? Why does the single person not get to share some of his/her life with the family? Is it less worthwhile?) What's wrong with just noticing and getting to know people and just naturally including them without such a contrived set up?
What I would like is for my existing coupled up friends to remember I exist, and also remember that they can still function as individuals (e.g. I arranged to meet YOU for lunch, so bringing your new girlfriend along without telling/asking me first is a bit rude). I would also like it if normal Catholic parish churches actually welcomed new people rather than just assuming they'll integrate at the school gate etc.
If single people are routinely viewed by church communities as 'other' or anomalous, that's really not a nice thing to be on the end of. And it's pretty dumb given how increasingly common we are.
Hazey
PS. Sorry, I know that was a bit ranty. It wasn't aimed at you, Nenya, just at a general social disparity that makes me feel uncomfortable. [/QB]
Totally with you there Hazey Jane x
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
There seems to be a perception that GLEs get hitched young. Perhaps those who get together in university CUs do, but a huge proportion of the 20s/30s crowd at my very GLE church are single. I certainly wasn't wanting to get married at 23 (I was too busy moving across the country to do my masters, then moving again to get a job a year later) and I don't really want to think that I'm hugely past it at 31!
it can be hard as a single to fit into churches, formal adoption of a person seems a bit much though! Informal works much better and makes you feel more like you belong and people have a genuine interest in you. My small church where I used to live was very good at asking me over (on my own, or with a group of others) and I always thought they just fancied my company, not that I was a project!
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
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Might I feed in a possible reason why married-with-kids might not connect easily with singles in church?
In my case - it's the painful realisation that I'm so f*cking old and boring!
To unpack that a little - I became uncomfortably aware that when a couple who used to attend our church married and moved in together, I suddenly found it easier to find things to talk about. I didn't like the idea they might think I now 'approved' - actually, it was that their lives had started to resemble my (boring) own, and we had something in common.
I used to enjoy hanging out with all sorts - but un-calendared hanging went out with kid#1 7 years ago. Now kid#2 is 5, and I guess in theory I could go drinking with strangers in a loud bar...I find myself on special-interest web fora discussing machine tools, obsolete eletronics and penal-substitutionary atonement. Wife and I struggle to find proper awake time together for real communication. You wouldn't want me a dinner invite off me.
Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on
:
Massive assumption there that just because someone's single they like/want to hang out in noisy bars. It might be they would love a conversation on the kind of topics you describe face to face with a real person in a quieter place / welcoming home.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
Ah now that's the problem I have at the other end of the spectrum.
This is a safe environment so I'm going to come out and say it...
I don't like Pubs.
I know that makes me potentially invalidate my British Nationality status but there you go.
I'm not teetotal, but I drink in moderation and only when I feel like it. Even in my late twenties, this seems to bother people enough to comment on it and make me uncomfortable. While I don't generally comment on other people's drinking (unless harm is imminent), I don't find (very) drunk people as much fun as they think they are. I also get quite stressed in crowded, unpredictable, noisy environments, so I find busy pubs quite uncomfortable.
Unfortunately a lot of social bonding activities take place in pubs. This is true also of extensions to non drinking activities (e.g. the dance class I go to often concludes with a trip to the pub after).
Give me a cafe any day. I might be on my own there though.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Same here. I sometimes enjoy a drink, but it's never the focus of what I'm doing--I think I've only met a date at a bar once, and that was because the bar had a bocce ball court.
I think there are a lot of folks out there who don't like pubs/bars, even though we're by no means the majority. I like to think we're just a bit of a niche market, that's all.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
Ah now that's the problem I have at the other end of the spectrum.
This is a safe environment so I'm going to come out and say it...
I don't like Pubs.
I know that makes me potentially invalidate my British Nationality status but there you go.
I'm not teetotal, but I drink in moderation and only when I feel like it. Even in my late twenties, this seems to bother people enough to comment on it and make me uncomfortable. While I don't generally comment on other people's drinking (unless harm is imminent), I don't find (very) drunk people as much fun as they think they are. I also get quite stressed in crowded, unpredictable, noisy environments, so I find busy pubs quite uncomfortable.
Unfortunately a lot of social bonding activities take place in pubs. This is true also of extensions to non drinking activities (e.g. the dance class I go to often concludes with a trip to the pub after).
Give me a cafe any day. I might be on my own there though.
I love proper country pubs but prefer cafes to horrid tacky chain pubs.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Is it really that closely aligned with being evangelical? I wasn't into evangelicalism but was married by 22 and had my first child at 24, it didn't seem particularly young. Perhaps it's more of a generational thing?
Not so much generational as belief/morality-based.
Evangelicals tend to have a strong disapproval of pre-marital sex so the only solution to raging young hormones is to marry asap.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
quote:
Massive assumption there that just because someone's single they like/want to hang out in noisy bars.
Sorry - I'm just remembering what I used to like to do in the days I considered myself interesting. If there are any single churchgoers in the NW out there of either gender who would value some company and, specifically, a chance to discuss machine tools, obsolete electronics and PSA, feel free to PM me. Bear in mind I have kids, and if you want to talk it'll need to happen after they go to bed - 8-10pm, after which I fall asleep ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I used to enjoy hanging out with all sorts - but un-calendared hanging went out with kid#1 7 years ago. Now kid#2 is 5, and I guess in theory I could go drinking with strangers in a loud bar...
It comes back again. Well, it does if you get divorced and then your children grow up. If the choice is between sitting at home on your own and going out somewhere, I'm going out.
I even found (to my mild surprise) that I liked going to football matches, Something that was no part of my life at all till the age of about fifty, and that I would have imagined I would have hated when I was in my teens or twenties. One of the reasons for that is that I do actually quite enjoy being in a large noisy crowd. Loud rock music was also fun back when it was played in places I could afford to get in to and I wasn't old enough to be the guitarist's grandfather... actually its not so much age that stops me going to gigs (folk and jazz do just as well as rock. Even country music at a pinch) as that there just doesn't seem to be a fraction of the live music around that there was a few decades ago. There used to be all sorts of bands playing in pubs and small venues that you could get in to free or cheaply. Much rarer now. And I never was much of a nightclubbing/dancing sort of a person (and even if I had been it woudl be a bit pathetic at my age and weight!)
quote:
Originally posted by Yangtze:
Massive assumption there that just because someone's single they like/want to hang out in noisy bars. It might be they would love a conversation on the kind of topics you describe face to face with a real person in a quieter place / welcoming home.
But that simply doesn't happen very often. Or at least not if you are a single middle-aged man with a job. Opportunities for socialising are rare, and those that happen late at night. when you least want to be on your own, murch rarer. (The classic answers to "how do I get out and meet people?" are church and evening classes. Well, I spent so much time at church I ended up a preacher. And its not a very social environment. Well, ours isn't anyway. And I've done years of evening classes, ending up with two degrees among other things, and I work in the largest part-time higher-education college in the country - and yes that is an easier environment to meet people than church is, but the actual meeting tends to go on in the bar afterwards, not the class itself, if you just turn up and go home at the end you miss it)
And why are people in pubs not "real people"? Also conversations are easier in pubs and bars in many ways, partly because you aren't in someone else's home, so there is less social pressure . Unless you know the people you are with very well, other people's homes are much less relaxing that public places.
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
Unfortunately a lot of social bonding activities take place in pubs. This is true also of extensions to non drinking activities (e.g. the dance class I go to often concludes with a trip to the pub after).
Give me a cafe any day. I might be on my own there though.
I think that's kind of the point. Pubs are where people go to be with other people. Well, British people anyway. One of the reasons - the main reason I think - that I go to pubs and bars a lot is exactly because they are the only places where people who don't know each other very well do talk to each other. They are comparitively friendly and welcoming. A lot more so than church - there have been times, many times, when I've gone to the pub after a church social event feeling completely frustrated because I haven't talked to anyone at the church do, and then easily managed to get into conversation in the pub. Cafes don't have that chatty atmosphere. Well not in Britain anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
... and if you want to talk it'll need to happen after they go to bed - 8-10pm, after which I fall asleep
Ah, just about the time I'm typically getting home from work! And often going to the pub at 10 or 10.30 because nothing else is happening. And staying out till midnight or so, then going home and watching telly for a bit and maybe eating. After which I fall asleep ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on
:
Ken - my comment re talking face to face with a real person was in counterpoint to mark_in_manchester's comment about preferring to chat on the internet on subjects he's interested in, not about people in pubs.
Not that internet people aren't real either of course, but you get my point I hope.
Personally I too like pubs as you are well aware. But I also like going round to my friends who have children's houses and hanging out with them there. Even experiencing family life, not just being entertained once the kids are in bed and the parents knackered.
(I know, you married/partnered with kids people think we're crazy to want to come round at tea-bath-bed time but when it's not every day it's kinda cute. Well sometimes.)
[ 18. October 2012, 16:05: Message edited by: Yangtze ]
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
quote:
mark_in_manchester's comment about preferring to chat on the internet
In another life, a quiet few pints with interesting people sounds far preferable - and do-able round here, where quiet pubs are fairly easy to find. Wife would come too and babysitters abound - our well behaved kids would delight single friends who would drop in regularly just to be near them.
(In _another_ life, I sit alone at a bare 60W bulb and listlessly push my chicken-ding round a plastic plate. I do count my blessings. Sometimes.)
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Yangtze:
(I know, you married/partnered with kids people think we're crazy to want to come round at tea-bath-bed time but when it's not every day it's kinda cute. Well sometimes.)
Our kids are well past that stage, but I understand; you can walk away when you've had enough!
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
I just thought I'd give this thread a quick bump, basically so I can despair at it!
Last week a friend and I went to a Christian speed dating event. I had no high hopes, but thought it might be fun and indeed it was - we even ran into two other friends there. The next day my friend got her matches email (yes, no, friend) and got two matches and four friends. Mine didn't come through until Monday and when it did I got two friends matches. Which means that out of 12 guys, none of them were interested in me. Admittedly, I knew one of them well already and I also said no to two, but that's still 9 rejections. I thought I was being friendly and nice, I didn't talk too much (which I sometimes do) and I have no idea what I did wrong. I can only conclude that it's my face that's wrong, but I can't do anything about that.
It's done nothing for my (already not high) self-esteem and I feel disinclined to try anything like that again, which means I'm not quite sure what to do now. I don't want to be single forever, although I'm not desperate to get hitched, but if every attempt I make to even meet new people leads to rejection then what am I meant to do ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
?
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
I don't want to be single forever, although I'm not desperate to get hitched, but if every attempt I make to even meet new people leads to rejection then what am I meant to do ?
I know what you mean. I have no advice, but am also just here to moan! I'm despairing of how to even meet any possibilities.
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Poor you Scots Lass! As a veteran of speed and online dating I can sympathise.
The way I see it, with organised dating situations, you have to play the odds. I persevered with internet dating for about 6 months, and during that time met a couple of people I would have seen again, but who weren't keen on me. Conversely, there were a couple of guys who were keen to see me again, but that I wasn't fashed with. That same situation is evident at a speed dating event, but speeded up!
Also, it's only 9 guys. Think of them standing in your average bar to put it in perspective.
I'm in a quandry over someone I met briefly in the Summer. Our mutual friend is having a cocktail party soon and we are both invited. I don't know if he'll go. I sent him a text asking him out when we met (see up thread possibly?), but got no reply so I don't even know if he was really keen as I thought he was. Men my age are usually single for all of 5 minutes, so he may show up with a girlfriend. I also remember him having an annoying laugh, so I might just be getting angst-y for no reason whatsoever.
But at least there's something on the horizon. There's nothing worse than there being no prospects at all!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
No help but plenty of sympathy, Scots Lass. It's not helped by having literally no single friends - all the other fellow freshers at CU have coupled up now Considering ordination as I am, the idea of being called to celibacy (not that people in secular jobs aren't also called to that) is feeling like a possibility, albeit a terrifying one. I love that my church is full of old people for this reason actually, it means I avoid the cattle market atmosphere of CU and the local evangelical churches.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
Mine didn't come through until Monday and when it did I got two friends matches. Which means that out of 12 guys, none of them were interested in me. Admittedly, I knew one of them well already and I also said no to two, but that's still 9 rejections. I thought I was being friendly and nice, I didn't talk too much (which I sometimes do) and I have no idea what I did wrong. I can only conclude that it's my face that's wrong, but I can't do anything about that.
Or the other way you can think of it is out of a bunch of strangers, two decided that you had something about you that made them want to be your friend. Don't knock it. Equally, the guys you rejected might not even have had any 'friend' matches at all. Don't forget, by definition, all the other people in the room were also single (one hopes!) and have thus not met the right person. There's no reason to conclude there is anything 'wrong' with you - just that you didn't click with a mere dozen people.
So, don't turn up your nose at the 'friend' connections. Who knows where it may lead? Besides, they may have some other cute single friends you'll meet.
.............
As for me, the older I get, the more I'm wondering whether I'm unsuited to relationships. It's been a very long time since I was in anything remotely like a conventional one (and even that was sort of long distance), but I'm really very comfortable. I was thoroughly miserable a couple of years back, living in a place where I had plenty of friends but they never really had time for me. I started life over elsewhere for work reasons, but socially it's been great, as the people I've made friends with have actually got the time to admit another person into their lives. Now I have more sustaining friendships, I feel a lot more relaxed about whether or not I'm single.
I found this article and the reader responses very interesting. Quite a few points resonated. Anyone else?
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
I don't want to be single forever, although I'm not desperate to get hitched, but if every attempt I make to even meet new people leads to rejection then what am I meant to do ?
I know what you mean. I have no advice, but am also just here to moan! I'm despairing of how to even meet any possibilities.
I hear you both. It's maddening, isn't it? The thing I have to keep reminding myself is the numbers game thing that Mad Cat so deftly references. I kind of think of a gumball machine, and there are, say, four licorice gumballs and 96 lemon ones. Some people, it seems like, get the licorice ones straight out, and it's easy enough to get smug about that. But it's a freakin' gumball machine.
I know a lot of people who just got, well, lucky: the person they met first, under the same exact set of circumstances under which I've met a decent number of people, happened to be the person things worked out with. I ain't among those lucky people. And there are bits of my 'luck' that have to do with my choices and my self-presentation, but there are also bits of my luck that just seem like dumb luck.
For whatever reason, the undoubtedly dozens of folks you would have connected with were just not at that speed date. Maybe a couple of them will be at another one. Maybe one of them will connect with you somewhere else.
Does that make sense?
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
Oh, it makes sense all right, it just sucks that I keep getting nasty gumballs.
So, this is the kind of thing I really try not to talk about—it gets really tiresome really fast—but this whole dating thing sucks festering monkey balls. I realize that trying to find someone—anyone—just so you never have to find another "someone" ever again is probably not a good nor a healthy thing to do, but I've tried it more than once and, despite past experiences, despite learning, despite Knowing Better, am almost to the point of trying it again. I don't care that it ends up with me finding myself next to someone I'm not attracted to at all, who has no sense of adventure, and has perhaps twenty books of any kind in her whole entire house, at least it's someone female. Sometimes, that's good enough for a date or two or four months. You may spend three of those months looking for someone—anyone—else, but hey, you also know you won't find anyone else, so it's not actually cheating.
And so I try Online Hell. Message ten girls, put yourself out there, try to think of something witty or interesting to say, and get one response—who, after three messages, stops talking. After seventy of these, you get a date, but, really, it doesn't go so well, neither of you are feeling it. That one girl you met six months back? She freaked out because she wasn't ready to be in a relationship (or was it just that you seemed too much like a "relationship" guy? Or was she just lying to spare your feelings), just like the last three.
At this point, other girls's issues are giving me issues. It's kinda scary.
And so, I turn bitter, and try to reconcile myself to the likely future. Everyone I knew in high school is getting married. People I knew in college are getting married. My college (now ex) girlfriend is posting engagement photos (oh how that one just hurts—why not me as well?). And I, much as I try and fight it, slowly turn into That One Guy who hits on every girl he meets, just because she might be the last. I know it comes from being in a bad place, from being like a starving man trying to eat as much before the lean times come again, but still, it's not right. It's wrong to treat other people that way. Plus, who am I to try and chat up some attractive girl? I'm not that much to look at myself—at is "pretty" really something worth taking into consideration?
Blech. I really don't mean to sound so bitter. I mean, I know I actually am, but I try not to let it seep out. Sometimes I hope that, if I can only get a paying job (rather than a job I pay to do), my luck might change, but there are plenty of employed people with no luck out there—and anyway, employment isn't coming any time soon.
This one just plain sucks. Sorry about the rant, y'alls. I'll try to be cheerier elsewhere.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Rant away. I actually appreciate hearing another person diss on internet dating (though my preference is to state that it sucks "festering mongoose balls", as I'm partial to all things monkey.)
I think the negativity's gotta go somewhere, and if this forum can sop a bit of it up, we'll all be much cheerier in Face to Face Land.
Where my current problem is an insane inability to stop thinking about the thing that didn't work out, to the point where I'm much less emotionally available to the things that could. It's like my brain has this one little synapse that keeps firing, constantly reminding me of things that remind me of the person, constantly keeping me connected in a way that I really don't think I should stay connected. And I don't really know how to fix it.
Grr argh.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
I hear you guys. online dating - my extremely minimal experience with it - sucks ass. too artificial. I made a profile, it was up for less than a week and I killed the profile when all of these men "near to me" (alaskan men can be a little... homespun?) were sending me pictures of their trucks or talking about threesomes with their wives. not my bag.
And Ariston, I know where you're at right now. I was there for awhile, too. I can't tell you everything will come together because I'm still single myself. but I can say that that desperation grabby feeling can pass. I'm in a better place. regular sex would be nice, and a partner to share adventures with would be nice, but not something I'm willing to compromise for. And being single isn't the end of the world - it does require a change of view, however. and that's hard. All I can say is one step in front of another and work towards putting yourself in a better place and being where you want to be. a woman is more likely to find that attractive, anyway. and meanwhile, you'll be happier, too.
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
..... Considering ordination as I am, the idea of being called to celibacy (not that people in secular jobs aren't also called to that) is feeling like a possibility, albeit a terrifying one. .....
Now that's an interesting point, possibly warranting a thread of its own. Surely if you are called to celibacy it shouldn't be a terrifying possibility. I am a (very) long term single, not out of choice, and I am certainly not called to celibacy - it just happens to come with the state I find that I am in. I'm open to changing that state but I'm less focussed on finding someone (having Speed Dated and Online Dated) as, on the whole, I now enjoy being single.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
((Ariston))
Be angry. Rage over it. I've shouted at God many a time: when's it my turn??!
Your passion does you credit. If you weren't angry, you'd be giving in. Never give in. Give it all to God.
One of the stories on the BBC site really resonated with me. A woman said she was single partly by choice and partly by circumstance. There are two good men I could have married, but I wasn't physically attracted to them. I grieved over my lack of attraction, as I love both of them as friends. Now one is marrying and I realise I did the right thing, because she loves him the way he deserves to be loved.
So that was my choice. Circumstance has not brought me into contact with lots of single straight men: illness, having to move, anglo-catholicism......
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
I took this off to Purgatory to discuss some of the ideas and implications.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I hear you guys. online dating - my extremely minimal experience with it - sucks ass.
Mm, I've never tried online dating as it doesn't hold any appeal at all. I realise others have had success, but the only friend of mine who met her partner through t'interweb: well there's no nice non-shallow way of saying this. The guy looks like she found him online dating. I think you know what I'm saying.
Anyway, can I ask a question. To those of you who are practising Christians and looking for partners. Are you actively looking for a Christian partner? Personally, Christian singles nights sound like my idea of hell (actually singles nights of any kind). But really I'm being hypocritical. I'm one, as are many of my friends. Why do I think that any one I meet is going to be a crackpot?
Mind you, you could think yourself into knots about this sort of thing.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
..... Considering ordination as I am, the idea of being called to celibacy (not that people in secular jobs aren't also called to that) is feeling like a possibility, albeit a terrifying one. .....
Now that's an interesting point, possibly warranting a thread of its own. Surely if you are called to celibacy it shouldn't be a terrifying possibility. I am a (very) long term single, not out of choice, and I am certainly not called to celibacy - it just happens to come with the state I find that I am in. I'm open to changing that state but I'm less focussed on finding someone (having Speed Dated and Online Dated) as, on the whole, I now enjoy being single.
Well, I find that God calls us to plenty that is terrifying.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I hear you guys. online dating - my extremely minimal experience with it - sucks ass.
Mm, I've never tried online dating as it doesn't hold any appeal at all. I realise others have had success, but the only friend of mine who met her partner through t'interweb: well there's no nice non-shallow way of saying this. The guy looks like she found him online dating. I think you know what I'm saying.
Anyway, can I ask a question. To those of you who are practising Christians and looking for partners. Are you actively looking for a Christian partner? Personally, Christian singles nights sound like my idea of hell (actually singles nights of any kind). But really I'm being hypocritical. I'm one, as are many of my friends. Why do I think that any one I meet is going to be a crackpot?
Mind you, you could think yourself into knots about this sort of thing.
I've tried not actively looking for a Christian partner and haven't had any more luck so yes, I am actively looking for a Christian partner - that was always the ideal but the fact that it doesn't alter my chances means I now may as well exclusively look for a Christian partner.
As for the attractiveness of people using online dating, I've found online dating not much help but there are certainly plenty of attractive people there, whatever you find attractive. My best friend met her husband there and he is perfectly attractive. I guess it depends on what you want.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
((Ariston))
Be angry. Rage over it. I've shouted at God many a time: when's it my turn??!
Your passion does you credit. If you weren't angry, you'd be giving in. Never give in. Give it all to God.
One of the stories on the BBC site really resonated with me. A woman said she was single partly by choice and partly by circumstance. There are two good men I could have married, but I wasn't physically attracted to them. I grieved over my lack of attraction, as I love both of them as friends. Now one is marrying and I realise I did the right thing, because she loves him the way he deserves to be loved.
So that was my choice. Circumstance has not brought me into contact with lots of single straight men: illness, having to move, anglo-catholicism......
Also ((Ariston)), I empathise with a lot of that post.
I am having a lot of that, I find. I do know some single men (not friends as such - from Christian Union and the organist at church who is surprisingly young) but am not attracted to any of them, or the man from the Christian dating site I had a date with. I keep wondering if it's me being shallow, but it's mostly not to do with looks. It's just a lack of....something.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
. Surely if you are called to celibacy it shouldn't be a terrifying possibility.
Evangelicals tend not to talk about "celibacy" much (except maybe for gays) but I've often read stupid books or heard patrronising preachers drivel on about being "called to singleness" or "the gift of singleness" and to be honest it makes me want to push red-hot iron wires slowly into their skulls. A lack isn't a gift, and if you you want something you can't have it does you no good to hear a pompous lying fart try to tell you that you are better off for not having it (even if that happened to be true)
But what is true is that there are many millions of people who will never have a marriage, or a lifelong sexual partner, however much they want one, or even any sexual life at all, for all sorts of reasons. NowiIt might really be that God is calling all of them to celibacy - but if so it is going to be terrifying and depressing, feel deeply unnatural for many of them.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
I just wish all my friends would stop getting married/engaged.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
..... Considering ordination as I am, the idea of being called to celibacy (not that people in secular jobs aren't also called to that) is feeling like a possibility, albeit a terrifying one. .....
Now that's an interesting point, possibly warranting a thread of its own. Surely if you are called to celibacy it shouldn't be a terrifying possibility. I am a (very) long term single, not out of choice, and I am certainly not called to celibacy - it just happens to come with the state I find that I am in. I'm open to changing that state but I'm less focussed on finding someone (having Speed Dated and Online Dated) as, on the whole, I now enjoy being single.
Well, I find that God calls us to plenty that is terrifying.
Only if it is to help us have abundant life. Not if it limits us.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
..... Considering ordination as I am, the idea of being called to celibacy (not that people in secular jobs aren't also called to that) is feeling like a possibility, albeit a terrifying one. .....
Now that's an interesting point, possibly warranting a thread of its own. Surely if you are called to celibacy it shouldn't be a terrifying possibility. I am a (very) long term single, not out of choice, and I am certainly not called to celibacy - it just happens to come with the state I find that I am in. I'm open to changing that state but I'm less focussed on finding someone (having Speed Dated and Online Dated) as, on the whole, I now enjoy being single.
Well, I find that God calls us to plenty that is terrifying.
Only if it is to help us have abundant life. Not if it limits us.
Do you think celibacy is limiting though? God calls people to the religious/contemplative life and calls them to celibacy as part of that. I don't think they'd find it limiting.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
I am 36, I had a relationship with a bloke once at university for a couple of months. It didn't work out, at that point I hadn't realised I was gay.
That is my entire relationship history. I am coming around to the idea that I'll just break out in cats when I turn 40. (I already have one, he might object, in which case I intend to break out in eccentric coats and chocolate spread.)
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I am 36, I had a relationship with a bloke once at university for a couple of months. It didn't work out, at that point I hadn't realised I was gay.
That is my entire relationship history. I am coming around to the idea that I'll just break out in cats when I turn 40. (I already have one, he might object, in which case I intend to break out in eccentric coats and chocolate spread.)
I cannot wait to be allowed to wear an eccentric coat
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
why wait?
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
You could become eccentric aunts. You know, the sort that is regarded as a bad influence by overprotective parents.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
You could become eccentric aunts. You know, the sort that is regarded as a bad influence by overprotective parents.
I don't want children so I am happy to be just an aunt anyway My only sibling doesn't want them either though...
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
:
Nephew and nieces don't have to be biological. I am sure that your friends will enjoy honorary aunties.
There is great scope for mayhem there. And you can hand them back at the end of the day.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I cannot wait to be allowed to wear an eccentric coat
my "why wait?" comment above was just a silly off-the-cuff, but I want to add - I mean it.
When I was your age, Jade, I saw all this fun, non-conforming stuff that my eccentric aunts (mother, father uncles, grandparents) did and I wished I could do that too. I even put it off, in my mind, for that someday in the far future when it would somehow be okay.
My 20s and early 30s were full of trying to be normal (and feeling like a total failure at it) while wishing I could embrace the eccentric.
then essentially in one year my world kind of caved in. I was diagnosed with MS, my career ended, my marriage ended, my best friend, grandmother, and sister all died. I came to a conclusion somewhere in all that mess that "someday" wasn't okay. I may not have my "someday". So over time I decided to take my someday and use it now.
I don't wear eccentric coats, that's not my bag. clothing isn't where I find eccentric*. But I do make a concerted effort to be ME. every day. So I do theater now, even though the pay is crap it's so much more of who I am. The kids and I have Midnight Cooking Nights - I get up, crank up some dancing music, and we make cookies or breakfast or whatever and have a blast. I arrange Guerrilla theater events as well as other odd things that tickle my fancy. and I sing. and dance. and speak my mind. And I'm not even 40 yet.
Geez, girl, don't wait. You'll feel so much better if you wear that eccentric coat NOW. and if you really want to find a partner that is right for YOU - who you really are - you need to be you. There's some guy out there looking for the girl with the eccentric coat.
*well, mostly. sometimes it is. I've been known to costume up for no apparent reason.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
There is great scope for mayhem there. And you can hand them back at the end of the day.
yes, just ask Uncle Pete. I'm sure if he were closer he'd be doing his best to corrupt my children. They already speak with fondness of their Uncle Pete whom they have yet to meet. He's a master at spreading his Eccentric Uncle Mayhem far and wide. And it all started with some innocent postcards.
( ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
)
[ 15. November 2012, 00:54: Message edited by: comet ]
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
I am single and unpartnered for now - even though I live with my ex- and his wife - and I am uncle to a whole village full of kids - it is wonderful!
I agree with comet, the best way to be yourself is to be yourself in all your glory and let God take care of you meeting people!
The thing is God wants you to be yourself - it is society that isn't comfortable with the concept - and society often thinks it is God, but it ain't!
Go get that red hat that doesn't go - today!
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Geez, girl, don't wait. You'll feel so much better if you wear that eccentric coat NOW. and if you really want to find a partner that is right for YOU - who you really are - you need to be you. There's some guy out there looking for the girl with the eccentric coat.
I'm mid 30's, and am still not sure who me is. Most people I know already think I am eccentric, and live on another planet, and that's with me making an effort to try and at least appear to be vaguely normal to start with.
I agree with what is said upthread, being an honorary auntie is great. I'm unlikely to have children, and my brother is also showing no signs, but I am an "auntie" like figure to many of my friends children, which I love.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
I'm mid 30's, and am still not sure who me is.
oh hell, me neither. it's all about who you are at the current moment. subject to change without notice.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
Edging slightly back towards the topic of the thread, there can be a problem that the period in which you are most disposed to want/form a lasting relationship (teens and twenties) is also when you coming to an awareness of who you are as an individual. And that can mean rejecting expectations and assumptions you grew up with, and even ones you think you have espoused.
Or in other words, the person you are then may not be the person you will become - which may come as a shock to anyone who married the person you were.
I am very grateful that in my pious youth I remained single - though it made me very unhappy at the time. You would search with both hands for a fortnight to find a worse candidate for Christian Wife and Mother.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
quote:
Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
I'm mid 30's, and am still not sure who me is.
oh hell, me neither. it's all about who you are at the current moment. subject to change without notice.
That makes me feel better. Though I echo what Firenze says about changing and if we are with someone them not necessarily understanding the person we become. As I become more and more aware of how much I change the more I think how can I ever meet anyone who would be ok with any future me? That said at the moment I am in a place where the idea of staying single, may well happen, but isn't what I would want. I need to somehow work out that both being single or with someone would be ok. As at the moment neither seem to be ok!
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
:
And of course there is also the fact that if you meet someone they too may change as they develop in different ways through their own self discovery and development. You also need to be OK with a future them!
It just proves really that no relationship is static, more like finding a way to dance through life together, side by side, sometimes holding on to each other tightly, sometimes with spaces between you while you both do different moves. But giving each other the space to dance while at the same time supporting and coordinating with each other.
And just to add there are some wonderful solo dancers! You don't have to dance with a partner.
To echo what was said upthread from the other side, one of the most special people in my children's lives is one of my single friends who fulfills the role of slightly eccentric 'aunt' who is happy to do wacky things with them. She is a very intelligent woman who does interesting and sometimes unusual things in her own life. I think she is an excellent role model to show that you don't have to be married/partnered to have an interesting and fulfilling life. My kids have a great relationship with her and I know she is very fond of them. She is an adopted part of our family as well as being one of my closest friends.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
..... Considering ordination as I am, the idea of being called to celibacy (not that people in secular jobs aren't also called to that) is feeling like a possibility, albeit a terrifying one. .....
Now that's an interesting point, possibly warranting a thread of its own. Surely if you are called to celibacy it shouldn't be a terrifying possibility. I am a (very) long term single, not out of choice, and I am certainly not called to celibacy - it just happens to come with the state I find that I am in. I'm open to changing that state but I'm less focussed on finding someone (having Speed Dated and Online Dated) as, on the whole, I now enjoy being single.
Well, I find that God calls us to plenty that is terrifying.
Only if it is to help us have abundant life. Not if it limits us.
Do you think celibacy is limiting though? God calls people to the religious/contemplative life and calls them to celibacy as part of that. I don't think they'd find it limiting.
I agree. My point is that some have celibacy thrust upon them by the views of others. if it limits them, then it isn't a genuine call for them.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
I like that solo dance image Lucia. Maybe next time I'm asked I'll just say: "I'm a soloist."
When you're a soloist, you can use the space around you differently. And balance needs to be centred differently.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
My point is that some have celibacy thrust upon them by the views of others. if it limits them, then it isn't a genuine call for them.
Exactly. LIke, for a start, any divorced person who is a sincere Roman Catholic. There must be millions of them. And many more have celibacy thrust upon them by circumstance. Or rather singleness, not celibacy, because celibacy is surely only celibacy if chosen, or at any rate if accepted. When merely endured it probably doens;t count as celibacy. And certainly not if somoen is desperately hoping for their situation to change.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I like that solo dance image Lucia. Maybe next time I'm asked I'll just say: "I'm a soloist."
When you're a soloist, you can use the space around you differently. And balance needs to be centred differently.
Me too - throughout my life I have always been a soloist at heart, in general. I suppose I just wonder if those in paired dances are having more fun, but then that can be put in with me wishing I had an inside leg measurement of more than 27"
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
My point is that some have celibacy thrust upon them by the views of others. if it limits them, then it isn't a genuine call for them.
Exactly. LIke, for a start, any divorced person who is a sincere Roman Catholic. There must be millions of them. And many more have celibacy thrust upon them by circumstance. Or rather singleness, not celibacy, because celibacy is surely only celibacy if chosen, or at any rate if accepted. When merely endured it probably doens;t count as celibacy. And certainly not if somoen is desperately hoping for their situation to change.
That's an interesting point - and maybe celibacy is only for those called to it, while abstinence is for those who aren't.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
I like the dancing analogue - and think of something like jive, where both partners are using balancing forces in a creative way. And while one can do things to other sorts of dance music alone (if looking odd), that sort of dance just cannot happen solo. So if one partner suddenly feels called to go off and sit out for ever, thus imposing abstinence on the other, it's a bit discombobulating.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
I've heard "solos" used for single people before; to my ears, it sounds like a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not single. Call it identity politics for the less oppressed.
Not to say it doesn't suck to get asked by your parents and family when you go home for the holidays (like, say, in a week) if you've met someone new. And Christmas just sucks—the implicit message that, if you're not with someone, you're a lesser person . . .
Okay, I realize that at least a third of the reason I'm looking for Miss Right for Now is the social aspect—the respectability, the fact that I won't have to answer uncomfortable hints from the relatives, being able to have the "right" status on the Book of Faces, being able to look the ex in the eye when she gets married, not feeling utterly hopeless next to all the newly married couples, having someone to shop for come Christmas—and that I shouldn't care about that. But I do, and so do all the people around me.
Can one of you do me a favor and either change society, or make me stop caring about such petty things? Thx.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Ariston: I've heard "solos" used for single people before; to my ears, it sounds like a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not single.
Ít's kind of funny: the Dutch word for 'single' is vrijgezel. In the last decade, the Dutch media introduced a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not vrijgezel. This word they introduced is 'single'
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
:
I think that if you are not happy with your unattached state there isn't really going to be any word to describe yourself that you will like and find affirming. Because fundamentally you don't like the concept that it is describing whatever you call it. But some words may still be preferable to others and since people tend to want to identify each other with some kind of category in life probably better to choose and promote your own preferred description of your status than allow others to impose one on you.
So if you have to self-identify call yourself, unpartnered, solo, single, free, unattached, eligible bachelor, independent traveler through life, still looking, or whatever feels most appropriate. But make it your choice.
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
:
A while ago here in the Uk there was a tv prog (can't remember the title) where someone with Indian roots took a different unattached woman each week and applied some of the matchmaking approach used in India. I say "some" because she didn't use the astrological and personality tests that my Indian colleagues have had when their marriage were being arranged.
Part of this approach was that she asked the mother to identify which of her friends had a son who might be the right sort of age. Then she got the matchee to ask her friends to do the same with their friends. The idea behind this is that friends and friends of friends are likely to have contacts with similar interests and values, and so result in a more successful match.
This approach puts a level of responsibility onto the people around to help increase the network of unattached people. Unfortunately I'm not sure everyone is so altruistic or would see the point of it - when I suggested doing this in my own network of singles the only response that I got was "well who have you got for me?" (I do have a track record on introducing people who eventually got married) with a total reluctance to look at possibilities for others.
But it would be interesting to see it being adopted in a western society context.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I genuinely shudder to think at what my mother would come up with in terms of possible partners, but I do think there's something to be said for matchmaking among one's "family of choice", as it were--friends have a level of insight about us, and, one hopes, a strong interest in our happiness.
It's not commonly done in my social network, though--pity.
[ 17. November 2012, 01:48: Message edited by: infinite_monkey ]
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Ariston: I've heard "solos" used for single people before; to my ears, it sounds like a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not single.
Ít's kind of funny: the Dutch word for 'single' is vrijgezel. In the last decade, the Dutch media introduced a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not vrijgezel. This word they introduced is 'single'
Hah! This is very true. "Single" sounds very hip to my ears. I've been listening to too much Dutch. What's in a word, eh?
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Hah! This is very true. "Single" sounds very hip to my ears. I've been listening to too much Dutch. What's in a word, eh?
One can not listen to "too much Dutch". It simply isn't possible.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
the Dutch word for 'single' is vrijgezel. In the last decade, the Dutch media introduced a twee little euphemism used to make yourself sound hip, with it, and not vrijgezel. This word they introduced is 'single'
To me that just makes me think vajazzle ...
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Doublethink: To me that just makes me think vajazzle ...
Another word I had to look up. I'm learning more and more on the Ship
Posted by Freelance Monotheist (# 8990) on
:
A combination of things has made me realise I'm probably never going to have a romantic relationship/settle down & procreate. Firstly, my biological clock, that was ticking deafeningly loudly has just stopped completely (or, if it's still active, has become inaudible), but it was probably worn out as it's been at it for 2/3 of my life! Secondly, I can only see the disadvantages to being in a partnership (compromising my leisure time, of which I have precious little, for example) and I've never known anything but singleness, so I've become accustomed to it. I compare it to being an only child vs having siblings-if you don't know any different, then that's what's normal for you. Thirdly, it's taken me most of my life to like myself, and that was an uphill struggle, so goodness knows how long it would take me to get used to having a non-platonic, non-family relationship with someone!
Also, working in childcare has made me see just how dreadful children can be and it's made me want to have my tubes tied on several occasions. Then, when they're well-behaved, I get to love them and be a mother-figure to them for a bit, which is lovely, on a short-term basis. My 3 siblings are all paired off, so at some point in the fairly distant future I'll probably get to be cool Auntie FM who gives the cool gifts and takes them to interesting places and does arty stuff with them. My youngest sibling has said if she procreates, she'll take me on to look after her offspring, which is lovely!
Oh, and I love the tattoo analogy back on page 1 too, it's so apt!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I've come to two realizations about a longterm relationship for me:
1) I really, really would like to try my hand at one again.
2) It is seriously gonna be difficult.
There's hope in that, but also...well, there will always be the timeless allure of thousands of cats.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
there will always be the timeless allure of thousands of cats.
One of the advantages of the single state. Mr Nen doesn't like cats.
Nen - frustrated feline admirer.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
I've come to two realizations about a longterm relationship for me:
1) I really, really would like to try my hand at one again.
2) It is seriously gonna be difficult.
There's hope in that, but also...well, there will always be the timeless allure of thousands of cats.
I'm with you there.
I'm mesmerised by the thought of a thousand cats.... one of my fears is to be one of the invisible old ladies, but somehow I don't think that will happen. I'll be wearing purple and drinking them all under the table.
Posted by Adrienne (# 2334) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I'll be wearing purple and drinking them all under the table.
I'll be wearing magenta and matching you glass for glass
A
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I'm mesmerised by the thought of a thousand cats.... one of my fears is to be one of the invisible old ladies, but somehow I don't think that will happen. I'll be wearing purple and drinking them all under the table.
The key, I think, to avoid being one of the invisible old ladies, is your choice of red hat... and keeping it from the Moggies.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I'm mesmerised by the thought of a thousand cats.... one of my fears is to be one of the invisible old ladies.
I made a bargain with a friend years ago: if we were single when we reached our mid 70s we'd move in together and spend all our time calling young handymen to come fix our plumbing.
She's got a boyfriend since then , but he's an easy-going guy; he won't mind.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
she asked the mother to identify which of her friends had a son who might be the right sort of age. Then she got the matchee to ask her friends to do the same with their friends.
... when I suggested doing this in my own network of singles the only response that I got was "well who have you got for me?"
My parents met at a small party created for the purpose of introducing them to each other. I'm under the impression that sort of "arranging for two people to meet" was common back then. But parents may have had more motivation -- in the 20s and 30s, a woman usually lived at home until she married.
Weddings used to be a good place to meet other single people, but the last couple of weddings when I teased the groom (a friend) about the lack of single people, he said he doesn't know any single people. Marrieds commonly abandon their single friends the day they marry, but now they effectively marry a few years before the official wedding and have long since left behind any singles they once knew.
More intriguing, when I ask people "How many friends do you have, real friends, people you can be honest with and when things go badly wrong you can count on each other to help" the answer is usually "one," rarely "two." Maybe we aren't introducing people to each other because we don't know people to introduce? Or maybe we're afraid if we introduce good friend Julie to Sam, and they hit it off, we'll lose Julie as a friend because she and Sam will abandon their single friends, and the "one real friend" will become "none"?
What really interests me, when I say "lets all get together and bring our one good friend and we'll all get to make more friends" the answer is "no."
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Marrieds commonly abandon their single friends the day they marry, but now they effectively marry a few years before the official wedding and have long since left behind any singles they once knew.
More intriguing, when I ask people "How many friends do you have, real friends, people you can be honest with and when things go badly wrong you can count on each other to help" the answer is usually "one," rarely "two." Maybe we aren't introducing people to each other because we don't know people to introduce? Or maybe we're afraid if we introduce good friend Julie to Sam, and they hit it off, we'll lose Julie as a friend because she and Sam will abandon their single friends, and the "one real friend" will become "none"?
What really interests me, when I say "lets all get together and bring our one good friend and we'll all get to make more friends" the answer is "no."
As someone who is single, and has been so -- except for a few months when i was engaged to someone way back when i was in my late 20s -- i certainly feel like the above is the case. I am single, i never felt that i had a calling to the celibate life, and i truly treasure my low in quqntity but high in quality friendships. I live alone but i don't feel lonely because of being blessed with a small wonderful, mostly non-genetic, family.
Yet there have been good friends in a committed relationship over time who have seemed to drift away. Of course -- now they have different priorities. Sometimes it has made me feel if my immaturity has been at play for not being in a permanent committed relationship. Occasionally it has crossed my mind that sharing a household with someone might be nice, at other times i feel it may be a good thing. I never was able to get into the whole dating thing. The whole "hunting for a mate" thing is so not me. Probably Asperger's Syndrome has had something to do with it.
If i was to be in a relationship with someone i'd really want to be attracted to them and for them to be attracted to me in the same way. That has never happened. No one i have ever been attracted to has been similarly attracted to me -- in each case they would always be made clear to me that "I like you as a friend".
In the case of my one engagement back in my late 20s, it was she who was in love with me, and whom i liked very much as a friend, but was not in love with. But i thought at the time it was past time for me to be in a relationship and i did like her very much as a friend, so why not? The result of building this relationship on such a dubious foundation was that it of course failed, plus I lost her as a friend.
So at this point in my life i find myself wondering if it can be ascribed to my failure to grow up, and if i should be open to a relationship, and if so, how. On the other hand overall i am happy in so many ways, and still do have a few wonderful friends, mostly unattached as i.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
<snip>
So at this point in my life i find myself wondering if it can be ascribed to my failure to grow up, and if i should be open to a relationship, and if so, how. On the other hand overall i am happy in so many ways, and still do have a few wonderful friends, mostly unattached as i.
You sound like you've built a lovely life for yourself Malik, one that a partner would be lucky to share.
I know what you mean about feeling that you haven't grown up. I've had the impression from some coupled or married people that my state, unencumbered as it is by children or partner, indicates a lack of maturity or seriousness. It makes me furious. When I think of what I've faced and dealt with without the support of a partner..... and faced it down and got on with making my life..... f***ing come over here and call me immature ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Having said that, I still know how to play, and as a soloist, I have the chance to. I think the duets envy this and call it immature. I don't see it as immature. I see it as contributing to various social and cultural ..... 'things'.
And if my consolation for not having a family at home is being able to choose not to go straight home after a concert, and anyone begrudges me that, they can f*** right off.
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on
:
As a married couple without children, and with a lifestyle that isn't designed to just maximise income, we often get this reaction - and as you suggest, it is usually based on jealousy.
There is no question that married people with children do not in any way make up the happiest group of people.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
There is no question that married people with children do not in any way make up the happiest group of people.
I think I often imagine that I'd be happier if I was married with children. Certainly, that's the path I hoped I might take. It's good to be reminded that happiness doesn't come from either being partnered or single. I guess happiness comes from trying every day to love God and do His will, and love other people and love yourself.
Thanks Drifting Star
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
:
I have girly nights out with two special friends who are each married with children, and I am always reminded of how that isn't necessarily the best state to be in, and they usually remark wistfully on what I am able to do as a solo.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
I have at least one friend who seems to think that all life's problems would be solved if she were to get married, and seems resentful that she isn't. It's difficult to remember that what it will do is change the context, not fix everything.
On a more "back to me" note, having spent a lot of last week feeling pretty miserable about myself, I think I might have unintentionally been on a date on Monday. A friend and I both happened to have the day off and he suggested we do something, so off we went to Greenwich for the day (recommended trip, btw). The very date like part was that he paid for everything and it had a bit of a "getting to know you more" vibe about it. I'm not at all sure that I want this relationship to go beyond friendship, so am going to have consider carefully, but it certainly made me feel much better about myself!
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
I have girly nights out with two special friends who are each married with children, and I am always reminded of how that isn't necessarily the best state to be in, and they usually remark wistfully on what I am able to do as a solo.
Marriage with or without kids has it problems. So does aloneness.
Most of what marrieds think I can do solo they do too, and with someone to share the planning, the cost, and the pleasure of the activity. A lot of the "you are so lucky you are single" is them comparing a life of adult responsibilities with their memories of life as a carefree young adult, and thinking the young adult life is the single adult life. It's not.
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
I have girly nights out with two special friends who are each married with children, and I am always reminded of how that isn't necessarily the best state to be in, and they usually remark wistfully on what I am able to do as a solo.
Marriage with or without kids has it problems. So does aloneness.
Most of what marrieds think I can do solo they do too, and with someone to share the planning, the cost, and the pleasure of the activity. A lot of the "you are so lucky you are single" is them comparing a life of adult responsibilities with their memories of life as a carefree young adult, and thinking the young adult life is the single adult life. It's not.
I can't say I don't wish that I have someone to share the planning etc or that I don't miss out on things that are best done as a twosome, but, for example, I am able to go where I'd like to go, when and how. In the ideal marriage this would be fine, and that is wonderful, but not everyone in a marriage has that. If a major decision needs to be made, I'd love to have someone to share that responsibility with, and in an ideal marriage that would happen, and that is great. But not every couple has that experience. I'd love to have someone to spend Christmas with, but can't imagine what it might be like to keep so many people happy in their expectations of the season. In the ideal family this would all go smoothly and I have great respect for them, but not every family manages to do this. And so it goes on. And on.
It's not nostalgia for their young adult life that makes them wistful - these friends know that I don't always find being on my own easy and that it comes with responsibilities, just as I know they don't always find being married and parents is easy. When they tell me of what they have been doing as couples/families and I share what I've been doing as a solo I think there is a balance - some things you can't do so well as a solo, other things you can better do as a solo. But I have to admit to needing to be in the right place to be able to see it that way and see myself as solo rather than alone.
Posted by Sola gratia (# 14065) on
:
[delurking]
Hello all, hope there's room for one more confused Christian single (TM)?
I am currently getting my head round a vaguely similar situation to Scots Lass's maybe-date and would welcome advice, if I may be so bold.
I moved in with an acquaintance for a few months this year as one of her housemates had to quit the contract early and they needed someone to fill in. I was new to the city and in need of similarly-aged friends, so thought this was a good opportunity to meet people. I got to know her much better, obviously, and came to know and get on brilliantly with her best friend and housemate. When we moved out this summer at the end of the tenancy, the acquaintance moved away but me and her best friend kept in touch as we were both still working in the same city. In fact, he texted the very day after I moved out to arrange to meet for lunch.
I didn’t think much of this until a month or so later when it occurred to me we had been seeing each other, often just the two of us but sometimes with friends, around once a week for two months, including at weekends. Even now, four months later, we exchange some joke or other via text or social networks. His best friend/my acquaintance did mention the amount of online banter between us when I saw her recently, but I just thought we were just messing about and enjoying finding someone with a similar sense of humour.
I have never heard him express an interest in anyone( of either gender) romantically, let alone sexually, although I have seen him say he was in love once (I suspect with the best friend). Partly because of this I had been, subconsciously perhaps, and rightly or wrongly, working on the assumption he might well be gay. He has some traits which one would call camp, and is definitely not interested in stereotypically ‘manly’ things (sports, war, etc.), preferring books and baking and the company of many female friends, but I don’t believe that necessarily signifies gayness.
He is lovely and kind and very, very funny, and though I hadn’t thought about it at all while we were housemates, I think I probably would be interested in seeing him in a more serious capacity were he also interested. But I am hopeless at reading signals and I’m not sure if his interest is anything more than occasional companionship. Help!
Some people (OK, mainly GLE friends) clearly hold the expectation that if the man in the equation (yep, assumption of heterosexuality klaxon) must be the one to initiate negotiations, as it were, and declare their interest, thus if he's not made it obvious, forget it. As both a feminist and (perhaps more importantly) a pragmatist (they haven't met this lad! He’s as unassertive as they come) feel is probably rather unrealistic "in this day and age". Though for me, who naturally keeps her feelings closer than most, it would be handy.
[/delurking]
Posted by Sola gratia (# 14065) on
:
On a less me-centric note, I was wondering if anyone else has noticed (amongst Christians, YMMV, of course) this tendency for date avoidance amongst people these days?
I wonder if it is because my generation (I am mid-twenties) are scared to even go on Dates/Ask People Out as that seems big and scary and official, so we just sort of dance around having very ambiguous non-committal friend-dates. By which I mean we oh-so-casually start seeing each other a lot socially but never venturing to admit that the thought of romantic interest in one another might have even crossed our minds...and end up dancing round the subject indefinitely. I feel this happens quite a bit among my friends, a sort of pre-dating almost. I wonder if we feel so embarrassed about admitting interest in each other and the usual raised eyebrows of the Nudge-nudge brigade in church should we be any less circumspect.
Does that strike a chord with anyone?
A for all my single siblings (and those who wish they were?). Stay strong.
SG
Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on
:
I have no dog in this particular fight - being married for 38 years now - but I just wanted to say that people do not necessarily find their soulmates when or where they expect to. My best friend at school - who I am sure had completely given up on the idea of Romance/Love/Marriage met and married someone in her/their forties, and is to all appearances blissfully happy. A young friend, painfully shy in his teens, recently married a lady he met over the internet. The Intrepid Miss S is marrying a childhood friend next year - they had known each other about 18 years, and had at least two goes at being a couple, before they both reached a level of maturity where they were able to make that commitment.
I know none of this is directly helpful - I'm just saying it's never too late (although of course for females it can very easily be too late for children). So don't despair, and don't rule out places like this even!
The Matchmaking Mrs. S
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sola gratia:
On a less me-centric note, I was wondering if anyone else has noticed (amongst Christians, YMMV, of course) this tendency for date avoidance amongst people these days?
Dunno about "these days" because I'm not in the loop really, but the cultural norm round where I live, going back to the 1970s & 80s, was that "dates" (not a word we'd have been likely to use) were something that you did with whoever you were in a sexual relationship with. They were not the way the relationship started. People got to know each other in group situations, not one-to-one "dates".
As for Christians behaving differently from others, I have no idea. If any courtship goes on in our church its probably in a language I don't speak.
[ 23. November 2012, 15:28: Message edited by: ken ]
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
...People got to know each other in group situations, not one-to-one "dates".
As for Christians behaving differently from others, I have no idea. If any courtship goes on in our church its probably in a language I don't speak.
That there is my, well I hesitate to say problem. I don't date, I meet men in group situations. That is my preference, but as a consequence I have a number of male friends (I'm not complaining btw, I'm blessed in my friends), but no partner.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Sola gratia: By which I mean we oh-so-casually start seeing each other a lot socially but never venturing to admit that the thought of romantic interest in one another might have even crossed our minds...and end up dancing round the subject indefinitely.
But... this dance could be fun too!
I mean, giving small hints, teasing eachother, circling around eachother like boxers... isn't this part of the fun?
I'm sorry, but when I'm reading some of the posts on this thread, sometimes it makes me want to shout: don't over-think it too much. Have fun! Nobody will want to do this dance with you if you don't have fun doing it.
Maybe this guy is gay. So what? You'll find out soon enough. And if you do, you can always laugh it off with him saying: "Why are all the good men gay?" I haven't met one gay guy who wouldn't appreciate receiving this line from a woman.
(I'm sorry if this isn't very All Saintish, but this is how I feel.)
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm sorry, but when I'm reading some of the posts on this thread, sometimes it makes me want to shout: don't over-think it too much. Have fun! Nobody will want to do this dance with you if you don't have fun doing it.
I know what you mean. In my case it's just the lack of single blokes that I know. That said the idea of it becoming serious quickly is not on my radar. So I guess i'm just saying I agree with you, don't over think it all to much.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I mean, giving small hints, teasing eachother, circling around eachother like boxers... isn't this part of the fun?
No. Its horrible and scary and unsettling and stressful and puts you under a lot of pressure!
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Sola gratia - I once thought a vendor that acted very campy over the phone was totally gay. He kept singing that "Let me be your Hero" song over the phone yo me. He got insulted when I laughed. He stopped talking to me after letting me know he was "seriously" singing that to me. I confronted his gayness factor... nope he was not gay. I enjoyed his friendship and might have been interested had he lived close by and shared my faith.
My point is that you don't know until he tells you. Try to bring up the subject - ask him. I like people being comfortable around me as friends and I might inquirer of a
male friend this very thing just to be a good sage friend plus I am damn host.
Anytime somebody spends a considerable amount of time with you it is likely there are some feelings there.
[Edited. Out one misspelled word.. there may be more..typing this on a kindle fire. ]
[ 24. November 2012, 02:45: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Damn nosy
Not host arghhh
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sola gratia:
On a less me-centric note, I was wondering if anyone else has noticed (amongst Christians, YMMV, of course) this tendency for date avoidance amongst people these days?
I wonder if it is because my generation (I am mid-twenties) are scared to even go on Dates/Ask People Out as that seems big and scary and official, so we just sort of dance around having very ambiguous non-committal friend-dates. By which I mean we oh-so-casually start seeing each other a lot socially but never venturing to admit that the thought of romantic interest in one another might have even crossed our minds...and end up dancing round the subject indefinitely. I feel this happens quite a bit among my friends, a sort of pre-dating almost. I wonder if we feel so embarrassed about admitting interest in each other and the usual raised eyebrows of the Nudge-nudge brigade in church should we be any less circumspect.
Does that strike a chord with anyone?
A for all my single siblings (and those who wish they were?). Stay strong.
SG
I have this (I am also mid-twenties) but put it down to anxiety...
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sola gratia:
He is lovely and kind and very, very funny, and though I hadn’t thought about it at all while we were housemates, I think I probably would be interested in seeing him in a more serious capacity were he also interested. But I am hopeless at reading signals and I’m not sure if his interest is anything more than occasional companionship. Help!
I'd try and pick a fairly light moment when there's time to talk more if you need to and say something like, "Can I ask you something? I'm hopeless at reading signals and I'm just a bit unsure of expectations in our relationship. I really like you and our times together but I don't know if you're wanting anything more than companionship?"
Nen - longterm married but enjoying this thread.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
Depends also if you go in for hugs, as I think they often reveal something. I guess not always though; you might have a friendly hug, and not really know if there is anything more or not. My memory is that if I was interested in a woman, the hug was different! But I agree that if people are timid or shy, this can be hidden.
As others have said, mention it directly. Why not? OK, it's embarrassing, but there are worse things than embarrassment.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I reckon you'll get to a point where you know it's time to bring it up. And, if you're anything like me, you'll wait a few more times before you do.
And that's okay--however you play it out, it's okay.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
But... this dance could be fun too!
I mean, giving small hints, teasing eachother, circling around eachother like boxers... isn't this part of the fun?
I'm sorry, but when I'm reading some of the posts on this thread, sometimes it makes me want to shout: don't over-think it too much. Have fun! Nobody will want to do this dance with you if you don't have fun doing it.
Part of my post above was certainly meant to be thinking about the fun - it's fun to discuss "is there more to this?" with friends. And I wanted to be a bit more cheerful than the crying mess I was in my immediately previous post. Perhaps I'm over-thinking but, on the positive side, I don't over-think so much when I'm actually in the vicinity of the person I'm interested in.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
If it is causing you this level of distress and disturbance, I would seriously suggest considering some form of therapy. It maybe that you have had some experiences with relationships that have left you with profound anxieties that you may need help to overcome.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Does anyone go into relationships without anxieties, though? I've been reflecting a lot about this as I dip little toe back into shark-infested dating waters.
I know that I have a higher level of wariness than most, and I know where it came from (mentally ill father, followed by first major relationship with, whoops, mentally ill man), and I know, for the most part, what to do about it (including therapy, which I'm in and have gained much from). What I honestly don't know is what a normal amount of anxiety and wariness would be--I mean, do folks without my baggage honestly look at connecting with another person in this way and think wholly positive, cheerful, innocuous thoughts? That can't be right. Do they get a little nervous, but know that they can handle it? That seems more plausible.
I dunno. Honestly, I spent so much of my last foray into this so wrapped up in the need to bend myself around another person's fears and issues that I sort of forgot that, oh shiiiit, there are also fears and anxieties and issues on my end.
How do other folks navigate it?
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Nenya: I'd try and pick a fairly light moment when there's time to talk more if you need to and say something like, "Can I ask you something? I'm hopeless at reading signals and I'm just a bit unsure of expectations in our relationship. I really like you and our times together but I don't know if you're wanting anything more than companionship?"
Do you mind if I try an alternative take on this?
If I were Sola gratia, what I'd do is something like this. I'd try to get into a relaxed conversation with my friend (like the ones you're already having). During this conversation, I'd try to steer it gently into a little more personal territory. Then when the mood is right, I would ask with a slightly mischievous smile: "So, what kind of women do you fall for?"
(Of course, there's always a possibility that at this point he will answer "Well, actually I fall for men." If this happens, you just give him the "Why are all the good guys gay?" line, and then you laugh it off together. No harm done.)
Now, if he isn't gay and if he has more than two braincells (you wouldn't be interested in him anyway if he hasn't), he'll answer your question, and then he'll give the same question back to you ("And what about you, Sola gratia?"). Answer this question seriously, without giving too obvious hints.
Now, after you've given your answer, you stay silent. You look half-down with a slightly embarrased smile, like you want to say something to him, but you really don't dare.
The important thing is, not to break this silence, even if it becomes awkward. In fact, you want it to become a bit awkward. Do what you have to (count inwardly if needed) but don't break the silence. He must be the one who breaks the silence.
If he doesn't get the hint after that, he really isn't worth your while
quote:
infinite_monkey: Does anyone go into relationships without anxieties, though? (...) How do other folks navigate it?
I don't know how to get rid of them, I'm no psychotherapist. But I do think that all of these questions "What if (s)he reject me? What if (s)he's (not) gay? What if (s)he isn't the right kind of Christian? What if my emotional baggage is too much to enter a relationship? What if it turns out that I really don't want a long-term relationship with him/her after all?" aren't helpful at that moment. I can promise you that if you're able to leave them aside for a bit and just have fun, you'll become at least 5 times as attractive.
In fact, my answer to all of these questions would be: "So what?" Leave them behind, you can deal with them later.
-LeRoc (Happily married after having been single for a long time. And I think a big part of changing this condition was learning to have fun with it.)
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If it is causing you this level of distress and disturbance, I would seriously suggest considering some form of therapy.
What? But what's being described is entirely normal. Cool, calm, and collected, by some people's standards.
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
Does anyone go into relationships without anxieties, though?
No, Unless maybe such things as complete sociopaths do in fact exist. I suppose they might.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Now, if he isn't gay and if he has more than two braincells (you wouldn't be interested in him anyway if he hasn't), he'll answer your question, and then he'll give the same question back to you ("And what about you, Sola gratia?"). Answer this question seriously, without giving too obvious hints.
Now, after you've given your answer, you stay silent. You look half-down with a slightly embarrased smile, like you want to say something to him, but you really don't dare.
The important thing is, not to break this silence, even if it becomes awkward. In fact, you want it to become a bit awkward. Do what you have to (count inwardly if needed) but don't break the silence. He must be the one who breaks the silence.
If he doesn't get the hint after that, he really isn't worth your while
You've probably just ruled out at least three-quarters of the men in the world!
Also it sounds like something out of a pre-Victorian novel.
Posted by ButchCassidy (# 11147) on
:
Agree with LeRoc. But I do think these things are learnt by experience and believing in the lessons of that experience. In my teens was quite shy around girls, and no amount of 'just be relaxed about it' or 'don't be anxious, there's always more fish in the sea if this doesn't work out' or 'don't be too picky at the beginning since you might bond later' would have persuaded me, even though these are infact all very true. So my first relationships were quite awkwardly began (I remember drunkenly getting down on one knee to ask a girl out, classy) and very anxious and serious. After a while of letting yourself fail, and still being alive afterwards, you start to actually believe in the slogans.
Re Sola Gratia's situation, LeRoc is describing how I personally would ferret out whether someone is gay (or, more usually, in a relationship) if the tone is not appropriate for a cheekily direct question (which often gets you brownie points if a guy). The exact words can vary. Personally, I tend to go more casually by getting the concept of relationships into the conversation, e.g. you could say 'oh that sounds like my ex', then work it round to a discussion of relationship history. Normally their tone will clearly imply their orientation/status. If you're bringing up those subjects, and making clear that you're single (and by implication, interested, since you wouldn't bring relationships up otherwise), they have the room to bring up their current relationships/ change the subject if they're not interested. If they're happy to discuss relationships, and smiling etc throughout, you've both got a green light (and effectively prompt him to make a move if he's shy).
Just my initial thoughts, though, and it is difficult to put into mechanistic terms what is meant to be a fun organic process, even though for many of us it isnt.
[ 26. November 2012, 17:43: Message edited by: ButchCassidy ]
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The important thing is, not to break this silence, even if it becomes awkward. In fact, you want it to become a bit awkward. Do what you have to (count inwardly if needed) but don't break the silence. He must be the one who breaks the silence.
But doesn't that leave the poor bloke stuck to know what to say? I am not sure how helpful it would be to make things more awkward, especially as the guy is unassertive. If I want to know where I stand with someone I tend to ask.
Nen - too outspoken for her own good.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The important thing is, not to break this silence, even if it becomes awkward. In fact, you want it to become a bit awkward. Do what you have to (count inwardly if needed) but don't break the silence. He must be the one who breaks the silence.
But doesn't that leave the poor bloke stuck to know what to say? I am not sure how helpful it would be to make things more awkward, especially as the guy is unassertive. If I want to know where I stand with someone I tend to ask.
Nen - too outspoken for her own good.
Yes, it does leave him there, because as ken suggested men do not get hints. None of them, not even great big hints with "Oi! I'm interested!" on them in Cecil B. deMille style film titles. If you're really lucky, you might get a reply of "Interested in what?"
Posted by Sola gratia (# 14065) on
:
Thanks all for your advice.
I acknowledge that I need to be a big girl and get up the courage to do *something* or I can have no reason to mope. I was just wavering as I didn't trust my judgement of his behaviour nor my negligible experience in the field of luv 'n' romance.
I think I shall try and arrange to see him this weekend and at least try and find out which way he swings. Nenya, you are of course right, there's no better way than to ask him. I was of course hoping to remain a coward, but so be it!
For the record, I can't say I really have any concrete reason to think that he is gay, but I never like to assume, and I didn't really like to ask either. I tend to avoid asking personal questions unless/until I sense people are comfortable volunteering it, but I suppose I am a fairly private person (and a coward), and as Duchess says, it is a useful thing to know as a friend so as to be a better friend.
I don't know how much I'd want to agree with a blanket statement that men are bad at reading signals, certainly not that they are always worse than women. I think I am quite dense myself in that department, and I am a woman. Mind you, a male friend of mine who I had always thought reasonably perceptive until then, did tell the story at his wedding last year of how his now wife had been forced to spell it out to him in order for them to finally get together. Apparently he hadn't got the hint after weeks of cosy movies, and she was forced to sit him down and use the immortal line: "On a scale of one to very, how obvious is it that I like you?!" ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I've often wondered if I should take a leaf out of her book.
SG
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Well, after a very awkward date on Sunday I am concluding that online dating is not for me. Sigh.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Ah nuts! It genuinely seems like many awkward dates are the lot of those who try online dating. It's been my experience that I find them less stressful/easier to tolerate as I go on more of the damn things, though--and that it's fundamentally good practice. Or, possibly, exposure therapy. As in, the person who's fundamentally terrified of giant hairy spiders needs to be in the same room as giant hairy spiders many many times before she stops freaking out a bit and/or running away.
I had one last night: didn't "spark" at all with the guy, but found myself nevertheless sort of enjoying the conversation--recognizing, wow, this is a chance to hear the perspective of a person I'd never meet otherwise, and he's interesting enough, and there are dozens more folks out there. I'm not keen to meet that many more of them, but I do recognize that I'm sweating the process a bit less, the more I go through it.
Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I mean, giving small hints, teasing eachother, circling around eachother like boxers... isn't this part of the fun?
No. Its horrible and scary and unsettling and stressful and puts you under a lot of pressure!
That's exactly the way i feel also. Some people enjoy the "dating game" and more power to them -- enjoy! But some simply by nature definitely do not enjoy that particular game. It does not work for them. I am one of the latter.
[ 27. November 2012, 05:02: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
Despite being a socially unsuccessful gay man I am fond of the advice of Miss Manners on this subject.
The problem is that human nature is such that there is nothing so unattractive as someone pursuing you with passion. So how do people meet?
The solution is flirting. One party makes a pleasant but ambiguous action. If the other person is interested, they do not leap into unattractive pursuit, but respond with their own ambiguous gesture, which narrows the field. This continues until you are close enough that asking to go out is not a huge leap of passion.
"Properly done, no-one is exactly sure what is happening..."
The two of you may be doing this already.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
ken: Also it sounds like something out of a pre-Victorian novel.
In this case, she would also demurely suggest that she already had her bridal chest ready, while at the same time keeping an eye out to see whether their chapperone was returning already
quote:
Nenya: But doesn't that leave the poor bloke stuck to know what to say? I am not sure how helpful it would be to make things more awkward
But don't you think "Can I ask you something? I'm hopeless at reading signals and I'm just a bit unsure of expectations in our relationship. I really like you and our times together but I don't know if you're wanting anything more than companionship?" is awkward too?
Looking at it again, I'm not sure if 'awkward' is the right word to describe what I was getting at. It's more about building some kind of playful tension between people.
quote:
ButchCassidy: (I remember drunkenly getting down on one knee to ask a girl out, classy)
Let me guess what her reaction was
Posted by ButchCassidy (# 11147) on
:
Bizarrely she liked it sometimes the drunken brazen thing does work.
Agree with people saying should do it in a roundabout flirty way: asking straightout does seem rather formal, and I can see why people do get anxious if they approach it in this mini-proposal method.
But its clear from this thread there are different comfort zones in dating which will affect how one approaches making a move. Some people want to go straight into a relatively serious relationship with someone they are serious about, others slide into things with someone they like the look of and have a good time with. Personally, used to favour the former, now, after some of infinite_monkey's exposure therapy, greatly enjoy the latter, but guess will use the former for 'the One'.
[ 27. November 2012, 10:12: Message edited by: ButchCassidy ]
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
But don't you think "Can I ask you something? I'm hopeless at reading signals and I'm just a bit unsure of expectations in our relationship. I really like you and our times together but I don't know if you're wanting anything more than companionship?" is awkward too?
I guess it depends on the kind of person you are. I'd rather have a straight question to answer than a silence I don't know how to fill but maybe that's just me.
Sola gratia, are you still in touch with the acquaintance/best friend? Couldn't you ask her if he's gay?
Nen - running out of ideas.
[ 27. November 2012, 16:46: Message edited by: Nenya ]
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Despite being a socially unsuccessful gay man I am fond of the advice of Miss Manners on this subject.
The problem is that human nature is such that there is nothing so unattractive as someone pursuing you with passion. So how do people meet?
The solution is flirting. One party makes a pleasant but ambiguous action. If the other person is interested, they do not leap into unattractive pursuit, but respond with their own ambiguous gesture, which narrows the field. This continues until you are close enough that asking to go out is not a huge leap of passion.
"Properly done, no-one is exactly sure what is happening..."
The two of you may be doing this already.
For those of you who might like a few ideas about flirting here are some from a while back.
nb. some of these might not be entirely serious. They were posted in Heaven rather than All Saints, and you know what the fluffy bunnies are like.
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm sorry, but when I'm reading some of the posts on this thread, sometimes it makes me want to shout: don't over-think it too much.
I kind of agree with the above, but then this was followed by:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Do you mind if I try an alternative take on this?
If I were Sola gratia, what I'd do is something like this. I'd try to get into a relaxed conversation with my friend and then some contrived and convoluted way of bringing a conversation to a specific point, involving fake embarrassed smiles and well-timed periods of silence designed to manoeuvre the guy down some path or other.
I would have thought this, if anything, is overthinking the situation.
I am all in favour of having the conversation though, just not sure how pre-meditated it could/should be. It can be extremely, painfully embarrassing to broach the subject of whether or not the other person is interested in you the same way, but do the potential benefits of a positive response outweigh the potential drawbacks of a negative one?
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
I would have thought this, if anything, is overthinking the situation.
"Overthinking" sounds like an odd concept to me. Like "overtired" which is supposed to mean "too tired to sleep" but actually means "I want my kid to go to sleep so they bloody well will whether they are tired or not". What have we to guide our actions but thinking?
quote:
... do the potential benefits of a positive response outweigh the potential drawbacks of a negative one?
That depends on your Bayesian priors
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on
:
Not sure if this will had helpful perspective to the whole "reading signals" and flirting thing, but what the heck.
I've always, by and large, found it easier to be friends with women rather than blokes. No exclusively, but I'm crap at the sport stuff, and fine with the feelings stuff. I'm also a fairly tactile fella, and a disgraceful conversational flirt by natural inclination, particularly if encouraged.
As a result I've usually found myself with lots of female friends, and pre-marriage potentially interested in some of them.
However, back when "does she/doesn't she feel that way?" was an issue, I still had hideous doubts. I had virtually no self-confidence when it came to my own attractiveness, couldn't bring myself to just chance it for a casual thing, and didn't want to trash good friendships by going for a snog, or even a hand-hold that might be unwelcome.
And because a lot of my friendships were naturally flirty, that made it worse. I had no way to work out whether I was getting a signal, or just engaging in badinage. So it was a perfect storm of getting so far, then drowning in uncertainty. So flirting can be a bit of a double-edged sword.
I think that if I found myself in that position again now, somewhat (ahem) older I'd probably just screw up my courage and be direct. It would take a few weeks/months of sleepless nights and angst, but I have no idea how the hell else to do it, and playing games can hide as much as it reveals.
FWIW, despite being very easy, and welcome, in the company of women, I only chalked up three proper relationships: one in my mid-teens, classic "Will you go out with me?" (++angst); one in late teens when someone I thought held me beneath their notice pulled a surprise declaration on me; one with a good friend in my early twenties, fuelled by alcohol and poor judgement.
That last one? That's the one that's still going umpty years of marriage later. Go figure.
for anyone having to navigate the whole flipping minefield
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
... do the potential benefits of a positive response outweigh the potential drawbacks of a negative one?
That depends on your Bayesian priors
Is that from the Tim Minchin School of Dating?
[ 28. November 2012, 22:19: Message edited by: Hazey*Jane ]
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Jonah the Whale: I would have thought this, if anything, is overthinking the situation.
Don't worry, I was very much playing by ear when I wrote this
Of course, the direct approach might work sometimes. Undoubtedly some Shipmates have used the direct approach and have been married for forty years now. The best of luck to them.
But I have tried the direct approach when I was younger, and in my experience it inevitably lead to the "I really like you, but I see you more as a friend" speech. Over and over again. And I doubt very much that I'm the only one who's been at the receiving end of this.
I really do think that the direct approach (waiting for the 'right' moment, and then asking her[*] out directly, or asking her to clarify her feelings about you, or making some kind of love declaration to her...) has some very obvious disadvantages.
I don't know, I guess it's because it creates a tension that suddenly gets very high. And it's not a playful tension, it's something quite serious. In fact, it creates a tense, serious moment with high emotional stakes. Often, it can feel like an 'all or nothing' situation, and the 'R-word' is always very prominent in the middle of it. (Rejection. Duh.)
Also, it actually puts a lot of pressure on the other person: you practically force her to show her hand, even if it's quite possible that she hasn't made her mind up about it yet. I'm not even sure if this is any less 'manipulative'?
So, that's why I prefer the dance. I hate putting things like this in schedules, but it would be something like this:- Move the conversation to something more 'suggestive'.
- Build up a playful tension between you and the other person.
- Go with the flow, and have fun with it.
There will always be tension in situations like this, but in this case the tension is gradual, fun and much more natural. You gave both of you a chance to back off gracefully if needs be, and I think this can greatly reduce the anxiety on both sides. And most importantly: even if it doesn't work out, you learned something, and you had fun.
In my (admittedly clumsily formulated) example, I used silence as a way of building up playful tension. As in a dance: "I've been taking the lead for a while, now I'm going to hang back a bit and see what you do. Then we'll build on that." This can work if you do it right. But there definitely are other ways, it very much depends on the person.
If I would describe two people doing a tango on a medium like this one, it would probably feel contrived and fake. "Nobody would ever move like that in real life!" But ultimately, tango isn't about the moves. It's about two dancers creating a tension between them.
[*]I've given up on writing 'him/her' all the time. I'm going to write from the point of view of a man who's interested in a woman. Feel free to change the gender of either person as you please. Also, 'you' means a general you. End of disclaimer
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Often, it can feel like an 'all or nothing' situation, and the 'R-word' is always very prominent in the middle of it. (Rejection. Duh.)
No, the true R-word is "Respect". If she says "I really respect you", or even worse "I'll always respect you" you know you are on to a loser.
In the scale of rejection lines it comes one step behind "There's too much going on in my life right now for me to be thinking about relationships" (which usually means she's just started going out with someone else but doesn't want to tell you), but somewhere in front of "I don't want to spoil our friendship" or "This isn't about you, its about me, I'm not really right for you, we'd never be happy together, don't worry, I know there is Someone Really Special Out There for you, just wait till the right one comes along"
Basically they are pretend polite ways to say "I don't fancy you and wouldn't go out with you if you were the last man on the planet, and as for sex I wouldn't touch you with a bargepole if I was blindfolded" (Are there secret training schools where women are taught to say these things?)
They never work of course. Loads of men are too stupid to realise they are being turned down, and only try harder, whch never helps. And those who do understand will be just as hurt as if you put it bluntly. In fact often more hurt. I can't even remember the names of some women who said "Sorry, I just don't fancy you". But those other lines can still rankle after decades.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
No, the true R-word is "Respect". If she says "I really respect you", or even worse "I'll always respect you" you know you are on to a loser.
Noooo. The Bible says a wife must respect her husband. It's a clear sign from God that you should get married.
Nen - matchmaker extraordinaire.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
I used the too much going on in my life once. I had just broken up with one guy for that reason. I was not going to hurt another by putting him through the same.
Jengie
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
No, the true R-word is "Respect". If she says "I really respect you", or even worse "I'll always respect you" you know you are on to a loser.
Noooo. The Bible says a wife must respect her husband. It's a clear sign from God that you should get married.
Respect before marriage is Bad and Wrong though...
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
(Are there secret training schools where women are taught to say these things?).
Yes. But I can't say any more, or they'll take me away and I'll have to make cupcakes for all eternity*.
*cupcakes all good in their place, but I prefer to vary my baked goods.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
I think one thing that bothers me is the gender segregation of friendships in my current Christian circles. I really would value a physically affectionate male friend without the need to be in a romantic relationship with him, but all the guys at CU are either in relationships or at the tentative start of one, and male-female hugs outside of romantic relationships are Not Done at my CU. I know this might sound oddly specific but I really miss male affection more than anything else. I miss my affectionate male friends
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
ken: I can't even remember the names of some women who said "Sorry, I just don't fancy you". But those other lines can still rankle after decades.
What I find interesting, is that in many cases like this, the guy tries a direct approach but he gets an indirect answer back.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I really would value a physically affectionate male friend without the need to be in a romantic relationship with him, but all the guys at CU are either in relationships or at the tentative start of one, and male-female hugs outside of romantic relationships are Not Done at my CU. I know this might sound oddly specific but I really miss male affection more than anything else. I miss my affectionate male friends
Unless they're gay, or they *really* doesn't fancy you, they are going to feel sexual about it. Unavoidable. Automatic. So if the men are taking the not lusting part seriously, they are going to be wary about physically affectionate relationships with young women.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I really would value a physically affectionate male friend without the need to be in a romantic relationship with him, but all the guys at CU are either in relationships or at the tentative start of one, and male-female hugs outside of romantic relationships are Not Done at my CU. I know this might sound oddly specific but I really miss male affection more than anything else. I miss my affectionate male friends
Unless they're gay, or they *really* doesn't fancy you, they are going to feel sexual about it. Unavoidable. Automatic. So if the men are taking the not lusting part seriously, they are going to be wary about physically affectionate relationships with young women.
Well I've had friendships like that in the past with men who (presumably) really don't fancy me. I clearly need more gay male friends But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on
:
quote:
But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.
Well I'm not a man, but I must break it to you Jade that for many (most?) people, being in a relationship with one person does not automatically stop one from fancying others. I would guess this applies even more to men than it does to women, so I guess Ken is right and these young men are holding back for a good reason. Doesn't help you much though I realise.
[ 30. November 2012, 17:21: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.
No. Really no. I reckon most men are probably sexually attracted to about half of the women they meet. Or youngish men anyway, it falls off a bit with age - though not that much. Its automatic, hard to control, and potentially very embarrassing.
And what Gracious Rebel said.
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on
:
What ken and Gracious Rebel said.
I'm very happily married, wouldn't stray in the slightest, and am confident that in a world where Mrs Snags didn't exist there wouldn't be a hope in hell of any kind of serious romantic relationship working with almost any of my female friends (from 17 - 60+). None of that, however, stops me finding the majority of them attractive.
Doesn't stop me hugging the ones that it's appropriate to hug either, mind. Although that is a smaller sub-set (closer in age, deeper friendship, everyone on same page) because I tend to assume once they're >10 years younger than me the idea of a hug would be more than a bit squicky anyway.
I'm also slightly freaked out at an anti-hugging CU. My (old) experience was that most such groups were a thinly veiled excuse to hug everyone as a kind of 'safe' contact. Although it was mostly the ladies that took the lead.
Posted by Sola gratia (# 14065) on
:
*sigh* Well, the lad in question came to mine last week, and I'm still cringing from the awkwardness. I felt super self-conscious having him round my house (I’m back with my family - thanks recession - whom I love dearly but probably didn't help the tension I felt) and I think he may have felt a little uncomfortable too. He is unfailingly polite, so wouldn't have dreamed of saying so (a trait which is currently a little difficult to deal with as it means I remain clueless about how he REALLY feels), although I had forgotten how bitchy his humour can be when he watches trashy TV...
Anyway, of course I chickened out of enquiring about him and relationships (sorry, I just couldn’t bring myself to do it), so it was an evening of awkward small talk or safe topics like books whilst we wandered around my very small town and then went home to mine watched telly with my teenage sister (Take Me Out, would you believe - a dating show!) before he got his train. Aaaargh.
Following a short post-match analysis on the phone with a good friend later, I suddenly realised the reason I was subconsciously thinking he might be gay was that he reminded me strongly of a friend I had several years ago at university with whom I hung around in a similarly ambiguous fashion for a number of months. In that situation, after a while it got weird and I had enough of the nudging and winking from all my friends as I had realised I just didn't feel that way about him, and I sensed he was hesitant too. This lad eventually came out to me, admitting he'd been slightly leading me on in the hope of getting a date with a gay male coursemate of mine he had his eye on. Charming. Whatever it is, I don't know if it is my imagination or an emergent gaydar, but this ex-housemate of mine is very reminiscent of him, including in the way he seems to act rather squeamishly about anything to do with sex. I just can’t help feeling as if he may be holding something back. Now admittedly he’s old-fashioned in many ways, but I’m not asking him to turn into Rhett Butler or anything. It’s not altogether encouraging, is it?
I really hope he’s not going down the same route. Selfish as this sounds (let me be clear, I do care about him and would be there for him if he were to do similar), it's disheartening when several of the guys you seem to end up getting close to are gay. (Am I missing a neon sign somewhere on my forehead?!)
Argh. Sorry, not got much to say apart from that, but just thought I'd update. Back to the drawing board then…
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.
No. Really no. I reckon most men are probably sexually attracted to about half of the women they meet. Or youngish men anyway, it falls off a bit with age - though not that much. Its automatic, hard to control, and potentially very embarrassing.
And what Gracious Rebel said.
Now I just want to know how to become unattractive to them :/
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.
No. Really no. I reckon most men are probably sexually attracted to about half of the women they meet. Or youngish men anyway, it falls off a bit with age - though not that much. Its automatic, hard to control, and potentially very embarrassing.
And what Gracious Rebel said.
Now I just want to know how to become unattractive to them :/
Why? What is it about that thought that makes you uncomfortable?
Finding someone sexually attractive doesn't equal lusting and leering over them. I'm not male (so maybe our male members can tell me if I'm guessing right here!) but I would imagine that it's more of an automatic response that is not held onto but passes through the mind. A bit like my reaction to seeing this , I'm not going to grab it and gobble it all up but I can't help thinking 'Mmmmmm!" It's more or less an automatic reaction! It makes me think of something I like. I'm not sure what is so bad about that as long as that is not the sum total of how someone sees another person. We are sexual beings, it is a normal part of being human even though it's expression varies hugely from person to person.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Now I just want to know how to become unattractive to them :/
Wait till you get to my age, my dear. You'll be grateful for the merest hint that anyone finds you vaguely attractive.
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
:
Seconded Nenya!
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on
:
Lucia, yes, more or less, although I'd be less restrained with chocolate cake than female friends
It's definitely not a feelthy lust thing; it's just that one tends to find female friends attractive, and in different circumstances you might well ponder whether to risk asking them out.
I've had quite long, late night, mildly inebriated chats with good friends (both genders) over this, and we came to the conclusion that it's just life, and in reality it's pretty hard to be friends with someone that you don't find attractive to some degree or another. Not slobbering, jaw-droppingly hot and irresistable, just attractive somewhere on a scale from mild, warm, rounded, balanced thoughts, through to "in another life, who knows ...".
It's far, far, far from having unwholesome or squick-making thoughts about every person you meet. So don't panic JC
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
... I would imagine that it's more of an automatic response that is not held onto but passes through the mind. A bit like my reaction to seeing this , I'm not going to grab it and gobble it all up but I can't help thinking 'Mmmmmm!"
Yep, that's it, it pretty accurately.
(Except that some of the organs the response passes through are not usually described as part of the mind, and the men concerned, if not already in some kind of relationship (and maybe even of they are but its not going well) are likely to very hungry, if not starving, which does make it harder not to think about the cake a lot)
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But in all seriousness, I would presume that the ones in relationships don't fancy me otherwise they wouldn't be in a relationship with other people.
No. Really no. I reckon most men are probably sexually attracted to about half of the women they meet. Or youngish men anyway, it falls off a bit with age - though not that much. Its automatic, hard to control, and potentially very embarrassing.
And what Gracious Rebel said.
Now I just want to know how to become unattractive to them :/
Why? What is it about that thought that makes you uncomfortable?
Finding someone sexually attractive doesn't equal lusting and leering over them. I'm not male (so maybe our male members can tell me if I'm guessing right here!) but I would imagine that it's more of an automatic response that is not held onto but passes through the mind. A bit like my reaction to seeing this , I'm not going to grab it and gobble it all up but I can't help thinking 'Mmmmmm!" It's more or less an automatic reaction! It makes me think of something I like. I'm not sure what is so bad about that as long as that is not the sum total of how someone sees another person. We are sexual beings, it is a normal part of being human even though it's expression varies hugely from person to person.
I just don't *get* reactions like that I'm afraid, not to anything really. I just feel very uncomfortable with someone who I'm not attracted to finding me attractive, it makes me feel like I have less control over my body and who gets to feel things about it. I want to be able to give permission first.
[coding]
[ 05. December 2012, 15:22: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
I haven't had the problem of gay fiends who I wish weren't - what I've had has been male friends with whom I have spent time in cheerful conversation, which I didn't dominate, who I've somehow manoeuvred into brother/sister mode. One of whom was definitely attracted properly at one time. Very frustrating.
Jade, I don't know what you look like, but I did manage once to give the impression that I was not unattractive but actually repulsive with a bunch of lads hanging around a beach shelter at night. They'd whistled and commented when I passed them in one direction, and I dreaded passing them on the way back (I thought there was an alternative, but there wasn't). So I shambled past expressionless, acting vacant with my facial muscles slack - not quite dribbling! This time the comments were very nastily dismissive. Wouldn't work with good bones, though. Nor for any long period of time. What worked with men around longer who I didn't feel happy with was the intellectual put down. No matter what their favourite subject, there was always one little nugget of information I had that they didn't. Doesn't matter how much they like ogling the body parts if you do that, they go off in a huff. Sad really. I used to half hope my assessment would be wrong and they'd call my bluff, but it never happened.
There is no connection between these accounts.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
Jade, do you ask permission of someone before you find them attractive? I know it can be a bit awkward when someone you're not interested in fancies you, but I don't think it's really a loss of control of your body. After all, it doesn't go anywhere if you're not interested as well! I'd go with feeling flattered, but not being encouraging.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
Then come kiss me, sweet and twenty,
Youth’s a stuff will not endure
It's nothing personal: it's an evolutionary thing - at the optimal mating age, provided the potential partner has a pulse, it's attractive. So priketh hem Nature in hir corages. It will pass soon enough.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
What worked with men around longer who I didn't feel happy with was the intellectual put down. No matter what their favourite subject, there was always one little nugget of information I had that they didn't. Doesn't matter how much they like ogling the body parts if you do that, they go off in a huff. Sad really.
Do guys really consider it a put down if you happen to express a greater knowledge of a topic than they have? I'm starting to suspect this is true, but it depresses me. If I'm talking to someone about something I'm interested in, and they know about it too, I think 'Great! We've got something to talk about it'. But there have been times when it's felt like I've 'overstepped the mark' by happening to get involved in a conversation rather than merely receptively nodding in awe while someone lectures or mansplains something to me. Certainly even if it doesn't repel guys it seems to put you firmly in 'friend' territory.
If this is the case then it's all quite depressing cos (i) I want to be with someone I can have interesting conversations with (besides all the other stuff), and that kind of hinges on me being allowed to talk too and (ii) being an academic researcher with a nerdy interest in trivia, I happen to know a little bit about a lot of things. I don't ram my education or knowledge down people's throats, but I don't want to play dumb either.
I have a horrible feeling that similar principles apply to humour. For years I misguidedly thought that when guys said they like women with a sense of humour, they meant someone who made them laugh. It's only dawned on me more recently that for a lot of guys they mean 'someone who will laugh at my jokes'. Turns out if you match them pun for pun... you're consigned to the friend zone again.
For someone who has never considered their looks to be their strong point, it irks me to know that the two things I thought were my good qualities - my sense of humour and my intelligence - actually get me marked down, cos I don't apply them correctly to the ideal model (which is basically one up from 'be seen and not heard').
Stupid bloody 'rules'. What century is this?
[/rant]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I dunno--I kind of think that what people find attractive in the initial stages is indicative of what they'd like longer-term. So, if a person initially finds me less attractive because of my intelligence and desire to be part of a dialogue, not a rapt audience for a monologue, I'd say that means we'd be doomed long-term anyway. I know a good many men who genuinely find smart, graciously opinionated women very attractive indeed. Is that the default option? Probably not. But they're out there, and ultimately, if you yourself are a smart, graciously opinionated woman, that's your target market anyway.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
Jade, do you ask permission of someone before you find them attractive? I know it can be a bit awkward when someone you're not interested in fancies you, but I don't think it's really a loss of control of your body. After all, it doesn't go anywhere if you're not interested as well! I'd go with feeling flattered, but not being encouraging.
It's been a very long time since I found anyone attractive.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
You really think it works like that? If someone forbade you to have a particular type of feeling about them, you would simply stop having it?
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
I dunno--I kind of think that what people find attractive in the initial stages is indicative of what they'd like longer-term. So, if a person initially finds me less attractive because of my intelligence and desire to be part of a dialogue, not a rapt audience for a monologue, I'd say that means we'd be doomed long-term anyway. I know a good many men who genuinely find smart, graciously opinionated women very attractive indeed. Is that the default option? Probably not. But they're out there, and ultimately, if you yourself are a smart, graciously opinionated woman, that's your target market anyway.
I'm inclined to agree - I don't see any point in changing how I come across for the purposes of attracting someone, because if they don't like the real me at the start, then when will they? Interestingly, the only times in recent years that someone has displayed an interest in me in the real world (rather than from internet dating) have been in contexts where my work life has hardly got a mention in the initial 'getting to know you' stages. In one case, the guy subsequently discovered just how nerdy I am and was fine with it. In the other case, I think I've been asked out by the guy, but I have a feeling he might run scared once he gets to know me more. Oh well.
Now about these "men who genuinely find smart, graciously opinionated women very attractive indeed" - where can I find them? Or are they all married off by now?
Hazey
PS. Thank you for the phrase 'graciously opinionated'. I'd like to think that's what I am. I don't pick fights or debate just for the sake of it, honest!
[ 06. December 2012, 22:46: Message edited by: Hazey*Jane ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
You really think it works like that? If someone forbade you to have a particular type of feeling about them, you would simply stop having it?
I'd love to meet a person who could do that. Wait, maybe not. I think a person who could do that would scare me.
One of the things I've worked on, very heavily, through years and years of therapy, is accepting the validity of my own feelings. Realizing that feelings don't have to be rational or tidy or welcome or nice--they don't always play by the rules that we want them to. If they trouble us, we can try to alter them, but it's not always as simple as we'd like them to be.
The thing that's helped me do that is recognizing a key idea: you're fundamentally allowed to have whatever feeling you have. You are not fundamentally allowed to have any behavior.
I can't control whether people fancy me or don't, just as I can't, ultimately, fully master my own mechanisms for fancying others. But I can set boundaries for what I'll let people do or refrain from doing with whatever feelings they've got, and I need to be mindful of how I play my own feelings out, because my spoken words and enacted behaviors have impacts on others.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I just don't *get* reactions like that I'm afraid, not to anything really. I just feel very uncomfortable with someone who I'm not attracted to finding me attractive, it makes me feel like I have less control over my body and who gets to feel things about it. I want to be able to give permission first.
Not the way it works.
You will oft be chased by those with whom you wish to be chaste, and chaste with those you wish would chase; until chased is no more the case and chaste is all that occurs.
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on
:
quote:
I just don't *get* reactions like that I'm afraid, not to anything really. I just feel very uncomfortable with someone who I'm not attracted to finding me attractive, it makes me feel like I have less control over my body and who gets to feel things about it. I want to be able to give permission first.
It's possible that the word "attractive" is suffering from a shades of meaning issue here. In the majority of cases it's a very mild thing, not a "Phwoar" thing. And equally (from personal and anecdotal experience) it's not a purely physical thing. In fact, it's almost the opposite in friendship circles - people who wouldn't immediately tick the shallow physical boxes become increasingly attractive over time as you get to know them better.
I find my friends attractive; to some extent, it's why they're my friends, IYSWIM. It's a long way from there to harbouring impure thoughts about them
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Excellent, Snags, thank you for that.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
Now about these "men who genuinely find smart, graciously opinionated women very attractive indeed" - where can I find them? Or are they all married off by now?
And I keep wondering that about the women who meet that description—well, sometimes minus the "gracious" bit. I realize that part of my problems may just be because I find a bit of genuine, honest-to-God Bitch to be oh-so-attractive.
I sometimes wonder if all the right people are hiding from one another, writing novels, making art, going to concerts, taking long bike rides, working late at the office, and otherwise making a worthwhile life, then going home and sighing because another night has arrived without anyone to share it with. I know that if I go out for a beer or something, I may tell myself that it's "to meet someone," but really, I'll pay more attention to what I'm drinking and to the general vibe than anything else. Plus, everyone seems to be in a couple—and do you really want to approach the large groups of people who aren't? Naaaaa.
I doubt I'm the only person of any gender who does this.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
I sometimes wonder if all the right people are hiding from one another, writing novels, making art, going to concerts, taking long bike rides, working late at the office, and otherwise making a worthwhile life, then going home and sighing because another night has arrived without anyone to share it with.
Yeah, pretty much! I find it easier to meet people of all sorts now at 50 than I did 25 years ago, mainly because I have learned to put down the damn book and look around me a bit more. I've made more friends, had more fun, and gotten more dates that way.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
Do guys really consider it a put down if you happen to express a greater knowledge of a topic than they have?
No. Well not all. Not me anyway. Exact opposite. I get very strongly attracted to obviously clever women. That's not necessarily an entirely unworldly thing, there might be a bit of the intellectual showoff in it - I like hanging out with academics and writers and so on, maybe at least partly because if those clever folk seem to like me that makes me feel better about myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
I know that if I go out for a beer or something, I may tell myself that it's "to meet someone,"...
Hmmmm.....
I very often "go out for a beer or something". And its very easy to meet people and talk to them, that's why I do it. More fun than staying at home watching TV. But the people tend to be other men, rather than women. The easiest places to meet people - pubs, and well, pubs. And sports events (which I only started attending in middle age) And some kinds of community or political events and so on - tend to be dominated by men. And when there are women they are nearly always either with one of the other blokes or else so much younger than me it fails the xkcd test (which being a bloke I don't really mind of course, but I'm sure they would) Easy to meet someone, but not easy to meet Someone. Same's true of church, which at least has lots of attractive single women in it, but they are mostly thirty or more years younger than me.
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Then come kiss me, sweet and twenty,
Youth’s a stuff will not endure
It's nothing personal: it's an evolutionary thing - at the optimal mating age, provided the potential partner has a pulse, it's attractive. So priketh hem Nature in hir corages. It will pass soon enough.
Ah but the opportunity passes decades before the desire!
"Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages..."
... and to goon on lots of other things as well. Maybe I shoudl stop listening to all these Robert Burns songs...
[ 07. December 2012, 18:28: Message edited by: ken ]
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
:
Certainly they're not all married Hazey Jane. I have always liked intelligent talkative funny women but none of them has wanted to marry me, and I'm sure there are plenty more in my situation. At least I hope I'm sure.
What Ariston said made me think of how it seems that arranged marriage societies manage to find partners for a higher proportion than find your own systems. I am not sure why. But people I have met from that background have taken it for granted that they will be able to marry if they want to, and found the idea of involuntary singleness quite strange.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
Hazey Jane, one of the two men I have converted to "brother" told me that he considered the brain to be a major erogenous zone (as well as the usual). He can't be the only one. It wasn't that which did it - I suspect the menopause and associated loss of pheromones. (And other things nothing to do with me.)
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
Now about these "men who genuinely find smart, graciously opinionated women very attractive indeed" - where can I find them? Or are they all married off by now?
And I keep wondering that about the women who meet that description—well, sometimes minus the "gracious" bit. I realize that part of my problems may just be because I find a bit of genuine, honest-to-God Bitch to be oh-so-attractive.
I sometimes wonder if all the right people are hiding from one another, writing novels, making art, going to concerts, taking long bike rides, working late at the office, and otherwise making a worthwhile life, then going home and sighing because another night has arrived without anyone to share it with. I know that if I go out for a beer or something, I may tell myself that it's "to meet someone," but really, I'll pay more attention to what I'm drinking and to the general vibe than anything else. Plus, everyone seems to be in a couple—and do you really want to approach the large groups of people who aren't? Naaaaa.
I doubt I'm the only person of any gender who does this.
Haha - this sounds very familiar. Part of the problem is that I'm very comfortable with my own company but I feel like someone out with friends looks more attractive somehow.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
I realize that part of my problems may just be because I find a bit of genuine, honest-to-God Bitch to be oh-so-attractive.
heeeeey baby!
quote:
I sometimes wonder if all the right people are hiding from one another, writing novels, making art, going to concerts, taking long bike rides, working late at the office, and otherwise making a worthwhile life, then going home and sighing because another night has arrived without anyone to share it with.
[...]
I doubt I'm the only person of any gender who does this.
definitely not the only one.
And I think this is really true. The attention I get tends to be from people who are very unsuited to me. They are the people who don't have other pursuits or interests to occupy them, and who are quite comfortable playing the flirt game because that's what they do. They turn on the charm because I'm cute and gregarious as a motherfucker, but when it comes to conversation, i can intellectually wipe the floor with them. This leads to them running for the hills, or feeling more challenged. (*gruntgrunt* must put smart chick in her place! Where me club?!?*grunt*)
The men I meet who I think are a good fit though- so far anyway, they seem universally interested in chasing women half their age and/or IQ. I've had friends tell me this is because they don't want to be with smarter/stronger women, they want to be the "smart" one. It can be frustrating. I'm never going to play nice or ignorant for a man, though. I'd rather be single.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
SoF singles' board?
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
I'm still trying to work out if last night someone from church, was indicating that I can't be a grown up because I'm single, or was trying to pair me up with someone! If I work it out i might let you know!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Last night I dreamt about the guy I had a couple of dates with - in real life he did the 'let's be friends' thing and we really weren't a match anyway, but in the dream we were and ended up together. Dream was nice while it happened but woke up feeling strangely upset - lately I've been feeling like celibacy, even if only short-term, is for me but then when waking up I felt like I wanted what I dreamt about so much. Subconscious, you are unhelpful.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Subconcious is honest.
I can hear you, Jade-- personally I am in a place where I know I am way too much situational mess for anyone to handle, and I certainly wouldn't ask anyone to cope with it, but my libido keeps kicking at the cellar door where I've locked it. I guess I just have to just keep feeding it cookies and promise it wonderful things will happen when the time is right. Like it's a damn 14 year old virgin.
I am kind of in a place where I am counting some blessings, though--- I went through this period, a few months- year or so back when I was pretty much afraid of men-- well, more so the kind of codependent, reduced version of myself that I became when dealing with men.
The other day poking around on Facebook I looked over some of the banter on my page, and I realized-- I have collected, over the years, a nice little core group of male friends who really and truly seem to accept me the way I am. (note to female friends-- you are equally cherished! It just pertains directly to the dating thing.)
Still a mess, still not going to inflict that on anyone, but I think right now I want to just rest on those wonderful examples of male awesomeness, rest on the solidness of their affection for me, convince myself of that, and maybe somewhere down the line I will be ready to use that foundation of support to bolster me when I look for "something more."
So guys, for what it's worth, you might not like hearing "just friends" from a woman, but you never know when that phrase represents climbing Mount Everest to her.
And vice versa, I'm sure.
[ 08. December 2012, 22:18: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by rufiki (# 11165) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And some kinds of community or political events and so on - tend to be dominated by men. And when there are women they are nearly always either with one of the other blokes or else so much younger than me it fails the xkcd test (which being a bloke I don't really mind of course, but I'm sure they would) Easy to meet someone, but not easy to meet Someone. Same's true of church, which at least has lots of attractive single women in it, but they are mostly thirty or more years younger than me.
I know someone who met her second husband (in her 40's) at Salsa class. I understand all kinds of dance groups have a dearth of men. Of course you'd need to have some enthusiasm for the actual dancing too...
Rufiki (who took up an exciting male-dominated hobby last year looking for community and found a little more)
[ 09. December 2012, 08:08: Message edited by: rufiki ]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Last night's dream reminded me that it's not hugs with men I miss, it's hugs with A Man in particular. We were friends when I was at uni in Chichester but obviously Northampton is a while away from there! I fell for him pretty quickly but he had just come out of a long-term relationship which ended badly so I didn't make a move because he clearly needed some time to be single. He's still single (this is about two years ago now). I've been stuck at home all day thanks to a horrid cold so have unfortunately had time to think about it
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
Jade, is there any possibility that something may happen despite the distance, or is that door definitely closed?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Oh distance is the only thing really in the way, apart from him being busy (he works with asylum seekers and also studies for his postgraduate qualification in counselling part time). There's certainly nothing to say that it wouldn't happen - I only never made a move because of his circumstances and not because he wasn't interested. But my natural caution along with not wanting to burden him with a relationship with me and not wanting to ruin a friendship is stopping me from saying anything - and I have no idea how to say anything in the first place.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Can you arrange a visit, you to him or he to you?
So, I was at my friend's party last night, and this guy was there who I'd met at a dinner party and then had texted and he never got back to me. I'd wondered if he ever got the text, and so was interested to see him again to see if the tiny spark I thought might be there was in evidence again.
Well, not a flicker. No recognition, and he talked to the elderly neighbours all evening. I mentioned this to S, my other buddy who was there at the dinner. "I think he liked the other girl..." says S. So now I totally doubt myself.
I was disappointed for about 3 minutes at the party. Then the guy laughed. He has a really annoying laugh. I don't think it would work out being with someone like that. Can you imagine after ten years or so? I'd end up turning to him and saying: "If you ever laugh again I will surely kill you."
I kid on that I've got some amazingly effective boy-repellant, but really, it's the depression and the medication that screw things up for me. I can't imagine inflicting myself on anyone, and when there is a spark I can't believe it's real.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
rufiki, even if I thought dancing was more fun than watching paint dry, I'm fat, arthritic, asthmatic, clumsy, and I smoke. So no.
jade, tell him what you told us.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I kid on that I've got some amazingly effective boy-repellant, but really, it's the depression and the medication that screw things up for me. I can't imagine inflicting myself on anyone, and when there is a spark I can't believe it's real.
This is a great shame. I'm not a boy, but from your Ship posts I've always gained the impression that you are a wonderful, sensitive, talented, kind person, who also has difficulties with depression. If only you could see yourself that way.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
rufiki, even if I thought dancing was more fun than watching paint dry, I'm fat, arthritic, asthmatic, clumsy, and I smoke. So no.
jade, tell him what you told us.
I find contacting him quite difficult - have been trying to arrange a catch-up for a while but he is so busy with his job (which in fairness has quite unsociable hours) that I just rarely get a response. I realise boys aren't the best at replying to things but....
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
Can you arrange a visit, you to him or he to you?
So, I was at my friend's party last night, and this guy was there who I'd met at a dinner party and then had texted and he never got back to me. I'd wondered if he ever got the text, and so was interested to see him again to see if the tiny spark I thought might be there was in evidence again.
Well, not a flicker. No recognition, and he talked to the elderly neighbours all evening. I mentioned this to S, my other buddy who was there at the dinner. "I think he liked the other girl..." says S. So now I totally doubt myself.
I was disappointed for about 3 minutes at the party. Then the guy laughed. He has a really annoying laugh. I don't think it would work out being with someone like that. Can you imagine after ten years or so? I'd end up turning to him and saying: "If you ever laugh again I will surely kill you."
I kid on that I've got some amazingly effective boy-repellant, but really, it's the depression and the medication that screw things up for me. I can't imagine inflicting myself on anyone, and when there is a spark I can't believe it's real.
Oh I have totally been there before, regarding the party situation! I am hopeless at reading signals of interest or anything like that - if I'm not somewhere on the autistic spectrum I do a great impersonation of someone who is. And yeah, depression and medication don't help me either, especially not when they make me gain so much weight
It's such a terrible feeling, not understand what you're doing wrong or what is it about you that leaves you single when all your other friends are getting paired up!
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Zoey, thank you. That means a lot.
I talk to a lovely spiritual adviser who asks me to try to see myslef as God sees me. That's what I need to work on!
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
:
I've always thought Mad Cat sounded great too, though I feel a bit sorry for the guy at the party ( a wonderful, sensitive, talented, kind person, who also has difficulties with laughing ? )
quote:
originally posted by Jade Constable
It's such a terrible feeling, not understand what you're doing wrong or what is it about you that leaves you single when all your other friends are getting paired up!
I remember how annoyed I was reading a few years ago about a guy who had just been convicted for being a serial killer, and according to the article he had children with 5 different mothers. Why I thought, have 5 women chosen to have a family with a serial killer but none has with me ?
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Not so much a laugh as a whinny.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Umm, as a PS, I don't generally have difficulties with laughing (or whinnying for that matter). It was more the consolation for the guy preferring to talk to the elderly neighbours than to your truly in the new frock with the righteous accessories and everything.
Note to self: recalibrate sarcasm filter for use online.
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
:
So it would have been Mad Cat and Crazy Horse ? I shouldn't worry about the filter, I was trying for a touch of levity in case agreeing with Zoey sounded too earnest.
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
:
oops sorry to double post but just realised the mistake. It is I who should learn a lesson for the internet to be more explicit in phrasing. I meant that he was the wonderful sensitive kind person who had difficulties with laughter, but I can see how it sounded like I meant you which would make it rather rude. Sorry.
[ 12. December 2012, 07:45: Message edited by: moonlitdoor ]
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
If you tend to get into repeated problematic patterns with relationships, I suggest this book is well worth using.
(P.S. Have yo uconsidered non-responding men may be anxious ?)
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If you tend to get into repeated problematic patterns with relationships
Does continual lack count as a repeated pattern?
Almost a philosphical question. Does a blank sheet of paper have a very simple pattern on it?
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
oops sorry to double post but just realised the mistake. It is I who should learn a lesson for the internet to be more explicit in phrasing. I meant that he was the wonderful sensitive kind person who had difficulties with laughter, but I can see how it sounded like I meant you which would make it rather rude. Sorry.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If you tend to get into repeated problematic patterns with relationships
Does continual lack count as a repeated pattern?
Almost a philosphical question. Does a blank sheet of paper have a very simple pattern on it?
Assuming you have social contact with women in some setting, and wish to find a woman with whom you can pursue an intimate relationship, it would seem likely there is a hiccup in the process by which you either select who to ask out; or move through the progression of stages of closeness in the relationship.
If you are not meeting any women socially, then the first thing you need to do is find some activity you can do regularly in which you will come into social contact with women regularly. This needs to be an activity where the women will be in your most likely age range - within 5 to 10 years of your own age - and likely to be unthreatened by you making casual conversation. (Being the only man in a Legs, Bums n Tums aerobics class will likely be seen as evidence you are gay or creepy.) Ideally, it should be an activity you like, as then you are more likely to have shared interests/value base with people you meet.
IRRC you are a gourmet, so some kind of cooking society / club might be a good place to start.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If you are not meeting any women socially, then the first thing you need to do is find some activity you can do regularly in which you will come into social contact with women regularly.
Er, I go to church. I even preach in church. And I work in an adult eduction college. The two classic places to meet women! There are lots of women. Lots of lovely women. All not very interested in me as far as I can tell.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
Neither of those are leisure activities - and I wouldn't have thought either of them are good settings in which to meet women, especially not if you are an authority figure in both.
It effects how the women there will see you.
[ 13. December 2012, 20:50: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
I joined a hillwalking club in Glasgow with a view to meeting nice outdoors-y chaps. The first walk consisted of a group of about ten of us single gals, and precisely no nice outdoors-y chaps. We had a rare old time and decided to set up Date-Trek, a match-making walking club.
Funnily enough, I walked up Ben Vorlich on my own one day, and was chatted up on the summit by a lone walking and perfectly eligible nice outdoors-y man. I was too nervous about being on my own to talk back properly, or I could have been in there. Another bloody chance I let slip by!!
I think I'm going to start going to the rugby.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
Try to get on a mixed rugby team if you do that.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by rufiki:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And some kinds of community or political events and so on - tend to be dominated by men. And when there are women they are nearly always either with one of the other blokes or else so much younger than me it fails the xkcd test (which being a bloke I don't really mind of course, but I'm sure they would) Easy to meet someone, but not easy to meet Someone. Same's true of church, which at least has lots of attractive single women in it, but they are mostly thirty or more years younger than me.
I know someone who met her second husband (in her 40's) at Salsa class. I understand all kinds of dance groups have a dearth of men. Of course you'd need to have some enthusiasm for the actual dancing too...
Speaking of which, just had a nice date with someone from my dance class. Guys, if you have any sense of rhythm and enjoyment of dance, do get yourself along to a class. It's a lot of fun and there's a very reasonable chance the women will outnumber the men.
I would also issue the additional advice that if you do give it a try, potentially with a view to widening your social circle, then fresh breath, deodorant and dry hands go a long way to helping you with that aim!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Lovely Hazey*Jane! My problem is that my interests are either very female, not very sociable or if they attract men in a social setting, it's all men older than my parents.
How do people meet love interests NOT through interest/social groups?? My church being liberal Anglo-Catholic is therefore not exactly a hotbed of eligible young men. There are single young men at my uni Christian Union but there are ahem, issues there which means a successful match with one would be highly unlikely.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
Through work/study - anyone eligible on your course ?
Though the obvious other tactic is to develop some co-ed interests. What are your current major hobbies ?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Through work/study - anyone eligible on your course ?
Though the obvious other tactic is to develop some co-ed interests. What are your current major hobbies ?
Main hobbies - politics/current affairs/social justice (from a leftwing/socialist and feminist perspective), history (pretty much all kinds apart from military history), birdwatching, reading (detective novels, early sci-fi, higher-quality fantasy, lots of non-fiction), sci-fi, DC comics, hiking/walking in the countryside, theology and church history, trying to like poetry. I am 23. None of this is particularly attractive to any Christian man under 30 that I know - and the few that I've found, I've been on dates with and it's a no.
My main problem is that the young Christian men I know are usually politically more conservative than me (and more often than not opposed to women's ordination), and go for women with more 'feminine' interests. The men I've had most in common with on dating sites tend to be atheists, which for someone hoping to enter ordained ministry, is not really appropriate. I do think it's important that the person I share my life with shares my faith, that's really non-negotiable.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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Jade - perhaps you're thinking too big. stop thinking "share my life with" for now and just starting thinking "share dinner with".
You're young and people's beliefs and philosophies change over time. if your drop-dead rule is Christianity, you're going to get the ones you've been finding. Because there's a lot of men out there (especially in early 20s) who's faith doesn't make their list. not yet. it's background. as they age it will shift around in their priorities.
But geez I look at that list and think, I know a ton of guys (including my son! but he's too young for you...) who match you interest for interest. My son calls himself an atheist right now also. a year ago, he was toying with buddhism. in another year, it will be something else. and eventually, he'll settle for what he really believes.
But damn, girl, get your butt to a comic shop! There are some wonderful, amazing, nerdy guys just hoping to meet you. sort out the religion piece if and when "forever" comes onto the table. right now, find someone who you can talk history and politics with and just enjoy their company.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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But that's sort of my point - I'm not sure matching interests is the most important thing. I'm interested in people with similar viewpoints on life as me - including Christianity - not necessarily similar interests. Sharing an interest in comics is a bit irrelevant if we don't share a love of the Creator of the universe. There actually are young Christian men I know that I do share interests with - the problem is their theological conservatism which means they're not interested in a heathen liberal like me, or if not that then they want a girlfriend who doesn't share their interests and is 'more feminine'. Being seen as 'one of the guys' is part of the problem for me.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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How are you defining Christian for this purpose ?
FWIW I know for a fact that our regular group of magic players at the games shop has at least one evangelical Christian (there may be more, but it doesn't tend to come up in conversation).
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Christian as far as I'm concerned is being in agreement with the Nicene Creed. Filioque phrase optional Not attending church for whatever reason is fine, been there myself. But I would want an active Christian faith to be there (even if it's actively despairing) even if not attending church.
This probably sounds harsh but it's not indicative of my friendships - I am friends with plenty of non-Christians, but I do put different standards on my romantic relationships.
I will try the local comic store - I actually get most of my comics via the library because of cost but will see if there's any kind of comics club going. Unfortunately any romantic experience with men with similar interests to me has all gone the same way - initial interest, then ditched for the first Good Submissive Christian Girl available. Marxist-Feminist Anglo-Catholics in Dr Martens don't get a look in, even if the young men in question are sympathetic to those values themselves. They're taught to look for the 'right' girls who are 'right' according the the culture of the church, not what's right for them.
I don't blame men, I blame the insidious gender divisions in evangelicalism, and evangelical megachurches for poaching all the young men.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But that's sort of my point - I'm not sure matching interests is the most important thing. I'm interested in people with similar viewpoints on life as me - including Christianity - not necessarily similar interests.
Yes. As I discovered, just because both of you find (for example) the same TV programme funny it doesn't mean you have the same sense of humour. It's entirely possible for two people to like the same thing for completely different reasons - sometimes those reasons might not even be compatible.
Affinity is an odd thing. You can sometimes fall for someone who pretty definitely doesn't meet whatever criteria you outlined on paper or your picture of The Ideal Man. It's good to have some idea of your priorities and what's important to you, but keeping the list to a minimum and being open-minded is best. And not expecting too much. Basically if he makes you laugh and he's kind and fun to be with, that can go a long way.
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Marxist-Feminist Anglo-Catholics in Dr Martens don't get a look in, even if the young men in question are sympathetic to those values themselves. They're taught to look for the 'right' girls who are 'right' according the the culture of the church,
Maybe you should look for an unchurched man, and make sure he gets the right teaching from the start.
Worked for me!
At twenty-three I shared some of your shopping-list of husband-worthy qualities, and was equally desperate.
At twenty-five I took myself off to an evening of folk music (but feel free to substitute any other non-gender-specific activity) where my obvious enthusiasm for the music attracted the attention of a young man. Initially my response was a little chilly, but eventually I threw caution to the wind and in an uncharacteristic fit of rebellion accepted, over time, a coffee, a lift, a date and a proposal. During that time he accepted from me an invitation to church, and an invitation from God to follow Christ.
It will be our Ruby Wedding next year.
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Unfortunately any romantic experience with men with similar interests to me has all gone the same way - initial interest, then ditched for the first Good Submissive Christian Girl available. Marxist-Feminist Anglo-Catholics in Dr Martens don't get a look in, even if the young men in question are sympathetic to those values themselves. They're taught to look for the 'right' girls who are 'right' according the the culture of the church, not what's right for them.
Don't discount it entirely, this socialist- feminist evo attracted her mate entirely because she was wearing docs, a circa 1972 Laura Ashley dress, patterned tights and a leather biker jacket whilst sitting amongst a group of middle class con-evos in smart jeans and fleeces. Not everyone likes conformity.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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I suppose this might be more encouragement, although it concerns a woman in her forties. She had been widowed some years before and it was years before she wanted the company of another man, so when she did she stated her preferences and 'practising Christian' was right at the top of the list. She met three or four thoroughly nice, presentable men fitting her preferences but they were, to be honest, pretty boring.
Eventually she met, through mutual friends a divorced man, not a Christian, and not ticking a few other boxes either. While they are different they are both strong characters so there was instant mutual respect, that turned to love, he became a Christian, they married and he is now as involved as anyone with the church and has brought a wealth of talent to it.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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Some more encouragement for Jade, I hope.
When I was 21 I made a list of 'Desirable Qualities in a Husband'. Number 1 was 'must be taller than me'. Yes, I was that shallow.
A couple of years later I met someone who is about an inch shorter than me. I realised he was The One when we stood back to back to see who was taller... and I was deliberately slouching, because I didn't want to be taller than him. After that I decided to forget about The List, because it was all wrong anyway. The most important thing on it should have been 'must share at least some of my interests'; but until I met him I'd never encountered a man who liked reading as much as I do.
We've been married for 23 years.
And I realise that wanting your Other Half to share your faith is more important than wanting someone who will help you conform to social expectations of how a couple should look, but I do know several couples who don't share the same faith and they seem to manage. Don't automatically dismiss men just because they aren't (yet) Christians.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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I'm trying to do a major personality change. I was reared to be goal oriented, so view activities in terms of their goals and is that a goal I value more that other available goals.
For example I ignore cancer fund raising activities because (a) my family don't get cancer, and the diseases we do get need my research dollars, (b) I don't believe chemo is a reasonable way to fight cancer and I don't want to be throwing money a direction I disagree with, and (c) some specific cancer fund raisers billed as for research actually put only about 20% of funds raised into research, the rest is "programs" meaning promoting their fund raising events and paying high salaries.
But friends say they go to fund raising parties for the fun, they don't care where the entry fee money is donated. By not caring, they are getting out more than I am.
I used to go to classes and wondered why I never met anyone when the common advice is to go to class to meet people. Now think I made two mistakes. One was taking lecture classes, of course I didn't meet anyone when you just sit and stare at the front; you meet fellow students in activity classes like pottery or automobile repair.
The other mistake, I focused on the learning instead of on the people around me. I wouldn't notice if someone did wink at me or whatever it is people do to say "hi," I was goal oriented in walking in -- find a good seat, prepare my notebook for note taking -- and goal oriented in walking out -- get home and to bed so I'm not overtired for work tomorrow.
I need to be less interested in goals and more interested in the people. Like in choirs I've rarely made friends because I'm focused on the music and the director while the "bad" choir members are "disrupting" the rehearsal by "not paying attention" because they are exchanging whispers and giggles and walking out not knowing the music but making friends. Maybe their way is better?
MAJOR personality change, but life is about growing and changing! I can do this!
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
One problem I wonder how others of you deal with. (Who was it, responding to exclamations about how good she looked at 50, said "women have been lying abut their age for so long we don't know what 50 looks like"?)
Friends who find out my age go into shock, saying I look at least 20 years younger. So for the past year I've stopped dying my hair, to look more like my contemporaries and maybe attract some into conversation or a date.
But just last week -- well, there's a widower at church I've been gently trying to show a tad bit of interest in, but he's been wholly unresponsive. Recently we were on a committee together and in email chatter mentioned our ages, born the same year! He expressed deep surprise, saying he thought I was 20 years younger than he. Ever since, he's be much warmer to me, returns greeting with a happy grin instead of an abstract disinterest. That confirmed to me what I was beginning to suspect, looking too young is interfering with meeting people my age.
A healthy senior probably isn't interested in someone in their 40s. If you look 45, how do you convey that you are 65 or 70, so someone who sees you from across the room knows to come chat, or someone I approach to chat with knows I'm their age not their child's age?
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... politics/current affairs/social justice (from a leftwing/socialist and feminist perspective), history (pretty much all kinds apart from military history), birdwatching, reading (detective novels, early sci-fi, higher-quality fantasy, lots of non-fiction), sci-fi, DC comics, hiking/walking in the countryside, theology and church history, trying to like poetry.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
"DC comics" Everyone knows Marvel comics are the best and DC pathetic - at least they were until the British Invasion of the early 80s and the Vertigo spinoffs - but that isn't really mainstream DC (and is also before you were born... )
And military history is fascinating and poetry is arguably the greatest of all artforms.
But apart from that what's not to like?
Semi-seriously, you seem to have been meeting an odd lot of Christians. If none of them can stand all that sort of stuff then there must be some kind of pre-selection going on. Because lots of Christians would have no problem with those things.
quote:
Marxist-Feminist Anglo-Catholics in Dr Martens
In some of her moods that might describe my daughter. Who is I think about the same age as you. And sometimes reads and posts on this website so I dare not say more (other than that she really doesn't go for walking in the countryside, or birdwatching)
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't blame men, I blame the insidious gender divisions in evangelicalism, and evangelical megachurches for poaching all the young men.
Hmmmm. Not sure about this at all. I don.t think the majority of evangelicals go to megachurches. In fact I'm pretty sure they don't unless there are a lot fewer evangelicals than we thought. There simply aren't enough megachurches - and they aren't that big really. Here in London anyway, things might be different where you are.
Its blatantly true that there are fewer men than women in most ordinary churches, but I don't think that's because the men have gone of a-worshipping somewhwere else. They don't go to church because they don't want to and they never did. And neither did their fathers and grandfathers on the whole.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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The Christians my own age like very mainstream films (rom-coms for girls, action for guys), reality tv, clubbing and the majority don't read for pleasure.
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on
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Interesting points about age Belle Ringer, I guess it does influence how people interact with you. I hope the change in approach is fruitful.
Jade, you sound an awful lot like me, we have similar interests except the DC comics
I agree about some larger evo churches though, St H in London had an evening congregation of about 400 when I went there and I'm pretty sure there were fairly equal numbers of men and women, possibly even more men, presumably owing to recruitment in the City services on weekdays. I'm not sure that this is representative of all mega churches though. My own large chari church has slightly more women but the numbers are roughly equal in younger singles.
Given your interests, is there not a history society or similar where you might meet like-minded people? Or something like a local Amnesty group? Do you go to Greenbelt in the summer as there will be lots of like-minded people there.
[ 18. December 2012, 19:34: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
Belle Ringer I know what you mean to a small extent. I am mid 30's but people put me 10 years younger than I am and I am a student. Not sure what to do about it though. Most of the time I like looking younger, but when it comes to meeting potential other halfs it's not so great.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Faith is a funny old thing. I had a GLE friend who was keen to meet a Christian man. She duly met her husband at bible college, but I'm told he subsequently lost his faith.
Comet, I love what you say about forever/for dinner. I need to remind myself of that often. I'm terrible for sizing people up for a life together and missing all the fun bit like going for coffee or seeing a film.
The person who's on my mind at the moment is a proper silver fox. I think he's younger than he looks because he's gone grey. I look younger than my years, so what Belle Ringer says resonates as well. However, mission: lunch date is in progress.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
I do get the thing about just enjoying having dinner together and so on - but I've had so much of that with friends. Even my non-evangelical friends are all starting to get married, and while I don't quite want *that*, either I know a disproportionately huge amount of engaged/married young people or I should hurry up a bit.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
...or I should hurry up a bit.
DON'T!
Seriously. Don't rush these things, just cos you're seeing other people do it.
When I was your age (good grief, I'm now old enough to say 'When I was your age...' ) I was quite a morally conservative but socially liberal Catholic with GLE influences from my time in CU, where it had been drummed into me that one should never date a non-Christian. Weddings were happening left, right and centre. I didn't feel I 'fitted' into various moulds.
I still don't fit, but I'm at peace with that. An Indian friend of mine says she thinks she and I have a similar issue - my being a person with (an admittedly fluctuating) faith but socially liberal values means I don't appeal to conservative Christians nor liberal atheists
(nor do they appeal to me) while she has the challenge of being both Westernised enough to not want a traditional Indian marriage while being traditional enough to not fully fit into a Western mould. It *is* a challenge if you're a bit of a non conformist, but I think it's worth staying true to who you are, while recognising the points at which maybe one could compromise without losing one's integrity.
I'm actually quite glad I wasn't getting married at the time that all those weddings happened. Had I done so, I don't know if it would have lasted, as I've changed so much in the last few years. Partly due to dealing with difficult situations in my 20s but some of the change might have happened anyway. At your age ( ) I was a firm believer in 'no sex before marriage'. Fast forward a few years and, well, I'm still technically a virgin, but the whole thing has more of a 'So what?' about it than any glowing virtue. I'm glad I didn't rush into anything when I was younger, but equally it seems rather banal at this stage. Similarly, my 'He must be a Christian' stance has softened. I don't think I could comfortably be with a militant atheist, but my last (sort of) relationship was with a semi-lapsed Hindu who shared many of my general values, and respected the fact that I had a faith of my own. So don't be desperate to set the 23 year old Jade in stone and shackle her to a fixed entity. You may well find that a future version of you is the one that you will feel most at home in. That's certainly true for me.
Comet's point about the dinner/forever contrast is worth holding on to. I myself end up wildly extrapolating from all sorts of scenarios and can panic myself out of merely having a coffee with someone. You seem dissatisfied, though, that just focussing on the dinner bit would be too much like what you have with friends. Don't knock it. Those existing comfortable friendships may change over the years to come, for good or bad reasons. No harm in cultivating a few more.
I've recently been on a couple of dates with a guy from my dance class. Turns out he's 10 years older than me but doesn't look it. As yet I have no idea what his personal beliefs are, and when I find out I may consider them to be incompatible with mine, but for now the passing of time together is enjoyable.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The Christians my own age like very mainstream films (rom-coms for girls, action for guys), reality tv, clubbing and the majority don't read for pleasure.
Oh Dear Sweet Jesus On A Pogo Stick. Run. Just Run.
So, let's go down Ariston's Walk Of Shame, shall we? There have been . . . well, most of my exes (or demiexes) started out as "both of us were lonely, I didn't like her, but thought I couldn't do better, so, what the Hell, why not." These never end well. NEVER. There's a well-known and slightly obscene John Waters quote about books and, um, dating that I really should have considered during my last relationship—she had about 25 books in her whole house. I'm on the Ship. I think most of us here have 25 books on the floor because we ran out of space on our shelves.
No, never ever settle for someone dull and ordinary, without even the slightest bit of curiosity about the world. There are many things I might compromise on, but never again will I settle there. Spending half of your time together looking for a graceful way out because you're bored out of your skull in an existential way isn't right.
As for completely friendly, no subtext at all advice/statements (given that I'm a single Christian man under 30 with interests in strange, bright, and odd women, that disclaimer is very necessary), well, there are guys out there who can both say the Creeds with a clean conscience every Sunday and think dating, much less being married to, a submissive girl would be a long slow death by boredom. Hi there. You know anyone in the States, because I have a "friend" who . . .
You get the picture. We're out there, and, TBH, going slightly nuts for the same reason you are—I know that dating sites say I should be with a secular humanist or Reform Jew and all the Good Christian Girls seem to like the idea of submission and lotsa kidlets—but yeah, giving up already is a Bad Idea. I know I'm really one to talk (every girl I had so much as a crush on in high school or college is engaged, married, or has a kid—though not necessarily in that order; every guy in my grad school class and the one after it is either married, planning on joining the priesthood, or believes in courtship, not dating), but not everyone else is you. Listen to me while I'm still speaking sense and not . . . well, doing questionable things that counter everything I've just said.
Alright, enough of that. If anyone knows where I can find a Bad Christian Girl—if they start Suicide Girls for Jesus, I'll be first in line—please let me know. Until then, I have my glass furnaces, molten metal, and Japanese pottery to keep me from harassing women.
[ 19. December 2012, 02:26: Message edited by: Ariston ]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Heavenly Anarchist - haha yes, it seems like we have a lot in common! Nice dreads Greenbelt seems really cool, but I can't drive/don't have a car and since my church mostly consists of older people there's not a group going from there. I will ask around to see if anyone else in my circles are going though. And yes there are history societies etc at uni (actually the history society is one of the most active societies) but depression has not been kind of my social life. I will try and make more of an effort.
Hazey*Jane - I know, I know, and I do realise that not everyone getting married will stay married (or even stay engaged). And honestly I'm not very fussy - being a Christian is pretty much the only requirement I have of a man, I'm even willing to compromise on them not being a conservative (although it would be quite awkward for them to be opposed to women's ordination and be with me, for example) and would want to live together before marriage. I also question how much a non-Christian would want to be with someone who wants to enter the priesthood!
Ariston - heh, I actually do have quite a few friends in the US although mostly on the West coast and in the South. But yes, the John Waters quote is very apt. My books might be mostly electronic rather than paper now but the point still stands. The president of my uni's Christian Union didn't know what fascism was until someone told him when we were round his house and his girlfriend didn't seem in the least bit bothered. Don't worry, the concept of not reading for pleasure is alien to me too, even if those books are non-fiction a lot of the time. As long as you are not a nice guy, I don't think it's you that's the problem.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm not very fussy - being a Christian is pretty much the only requirement I have of a man, I'm even willing to compromise on them not being a conservative (although it would be quite awkward for them to be opposed to women's ordination and be with me, for example) and would want to live together before marriage. I also question how much a non-Christian would want to be with someone who wants to enter the priesthood!
I'm pondering writing a profile for Match dot com, and whether to state I'm a Christian, which is too huge part of my life and world view to ignore but the word in USA Bible Belt so often is understood to mean "ultra right wing Republican anti woman anti-gay" etc, which would miscommunicate who I am.
Maybe instead of "Christian," use wording more precise so the word isn't out there being wildly misinterpreted as to who you are? "Gently Christian," or "Liturgical Christian," or my usual: "Eclectic Christian," or?
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
:
A-political Christian?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
A-political Christian?
Actually my Christianity is pretty political, just political on the left.
Belle Ringer, on the dating sites I've used - and I don't think dating sites are for me - that's not actually possible. Religion just has a drop-down box and various options to choose from, and another drop-down box to select how seriously you take said religion.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The Christians my own age like very mainstream films (rom-coms for girls, action for guys), reality tv, clubbing and the majority don't read for pleasure.
So do most peope of all ages, whether Christian or not. That's why those things are "mainstream".
I don't think theat alternative sets of likes and dislikes are any more common among Christians than among non-Christians. Though as there are fewer Christians around there will be fewer socially odd ones as well, IYSWIM.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
The majority of people read for pleasure, surely??
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The Christians my own age like very mainstream films (rom-coms for girls, action for guys), reality tv, clubbing and the majority don't read for pleasure.
So do most peope of all ages, whether Christian or not. That's why those things are "mainstream".
I don't think theat alternative sets of likes and dislikes are any more common among Christians than among non-Christians. Though as there are fewer Christians around there will be fewer socially odd ones as well, IYSWIM.
Part of why I was/am drawn to Christianity is that it totally goes against mainstream thinking in terms of who society honours (the Beatitudes etc). Surely that should mean that there are more people who are less 'mainstream' within Christianity? Or even that Christians should be less 'mainstream' in order to show how un-mainstream Christianity is (John 17, Romans 12)?
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
:
I don't think the Beatitudes say anything about preferring bird watching to rom coms. I don't mean that to sound sarcastic, but although Christianity might suggest some different moral values, I don't see why it should suggest different aesthetics too. And I say that as someone who can't abide action films or reality tv.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Well no, I just wondered if an alternative worldview would also lead naturally to more alternative interests.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The majority of people read for pleasure, surely??
Of those who do read, yes, I'm sure. But unfortuinately a lot of people don't read anything unless they absolutely have to.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
I have a friend, who I met while at University and she was studying English Literature. We were close friends the last year and afterwards my parents invited her to join us, on holiday, in a flat in the Lake District we frequently went to.
Said flat had a bay window with a great view over Windermere and four comfy chairs just behind it. My family's practice was to clear up after breakfast, pick up one of our reading books and sit in the bay for an hour or more reading. We just did it
Friend was amazed. No tv on and the family all reading together. It was something she had never experienced. This girl read for pleasure but had thought that reading was always solitary.
Jengie
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
My high school librarian said 50% of adults don't read any books after they leave school.
And that was before cable TV. I have friends who don't own any books. An evening together is playing a card game together, or doing arts or crafts together, instead of reading. I'm trying to become more like that because being more active with others would be healthier for me.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
My high school librarian said 50% of adults don't read any books after they leave school.
And that was before cable TV. I have friends who don't own any books. An evening together is playing a card game together, or doing arts or crafts together, instead of reading. I'm trying to become more like that because being more active with others would be healthier for me.
My family do those things and read though! We don't usually read together, unless we're looking something up in a nature book or something, but we all read alone for fun (including my very dyslexic sister), and play card games etc together for fun.
The idea of not reading for pleasure is totally alien to me and my family (FWIW, very working class family from Coventry UK).
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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Attributed to John Waters:
quote:
If you go home with somebody and they don’t have books, don’t fuck them.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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And if you bring someone to your place and they look wonderingly at your books and ask, "Have you read all of these?!?" don't fuck them.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Reading books doesn't get you out meeting people.
Neither does surfing the web, I'm perpetually trying to reform.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
And if you bring someone to your place and they look wonderingly at your books and ask, "Have you read all of these?!?" don't fuck them.
I think there have been a few women I've been on dates with who I was more interested in seeing their bookshelves than their bedsheets.
I've heard that bookstores are good places to meet women. The problem is that I tend to be too interested in the books to bother chatting anyone up.*
*Ditto art museums, but it's a rare woman indeed who can tear me away from Goryo dynasty inlaid ceramics. Very rare.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
I think there have been a few women I've been on dates with who I was more interested in seeing their bookshelves than their bedsheets.
I've heard that bookstores are good places to meet women. The problem is that I tend to be too interested in the books to bother chatting anyone up.*
*Ditto art museums, but it's a rare woman indeed who can tear me away from Goryo dynasty inlaid ceramics. Very rare.
Way back in the sepia-tinted days of my early twenties, ( ) I actually articulated to someone or other that the guys I wound up really attracted to were usually obsessed with something other that women. I mean, women, too, but there was a an obsession of equal or more compelling intensity.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
I think there have been a few women I've been on dates with who I was more interested in seeing their bookshelves than their bedsheets.
I've heard that bookstores are good places to meet women. The problem is that I tend to be too interested in the books to bother chatting anyone up.*
*Ditto art museums, but it's a rare woman indeed who can tear me away from Goryo dynasty inlaid ceramics. Very rare.
Way back in the sepia-tinted days of my early twenties, ( ) I actually articulated to someone or other that the guys I wound up really attracted to were usually obsessed with something other that women. I mean, women, too, but there was a an obsession of equal or more compelling intensity.
Yes! To both of you. Where I've found something 'missing' with perfectly nice, decent men in the past is that, well, there was nothing they loved that much. I mean obviously they loved other people, like family members, but there was nothing they were so passionate about that they loved it to distraction. I find such an intense interest in something very attractive.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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(sorry, insomnia and editing posts don't mix apparently!)
Next chapter in 'Jade is on the ASD or does a good impression of it' coming up...
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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Bookclubs can be a way to meet people.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Bookclubs can be a way to meet people.
All the ones I've been to, only women come.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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Okay but they are the chance to form a new friendship circle and through that possibly meet more people - give it time.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Bookclubs can be a way to meet people.
All the ones I've been to, only women come.
Women are people too, and I'll bet single men are reading this thread even if they aren't posting.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Okay but they are the chance to form a new friendship circle and through that possibly meet more people - give it time.
Yes, and I belong to several women only groups of various kinds, including recently finding a women's camping/hiking/kayaking group.
But I would enjoy mixed company sometimes, not even to find a date, just for mixed friendships.
The book group I joined for a few years folded. I hear rumors of another one in town, women only but as you say a potential for friendships, although groups that meet once a month have never been a friendship source for me. (Interesting how many married women crave women only groups.)
Working on a long project together is better for getting personalities to intermix, having a passion in common to talk about, and then suggest a meal together, but usually when you suggest it they are rushing off to plans for right after the project, like pick up the kid from school.
One of my best friendships developed after we worked to meet a midnight new years eve postmark deadline on a project, she for her company, me an outside consultant, we took it to the 24 hour post office together and then got a hamburger and chatted and hit it off. We'd known each other professionally for several years without connecting personally that way. (Now I'm puzzled why we both went to the post office, probably we had already decided to go get as bite to eat instead of just going home, it was new year's eve!)
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
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This is a digression but how are book groups found out about ? I have read several people here saying they are in them but have never seen one advertised.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
This is a digression but how are book groups found out about ? I have read several people here saying they are in them but have never seen one advertised.
If it meets in a book store or at a library, that facility will know, you can ask bookstores and libraries if there is a book group.
Others seem to be word of mouth, which means those of us who aren't out circulating a lot don't get the word.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
This is a digression but how are book groups found out about ? I have read several people here saying they are in them but have never seen one advertised.
If it meets in a book store or at a library, that facility will know, you can ask bookstores and libraries if there is a book group.
Others seem to be word of mouth, which means those of us who aren't out circulating a lot don't get the word.
Particularly a problem for those of us with social anxiety problems.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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I made it to 6pm on Christmas Day before shedding a tear of self-pity - YAY ME!
I am now engaged in praying for grace to be grateful for what I have, which is a safe and peaceful place to be. Yes, there are family tensions, and lots of people I miss, but that's a good thing.
I dunno: I suppose I miss people I've never had, sometimes with a sharpness like bereavement. I know I should be content with what the Lord has seen fit to provide, which is a great deal. Who am I to think I know better? Humility's hard. I also believe in miracles. Faith is hard.
I think self-pity stops up my ears to what God is saying too. I was literally overlooked by Handsome Single Guy this morning (he couldn't help it - he's quite tall) and used that as a prop to another of my lame beliefs about myself. What also happened is that someone told me I am a blessing to that community. She's a holy person and someone I believe. I think that's what God wanted me to hear this morning.
A happy and blessed Christmas to all,
From Mad Cat
(NOT watching the "Call the fricken Midwife" Christmas fricken special)
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I dunno: I suppose I miss people I've never had, sometimes with a sharpness like bereavement.
This resonates so deeply with me. It's such a human thing, the hope and the hunger for deep connection.
How beautiful that in the midst of that, you're still able to take stock of the blessings you DO have.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Yep, and yep.
Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
This is a digression but how are book groups found out about ? I have read several people here saying they are in them but have never seen one advertised.
Our bookcrossing group is on Meetup.com.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I dunno: I suppose I miss people I've never had, sometimes with a sharpness like bereavement.
This resonates so deeply with me. It's such a human thing, the hope and the hunger for deep connection.
Yup, I have deeply mourned the children I assumed I would conceive and birth. Not having them is a terrible loss. Different from the loss of kids you did birth, a friend's son died in a traffic accident, that's loss of a specific individual, both both ways of not having any children leave a hole.
Never having a spouse, an adult who chooses you and you them to live with and love, or having one and losing him/her to divorce or death; they both leave a hole. Different holes, but both are real.
And the family closeness that dwindles as others move away and form their own families.
I think a lot of aging is about loss -- of relationships, of dreams and goals that aren't ever going to happen, of physical capabilities and the activities that required those capabilities.
And learning to love life and God and others even with all the losses of what you thought life was about and made it precious.
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
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Hi, long time observer, first time poster on this thread.
I will turn 30 years old next year and per usual, I'm single. Sometimes I wish I was more normal, in the sense that my interests in theology and Biblical studies are not necessarily shared by a lot of people. I think that that is part of the reason I can't find anyone to click.
Most of my friends are partnered. Well I admit it, I'm a bit jealous. I know I'm preparing for ordained ministry in a few years and I have committed to that plan. Whenever someone offers me advice, I would like them to stop saying:
1) "Your prince will come."
Uh...No. Partners don't pop out of nowhere.
2) "Being in a relationship isn't all that cracked up to be.'
True, but usually the people who tell me this are in relationships themselves. If it's not all that cracked up to be, then why are you in a relationship?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Hi, long time observer, first time poster on this thread.
I will turn 30 years old next year and per usual, I'm single. Sometimes I wish I was more normal, in the sense that my interests in theology and Biblical studies are not necessarily shared by a lot of people. I think that that is part of the reason I can't find anyone to click.
Most of my friends are partnered. Well I admit it, I'm a bit jealous. I know I'm preparing for ordained ministry in a few years and I have committed to that plan. Whenever someone offers me advice, I would like them to stop saying:
1) "Your prince will come."
Uh...No. Partners don't pop out of nowhere.
2) "Being in a relationship isn't all that cracked up to be.'
True, but usually the people who tell me this are in relationships themselves. If it's not all that cracked up to be, then why are you in a relationship?
I'm often surprised at how few fellow Christians are interested in theological studies. And I empathise with all you're saying, welcome to the thread
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Sometimes I wish I was more normal,
I could build a massive hell rant on that one.
ETA: not towards you, AB.
[ 30. December 2012, 15:58: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
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It can be very difficult always to truly believe that we really are valuable as singles, and that anyone's value does not lie in the "success" of having found a partner. Having had various partners at one time or another, though not for a very long time, imo it is absolutely true that partnership in itself doesn't answer all questions or solve all problems. Though it can mask some of them for a time.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
It can be very difficult always to truly believe that we really are valuable as singles, and that anyone's value does not lie in the "success" of having found a partner. Having had various partners at one time or another, though not for a very long time, imo it is absolutely true that partnership in itself doesn't answer all questions or solve all problems. Though it can mask some of them for a time.
It is much easier for a partnered person to become single, though, than for a single person to find a partner!
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
It can be very difficult always to truly believe that we really are valuable as singles...
Or as part of a couple. But so what?
There's an old joke that money can't buy happiness - but if you're going to be sad anyway, I'd rather be sad and rich than sad and poor.
In the same way, sex (or marriage, or companionship, or being a parent, or having a nice cuddle) can't fix whatever it is that's wrong with you - but it would be nice to have the choice
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
It can be very difficult always to truly believe that we really are valuable as singles...
Or as part of a couple. But so what?
There's an old joke that money can't buy happiness - but if you're going to be sad anyway, I'd rather be sad and rich than sad and poor.
In the same way, sex (or marriage, or companionship, or being a parent, or having a nice cuddle) can't fix whatever it is that's wrong with you - but it would be nice to have the choice
So true.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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OK, I will close off this thread with a mope and hope that maybe it will provide a sort of cliffhanger that will have a universally satisfying conclusion in the New Year, for both viewers and principles.
I was encourage to go to the new year's party at a cafe in a very small local town, by the head waitress, who is this crazy wonderful Bostonian import who tolerates me sitting around for hours doing my essays for class. She has a voice like Mercedes McCambridge, only Boston.
I went, and I'll say about 2/3rds of the night was very cool- The town, a bit south of San Francisco, is a place in the Big Basin redwoods where Hunter S. Thompson actually hung out at times when he lived in the Bay Area. Once you meet the locals, you totally get how he would fit in there. Marin/ Sonoma Counties is the cultural stronghold of ht Hippie movement, Big Basin is the cultural stronghold for the Yippie movement. Anyway.
As I mentioned up thread, one challenge I am giving myself is to interact with men in a comfortable manner-- And (for two thirds of the night) I triumphed in this-- I had a nice, leisurely conversation going with the bartender, was chatting at some point with each member of the middle-age seventies rock cover band (I was singing along to just about every thing on their playlist-- I bounced up to tell the lead guitarist I loved his solo on "Pretzel Logic" and was a huge Steely Dan fan and had been listening to their three CD Best Of album for a month solid, and he squealed "Oh, really?? That's so weird! Me, too" Like we were a couple of fourth graders who'd just discovered we had the same shoe size. The lead singer lectured me about Hunter S. Thompson. The drummer-- I think he just wandered over to see what the lead singer was talking about, but I chatted with him, too.)Put it this way, I was being equally social and comfortable with every man and woman I would up sitting next to. It felt great. I thought, maybe I can do this-- maybe I am not an anti-social loser. Maybe even I can become happy and content just belonging to a moments like this-- I don't have to be in a couple, I can just be part of several. And it was OK.
And then, at about 10:30, this guy sat himself next to me at the bar (while I was singing along) and all of a sudden he started leaning on me- stuff. So I moved away, closer to the band. More cheering and shout outs. The guy followed me. He got up and "tripped" on the way to the bathroom so that he landed on me and had to grab all over the place to get up. I shook him off me and moved away again. I sat at a table for a moment, and he came over and pushed his chair up to mine in such a way that I was physically blocked into a corner. I asked him to move, then politely got up and left again. The more calm and direct I tried to be about not being interested, the louder and more confrontational he got. he was making it impossible to continue the conversations I was having, and impossible to watch the band (which was the best part of the evening for me.)
I talked to a couple women at the bar, and they commiserated, saying the guy had a "reputation" and they'd had encounters with him before, and he just didn't accept "no." (My experience was that the more calm and direct I tried to be about not being interested, the louder and more confrontational he got.) Both of them had big, huge lumberjack looking boyfriends on their arms.
And her's where my fantasy of belonging fizzled-- see, when I used to go clubbing with the girls back in the day, and some weird guy couldn't take no for an answer, I had the comfort of five or six girls who would glare daggers at the guy until he slunk away. The real problem wasn't that I didn't have a lumberjack on my arm, the problem was that I barely knew anyone there-- the whole town knew each other. I got sympathetic glances form some of the folk I had been chatting with, but it was clear they wren't going to make waves by interfering. One woman , who had seen me ask the guy to go away, actually pressed me to dance with him.
By the time midnight came closer, I saw him maneuvering back to me, and I knew that if I stuck around he'd use midnight as an excuse to do something really inappropriate, so after wrestling with my love for the band and the general atmosphere, I realized that, no matter what I wanted, this guy was going to force it, and nobody would stop him. So I cut out at five minutes to midnight, because I just couldn't stand the idea of starting off the New Year that way.
Here's the thing-- last night I was pretty much OK with my choice; I was alone and had no back-up, and my own sense of safety was the priority. This morning It just hit me that I missed the ball drop at a party I was enjoying, and I am beating myself up for not knowing what to do about the situation, other than leave.
And just sick with frustration that there really was a room full of cool people who I could have been having fun with, but I was socially cock-blocked by a belligerent asshole Fucking story of my life.
[ 01. January 2013, 23:21: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
*hug hug hug*
there's one in every crowd. In the future, I recommend asking the bartender for help, or even better the door staff if they're available.
people like that are bad for business, as illustrated by you leaving early. bar staff know this. if you request help with someone like that, the staff want to get the guy out of there so you'll continue to be a customer. they want the good customers.
And trust me, they deal with this stuff all the time, they know how to handle him. if he's a regular, they know how best to manage HIM.
However, unless it's really blatant they probably won't intervene without being asked - for one, it's NYE and they're already crazy busy, and for another, a number of people don't WANT intervention. I dunno why. So in future, ASK.
alternately, ask one of the women to loan you her lumberjack. a big guy walking over and "having a word" is really effective. I've done this a number of times, and almost every decent guy out there is happy t help, because they feel jerkoffs like this make the whole gender look bad.
If I were there, I'd have totally put the fear of God into him for ya! Don't let one asshole ruin your night.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Once I get to know these folk better (and I intend to) that was about the tactics I was thinking of. I did talk to the head waitress; the bartender seemed to notice what was going on but was also kind of physically small (also he was the one guy I thought was cute and I didn't want to become an "issue" to him) and seemed hesitant to do anything about it, and in retrospect the girl waving me to the dance floor may have been indeed offering her lumberjack.
No bouncers. This place is more of a cafe than a bar-- beer and wine only-- so I don't think they have the kind of battle plan for assholes the Applejack's across the street does. (You'd probably like Applejack's. Raging biker dive.)
If any one person looked like they were about to step in, it was the lead singer-- but he was drunk as hell as well-- God knows what he would have added to the mix, in other words--and on that note, getting the hell out seemed the best idea at the time.
I'm just going to make myself more of a regular so I can be bolder.
(and thanks for the virtual beat-down offer. )
[ 02. January 2013, 00:35: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Gutted for you Kelly. It sounds like a great bar - I hope you have other great nights there.
I stayed at home on NYE. I'd hoped to visit a friend down south but he was away. Other friends had rented a place up north. I'm sure I could have tagged along with various other people, but I would have felt just like that - tagging along.
I hate that moment after the bells when everyone turns to the person they think of first to wish them happy new year, and the singleton is left spare. It's only a moment, then I get to give everyone good wishes, but I hate the fact that in the first moment of the new year, I'm feeling a bit sorry for myself. Another exercise in humility I suppose, and I should ask God to fill up that space. Well, there's a prayer idea!
I passed a very pleasant NYE in my flat watching Jeremy Renner in a movie I had a fantastic view of the fireworks from my window and a bottle of 16 year old single malt. If I'd had friends there, that would have been lovely too, but I can live with my own company one night of the year.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
New year, new beginnings. Old, unsettled stuff.
I rang in the new year surrounded by good folks, some known to me, some not.
Still dwelling on the relationship that wasn't. Still finding that, with ten minutes to go before the New Year and I've handed my phone off to have someone take a picture, a Happy New Year text comes in from her (she's at another social event with people I don't know), and I'm thinking again about who I'd rather be with. Trying not to read something that isn't there into the reality that both of us, in that moment, are surrounded by other people but reaching out towards each other.
Ah well. As a friend of mine said, "People are kinda like coats sometimes. They seem to often stay hung up on something until they get hung up on something else."
[ 02. January 2013, 21:41: Message edited by: infinite_monkey ]
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
Also in a bar on new year's eve, this time our local pub so I vaguely knew a lot of people at least by sight. The people I was with went just after midnight and I actually had more fun talking to people I didn't know. Not in a potential-significant-other way though, the conversation I remember best was with a 60-something Turkish man telling me how his mother brought him here as an immigrant in the 50s and he did badly at school because he didn't speak English and ended up in jail - before, rather than after, he threw his stepfather through a shop window at the Elephant and Castle on his wedding day. And some rather less pleasant things. For some reason that happens to me a lot in bars. I mean getting told about someone's upbringing or past troubles. Its genuinely interesting in a sort of mildly depressing way.
Oh, and the woman who owns the pub doesn't like the DJ playing too much reggae, and I goaded him on to put on "King Tubby meets the rockers uptown" which would not normally be played on an evening that tends to Christmas number ones, 1980s dance hits, and Elvis.
And that's a sort of irrelevant displacement paragraph for not being able to think of anything to say to Kelly other than that sounds like shit
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
ken, I can only imagine what you would have done to the guy. Very cheering.
[ETA, because I can: ken, people in bars-- men and women-- tend to tell me all their thoughts on God. Every last one of those thoughts. I guess I just carry the Ship everywhere I go.]
[ 04. January 2013, 01:45: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Kelly, if only all the folks who have your back in the non-literal sense could have had your back in the literal sense...that dude would never have known what hit him, and you'd never have cause to doubt whether you belonged.
Geography's such an unfortunate part of life, at times.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Don't know how relevant it is to an inappropriate behavior in a cafe/bar, but at work one of the bosses "accidentally" brushed his hand across a friend's breasts while chatting, you've probably experienced it, quick one word apology without any hint of embarrassment and no taking a step back; she responded by slamming her high heel spike into his instep, and said a quick "sorry." He never touched her again.
Alas, I don't wear spike heels.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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[tangent] A quick knee in the groin probably works just as well. [/tangent]
If people want to pursue this tangent on unwanted attention I think Hell might be the best place to do it.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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For those of us in the UK, did anyone else watch Gok Wan's new dating show?
I thought he had some good tips. I liked the 'Drive By', which I thought was hilarious, but also seemed to work. It did help that the girl Gok was mentoring was really pretty, but I could imagine trying the same thing (I'd need to choose my 'wing-man' carefully - some of my buddies would just disgrace me by laughing. I would probably get the giggles too though.)
The clothes he chose for the girl were not to my taste, but it made me realise I probably fail massively in my choice of date outfit. I probably look much too prim and unavailable.
Gok managed to show off his mentee's lovely figure without flashing lots of flesh. It made me think what I need to do is find the right silhouette, then build an outfit that's a couple of notches the right way along the Prim:Slutty axis from where my comfort zone is.
[ 04. January 2013, 11:56: Message edited by: Mad Cat ]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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No, but I did see Miranda which made me consider Slutty Moth as my next look ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Yesterday I rejoined the large dating site. Today in the paper the ladies who wrote The Rules were opining about online dating.
Apparently I should not email or contact any men via the large dating website, but allow them to contact me, because I am a beautiful creature unlike any other. WHO KNEW!
My tactic last time was to get in touch with guys who had shown interest by visiting my profile. I'd email once or twice, and suggest meeting for coffee, my theory being, what's the point of busting a gut trying to compose interesting emails to a stranger if you then meet and there's no spark and he's lied about his height?
But no. I must wait, and see if he emails me. And if he DOES email, I must NOT ask to meet up. I must wait to be asked, and if he hasn't asked by email four, he's not going to.
So I propose I take one for the team. Solely for research purposes (and because I've tried everything else) I'll follow The Rules for one whole week and let you know how I get on.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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Good on you! I look forward to the results
I read The Rules some time back. It recommended reading the papers so you had something to talk about on your date. I suppose reading it for any other purpose might look a bit bluestocking-esque, and frighten the men off. Perhaps that's where I'm going wrong...
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
I've never read it, but when I tried online dating I never had any success in initiating contact. That is, if I sent the first message I'd never get a reply. It seemed to be ok to 'favourite' someone to get their attention, but initiating contact seemed to be firmly in the man's domain. Which is a bit depressing In This Day and Age™.
While I'm here...the date I went on with someone in my dance class lead to another and another and... I seem to be in a relationship. It's a little surreal. It's also not the best timing as I'm now away for three months for work, but in some respects that gives us a chance to really get to know each other better without feeling a sense of rush or pressure. We're both very long term single people, so actually an adjustment period before getting to be a couple might not be a bad thing!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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How I wish dating sites worked for me - on paper they sound perfect for me (and so much easier than traditional dating) but they just never work I can't afford paid sites and I find it difficult to find Christians via the better free sites.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
Yesterday I rejoined the large dating site. Today in the paper the ladies who wrote The Rules were opining about online dating.
Apparently I should not email or contact any men via the large dating website, but allow them to contact me,
That is so 1950s!
I fulled out a profile. There's a local guy my age. When I get over my current virus bug I plan to contact him with "I'm at Starbucks for an hour or so every Tuesday afternoon at about 3 PM. Come tell me about the art you do!"
Nothing to lose in suggesting it, right?
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
While I'm here...the date I went on with someone in my dance class lead to another and another and... I seem to be in a relationship. It's a little surreal... We're both very long term single people, so actually an adjustment period before getting to be a couple might not be a bad thing!
Wonderful news! I'm excited for you both--and that sounds like a very nice, gentle way of testing out the waters.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Belle Ringer and Hazey*Jane - how exciting for you both!
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
I've never read it, but when I tried online dating I never had any success in initiating contact. That is, if I sent the first message I'd never get a reply. It seemed to be ok to 'favourite' someone to get their attention, but initiating contact seemed to be firmly in the man's domain.
Eh, that's pretty normal from our perspective too. I'm lucky if I get a 20% reply rate to a first message—and they usually peter out pretty quickly after that. I average about one meeting per year out of online schtuff; it's not like there's a shortage of interesting, attractive single men with much better jobs than mine in these here parts!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Mad Cat - just wondering, are you looking exclusively for a Christian partner/date/whatever? If so, have you found the Big Dating Site helpful or unhelpful for this?
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Belle Ringer and Hazey*Jane - how exciting for you both!
Well, we'll see.
Some of the dating site guys are -- well, like there's one who sounds like we have a lot in common and we are the same age, but he only wants younger women, 2 to 20 years younger than he is. Unthinking training from the days when that kind of age difference was supposed to be normal? Or a problem personality?
A friend actively searched Match dot com, has some wild stories to tell about the wacky men, the one looking for a cook more than a wife, the rich man who took her shopping with his credit card but got abusive when drunk; nothing she'd want to pursue as a relationship. Still the adventure might be fun.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Some of the dating site guys are -- well, like there's one who sounds like we have a lot in common and we are the same age, but he only wants younger women, 2 to 20 years younger than he is. Unthinking training from the days when that kind of age difference was supposed to be normal? Or a problem personality?
Sadly, I don't think he's an isolated case. We have a friend who was left on his own in his mid 50s and has been doing online dating... and freely admits that it's regarded as a real feather in the cap if a man gets a woman some years younger than he is.
I know - makes me want to ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
as well.
Nen - having to bite her tongue constantly when said friend is around.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
not even close to an isolated case. Of the single men I know mid-30s to close to 50, all of them only seek out younger partners. including the gay guys.
what is interesting to me, is that the men who show interest in me are either 15 years my senior or at least 10 years my junior.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
The last time I used Big Free Dating Site, it was well over 6 months before anyone contacted me, showed any interest by adding me as a favourite/winking or replied to my messages. This applying to everyone, not just Christians. I had ONE interested man across a whole year and had a disastrous date with him. I don't understand what I did wrong?
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
Yesterday I rejoined the large dating site. Today in the paper the ladies who wrote The Rules were opining about online dating.
Apparently I should not email or contact any men via the large dating website, but allow them to contact me,
That is so 1950s!
I fulled out a profile. There's a local guy my age. When I get over my current virus bug I plan to contact him with "I'm at Starbucks for an hour or so every Tuesday afternoon at about 3 PM. Come tell me about the art you do!"
Nothing to lose in suggesting it, right?
I would suggest picking a spot less habitual, just to be on the safe side. And offer a specific time - ideally, when you first meet someone from online life you do so in a public place and have some one you inform when and where you are going, and when you expect to be back. Someone who will follow up if you don't ring as planned after the date.
Worst case scenario - if you meet him and never want to see him again but he thinks you're fab - you won't necessarily want him to know where to find you every tuesday afternoon.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I fulled out a profile. There's a local guy my age. When I get over my current virus bug I plan to contact him with "I'm at Starbucks for an hour or so every Tuesday afternoon at about 3 PM. Come tell me about the art you do!"
I would suggest picking a spot less habitual, just to be on the safe side.
Valid advice. The fact that I have walked into Starbucks only once in my life fits right in. I figure a "new habit" for a month will give him ample time to respond. If he doesn't, but some later month shows up and I'm not there, he can message me if he wants to. Maybe it's a personality flaw but I'm not going to sit around waiting indefinitely for one man to show up.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Ah, the joys and sorrows of online dating. I get about a 60% response rate when I send an initial email to a boy, which is honestly higher than my own response rate when contacted. I initially tried responding to everyone, with polite thanks-but-no-thanks action when needed, but that often invited folks to try to argue their way into continual contact, and that felt icky.
It's a weird, weird medium, and I find it challenging to have the right attitude towards it--it seems to me like the healthiest thing to do is to just merrily toss out messages and responses, divorced of any real expectation of response or very much self-doubt if you don't hear what you hope to hear. Even more than in face-to-face dating, the vast majority of what's happening on the other end is outside of your knowledge and control: is he virtual-dating sixteen other girls? was he hit by a bus and that's why he's not responding? maybe her old flame suddenly came back? what if this whole profile is a fictitious item created by an extremely bored 14 year old?
I'm working on an attitude of diversion, without strong hope. If things go well enough in the face-to-face stage of things, that's when I'll let myself feel a bit more invested.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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I dislike online dating mostly because of the initial form-filling - it feels like writing a particularly horrible Personal Statement or CV.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Also does anyone else have a problem with taking pictures of themselves? My mouth naturally turns downwards slightly so I just look miserable in all pictures of me!
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Also does anyone else have a problem with taking pictures of themselves? My mouth naturally turns downwards slightly so I just look miserable in all pictures of me!
Get a friend to shoot several dozen pics of you. You'll get more relaxed, be able to choose one where you are laughing or other natural animated expression instead of just staring at a camera.
If you have a figure to show off, man or woman, that might be more appealing than a face. I don't mean major display, but someone who wants "attractive" probably means "not weighing 400 pounds," let them see.
Also, a picture of you fishing, painting, doing something, says something about you, might help someone connect.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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I did an impressionistic painting - but many sites insist on a photograph unfortunately.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Story time. Years ago in a distant town when the web didn't exist, ads were in newspapers; I answered a few.
One guy stated an age that was exactly mine, and that he wanted a woman 1 to 15 years younger, and she must be beautiful.
I answered the ad anyway, on the theory (a) most of us don't really know what we want, and (b) one year of age makes no difference, (c) everyone is beautiful to someone.
He picked me up for lunch from work, took me to a buffet restaurant, said he had to make a phone call, and disappeared. Half an hour later lunch hour is disappearing fast, how long do you politely wait for your companion to join you? I got up and served myself at the buffet. I was half way through eating when he came rushing back into the room, apologized, grabbed some food from the buffet, ate it fast, paid, took me back to work.
On the drive back to the office, he declared I was the one, he was pulling his ad, he would call me the next day.
He didn't call, of course.
But what amused me most -- this man who insisted on a beautiful woman -- was hard to look at. It wasn't just the long scar on his face, he was severely wall-eyed. That's no sin, but he was not the male equivalent of a beautiful woman!
Anyway, I did NOT believe him when he said I was "the one" because we barely had any time together! I did worry a tad for a few days that he might actually call, but when I saw his re-worded ad I relaxed. His ad was changed from 1-15 years younger to a new wording of 2-15 years younger.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Loving all the stories!
Here's the news from the large (paid for) dating site:
I'm attempting to play by 'The Rules' and allow the men to do the chasing. I'm doing a relevant search, looking at those who've viewed my profile, and adding the likely looking lads to my favourites. I figure this is a way to let them know I might be interested (some people object to 'winks').
Handsome chap had checked out my profile so I added him to favourites. He visited again, so I thought: this is the online equivalent of eyes meeting across the bar. So I broke 'The Rules' and sent a short email, on the grounds that everyone needs a bit of encouragement. No reply yet, and if I don't hear from him in the next few days, I'll assume he's not interested. Likewise with the other 'favourites'.
I think I'm being more open minded this time round. On the faith issue, I usually check to see if the other person has put 'Atheist', as they would probably object to my church habit. Other than that, I'm not looking for someone Christian. A friend met her husband at bible college and he subsequently lost his faith.
On the age issue, I've been disappointed to see guys of my age or older who specify that they want to meet someone in their 30s. This often correlates to them having no children, and I suppose these chaps are still keen to be a dad and hope to meet someone who has a good chance of conceiving. So yup. They think my ovaries are too f****ed. Punch me right here. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Via the site I'm in email contact with a couple of chaps who seem nice. I'm going to see if I can keep to this 4 email rule, and let them ask me if they want to meet.
In the meantime, handsome chap at church remains handsome, and I intend to try as many of Gok Wan's flirting tips as I can next time I go out!
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
My father is a regular church goer, my mother is an atheist. I don't think you can assume an atheist partner will cause you grief over church going. After all, they love you and want you to be happy.
Secondly, I think the men wanting women younger than them is superficial - but probably has bugger all to do with children.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I'm attempting to play by 'The Rules' and allow the men to do the chasing... (some people object to 'winks').
... So I broke 'The Rules' and sent a short email, on the grounds that everyone needs a bit of encouragement.
I'm curious who invented the "rules." Are they dating site laws, or one adviser's ideas.
Among the 30 and 40-somethings I know, most marriages resulted from the girl chasing the boy. That's what the parents tell me, anyway. "She chased him until her finally caught on and caught her." I don't know that the husband interprets things that way, but the "she" was aware of relationship possibility and came up with invitations to parties etc to increase time together, while the "he" was still oblivious to relationship, focused on career and blowing off steam on weekends.
Similarly, it's a later step, but let me put it this way, when a friend told me "he proposed" I said "tell me what really happened" because seems like it's usually the woman who initiates the "let's get married" moment. Friend laughed and said yes, actually, what happened is she asked him if he was going to propose marriage, he said he'd like to but didn't know how, she said "let me help you" and led him phrase by phrase.
Of course, chasing a guy until he catches on that you're a good catch takes some subtlety. No one likes to be pushed or feel trapped.
And I don't mean that it's all women doing the chasing, I've had men use similar strategies on me, the "accidentally acquired" two tickets to a show I'd enjoy, the chance meetings at places he knows I frequent, etc. Good tactics.
Remind me to get a more regular schedule eating out at a regular place so someone has a chance to use that tactic on me!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I'm attempting to play by 'The Rules' and allow the men to do the chasing... (some people object to 'winks').
... So I broke 'The Rules' and sent a short email, on the grounds that everyone needs a bit of encouragement.
I'm curious who invented the "rules." Are they dating site laws, or one adviser's ideas.
Here, in all its sordid Wikipedia glory, is the basic concept of The Rules, including the list of same.
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
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I couldn't possibly comment on the success or otherwise of these, but no. 31 sets alarm bells ringing.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
ALL of my married friends (whose lives I know anything about) violated some of those rules.
Other than the nonsense about don't be the one to initiate contact and don't accept a last minute date, there is an underlying logic to don't wear him out by talking to long or staying up to late, and don't give too much too soon, like sex on the first date might keep him coming back for sex but not for you so make sure he first gets to know and like you.
The no last minute date rule is why I didn't get to go to the prom, a guy's date cancelled on Friday, he called me looking for a replacement, I had been taught not to let anyone know I'm not already busy if they call on short notice so I'll look more desirable -- so we both stayed home instead of going to the prom, did that make sense? Really stupid rule.
I can understand not training a guy to think you do nothing but wait for him to walk in and brighten your life, sitting around dependently waiting for an invitation is stupid, if he fails to call you'll do nothing? Go make plans and do stuff!
But saying no joining him at that concert you'd love and he has two tickets for, just because he called a day ahead instead of a week ahead, is nonsense. If you are free, go! If not free, express regret. That's all. Same as with any friend who invites you.
And flirting, saying hi, that's how it's done! Lots of men are a bit shy.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Written up as a list, The Rules look positively sinister.
I'm totally failing to keep to them. I emailed another guy last night, as it seemed daft not to.
I think I was looking to these 'Rules' in the hope that they might provide an an explanation for my failure to attract any of the guys I like. They don't though. So it must be the Boy Repellent.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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...... or the scales all over me.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
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I'm fascinated by how Rules 22 and 26 are compatible:
22. Don’t Live with a Man (or Leave Your Things in His Apartment)
26. Even if You're Engaged or Married, You Still Need The Rules
Though I have heard of arrangements, particularly involving couples who have got together at *cough* a certain age *cough* often after previous marriages/longterm relationships, where the individuals concerned live separately and carry on their independent lives and get together for lovely times at weekends. I gather it can work very well.
Nen - wondering if Mr Nen is ready for the shock.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
...... or the scales all over me.
Pffft. Based on recent experience (disastrous speed dating), I am clearly a mutant. Yet one of my friends appears to be interested, so obviously scales don't make any difference at all...
Of course, he's left the country* before it could go anywhere, but you never know what will happen when he returns.
*For work, not fleeing the country to avoid me, just to be clear.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Awww...is that the one you mentioned who you had a lovely weekend with, who was going to leave the country in October? And you were trying to figure out how to suss out whether there were signals?
I was wondering how that shook out for you. Details if you'd like to share them!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
I had quite a good match with someone on Big Dating Site - politically and religiously matched which is apparently not that common? - until he told me that liberal Christianity lead to Nazism
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I had quite a good match with someone on Big Dating Site - politically and religiously matched which is apparently not that common? - until he told me that liberal Christianity lead to Nazism
I'm cautious about labeling myself "Christian" because in too many minds it has a rigid "conservative" meaning, especially in the minds of the "conservatives"! So I indicate religion is "somewhat important" even though it's my daily framework for living!
Ideas on how to handle this sort of question in the sign up forms are welcome!
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
Well remembered, infinite_monkey! This is actually a different one (no, not all men I'm attracted to leave the country). The first one has sadly gone, and I know didn't want to start anything when he was going to be away for 4 years - that was a general conversation, not a me-specific one. The current one will be back in a couple of months, so I intend to wait and see what happens then. Definite signals, just poor timing!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I had quite a good match with someone on Big Dating Site - politically and religiously matched which is apparently not that common? - until he told me that liberal Christianity lead to Nazism
I'm cautious about labeling myself "Christian" because in too many minds it has a rigid "conservative" meaning, especially in the minds of the "conservatives"! So I indicate religion is "somewhat important" even though it's my daily framework for living!
Ideas on how to handle this sort of question in the sign up forms are welcome!
It wasn't until then that he came across as conservative - seeing as he is a Christian Socialist. It was more about him calling Scripture, Tradition and Reason 'liberalism'....
I have tried Christian sites but they are overwhelmed by super-conservative types, and I got chucked off the last one I was on for being for gun control and liking Obama. And you couldn't say 'boobs'.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm cautious about labeling myself "Christian" because in too many minds it has a rigid "conservative" meaning, especially in the minds of the "conservatives"!
It wasn't until then that he came across as conservative - seeing as he is a Christian Socialist. It was more about him calling Scripture, Tradition and Reason 'liberalism'
Ah, yes, "reason is not to be trusted because we are supposed to have faith"", traditions are made by man not by God"; that sort? Hard to maintain friendships with people whose world view has little in common with your own.
Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm cautious about labeling myself "Christian" because in too many minds it has a rigid "conservative" meaning, especially in the minds of the "conservatives"! So I indicate religion is "somewhat important" even though it's my daily framework for living!
Ideas on how to handle this sort of question in the sign up forms are welcome!
That was exactly my worry. I met my Mr on Guardian Soulmates, and theyhave a box to tick for "ask me later" on the religious bit. I ticked that - not 'cos I'm ashamed of being a Christian, but I didn't want people to think I was very conservative - I'm not. When I went on my first date with the Mr, he said, "So I presume that means you're a Christian?"
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
<bump>
So, fabulous fellow single people, tell me the story of you and Valentine's Day.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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Hate it! I hated it before I was married. I hated it when I was married to someone who ignored it. I hate it now that I'm divorced.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I'm curious who invented the "rules." Are they dating site laws, or one adviser's ideas.
No real advisers involved. Basically a throwaway bit of lowest-common-denominator feature journalism that took off and made some money for the people who made it up. About as serious as the Cosmo Quiz (do they have them any more?) Or the stuff that you see on the celebrity gossip pages of tabloids.
I doubt if the authors really believed it to be true when they wrote it.
quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
I couldn't possibly comment on the success or otherwise of these, but no. 31 sets alarm bells ringing.
Not half as loud as 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 16, 17, and 18 which are all much scarier than not talking to a therapist.
That's not courtship, that's acting like a doormat that's taken a vow of silence.. What's next, purdah?
Also someone who behaved like that in our society would simply never meet large numbers of men because they would be making themselves invisible to them (& I'd be one of those men they'd never meet - maybe that's my problem) Perhaps it might work in Saudi Arabia.
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
<bump>
So, fabulous fellow single people, tell me the story of you and Valentine's Day.
What story? Its irrelevant to single people. It was pretty stressfull when I wasn't single, but at the moment its got about as much to do with me as the National Day of Venezuela. Whenever that is.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
5th July
Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on
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The bonnie lass and I don't really make plans for Valentine's Day, on the off chance that one of us is having an awful day. It really is one ofof those holidays that's either irrelevant, depressing, or stressful. Welcome to Hallmark America.
Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on
:
Mr. S and I went out for dinner on Thursday the 13th once (no chance of a babysitter on the 14th). Come Friday 14th, he was made redundant - I wasn't working and we had a six-month-old baby.
Is it any wonder we don't subscribe to this over-priced, over-rated 'celebration'?
Besides which it always seems so 'manufactured' - a bit like Hallowe'en, but pink instead of orange.
Mrs. S, still bearing grudges from >30 years ago.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
A church nearby where I have friends was going to hold a Valentine's Dance as a church social. One of the widows protested "that leaves out those of us with no partner." The church changed it to a Valentine's Party. Nice! (Nice not to be told the too common "we're not changing it just for you!")
But yes, the problem is Valentine celebrations (what are we celebrating?) is usually about young love. I haven't felt related to it in decades, not even when I was dating someone.
Maybe what we need to do is redefine it to something else and celebrate love the earth, or love your cat, or love your neighbors, something less demographically narrow.
With 40+% of the adult populating unmarried (although some are coupled) and 27% of households one person, (USA figures), we may be ripe for some cultural change in how we celebrate dates like Valentines and New Years that were traditionally couples events.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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I must have been left behind somewhere in the 33 years of my married life, because AFAICR Valentine's Day was for those who were unaware that they had an admirer, and it was treated as the day on which anyone could make a discreet move, usually with a card or with flowers, to get a.n.other's attention. In short, if a Valentine came and there wasn't some element of surprise, it was a disappointment.
So, unless things move fast it wasn't for couples. What's been going on in singlesland since 1979?
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
:
Ms. C and I are trying out a new bistro on the 15th. Easier evening to get reservations than Valentines Day.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
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On the topic of Valentine's day I rather like this.
This will be my first Valentine's day in a couple for about a decade (well, unless something goes horribly wrong between now and next week ). I plan to have the chat over the weekend to check that we're on the same page regarding its pointlessness and irrelevance...
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
So, unless things move fast it wasn't for couples. What's been going on in singlesland since 1979?
By the time I got married, not long after 1979, it had become a way for couples to demonstrate their amazingness in public. The reason it was stressfull for me is that my then girlfriend and not much later wife had a list of things I had to do - there must be this sort of card, that sort of present, this sort of meal - and tht had to be done in sight of the people she was trying to impress or keep up with. Far from secret it was more or less dictated. I could get out of sending Christmas or birthday cards - but this was comnpulsory. Any failure to deliver the appropriate wonders of the day would be remembered and revenged.
It seems to have got worse since. You can't go out enywhere in London because everywhere is packed with couples very publically and ostentationsly enjoying themselves. Doesn;t always work of course. I usually work late and the trains back home from town on that day (or the nearest Saturday) are crowded with drunken young people, more than the usual proportion of them crying their eyes out.
Just as New Year's Eve is a day when people who don't normally drink drink too much (its very much not an event for couples here) so Valentines Dayt seems to be a day for people who don;t normally dress up and go out to restaurants and give each other gifts in public to do just that. And like the once-a-year-drinkers they often do it badly.
As for secrect cards, well, maybe. Such things certainly went on on when I was at school in the 1970s. But as far as I remember I never sent one to anyone, and I'm sure no-one ever sent one to me. And I think even then there might have been something competitive about it, mainly among girls who wanted everyone to know that they got mroe cards than the others. Though the very worst thing would be to get a card that was obviously from the wrong sort of boy - that woudl be shameful. The wrong sort of boy being the uncool unsporty scruffy spotty sort that Americans later taught us to call geeks and nerds.
Or so I remember it.
Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on
:
The one time I got a secret Valentine's card, it sent me into a panic. I narrowed it down to two suspects: either a teenage boy, or an elderly man. Both as inappropriate as it was possible to imagine.
If anyone plans on sending one, for pity's sake put your name on it.
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
:
I had a secret card when I was at University, it was so secret that I never realised who it was from until about 2 years later when I saw the same person's handwriting on something else. I had never even suspected him!
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
Ah yes. Firebombing of Dresden Day. Decapitate a Priest Day. Tommy Gun Appreciation Day. Fredrick Douglas' Birthday. Death day of Captain Cook, St. Cyril, and P.G. Woedhouse. Statehood Day for Arizona and Oregon. And, most importantly, Cheap Chocolate's Eve, Mass Dumping Eve, and "Trust me, if they're at the bar, they're probably single" Night.
In other words, a great time to be a happy and joyful cynic! Go around being a wet blanket and hose blast of cold water while everyone enjoys their transitory hedonism they worked so hard for, just to please someone who probably won't be around in a month? Don't mind if I do! Grab yourself a tin of Bittersweets and join the party!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
It's a silly, silly holiday, but I found myself feeling sad about it nonetheless--walking past a few indie shops with adorable small things displayed, like letterpress cards and bud vases with just one red tulip. I realized, dammit, I wanna give someone that stuff. I want that stuff from someone. This looks like a party, and I wish I were invited.
Later, I thought about it, and I decided I'd throw my own party, so to speak. So every day from two days ago till Valentine's Day, I'm challenging myself to recognize one thing I love about someone in my life, and to let that person know exactly what it is. I'm making my own space to say loving things to people.
And so far, it's honestly more awesome than a box of bad candy.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
Marks and Spencers are selling kitchen hand towels with hearts on as a gift "for her." I would so like to be a fly on the wall when some lucky woman finds herself unwrapping a two-pack of teatowels.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
Although at least the kitchen towel description includes the words "soft" and "cotton" unlike the Marks and Spencer Valentine "for her" lingerie, which appears to involve man-made fibres, uncomfortable underwiring and itchy nylon lace.
Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Marks and Spencers are selling kitchen hand towels with hearts on as a gift "for her." I would so like to be a fly on the wall when some lucky woman finds herself unwrapping a two-pack of teatowels.
Whilst Mr. S-M and I don't mark Valentines Day or our anniversaries either, I would love a new set of kitchen towels, so come and see the joy on my face when I unwrap my new set!
Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on
:
And what exciting gifts do M&S consider suitable "for Him", I wonder...?
Posted by ElaineC (# 12244) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Marks and Spencers are selling kitchen hand towels with hearts on as a gift "for her." I would so like to be a fly on the wall when some lucky woman finds herself unwrapping a two-pack of teatowels.
Whilst Mr. S-M and I don't mark Valentines Day or our anniversaries either, I would love a new set of kitchen towels, so come and see the joy on my face when I unwrap my new set!
I'd also appreciate the tea towels over the lingerie. Even after 38 years of marriage I'm not sure Mr. C would get the size right!
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
Markies are selling a retro service bell. Judging by the picture on the packaging, this is the ideal gift for the man who likes to spend Valentine's Day sitting up alone in bed in his PJs playing with his ding-a-ling.
There's also a "For Him" Valentine gift of an ice-scraper, presumably handy for the man who gave his sweetheart a pair of kitchen towels, and who finds the atmosphere has unaccountably iced over.
I'm soooo glad we've never marked Valentine's Day in any shape or form (unless you count buying up half-price chocolates the next day).
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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A couple of years ago I'd bought theatre tickets for a free evening in February, and only later realised it was Valentine's Day. So I intended to go to the theatre with my then-boyfriend and it was going to be lovely. Except that we broke up instead (literally, outside the theatre) and I cried most of the way home, then all over my long-suffering flatmate for a lot of the evening, whilst drinking her wine. Ever since I've tended to skip the crying and just go for drinking wine. I also never did see that play.
Suffice to say, I wasn't a fan before that incident and I'm even less of one now!
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Cheap Chocolate's Eve...
I think our Cheap Chocolate Week is the first week of Easter. The third week of February is more like Cheap Greeting Cards Week.
It can go into the New Reformed Cheapskate Kalendar along with Cheap Pumpkin Week in early November, Cheap Turkey Week in late December, Cheap Wine Week at the begining of January, Cheap Haggis Week at the end of January, and Cheap Pheasant Week right now. (I bought two small ones for four quid last week, and one large one for four quid today - but that's probably it for fresh gamebirds till the autumn. Maybe that's why Lent comes at this time of year)
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
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We haven't celebrated Valentine's Day since before we were married. Mr Nen begrudges the money on the card, the inflated prices of flowers at that time, and the general over-commercialisation of it all. I confess I wish he wanted to mark the day with some romantic gesture, but don't want him to do it because he feels obliged.
A few years back a girlfriend of mine happened to go out for a meal one Valentine's evening with another girlfriend. They quickly realised that not only were they in a restaurant of couples, it was all gay couples. The friend she was with would have been very embarrassed, but she and I agreed that had we been there together that evening we'd have played the part with enthusiasm.
Nen - picturing the scenario.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
every day from two days ago till Valentine's Day, I'm challenging myself to recognize one thing I love about someone in my life, and to let that person know exactly what it is. I'm making my own space to say loving things to people.
Outstanding!
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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Amused.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Another friend has had a baby. There just seems to be constant birth announcements amongst friends and family!
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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At the risk of sounding like I get through a lot of dates or have a series of men interested in me and me interested in them (I don't!): I had a date last week from an internet site, which went really well, much better than I expected! The next day he messaged me and said he'd had a great time, and I responded in kind. The day after that, I sent him a message suggesting we meet up again. That was a week ago, and he's not read the message yet!
Any suggestions as to what I should do next, or should I just leave it and assume that he wasn't that into me after all?
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Grab yourself a tin of Bittersweets and join the party!
I LOVE that site. Ahh, thank you for the contented afterglow of a long, hearty laugh.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Excellent. Party in the cafe Thursday night, whaddaya say?
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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Aaiiiiiiiiii ain't got no-boaoaoaody
Nobody cares for me
And IaIaIaI'm so sad and loaoaoaoanly
Won't somebody come antakeachance with me?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Ariston, your entire life has lead up to H& A Day.
Posted by luvanddaisies (# 5761) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Excellent. Party in the cafe Thursday night, whaddaya say?
Fuckin' A
What time?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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I can be available after about 7 PM or so UK time. (11 AM my time.)
Posted by Cthulhu (# 16186) on
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HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT FACE TENTACLES SWEETIE?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Oh my God. I actually swooned at the thought.
Are they prehensile? (OH, my God.)
Posted by Cthulhu (# 16186) on
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I LOVE IT WHEN YOU TALK DIRTY
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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There's a website for everyone you know. A cosmic entity doesn't have to be lonely on St Valentine's.
I'd oblige myself but, inter-species intercourse, iffy.
(Wouldn't want it to go all ..... Prometheus.)
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
Any suggestions as to what I should do next
Anything you wouldn't mind going to? Film, play, rave night, lecture on applied Sanskrit - call him, say d'ye wanna? The main thing is to have an actual voice contact, which should tell you.
The least hesitancy of course - forget it.
Posted by sophs (# 2296) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
A few years back a girlfriend of mine happened to go out for a meal one Valentine's evening with another girlfriend. They quickly realised that not only were they in a restaurant of couples, it was all gay couples. The friend she was with would have been very embarrassed, but she and I agreed that had we been there together that evening we'd have played the part with enthusiasm.
Nen - picturing the scenario.
I'm going out tonight to Billion Women Rising with my gender queer best friend. We're having dinner first, and have been constantly mistaken for a couple over the last 5 years* so who knows what tonight will bring
*I think it's something to do with the fact we lived together, held hands and were generally a buy one get one free type deal to most things.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
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I have been in a stable relationship for nearly forty years and I may buy flowers today for my lovely bride - I did get her a card and I'm taking her out to dinner: I wish my brother had a steady girlfriend. He has a good job and a lovely penthouse by the sea, but he is painfully shy. At 56, he is no longer dating undergrads but has moved on to grad students and other girls in their late 20s and early 30s. He promised the family he would be married at 40, but he mis-spoke...
They have a word for women in his age group; Grandmothers!
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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Does your brother know that you're posting this sort of stuff about him on a public bulletin board that is read by people from all over the world? Would he mind if he did know?
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Does your brother know that you're posting this sort of stuff about him on a public bulletin board that is read by people from all over the world? Would he mind if he did know?
What he said.
But I can't help thinking that:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
At 56, he is no longer dating undergrads but has moved on to grad students and other girls in their late 20s and early 30s.
Is pretty conclusive proof that he is not painfully shy where it counts.
Not that that makes that much difference. Everyone is shy of course but some of us show it differently form others and in some ways I'm one of the least shy people I know. And I have very little difficulty talking to anybody. But those 20-something and 30-something postgraduates don't seem to be lining up for me. (They seem to be lining up for the coffee bar though. Maybe if I was supplying the university with coffee instead of software. No, that's no good, there are all those skinny Brazilians doing that. Of course I get paid about three times what they do,whichmight be some compensation)
Or more seriously, don't assume that the reason someone has or hasn't got married, or got a girlfriend (or a job, or anything else) is because they are shy. All sorts of people who are very shy get on in life, and all sorts of people who aren't don't. Sometimes things just happen. Sometimes they don't. If your brother isn't married and wants to be there might be all sorts of reasons, many of them nothing to do with his personality.
And even if they are its none of our business.
Posted by Amos (# 44) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I have been in a stable relationship for nearly forty years and I may buy flowers today for my lovely bride - I did get her a card and I'm taking her out to dinner: I wish my brother had a steady girlfriend. He has a good job and a lovely penthouse by the sea, but he is painfully shy. At 56, he is no longer dating undergrads but has moved on to grad students and other girls in their late 20s and early 30s. He promised the family he would be married at 40, but he mis-spoke...
They have a word for women in his age group; Grandmothers!
Your post suggests that you really, really want your brother to produce some little nephews for you--is that correct? As this is All Saints I suggest you can the dismissive reference to middle-aged women.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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That is not what I got from Sir K's post. What I read is that he disapproves of his brother dating younger women. Not quite as sexist as you read it.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Sir Kevin, maybe your brother just doesn't want to settle down? Not everyone does.
My main issue with Valentines Day is all the spiritual blog posts etc on it - I can easily ignore the secular stuff. It's when Christians talk about the importance of romance, whether between couples or between Christ and the church, that I switch off. I haven't got anything to add to the conversation about Christian relationships, because I have no experience.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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The part of today that doesn't make me retch is the genuine affection from honest, thoughtful people—like a minister friend of mine who was thankful she was married to a man who valued his family enough to spend this day 700 miles away from home to be with his dying mother. There's something profound about that, a realization that it's not just about you having The Most Wonderful Man/Woman In The World (seriously, so says everyone else), and that you're not the only person out there. Heck, I'll even smile at the rare "Life's still worth living when he's not around, but it's better when he is" statements.
These people don't make me cynical. I don't want to mock them. There's a certain honesty, a lack of any need to compensate for anything, and a focus on the other person, rather than a selfish possessiveness, that's genuinely refreshing.
For all the people posting pictures of the roses and fancy dinners while acting like they're unique in having found Mr./Ms. Right, however, I have some of DT's cards and some VERY NSFW punk. Fuck being sad, let's rock!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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On that note, can I just say having a friendly chat with a very much attached but generous-hearted person is a great way to while away a couple V-Day hours? (Thanks, Sioni)
I feel my need to be attached is not nearly as great as my need to simply belong.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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(Sorry more thoughts)
Josephine posted something on FB a few days ago about how the bulk of the moments of connection and attachment we experience have nothing to do with pair-bonding, but they are vital to mental health. I have en thinking about that one a lot since I read it.
So, like, the other day I was chatting with this younger male classmate of mine about how cool Jorge Borges is (and he is-- an Argentinian writer) and I flashed on that article-- I thought, "This is what that author meant. This is connection. And it's OK to just enjoy it."
Because what I've done in the past is overprotected myself by stonewalling guys in moments like that-- oh, you are so far out of my league I am not even going to embarrass you by acting like I find you interesting. (And that is genuinely how my inner monologue runs-- don't get too friendly, guys like this don't want to be seen talking to women like you for too long.) But what the fuck is a league, anyway? Why not the "Jorge Borges Admiration" league? He's a nice, friendly guy who likes load of people why would it upset the universe if he liked me, too?
And I do mean "like", not "Like, like."
And that article made me realize that I was taking it all much too seriously and failing to enjoy a whole lot of cool people along the way. So, thanks, Josephine
[ 15. February 2013, 00:14: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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Kelly, he's out of your league. It's the Jorge Louis Borges Admiration League, and we issue membership cards.
You'll find yours in Penguin Classics Deluxe Editions Volume 3: Selected Nonfictions. Just turn to the essay on Ramon Llull, it's there.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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(ETA, After looking up Llull: HOLY DAMN!
[ 15. February 2013, 02:27: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Yo. I have a date on Friday night with someone from the Large Dating Site. He seems nice, and keen.
I will be mostly attempting to not self-sabotage in any of the more obvious ways. For example, I will try not to wear a cardigan (although I love a cardigan).
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
Yo. I have a date on Friday night with someone from the Large Dating Site. He seems nice, and keen.
I will be mostly attempting to not self-sabotage in any of the more obvious ways. For example, I will try not to wear a cardigan (although I love a cardigan).
What's wrong with cardigans? All the fashionable girls I know wear cardigans over their vintage dresses.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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Depends on the cardigan.
This is cute.
But this is probably going to make just about anyone look boxy, and I'd never wear it on a date.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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My last date, both he and I were wearing cardigans (that sounds like some hideous matching thing, which it wasn't). And I fully intend to wear a cardigan on my date at the weekend. As RuthW says, it depends on the cardigan!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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I am 24 today. That makes me feel much worse about my perpetual singleness than V-Day
(Sorry about inadvertent edit - meant to hit 'Reply'.)
[ 20. February 2013, 21:56: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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I think this is probably the Cardigan of Doom .
If it's a) purple b) cerise c) orange d) 100 % acrylic then you probably need to revise your wardrobe. And your expectations.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Oof, Firenze, I hate to disappoint you but that cardigan's probably in Topshop - frumpy cardigans are the most fashionable right now And good luck getting a non-acrylic cardigan in any high street fashion store nowadays!
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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Probbly why I knit stuff.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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Thought I would drop by to moan about being single. I always seem to not want to be single, when I wouldn't have time for a relationship anyway!
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
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At age 24 I was still far too immature to consider marriage. I was barely ready at 30 - when I jumped into having teenagers...
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am 24 today. That makes me feel much worse about my perpetual singleness than V-Day
I hope it was a happy day, in spite of the singleness - however, 24 is no age.
Between the ages of 14 & 16 I had two boyfriends, from 16 to 26 I had three one-off dates. At 26 I met Mr RoS, and was taken by surprise when this unknown guy showed an interest in me on an occasion when my attention was elsewhere and not on dating at all. A year later I was married to him.
I remember the energy I wasted in the search for Mr Right (indeed, for Mr Anything Vaguely Willing) during my late teens & early twenties, which is why I follow this thread.
As Mr RoS said that my obvious enthusiasm for a shared interest is what attracted him, I am now of the opinion that developing interests* other than man-hunting makes you a much more attractive proposition to a possible mate.
*mixed gender interests of course
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
...*mixed gender interests of course
I'm not so sure about that!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am 24 today. That makes me feel much worse about my perpetual singleness than V-Day
I hope it was a happy day, in spite of the singleness - however, 24 is no age.
Between the ages of 14 & 16 I had two boyfriends, from 16 to 26 I had three one-off dates. At 26 I met Mr RoS, and was taken by surprise when this unknown guy showed an interest in me on an occasion when my attention was elsewhere and not on dating at all. A year later I was married to him.
I remember the energy I wasted in the search for Mr Right (indeed, for Mr Anything Vaguely Willing) during my late teens & early twenties, which is why I follow this thread.
As Mr RoS said that my obvious enthusiasm for a shared interest is what attracted him, I am now of the opinion that developing interests* other than man-hunting makes you a much more attractive proposition to a possible mate.
*mixed gender interests of course
But that's the thing - I have loads of interests that involve meeting people and obviously at uni there's no shortage of people to be sociable with. But just....no interest. From anyone, ever.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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I didn't realise I was gay until I was 29.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
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First bf at age 28, aborted engagement at 31. Ho hum, glad we figured it was A Bad Idea before actually tying the knot!
All my cardigans are from East. Lovely things in natural fibres (mine are all merino) and often available in their sales!
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
quote:
Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
...*mixed gender interests of course
I'm not so sure about that!
I may be stereotyping here, and if so I apologise, but wouldn't one stand a better chance of finding a gay man or woman in a mixed gender, general interest group than in a very blokey or girly group?
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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Sorry RoS, my response was very tongue in cheek - I have met more than one partner at mixed gender events.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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one of my gay friends is the regular local organizer of our girl's nights out. so figure that one out!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
quote:
Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
...*mixed gender interests of course
I'm not so sure about that!
I may be stereotyping here, and if so I apologise, but wouldn't one stand a better chance of finding a gay man or woman in a mixed gender, general interest group than in a very blokey or girly group?
One of my lesbian friends spends all her time at very girly craft groups and is far more feminine than me!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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I need to spend more time with my uni's LGBTQ society. Next week there's a movie night (Wilde) with cheese and wine! And the trans officer is a very attractive transman... ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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YES. I wore a cardy.
A purple cardy with a nice scarf. Very nice chap, and we have lots in common. I was convinced he wasn't going to get in touch again, in fact, I had a funny feeling he might be gay, but he'd gone home and sent me an email asking me to dinner. So I think I'll see him again, and he'll be a nice movie buddy if it doesn't turn into a romance.
I had a tiny breakthrough in personal confidence too (which I've been trying to pray over). I was having total dramas over what to wear, but was then pleased with my cardy/scarf combo. In the taxi I had the thought: "Who's the lucky man?" and it felt like one of those 'God' thoughts. So I think we should all practice that - every time we go out - "Who's the lucky <insert preferred gender>."
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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Hurray! And that sounds like a really good attitude to have.
I am meant to have a date this evening. It's just after 3pm and I don't know where or when it's meant to be yet. Suspect this chap isn't just the most organised, but how am I meant to be neurotic over what to wear if I don't know where I'm going? (A cardigan, of course, but what with?)
ETA: because by now I should know to preview post...
[ 23. February 2013, 14:17: Message edited by: Scots lass ]
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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You are of the mobile phone generation! The Youth of Today decide where to meet after leaving home, and then decide where to go for the night in between deciding where to meet and the third drink after meeting. I know pepole who go out to a club or a restaurant and don't make up their minds which until 10pm or midnight.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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True. But those people are presumably not looking at their wardrobe saying "hmmm, do I need to iron that?".
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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I think you'll find that iron is a four letter word!
Herself is sometimes spotted with an iron in her hand but the rest of us here eschew such devices.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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<bump>
How are things unfolding for y'all?
Personally, I'm having a difficult time. Recognizing how much I _want_ to have an intimate relationship, but also how much I get in my own way with that. It's just genuinely difficult for me to get out there, take risks, put my guard down, etc. And when I try, there's a really large part of me that's trying to shoot it all down with negative self-talk. Which I know isn't helpful, so then I'm arguing with myself about whether to disparage myself, while also attempting to hold a fancy cocktail and chat with relative strangers.
Humanity. Grrr argh.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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I agree with that, it's scary letting your guard down! A friend said to me a while ago that he thought it would all have been easier ten years ago, and my response to that was of course it would! Time adds knowledge of how much relationships can hurt, so the fear kicks in - which then gets in the way. I'm a bit terrified of dating in many ways, whilst also knowing I don't want to spend the rest of my life single and that means I have to get over it a little bit. Keep thinking of Mad Cat's great idea of how lucky they are to date you!
I did eventually manage to get a location out of my date last week, and had a really lovely time (wearing a cardigan, naturally). That was date two, I'm very much hoping there will be a date three but I rather think he needs to ask me this time! I asked him for the second date and have texted him a couple of times subsequently, date three needs to be his initiative I reckon. Unless we get to the middle of next week and he's not asked, then I might change my mind...
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
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Great that you got a second date, Scotts Lass. Have you tried texting something like "another date would be great. I've had my choice twice now, so it's your turn for us to go somewhere you like". Mind you, there are some folk who haven't got a clue, they are natural followers, and that's what you might have here. You might then need to decide if you want a relationship where you do the initiating.
[pah to predictive text]
[ 02. March 2013, 08:31: Message edited by: daisydaisy ]
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Just back from date two with the nice chap from the Large Dating Website. I was typically angst ridden beforehand, but enjoyed his company again. He suggested going to the exhibition of Iranian art at the National Museum, which I could hardly refuse. I don't think I fancy him, but he's a great chap. I'm having a go at not over-thinking things, and seeing how that works out.
My angst was over my lack of gratitude for this nice man's company. I was going out to meet him and wishing I was meeting the Silver Fox instead, who I find genuinely, fabulously attractive.
Silver Fox is, it seems, about 18 years my senior, which I am determinedly not over-thinking.
What are our thoughts on age-gaps?
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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I think it doesn't matter.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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Age gaps aren't a problem if the people concerned aren't bothered by them. I can see it being difficult if one partner doesn't want to settle down and the other really does - but that's not an age thing! There's a ten year gap between my parents, and they've been together successfully for well over 40 years now.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
What are our thoughts on age-gaps?
My recently acquired boyfriend is 11 years my senior. I was a little surprised when I found out as he looks young for his age (as do I). For the most part it doesn't bother me.
So far it isn't a problem, though there hasn't been anything much to test it yet. To be honest our life trajectories have some parallels (in terms of how we have reached our respective ages without being partnered up) and what seems to matter more is where we both are now, rather than where we've been, if you see what I mean.
Tell us more about the Silver Fox.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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My last relationship was with a man seven years my senior, and honestly, in a lot of ways, I was the grown up.
So I don't think the chronology is definitionally a problem.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
So I don't think the chronology is definitionally a problem.
I would agree that age difference does not in itself create a problem. However, I am unconvinced that the various factors a large gap may bring help a relationship. Situational, as are most things. Something to be thought about, but not obsessed over.
Observations from personal experience and observing others.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Yeah, there's definitely stuff worth thinking about. Like if a woman is past childbearing age but a younger man still wants that, or the unpleasant reality with older man/younger woman that one is pretty darn likely to outlive the other by a decent while.
Case by case, I reckon, like most other things--a weighing of pros and cons, and the fundamental truth that we can't KNOW how anything's gonna play out, in the end.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
So this weekend I attended the Student Christian Movement conference. It was absolutely wonderful and I learnt a lot, and also made loads of new friends. One of them is a guy who I ended up being unexpectedly attracted to, and bolstered by Sunday morning's service talking about being bold (not sure they had romance in mind though!), I asked him for his number and he gave it to me. From that and his other behaviour with me, I think he might like me back but having never been in this situation, I just can't tell. I don't want to just ask him! We have texted a bit, just general chat and did arrange to meet up in the Easter break. Not sure what to do?
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Take it day by day, little bit of contact by little bit of contact--no rush, just the unfolding pleasure of getting to know someone. It's most comfortable for me to match another person's pace:if I'm the one who initiates contact a couple times in a row, I might then step back and see when THEY step forward, just to avoid getting in a pattern where one person's always taking the lead. Don't overthink things, or think that this one connection is the only such thing that will ever be available to you. How great to meet a person you connect with: enjoy!
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
It's now been ten days or so since my date. He's replied in kind to the friendly messages I've sent but hasn't initiated anything. I'm thinking I will suggest meeting up again and wait and see what happens. Should I do it or not? Or do something completely different?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
It's now been ten days or so since my date. He's replied in kind to the friendly messages I've sent but hasn't initiated anything. I'm thinking I will suggest meeting up again and wait and see what happens. Should I do it or not? Or do something completely different?
I would suggest meeting up again.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
Age gaps? I always used to prefer older men (and indeed my parents had a 12 year age gap), but looking back there are one or two things I missed at the time:
An older man who wants a much younger woman may not be emotionally mature enough to relate to women of his own age. For that reason, a May-December relationship may work as they may both be on the same level. But you may find that he is immature at times, and if the relationship lasts, you are more likely to grow up than he is. And his attraction will still be to younger women. And after a while that may no longer include your age range.
For a younger woman an older man can be exciting, knowledgeable, more experienced and steadier than a callow youth. I never had any attraction to young men - so full of energy and opinions, and so little knowledge or experience.
The age differences will probably show. The older person will have less physical stamina, for one thing, so don't expect a sizzling sex life. Also, everyone over 40 has baggage of one sort or another. Sometimes in the shape of an ex-wife, or teenage/student age children who may come to stay every other weekend.
If you want to date an older guy, go for it. They can be charming, sophisticated and experienced, they're usually not short of money (so you don't have to subsidize them), and you can learn a lot from them. But go into it with your eyes open.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
It is interesting to see that the majority of posts on age difference have the guy older. One of the people on my ever-increasing list of "Women Who Think I Am 'Quite The Nicest Guy Ever™' But Are Still Not Attracted To Me" was (and, for all I know, still is) 7 years my senior. When I indicated a desire for a deeper relationship than friendship, she trotted out an objection based on the age difference--i.e., that she was older. I pointed out that if I was the one 7 years older she probably wouldn't think there was anything odd about it.
To be fair, I think she was using the age thing as a convenient excuse to brush me off.
On the other hand, there was another woman who was only a few years older (3 I think--but I could be wrong). When she rejected me, age never came up.
The most recent woman that I am devoted to (although she shows no signs of being attracted to me despite considering me 'Quite The Nicest Guy Ever™') is 9 years my junior. That age difference never enters any of our discussions.
I think a certain level of age difference does not matter as you get older. What seems a huge difference when you are in your 20s does not seem so important when you are in your 50s. I am now 52 and I would think nothing of being interested in somebody 12 years younger than me. When I was 28, I wouldn't have even considered it...well, not seriously. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
On the other hand, at this time I would still rule out of consideration any woman who was more than 20 years younger than me. I have nieces that age, so it would just freak me out too much.
I am not quite sure what my point is. I guess it is: age difference matters if it matters to you (or to the other person you are interested in).
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
........I think a certain level of age difference does not matter as you get older. What seems a huge difference when you are in your 20s does not seem so important when you are in your 50s. I am now 52 and I would think nothing of being interested in somebody 12 years younger than me. When I was 28, I wouldn't have even considered it...well, not seriously. .
I think that the age difference can become an issue later in life though - my father's 2nd wife is a couple of years older than me and it came as a shock to her when he died.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
It's now been ten days or so since my date. He's replied in kind to the friendly messages I've sent but hasn't initiated anything. I'm thinking I will suggest meeting up again and wait and see what happens. Should I do it or not? Or do something completely different?
I would suggest meeting up again.
Agreed
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Hedgehog,
I am in no way suggesting you change from being 'Quite The Nicest Guy Ever.™' However, you may wish to turn that light down a bit. Needn't turn mean, but roughen the edges up a bit. And do not be overly helpful.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Sorry, should not offer unsolicited advice. To late to delete. Apologies
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
Another thing to bear in mind if you are looking for a long-term relationship: 40 and 60 can look quite different to 60 and 80. A friend's mum married someone significantly older than her, she is now a young retiree while her husband is an elderly man in need of a lot of care. It's very difficult for her.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but worth bearing in mind.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
I think the crucial thing is about age expectation. An uncle married his first wife because she was getting to the age where she needed more looking after and he wanted to do that. She was actually a his friend's mother and had pulled him out of some very difficult circumstances. After she died he met someone about his age and they are now happily married. There might have been romantic love there but there was more than that.
On the other hand I split up from an older boyfriend because he wanted children and with the dynamics of the situation (we were not going to marry immediately) and my age that was never going to be possible. In other words I was too old for what he wanted even though I was younger than him. There were several other things about his imagined future that did not work if you knew me.
So yes age matters, but it is age expectations that matter rather than actual age difference.
Jengie
[ 07. March 2013, 12:03: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Sorry, should not offer unsolicited advice. To late to delete. Apologies
No problem!
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Feeling a bit discouraged this evening as the interesting guy I'd exchanged emails with (another from the Large Dating Site) has gone quiet. This seems to be a pattern: the ones I really like aren't interested, and the ones I'm not interested in fire off winks and emails like there's no tomorrow!
I've been on a few dates with a nice guy (also met through aforementioned dating site). Now at the stage where he seems keener than I am, so I might have to let him down. He's great, but it's the usual thing. I'm just not feeling it.....
I was consoled yesterday by an article in the paper that made me think about the two Significant Lovely Chaps in my life. They are two lovely men who I probably could have married, had there been a sexual attraction. There wasn't, so we have negotiated friendship, and I'm delighted to say that I will be at the wedding of one of them this summer to his beautiful fiancee. Friends have said:"We always hoped you'd get together with......" and I wondered, should I have tried harder? Should I have rejected htis lovely man?? Now look at me, single, with my chance of children pretty much behind me???
But I believe I did the right thing. I wouldn't have loved either of them the way they deserved to be loved. And I would have hated myself for it, and for the pain I would have ultimately caused them.
The other good realisation, which I may have written about before, is that I'm not single because I'm monstrous, but probably mostly because I spent the years from the age of 24 to 39 being more depressed than I realised, and on medication. I don't suppose my libido is what it could be now, but it's better than it was.
All the comments on age gaps are interesting. My late beloved Grandad had a wonderful partner/lady friend who was, I think, about 15 years his junior. ISTM that 10 - 15 years either way is the 'tipping point'. More than that, and the older partner will be elderly when the younger is still of working age. I also wonder how significant the sex aspect would be for me. Hmm.
I said I wasn't going to overthink this didn't I....
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
Feeling a bit discouraged this evening as the interesting guy I'd exchanged emails with (another from the Large Dating Site) has gone quiet. This seems to be a pattern: the ones I really like aren't interested, and the ones I'm not interested in fire off winks and emails like there's no tomorrow!
I've been on a few dates with a nice guy (also met through aforementioned dating site). Now at the stage where he seems keener than I am, so I might have to let him down. He's great, but it's the usual thing. I'm just not feeling it.....
Seems an obvious question I know, but what are you expecting to feel ?
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
Feeling a bit discouraged this evening as the interesting guy I'd exchanged emails with (another from the Large Dating Site) has gone quiet. This seems to be a pattern: the ones I really like aren't interested, and the ones I'm not interested in fire off winks and emails like there's no tomorrow!
I've been on a few dates with a nice guy (also met through aforementioned dating site). Now at the stage where he seems keener than I am, so I might have to let him down. He's great, but it's the usual thing. I'm just not feeling it.....
Seems an obvious question I know, but what are you expecting to feel ?
Attraction.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
In fact, I don't really go on dates with any expectations as such, but I'm looking for attraction. If it's not there by date three, I don't think I should keep stringing the guy along.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
So I was arranging a meetup with the guy from SCM in the Easter holidays. All fine...and then he asks who else we should invite I agree to invite others because I don't want to be difficult. And then when he signed off facebook he called me 'buddy'. BUDDY.
On a brighter note, I came out to my little Christian group at uni (not CU - shit would hit the fan) and everyone was fine and didn't bat an eyelid
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
Don't write the situation off just yet. A few months before my first proper date with my boyfriend he sort of invited me out for a drink after dance class and when I realised it was just going to be the two of us I sort of panicked Miranda style and invited someone else along (who I barely knew). Even though I liked him. Even on our first actual date, there was sufficient ambiguity that I wasn't sure if it was just going to be the two of us until I turned up! So see how it goes!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I agree with Hazey Jane, and congratulate you on coming out to your peeps at Uni--the more you let the people around you see your full and honest self, the more there is to love and connect with.
Birthday eve in monkeyland (I am, er, turning a little more than 1.5 Jade Constables). Feeling a bit mopey--I know it's just a number, but the thing about numbers is we measure stuff with them.
The last year was huge for me, in terms of taking risks and being open and really examining what I want and can be, relationship-wise. I am putting it out there to the universe that I'm ready, this year, to keep moving forward.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
The other way of reading it, is he is asking "Who would you like as gooseberry?"
Jengie
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
So I was arranging a meetup with the guy from SCM in the Easter holidays. All fine...and then he asks who else we should invite
Another interpretation is that he was giving you the opportunity to clarify whether this was a date or just a meet up as friends. He might be sitting there now thinking 'Darn, she *does* want other people there. She's obviously not that into me. '
This is one thing in favour of internet dating - at least both parties know if it's a date or not!
Just go along with other people there and monopolise his time/attention while there. That might give off the right signal.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Well it looks like there's only going to be one other person there, and it's someone who can read situations well so hopefully I can work with the situation! In any case, it'll be a fun day so I may as well enjoy myself.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Yay! Have fun
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
I'm excited about the plans emerging for the trip to a friend's wedding. It's going to be a lovely get-together.
The FB message from my friend was to me and four of the other girls..... I'm the only one without children. It's probably too late now.
I've been fretting over self-pity, as I don't want to be self-pitying. It's loathsome. I don't think it's wrong to be sad about it though, although many would tell me to be grateful for the life I have.
I'm grateful for the life I have. It's a good life. I don't understand how any of it happened, but then, I don't think anyone does.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
^ Amen.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
Good news!! Science has solved a question we were kicking around earlier: what is the proper age gap in a relationship? According to a exhaustive survey of 2000 people, the answer is....four years and four months!
And, as I said, this survey was of 2000 people, so you know it must be applicable world-wide regardless of race, creed or social stratum. While it appears to be aimed at "mixed" couples (one woman, one man), I imagine it is equally applicable to single-gender couples. After all, 2000 people can't be wrong!
[Oh. Sorry. My sarcasm switch got stuck. I've been meaning to have it repaired.]
Posted by Michael Snow (# 16363) on
:
In honor of this thread's title:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/mikesnow/drwhoT.png
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
I thought it might be a good step towards healing to join this thread. I belonged to it 2 years ago, right before I met my current ex (who just left me).
I hope it's okay to put this here but I just wanted to say it made it extra hard on me that he left me 5 days before our 2nd year anniversary, which would have been March 26th.
I have a big mess to clean up (my place has stuff strewn across everywhere). In my pain, I have joyfully experienced so much support. My boss let me only work a few hours yesterday as I was not capable of doing much (my ex took off with his stuff while I was at work Thursday, 3/21. I found out when I sent him a voicetext msg on an android app we use and got a msg back "I didn't know how to tell you this, but [my step-dad] got me an offer on a job out of state and I had to take it...].) The neighbor 3 feet from me across the hall has offered to help me organize this heap.
I have a lot of people to call.
I was in much, much pain Thursday after receiving that voicemail text. I literally had a huge anxiety attack that lasted 30 seconds. After that, I jumped out of my car, started to walk around and called a friend to help me calm down. I got back into my car and drove home. It was the longest drive ever. Tons of traffic. I got home and saw the mess. It was horrible.
Since then, I forced myself to go to work yesterday a few hours. I felt that I would dread coming in on Monday. I did one email that took a lot of work (offering a deal to someone in sales), a few calls and then when I felt myself close to breaking down in tears again, I left.
I went out to eat with some hip neighbors in their 50s-70s. the youngest one in our little neighbor group is the 70 something year old. She looks 50. She dresses like a teen and wants to go dancing. She dyes her hair black and gets hit on by 50 year old guys. I may go dancing with her. After we ate at a Japanese restaurant near here, we got an ice cream cake at Bask N Robbins, which we took to her place and ate. I showed them the mess my ex left and they were shocked, they all know him. He was obviously in a hurry.
I found a dippy lovestruck card I gave the ex Xmas 2011. He had left it here in some candy box in the middle of the table. I was finally angry. I realized he just didn't feel the same way I did. That is why no matter how hard I tried, it didn't help. He is depressed and out of work since Oct. 2011. There were so many problems.
So finally, I slept well last night, the 2nd night after the break-up. I got up this morning and my appetite was back. I ate the rest of my udon. Made myself a cup of coffee (the ex used to make me coffee every morning and I was missing that, so good for me yay). I am watching one episode of Big Bang Theory and then will eventually go to my hair appt.
I have 2 walking buddies, one is a guy I knew in highschool that lives a block from here it turns out. The other is my downstairs neighbor. Lucky me! I have a full social life without even trying much. I am going to try a new church with my old church friends (from a church we all went to), their new church. I have a passover dinner I can go with my sister in law to at the old UCC church I grew up at. My dance card is pretty full.
With middle age, comes the wisdom finally to realize I don't need a man to complete me. I am fine alone. Inside of myself in the broken relationship I was in where I was, I yearned to be alone if I am truthful. I had a loneliness that I ignored from having a man around who just couldn't love me the way I wanted to be love. To be fair, he may have felt the same way. His daughter lived with us for 8 months. I felt secretly sometimes she was all that was holding us together. Well, it turns out after she went back to her mother's 2 Saturdays ago, he got busy cleaning out his storage and in stealth mode, planning a road trip to Arizona to his parents house.
I feel a bit better now. I know each day will bring more healing. And I can wait to date again. (Not that I have a bevy of men at my door). I am honestly not ready to date. I just don't know when I will be. But that's okay. I can take it one day at a time.
[edited because I'm full of awesomeness.]
[ 23. March 2013, 16:39: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on
:
Sheesh, it never ceases to amaze me what utter fuckwits are out there. Love'n'prayers, duchess
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Originally posted by dutchess:
quote:
With middle age, comes the wisdom finally to realize I don't need a man to complete me.
I think we do ourselves, and others, a disservice when we seek companionship to fill a void. We are at our best, both to ourselves and to potential partners, when we are complete within ourselves.
This does nothing to help your pain, for that I feel for you. You are better for the change, it just takes time to see.
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
I have a big mess to clean up (my place has stuff strewn across everywhere).
...
Well, it turns out after she went back to her mother's 2 Saturdays ago, he got busy cleaning out his storage and in stealth mode, planning a road trip to Arizona to his parents house.
What a GIANT ASS. He had two weeks to plan and he *still* left the house in a mess? The cowardly, inconsiderate, low-down snake in the grass.
((hugs)) Best wishes for the hurt to keep getting better.
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
:
(((Duchess))) I echo what everyone else has said. I'm so glad you have a good network around you. May you find strength, even on any wobbly times you might find yourself in. You are taking such a positive attitude - go girl!
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Thanks everybody. He's still on my google latitude so I see that he is still on his road trip. He left Arizona a few hours ago and is still moving onward on a HWY. I have a feeling I know where he is going since he had made a remark in the fall 2012 that he should move to a particular state where there was a job his step-dad could get him. We'll see if that is where he lands. I am not talking to him outside of a few texts to find out where some things were. I have the feeling one day he'll be remorseful of certain things, I have talked enough to him in the past to know I know all I need to know.
Thanks again for the support guys/gals.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...We are at our best, both to ourselves and to potential partners, when we are complete within ourselves...
Amen to that!
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
[edited because I'm full of awesomeness.]
Hang on to that thought and try and remember how amazing you are when the situation is getting you down.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
I'm sorry to hear this, duchess; but I'm loving your can-do attitude.
Nen - suffering from can't-do at the moment.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Thanks guys. Especially when I take 1 step forward and 2 steps back. I try to be positive but I still get some blue periods. I am 72 hours from the break-up and I am feeling a bit more helpful. I gave myself 5 days to eat whatever I want. I hope I don't keep this up.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Of course you're still having blue periods, Duchess--you're still processing a huge shock. I wish you all the best as you heal from this, which I know you will--stronger in the hurty places, like we always get.
Can folks tell the story of how they move on? I can't speak for Duchess, but I know it'd help me.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
I would like to hear how you all move on. I have been through a lot of break ups but I like to hear new helpful things.
I am talking to a ton of people, lots of people are praying for me, which helps.
I still communicate with the ex but it's all "where is the laundry key?" Last email was "when does your insurance start" for his new job as I want to take him off my domestic partner insurance but he has has some health issues and I want to make sure he is covered as I still care what happens to him. It doesn't cost me anything but he should come off of that, I know.
Things don't make sense, but he's a broken man not dealing with his over-eating of sweets, health issues (I won't go into for privacy reasons here), emotional issues are not dealt with...so I guess he is thoughtless as he doesn't check in with people on having any manners, feedback. Maybe he does? I don't know. But I expect he doesn't. In any event, I need to move on and heal.
Going to bed now. Thank you for letting me hijack the thread with my broken heart. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
I'm doing fine, I didn't meant to kill this thread. Keep calm and carry on!
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
I've been meaning to post to say that you hadn't hijacked the thread at all! That's what it's for.
Alas, w*rk things took over my brain and I've not had posting time.
Incidentally, the asking for another date I mentioned up-thread was successful. He's really quite disorganised though, so I'm struggling a bit to tell the difference between not getting back to me because he's not organised, and not getting back to me because he doesn't want to see me. I'm guessing the former, otherwise we wouldn't be spending about 4 hours together every time we see each other, I'm just a bit neurotic!
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
It's been my experience that if somebody is really over the moon about you, you shall see them lots. If they are stuck in the office, then they'll text and email you a lot. If somebody enjoys their time with you and is non-committal, then they will let you do all the reaching out. I can not say what is in in this case, all I can say is what I generally see.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
In fact, I don't really go on dates with any expectations as such, but I'm looking for attraction. If it's not there by date three, I don't think I should keep stringing the guy along.
For me, I don't think any friendship has developed to "I really like this person" in just three meetings.
If there are activities you both enjoy and welcome companionship doing, how is it stringing along to call up and say "I'm going to the play/fest/game/museum Saturday, wanna come along?"
But then, I figure I can use more friends. If one turns into romance, fine, but friendship is good too, and all that takes is a mutual interest, a tolerable personality, and some schedule compatibility.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
In one of the Tales of the City books Mona says to Mouse something like that she'd rather have five good friends than have a lover - I think she has a point.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
In fact, I don't really go on dates with any expectations as such, but I'm looking for attraction. If it's not there by date three, I don't think I should keep stringing the guy along.
For me, I don't think any friendship has developed to "I really like this person" in just three meetings.
If there are activities you both enjoy and welcome companionship doing, how is it stringing along to call up and say "I'm going to the play/fest/game/museum Saturday, wanna come along?"
But then, I figure I can use more friends. If one turns into romance, fine, but friendship is good too, and all that takes is a mutual interest, a tolerable personality, and some schedule compatibility.
Based on just a few observations and anecdotes (with maybe a little supporting evolutionary theory), as a generalisation I think men sometimes get to the point of being attracted a little earlier than women do.
I do think it's probably possible to definitely rule someone out within a few dates. But harder to know whether to rule them in. Friendships gained in the interim can be a blessing, albeit preferably not where one party is massively more attracted than the other.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
I know I said I am not looking...so guess what!
Well, I have this old high school friend. let's call him Blond Elvis, because he's blond and loves Elvis and I am too lazy to think of a great nickname. He keeps coming around. I am not sure if this is the right thing, but he's putting ZERO pressure on me and is just being a friend. But he keeps coming around. If you want to know more, read my blog (PM me for the link as I not putting that link up in public anymore). He's hawt. I don't have to try at all to be attracted to him, I very much am. But we shall see. It's too soon.
PS: my facebook has him there if you are looking, you'll see him. sshhhh!
[edited thank you...thank you very much]
[ 04. April 2013, 03:14: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
Always remember: the best revenge is to live well. Toss out the green willow and party, I say.
Posted by Adrienne (# 2334) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Always remember: the best revenge is to live well. Toss out the green willow and party, I say.
Preach it sister - from just such comes my current sig line!
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
I appreciate the sentiment, but that song has been stuck in my head ever since I foolishly played it!
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
It would seem that the disorganised man isn't just disorganised, but also not interested. A message suggesting meeting up this weekend has gone unanswered, despite him saying we should meet up again last time I saw him. I'm trying very hard to think that it's his loss, and it was all very early days, but I did really like him and now I feel quite bad about myself. Stupid, I know, I just wanted to whinge.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Ah nuts! It's so hard for us not to get down on ourselves in situations like that. I always get stuck on an unrealistic idea of how lovely things
would have been, and then I mentally pull everything to pieces wondering how I messed up to prevent this perfect outcome.
Two logical fallacies in that, though.
One, there's no flipping way to know how things "would have been'. The most reasonable conclusion, honestly, is that they would have continued to be unbalanced and challenging. Folks feel stuff, or they don't, and things work well when the level of feel-stuff is similar.
Two, the idea that it's "I messed up" is a bit silly. I am privy to my own challenges and insecurities and history and quirks and poor decisions: I know a lot less about the other person's. But the other person is acting from his as well--none of that is about or caused by me, but all of that's in play.
Just my random thoughts, more or less designed to say...it sucks. I feel yah.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
It would seem that the disorganised man isn't just disorganised, but also not interested. A message suggesting meeting up this weekend has gone unanswered, despite him saying we should meet up again last time I saw him. I'm trying very hard to think that it's his loss, and it was all very early days, but I did really like him and now I feel quite bad about myself. Stupid, I know, I just wanted to whinge.
Bummer.
The way I deal with knock backs is to think: well, I tried that and it didn't work, so now I put it aside, and - hurray - I have nothing standing between me and the person I'm going to meet who I like and who really likes me back. Yas.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
In fact, I don't really go on dates with any expectations as such, but I'm looking for attraction. If it's not there by date three, I don't think I should keep stringing the guy along.
For me, I don't think any friendship has developed to "I really like this person" in just three meetings.
If there are activities you both enjoy and welcome companionship doing, how is it stringing along to call up and say "I'm going to the play/fest/game/museum Saturday, wanna come along?"
But then, I figure I can use more friends. If one turns into romance, fine, but friendship is good too, and all that takes is a mutual interest, a tolerable personality, and some schedule compatibility.
I'm not talking about friendship though, but attraction. I think attraction can lie unnoticed for a long time ("Why, Mr Jones - you're beautiful!") However, I'm going on dating website dates, so I'm actively thinking to myself, am I attracted to this person?
I've done 'let's be friends' with various dates. One of them gave me what is still the best Christmas present I've ever received: an Arvo Part CD and a DVD of Wallace and Gromit Curse of the Were-rabbit. Man, I wish I'd fancied him.....
However, it depends on the other person being interested in being your friend.
[edited because of brain-fart]
[ 07. April 2013, 00:36: Message edited by: Mad Cat ]
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I've done 'let's be friends' with various dates. One of them gave me what is still the best Christmas present I've ever received: an Arvo Part CD and a DVD of Wallace and Gromit Curse of the Were-rabbit. Man, I wish I'd fancied him.....
Yes. See, I am that shoe on that other foot. I love my Penelope and do lots for her. And I suspect she often thinks "Man, I wish I fancied him..." But she doesn't. And I know that. And it doesn't change how I feel about her. I love her and want her to be happy. And being with me doesn't make her happy--or at least, not the way she wants to be happy. So I go on being her friend, even though I know it won't develop into anything else. Because when she smiles at me when I do something to make her happy, it is better than anything I have had without her.
If that doesn't make sense, be advised that I am two bourbons into the evening. Sense is optional.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
...If that doesn't make sense, be advised that I am two bourbons into the evening. Sense is optional.
Quotes file!
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I've done 'let's be friends' with various dates. One of them gave me what is still the best Christmas present I've ever received: an Arvo Part CD and a DVD of Wallace and Gromit Curse of the Were-rabbit. Man, I wish I'd fancied him.....
Yes. See, I am that shoe on that other foot. I love my Penelope and do lots for her. And I suspect she often thinks "Man, I wish I fancied him..." But she doesn't. And I know that. And it doesn't change how I feel about her. I love her and want her to be happy. And being with me doesn't make her happy--or at least, not the way she wants to be happy. So I go on being her friend, even though I know it won't develop into anything else. Because when she smiles at me when I do something to make her happy, it is better than anything I have had without her.
To love, and be loved, like that is wonderful. Bourbons notwithstanding.
Nen - whose old heart has been done good by your post.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Mad Cat and Hedgehog,
I would suggest, from my personal observations, that the nice is possibly an integral part of the like but not like.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
I've done 'let's be friends' with various dates. One of them gave me what is still the best Christmas present I've ever received: an Arvo Part CD and a DVD of Wallace and Gromit Curse of the Were-rabbit. Man, I wish I'd fancied him.....
Yes. See, I am that shoe on that other foot. I love my Penelope and do lots for her. And I suspect she often thinks "Man, I wish I fancied him..." But she doesn't. And I know that. And it doesn't change how I feel about her. I love her and want her to be happy. And being with me doesn't make her happy--or at least, not the way she wants to be happy. So I go on being her friend, even though I know it won't develop into anything else. Because when she smiles at me when I do something to make her happy, it is better than anything I have had without her.
If that doesn't make sense, be advised that I am two bourbons into the evening. Sense is optional.
I'll second that, with my glass of red.....
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I love my Penelope and do lots for her. And I suspect she often thinks "Man, I wish I fancied him..." But she doesn't. And I know that. And it doesn't change how I feel about her. I love her and want her to be happy. And being with me doesn't make her happy--or at least, not the way she wants to be happy. So I go on being her friend, even though I know it won't develop into anything else. Because when she smiles at me when I do something to make her happy, it is better than anything I have had without her.
I am on both sides of this - men I'm attracted to who will forever see me as a confidante and best buddy (but never anything else) and men who I know love me but I have absolutely no attraction to but whom I otherwise love and adore.
and I look at my life and think - it's full. I'm surrounded by lovely people. My boys are surrounded by "uncles" who are shining examples of good manhood. and maybe that's enough.
Do I accept where things are now and just get on with living? Do I "settle" and have a relationship with a man (one in particular comes to mind) who is the best of all men, who will make an amazing husband and stepdad, but whom I'm not attracted to at all?
is that even fair to him?
I'm moving to a new town. I'm fairly sure if I asked, he would drop everything and come with, to join me and my family as partner. and it would be a good life. comfortable. even happy. But he's in my heart as a brother and best friend. I don't think I could ever honestly give him more.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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Bummer, isn't it? But you know what you have to do (bring up mental picture of Garbo as Queen Christina standing in prow of ship, Renouncing like anything).
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
For me, I don't think any friendship has developed to "I really like this person" in just three meetings.
I've had a few - verey few, maybe half a dozen in fifty years at the most - friendships that got to "I really like this person" in about thrirty seconds. Both with women and men. But that's not about sex.
Sexual attraction on the other hand is usually fast. Maybe that's men. We tend to either fancy someone or we don't. But then we often find lots and lots and lots of people sexually attractive. (For me as I said before it is I guess about half of all the youngish women I meet) so in a way whether a man finds a woman sexually attractive is a lot less important to finding a relationship than the other way round
[ 08. April 2013, 17:54: Message edited by: ken ]
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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I didn't finish that... even thoug I've said similar things before. Possibly on this very thread.
Its what Comet and Hedgehog said. I think typically - not always but often - men have the problem of knowing a woman they fancy, maybe lots of people they fancy, but not getting the same thing back. Women are more likely to have no-one they are actually attracted to (or at any rate no-one reachable, no-one actually in their lives - we don't count rockstars and other people's husbands)
So a man is nmore likely to have the problem of knowing women who wnat to be their friends, but no more. And a woman's problem is more likely (more likely, more often, not all the time of course) to be men who they are perfectly happy with as frieinds but don't fancy sexually.
Which is what I meant by a wonan's fancying a man being typically more impiortant to forming a new relationship than the other way round. Because if she fancies him there is quite a good chance that it will be reciprocated, boit the reverse isn't true. (On the whole, on average, commonly, with a great many exceptions)
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Which is what I meant by a wonan's fancying a man being typically more impiortant to forming a new relationship than the other way round. Because if she fancies him there is quite a good chance that it will be reciprocated, boit the reverse isn't true. (On the whole, on average, commonly, with a great many exceptions)
So when they don't call you back, they really don't fancy you then? Oh...
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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As a woman, I've honestly known more men who want to be my friend but no more. I don't know why that is. It is frustrating and I do empathise with men in the same situation.
This Sunday I met up with some Student Christian Movement friends, including the guy I have posted about. I had a really great time but I wish I wasn't so attracted to him! I know there's no reason that things couldn't develop, and nothing happened on Sunday to make me think he's definitely not interested, but it is frustrating. Him texting me poetry = not helping me keep my feelings for him in check.
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
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Him texting you poetry? And this is not significant?
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
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quote:
Originally posted by comet:
is that even fair to him?
I'm moving to a new town. I'm fairly sure if I asked, he would drop everything and come with, to join me and my family as partner. and it would be a good life. comfortable. even happy. But he's in my heart as a brother and best friend. I don't think I could ever honestly give him more.
Amongst the problems are these.
I shall speak only for myself because different situations are different. One of the things I adore about my Penelope (not her real name, in case anybody was worrying) is that she is very careful not to mislead me. She will frequently tell me that I am "amazingly special," "immeasurably wonderful," and "absolutely incredible." She will assure me that she is "the most fortunate person" to have me in her life and has "such joy and thankfulness" for me. She once even went so far as to say that she will "always have a special place in my heart that is all yours." [All of the above are from text messages she has sent me that I preserve because they make me feel wonderful.]
But notice that she is very careful never to say that she loves me. That is what I mean about not misleading me. I know that she treasures me. I know that it does not extend to seeing me as a romantic partner.
Now to bring this back to your situation. Some years back there was a chance that Penelope might move to Florida. But she would never suggest that I come be with her as a partner, because that wouldn't be honest with me. She'd be lying and then the situation would transform into her "using" me. She won't do that because she cares too much for me to do that. It is just another thing that I love about her.
So, in answer to your question, from my perspective only: no, it wouldn't be fair to him. But, like I said, different situations are different. I am not him. His mileage may well vary.
[And for those who want an end to a story: As it so happens, Penelope decided not to go to Florida and has since declared that she no longer has any intention of going elsewhere--which delights me to no end.]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
Him texting you poetry? And this is not significant?
I don't think so, we'd all just bought books before going to the pub and we were looking through the poetry book in question in the pub together. It was Sylvia Plath so not exactly a romance fest! And he called me mate when we met up for the day - that's clear friends-only territory for me, although maybe not. I don't know, that's the point! I haven't texted him back since the poetry, mostly due to running out of credit but also I just don't know what to say.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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Jade:
You "don't know what to say"???
Try this:
I enjoyed the pub the other day - fancy meeting up for another pint?
The worst that can happen is that he says no!
Also, try someone other than Sylvia Plath - deeply depressing and, in my experience, a bit of a turn-off for most men. Try Dylan Thomas - all that Celtic passion - and the p**s take at the BBC (spell the name of the village backwards...)
Good luck
[ 10. April 2013, 16:48: Message edited by: L'organist ]
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
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The last few posts have brought home to me how little I understand this subject. Thinking that someone is amazingly special, would make a great husband/wife, that life with them would be happy, is what I would call a description of finding someone attractive. If I said that I found someone attractive, that is exactly what I would mean. So the fact that people can feel this and at the same time say that they are not attracted to the person at all makes me realise that there is something here that is entirely mysterious to me.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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Info.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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(I am of the view that Sternberg's model is a decent approximation to reality.)
Posted by Dinghy Sailor (# 8507) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
Him texting you poetry? And this is not significant?
I don't think so, we'd all just bought books before going to the pub and we were looking through the poetry book in question in the pub together. It was Sylvia Plath so not exactly a romance fest! And he called me mate when we met up for the day - that's clear friends-only territory for me, although maybe not. I don't know, that's the point! I haven't texted him back since the poetry, mostly due to running out of credit but also I just don't know what to say.
I'm hardly Dr Love, but ...
The first signals he sends you* are likely to be rather vague, of the sort that he can step back from if he doesn't get a response - the sort that don't commit him, because he was only texting you Sylvia Plath, not doing something unambiguous like declaring his undying love. If he doesn't get a response, he may try a few more signals and he may try upping the volume a bit, but will desist before he decides he's embarrassing himself or becoming creepy.
That means that you now need to send a signal back. It can be something that is likewise a bit ambiguous at first, that allows you to retreat if you've misinterpreted him. If, however, he is trying to pursue you, he'll pick it up and he'll then have the confidence to try a louder, less ambiguous signal next time.
*especially if he's a geeky SCM type
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Jade:
You "don't know what to say"???
Try this:
I enjoyed the pub the other day - fancy meeting up for another pint?
The worst that can happen is that he says no!
Also, try someone other than Sylvia Plath - deeply depressing and, in my experience, a bit of a turn-off for most men. Try Dylan Thomas - all that Celtic passion - and the p**s take at the BBC (spell the name of the village backwards...)
Good luck
We can't - he's gone back to Aberystwyth (he's at uni there) to do dissertation work. We're both from Coventry but he mostly lives in Aberystwyth and I'm mostly in Northampton, and at the moment with my parents in Hampshire where they now live. And it was he who texted me the Sylvia Plath, so I don't think it's too much of a turn-off for him. I'm afraid I'm not much of a poetry person.
The poetry he texted me was about trees being 'memories growing, ring on ring/like a series of weddings'.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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What a beautiful line!
How about you text him back to say it's a beautiful image, and to compliment him on his righteous cultural chops.
Everyone can use a compliment now and then.....
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Oh I did text him back saying it was lovely, and we texted a little more about Donne, but then I sent a general 'how are you' text and no reply!
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
<snip>...... Thinking that someone is amazingly special, would make a great husband/wife, that life with them would be happy, is what I would call a description of finding someone attractive. ......<snip>
On one level, the list you made is of the 'head' reasons for being with someone. They should never be overlooked. But I was given a good piece of advice, which was that you should be with someone who Rings. Your. Bell. I won't attempt to explain that any further. Not on a webite. We'll get into trouble.
The reason you should look for the Bell Ringing quality as part of the rest of the 'Head' stuff, is that if that guy doesn't have it with that you, one day, you'll meet someone who does.
(Note: I'm not talking here about the normal difficulties and temptations that pretty much every couple will face and overcome if they stay together.)
As I think I said upthread, I have a friend who I wish I could have married. He's attractive, but he's not for me. I could have married him and we could have lived as husband and wife, but I would have been holding something back from him. It would never have worked. He's met someone now, and I trust he rings her bell. That's what I want for him, and for me.
Prolly still doesn't make any sense. Prolly a good thing!
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
Him texting you poetry? And this is not significant?
Poetry? That's extreme!
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
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thinking of that disco song, you can ring my bell now.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
<snip>...... Thinking that someone is amazingly special, would make a great husband/wife, that life with them would be happy, is what I would call a description of finding someone attractive. ......<snip>
On one level, the list you made is of the 'head' reasons for being with someone. They should never be overlooked. But I was given a good piece of advice, which was that you should be with someone who Rings. Your. Bell. I won't attempt to explain that any further. Not on a webite. We'll get into trouble.
The reason you should look for the Bell Ringing quality as part of the rest of the 'Head' stuff, is that if that guy doesn't have it with that you, one day, you'll meet someone who does.
(Note: I'm not talking here about the normal difficulties and temptations that pretty much every couple will face and overcome if they stay together.)
As I think I said upthread, I have a friend who I wish I could have married. He's attractive, but he's not for me. I could have married him and we could have lived as husband and wife, but I would have been holding something back from him. It would never have worked. He's met someone now, and I trust he rings her bell. That's what I want for him, and for me.
Prolly still doesn't make any sense. Prolly a good thing!
Makes sense to me. Attraction isn't a sufficient word for all the different ways we can feel about people. There are many kinds of physical, mental and spiritual attraction. I guess we all hope to find the person who matches the highest number (plus an indefineable something), doesn't mean that we don't meet people all the time who match one or two.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
<snip>...... Thinking that someone is amazingly special, would make a great husband/wife, that life with them would be happy, is what I would call a description of finding someone attractive. ......<snip>
On one level, the list you made is of the 'head' reasons for being with someone. They should never be overlooked. But I was given a good piece of advice, which was that you should be with someone who Rings. Your. Bell. I won't attempt to explain that any further. Not on a webite. We'll get into trouble.
The reason you should look for the Bell Ringing quality as part of the rest of the 'Head' stuff, is that if that guy doesn't have it with that you, one day, you'll meet someone who does.
(Note: I'm not talking here about the normal difficulties and temptations that pretty much every couple will face and overcome if they stay together.)
As I think I said upthread, I have a friend who I wish I could have married. He's attractive, but he's not for me. I could have married him and we could have lived as husband and wife, but I would have been holding something back from him. It would never have worked. He's met someone now, and I trust he rings her bell. That's what I want for him, and for me.
Prolly still doesn't make any sense. Prolly a good thing!
Agreed - but of course, then you meet people who Ring Your Bell but don't meet any of the Head stuff!
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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Is it fair to expect one person to fulfill all your requirements? What is wrong with having a number of people fulfilling different aspects?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Is it fair to expect one person to fulfill all your requirements? What is wrong with having a number of people fulfilling different aspects?
Oh there's nothing wrong with that - I'm talking about when NONE of the head stuff is there! And then there are people who Ring Your Bell but you don't ring theirs - just general romantic frustrations
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on
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It would be interesting to hear the thoughts of people who have had their marriage arranged for them and then found love for each other within the marriage.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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We knew a Muslim couple who had their marriage arranged and did not meet until after they were married. This happened abroad. (We knew them when they were here for 3 years while the husband did his PhD and they then returned to their home country.)
Their marriage had been arranged by their families on the strength of the fact that the husband was good friends with his wife to be's brother, and the wife had been friendly with her future groom's sisters at school.
According to them, there were clearly understood roles for husband and wife - both married knowing what was expected of them. When we knew them they appeared very much in love, so it had clearly worked for them, but they said that even for couples who don't "fall in love" both would understand the cultural norms which, if followed, would result in a successful marriage.
The whole marriage functioned within a wider community - because of the segregation of male and female in their home country, it was important for each to get on well with the other's relatives - a wife would expect to spend time with her female in-laws and a husband with his male in-laws so those relationships were important, too.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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I guess it depends what it means by a successful marriage. I don't think I could consider a marriage where I didn't romantically love my spouse to be a success, no matter how much affection and companionship there was.
Posted by Jenn. (# 5239) on
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romance comes and goes in intensity during some(most?) relationships (as far as I am aware), so probably not good to make it a foolproof test surely?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Oh I meant marriages where there's no romance whatsoever. And it probably isn't a foolproof definition but tied up with the western idea about what marriage and relationships mean.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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Do you mean romance or sexual attraction ?
I have always liked this poem as an example of less dramatic love:
This is not Love, perhaps,
Love that lays down its life,
that many waters cannot quench,
nor the floods drown,
But something written in lighter ink,
said in a lower tone, something, perhaps, especially our own.
[coding]
[ 13. April 2013, 03:31: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
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I have told before, maybe even earlier on this thread of my uncles first marriage or how it was explained to me.
My uncle when he was at University sewed some wild oats, including if I recall correctly drinking too much. A friends mother helped him at the time and gave him the support he needed to regain his equilibrium. A while later she became ill, and he married her in order to take care of her in her illness.
I can't say there was not sexual attraction but it is not mentioned in the story I was told. Yet they remained faithful to each other until her death. He married fairly soon afterwards someone of his own age who had helped nurse his wife through her last illness.
What I will say is if there is no sexual attraction but it is built on shall we say firmer foundations, you do need to watch out for sexual attraction if it strikes as its glitziness can be very distracting.
Jengie
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Love is not found, love develops, it grows.
What is found is attraction, and this can be good.
What is found is attraction, and this can be bad.
If one never finds the right partner, the problem might not be in the selection available.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
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The ex did not ring my bell and I don't think I rang his. Now that I am getting closer to a month past the break up time, I can say I look back and realize I really WANT this bell-ringing. I know a man who rings my bell so much I am staying away from him even though he lives 2 blocks away from me, as he is unsuitable. But he and I email everyday. It's a weird and wonderful way to assess things. Whenever I see him, I fall to pieces and then hide it for fear if he knows, a fire will overcome us and my fire insurance will not cover the damages.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Love is not found, love develops, it grows.
What is found is attraction, and this can be good.
What is found is attraction, and this can be bad.
If one never finds the right partner, the problem might not be in the selection available.
I think people assume I'm single because I'm too fussy. I don't think that's the case. I think I haven't found anyone because:
1. I broke up with my boyfriend when I moved to Glasgow in my mid-20s, and then I was too ill with ME to get out dating for the rest of that decade;
2. In my early 30s I ended up dealing with bullying at work, had to move to a new town, and was somewhat distracted;
3. By my late 30s and early 40s it's appreciable harder to meet someone as most people are partnered up;
4. During this time I have been living with depression to various degrees.
So you're right. It's not about the selection available.
I think there's a clear distinction in the thread about where people are talking about attraction and where they are talking about love. I think I certainly know the difference. I love people I'm not attracted to, and equally, I'm attracted to people I don't love.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Yeah, depression and dating don't really go together. I have texted the guy suggesting we meet in the summer once he's done with the dissertation (May-ish I guess?), since I'll be in Northampton and he'll be in Aberystwyth until then, and accompanied the request with an appropriate bit of William Blake. No reply yet but hey ho.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Yay! Here's hoping....
And you gave it a go. That's the important thing. It's courageous. And you won't sit there wondering "What if..?"
If there's no reply? Ah well. Next....!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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He replied! He quoted Donne's The Sun Rising at me and then said that there was only one Donne poem he should recite by heart so we should teach each other. If that isn't flirting I don't know what is! So I replied with a bit of Spring from Rapture by Carol Ann Duffy.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
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How long should somebody wait to date again after I break up? It's been almost a month since the ex left and I don't feel any closer to being ready to date again. I am though not in as nearly as much pain as I was the first week...oh those first 3 days were the worst.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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There's no time-table. Just don't push yourself.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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The right time to do it is when you, within yourself, feel like you want to. Not "feel like you should", not "feel like the people you know would have gotten on with this by now"...feel like you, yourself, actively want to.
I know people who got into another relationship a week after the first one ended. I know people who have gone 5+ years between. I'm just now back in the water after something that wasn't even actually a relationship didn't exactly even end 8 months ago. I reckon we all figure it out.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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In the meantime, maybe a NoCal Girl's Night Out is in order.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
Jade Constable: He quoted Donne's The Sun Rising at me and then said that there was only one Donne poem he should recite by heart so we should teach each other. If that isn't flirting I don't know what is!
I would say so. Good luck!
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
He replied! He quoted Donne's The Sun Rising at me and then said that there was only one Donne poem he should recite by heart so we should teach each other. If that isn't flirting I don't know what is! So I replied with a bit of Spring from Rapture by Carol Ann Duffy.
Yas.
[high-fives JadeConstable]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Is making references to country matters going too far?
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
He replied! He quoted Donne's The Sun Rising at me and then said that there was only one Donne poem he should recite by heart so we should teach each other. If that isn't flirting I don't know what is! So I replied with a bit of Spring from Rapture by Carol Ann Duffy.
That's excellent. I aspire one day to flirt via literature.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
He replied! He quoted Donne's The Sun Rising at me and then said that there was only one Donne poem he should recite by heart so we should teach each other. If that isn't flirting I don't know what is! So I replied with a bit of Spring from Rapture by Carol Ann Duffy.
That's excellent. I aspire one day to flirt via literature.
Quite! All this time I thought that was something that only Lord Peter Wimsey & Harriet Vane did. To learn that real people do it also is just too thrilling for words! Thank you for sharing Jade C!
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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I want to flirt via literature! I will, however, settle for having gone to hear Rob Bell speak this evening and ending up sitting behind my disorganised date, utterly by coincidence. I was a bit freaked out by that, but at the end I tapped him on the shoulder and said hi. Turns out it wasn't me, it was a whole host of other things going on where life fell apart a bit. Hopefully we're going to catch up this weekend - he was really apologetic and does really seem to want to see me.
I'm immensely pleased about this .
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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More good news! Yay!!
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
I want to flirt via literature! I will, however, settle for having gone to hear Rob Bell speak this evening and ending up sitting behind my disorganised date, utterly by coincidence. I was a bit freaked out by that, but at the end I tapped him on the shoulder and said hi. Turns out it wasn't me, it was a whole host of other things going on where life fell apart a bit. Hopefully we're going to catch up this weekend - he was really apologetic and does really seem to want to see me.
Life lesson there. It took me many years before I realized that, if I try something new and don't like it the first time, give it a second try. It is possible that the first time was just a fluke bad. And it would be a terrible shame to miss out on something good because of a bad first experience.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
I want to flirt via literature! I will, however, settle for having gone to hear Rob Bell speak this evening and ending up sitting behind my disorganised date, utterly by coincidence. I was a bit freaked out by that, but at the end I tapped him on the shoulder and said hi. Turns out it wasn't me, it was a whole host of other things going on where life fell apart a bit. Hopefully we're going to catch up this weekend - he was really apologetic and does really seem to want to see me.
I'm immensely pleased about this .
Hooray! And very jealous of you getting to hear Rob Bell speak.
I am slightly nervous of my potential thing being long-distance - he will hopefully be in Leeds for his PGCE next academic year, which is less of a pain to get to from Northampton than Aberystwyth is but still, I had hoped that my first relationship (if it happens!) would be rather less expensive in terms of train fares and cramming all our time together (not to mention the sex...) into odd weekends and holidays.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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What I found when I had a long distance relationship was that we made sure the times we were together were really, REALLY special.
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
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I know this is an old fashioned point of view but I was thinking of writing it even before Scots Lass's latest update. I think there's a lot to be said for speaking to someone rather than sending them a message and wondering why they don't reply to it. At least that way you'll usually get an answer even if it's not the one you wanted.
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on
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TME and I were long distance from when we first started going out till just a few weeks before we got married (including a nearly 6 month period after we got engaged when I was in two different countries doing my PhD fieldwork)(he was in south Wales, I was in Glasgow. Except when I was in Romania!). There was a bit of "we've got to make each moment together count", but then I found it a bit stressful thinking we had to Do Something every minute to not waste a second. Luckily he was very easy to just hang out with, so it was just as special if we just stayed home and watched a DVD as if we were out and about Doing Something Interesting.
[x-post - response to WW/Jade]
[ 16. April 2013, 11:58: Message edited by: Jack the Lass ]
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I know this is an old fashioned point of view but I was thinking of writing it even before Scots Lass's latest update. I think there's a lot to be said for speaking to someone rather than sending them a message and wondering why they don't reply to it. At least that way you'll usually get an answer even if it's not the one you wanted.
That's easier said than done if you don't see someone! I would always prefer to talk to someone face to face, but in a situation where you don't see someone around then you don't have much choice other than to message them. i suppose if you meet someone as a friend of a friend it would be easier to run into them and talk, but if you live in a different town, or meet through a dating site where you don't have mutual friends, then that's not really an option!
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Scots lass: in a situation where you don't see someone around then you don't have much choice other than to message them.
Er... telephone?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Scots lass: in a situation where you don't see someone around then you don't have much choice other than to message them.
Er... telephone?
Just speaking personally, my anxiety makes this impossible.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
If yo've only met someone a handful of times, then messaging them is a lot less intimidating than phoning them!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Telephone is Teh Awkward, reserved for distant family members only.
Talking on the phone gives you all the awkward silences, pregnant pauses, mis-speakings and interruptions and whose-turn-is-it-to-talk-now uncertainty of in-person contact, but none of the visual cues that allow one to navigate them. No thanks.
Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
TME and I were long distance from when we first started going out till just a few weeks before we got married (including a nearly 6 month period after we got engaged when I was in two different countries doing my PhD fieldwork)(he was in south Wales, I was in Glasgow. Except when I was in Romania!). There was a bit of "we've got to make each moment together count", but then I found it a bit stressful thinking we had to Do Something every minute to not waste a second. Luckily he was very easy to just hang out with, so it was just as special if we just stayed home and watched a DVD as if we were out and about Doing Something Interesting.
[x-post - response to WW/Jade]
To add to the support for Jade C, ours was a similar story, and we're still happily married decades later. Though it did help us that we managed to "make" a few weekends together when on or of us could find a small break in our academic schedules.
And there is much to be said for the quality of "very easy to just hang out with". "Ringing your bell" comes a little later in my experience, though sometimes it doesn't come at all - in that case, one more friend is always a good thing, so nothing is lost.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
Mr. C. and I have spent large sections of our time apart, both before and after marriage. It certainly helped living in an area with a high number of Naval families, so we were not the only ones. We spoke on the phone almost every day, wrote once a week, and tried to spend a lot of time together as a couple / family when we were together. But it gets more difficult as time goes on and you realise how much time (as an overall total) you are spending apart. The only thing to do then is to move heaven and earth to make sure you get back together again full-time afterwards! For us it was a total of 14 years of that kind of interrupted living. And that is too long.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Thanks for all the input.
A more general question - how long to leave in between textings/messages?
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I tend to match pace with the person I'm exchanging messages with--quicker for some, slower for others, doing what's comfortable for me but also being mindful of the style they seem to prefer.
Which could be difficult if the other person is doing exactly that to ME, but as a rule, it seems to work. Initially, at least, I think you want to let some time elapse--not play insanely coy or anything, but leave a bit of space for anticipation.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
At the moment I suspect dissertation stuff is overwhelming everything and my days are much emptier so I keep hoping for more than is actually happening. Finding the balance between encouraging and nagging is very difficult!
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
One thing that always helped me, is to try to do fun things with friends between waiting for a text message/phone call. I found that this greatly reduces anxiety, and helps to respond in a much more relaxed way.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
I had to attend the funeral of a lady from my church on Thursday, and on the bus back in the rain I texted the friend that I'm flirting with and thought liked me back, looking for a bit of comfort and just.....it wasn't there? Like he said 'oh dear' but I dunno, I said that I really needed a cuddle (he's in a different town so it would be a virtual cuddle) and he was just like 'oh I'm not the cuddly type'? Like gee you know how to cheer a girl up I went into House of Fraser and consoled myself at the Guerlain counter with a liberal spray of Mitsouko (Guerlain is my favourite perfume house, although I don't care for most of the modern fragrances).
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
Jade C., he may have just been having an off day himself or you caught him at a bad time. Another problem with texting is that you have absolutely no idea what is going on with the other person. Verbal exchanges on the phone at least allow you to hear a tone of voice.
And even then, it isn't flawless. Back in college, my girlfriend called me (during summer vacation, so we were a few hundred miles apart). A guy at her summer job was sexually harassing her. I got so angry I couldn't trust myself to speak. Later, she complained to me that she couldn't believe that I didn't say any words of comfort, like I didn't care about it. It was actually her room-mate (seeing the shocked look on my face) who told her "I think he was just too mad to speak." My girlfriend missed it entirely--and she knew me pretty well at that point.
Don't jump to conclusions based on insufficient evidence.
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
:
It's not always easy to know what to say to someone who is mourning the death of a person you don't know yourself. He wouldn't be the first or last person to say the wrong thing in that situation.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
I think it's more that he just keeps blowing hot and cold and I'm tired of it.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
In response to a comment upthread, "how are you" is a difficult txt/email to answer. How much detail am I supposed to give, about what? So it doesn't get answered.
"I haven't seen the Life of Pi yet, it's in the theater this weekend, I'm thinking of going, wanna join me?" is concrete. Much easier to respond "sure" or "I've seen it" or "busy this weekend but if you could put it off to next weekend?" or etc.
(If he says no or doesn't respond, grab a friend or neighbor and go anyway, or go alone.)
I'm in a current sort of flirt, realized I had let too much time past and it was my turn to keep the conversation going, send an apologetic "been busy writing songs for a class" and attached a link to one of the songs. Much more concrete than just "been busy" and the link to something I've done is an invitation to know a little more about me.
I've never been good at this stuff but I think I'm catching on, after many years of watching others, and also not *needing* a man makes me more relaxed about the game, unlike when I was at the "now or never" biological clock deadline and a whole lifestyle - parenthood or not - was at stake in whether a relationship worked out.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think it's more that he just keeps blowing hot and cold and I'm tired of it.
FWIW-- boy, do I wish I had had more conversations with myself like this when I needed to. All that energy spent on "What do I do now? How do I adjust to this behavior?" When it is really totally valid to say, "Strange behavior,perhaps I should back off a bit."
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think it's more that he just keeps blowing hot and cold and I'm tired of it.
FWIW-- boy, do I wish I had had more conversations with myself like this when I needed to. All that energy spent on "What do I do now? How do I adjust to this behavior?" When it is really totally valid to say, "Strange behavior,perhaps I should back off a bit."
THAT. So much THAT.
I am about to go on third date with person who does NOT have all the hang-ups of previous person (other hang-ups may very well arise.) It is a fucking REVELATION how much less work I have to do here, how much less stuff I need to bend and squirm and dance around.
Sometimes, it's utterly valid to realize, this isn't something I like to continually adjust to.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
"Strange behavior,perhaps I should back off a bit."
So now the strange are suspect? And I thought you liked me.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
...
Well, there's compelling strange behavior, and then there's just strange.
{ETA: I still have not received the image licencing fee I requested nearly a year ago. ]
[ 21. April 2013, 06:29: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
I told the guy I've been texting that I was attracted to him, but it's not mutual - but I do feel better for having got it out of the way. I mean it still sucks, but actually it feels better than I thought it would do.
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on
:
Well done Jade - that was a really brave thing to do (it's the kind of thing that would scare me). Here's hoping for so much better for you...
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
Well done Jade - that was a really brave thing to do (it's the kind of thing that would scare me). Here's hoping for so much better for you...
Ditto! With an extra helping of hugs!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
How brave, and how excellent. Serious props, Jade--you did something that's scary and important to do, and you did it before too much time got wasted. It sucks, but I can guarantee you that it sucks less than it could, because you had the wherewithal to do it when you did.
You have the space free now, for someone more right for you to move in.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Amen. Good for you, Jade.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Hah, I don't feel especially brave but I am just naturally the kind of person who would rather have a problem out in the open so I can find a solution - pining just feels unnatural to me. Of all the things I inherited from my engineer dad, I didn't expect to apply it this way!
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
:
Getting things out in the open so they can be discussed and resolved is, at least in the experience of this engineer, a very important part of keeping relationships of most sorts running smoothly. It's not easy, by any means, and requires a lot of trust in both your partner and yourself.
But in the long term it is worth it.
Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on
:
Perhaps some on this thread may find some consolation in these views on "how do you decide who to marry?".
One of the 10 year olds polled had a good answer:
" No person really decides before they grow up who they’re going to marry. God decides it all way before, and you get to find out later who you’re stuck with."
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
I don't really feel consoled by the views of a made-up child, no.
I do feel a bit perplexed by what's so apparently unattractive about me - because I don't think I am unattractive! It just seems like it must be something more than bad luck to have been rejected so constantly. More of the engineer in me wanting to fix things, I guess.
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I do feel a bit perplexed by what's so apparently unattractive about me
Not specifically aimed at you, but I do wonder if the 'neediness' that is revealed by posters on this thread is leaking out into their RL relationships?
Perhaps more work is needed on learning the difficult lesson of Philippians 4:11 - persons contented with their lot are more attractive than the desperately seeking.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Well I know, but how do I learn to not want a thing that I want? Romantic intimacy is a pretty universal human need, and if you can't find it then it seems quite natural to be unhappy about it. If you feel lonely even though you have friends, what's the solution?
And it's not hard to be 24 and having never been in a relationship and feel that this is somehow wrong.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Adding that I do lots of activities, have lots of friends (admittedly with a small circle of close friends), am happy to do things like go to the cinema alone. But none of my friends are single and so all of their focus is on their partner - I really struggle to find people to do things with, even just going to the cinema or going for a coffee.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
Jade I know this probably doesn't help, but as you get older your friends will be less centred on their partner (if they have one) and being single will therefore be easier (at least that's what I've found.) I know you want a partner, but it sounds like there is social pressure from your friends to confirm to their "normal." It's tough but if you can find some other single friends (or ones with partners who understand the value of single friends) it will make the situation easier.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I do feel a bit perplexed by what's so apparently unattractive about me
Not specifically aimed at you, but I do wonder if the 'neediness' that is revealed by posters on this thread is leaking out into their RL relationships?
Perhaps more work is needed on learning the difficult lesson of Philippians 4:11 - persons contented with their lot are more attractive than the desperately seeking.
I agree that 'neediness' isn't an attractive quality. If we sound needy in this thread, it's because this is where we come to talk about the needs we feel we have. Probably pretty much guaranteed to 'sound' needy.
I always wondered what Jesus meant by 'poor in spirit'. I'm starting to learn about how much I need God, how much I need other people, and how poor I am in my soul. I don't really understand it yet though.
Jade, treasure the qualities about yourself that you know are attractive. The person you're going to meet is a really lucky person!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Gosh, how emotional my post was I did have a massive cry this morning though which helped a bit (well it left my chest hurting but it helped emotionally).
And I don't think my friends pressure me because of singleness, I think we're just all so young still - and most of my friends are 20ish so younger than me anyway - that it's just very intense and I get a bit forgotten. Which sucks but thanks to a very cold and unfriendly uni CU (really strange and unlike all other CUs I've encountered which love-bomb you) I've struggled to make friends at uni anyway.
And thank you Mad Cat! I do consider myself attractive which is helpful I know. I just look at my friends who meet people off-the-cuff and wonder how on earth they can talk to people so easily...
Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
If we sound needy in this thread, it's because this is where we come to talk about the needs we feel we have. Probably pretty much guaranteed to 'sound' needy.
I appreciate that, it's the chance of it 'leaking' into Real Life that needs to be guarded against
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I just look at my friends who meet people off-the-cuff and wonder how on earth they can talk to people so easily...
Yes, I have always had the same problem - and I know that in my case it has been because I am more interested in myself than I am in them. I try to tell myself that I don't ask personal questions because I don't want to be nosey - but deep down I know the truth.
One of my many besetting sins
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Gosh, how emotional my post was I did have a massive cry this morning though which helped a bit (well it left my chest hurting but it helped emotionally).
And I don't think my friends pressure me because of singleness, I think we're just all so young still - and most of my friends are 20ish so younger than me anyway - that it's just very intense and I get a bit forgotten. Which sucks but thanks to a very cold and unfriendly uni CU (really strange and unlike all other CUs I've encountered which love-bomb you) I've struggled to make friends at uni anyway.
And thank you Mad Cat! I do consider myself attractive which is helpful I know. I just look at my friends who meet people off-the-cuff and wonder how on earth they can talk to people so easily...
Did you try SCM? If they're at your uni.....
I'm struggling to know what to do with a slightly cold choir I belong to. They're not unfriendly. I just don't know how I fit in. It's very weird, as I can usually talk to anyone, but I so on edge with this group.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Gosh, how emotional my post was I did have a massive cry this morning though which helped a bit (well it left my chest hurting but it helped emotionally).
And I don't think my friends pressure me because of singleness, I think we're just all so young still - and most of my friends are 20ish so younger than me anyway - that it's just very intense and I get a bit forgotten. Which sucks but thanks to a very cold and unfriendly uni CU (really strange and unlike all other CUs I've encountered which love-bomb you) I've struggled to make friends at uni anyway.
And thank you Mad Cat! I do consider myself attractive which is helpful I know. I just look at my friends who meet people off-the-cuff and wonder how on earth they can talk to people so easily...
Did you try SCM? If they're at your uni.....
I'm struggling to know what to do with a slightly cold choir I belong to. They're not unfriendly. I just don't know how I fit in. It's very weird, as I can usually talk to anyone, but I so on edge with this group.
Haha, it was me who set up the SCM group! It consists of me, my friends who are a couple, and another two students who are in couples, as well as the chaplain. I am an SCM member as an individual, but we only meet once a year as a whole group so it's a bit awkward. With CU, if my friends who are a couple (I go to church with them and we're sharing a house next year) weren't there for whatever reason nobody would talk to me at all The sessions consist of two songs, followed by a sermon, followed by a song then everyone goes home. No socialising time.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
I met up with my disorganised man just over a week ago and we spent several hours together, which was really nice. Inconclusive, but nice. So I texted him again towards the end of last week to suggest meeting up at the weekend. No reply. Last night I thought to myself "yeah, he's not going to reply is he?" and went to browse the Christian dating site we met on, only to see he'd recently logged in, which I think conclusively says he's not interested in me. I can only assume he didn't think I was worth replying to, which makes me feel pretty lousy, especially as I thought we got on really well. I think he's given off some pretty mixed signals, but there's nothing I can do about it (short of sending him messages pointing out that I did at least deserve the courtesy of a "no thanks", and that's not the best idea).
Thoroughly demoralised right now.
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
:
Could you try the same approach as Jade Constable and say directly that you are interested ? That ought to get a reply one way or another from anyone reasonably good mannered.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
I'm tempted, but I don't quite know what to say!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Try just a little helping of radical human honesty. "I've enjoyed spending time with you, and I think I'd enjoy getting to know you better. I get the sense from our response patterns, though, that this may not be a mutual thing. Any chance I can get some clarity on that? Shall we see one another again, or wish all the best and then head our separate ways?"
Although, to be honest, if he is interested and yet has this kind of response pattern, trust me and Schrodinger-the-elephant that you don't actually want to go there. So maybe just move on, and he'll text you if he texts you.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
Try just a little helping of radical human honesty. "I've enjoyed spending time with you, and I think I'd enjoy getting to know you better. I get the sense from our response patterns, though, that this may not be a mutual thing. Any chance I can get some clarity on that? Shall we see one another again, or wish all the best and then head our separate ways?"
Although, to be honest, if he is interested and yet has this kind of response pattern, trust me and Schrodinger-the-elephant that you don't actually want to go there. So maybe just move on, and he'll text you if he texts you.
Agreed with all of this.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
It's really hard to get tone right in a text message, so I'm putting that off! My current thinking is to ask him to meet up again (with a very specific time) and try and do it face to face. I know he's been having a rough time of late, which is why I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt so much. If he doesn't reply this time, then that's all the answer I need, incredibly frustrating though it is!
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
:
There certainly are people who are disorganized by nature, or at least that is the end effect. For myself, if I don't reply right away I get distracted and lose track under a pile of other things vying for my attention. When things are busy or difficult, sometimes it is much easier if the other person takes the initiative and plans things. Of course, you have to decide whether this is actually what the other person is like, and, if so, whether you are willing to tolerate this characteristic in a partner.
And some men (though I expect it is not entirely gender-specific) require the application of a large clue-bat to realize that someone actually fancies them. It may come as quite a shock. I still remember the dawning realization when a friend came to visit for a weekend and left a dressing gown hanging in my closet because it meant she was planning on returning. After dating a series of women who dumped me after 2 - 3 months when they found how boring I was, this was a radical concept! (Almost 30 years later and she still hangs her gown in my closet. Well, our closet.)
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
And some men (though I expect it is not entirely gender-specific) require the application of a large clue-bat to realize that someone actually fancies them. It may come as quite a shock. I still remember the dawning realization when a friend came to visit for a weekend and left a dressing gown hanging in my closet because it meant she was planning on returning. After dating a series of women who dumped me after 2 - 3 months when they found how boring I was, this was a radical concept! (Almost 30 years later and she still hangs her gown in my closet. Well, our closet.)
I love this thread!
Nen - old married with no right to be here.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
Last night I thought to myself "yeah, he's not going to reply is he?" and went to browse the Christian dating site we met on, only to see he'd recently logged in, which I think conclusively says he's not interested in me.
I don't follow this. Why doesn't it simply mean that he's not ready to date you exclusively?
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
I assume that you can only see if someone else has logged in on this site if you are logged in as well? In this case, he might think the same about you
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
To sum up-- mindreading is a really useless endeavor.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
To sum up-- mindreading is a really useless endeavor.
I knew you were going to say that...
But the point is valid. I know that, in the past, I have been extremely guilty of constructing large and complicated thought-structures about how another person felt based on things like, oh, being logged on to a web site. It is so easy to do--and so easy to be completely wrong.
I am reminded of a Peanuts cartoon. Lucy is looking at a drawing Linus has made. She says "This is a nice drawing of a man. But I notice you drew his hands behind him. This shows insecurity and means that you yourself are insecure." Linus replies: "It means I myself cannot draw hands."
That is why Jade C's Occam-razor-like approach of being direct is so refreshing and so deserving of applause.
<Hedgehog suddenly realizes that the "Applauding Hands" smilie is on another website that he frequents.>
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I am reminded of a Peanuts cartoon. Lucy is looking at a drawing Linus has made. She says "This is a nice drawing of a man. But I notice you drew his hands behind him. This shows insecurity and means that you yourself are insecure." Linus replies: "It means I myself cannot draw hands."
That cartoon completely changed my perspective in life forever. No kidding.
(and agreed about Jade.)
[ 30. April 2013, 18:14: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
If anything, I think that Scott's Lass should go on the site again and have contact with other men. Partly to make him a little bit jealous, partly to not bet all her money on one horse. And don't try the direct approach, but find something really fun next week that you could invite him to, something he won't be able to resist. But take this with the same grain of salt with which my other advice is taken on this thread
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
I think perhaps what this shows is that I may be over-reacting a wee bit, and that I shouldn't read things after taking a lot of migraine pills!
Just to clarify what I was doing - I occasionally go and read the boards on the dating site, because they're compellingly bad and repetitive, or to say "no thanks" to the odd one or two who have messaged me. Whilst there the other week, I looked at my guy's profile briefly and it said he hadn't logged in for three months. I was in a grump on Sunday at him not replying to a message, hence browsing suggestions and then seeing him newly logged in and being surprised.
As for the suggestion about messaging lots of people on the site* - if only there were many I wanted to message! I'd actually cancelled my subscription because I wasn't seeing anyone I wanted to know more about and couldn't see the point in paying to maintain a message facility I wasn't using. I had to renew it to message this guy!
The direct approach is a great idea, but I think I would prefer to do it face to face, so it's worth a try.
*I know it's not entirely serious
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Oh if asking face-to-face is an option, definitely do that - it just wasn't something available to me (which I think is partly why I was so direct, because pining from far away is even more frustrating). But I am *generally* this direct anyway...
Also, I really really do not suit dating websites. Best friend met her husband on one, a free one even, but for me they're just like filling out a CV or something. People are so different in real life anyway, and if you live outside a large city (especially London) your choices can be so limited.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
I've seen men move huge bolders when they are very interested. My ex shoved his teenage daughter into his ex-wife's arms, dumped me and ran to be with someone across the country (I don't even know how they met) since he was burning with desire for her. Men and women, grown people, act this way when they are burning with desire.
This is what I've learned. I myself tend to act like a complete moron whenever I like a guy. I find stupid reasons to talk to him. (I like more than one guy right now thanks be to the LORD so I can't let myself go and get too serious before I am ready, so not ready right now).
A person that thinks you're hot and also more importantly, thinks you're worth it, will reach out. Simple as that. If you spend time trying to read through his actions, almost to the point of picking up tea leaves (which I myself have done and fight the urge to do so on a daily basis with my crushes), you will go mad. And more importantly, you do not treat yourself like the goddess you are.
That is my motto right now. I've wasted 2 years on someone who did not think I was worth much. And I want a guy who really thinks I am hot like YOWZA and won't hesistate to prove it to me.
So right now, everyone I am meeting hasn't been really doing that. And I enjoy my me time too much. I told a guy NO since something ain't quite right this weekend...and it felt good. So I said it several times to other things. And I wrote on Okstupid (not it's real name but close) website last night...and then forgot about him not replying back to my lame email till...just about now.
Yay! Freedom.
[eta: to add Sister Sledge playing in the background.]
[ 01. May 2013, 02:11: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
A person that thinks you're hot and also more importantly, thinks you're worth it, will reach out. Simple as that. If you spend time trying to read through his actions, almost to the point of picking up tea leaves (which I myself have done and fight the urge to do so on a daily basis with my crushes), you will go mad. And more importantly, you do not treat yourself like the goddess you are.
The duchess speaks! So dead on!
Posted by LucyP (# 10476) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Well I know, but how do I learn to not want a thing that I want? Romantic intimacy is a pretty universal human need, and if you can't find it then it seems quite natural to be unhappy about it. If you feel lonely even though you have friends, what's the solution?
Hope you don't mind if I delurk to express some disquiet with the wording of this posting.
I am perplexed about the concept that romantic intimacy is a universal human need. Do you mean physical sex, or do you mean relational intimacy?
Countless people experience physical sex without any relational intimacy - either through casual or paid sex in egalitarian societies, or women in patriarchal societies where they are not valued as people but treated as possessions (like teenager girls sold to elderly men in the Middle East). Are they having their needs met? Some (in the casual sex group) would say they are, and claim that casual sex is so important that the government should fund it for people with disabilities. It seems that casual sex is not what you mean, because (unless you're severely physically disabled) it isn't that hard to find when there is no emotional involvement required.
Is it then emotional intimacy with one romantic/sexual partner which you see as necessary? Personally I would class this as a universal human desire, or pleasure, but not a need. Being valued for who you are, feeling like you have something to contribute to others, having someone to share happiness with -they are all important, but don't have to be achieved within a romantic relationship to be life-enriching. I have known lots of wonderful older single people who would have loved to be married, if the circumstances had been right, but singleness didn't stop them from living fulfilling and loving lives.
I understand that you are going through lots of roller coaster emotions and that this quote is just one expression of your pain. As another single, though, I feel it's a reiteration of the superficial and patronising idea that "you're nobody until somebody loves you [romantically]" -which I see as one of the huge falsehoods of our age.
Unhappiness is magnified by the stories we tell ourselves. In my view, there is probably not a single solution to loneliness, but it often requires a multipronged approach, looking at issues like (1) distorted thinking patterns about what is "normal" and what life "should" be, (2)self-talk that is unnecessarily pessimistic and self-blaming, (3)unrealistic expectations of how much external relationships can resolve inner conflicts, and (4) a more imaginative approach to life which appreciates all the goodness that exists outside of romance. (That's just a short list of possibilities!)
I know this is a support thread, not purgatory - please do take my ramblings as intended, as supportive!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Well I know, but how do I learn to not want a thing that I want? Romantic intimacy is a pretty universal human need, and if you can't find it then it seems quite natural to be unhappy about it. If you feel lonely even though you have friends, what's the solution?
Hope you don't mind if I delurk to express some disquiet with the wording of this posting.
I am perplexed about the concept that romantic intimacy is a universal human need. Do you mean physical sex, or do you mean relational intimacy?
Countless people experience physical sex without any relational intimacy - either through casual or paid sex in egalitarian societies, or women in patriarchal societies where they are not valued as people but treated as possessions (like teenager girls sold to elderly men in the Middle East). Are they having their needs met? Some (in the casual sex group) would say they are, and claim that casual sex is so important that the government should fund it for people with disabilities. It seems that casual sex is not what you mean, because (unless you're severely physically disabled) it isn't that hard to find when there is no emotional involvement required.
Is it then emotional intimacy with one romantic/sexual partner which you see as necessary? Personally I would class this as a universal human desire, or pleasure, but not a need. Being valued for who you are, feeling like you have something to contribute to others, having someone to share happiness with -they are all important, but don't have to be achieved within a romantic relationship to be life-enriching. I have known lots of wonderful older single people who would have loved to be married, if the circumstances had been right, but singleness didn't stop them from living fulfilling and loving lives.
I understand that you are going through lots of roller coaster emotions and that this quote is just one expression of your pain. As another single, though, I feel it's a reiteration of the superficial and patronising idea that "you're nobody until somebody loves you [romantically]" -which I see as one of the huge falsehoods of our age.
Unhappiness is magnified by the stories we tell ourselves. In my view, there is probably not a single solution to loneliness, but it often requires a multipronged approach, looking at issues like (1) distorted thinking patterns about what is "normal" and what life "should" be, (2)self-talk that is unnecessarily pessimistic and self-blaming, (3)unrealistic expectations of how much external relationships can resolve inner conflicts, and (4) a more imaginative approach to life which appreciates all the goodness that exists outside of romance. (That's just a short list of possibilities!)
I know this is a support thread, not purgatory - please do take my ramblings as intended, as supportive!
I actually worded it carefully because I didn't mean either just a sexual relationship or relational intimacy, I meant both together. Sexual needs are still needs, just like relational intimacy needs. At the moment I'm not getting either but unless someone is asexual, for people in romantic relationships both are necessary. Like you say, single people can have non-romantic relational intimacy (which I have to some extent but not to the level which I need) but their sexual needs are still not being addressed. So it's a problem (or it's a problem for me at least).
Posted by LucyP (# 10476) on
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We probably have a differing view of what a "need" is then. Unlike eating, breathing and eliminating, sex is not a "need" for an individual's survival, but it is a biological urge which enables the survival of the species.
I would call it a want, not a need. Analagous to someone saying "work is so stressful, I really, really need a foreign holiday in a 5 star resort." If they can afford the holiday, it may be a solution to their stress level - but others who can't afford the same luxury find alternative ways of coping.
Many people who are not asexual live without sex -eg those not in relationships, those whose partners become disabled in a way that leaves them unable to have sex. They may not see it as an ideal situation, but to say the sex is "necessary" is, in my view, an overstatement, and one that leads to avoidable unhappiness.
[edited for poor sentence structure]
[ 01. May 2013, 09:37: Message edited by: LucyP ]
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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Please remember, and bear in mind when posting, that this is All Saints and not Purgatory.
Thanks.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
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For those of you who remember my woes as a weirdo-magnet...
Oh My Goodness
I was sent a bunch of flowers this morning (with dinner invitation attached) by a person who is actually very nice and not a dysfunctional weirdo
and
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
....... but it is a biological urge which enables the survival of the species.
......
Umm. Some human animals do it for fun or as, like, a bonding thing. As well as for the making of the babies and all that.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
For those of you who remember my woes as a weirdo-magnet...
Oh My Goodness
I was sent a bunch of flowers this morning (with dinner invitation attached) by a person who is actually very nice and not a dysfunctional weirdo
and
And also - YAY!
Posted by LucyP (# 10476) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
....... but it is a biological urge which enables the survival of the species.
......
Umm. Some human animals do it for fun or as, like, a bonding thing. As well as for the making of the babies and all that.
Point taken, but fun is a want, not a need, and there are alternative ways of bonding. But I want to heed the hostly warning, and not be purgatorial, so I shall say no more, except best wishes to all who post here from a fellow single who tries to cope with the struggle by intellectualising!
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
la vie en rouge: I was sent a bunch of flowers this morning (with dinner invitation attached) by a person who is actually very nice and not a dysfunctional weirdo
Classy.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
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quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
Unhappiness is magnified by the stories we tell ourselves.
This is a wonderful quote! So true! Good sound advice for life. Thanks for reminding me LucyP, one of my various crushes told me yesterday I am being too negative and he's right. Blast.
BTW - Kelly Alves, thanks for the highlight/compliment. I actually was worried my post might be taken wrong and not in the winsome yet serious tone it was intended. All women are queens in here and all men are kings! Treat ourselves accordingly!
[edited to make royally tidy.]
[ 02. May 2013, 01:26: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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I was talking today to the (gulp!) man I'm (gulp!) kinda sorta dating (eek!), and he mentioned something that intrigued me: the idea of "five levels of intimacy". I googled a bit and found some stuff about it, and wanted to throw it out there as a possible interesting Thing to Discuss:
5 Levels of Intimacy
Basically, the ladder is:
- Safe conversation ("How are you? Fine."/ "__weather we're having")
- Sharing other's opinions/beliefs (talking about other people we know--"My friend says...")
- Talking about our OWN opinions and beliefs
- Talking about our own experiences and feelings, typically in the past
- Talking about our emotional responses and needs, looking at the present
I see that in my non-romantic relationships as well--the different "levels" on which I can connect and communicate with others, and how off-kilter it is when people approach each other from different levels. Most of the stuff I've been looking at tonight is about how COUPLES go through those levels together, but I dunno...I think this sort of stuff is a big part of satisfying friendships as well.
Do others have thoughts about how "intimacy" plays out for them as single folks--how those levels of connection are or aren't experienced?
(PS I, er, kissed him tonight. First time I've done that in a couple years. Eek.)
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Jeez, IM, if he's even capable of having that conversation, he's certainly the guy I would pick for you, if I were your yenta.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Well done La Vie En Rouge and IM.
With that ladder of intimacy, there are a maximum of three friends I have a level of intimacy with at level 3 or beyond, and two of those friends are a couple.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Asked a (local) lady out for a drink on a dating website. It would be nice if my new-found bravery could be transferred to other areas of my life...
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
We probably have a differing view of what a "need" is then. Unlike eating, breathing and eliminating, sex is not a "need" for an individual's survival, but it is a biological urge which enables the survival of the species.
I would call it a want, not a need. Analagous to someone saying "work is so stressful, I really, really need a foreign holiday in a 5 star resort."
So you only count something as a "need" if you die quickly without it?
As it happens single people do tend to die younger than married people , and the never-married tend to die younger than the once-married (as well as being on average poorer and in worse health). And death rates go up after bereavement or divorce - more for divorce than bereavement, and the effect is larger for men than for women.
I'm not helping am I? It must be these George Jones songs I'm listening to. Specifically this post so far was in fact written to He stopped loving her today
Oh that's OK, its ended. Now my playlist is on I'm so lonesome I could cry.
"Did you ever see a robin weep..."
Now its Willie Nelson singing Amazing Grace. And that is really really good.
Yes, I am listening to both kinds of music today. Country and Western. Time to go to to the pub.
Posted by LucyP (# 10476) on
:
(Purgatorial tangent to answer ken because I think it would be rude to ignore him -please forgive me, hosts.)
Research on whether singles or marrieds live longer has too many confounders to be very useful. Single people with chronic illnesses are less likely to get married, and more likely to die young, so they skew the statistics. Nuns live longer than anyone. Bereavement is horrible for anyone, and people who have lost a child are also more likely to die early.
Yes, almost all of us need to be connected with other people, and if we can find a single exclusive and intimate relationship to do this in, then great. It's just that this is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for happiness and longevity. Again, best wishes to all on this thread in the search - and may this weekend bring all of us the joys of friendship and community!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Well done La Vie En Rouge and IM.
With that ladder of intimacy, there are a maximum of three friends I have a level of intimacy with at level 3 or beyond, and two of those friends are a couple.
Thanks, Jade! It's a little terrifying, really, to actually BE in (something resembling) the thing that I've spent a good long while imagining and longing for and freaking out about. I don't honestly know how stuff will play out long-term--there are logistical issues and age differences and different sorts of preferences on things that are kinda central. But in the meantime, I'm interested in giving it a shot.
My story on the ladder thing: I think I'm unusually blessed in that many/most of my close friendships go to level 5. The "emotional responses and needs" we talk about are not typically about what we need or want from the other person, because friendships typically don't have that kind of relational "demand" as it were--jealousy doesn't usually play in, feelings aren't very often bruised, there aren't a lot of "you need to do more of..." or "I wish you wouldn't..." But I have a solid group of people with whom I can be emotionally transparent and know I'm safe doing so, and people who are able to do that with me. If I didn't, I think I'd have jumped more quickly, perhaps, into an intimate romantic relationship, because it seems like a lot of what drives our understanding of romantic love is the belief that that's the ONE BEST WAY to get that. And I'm honestly not sure if that's a good or a bad thing.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
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Personally not sure I deserve a well done, I kind of didn't do anything... This person is actually one of my bestest friends who I've known a really, really long time but I didn't realise he liked me THAT way. In fact I'm almost having a hard time getting my head round it - you know me that well and you still think I'm amazing? You have very strange taste.
So I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes being your (in my case slightly off the wall) self really does work out.
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
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Can you make yourself more attractive to someone?
There's this woman, my best friend and the person I'm closest to, who I've realised I'd like to be with. In the past she wanted to be with me but I wasn't sure. Right now she's just been dumped for the second time by the same guy. I think there's more drama to play out there and I'm not about to try to insert myself into it at this point.
But. I am thinking that if it ends up in a few months where she's single again and not hung up on this guy then I'd like to be thought of as an option. Clearly there's a version of me somewhere in there that it's possible for her to be attracted to, I guess I'd like to try to find it.
Even if things don't work out with her I think the version of me right now isn't that attractive in general.
So I guess I'm trying to ask the question is it possible to make yourself more attractive without it being trying to change yourself into someone else?
Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on
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I doubt that you can do anything to make yourself more attractive that wouldn't backfire in the long run.
Personally, I would leave this thread open, in a strategic fashion, and see how she reacts. Much simpler, no?
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Confidence, LP. It doesn't change the essential "you" but can put a better light on it. We, most of us, adapt ourselves to new relationships, but this should be organic. And the result of interaction, not to cause interaction.
Not knowing her, this is general, but don't wait too long. Halve the time you think you should wait, and then start sooner.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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My flatmate and I are currently filling out online dating profiles......not sure if either of us will be brave enough to actually communicate with anyone!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Surfing Madness, it's genuinely not as terrifying as one thinks it might be. I've found internet dating to be excellent, non-threatening practice: you set the pace, you decide how much or how little contact, you're not going to have to deal with ongoing contact if you don't want to deal with ongoing contact. Get out there!
Re: making oneself more attractive. I dunno--to me, making changes can be a good thing, if and only if the things you believe the other person would like are also things you feel you'll like, a lot, about yourself. Things that you want to have as a positive part of you, regardless of how your potential beloved ultimately sees them. I want to bring my best self to my relationships, but that only happens when it's truly ME I'm turning into, you know?
I'm finding that exactly the parts of me that my Schrodinger-friend found most difficult are exactly the things that my current person finds enormously valuable: if I'd been able to change to be more attractive to her, I would have reduced my attractiveness to him. And at the end of the day, I'm the one I end up with the most--so really, that's the person I need to change for, if something's not working or I think I could be better.
Although there's no shame at all in, say, remembering a shirt she likes, and, er, wearing it or something like it, a couple more time.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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I guess the process of internet dating is not my problem. It's by signing up it's like saying "i'm not happy with where my life is at the moment." By signing up, will that make me less content with where I am currently at? What am I saying about singleness by signing up.....you get the idea!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
Re: making oneself more attractive. I dunno--to me, making changes can be a good thing, if and only if the things you believe the other person would like are also things you feel you'll like, a lot, about yourself. Things that you want to have as a positive part of you, regardless of how your potential beloved ultimately sees them. I want to bring my best self to my relationships, but that only happens when it's truly ME I'm turning into, you know?
Oh, that's perfect.
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
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Problem is I've always been pretty vague what is the real me anyway. Plus the version that's been around the last few years I don't too much like. So why not try to make a better version?
I do think I have to want to do it because it's worth doing not because it'll make me more attractive.
Also I don't want to be a lousy friend when she needs one, chasing something that if it's going to happen won't be for a while.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
I guess the process of internet dating is not my problem. It's by signing up it's like saying "i'm not happy with where my life is at the moment." By signing up, will that make me less content with where I am currently at? What am I saying about singleness by signing up.....you get the idea!
I would say it's saying that you recognise this isn't what you want your life to be forever. It doesn't make you less content - or if it does then that's the people not the process, and it could happen through meeting them off-line just as easily.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
Also I don't want to be a lousy friend when she needs one, chasing something that if it's going to happen won't be for a while.
I'd suggest just concentrating on being a good friend to her and supporting her through her current upset. Friendly texts and phone calls are good. Chocolate is always welcome. Being asked out for a friendly drink so that she doesn't have to spend the evening alone is thoughtful.
Nen - optimistic for you.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
Problem is I've always been pretty vague what is the real me anyway. Plus the version that's been around the last few years I don't too much like. So why not try to make a better version?
I am not certain what you are actually conveying here. Vague to others or vague to yourself?
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
Also I don't want to be a lousy friend when she needs one, chasing something that if it's going to happen won't be for a while.
I was not suggesting anything predatory, I would never do so. Just suggesting that the "while" may not be as long as you think. IME, it rarely is.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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I really hate internet dating, I've found. Feels too similar to using jobsearch websites. I need to find a way to MEET people, I think.
Re attractiveness, my issue is that I *do* feel attractive in myself (cheers fat acceptance movement). I then feel....puzzled when somehow that attractiveness isn't attracting anyone.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
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Here's the way I see it…
AFAICT this about myself, I am more than averagely easy on the eye. The reason I figure this is that I get a LOT of "how is a girl as pretty as you still single?" comments, usually from other women or from male friends who are already in a couple. I am not unhappy with what I see in the mirror most of the time, but I think that's more of a self-confidence thing, anyway (and getting here was a long journey). Even so, well as I said, I just get all those "how are you still single" comments, because… didn't meet the right person, I guess.
But the thing is, this is the thing - you don't need hundreds of people to think you are the incarnation of esthetic perfection. You don't need the universe to fall for you. You just need one. And finding one has to be doable, right?
Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on
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La Vie en Rouge, I thought that about my daughter, the beautiful, intelligent, successful and Intrepid Miss S. I finally decided that if she didn't have a boyfriend, it was because she didn't want what was on offer. Now she's engaged (and in 6 months will be married ) to someone she's known these past 18 years or so.
So yes, it's like selling a house - you just need to find one right person AT THE RIGHT TIME - I think, for those two, their orbits had to collide when they were at the right (same?) stage of maturity ... or something like that.
Mrs. S, Future Mother of the Bride
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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But my problem is that actually I do want what's on offer, they just don't want me. So I just wait?
Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on
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Well, I guess so, Jade. Either that, or you end up lowering your standards/requirements, and that way madness lies.
I have other friends who didn't meet their soulmates until quite late in life, and I suppose that was the result of them waiting, rather than lowering their sights.
Mrs. S, no dog in this fight any more
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But my problem is that actually I do want what's on offer, they just don't want me. So I just wait?
No, you go out and meet more people!
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
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Jade, if internet dating really isn't working for you then I guess the only answer is to get out more. You sound confident and likeable, you just need to meet the right person.
Nen - last year's Mother of the Bride.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
But my problem is that actually I do want what's on offer, they just don't want me. So I just wait?
No, you go out and meet more people!
I agree! Although I think there's an element of waiting as well - just not sitting about waiting, more accepting that meeting someone hasn't happened yet but living life fully in the mean time. Quite apart from anything else, that will provide more opportunities to meet people!
Admittedly I say this as someone who's spent the last couple of weeks hiding and feeling sorry for myself, but then I resolved to Do More Things and am making proper social life plans. So I'm trying to take my own advice!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Unfortunately at the moment meeting new people is the last thing I want to do! I'm involved in plenty of activities anyway, and I can't think of anything else I want to get involved with. Edited to add that at this point, with the whole of uni being on exam alert, my social life is down because nobody's around to go out with.
The whole asking-rejection-asking-rejection cycle is just tiring anyway.
[ 08. May 2013, 13:58: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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I have heard some people say that it tends to happen when you stop looking (or minding). Not sure how true that is, or whether people only say this when they've already found someone special, so it's rather like 'You always find your lost possessions in the last place you looked'.
But I guess it might be worth a try? Going about your normal daily life quite happily without the undercurrent of feeling you must find someone to go out with? It might be just that sort of carefree happiness which attracts.
Posted by To The Pain (# 12235) on
:
I've heard a few of those 'it happens once you stop looking' stories and I see Chorister's point about not being able to tell whether people only say it once 'it' has happened, but I got to see one close up that was rather lovely.
I had a friend who was utterly desperate to get married. Tried internet dating, asked a number of his friends out, all to no avail. Got rather woeful just before his 30th birthday about being alone forever and decided he didn't want a big fuss made of his birthday. We threw him a surprise kid's birthday party and took him out to a ceilidh. This helped him to realise that people loved him after all and he decided that he didn't need to run around looking for someone special. I think he said at the time that he 'gave up' on the whole idea. But he was maried within a year.
Of course, there must be plenty of people who have similar experiences then go on to lead long-term-single lives. I may turn out to be one of them. I guess the only thing this serves to illustrate is that you never can tell...
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
:
That was my experience: I hadn't exactly given up, but at one point I decided that I might as well have a life and do the things I wanted to do alone rather than wait to have a partner to share them with, because otherwise I might never get a chance. So I started enjoying life by myself.
I really find that sense of self confidence is an important factor in attractiveness: it isn't just the physical attributes, but also the expression on someone's face when they aren't thinking about it; the sense of energy and enthusiasm with which they approach the world; and the ability to be caring and emotional without getting stuck in neediness or addicted to drama. So, for some of us at least, making that transition to accepting and enjoying our life as it is can be an important part in making ourselves more attractive as a partner. (But we could have a whole separate thread on what people find attractive in others.)
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Thanks for the responses. I deleted my OKC account - just because I find it more helpful to not have one at all as opposed to one that I'm not enjoying using. Obviously I'm coming to the point where my friends are getting married (actually it's been that way for a few years now, but I seem to have friends that marry young) but weddings are better than funerals. I think the feeling of being excluded is actually the worst thing, much more than singleness itself, and the current depressive episode isn't really helping either.
I am pretty certain that I don't want kids of my own but just an 'aunt' role (biological aunt or not) and I am actually quite OK with the prospect of not getting married, it's just not having anything at all that's frustrating.
I am feeling rather nostalgic for my previous, bustling, full-of-young-people con-evo Anglican church....but not the theology or single women being relegated to childcare/Sunday school. I love my SCM friends but they're spread all over the country!
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
Jade, my dear, you are still very young. I know how you feel--I felt it myself when I was in my twenties--but I am now in my fifties, so please allow me to say: you are still very young and there is plenty of time ahead of you.
But let me change the pace here and babble on about my sweet Penelope! Her birthday is in April. The exact day doesn't matter because she celebrates it over many, many days.
But here is the thing: for many complicated reasons, Penelope has a very restricted diet (food allergies are the worst!). But she can eat beef so long as no oil is involved. And she likes it rare. The rarer the better. She has often told waitresses that she wants her meat as rare as can be..."as close to moo-ing as you can get it." Now that is not unusual. I know many people who use the "moo-ing" line. But my Penelope is my Penelope. She actually found a restaurant that will serve her a filet..raw. When she found out that this restaurant would do that, she called me. This, in itself, is unusual. She will text me, but she likes actual conversations to be in person. But she called me because she had to tell me about this restaurant. Now, I am not completely stupid (no matter what opinion you may have formed from my postings). I realized we had agreed to go out for her "birthday." But no restaurant had been selected. The fact that she bent her rules to call me told me this was special. Penelope, sounding very much like a little child, asked if we could go to the raw meat place for her birthday. Of course, I said: We can go anywhere you want. It is your birthday celebration. You get to choose!
Now earlier I said that Penelope was very careful NEVER to say "I love you" to me. She violated that rule on this occasion. When I said I would take her, she was so excited that she actually blurted out "I love you!!" because I was taking her to this place. But I understood. This was her dream place: a restaurant that would give her Very Rare (i.e. Raw) Meat. Still, I think it is the first time that she ever allowed herself to say "I love you" to me. I treasure it even if I do understand that it was Unusual Circumstances!!
As the day of our dinner approached, Penelope took great delight in just texting me: "Moooooooooo!" Over and over again. I strongly suspect that she barely slept in the days between because she was so excited at the prospect.
So we went.
Wow. Really. Wow.
I have said before that I live for Penelope being happy. I hit the jackpot. I have NEVER seen her quite so happy! She even called her mother (as a general rule she turns off her phone when we are out--again, special occasion!). But when she got Mom on the phone, she was laughing too hard to talk so that she handed the phone to me.
Now Mom and I have a great relationship. Unlike Penelope, Mom has no problem saying that she loves me. And I her. Mom and I adore each other. The conversation went sort of like this:
Me: Hi! Your daughter is here.
Mom: So I gathered. To what do I owe this honor?
Me: Well, she is pretty close to incomprehensible at this point.
Penelope (gasping): I can talk now!
Me: Oh! She says she can talk now!
[I hand the phone back to her]
Now what happens next I blame myself entirely. You see, Penelope, when she laughs, she laughs with her whole body. She bends at the waist. Her upper torso swings this way and that. Her feet tap a rhythm. So, while she was talking to Mom, she was swinging all over the place. So much so that she whacked her head a solid thump against the wall.
"And" I said, raising my voice so Mom could hear "she has just given herself a concussion..."
This is my fault. I chose the table. I could have picked one in the middle of the restaurant far way from any wall. But I chose one next to the wall. Clearly I didn't think it through: I know how Penelope is when she is giddy. I should have foreseen her whomping the wall with her head. But I didn't. It is my fault. I admit it. I mentioned this to Penelope and she, of course, laughed.
But we had a deliriously happy night. Penelope adored her raw meat, eating far more than she usually does (and cleaning her plate because she refused to leave anything left over). Her eyes were sparkling with happiness. She was in full "giddy" mode, which I adore.
It has been over a week now since then, and when she discusses it she still starts laughing with delight so hard that she can barely speak and her eyes shine with joy. I have said before that I live for this, and I do. I have done many things for Penelope in my life, but I have never done anything before that filled her with so much happiness. To have her eyes still sparkling with joy so long after an event is incomprehensible to me. But I accept it. I love her so much. To bring her so much joy in one night is beyond anything I could imagine.
I don't know why I felt compelled to post this. Other than the fact that I want a record of it to look back on.
Although, God help me, I have no idea how to top this for her birthday next year. But maybe I don't have to worry about it, because early signs are that my sweet Penelope will still be giggling and laughing about this a year from now...
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
That was absolutely effin' wonderful, Hedgehog.
(Hope Penelope gets well soon!)
Posted by basso (# 4228) on
:
What Kelly said, Hedgehog. Gives me a glow just to share that by proxy.
Best to both of you!
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
<bump>
Tell me the story of how you become less run-for-the-hills scared of relationships. Is some anxiety normal, when you start these crazy things?
(It's, er, been awhile.)
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Hang on, reduced anxiety is an option?! Why did no one ever tell me this?
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
My consolation is that everyone else is as anxious as me, so I try to laugh about it.
Then I do my anxious 'whinny' laugh and just think: "Oh Lord....."
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
*updatey bump because I would like to brag*
I am in the middle of a weird and rather enjoyable paradigm shift. My best friend of approximately a bazillion years has turned out to be in love with me. This was a strange week which involved him being admitted to hospital (he'll be fine, but lots of stressy upheaval for all concerned).
He sent me a message last night telling me I am "ravissante et courageuse"*. Which are not words I would ever have used to describe myself but I'm going to go with it. I fell asleep last night repeating to myself that I am ravissante et courageuse. I don't think I've ever been courageous before.
*I'll try to translate this, but well, there's a reason why French is the language of lurrrve. Ravissante is something like "breathtakingly beautiful". The best I can for the whole phrase is "beautiful and courageous".
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
So lovely. Brag away, it gives the rest of us hope. Well done, La vie en rouge .
[ 27. May 2013, 16:10: Message edited by: ArachnidinElmet ]
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Awesome
Compliments are great. Compliments in French? Hooo- eee!
Posted by Sola gratia (# 14065) on
:
Awww, congrats, La Vie en Rouge!
Unexpectedly, I have a similar brag… “a weird and rather enjoyable paradigm shift” is incidentally a fantastic way of phrasing that!
There is a lad I am getting to know, with whom I share mutual friends and was aware of and had met once at a party but barely spoken to until the internet connected us. I happened to click on a link to his blog, he’d written something awesome, I commented, he reciprocated, we bantered on Twitter, and then suddenly the other week he messaged me saying he’d enjoyed chatting and could he ask for my number. I was a little gobsmacked , as Things Like This do not happen to me, as a rule, but he did seem kind, so I agreed, and we have been in contact via text, and occasionally phone for extended periods , every day since. It’s quite spooky, and to be honest also very scary, how well we get on, but he is very sweetly putting up with my insecurities and regular freak-outs and we are meeting soon (he lives in another city a reasonable distance away) to see whether This Thing We’ve Started is a goer romantically (!!)
This sorta ties into infinite_monkey’s question, incidentally: it turns out that, despite secretly sort of wanting Something to happen for a while, I am also pretty terrified of relationships. It’s the vulnerability; I’m not that used to it. BUT, working through the fear, and taking some calculated risks to get to know someone, really are worth it, I am discovering. And being honest about the fact you are scared takes so much pressure off, not just you but also probably the other person. Fear to some extent seems unavoidable; like many things, it’s how you deal with it (i.e. do you chicken out or decide something is worth potentially feeling silly or vulnerable for) that matters. Regret for not trying something can be hard.
Anyway, so, yeah… apparently just being yourself & getting on with stuff you care about can sometimes (eventually?) mean you come across people who like you for you, I am encouraged to discover. Who knew?
Yours encouragingly , and hopefully not-too-sickeningly,
SG
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sola gratia:
BUT, working through the fear, and taking some calculated risks to get to know someone, really are worth it, I am discovering. And being honest about the fact you are scared takes so much pressure off, not just you but also probably the other person. Fear to some extent seems unavoidable; like many things, it’s how you deal with it (i.e. do you chicken out or decide something is worth potentially feeling silly or vulnerable for) that matters. Regret for not trying something can be hard.
You've got it, Sola gratia. I have had so many bad affairs of the heart in my life, that I was tempted to build a wall around my heart and not let it out to play. But C.S. Lewis saved me (and, for that reason, I will not hear a word spoken against him). In The Four Loves he stated: "To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung, and possibly broken." But then he went on to observe that, if you keep your heart safe, not giving it to anything (not even an animal), it will not be broken--worse, it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. "The alternative to tragedy, or at least to the risk of tragedy, is damnation. The only place outside Heaven where you can be perfectly safe from all the dangers and perturbations of love is Hell." May God bless C.S. Lewis, for I was close to shielding my heart off from all feeling. But I stopped and learned to be able to say "Here is my heart, for you. Break it, hurt it, destroy it, kill it, I don't care. I am not in Heaven, but I sure as hell don't choose to be in Hell."
And when you do that, every now and then, you get surprised and the object of your affection turns out to be human, too.
Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on
:
Hedgehog That is beautifully written.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
I've so totally just ordered that book from the interwebs.
Good call Hedgehog ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on
:
A couple of weeks ago someone suggested that as part of handling my depression I should pray 'for a helpmeet' to help me and maybe through children to find the fulfilment lacking - the implication being that the absence of these is an issue in my depression.
How many others have had this type of assumption made of your single lives?
I have depression, if I was married with kids I would still have depression. Funny how no-one would dare suggest that someone had a broken leg or cancer because they were single....
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
A couple of weeks ago someone suggested that as part of handling my depression I should pray 'for a helpmeet' to help me and maybe through children to find the fulfilment lacking - the implication being that the absence of these is an issue in my depression.
Well that is just ludicrous and shows that the speaker has no grasp what depression actually is.
[Editorial Note: I waited a couple hours before responding because my initial reaction was considerably nastier concerning the intelligence level of the speaker. I decided that that was not appropriate for All Saints.]
And, in answer to your question, I can't recall anybody ever making such an assumption about my prolonged singleness. I've had some people assume that I "must be gay" because I am still single, but that is about it. Nobody has ever suggested that I could be cured of an illness by getting married.
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on
:
Yea, well it followed on from prayer and appropriately supportive scriptures and Christian music as her 'helpful encouragement'.
It was a church member after I had taken a service and had had a particularly bad week. Had I had more energy I might have had more reaction, but settled for the church niceness of changing the subject... then fumed at home later.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
:
What this person said to you was clearly crass and unhelpful and based on incorrect assumptions about you and your life.
However, I can understand some of the thinking behind her comments. Depression is a complex condition and there are strong arguments that it has major psychological and social elements, in addition to the phsyiological aspects. Unhappiness and depression are not the same thing and the links between the two are again somewhat variable and complex. But lots of people do express deep unhappiness about not having a partner and/or kids. For myself, if I were to find a romantic parnter, I don't for one minute think that that would cure my depression, but I do think such a relationship could help to reduce my symptoms significantly (as do also:- medication; applying thought techniques learnt in counselling; getting a decent amount of sleep and exercise; trying to make my life one which I find both manageable and fulfilling in various ways; etc).
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
:
Indeed, thinking about it more ... I think what's most unhelpful about this woman's approach is not that she wonders whether lack of partner and kids could be causing / contributing to your depression (I think it's not impossible that for some people this could be a cause of, or major contributing factor to, depression), but that she thinks praying for you to meet a partner is a helpful or adequate response. Some people just never meet a long-term partner or have kids, however much they might want to. For all she knows, you might already have spent time praying for a partner. What if God hasn't seen fit / doesn't see fit to answer such prayers by sending a suitable partner in your direction? Etc. Etc. For me, these are the issues which mean her suggestion is crass and unhelpful and lacking in any adequate level of sensitivity.
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on
:
I have never shown any desire for a husband or kids since I have been here. Actually I have never wanted children. And I cope with my depression by having periods withdrawn from people, a house with other people would limit that.
I think it says a lot about the assumption of 'normal' that if I fitted it better....
(Quite frankly I have seen enough examples of coupledom causing more unhappiness than singleness not to hold to utopian views of it as a guaranteed postive)
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
Avila, that's nonsense, and cruel nonsense at that. <sigh> I'm sure she meant well.
I think there are couple of reasons people say things like that. First, to congratulate themselves on the spot that they are themselves in (if you had a family like meeeeee, think how happy you'd be). But also, ironically, because they have a certain insecurity which is threatened by seeing someone being happy on a different track to them.
To wit: there is a lady in my church who is a *busybody* and loves trying to play matchmaker for the younger single women. She is a pain in the butt. Recently she came up to me to ask if "the Lord had brought me my husband yet" and sing the virtues of a particular guy. He's a perfectly nice guy, but really, really not for me. If she comes up to me again, I am looking forward to gleefully telling her that the person I just started dating is NOT the one she was trying to fix me up with. No, D., you weren't on a hotline to the Holy Spirit, you were just being a interfering old biddy ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
OTOH, I hope she hasn't been singing my praises too much to Guy-I-Am-Not-Interested-In because he *is* a nice guy and I wouldn't want him to get hurt.
Anyway, I have learned recently that this lady is actually quite unhappy in her own marriage and complains about her husband all the time to the other women of her own age. All that going round meddling in the romantic lives of the younger women is actually about her own insecurity.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Feeling discouraged this morning, and sad. The chap I like is, seemingly, about 20 years older than me. And I'm making negative predictions that he'd never be interested anyway. And I'm also reminding myself that it's not as if we're short of charming, attractive women who are in his age group either, and who would probably suit him much better.
Another couple has had their first baby. He's a wee sweety. I got a thump of grief, like a black rock in my chest. I remember in a workplace appraisal when I was 31: where do you see yourself in 5 years time? I thought to myself: I want to get married and have a family. Out loud I said the usual crap about work goals, but what I really wanted was somewhere that was really home and a family to take care of. I suppose I was also quite ill at the time, and nothing came of it, but I kept hoping.
My hopes seem a long way away today. Perhaps the drive to hope is because of knowing despair, the way real faith has climbed over doubt.
I also look at people who are in love and think: God, I want that. I just said that out loud several times and it lifted my heart up. St Ignatius would approve.
Sorry to moan. I hate feeling like this. I would love to be moving on. I think I am moving on. I'm angry with God, but I need forgiveness really a lot.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I hear you, Mad Cat. The life we want and the life we have are often so different, in ways we don't control.
I'm increasingly aware, as I navigate the new world of actually having a relationship, that I carry with me, in whatever situation, the thought patterns and anxieties that are shadow parts of how I see the world. It just plays out differently. What-if-I-never-find-someone becomes what-if-I-found-the-wrong-someone, I-wish-I-had-someone-to-be-close-to becomes, uh-oh,-this-person-wants-to-be-close-and-it-scares-me. I-really-want-a-relationship becomes, I-really-want-this-to-not-be-so-hard.
The thing I'm trying to do with that: realize that since so much of my experience is colored more by my reactions than by the objective reality of what's available or happening, I have the ability to shape my experience in more positive and comfortable directions.
I wonder, really, how best to put that in action.
Babbling a bit. Just wanted to throw it out there, though, that your words resonate with my experience as well.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Avila, that's nonsense, and cruel nonsense at that. <sigh> I'm sure she meant well.
I think there are couple of reasons people say things like that. First, to congratulate themselves on the spot that they are themselves in (if you had a family like meeeeee, think how happy you'd be). But also, ironically, because they have a certain insecurity which is threatened by seeing someone being happy on a different track to them.
Not that people like this do not exist, but this is a cynical view.
There do exist people who genuinely wish to help. Yes, they are making assumptions, and this is not always helpful. It does not necessarily follow that their motives are evil.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
I hear you, Mad Cat. The life we want and the life we have are often so different, in ways we don't control.
I'm increasingly aware, as I navigate the new world of actually having a relationship, that I carry with me, in whatever situation, the thought patterns and anxieties that are shadow parts of how I see the world. It just plays out differently. What-if-I-never-find-someone becomes what-if-I-found-the-wrong-someone, I-wish-I-had-someone-to-be-close-to becomes, uh-oh,-this-person-wants-to-be-close-and-it-scares-me. I-really-want-a-relationship becomes, I-really-want-this-to-not-be-so-hard.
The thing I'm trying to do with that: realize that since so much of my experience is colored more by my reactions than by the objective reality of what's available or happening, I have the ability to shape my experience in more positive and comfortable directions.
I wonder, really, how best to put that in action.
Babbling a bit. Just wanted to throw it out there, though, that your words resonate with my experience as well.
I have a bad case of grass-is-greener-itis, and what you write clarifies how I've been feeling.
I've been assiduously counting blessings all day, and am feeling more on an even keel. I guess sometimes I need to shout "No fair!!" At God, and wrestle with faith and hope some more.
Off to listen to The Stones.....
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
Feeling discouraged this morning, and sad. The chap I like is, seemingly, about 20 years older than me. And I'm making negative predictions that he'd never be interested anyway. And I'm also reminding myself that it's not as if we're short of charming, attractive women who are in his age group either, and who would probably suit him much better.
That age gap would be a problem for many women, but, trust me, not for most men.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Cat:
Feeling discouraged this morning, and sad. The chap I like is, seemingly, about 20 years older than me. And I'm making negative predictions that he'd never be interested anyway. And I'm also reminding myself that it's not as if we're short of charming, attractive women who are in his age group either, and who would probably suit him much better.
That age gap would be a problem for many women, but, trust me, not for most men.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Oh, come on. I can't be the only one!
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, come on. I can't be the only one!
Ah, yus.
(Ref. laughing like a demented pony...)
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
<bump>
I've been reading that thread with interest, but not had much of anything worth saying. As a person who's attracted at times to both genders, this stuff is both more and less of a minefield for me than I imagine it is for Typically Developing Peers. (Since I could hypothetically objectify EVERYBODY, I've settled for objectifying nobody. And I can't flirt my way out of a paper bag, so I'm not too worried about it crossing any lines with folks.)
How's life treating the rest of you?
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
@*%@$*&%$*&@#(*@%$_??!@@#*^@%^$#!@#!!!!
Thank you for asking.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
I'm still in the "seeking community" mode and not worrying about dating-- although I will say, being in that mode makes me a lot more comfortable around men, drunken letchers aside.
I have taken to attending local live music events. At one such event I was the only one in the audience for the first hour of this girl's set, so I just moved up front and started chatting with her. It was great. Later, at a different venue, I saw a band that had two members of the band I saw on my disastrous New Year's night-- the sax player (also the lead singer of the New year's band) totally recognized me and came up to chat with me at the bar, inviting me their next gig. It seem like a nice, low-key, low-commitment way to become a face in the community, which is right now my main goal. I figure the boy-girl stuff will sort itself out later.
[ 10. June 2013, 05:25: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on
:
Weddings on your own suck big time.
Weddings where you are still in love with the groom ...
Ach, he was never for me, I know it. And I like the bride, and they are besotted with each other. Most importantly of all, she makes him happy, which means that I am totally on her side, because nothing is more important to me than his happiness. I have long since got past the mad broken heart bit, and he is quite possibly my best friend in the world, and I love him to pieces and know he loves me too ... just not in 'that way'. But sometimes I slip a little and the old feelings come back.
So I dance at the wedding and have a lovely time. Then I go back to my hotel room at the end of the night and howl.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
So I dance at the wedding and have a lovely time. Then I go back to my hotel room at the end of the night and howl.
((cottontail))You gotta do it sometimes.
I respect the courage it must have taken to get through the day. You are obviously a good friend.
Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on
:
Thanks, Kelly. I appreciate that.
Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on
:
(((Cottontail))) - because I've been there. And despite having now been happily married for 28 years, you know, I still have a tiny corner of my heart that is reserved for the Other One. And it always will be, even if I know he probably never really took me seriously "like that".
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
((Cottontail)) Ay-yah bandit.
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on
:
(((Cottontail))) Big hug xx
Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on
:
You are all very sweet: I was needing some tea and sympathy, and knew I would get some here. I'm all right, really, and am over the worst of the weeps and the self-pity. But I am glad to have this place to come and vent a bit, because it's not the kind of thing I can tell family or even close friends. I couldn't stand the anxious expressions every time I mention the poor guy.
So thanks again. Onwards and upwards.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Someone I rather like texted me inviting me to a BBQ....but had texted the wrong Jade
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Someone I rather like texted me inviting me to a BBQ....but had texted the wrong Jade
Pretend you are she, go along and it could be the start of something beautiful? Would make for a good 'How did you meet?' anecdote anyway.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Someone I rather like texted me inviting me to a BBQ....but had texted the wrong Jade
Pretend you are she, go along and it could be the start of something beautiful? Would make for a good 'How did you meet?' anecdote anyway.
Oh this was a few days ago, and it wasn't possible since he's in Guildford and I was in Birmingham at the time! I didn't actually know that he didn't mean to text me until I apologised afterwards for not being able to attend.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
Tell him he missed the nice Jade, but you'll give him just one chance to make it up over a cup of coffee.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Not really possible because of the distances involved (I was surprised to get the invite because of this!).
It is just tiring being the one to always do the pursuing - I don't mind being proactive, not at all, but am I really that unworthy of being pursued?
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I don't think it's a "worth" question at all, really. I think that some folks just are more comfortable in either role, and it's tricky if the folks you connect with aren't the ones who do a lot of the pursuit themselves. I've learned, in retrospect, about a small but significant number of people who have considered me attractive but not done anything about it because of shyness or discomfort with reaching out like that--that's not about whether I'm "worthy", that's about whether they are able to take that kind of a leap.
There is, I agree, a nice thing to be felt when someone does something that seems to be "pursuing" you--the flattery of knowing you've caught someone's eye, that another person feels you're worthy of that kind of attention. I like that. And I try to remind myself, then, that other people like that, too, and that it's nice to give someone something they like, so it's okay and even good for me to fill that role.
Not that it's always great fun to often do that, of course.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
As I parked my car this afternoon, I noticed the guy unloading his van into the building nearby was looking over. Luckily, I'm alright at parallel parking, so I didn't get flustered. Once I was in the space I glanced up and he was on another trip from his van, and looking over again.
My immediate reaction was: "Huff. Of course I can park properly. What's he looking at?"
Then it occured to me that he might be looking over because I look non-minging today.
Either that or he was just in awe of my parking skillz.
I NEED TO NOTICE THESE THINGS!!
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
meeting a lad today for coffee. He emailed me off a dating website. I was going to take my profile down since I am so jaded. We'll see how this goes.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Hope it goes well, Duchess! And kudos to you for giving it a shot.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Wow, that went very well. He's a very tall man (like 6'6" apparently...embarrassed about it so he put he's 6'5" on his profile). He is really into me apparently. He's totally kind and adorable and yes, very cute. He sounds like batman when he talks (I let him know and he wasn't sure what to make of that). I told him that is a very good thing.
[edited a tiny wee bit of grammar, reading this in my batman voice in my head].
[ 17. June 2013, 04:20: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
Hurray! So pleased that it went well - have fun with it!
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
We're going on another date this Saturday. Yay for batman!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Yay!
My best friend did me a new dating site profile and it is much better than my attempts - we shall see.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
My best friend did me a new dating site profile and it is much better than my attempts - we shall see.
That was a very good idea! Back in the days when I was trying dating sites, I discovered that I am wretched at writing a profile for myself--too close to the source, I suppose. It never occurred to me to have a friend draft one for me.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
date #2 went quite well. splendid. Date #3 will be this Saturday. Date #5 will be the fourth of July. Squeee!
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
You realize that if you keep calling him Batman, we'll start calling you things like Wonder Girl Robin, don't you?
Good luck!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
I really love that idea.
Bless, Duchess. Be happy.
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
:
I presume you are going out for dinner with him 8 times?
You know...
Dinner dinner dinner dinner
Dinner dinner dinner dinner
BATMAN!!!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Ah, solidarity.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Heheh. Nope, don't call him batman to his face. Just mainly on here.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
It's over. I am moving on. He decided we were not compatible. I can see where he was coming from. I think sadly he may be right. I must move on.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
It's over. I am moving on. He decided we were not compatible.
You've got a right to sing the blues, my dear.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Aw nuts. Sorry to hear that.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
It's over. I am moving on. He decided we were not compatible. I can see where he was coming from. I think sadly he may be right. I must move on.
So sorry. But part of the point of the dating process is to find out such things. I once dated a woman for a year and a half even though it was quite obvious from date #1 that we were not that compatible. In fact, it got to the point that I used to joke that it was easy to buy presents for her: I would just go to the store and buy whatever I didn't like, secure in the knowledge that she would think it was absolutely the best thing ever.
The thing is, we both wanted to be in a relationship so much that we kept it up--in retrospect, for waaaaaayyyy too long. It probably would have been better if, three or four dates in, we just admitted that we were not compatible.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
It's over. I am moving on. He decided we were not compatible. I can see where he was coming from. I think sadly he may be right. I must move on.
So sorry. But part of the point of the dating process is to find out such things. I once dated a woman for a year and a half even though it was quite obvious from date #1 that we were not that compatible. In fact, it got to the point that I used to joke that it was easy to buy presents for her: I would just go to the store and buy whatever I didn't like, secure in the knowledge that she would think it was absolutely the best thing ever.
The thing is, we both wanted to be in a relationship so much that we kept it up--in retrospect, for waaaaaayyyy too long. It probably would have been better if, three or four dates in, we just admitted that we were not compatible.
This is pretty spot on and helpful, thank you. He is Agnostic. I totally believe in God. I attend church weekly and rejoice singing in Choir, he doesn't want to come. He likes books on tape, has an old regular cell phone and an ipad he uses when he needs to look up google maps. I have a smartphone. He is not on facebook, I am in the Matrix. I am close to my familia, he doesn't seem that close to his. It was a strange experience to have a man that was so attracted to me reject my personality. It is usually the other way around.
It was ungentlemanly to break up with a private message. But I took the high road and wished him well, told him to follow his dream. He wrote back to me that was very sweet and gracious.
And I moved on.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
This guy offended me in his profile...and made the mistake of pinging me on a dating website. He doesn't want a gal that dresses like a slut yet he wrote something pretty provocative on his own profile...he actually also had what I call a rant list, which includes "if you think Conan O'Brien is funny, or if you are a bitch, don't contact him". I wrote basically think think Conan is a "You're cute but Conan is a funny bitch and so am I, plus also I have a lot of baggage and my family is full of drama. Oh well." I had a good laugh and I think he blocked me (the message seems to be gone). I did feel guilty for writing that and I fear I need to take a break again.
I am walking a ton and trying to eat right, clean up my place.
And I won't allow myself to write anymore snarky messages to men anymore.
[edited to make a post presentable even enough for that unfunny, redheaded bitch they call COCO]
[ 07. July 2013, 04:14: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
oh that was a grammar fail. Judge, I am guilty.
Night night.
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
:
So the woman I was trying to make myself more attractive to* did in fact, as I kind of suspected, get back together with her ex-. That was two weeks ago and we haven't spoken since, though we've texted a bit. I think this is the longest we've not spoken since we first became friends nine years ago. We used to speak most days.
It was my decision not to talk as I thought it might help me actually get over as opposed to thinking I'm over her only to find I'm falling for her again. Not sure if it's working but it's tough. Apart from anything else she's my best friend and it's weird not to be able to discuss things with her.
I've been trying to keep busy and do new things and generally create a life that doesn't revolve around her, but it feels 'hollow' you know? Anyway thanks for listening. Any prayers gratefully received.
*and yes, that was a dumb idea.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
I'm very sorry, LP.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
((Late Paul))
Soon you'll notice that the life you're building has stopped feeling like it's missing her. That truth might seem a long way into the future, but it's there nonetheless.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
"You're cute but Conan is a funny bitch and so am I, plus also I have a lot of baggage and my family is full of drama. Oh well."
The right guy will love these things. You go, girl!
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
"You're cute but Conan is a funny bitch and so am I, plus also I have a lot of baggage and my family is full of drama. Oh well."
The right guy will love these things. You go, girl!
And no more snarky messages? Poor Mr. Right. Highly polished snark is half the fun of online dating; the other half is the Schadenfreude of reading the profiles of the people who are least compatible with you.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Oh what Ariston said, definitely.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Okay, For you guys, I will write back SNARK to those in need of it. For guys I want to date, I will lay on the snark but gently - guys seem to analyse things I say on dates and it goes flat, as I tend to attract the serious types for some reason.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
I wish I got responses on dating websites to snark on, but I don't even get creepy messages! I don't get anything. I don't know why?
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on
:
I read a book a few months ago about one woman's experience with online dating and how she increased the number of contacts she was getting from her profiles. Basically she had to play down being smart (and say she was Fun! instead) and get prettier photos made. She did eventually meet a non-troglodyte, though- she just had to get her profile clicked on enough so that it would be really visible on the site. It was an interesting read.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
But, I do those things! And I take the initiative and contact lots of people, but get no replies to those messages. All the advice I see says that women taking the initiative leads to lots of responses/success, so I don't understand what I'm doing wrong.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Of course, a major problem is that on Christian sites, I cannot search for women who are romantically interested in other women, and any kind of religiosity seems to be a turn-off for LGBT people on secular dating sites....
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
Jade Constable: Of course, a major problem is that on Christian sites, I cannot search for women who are romantically interested in other women, and any kind of religiosity seems to be a turn-off for LGBT people on secular dating sites....
Aren't there more liberal Christian dating sites that include a section for LGBT people?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Jade Constable: Of course, a major problem is that on Christian sites, I cannot search for women who are romantically interested in other women, and any kind of religiosity seems to be a turn-off for LGBT people on secular dating sites....
Aren't there more liberal Christian dating sites that include a section for LGBT people?
I haven't come across any. All the ones I've used limit people to either 'man seeking a woman' or 'woman seeking a man' with no option for anything else. The only LGBT Christian dating site I've found is only for MSM (men who have sex with men), which is no good for me!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Hmmm...
There's this. (rainbowchristians.com)I did a search for UK females and only got 14 hits, but might be a good place to pick up online friends. (No pics on the UK set. )
Did a similar search on gaychristiandating.com and only got twelve, but they had pics.
Oh, and now they got "GayHarmony" compatiblepartners.net, run by the eharmony folk-- guess they started listening to the complaints. There are search options for both gay and bi women in the UK, but I would have had to create a profile to research the issue.
Despite the fact that I found Tin in Link 2 mighty cute, I don't think I am ready for that.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
Well, alongside the green shoots of self-confidence, I keep fighting off the despairing thoughts.
I FB messaged an old school friend who lives in the same neighbourhood as me, suggesting we should meet up sometime for a coffee. (He posts FB pics of his flat white and newspaper in the place round the corner for me.) I think he's seen the message, but there's been no reply. Is it just me, or is that a bit hopeless?
YES, Miss Kettle, Pot Inc. is on the phone. Just making sure you know... okay?
Anyway, it's a tiny bit hopeless not to just drop a line back to say, nice to hear from you. But then, I seem to recall one of Old School Friend's pals leaving a comment on FB to the effect: "Dude, no wonder you're still single."
I was really scunnered* that he didn't send a wee message back, just to say 'hello'. I then did a big catastrophising number on it, making it all about me embarrassing people with my clumsy attempts to befriend them. I mean, I just suggested coffee and a blether, not like I'm going to kidnap him and tie him to my radiator or something.
I am in the habit of feeling rejected. How I have let it get like this.... well, it's just ridic. I am asking God to heal a whole load of stuff: the 'Dear Jane' letter; my two friends walking away down the road; always feeling like a bit of a 'beggar'; that I didn't reach out to people when I could have.
This illusion that things might have been more straighforward, more the way they are for others.
There must be a purpose to it, but only God knows what it is just now. If I can't see yet, it's because I haven't got eyes for it.
I'm going to bed, because I'm *this close* to quoting T S Eliot. And this on only one glass of wine.
* Scots (adj) describing a state of confusion, exhaustion or windedness; see also (v) to scunner and (n) ya wee scunner
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Ooh no Mad Cat, I get exactly the same way! Not getting replies to messages is something I've been getting too and it makes me so anxious I have the whole 'feeling rejected' thing too...I even feel it when people I don't like get to get married before me! I guess the flipside of it is that it means we care about people and how they feel about us. *INFJ powers*
Also feeling pretty belittled by the parents at the moment too which doesn't help.
Posted by ButchCassidy (# 11147) on
:
You guys are guilting me - I'm reminded I haven't replied to a girl who texted me 3 weeks ago... I don't know your situations, but I should say you should never underestimate some people's (guys?) crapness about replying (even to people they like).
[ 24. July 2013, 17:12: Message edited by: ButchCassidy ]
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
You guys are guilting me - I'm reminded I haven't replied to a girl who texted me 3 weeks ago... I don't know your situations, but I should say you should never underestimate some people's (guys?) crapness about replying (even to people they like).
Then text her! None of us can read minds, so if you don't reply we* assume the worst. There's only so many unreplied to messages a girl can send...
*Ok, I assume the worst.
Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on
:
Ladies, let's keep our cell phones handy!
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Hmmm...
There's this. (rainbowchristians.com)I did a search for UK females and only got 14 hits, but might be a good place to pick up online friends. (No pics on the UK set. )
Did a similar search on gaychristiandating.com and only got twelve, but they had pics.
Oh, and now they got "GayHarmony" compatiblepartners.net, run by the eharmony folk-- guess they started listening to the complaints. There are search options for both gay and bi women in the UK, but I would have had to create a profile to research the issue.
Despite the fact that I found Tin in Link 2 mighty cute, I don't think I am ready for that.
JadeC, I had this request made to me by a dear sweet friend of mine that likes butch girls and is a lipstick lesbian I helped to lead to Christ (hence she asked me, a straight gal to find a Christian dating website for her to find a "nice Christian butch girl on". I gave her these sites, not sure how helpful they were. She's quite lovely. If you lived in Colorado, I would set you both up.
Instead, I will pray about this. I have pinged famous progressive Christians that I have bothered on facebook asking them. No response. So I will suggest okcupid and plentyoffish since there are lots of cute gay girls on those sites. Perhaps you can get one to go to church with you.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Status report, stopped writing a crazy Polish guy who kept writing strange things to me "you write me in the middle of the night!". I stopped writing a very cute younger guy that did not seem to be interested in anything by shallow conversation that could lead to some good luvin', I stopped writing a handsome Indian who was not compatible with my religious tendencies, I got pinged by a very cute man 2 hours drive away with a couple pitbulls. This sucks. But I stay the course.
I am just glad I get some responses as many, many pass me by.
*And I always keep my cell phone handy. Whenever I met a guy, I always let someone know, and check in with them.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Hmmm...
There's this. (rainbowchristians.com)I did a search for UK females and only got 14 hits, but might be a good place to pick up online friends. (No pics on the UK set. )
Did a similar search on gaychristiandating.com and only got twelve, but they had pics.
Oh, and now they got "GayHarmony" compatiblepartners.net, run by the eharmony folk-- guess they started listening to the complaints. There are search options for both gay and bi women in the UK, but I would have had to create a profile to research the issue.
Despite the fact that I found Tin in Link 2 mighty cute, I don't think I am ready for that.
JadeC, I had this request made to me by a dear sweet friend of mine that likes butch girls and is a lipstick lesbian I helped to lead to Christ (hence she asked me, a straight gal to find a Christian dating website for her to find a "nice Christian butch girl on". I gave her these sites, not sure how helpful they were. She's quite lovely. If you lived in Colorado, I would set you both up.
Instead, I will pray about this. I have pinged famous progressive Christians that I have bothered on facebook asking them. No response. So I will suggest okcupid and plentyoffish since there are lots of cute gay girls on those sites. Perhaps you can get one to go to church with you.
Haha, I am far from butch anyway I am OK Cupid but not POF because POF do not let you list yourself as bisexual which I am (actually a lot of sites don't, even paying ones like match.com).
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
I got pinged by a very cute man 2 hours drive away with a couple pitbulls. This sucks.
Which, the pit bulls or the distance?
And if he's 2 hours north that gives you an excuse to visit your dear friend Kels
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Hey girl, you are far away from him too. Both the drive and the dogs. But I emailed him anyway this morn. His hazel eyes made it impossible to deny.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
People with hazel eyes tend to be amazing lovers. Just saying.
And pit bulls get a bad rap. As is the master, so is the dog. Most of the pits I have met have been pretty amiable.
As for the two hours-- pshaw! We are Northern California Girls. Some of us would drive two hours just to get good sushi.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
People with hazel eyes tend to be amazing lovers. Just saying.
Why do I suddenly suspect that I know what color Kelly's eyes are?
I will say that the most gorgeous eyes I have ever seen in a human being were hazel. Sadly, she was distinctly Not Interested in me. But I still remember those eyes.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
(sigh)
I'd love to tell you that some day you'll get over those eyes, but I am not given to bald-faced lies.
( )
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Pitbull guy never did reply back. Which is just as well. Taking another look at his profile, he's got a few salacious tidbits in there. Kind of a turn-off for a prudish type like me.
My eyes are brown but they have a lot of green in them. I actually once had a DMV lady tell me to put hazel. She didn't seem right in the head (they've never debated my very low lying weight or the fact that it turns out I'm 1 and 1/2 inches less than the height I've put). I like having brown eyes because I get to sing Van Morrison's song and pretend it's me.
I lie openly on my dating profiles about 1 thing = 1 Put my height as 2 inches higher. I do that since I only found out I was 1 1/2 inches shorter in March this year when I had my physical and they measured me. I asked the last guy I dated if he noticed and he said he didn't, so I keep it since I tend to wear shoes that add a few inches.
Going out tonight if I can stay awake to a blue's club very nearby. Hopefully an act of God will happen and I'll meet a nice Christian guy with a kind heart there. Leaving the online dating alone, giving it a rest this weekend. I need a break.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
Going out tonight if I can stay awake to a blue's club very nearby. Hopefully an act of God will happen and I'll meet a nice Christian guy with a kind heart there.
Great plan! If nothing else, you get to listen to some blues. I'm envious!
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
Realised how useless I am the whole concept of dating (but maybe am happy with that.) My flatmate has her first "date" today with a bloke from the internet. Last night she was having a freak out about the whole concept. I realsied that the only response I had was "shall I make a cup of tea."
While part of me would love to meet someone, I am rapidly realising that I would struggle with the compromises required for a relationship.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
You guys are guilting me - I'm reminded I haven't replied to a girl who texted me 3 weeks ago... I don't know your situations, but I should say you should never underestimate some people's (guys?) crapness about replying (even to people they like).
You've cheered me up Butch. Now, instead of imagining FB friend saying: "Oh God! Not her!" I'm imagining him saying: "That's nice. Must do that sometime...."
Also, text your girl.
Edit: confutatis
[ 27. July 2013, 19:09: Message edited by: Mad Cat ]
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by duchess:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Hmmm...
There's this. (rainbowchristians.com)I did a search for UK females and only got 14 hits, but might be a good place to pick up online friends. (No pics on the UK set. )
Did a similar search on gaychristiandating.com and only got twelve, but they had pics.
Oh, and now they got "GayHarmony" compatiblepartners.net, run by the eharmony folk-- guess they started listening to the complaints. There are search options for both gay and bi women in the UK, but I would have had to create a profile to research the issue.
Despite the fact that I found Tin in Link 2 mighty cute, I don't think I am ready for that.
JadeC, I had this request made to me by a dear sweet friend of mine that likes butch girls and is a lipstick lesbian I helped to lead to Christ (hence she asked me, a straight gal to find a Christian dating website for her to find a "nice Christian butch girl on". I gave her these sites, not sure how helpful they were. She's quite lovely. If you lived in Colorado, I would set you both up.
Instead, I will pray about this. I have pinged famous progressive Christians that I have bothered on facebook asking them. No response. So I will suggest okcupid and plentyoffish since there are lots of cute gay girls on those sites. Perhaps you can get one to go to church with you.
Haha, I am far from butch anyway I am OK Cupid but not POF because POF do not let you list yourself as bisexual which I am (actually a lot of sites don't, even paying ones like match.com).
You might want to try Pink Sofa. They state that:
quote:
To register for membership or use the site, you must be a lesbian* aged 18 years or over.
*Lesbian refers to women who love women including lesbians, bisexual women, transgender, FTM, MTF and intersex women.
Though obviously you can only search for people who identify as female on there.
If you are bisexual, and very much want to meet someone - you could go on match.com or e-harmony and just search for a man, you'd have a much wider pool of potential partners. Assuming you are intending to be monogamous, the fact that you could have been in a relationship with a woman shouldn't derail a relationship with a bloke.
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
:
Does anything on the sites stop you registering twice, once as straight and once as gay ? If you give two different email addresses, it would be likely to work ok I think.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Do you mean having an account on each site? I can't afford a paying site at the moment anyway but I would feel very uncomfortable having an account where I was labelled as 'straight' or 'gay', because I'm not either. Likewise, I wouldn't want to be on a site for 'lesbian women' because even if bisexual women are allowed to be on there, it's still bisexual erasure and it still makes me feel very uncomfortable. Bisexuality is not being gay and straight at the same time, it's a sexual orientation of its own.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Anyway, I got a bit sidetracked there - I actually came into the thread because I've been messaging this guy on a free Christian site and he's actually *messaging me back* and seems to be interested. All very nice! He is in Scotland (I am nowhere near Scotland) but is English and is wanting to move back to England for work. However, I am 24 and he is in his 40s.....I realise that there will be lots of people here who are 40+ - I'm not biased against him because of his age as such, it's just that my parents are in their 40s (mum is 43 in August, dad is 48) so it's a bit weird!
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Do you mean having an account on each site? I can't afford a paying site at the moment anyway but I would feel very uncomfortable having an account where I was labelled as 'straight' or 'gay', because I'm not either. Likewise, I wouldn't want to be on a site for 'lesbian women' because even if bisexual women are allowed to be on there, it's still bisexual erasure and it still makes me feel very uncomfortable. Bisexuality is not being gay and straight at the same time, it's a sexual orientation of its own.
I think they are free to join (pink sofa definitely is). Fact is, dating sites have not caught up with the curve re labels and sexuality - your best chance of meeting someone will be probably be on the larger sites just because they have more people on them. You can include a statement about your sexual orientation in your personal statement and details in your profile (or whatever equivalent they use).
Some degree of compromise will help you - plus if you are a member you could always then bug them to increase their descriptive options.
I think the reason they don't give bisexual as an option is pragmatic - when I used dating sites a while back, I identified as bisexual and was able to say so on some of them. The result was I tended to get messaged by people who thought I might be up for a threesome and that was about it.
On gay sites, if you put your faith label front and center then people tend not to contact you because they assume you are hugely conflicted - not really being aware of gay friendly churches.
I think there is something to be said for progressive disclosure, getting to know someone one before going into the complexities - it gives you the chance to meet people without being filtered out by their initial assumptions.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
To be honest, I find that mentioning one's faith on a secular dating site means that non-religious people are just not interested, whether heterosexual or otherwise - and generally most of the Christians I find on dating sites (Christian or secular) are more conservative than I am and usually evangelical - I don't think I've ever come across an anglo-catholic. Where do all the single Affirming Catholics hide?
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
Anyone else had the annoying experience of talking to someone you are good friends with (and if you were honest, have a teeny-tiny attraction to her/him) and then you meet their newest boyfriend/girlfriend. And afterwards, you are asked what you think of him/her, and you have to be nice, when all you want to say is 'what a complete and utter pillock, you could do better.'
I'm tired of being single and yet seeing men who treat women like crap dating girls I wouldn't mind dating. Tired of being the decent guy and thus being friend-zoned. One comment from the girl in question: 'He's so nice, hasn't pushed me into doing anything I don't want to do... well, not really, anyway.' As if the idea of a guy NOT trying to get in her knickers in the first date is a brand new idea to her. Yet he still made some fairly inappropriate comments about her and to another couple of women in the fifteen minutes I got to meet him. He did have a rather substantial body, however, and I did hear a lot about his fitness regime, and sadly this girl appears to be more shallow than I thought when it comes to looks. Ah well, onwards and upwards...
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Urgh....just got a massively offensive message from the nice guy I was messaging > Concerning dead horses so not sure how much I can share, but referred to ordained women as 'priestesses' and talked about how imagining two women together was a turn on for him and if I was with a man, how would I cope with my desire for women and would I leave him for a woman? I don't really expect such bollocks on a secular site, let alone on a Christian site!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
Anyone else had the annoying experience of talking to someone you are good friends with (and if you were honest, have a teeny-tiny attraction to her/him) and then you meet their newest boyfriend/girlfriend. And afterwards, you are asked what you think of him/her, and you have to be nice, when all you want to say is 'what a complete and utter pillock, you could do better.'
I'm tired of being single and yet seeing men who treat women like crap dating girls I wouldn't mind dating. Tired of being the decent guy and thus being friend-zoned. One comment from the girl in question: 'He's so nice, hasn't pushed me into doing anything I don't want to do... well, not really, anyway.' As if the idea of a guy NOT trying to get in her knickers in the first date is a brand new idea to her. Yet he still made some fairly inappropriate comments about her and to another couple of women in the fifteen minutes I got to meet him. He did have a rather substantial body, however, and I did hear a lot about his fitness regime, and sadly this girl appears to be more shallow than I thought when it comes to looks. Ah well, onwards and upwards...
Being nice does not mean others have an obligation to be attracted to you. Nice Guy Syndrome and the friend zone is a misogynistic myth.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
:
quote:
In Jade Constable's linked article:
This is my message to all the Nice Guys out there: if you call a woman a bitch, a slut, a skank, a whore, ugly, whatever, because she doesn’t want you, you are not nice. If you’re only nice to a woman because you want to be with her, you are not nice. And if you whine about constantly being Friend Zoned, it’s probably because you are not nice. End of story.
I didn't see the words bitch, slut, skank, whore or ugly in MarsmanTJ's post. The worst he said is that the woman in question appears more shallow than he thought (which is a statement about his changing perception rather than a vicious out-and-out attack on her character, and which also seems to be a justifiable comment given the evidence MarsmanTJ presented). It also seemed fairly clear in MarsmanTJ's post that he is not nice to this woman "only" because he would like to be with her, but that he considers her a friend.
What happens if I say that I as a woman am pretty certain I'm in the friend zone of a man I'd deeply love to be with?
[ 30. July 2013, 19:47: Message edited by: Zoey ]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
quote:
In Jade Constable's linked article:
This is my message to all the Nice Guys out there: if you call a woman a bitch, a slut, a skank, a whore, ugly, whatever, because she doesn’t want you, you are not nice. If you’re only nice to a woman because you want to be with her, you are not nice. And if you whine about constantly being Friend Zoned, it’s probably because you are not nice. End of story.
I didn't see the words bitch, slut, skank, whore or ugly in MarsmanTJ's post. The worst he said is that the woman in question appears more shallow than he thought (which is a statement about his changing perception rather than a vicious out-and-out attack on her character, and which also seems to be a justifiable comment given the evidence MarsmanTJ presented). It also seemed fairly clear in MarsmanTJ's post that he is not nice to this woman "only" because he would like to be with her, but that he considers her a friend.
What happens if I say that I as a woman am pretty certain I'm in the friend zone of a man I'd deeply love to be with?
I realise that MarsmanTJ didn't say those things, I linked to the article just to explain how 'being in the friendzone' because one is a 'nice guy' is misogynistic claptrap. In reality someone not being attracted to you (general you) isn't because 'women only like horrible guys', it's because they're just not attracted to you and they're not obliged to fancy you just because you fancy them.
You're not in 'the friend zone' because it doesn't exist. You're attracted to someone who isn't attracted to you, it's a shame but it's not any kind of wrongdoing on the part of the person you're attracted to. And friendship is not a lesser relationship than a romantic relationship.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Ok, first off, friend-zoning goes both ways. I was always the girl in my youth group that the boys used to wail to about never finding a nice Lutheran girl, because yes, people of both genders can be thick as all hell.
Or...
Here's the thing-- the words"Boyfriend" and Girlfriend" come with all these expectations, not to mention the words"husband " and "wife". Having a friend of the opposite sex is such an asset. The only prerequisite for being a friend is being a person, and the only expectation that comes with friendship is that you give it back. With a friend, you are simply you, and that is all you have to be.
When you have found that with someone, even if you become attracted to them, the idea of giving up that ease and comfort in place of something more risky and expectation-fraught might be daunting. In short, a person of the opposite sex might simply like you (or even love you) too much to risk fucking it all up with sex.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
In defence of the 'nice guy':
I've seen the article that Jade linked to before, and though I agree with some of the observations, it's rather too sweepingly at the other extreme. I particularly dislike the implication that people who are friends, but would like more, are automatically resentful/disrespectful/delusional, rather than merely frustrated, and are only in the friendship with an ulterior motive to get more. Anyone who's ever experienced unrequited love with a good friend can call bullshit on that one.
The fact is that there are genuinely nice (lower case 'n') men/women who get looked over time and again by people in pursuit of some ideal which isn't necessarily what it's cracked up to be. Many of us on this thread may well identify with being/having been in that category. The fact is that there are otherwise intelligent human beings who will date people who are unpleasant/dishonest/disrespectful, but who are objectively attractive, or wealthy, or high status, rather than someone 'plain' but decent. It happens. It's frustrating to be an on-looker, knowing full well you potentially have more to offer that person than what they'll get from the current well-groomed idiot. (Though that in itself is a subjective judgement)
My boyfriend is a nice guy. He has a good heart, is extremely respectful of me and has learned, via platonic friendships with many women over the years, how to be a good boyfriend, by noting the complaints they made about their boyfriends and trying not to be like that. Their loss/oversight has been my gain. Meanwhile I found myself repeatedly friend-zoned over the years by guys who seemed to consider my humour and intelligence to be less desirable traits than women who exhibited more 'traditionally feminine' (or whatever) traits. Not all guys are like that though. Fortunately my boyfriend and I found each other, and appreciate the qualities that other people considered secondary.
So although there are creepy 'Nice Guys' out there (and I have encountered some myself via online dating), there are also plenty of ordinary nice people who do get repeatedly overlooked just cos they don't quite tick a box which is likely to be of arbitrary importance. Yes, be cautious of someone whose self-perception is not matched by their deeds. But don't reinforce the isolation that people who are sidelined feel by giving them additional labels.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Nice Guy Syndrome and the friend zone is a misogynistic myth.
Because you say so? Because some rant on the internet with no supporting evidence says so?
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
A couple of further points
- I have never abandoned my friendship with any of the guys who treated me as 'just good friends' despite my opinion that we had the potential to be more. They remained friends even after my romantic feelings for them waned. I'm sure there are men who can say the same of their experiences.
- Being frustrated that someone you are attracted to seems to want to pursue people that treat them badly doesn't have to mean that one is tacitly saying 'they should be in love with ME'. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have been in love with a good friend who they would have been happy for had said friend entered into a relationship with someone who was right for them, rather than having to observe the inevitable car-wreck from the sidelines.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
The fact is that there are genuinely nice (lower case 'n') men/women who get looked over time and again by people in pursuit of some ideal which isn't necessarily what it's cracked up to be. Many of us on this thread may well identify with being/having been in that category. The fact is that there are otherwise intelligent human beings who will date people who are unpleasant/dishonest/disrespectful, but who are objectively attractive, or wealthy, or high status, rather than someone 'plain' but decent. It happens. It's frustrating to be an on-looker, knowing full well you potentially have more to offer that person than what they'll get from the current well-groomed idiot. (Though that in itself is a subjective judgement)
I wrote a 1500 word hell call in response to the first post, but was just about to post it when I thought I'd check this thread again. This actually sums up what I wanted to say rather better than I did, far more succinctly.
Just to set the record straight. Sometimes men are friends with women because they are actually our friends. In this case, I've known her since we were both either seven or eight (I've lost track of when we met) and we've been friends through thick and thin, and the thin times have been particularly thin at times for both of us. It must suck to assume that all your friends of the gender(s) that you are attracted to are only friends with you because they want to sleep with you. I'm glad I don't inhabit that sort of world.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Nice Guy Syndrome and the friend zone is a misogynistic myth.
Because you say so? Because some rant on the internet with no supporting evidence says so?
Er, no? 'Nice Guys' and the friend-zone are concepts that have been around for some time.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pop-psych/201302/nice-guys-the-friend-zone-and-social-semantics-0
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
The fact is that there are genuinely nice (lower case 'n') men/women who get looked over time and again by people in pursuit of some ideal which isn't necessarily what it's cracked up to be. Many of us on this thread may well identify with being/having been in that category. The fact is that there are otherwise intelligent human beings who will date people who are unpleasant/dishonest/disrespectful, but who are objectively attractive, or wealthy, or high status, rather than someone 'plain' but decent. It happens. It's frustrating to be an on-looker, knowing full well you potentially have more to offer that person than what they'll get from the current well-groomed idiot. (Though that in itself is a subjective judgement)
I wrote a 1500 word hell call in response to the first post, but was just about to post it when I thought I'd check this thread again. This actually sums up what I wanted to say rather better than I did, far more succinctly.
Just to set the record straight. Sometimes men are friends with women because they are actually our friends. In this case, I've known her since we were both either seven or eight (I've lost track of when we met) and we've been friends through thick and thin, and the thin times have been particularly thin at times for both of us. It must suck to assume that all your friends of the gender(s) that you are attracted to are only friends with you because they want to sleep with you. I'm glad I don't inhabit that sort of world.
I don't assume that my friends are friends with me because they want to sleep with me, but thanks for playing. It was your use of 'friend-zone' in the same sentence as 'nice guy' that made me post what I did, since some men are friends with women just so they can sleep with them. I've experienced it. Many women have. The 'Nice Guys' who complain about women 'friend-zoning' them when they're not actually nice people and consider niceness something to be paid in sex actually exist. They're often Men's Rights Activists. So, apologies if you used those terms without knowing about Nice Guys, but forgive me for being upset with the kind of man who treats women like vending machines who give out sex in exchange for niceness coins.
http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/01/alt-text-nice-guy/
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Nice_guy_syndrome
http://thefriendlyfem.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/nice-guys-and-friendzone.html
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
I believe that there exists something like the Friend Zone. Maybe start a Purg thread about it?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
Just to set the record straight. Sometimes men are friends with women because they are actually our friends. In this case, I've known her since we were both either seven or eight (I've lost track of when we met) and we've been friends through thick and thin, and the thin times have been particularly thin at times for both of us. It must suck to assume that all your friends of the gender(s) that you are attracted to are only friends with you because they want to sleep with you. I'm glad I don't inhabit that sort of world.
I actually had a male friend express this latter opinion to me-- "Guys pretty much can't be friends with a women unless there is a potential to sleep with her"-- and get really angry when I told him he was full of shit. I would much rather believe (and befriend!) you.
Hazey Jane, thanks for introducing the "big N" and "little n" concept-- it helps a lot. It is hard to talk about this in the presence of decent guys, but there really are guys out there who insist on being actively/ verbally acknowledged as "nice" before they have done thing one to justify it, or even despite ample evidence to the contrary.
I once had someone describe something horrifically spiteful and borderline abusive he'd done to a former partner, and when I blanched(instead of chuckling as he did) he sighed, "Well I guess you think I am not a NICE GUY"-- and then just waited, like he was waiting for me to contradict him.
I didn't.
It killed the evening.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
Jade, you're right that it does happen that way sometimes. I've been on the receiving end of unpleasant messages from guys whose interest I have not returned, or in one case, expressed the view that his comments were making me uncomfortable, which lead to his conclusion that *I* was the one with the problem.
But I don't think we do any of us any favours to dichotomise the issue, such that men are the only ones to feel frustration on being passed over for people who perhaps are not right for the object of their affections. It happens to women too and is equally frustrating. Yes, there are some Creepy 'Nice Guys' out there, but I didn't see any evidence that MarsmanTJ is one of them. He made an unfortunate choice of a combination of words that may be cliché in 'Nice Guy' circles, but which many of us normal nice people still identify with.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Every word he said could have been said by me at some point or another, replacing "guy" with "girl". It just happens.
I guess the tipping point of frustration is when Friendster sighs at you, "I just don't understand why nice guys/ girls like me keep getting passed over," and you timidly murmur, "Heck, I wouldn't pass you over," and they look at you like you just farted...
And that definitely does suck, no getting around it. All we can do is link arms in Sibling-hood.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
May I offer an alternative paradigm to the Nice Guy/nice guy scenario?
My boyfriend says that for many years he felt he was considered as the 'Straight 'Gay Best Friend''. i.e. the only guy to be invited along to an otherwise girlie night out; the guy to whom they could bitch about their boyfriends safe in the knowledge he wouldn't try to swoop in/hit on them etc. A 'non-threatening' male friend, whose lack of threat did not come from lack of interest/eligibility as in the case of a regular 'Gay Best Friend', but rather through (i) his conduct (ii) their perception of him. In regards the latter point, I can see scenarios where he would likely have lost out to other types of men of less good character, but I would obviously disagree with that appraisal.
I'm sure there's an equivalent female archetype. For my part, being as I am probably somewhere in the Venn diagram where Miranda intersects with Amy Farrar Fowler I suspect I have been perceived by many male friends as a kind of asexual funny nerd-girl, and therefore not fanciable, or at least less fanciable than other women who toned down the witty smarts, and were more competent in the hair and make up department* (and let's face it, to lose out in the dating game does not mean one is undesirable, merely one is less desirable than another option).
Does that help at all?
[*Note, I'm not saying that all men prefer pretty/well groomed women to smart/funny ones, or that the two are mutually exclusive. Just making the point that perfectly decent members of both sexes can be overlooked by people who score more highly in other areas].
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
The fact is that there are genuinely nice (lower case 'n') men/women who get looked over time and again by people in pursuit of some ideal which isn't necessarily what it's cracked up to be.
I think this is the heart of many relationship problems. People pursuing the non-existent person and non-existent relationship.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Holy Jesus. Dustin Hoffman just earned "mensch."
(Figured this video and the current discussion was a good fit. Very moving.)
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I actually had a male friend express this latter opinion to me-- "Guys pretty much can't be friends with a women unless there is a potential to sleep with her"-- and get really angry when I told him he was full of shit. I would much rather believe (and befriend!) you.
I don't know this friend, obviously, but it's possible he was just expressing something clumsily. If he wasn't, he's clearly just a tool
I wouldn't say it's universal, or perhaps it is sort of universal, but maybe different people experience it differently and would therefore express it differently, but I can honestly say that I genuinely find all of my friends attractive. After all Duh! they wouldn't be my friends if I didn't like them in some way or other, which ultimately boils down to a kind of attractiveness.
Now, that doesn't translate into only being friends with them because of a "potential" for sex. But it does mean that on one level (a fairly superficial, fleeting and decidedly hypothetical one) the idea of having sex/making love with any of my female friends is not unattractive. After all, they're my friends, I find them attractive, I'm a naturally touchy/huggy person (usually repressed!) and so, you know, the idea can flit across the mind. It's not a question of being friends because you might get laid, more that because you are friends there's a background acknowledgement of a residual attraction.
OK, it's of the sort that is fleeting-thought followed by no-way-never-that-would-be-a-disaster and I-hope-she-never-twigs-(some)-male-brains-work-like-this, but there's still a slightly weird undercurrent if you go looking for it.
I once discussed this with a female friend who is also quite flirty and tactile, and she works the same way, so it's not just men. There's a part of you that says "Hrm, you're not unattractive" whilst the main part of you says "Yes, but that would just so not be a good idea, and I don't really want to go there because it wouldn't be right, and would trash something I value". In fact, the main part of you doesn't even give it conscious thought.
And for the avoidance of doubt, lest the above reads like total sleaze (in which case I've failed to communicate it properly), as a younger man I was always the (little n) nice guy that female friends cried on; I always had more female than male friends; I ever even had the nerve to play Kelly's "I wouldn't" card; you can count the romantic relationships I've had on the fingers of one hand; I'm very lucky to have been married for the last 18 years, utterly faithfully. But there is still a minor sexual element to attraction with female friends - sometimes at the start, and sometimes following the development of the friendship.
Before someone points out the obvious, yes, I would say the same is true for my friendships with blokes. I find all my male friends attractive in some way/on some level. Idle thoughts about sex don't get quite as far though, as I'm just not wired that way, so there's less scope for random brain mugging.
Right, I think that's my over-sharing done for this year.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
I once discussed this with a female friend who is also quite flirty and tactile, and she works the same way, so it's not just men. There's a part of you that says "Hrm, you're not unattractive" whilst the main part of you says "Yes, but that would just so not be a good idea, and I don't really want to go there because it wouldn't be right, and would trash something I value". In fact, the main part of you doesn't even give it conscious thought.
And for the avoidance of doubt, lest the above reads like total sleaze (in which case I've failed to communicate it properly), as a younger man I was always the (little n) nice guy that female friends cried on; I always had more female than male friends; I ever even had the nerve to play Kelly's "I wouldn't" card; you can count the romantic relationships I've had on the fingers of one hand; I'm very lucky to have been married for the last 18 years, utterly faithfully. But there is still a minor sexual element to attraction with female friends - sometimes at the start, and sometimes following the development of the friendship.
Before someone points out the obvious, yes, I would say the same is true for my friendships with blokes. I find all my male friends attractive in some way/on some level. Idle thoughts about sex don't get quite as far though, as I'm just not wired that way, so there's less scope for random brain mugging.
Right, I think that's my over-sharing done for this year.
I relate all over this. In a number of ways. I wish American society were more huggy, for one, as I am hyper-mammalian in that respect, and feel I constantly have to rein it in.
And the guy in question was a huge tool. He said what he said in front of my (then) husband and his (soon to be) wife. If he had put some effort into explaining as you just did, I might have wound up agreeing with him, as I do understand the difference between fleeting/ half-conscious thoughts and whatnot--have 'em myself-- and creating some mental harem, which is kind of the tone he gave it.
"Don't kid yourself," he sniffed at me, when I told him I had a number of male friends who had no intention of boinking me.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Just one more thought:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I guess the tipping point of frustration is when Friendster sighs at you, "I just don't understand why nice guys/ girls like me keep getting passed over," and you timidly murmur, "Heck, I wouldn't pass you over," and they look at you like you just farted...
And that definitely does suck, no getting around it. All we can do is link arms in Sibling-hood.
Well, there is another thing we can do-- we can remember how it feels, and try to be kind when it is our turn to be on the other side of it. Not to say you have to give in to anybody who declares themselves to you, just be kind.
Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
Fortunately my boyfriend and I found each other, and appreciate the qualities that other people considered secondary.
That sounds like a good start to a long-term relationship.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Thinking about the friend/sex dynamic, I recalled conversations with gay male friends. And many do seem to be able to have male friends for whom they have no attraction. As I am outside of their zone of interest, I am fairly certain they were not attempting to mislead me. I have also gay male acquaintances who will fuck anything that doesn't move fast enough to avoid it. So, I would think this is an individual trait, not a male trait. I would hazard a guess that straight men are kind of programmed to be aggressive sexually so this skews the numbers for them. But, again, not an inherent male tendency.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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Did anyone see the Panorama programme discussing on-line dating this week? Cupid is one of the companies investigated.
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
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Could a UK host kindly oblige me by checking the link above?
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
I know someone must access the actual link, but if you wish a head-start on the content, click here.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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Sorry Pete- I'll give you a news story that came out of the programme, which should be internationally accessible.
Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on
:
Link works... and I'm now stuck here watching it because it's quite interesting.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
Jade, you're right that it does happen that way sometimes. I've been on the receiving end of unpleasant messages from guys whose interest I have not returned, or in one case, expressed the view that his comments were making me uncomfortable, which lead to his conclusion that *I* was the one with the problem.
But I don't think we do any of us any favours to dichotomise the issue, such that men are the only ones to feel frustration on being passed over for people who perhaps are not right for the object of their affections. It happens to women too and is equally frustrating. Yes, there are some Creepy 'Nice Guys' out there, but I didn't see any evidence that MarsmanTJ is one of them. He made an unfortunate choice of a combination of words that may be cliché in 'Nice Guy' circles, but which many of us normal nice people still identify with.
This.
This is a vastly more articulate version of the thoughts I had which prompted me make my preivous post in reaction to Jade Constable's initial response to MarsmanTJ.
I think my definition of "being in the friend zone" is along the lines of "having a friendship with a person to whom you feel a (greater or lesser) degree of attraction, but who you believe will almost certainly never wish to date / marry / shag / whatever you"*. Jade Constable, are you saying that this experience doesn't exist?????
* I also believe that one can be in this situation and still have a genuine, respectful, positive friendship with the other person in question, accepting and respecting the fact that they are almost certainly never going to wish to date / marry / shag / whatever you. I'm somewhat baffled as to what Jade Constable would have men and women do when in this position - barring the existence of an off-switch for inconvenient feelings such as unrequited attraction, are we meant to stop being friends with the other person at all?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
Jade, you're right that it does happen that way sometimes. I've been on the receiving end of unpleasant messages from guys whose interest I have not returned, or in one case, expressed the view that his comments were making me uncomfortable, which lead to his conclusion that *I* was the one with the problem.
But I don't think we do any of us any favours to dichotomise the issue, such that men are the only ones to feel frustration on being passed over for people who perhaps are not right for the object of their affections. It happens to women too and is equally frustrating. Yes, there are some Creepy 'Nice Guys' out there, but I didn't see any evidence that MarsmanTJ is one of them. He made an unfortunate choice of a combination of words that may be cliché in 'Nice Guy' circles, but which many of us normal nice people still identify with.
This.
This is a vastly more articulate version of the thoughts I had which prompted me make my preivous post in reaction to Jade Constable's initial response to MarsmanTJ.
I think my definition of "being in the friend zone" is along the lines of "having a friendship with a person to whom you feel a (greater or lesser) degree of attraction, but who you believe will almost certainly never wish to date / marry / shag / whatever you"*. Jade Constable, are you saying that this experience doesn't exist?????
* I also believe that one can be in this situation and still have a genuine, respectful, positive friendship with the other person in question, accepting and respecting the fact that they are almost certainly never going to wish to date / marry / shag / whatever you. I'm somewhat baffled as to what Jade Constable would have men and women do when in this position - barring the existence of an off-switch for inconvenient feelings such as unrequited attraction, are we meant to stop being friends with the other person at all?
No, the Friend Zone as concocted by 'Nice Guys' doesn't exist, which is what I thought MarsmanTJ was talking about.
Personally I *do* think the proliferation of 'Nice Guys' is a male problem and a symptom of the patriarchy, and not a universal problem. There seems to be no female equivalent. It's a problem rooted in misogyny, not just bad luck on the part of the men involved. I am just talking about actual 'Nice Guys' here though.
As for unrequited feelings for friends, I think that sometimes ending that friendship is the best option, if the feelings are very strong. I don't think a friendship can be healthy where one person has unrequited feelings for the other - either the feelings have to end, or the friendship does.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Personally I *do* think the proliferation of 'Nice Guys' is a male problem and a symptom of the patriarchy, and not a universal problem. There seems to be no female equivalent. It's a problem rooted in misogyny, not just bad luck on the part of the men involved. I am just talking about actual 'Nice Guys' here though.
Well, we'll just have to disagree then, because in my experience there is a female equivalent.
quote:
As for unrequited feelings for friends, I think that sometimes ending that friendship is the best option, if the feelings are very strong. I don't think a friendship can be healthy where one person has unrequited feelings for the other - either the feelings have to end, or the friendship does.
I disagree with this as well -- I think it's short-sighted. Just because feelings are very strong doesn't mean they'll last if they're not nourished and cherished. The one with unrequited feelings might want to just back off a bit and see if things change. They could meet someone else, or they might simply find that without encouragement their feelings wither. That's how it worked for me, and I'm very glad I didn't cut off a friendship I value very highly.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
Another one agreeing you can be a woman and friends with a man and have feelings for them. Some of my long-standing friends and I have watched each other through several relationships on both sides, and not got involved with each other, although at times we have been interested, it's never been at the same time or place. Or it's never been appropriate. But I would have hated to have missed out on those friendships.
And most of them I lost contact with when they married someone who couldn't believe men and women could have platonic friendships.
(Studying sciences and maths when I did meant I was at university with a ratio of 11 men to every woman in a department with a ratio of 7:1. There weren't a whole lot of women around to be friends with.)
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I would hazard a guess that straight men are kind of programmed to be aggressive sexually
I really hope that doesn't apply to all of us.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I would hazard a guess that straight men are kind of programmed to be aggressive sexually
I really hope that doesn't apply to all of us.
From the context, I'd guess that another way to phrase this would be to say that our society tends to encourage straight men to be sexually aggressive; mainstream entertainment tends to depict straight guys as sexually aggressive and to cast that in a generally positive light. I don't think lilBuddha was saying all straight guys are sexually aggressive.
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
:
I've been thinking a lot about the friendship v unrequited attraction thing because of the woman I mentioned earlier in the thread. It's now been a little over five weeks since she started going out with someone else and we've spoken once (and it didn't go very well). In the mean time I have seriously considered whether we can still be friends at all, or if so in what way.
After much prayer, thought and chatting with another good friend I've come to the conclusion that we can and will stay friends. It may be awkward and we almost certainly won't talk as much as we did but I miss her too much not to try. I miss chatting about inconsequential things and sometimes consequential ones too. And she's made it clear she'd like to stay in touch too.
Another factor in my decision was my experience with my friend D. D and I were close when I was a student. At that time it became clear that she was attracted to me but I wasn't to her. We talked it over, I tried to let her down gently, she cried, we hugged and stayed friends... for a while. Later on I let myself be influenced by other people's view of the friendship - people who couldn't resist raising an eyebrow when I told them D and I were "just friends". I also convinced myself that there was something not quite right from a Christian point of view. I was a GLE at the time, young and a bit zealous and I'd decided that in the same way that there's a physical intimacy that's reserved for marriage, then maybe that's true of a certain level emotional intimacy too and so maybe I needed to back off a little. I wrote her a now infamous letter explaining myself. In my mind I wasn't saying "this is the end" but that's how it came across. We didn't speak or write for a while, she got married and then emigrated and we lost touch for a long time.
Then along comes Facebook and we got back in contact. She came over to visit friends and family, and after nearly 20years we met up again. It was really nice. She continues to be a very important friend.
I really regret what I did and that stupid letter. I regret having to be so black and white and put relationships into neat boxes and losing out on years of friendship as a result. I don't want that to happen again so I'm going to try to stay friends with my unrequited other woman. It'll probably be a bit messy and a bit awkward for a while, but that's ok I think.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I would hazard a guess that straight men are kind of programmed to be aggressive sexually
I really hope that doesn't apply to all of us.
From the context, I'd guess that another way to phrase this would be to say that our society tends to encourage straight men to be sexually aggressive; mainstream entertainment tends to depict straight guys as sexually aggressive and to cast that in a generally positive light. I don't think lilBuddha was saying all straight guys are sexually aggressive.
Exactly right, RuthW, and thank you for stating this much better than I did.
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
I think my definition of "being in the friend zone" is along the lines of "having a friendship with a person to whom you feel a (greater or lesser) degree of attraction, but who you believe will almost certainly never wish to date / marry / shag / whatever you"*.
I've heard a more specific definition- I don't think it's just crushing on a friend who's not attracted to you. It's more like you get "friendzoned" because you weren't sexually assertive enough, or because you were too nice, or because you weren't stereotypically masculine enough. Basically that a girl MIGHT have potentially been attracted to you, but you killed her attraction by not being Macho Jerk Dude.
IOW girls only go for bad boys.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Just because feelings are very strong doesn't mean they'll last if they're not nourished and cherished. The one with unrequited feelings might want to just back off a bit and see if things change. They could meet someone else, or they might simply find that without encouragement their feelings wither. That's how it worked for me, and I'm very glad I didn't cut off a friendship I value very highly.
Word.
In my twenties, I once screwed up the courage to tell a friend that, since we had been hanging out together so much I was beginning to develop feelings for him, and I was starting to find it hard to be his sounding board about other girls. He snapped,"Well I thought we were friends, and we could talk about anything.I guess I was wrong." And all but hung up on me.
I still remember how shocked I was. I had been bracing myself for some kind of "you're like a sister to me" talk, but had never, ever thought a friend as close as I considered him would just withdraw friendship the way he did. He tried to mend fences later, but I could never quite trust him again.
Years later, a friend of mine tumbled to the fact that I was crushing on him-- note: I didn't even have to tell him, he was a good enough friend to pick up on it-- and he gave me a very direct, very kind speech along the lines of,"If I wasn't so involved with X, I would be honored to date you, but I am very serious about X. But please know how special I think you are and how much I value our friendship."
And then he proceeded to back up every word he said, by treating me like someone who was special to him and whom he valued. The embarrassment and disappointment I felt was very quickly eclipsed by the love and appreciation of a good friend. And I eventually found a new friend in X.
That's the thing for me-- genuine love is always worth it, no matter what form it takes. I would rather have a platonic friend who is damn good at love than a romantic relationship with someone who is crap at it. Preferably many such friends, actually.
[ 01. August 2013, 06:17: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I would hazard a guess that straight men are kind of programmed to be aggressive sexually
I really hope that doesn't apply to all of us.
From the context, I'd guess that another way to phrase this would be to say that our society tends to encourage straight men to be sexually aggressive; mainstream entertainment tends to depict straight guys as sexually aggressive and to cast that in a generally positive light. I don't think lilBuddha was saying all straight guys are sexually aggressive.
Exactly right, RuthW, and thank you for stating this much better than I did.
Thanks for clarifying. I knew you weren't the type of person to brand all men as sexual predators so there must have been another interpretation I wasn't seeing.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
That's the thing for me-- genuine love is always worth it, no matter what form it takes. I would rather have a platonic friend who is damn good at love than a romantic relationship with someone who is crap at it. Preferably many such friends, actually.
I could not agree more. Love is never wasted.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Just because feelings are very strong doesn't mean they'll last if they're not nourished and cherished. The one with unrequited feelings might want to just back off a bit and see if things change. They could meet someone else, or they might simply find that without encouragement their feelings wither. That's how it worked for me, and I'm very glad I didn't cut off a friendship I value very highly.
Word.
In my twenties, I once screwed up the courage to tell a friend that, since we had been hanging out together so much I was beginning to develop feelings for him, and I was starting to find it hard to be his sounding board about other girls. He snapped,"Well I thought we were friends, and we could talk about anything.I guess I was wrong." And all but hung up on me.
I still remember how shocked I was. I had been bracing myself for some kind of "you're like a sister to me" talk, but had never, ever thought a friend as close as I considered him would just withdraw friendship the way he did. He tried to mend fences later, but I could never quite trust him again.
Years later, a friend of mine tumbled to the fact that I was crushing on him-- note: I didn't even have to tell him, he was a good enough friend to pick up on it-- and he gave me a very direct, very kind speech along the lines of,"If I wasn't so involved with X, I would be honored to date you, but I am very serious about X. But please know how special I think you are and how much I value our friendship."
And then he proceeded to back up every word he said, by treating me like someone who was special to him and whom he valued. The embarrassment and disappointment I felt was very quickly eclipsed by the love and appreciation of a good friend. And I eventually found a new friend in X.
That's the thing for me-- genuine love is always worth it, no matter what form it takes. I would rather have a platonic friend who is damn good at love than a romantic relationship with someone who is crap at it. Preferably many such friends, actually.
But what if all you're left with is neither?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Personally I *do* think the proliferation of 'Nice Guys' is a male problem and a symptom of the patriarchy, and not a universal problem. There seems to be no female equivalent. It's a problem rooted in misogyny, not just bad luck on the part of the men involved. I am just talking about actual 'Nice Guys' here though.
Well, we'll just have to disagree then, because in my experience there is a female equivalent.
quote:
As for unrequited feelings for friends, I think that sometimes ending that friendship is the best option, if the feelings are very strong. I don't think a friendship can be healthy where one person has unrequited feelings for the other - either the feelings have to end, or the friendship does.
I disagree with this as well -- I think it's short-sighted. Just because feelings are very strong doesn't mean they'll last if they're not nourished and cherished. The one with unrequited feelings might want to just back off a bit and see if things change. They could meet someone else, or they might simply find that without encouragement their feelings wither. That's how it worked for me, and I'm very glad I didn't cut off a friendship I value very highly.
How can there be a female equivalent when Nice Guys-ism is rooted in misogyny? Please explain.
Also, personally, in my experience, such strong feelings always leave a scar behind and damages the friendship - the feelings may not last but the ghosts of them always remain.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Speaking form my experience and observations, nice girl syndrome is the same as nice guy syndrome.
Many desire a partner with a bit more "edge".
A few years ago, I changed my look. Not drastically, a more "aggressive" hairstyle, tops with skulls and old-school monsters. The response was immediate and striking. Much more attention from both sexes.
As to the love interest/friend transition, I've experienced this from both sides, in both directions. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. No formula other than respect.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
How can there be a female equivalent when Nice Guys-ism is rooted in misogyny? Please explain.
So all the women on this thread who claim they have been friend-zoned are lying,and there is no such proverb passed among women as "treat 'em mean to keep 'em keen."
The guy in my first anecdote above had a couple very attentive female freinds on the back burner,and actively pursued women who kept him at arms length. (Both. Sexes. Do .This.) I really did feel my poor ability to disguise my feelings and my open expression of affection worked against me in his case-- I was just less of a "prize." The girls he pursued we the textbook definition of "treat 'em mean to keep 'em keen." (Note-- personally I have only heard that phrase used among and about women. And as a suggested remedy, sometimes!)
I did finally wind up dating and marrying a guy who was as ridiculously transparent as I was, and while it didn't work out, given my other choices at the time I think I made the very best one. And guess who pulled me aside privately weeks after we announced our engagement and gave me a violin- backed speech about how girls don't understand that guys just flirt with other girls to get them jealous?
I said, "Guys who play stupid games like that deserve what they get."
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
How can there be a female equivalent when Nice Guys-ism is rooted in misogyny? Please explain.
So all the women on this thread who claim they have been friend-zoned are lying,and there is no such proverb passed among women as "treat 'em mean to keep 'em keen."
The guy in my first anecdote above had a couple very attentive female freinds on the back burner,and actively pursued women who kept him at arms length. (Both. Sexes. Do .This.) I really did feel my poor ability to disguise my feelings and my open expression of affection worked against me in his case-- I was just less of a "prize." The girls he pursued we the textbook definition of "treat 'em mean to keep 'em keen." (Note-- personally I have only heard that phrase used among and about women. And as a suggested remedy, sometimes!)
I did finally wind up dating and marrying a guy who was as ridiculously transparent as I was, and while it didn't work out, given my other choices at the time I think I made the very best one. And guess who pulled me aside privately weeks after we announced our engagement and gave me a violin- backed speech about how girls don't understand that guys just flirt with other girls to get them jealous?
I said, "Guys who play stupid games like that deserve what they get."
I'm not talking about 'friend-zoning', I'm talking about actual Nice Guys who believe that women have a duty to sleep with them if they (the Nice Guys) are nice to them, and call them sexist slurs if the women refuse. How is that not derived from misogyny? Nice Guys (with capital letters) are a symptom of the patriarchy.
Of course there is a way around this, but that involves dismantling the patriarchy which might take a while
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Well, the problem with throwing around that specific definition of the situation on this thread is it applies to nobody on it-- we're all sharing our experiences and trying to find common ground, and you basically interrupted that process by throwing out a judgmental term at one participant who did nothing to earn it.
The rest of us are pretty much saying, "Been there, dude." Because we have.
My suggestion is, if you want to go deeper into the misogynistic use of the term "friend zone"--and I have heard it used that way, so I'll be happy to join in-- try Purgatory, as LeRoc suggested. Otherwise, don't punish the brother for being vulnerable in public-- that definitely is a macho, patriarchal thing to do.
[ 04. August 2013, 04:03: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Well, the problem with throwing around that specific definition of the situation on this thread is it applies to nobody on it-- we're all sharing our experiences and trying to find common ground, and you basically interrupted that process by throwing out a judgmental term at one participant who did nothing to earn it.
The rest of us are pretty much saying, "Been there, dude." Because we have.
My suggestion is, if you want to go deeper into the misogynistic use of the term "friend zone"--and I have heard it used that way, so I'll be happy to join in-- try Purgatory, as LeRoc suggested. Otherwise, don't punish the brother for being vulnerable in public-- that definitely is a macho, patriarchal thing to do.
I'd second what Kelly said. Ultimately this is a support thread. In this context it's more appropriate to listen to someone who says "Here's my struggle" and walk alongside them rather than tell them that their experience isn't true and their perceptions are damaging.
There are most definitely archetypal Nice Guys™ out there who are anything but nice. And though there might not be an exact female equivalent who responds with such violent/aggressive language and sentiment as the Nice Guy™, there are also damaging female archetypes, like the 'String Along Princess' who likes the attention and gives a guy just enough hope to keep him running around after her, knowing full well she has no intent of ever letting anything happen. Note, I am not talking about women who genuinely want to be friends and men who think they're owed sex for being nice. I mean women who play on the type of guy who wants to be the Knight in Shining Armour and milk him for all he's worth, misleading him as she goes. It happens. There are toxic men and toxic women, and we can blame it on the patriarchy or whatever, but at the end of the day it's just not cool to treat people badly, whatever the reasons.
Interestingly, I have only been on the receiving end of the Nice Guy™ phenomenon via online dating. In my personal face to face experiences of being 'friend zoned', and when I've placed other people there (or to use the old fashioned term of unrequited love) I've tended to observe two reactions (i) hopeless ongoing pursual of the cause (not agressive or creepy, just 'I can't give up on this') or (ii) "X doesn't like me, X is a wonderful person, therefore I am unworthy of love". Never any "X rejected me, X is a bitch, all women are bitches". But that might be a reflection that online dating is strangers responding to strangers, while my other observations are to do with friends responding to friends. I cannot comment on strangers responding to strangers IRL because I have hardly ever been approached in that way by a stranger (or not so as I was savvy enough to realise) and I've never come across a Nice Guy™ reaction in that context. If it is indeed more common online, I wonder if it's as much a symptom of online behaviour (c.f. Twitter bullies) as it is of patriarchal legacies.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
The online thing definitely rings true IMO.
Also, I think it might have just been crossed wires on this thread? I thought we were talking about the specific type of Nice Guy all the way through and not just general 'friend zoning' (quotes used because of personal discomfort with the phrase but I can't think of a better one).
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Internet died so couldn't edit my reply in time - I was going to say that while the internet thing is certainly true IME, it's also part of the patriarchy, since most people who are abused online are women and the internet is mostly set up by men. But that's a topic for Purgatory. An interesting addition to the online porn topic? Online porn often goes hand in hand with online abuse of women.
/ends essay
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
If we have indeed got our wires crossed, Jade, then I honestly don't know what you've been talking about.
Aside from that ... what Kelly said. Again!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
There are toxic men and toxic women, and we can blame it on the patriarchy or whatever, but at the end of the day it's just not cool to treat people badly, whatever the reasons.
That's about the size of it. And all we can do is call our own fouls, protect ourselves and take care of each other.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If we have indeed got our wires crossed, Jade, then I honestly don't know what you've been talking about.
Aside from that ... what Kelly said. Again!
Sorry, I was talking about the specifically misogynistic Nice Guys, not just nice men in general.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
I don't know what "specifically misogynistic Nice Guys" even means. Men who are only being nice because they want to get sex are called "players" where I live. And where I live, the friend zone is a real thing that happens a lot to both men and women, and there's nothing misogynistic in the term or the real-life phenomenon.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
It seems to be an online dating phenomenon, in part, associated with a particular kind of insecure man. It's an observed phenomenon and well-known, though.
Anyway, moving on.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
...Anyway, moving on.
That seems a remarkably good idea to me - if anyone wants a semantic discussion of Nice Guy and so on then it seems that Purgatory may be the best place to go.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
Speaking of the dreaded friend zone, I'm actually in it right now...and kinda enjoying it. It's not nearly as bad when it's the "actually friends zone" rather than the passive-aggressive one-sided acquaintance zone, because, hey, friend. Plus, I'm pretty sure the world would explode if the two of us ever started smooching; she's basically a slightly geekier and much more musical version of me with an awesome cat.
Yes, a female Ariston. The sudden chill you felt upon reading that sentence was entirely justified.
I mean, yeah, I wouldn't mind if I found myself cuddled up next to her, but this ain't bad. A bit frustrating, sure, but petting the cat kinda helps calm that.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
It's not nearly as bad when it's the "actually friends zone" rather than the passive-aggressive one-sided acquaintance zone, because, hey, friend.
Totally.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
Just a wondering out loud moment. How important is it to have a similar(ish) theological outlook to any potential other half? I would describe myself as on the liberal end of conservative evangelicalism. I am however in a significantly more conservative church than myself (and well known for being conservative.) Therefore anyone I could meet in church type circles would be more conservative. I am at the moment happy to be single, but I do wonder if by staying within this sort of setting, I am ruling out the possibility of meeting someone. Thoughts people?
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
:
quote:
but I do wonder if by staying within this sort of setting, I am ruling out the possibility of meeting someone. Thoughts people? [/QB]
After 5 years of reading SoF daily, and registering months ago, he piles straight in with a first post on this thread.....
I think it can be a limiting factor if you want to socialise within the church environment. It's something I thought about when I moved back to the biggish city, and immediately defaulted back to one of the high temples of trad Anglo Catholicism. Some might have thought (without casting aspertions) that a single straight male might do ok in that environment, but when the ladies are thin on the ground in that place in the first place....
I suppose it comes down to where the worship side of things fits into your life. I tried a couple of other churches to try and broaden the circle of acquaintances (I was new back in town after a couple of years in the shires), but frankly decided the way they did things at my regular shack was more important to me. I kid myself that it will still happen for me eventually...
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Realising that I am actually much happier celibate....
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
Just a wondering out loud moment. How important is it to have a similar(ish) theological outlook to any potential other half? I would describe myself as on the liberal end of conservative evangelicalism. I am however in a significantly more conservative church than myself (and well known for being conservative.) Therefore anyone I could meet in church type circles would be more conservative. I am at the moment happy to be single, but I do wonder if by staying within this sort of setting, I am ruling out the possibility of meeting someone. Thoughts people?
IME, successful relationships require some commonality. But need that common thread be religion? One of the longest relationships I know are an RCC and an atheist. The RCC is very devout, multiple days a week church goer. Together for more than 50 years.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
I think the faith question is one of those things only you can decide, TBH. In relationships as in many other things, I think it's very, very important not to sin against your own conscience. Personally I know I couldn't have a clear conscience being in a relationship with someone who didn't share my faith to a large degree, which means that I (me, myself, personally) shouldn't do it. Because a clear conscience is a valuable thing, and also because I think it's unfair to the other person in the relationship if your conscience is uneasy about being with them.
Someone I know always swore blind that she would never, ever marry a non-Christian. She reached a certain age, the hormones kicked in, and she decided she was going to Find Her a Man™ and if she couldn't find a Christian, then a non-Christian would have to do. Which is what she did. Trouble is AFAICT her conscience hadn't changed its mind… She was very dishonest about what she was doing (she lied a lot to her friends about it, but I suspect no more than she was lying to herself) which is why I am fairly sure that her conscience didn't really like what she was up to. From what I saw, a lot of inner conflict and self-loathing lies in that direction, and I'm not sure that's the bedrock of a healthy relationship...
OTOH I know plenty of other people come to a different conclusion and look perfectly happy to me. If you have a conviction that being with the person is the right thing, then your conscience doesn't give you grief. Also if other people disapprove about it (which, let's face it, goes on in evo circles) you don't care.
Which is probably a really unhelpful way of saying that in the end I don't know if anyone else can ever really tell you the answer...
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
but I do wonder if by staying within this sort of setting, I am ruling out the possibility of meeting someone. Thoughts people?
After 5 years of reading SoF daily, and registering months ago, he piles straight in with a first post on this thread.....
<high fives betjemaniac> Style. quote:
I think it can be a limiting factor if you want to socialise within the church environment. It's something I thought about when I moved back to the biggish city, and immediately defaulted back to one of the high temples of trad Anglo Catholicism. Some might have thought (without casting aspertions) that a single straight male might do ok in that environment, but when the ladies are thin on the ground in that place in the first place....
I suppose it comes down to where the worship side of things fits into your life. I tried a couple of other churches to try and broaden the circle of acquaintances (I was new back in town after a couple of years in the shires), but frankly decided the way they did things at my regular shack was more important to me.
I thought of going to visit the big evo congregation down the road to see if there were some single straight guys there. But I felt a bit seedy, like I might be fishing. So I chickened out. I hang out at our lovely, diverse, welcoming, forgiving A/C shack, and hope that someone will maybe one day come along. quote:
I kid myself that it will still happen for me eventually...
No kidding. Keep the faith. There's someone who God has chosen to take care of you.
Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
It's something I thought about when I moved back to the biggish city, and immediately defaulted back to one of the high temples of trad Anglo Catholicism. Some might have thought (without casting aspertions) that a single straight male might do ok in that environment, but when the ladies are thin on the ground in that place in the first place....
Come to my AC place - heaps of fantastic single straight women and a paucity of single straight men.
(Though if your place is FiF style trad then I can see why women are thin on the ground.)
[coding]
[ 10. August 2013, 01:00: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
I do find that male:female ratios vary a lot from denomination to denomination. I would say that women outnumber men in most of the Anglican church (possibly not FiF places, but women outnumber men in the RCC so it's not out of the question). Men outnumber women in stricter non-conformist settings, eg Brethren, non-BUGB Baptists. I myself have only ever been in churches where women outnumber men by some margin.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
Yep, having grown up in a sort of high churchy progressive church (mostly women) UCCC - then went to evangelical churches, then Reformed leaning types (both of those mostly men) and then back to the UCC...I still see that. I am not looking for a man in my church since there are literally not the many men that are not married or gay...99% are unavailable to me.
I am looking online since when I go out, I don't meet guys much...and when I do, they are not usually my type. Usually they are looking for sexytimes not love. And usually they are not even tempting to me.
I have corresponded with some men and still have not gotten the spark going yet. One guy used a 7 year old picture of himself. I "liked" the photo..and he replied back. I found out he looked well, way different, when he volunteered his cell #. I googled that and was shocked at how he looked different. Bear in mind, I don't mind grey hair, some wrinkles and some balding. He left me a voice mail that sounded like my nephew going through puberty...with some "ummmmmmmmm....yeahhhs" in there. I was turned off, especially when he seemed to wonder why I did not pick up 9 PM at night (I was in bed asleep). So glad he never called again!
The ex I called "the Magician" has clicked on my profile (viewed me). Glad he doesn't email me on there. Glad to see he still lives at least 10 hours of driving distance away from me.
I won't give up but it's not easy trying the online thing.
[edited a little grammar there.]
[ 11. August 2013, 04:25: Message edited by: duchess ]
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
At a mother-and-toddlers group I went to, one of the women had a younger sister moving to the city. Younger sister had asked big sister to rank the city churches in order of potential-husband-finding. Big sister enlisted the help of the mother-and-toddler group, most of whom had a connection to one of several churches. We tried to rank our own churches one week, then asked around amongst our friends during the week, and produced the master list the following week.
I don't know what happened, whether younger sister did find a husband through church or not, but I thought there was a lot to be said for tapping into her big sister's network. The younger sister's attitude was that she was going to join a church anyway, and she might as well join one with a choice of eligible young men.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
Today I sent a facebook message asking a close female friend if a mutual friend (who I've only just started to get to know again after a few years of just not being in touch at all) is single and if she thinks I have any shot with her. Maybe a totally stupid idea, but at least I'd know one way or the other. Too often have asked someone out only to discover they already have a Significant Other.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
This is, perhaps, a slight tangent, but this past weekend I have been getting a number of…well, odd e-mails from a certain Well-Known Christian Dating Site (hereinafter "WKCDS") First, I got one welcoming me as a new member. The next one advised me that my profile was complete! The third e-mail notified me that I had received a message (from "Admin") and just had to click such-and-such to read it. The most recent e-mail shows some women that allegedly matched my search criteria.
Now a couple interesting points: I have NEVER signed up for WKCDS. I have never completed a profile for WKCDS. None of the e-mails sent to me actually confirm either a screen name or password for the site (so I could not log on even if I wanted to).
Actually, that last point strikes me as important: I don’t think somebody signed me up using my e-mail address because surely, if that had happened, ONE of those e-mails would tell me my password. I mean, isn't that common internet website practice?
I suspect this is just a very weird marketing campaign by WKCDS. Nevertheless, in a fit of caution, I have refused to click on anything on any of the e-mails. Basic computer security, you know.
But has anybody else here been the target of a mass e-mail campaign from a WKCDS?
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
lilBuddha found this youtube version of a Panorama programme showing the selling of details to dating agencies:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I know someone must access the actual link, but if you wish a head-start on the content, click here.
I wonder if it's that?
News story here
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
Possibly a variation on that tactic. It may well be a trick to get me to sign up--which makes one question the "Christian" portion of their business tactics. We'll see how many more e-mails they send me.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
May be a pshishing scam/spam email. Though it's rather sequential, so seems planned, rather than just mass emailing people.
You could always independently sent an enquiry email to whatever contact is listed on the legitimate website to check whether someone is posing as them and/or ask how they got your details.
Posted by Ann (# 94) on
:
Could just be that someone has opened an account and made a typo in their email address which just happens to make it yours. I've had that with a mobile phone company in the States. The poor person at the other end kept on fruitlessly applying for a PIN and it came to me; I had thirty two messages overnight! I didn't get any password data; I don't think web sign-ups always send the account details - they didn't in that case. I emailed the company to ask them to take my email off their records and to contact their customer a different way to get the right email which must have worked as I haven't heard since.
Trypo
[ 13. August 2013, 16:33: Message edited by: Ann ]
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
Possibly. It is true that I have two e-mail addresses (well, actually, more than two, but why complicate this?). One is for "personal" e-mails while the other is the one I use for commerce. In general, that means that most marketing goes to the commerce e-mail where it can be easily ignored. These e-mails are coming in on the "personal" e-mail. I won't say that NO business has it, but it is not the likely one that a marketing opportunity would select.
An address typo, though, would work.
Thank you all for the advice.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
I've had emails from one of the Christian sites this week, although I think I did sign up ages ago.
Seemed a bit out of the blue though, so I just deleted them.
I'm off the internet dating for a break. I need to try some meet-up groups and have been looking in to what's available. Last time I tried meet-ups I went to two events and got three phone numbers.
[ 14. August 2013, 23:28: Message edited by: Mad Cat ]
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
Meet-ups sound like a good plan. I've taken a break from internet dating - mainly because I can't be bothered - but am trying to think of other ways of meeting new people. A friend and I went to a Christian dating site event where the age range was meant to be 35-60 (technically I was actually underage, which amused me). Most of the men there seemed to be late 40s or in their 50s, we heard the word "retired" a bit too often and went home feeling young and highly amused. So I don't think I'll be trying that particular avenue again. Other meet-up events might be worth trying - where's the best place to start?
Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on
:
Well, I've taken the plunge. I feel a bit guilty as I can't say I'm actually 100% certain (if even 50% certain) it's a plunge I want to take as I've grown quite comfortable with the life of a single woman with growing-up kids and am a bit too used to that role. But I've always had a good male friend in my life and I realise I really do miss male company.
With my youngest getting older now and me having no intentions of keeping him home longterm (!), maybe the time is right to start broadening my horizons again (and at least it might focus my attention away from feeling broody for another child ) The tough part is dealing with the feeling of uncertainty - all tangled up with the fear that nobody will even click on my profile: a life of falling for men who weren't interested and being fallen for by men who were far from right for me, and a fear of taking risks which involve other peoples' feelings aren't exactly the best foundation for setting out on this trail! Still, my cat loves me, and that's a good start. And I can honestly say that I'm no longer at the point where the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Being single suits me just fine most of the time. (Used to joke that the right man for me would probably be a long distance lorry driver so I could have the best of both worlds!)
Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Smudgie:
Well, I've taken the plunge. <snip>
Woo hoo. Go you. Are you all signed up to an internet dating site? Or just taking the first mental plunge? Good luck anyway.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Aaaannnnnd....<bump>.
How are things, folks?
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
I'm trying to work out if i like being single, if not what am I prepared to do about it? (Also if not what are my non-negotiables.)
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
At the moment I think I'm ok being single. I'm lacking the energy to do much about it anyway - work's been a bit tough of late. It's hard watching all my single friends pair up as so many of them have done this year though! I'm not in the right frame of mind for internet dating and struggle to think of where to start for anything else, so will just plod on. I don't think it helps that I'm still thinking about the disorganised man from some months ago - every so often I have conversations with friends and realise the last time I discussed that topic was with him.
Actually, I think my current feeling is that that my attitude to the whole dating thing can be summed up as "meh"!
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
To be honest, I find that mentioning one's faith on a secular dating site means that non-religious people are just not interested, whether heterosexual or otherwise - and generally most of the Christians I find on dating sites (Christian or secular) are more conservative than I am and usually evangelical - I don't think I've ever come across an anglo-catholic. Where do all the single Affirming Catholics hide?
As a computer geek I would say this might be a business opportunity. At the very least, as a friend of mine pointed out, if you run the website you get first chance.
[ 27. August 2013, 00:00: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I should probably answer my own question, shouldn't I? I am...confused. But that's kind of my default.
I have the most loving and lovely person in my life--a good, generous, intelligent, thoughtful man, who does all the things that Proper Partners are meant to do.
And I...don't feel for him what he deserves. I feel it, instead, for someone else--for my Schrodinger-Friend, the will-we-or-won't-we one where we decided we wouldn't. Who is still one of my closest friends, who doesn't know that I still hold a torch for her. Who I keep trying to quit caring about, but then...we fall back into old patterns, and I let myself care in a way that I shouldn't.
Humanity. Grr. Argh.
PS: For the record, my relationship with Exceptionally Good Man is an open one--his preference, which I'm quite glad of, actually, because I _want_ him to have more love in his life than I feel, myself, able to give him. My goodness, I feel like I need to drop the acronym about the allegedly Christian Website...
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Infinite Monkey, don't really know what to say having never had a partner, but
I think for me it's learning to distinguish between people I find attractive and wanting a relationship with them - there is someone I find attractive but at the moment I'm perfectly happy to just enjoy our friendship and see where it goes. Would really love a partner - but I'm also really enjoying my life and there's lots of other things I want to do.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
infinite_monkey, I also don't know what to say. Except what has already probably occurred to you: Beware of the "Grass Is Greener" syndrome.
I mean, you describe your current partner as "loving and lovely," "good, generous, intelligent, thoughtful" and an "Exceptionally Good Man." You clearly care for him. Care for him so much that you don't feel that you are giving him enough love in return.
The thing is, when you truly, truly love somebody, I think you always feel like you aren't doing enough for them. I know I don't feel good enough for my Penelope.
By contrast, the other that you feel attraction for is the hot flame. I am sure you feel it, but how long will it last if you both give in to it? Is the charm of it actually the unrequited nature of that attraction?
There is a song (the name of which escapes me) which gives an extended metaphor for love connected to wood burning. The wife wants the excitement of logs that burn quick and fast, while the husband tells her that slow-burning logs are what keeps you warm through the cold night. Neither is "wrong" per se--each has its benefit. But, IMHO, a slow burning love that lasts throughout everything that the long cold night of our lives throws at us--that is priceless.
I wish you well.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Thank you kindly, Hedgehog and Jade. I appreciate the candles, and the most excellent food for thought.
I don't know, ultimately, how things will shake out. But I am finding myself increasingly aware of the steady, patient goodness of the Exceptionally Good Man...and I am letting myself feel a bit more drawn to it.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
PS: For the record, my relationship with Exceptionally Good Man is an open one--his preference, which I'm quite glad of, actually, because I _want_ him to have more love in his life than I feel, myself, able to give him. My goodness, I feel like I need to drop the acronym about the allegedly Christian Website...
You're not the first poly/open person on this thread, and I'm sure you won't be the last
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
I have read not one but two articles today on the fact that women are still losing out if they have children and being pushed into making a choice between career and baby. Now, that's really a topic for a different thread, but it did make me think. I've acquired a good education and have a reasonable career (thus far, anyway), but one of the articles referenced the Liz Lochhead poem The Choosing - find it here but ignore the fact it's an exam paper! And that made me wonder, did I inadvertently choose to be perpetually single? Or am I just unlucky with relationships? I certainly don't feel like it's been a matter of choice, although I do wonder if it's entirely my own fault somehow, somewhere along the line.
I'm feeling a bit blue anyway as work is going badly, so this is probably just me feeling sorry for myself! But I thought I'd share it nonetheless .
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
:
not sure if this makes you feel any better, but the number of single men should be roughly similar to the number of single women, and the men haven't been faced with the same baby choice, inadvertent or otherwise. So I'd guess that's not the reason.
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
:
I think women with education probably have more options to explore other aspects of life other than just getting partnered and settling down. But the two are in no way exclusive of each other. More of my university educated female friends are married than not. But some of the most able are not and I wonder if it is because the pool of men who would be a suitable equal partner to them is much more limited and they perhaps have the sense to realise that they are better off single than to be in an unequal relationship.
[ 04. September 2013, 20:30: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
More of my university educated female friends are married than not. But some of the most able are not and I wonder if it is because the pool of men who would be a suitable equal partner to them is much more limited and they perhaps have the sense to realise that they are better off single than to be in an unequal relationship.
I'm not sure I agree with your final conclusion. I'm in the final stages of a PhD. My boyfriend never had the chance to go to university, but is nonetheless a bright and engaging individual. A previous romantic interest did go to uni but via a far more vocational route, and had not previously counted academic scientists among his friends. To both, my status is/was an intriguing novelty rather than a threat.
In an odd sort of way, I've found more acceptance (in the context of relationships) of my highly educated state from people with far less academically driven backgrounds than I have from men who are university educated but not to an equivalent level to me. I've been rejected/overlooked on occasions by highly educated/extremely intelligent men, who have often been in pursuit of someone more aesthetically pleasing than myself. I've questioned before on this thread whether women who display strengths in areas some men consider their domain (be it technical subjects, or expression of humour) are considered less desirable than women who are of a more 'traditional' feminine type.
Where it has worked well with my boyfriend I wonder whether there's an element of it being that our educational experiences are sufficiently divergent that it is reduced to a single tick box on the list of ways we differ. Whereas with someone who had more formal education, but not quite as much as me, it might feature more highly as a conflict or a source of inequality or perceived competition?
So I would say to a highly educated single woman who wanted a relationship, not necessarily to get stuck with the notion that one's partner must be equally qualified. There may be more acceptance to be had elsewhere. And it doesn't have to represent a compromise in standards.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
In an odd sort of way, I've found more acceptance (in the context of relationships) of my highly educated state from people with far less academically driven backgrounds than I have from men who are university educated but not to an equivalent level to me. I've been rejected/overlooked on occasions by highly educated/extremely intelligent men, who have often been in pursuit of someone more aesthetically pleasing than myself. I've questioned before on this thread whether women who display strengths in areas some men consider their domain (be it technical subjects, or expression of humour) are considered less desirable than women who are of a more 'traditional' feminine type.
Where it has worked well with my boyfriend I wonder whether there's an element of it being that our educational experiences are sufficiently divergent that it is reduced to a single tick box on the list of ways we differ. Whereas with someone who had more formal education, but not quite as much as me, it might feature more highly as a conflict or a source of inequality or perceived competition?
Competition, yep. IME, I would not limit this ideology to men.
quote:
Originally posted by Hazey*Jane:
So I would say to a highly educated single woman who wanted a relationship, not necessarily to get stuck with the notion that one's partner must be equally qualified. There may be more acceptance to be had elsewhere. And it doesn't have to represent a compromise in standards.
There is the notion, amongst many formally educated, that a formal education is inherently superior to informal. This is a limiting viewpoint, IMO.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There is the notion, amongst many formally educated, that a formal education is inherently superior to informal. This is a limiting viewpoint, IMO.
Agreed. What the boyfriend lacks in paper qualifications he certainly doesn't in general knowledge and smarts. I think it also helps that I regard what he does for a living as just as important and valid as what I do (and the stresses that go with it). These differences don't have to matter unless you make an issue of them.
[ 04. September 2013, 23:10: Message edited by: Hazey*Jane ]
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Hazey Jane: quote:
So I would say to a highly educated single woman who wanted a relationship, not necessarily to get stuck with the notion that one's partner must be equally qualified. There may be more acceptance to be had elsewhere. And it doesn't have to represent a compromise in standards.
This is an important point. I know two women who are as highly educated as me who ended up marrying men who didn't go to university. Both couples seem very happy.
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
:
Just to clarify I wasn't talking about equal formal qualifications, but more about finding someone who wouldn't feel threatened by their abilities and who would have enough in common to sustain a relationship in the long term. For someone with a wide range of intellectual interests I would imagine it would be quite frustrating to have a partner who wasn't interested in them, but this is speculation on my part!
[ 05. September 2013, 09:25: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
There is no one formula for a happy relationship.
In my experience, the bulk of the happy, long-term relationships have intersecting areas of interest as one factor in their equation.
Posted by chive (# 208) on
:
I'm happy being single. I don't want a relationship. I like the way my life is and don't want someone else in it bothering me and making me work round them. I love solitude and crave it when I'm with other people.
Why why why do my bloody family, despite having this explained to them on many occasions still keep asking me if I've found anyone nice yet? My sister even threatened to sign me up to online dating so she could pick people for me. Why is it apparently socially unacceptable to be single in your late thirties and to be fine about this?
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
I'm happy being single. I don't want a relationship. I like the way my life is and don't want someone else in it bothering me and making me work round them. I love solitude and crave it when I'm with other people.
Why why why do my bloody family, despite having this explained to them on many occasions still keep asking me if I've found anyone nice yet? My sister even threatened to sign me up to online dating so she could pick people for me. Why is it apparently socially unacceptable to be single in your late thirties and to be fine about this?
Maybe, pace lilbuddha, you could find another who also likes singlehood and designate each other as partners, thus satisfying those on the outside while leaving both of you you free to get on with life as before?
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Lucia: quote:
Just to clarify I wasn't talking about equal formal qualifications...
Yes, I got that, but I do know people who refuse to consider some potential partners on the basis of how many qualifications they have; in fact one of the aforementioned friends encountered opposition from her parents who thought her Other Half wasn't 'good enough' for her. You're quite right though; being intelligent and/or interesting doesn't always correlate with paper qualifications.
I also know someone (thin) who expresses herself quite freely on the subject of Single Men Who Refuse To Go Out With Overweight Women. However, as she is a Single Woman Who Refuses To Go Out With Short Men she is not really in a position to cast the first stone.
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
:
Yes it's one thing to have a preference for certain physical attributes that we find attractive but to refuse to even consider someone who doesn't have that particular physical characteristic is a bit limiting. I had a preference for taller men and rather liked beards (you can blame my first boyfriend for that) but before I married I went out with a number of men of varying heights and certainly rather liked one guy who was decidedly short (he wasn't interested!), and there was a distinct lack of beards among them.
However I have to confess hubby is 6'5" and has had a beard ever since I met him.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
... happy, long-term relationships have intersecting areas of interest as one factor in their equation.
That makes perfect sense to me. What brought my husband and me together was a mutual interest in music (he was teaching it, I was learning it).
Then I discovered that he could make me laugh ...
We celebrated our silver wedding anniversary in July.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
...Then I discovered that he could make me laugh ...
I think this is one of the most important things in any relationship, the ability to laugh together.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
:
I just signed up for a meetup group - I'm excited!
It's tag line is 'high brow low brow' and the events are a mixture of arts and cultural stuff, but approached in a down to earth way (??!)
I've just booked for their next meetup - a play at The Traverse, one of my favourite theatres. I'm looking forward to it.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Excellent, Mad Cat! Meetups have been good to me. My Spanish Language one has a number of good events (and, at times, attractive attendees....), and I got introduced to a meditation class that I'm going to on an ongoing basis through the Singles one.
Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on
:
Bump!
So: does no news mean that "no news is good news"?
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
Bump!
So: does no news mean that "no news is good news"?
In my case more an inability to put anything in to words!
I'm fortunate in that I enjoy being single, but that doesn't mean that there isn't part of me that would like to be in a relationship. I had been getting to know better a guy who I'm still sure was interested, but he is now pretty much not talking to me. I have a pretty good idea why, and my attitude is, I'm not changing who I am so if he can't deal with it, it's his loss. I am however feeling sad that it might mean that we can't just be friends. For various reasons, that would require an honest conversation that I can't see happening! Ahh well such is life.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Nothing doing, and can't be bothered to try online dating again - it just doesn't work for me. Sigh.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I'm mostly working on myself, trying to address some inner things that get in the way of my own comfort.
The boy and I had a good talk about a month back, dialing down the romantic expectations about our relationship because I realized that the physical attraction just wasn't there for me--it's now pretty much 'friends, with backrubs', and no, backrubs isn't a metaphor. Maybe things will change for us, maybe they won't--he has my blessing to do whatever makes sense for him, and we're ongoingly honest with each other, which is nice.
Still, grr argh, struggling with attraction to Schrodinger Friend--who is coming over for dinner and pumpkin carving in ten minutes, who continues to be a big part of my life (and vice versa). Not pushing for anything to happen in that area: I'm here if she changes, I'm here if she doesn't, we'll be whatever we're both meant to be.
Best to all--let's keep this thread alive!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
How do you even find 'friends with backrubs' - it's not something I've ever encountered as an option. But then I struggle to find men amongst my interests anyway? There's SCM but most of the men have partners (because that's what happens in all Christian organisations containing young people it seems). Actually my uni's CU has quite a number of young men but none I'd touch with a bargepole due to CU unpleasantness.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
Have a friend who is seriously attractive. I asked her out a few months ago, and she said that due to stuff going on in her life (and she had had some fairly major changes) she wasn't ready to date at that time. I accepted that. During the last few months, her life has settled down again. My attraction to her has grown immensely. I'm very very gently trying to push our friendship a little bit further, and sometimes it seems like she's interested, and then the next there is nothing. Just don't know what on earth to do. Not sure if a few months ago that was a nice brush-off, or whether she still is genuinely not ready to date. *sigh*
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
What I would do is make it fun, make it interesting. I'd find something that is fun and different and ask her along to that. I don't know, some kind of cultural festival with jugglers on stilts, or people dressed in Medieval clothes, or different kinds of food from all over the world. Some place with lots of different things to do and see.
Just call her: "Hey, I'm going to this really interesting thing, want to go along?" If she says yes, then go together to this place and once again, relax and have fun. Don't be needy for her attention, but show that you can enjoy yourself. When you're feeling more confident, make some playful hints to her.
[ 07. November 2013, 12:25: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What I would do is make it fun, make it interesting. I'd find something that is fun and different and ask her along to that. I don't know, some kind of cultural festival with jugglers on stilts, or people dressed in Medieval clothes, or different kinds of food from all over the world. Some place with lots of different things to do and see.
Just call her: "Hey, I'm going to this really interesting thing, want to go along?" If she says yes, then go together to this place and once again, relax and have fun. Don't be needy for her attention, but show that you can enjoy yourself. When you're feeling more confident, make some playful hints to her.
I think this is excellent advice although I'd hold back on the playful hints in case they come over as a pressure. Just concentrate on enjoying time together and getting to know each other, and be a listening ear if she wants to talk.
Nen - vicariously enjoying this thread as an old married who likes being reminded about how the dating game goes.
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
... I'm very very gently trying to push our friendship a little bit further, and sometimes it seems like she's interested, and then the next there is nothing. Just don't know what on earth to do. Not sure if a few months ago that was a nice brush-off, or whether she still is genuinely not ready to date. *sigh*
Yeah, I think the hinting or ambiguous invitations might actually be pressure-ish. It will just come off as passive-aggressive, since she already knows you have ulterior motives. <insert Mr. Burns hand-rubbing here>
It might be worth asking her to clarify whether she really meant "not right now" or actually meant "never". As long as you're straightforward about it and make it clear that you won't sulk about her answer. *And* that you'll never bring it up again if she asks you not to. Low pressure is important.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
Good advice. When I say pushing our friendship, I was merely making sure that she was invited to stuff that my close friends (of both genders) and I were doing... board game nights, meals out, bible study, etc. Stuff that she had never really been a part of, since she was a friend from a different social group, who I hadn't realised was at all serious about her faith until relatively recently. I was being careful to make sure that if she said she wanted to be friends, that she was included in my circle of friends, and had plenty of time to hang out with me in a group setting, no pressure.
It's starting to look like she might have appreciated it, since last night had a facebook message from her, and she's the one suggesting one-on-one time hanging out doing stuff (she wants me to teach her to bake--hardly a quick job!) so maybe despite my nerves and stress, taking a complete step back, including her and letting her set the pace may have been a good move. Definitely still keeping things light at the moment, but, if nothing else, I've made a really close friend. And if more happens,
Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on
:
"Love is friendship that has caught fire..."
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on
:
Hooray! I've used the "teach me to bake" excuse on a fellow or two myself. Best of luck, sir.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
I can see lots of opportunities in a 'teach me to bake' session. You're close together, sometimes your hands just have to touch... And I definitely wouldn't miss an opportunity to sling a small piece of dough towards her after she's made a bit of fun of me.
But I guess that would be 'pressure'
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
Hooray! I've used the "teach me to bake" excuse on a fellow or two myself. Best of luck, sir.
The fact that you've used it multiple times means they probably weren't very good teachers, no?
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on
:
Well, the excuse only needed to work long enough to get me into their... ahem... kitchens.
I actually taught myself to bake from America's Test Kitchen some years later, after I was married. Much easier to learn peacefully from PBS than when under the influence of the "raging horn" (to quote from another thread).
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
Much easier to learn peacefully from PBS than when under the influence of the "raging horn" (to quote from another thread).
But what else do you call it?
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
"Love is friendship that has caught fire..."
As long as it's only the friendship that catches fire, not Marsman and his ladyfriend's baking ...
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
:
This'll give you all a little laugh.
In the last couple of months I've started going to church again as part of my attempt to get my life back. But it's slow going. I'm not sure what I believe most days, I'm fighting feelings of loneliness and depression, and whilst I'm slowly getting to know new people it feels glacially slow.
One recent highlight however was that I went to visit an old friend last weekend. It was good to see him, we went out, ate a meal, then whisky was consumed and talk turned to my lack of a love life. Now Andy is one of my oldest and best friends but he's also the kind of person who likes to throw petrol on a fire to watch the flames. Plus he was drinking too. Anyway somehow at the end of this I found myself having signed up to not one but two online dating sites, one specifically Christian one not.
Whisky + Smart Phone = unwise decisions
Anyway, it was a trial membership only and in the sober light of day I thought whilst I recognise where the impulse comes from, I'm not ready yet. I need to build a social life of friends first. So I figured I'd just let the thing expire. This morning I get an email saying someone has "waved" at me. She describes herself as "Baptist" and her location is the same town as me, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to the only Baptist church in town. She looks a little familiar. So...
I think I've just used a website to advertise the fact that I'm single to someone who sits a couple of pews away. Feels a little awkward. Actually very awkward because while she seems nice enough I'm very unlikely to do anything about it given where I'm at.
Oh well.
Did I mention, Whisky - bad!
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
This morning I get an email saying someone has "waved" at me. She describes herself as "Baptist" and her location is the same town as me, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to the only Baptist church in town. She looks a little familiar. So...
I think I've just used a website to advertise the fact that I'm single to someone who sits a couple of pews away. Feels a little awkward. Actually very awkward because while she seems nice enough I'm very unlikely to do anything about it given where I'm at.
Oh well.
Did I mention, Whisky - bad!
I wouldn't be surprised if there's someone else in the church who feels a whole lot like you. Who knows, she may even have had a couple of glasses before "waving". I doubt you're the only Baptist that drinks anyway.
Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on
:
A friend of mine did exactly that (well it wasn’t whisky but same principle) she only signed up for the trial and met her life partner…
If you are not ready to meet anybody yet, can you say explain what you did and say you were looking to expand your social circle and are looking for friends?
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
If you are not ready to meet anybody yet, can you say explain what you did and say you were looking to expand your social circle and are looking for friends?
I'm sure I can. I'm smiling about it rather than worried. Which itself is a bit of a miracle (I tend to get anxious about stuff).
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
There are several people from my church on one of the big Christian dating websites. I know I've seen some of the guys and they must have seen me, but no-one ever mentions it! (Actually, I'm quite relieved they never mention it, and my profile's hidden at the moment anyway). It's probably just a "hello! You here too?" more than anything else, and if you don't say anything she probably won't either.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Just be grateful to be in a church with single people who aren't elderly
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
I caught up with a friend today who was in town for the first time since her wedding in the summer. It was lovely to see her and there were several of us there, then the other single person left and I realised I was sitting with a newly married person, a newly engaged person and a newly coupled-up person! I felt very single, even though I know I'm not even in the right head-space to be looking at the moment - it's been a tough year at work and I don't think I could handle the bad sides of dating at the moment (the date who ignored me til I went away earlier in the year has done little for my confidence). It was just one of those moments where I felt a bit like the odd-one-out, even though none of my friends would have dreamed of considering me to be. It's left me a bit mope-y, so I've eaten a substantial amount of chocolate and watched a lot of West Wing to cheer myself up. So far, this has proved a winning strategy!
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
Well timetabling is not my friend at the moment. My friend and I keep utterly failing to find time to actually hang out and do our baking. *sigh*. I was so excited at her suggesting we spend some time one-on-one, and as of yet, no chance. I've kept everything low-key, no pressure, let her set the timetable, but she's just bailed on tomorrow as something has come up with her family, I think.
I think she's scared, but the mixed signals are just incredibly frustrating. Equally I don't want to push her away by being at all pushy since I get the distinct feeling if I push at all beyond her timeable she'll recluse, so I'm just left feeling abso-bloody-lutely useless. I hate being patient.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I hear you on the frustrating. It sounds, though, like what you're doing is the best course of action--you've made it clear that you would enjoy spending time with her, and you're honoring her timetable on that. I would wait until you two were spending a decent bit of time actually together to seek clarity on her feelings, thoughts, intentions, etc--that clarity may develop organically, without the need for a conversation about mixed signals or whatnot. For now, hard as it is, I'd try to interpret ALL signals as platonic ones, and try to put only the energy into this that I would to any other friendship. More might develop, but friendship is its own little spark to take care of--and a lot of times, breathing room around the little spark is what helps it to grow.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
Bump!
So: does no news mean that "no news is good news"?
In my case more an inability to put anything in to words!
I'm fortunate in that I enjoy being single, but that doesn't mean that there isn't part of me that would like to be in a relationship. I had been getting to know better a guy who I'm still sure was interested, but he is now pretty much not talking to me. I have a pretty good idea why, and my attitude is, I'm not changing who I am so if he can't deal with it, it's his loss. I am however feeling sad that it might mean that we can't just be friends. For various reasons, that would require an honest conversation that I can't see happening! Ahh well such is life.
Just re-reading this and thought I would do an update. Turns out saying to him, we were friends now we are not, was all that was needed. I'm trying to process what I think about him, but at least we are back to being friends which is good.
How's everyone else?
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
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Well, here I am, thirty years, and still single, with no partner. I try to be happy for my partnered friends, but sometimes I find it irritating when they say "God has blessed me with a wonderful man/woman."
A part of me wonders, "Why hasn't God blessed me in the same fashion?"
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Not sure if it helps, but God did not bless them. That is poor theology. I am not sure how to do this in a non-purgatorial fashion, but don't think of it as God forsaking your happiness. If s/he exists as you believe, s/he is not operating a matchmaking clinic.
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
How's everyone else?
Since you asked
It's now been six months since the woman I wanted to be with got back together with her ex. It seems like a lot of people predicted, myself included, that after a bumpy start they're going to do well together. As far as I can tell they're doing well.
I feel like I should be over her by now but I'm not really. However I have noticed that I tend to get more nostalgic and have feelings of missing her when my mood is low anyway. I don't think Christmas/New Year and all the inevitable self-assessment helps.
A friend of mine told me back in July that it'd probably take at least a year to be properly over her. At the time I thought he was vastly over-estimating it but now I'm almost hoping he's right. The problem is that as well as everything else she was my closest and best friend and I've struggled without her support. I've been trying to make other friends and build up support structures elsewhere but it's slow going.
Oh dear this is all a bit negative isn't it?
I don't think I'm really in the market for a relationship right now but maybe in a few months. I do think things will improve.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
...most of the men have partners (because that's what happens in all Christian organisations containing young people it seems).
Didn't to me when I was young. Or lots of my friends. Bit of a myth I think. Certainly more women then men in church, then as now, but many, maybe most, had and have boyfriends or husbands who don't come to church. (All those kids in our congregation have to have had fathers somewhere!)
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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Just dropping by to moan about the evangelical church, and there obsession that if you speak to a member of the opposite sex, you must be about to get married to them. How are you meant to get to know anyone, to think about if there is potential for it to go somewhere.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
...most of the men have partners (because that's what happens in all Christian organisations containing young people it seems).
Didn't to me when I was young. Or lots of my friends. Bit of a myth I think. Certainly more women then men in church, then as now, but many, maybe most, had and have boyfriends or husbands who don't come to church. (All those kids in our congregation have to have had fathers somewhere!)
It's certainly true in my experience. Student-heavy churches IME tend to have slightly more men than women, though YMMV.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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This might be tangentially related, but, as it deals with the aftermath of breakups/rejection, here goes:
There's a female friend of mine I had a thing for a few months back (okay, this summer, shuddup, I'm really bad at this) but didn't want to because it might make things awkward, and, guess what, it made things awkward, she pulled away, I started swearing, she got a boyfriend, I got nuttin', etc, etc, etc, I done fucked up, sadness and despair, boo hoo, tear. The usual.
That's not the problem. I mean, it's a problem, but it's my problem, and my problems are kinda boring and repetitive.
No, the real problem is that she has two of my books at her place* that I gave her at the beginning of the summer and that I know she didn't really have much of a chance to read before her doctoral program started. I kind of want my books back (okay, really want my damn books back), and waiting for her and her boyfriend to break up doesn't seem like the best (or most charitable!) course of action. So how the Hell do I get my stuff from someone who's too fucking busy and vice versa without making an awkward situation worse?
*For those wondering, those would be an omnibus volume of Douglas Adams Hitchhiker's series (weirdly enough, the second copy I'd have lost because of a breakup), and Yukio Mishima's The Temple of the Golden Pavilion that I think a friend of mine who's smart, sarcastic, incredibly gorgeous, athletic, stuck in a dead-end job that's nowhere near worthy of her, has a dead sexy Felt road bike and whom I do not have any romantic feelings for at all, do not tell me otherwise, lalala, I can't hear you, I really can't afford to fuck up ANOTHER friendship, thankyou would really like. Also, if she had the book, it would mean that I could never even think of hitting on her, lest I lose it again, so motivation to stay on the straight and narrow!
Note to self, for future reference (you know, in case Hell freezes over or comet starts cuddling the happy little fluffy bunnies): only give out books to girls you know aren't going to dump you.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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No solid advice, but I feel you. At one point in the aftermath of my Schrodinger's Relationship, I actually bought myself a new copy of Difficult Conversations because I didn't have the guts to ask her for my book back.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Every lend is a gift given. If it returns, it is a gift received. Accepting this has saved various relationships for me. If I cannot bear an item's loss, it does not get lent.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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In my 20's I lent a copy of Asimov's Treasury of Humor to the friend of a guy I was dating. When he broke up with me to go back to his old girlfriend, he and the friend I loaned the book to began trash-talking me and phone-harassing me so bad that I didn't dare go over her house to pick up the book,as she suggested-- I was afraid they would be waiting for me.
The book itself I could (and did) pick up again, but what made this a treasure is my grandfather had scribbled notes for his comedy routines in the front and back leafs, and the margins.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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That sucks, Kelly.
I have never been that generous as to loan such a thing to anyone.
To be honest, I do not tend to leave anything behind either. Several reasons, not least is one ex using the ruse of returning a picnic rug to re-kindle a relationship that they ended. Crazy person.
ETA, the ex was crazy, not you, Kelly.
[ 07. January 2014, 05:42: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
So how the Hell do I get my stuff from someone who's too fucking busy and vice versa without making an awkward situation worse.
Pay for a courier to pick it up from her house/Work?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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That's what I was thinking, too, third party assistance.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
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I hate how I can not think about my fairly serious ex-girlfriend for months. Then a mutual friend goes to something she's at, and pictures get posted on facebook and once again I feel like crap for days on end because I miss her so much, over two years later.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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I ran into my ex's best friend and his wife on NYE, just before the party I went to. I sneaked around and avoided them. It's been, like 10 years.
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
I hate how I can not think about my fairly serious ex-girlfriend for months. Then a mutual friend goes to something she's at, and pictures get posted on facebook and once again I feel like crap for days on end because I miss her so much, over two years later.
When you're still doing it in two years' time, welcome to my world. It can best be avoided by defriending mutual friends (seriously, if they're that good friends the fact you don't see their every waking move on facebook won't matter). The fact that mine also makes semi-regular appearances in the national press means I have also given up on the national press....
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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Other than the obvious ask them, is there any way of working out if someone is interested? (I'm still trying to work out if the bloke I'm getting to know better, just wants to be friends, or is looking for it to go somewhere else.)
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Manage to work out that and you can make your fortune advising others.
Be nice if it were more like animals: display, decide, get on with it.
do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight
[ 26. January 2014, 16:54: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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I am gonna have NIGHTMARES about that first bird, with the oblong black frill thing and the stampy, stampy feet.
Surfing Madness, do you feel an interest yourself? I'm assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the bloke, if he does, will eventually show his hand, as it were. Sooner or later, these things do tend to come out, though there's always the possibility of asking someone who knows him if you'd like to know more, faster.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
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Just asking can work. If they respond to it then you have set up an expectation of communicating with words, which personally I much prefer to having to decode signals.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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Thanks for the advice, some of it more helpful than others! One of the problems is that for various reasons, it would be awkward if we fell out, which there is always the possibility of if there is a discussion about how we feel, and the other one doesn't feel the same.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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You don't have to come out and say how you feel. You can indicate interest in more subtle ways. You can say something like "I'm really enjoying getting to know you better" and see how he responds.
More details would be helpful. What has happened so far? How does he behave toward you?
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
You don't have to come out and say how you feel. You can indicate interest in more subtle ways. You can say something like "I'm really enjoying getting to know you better" and see how he responds.
Too subtle. He's a man. He'll misinterpret that totally. If he's an egotistical evil stalker monster he'll take it as licence to do as he likes. If he's whatever we call a normal reasonably decent bloke these days (now that "nice guy" has become, in the US blogosphere anyway, a code for "egotistical evil stalker monster") he'll assume you can't really fancy him and you're just being nice. Or polite. Or kind, or something.
If you are going to be direct you need to be direct and unmistakable. Which is of course really difficult as its very embarrassing if unreciprocated. Pretty much destroys whatever normal friendly relationship you might have had otherwise.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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Have you all gone out on a date?
I think the "I kind of like you and I want to know if there is potential for something here" conversation, perhaps counter-intuitively, comes after a few dates. The fun part of the first few dates is the battle to see who can best balance being cool and coy with being flirty- that's how we dance, that's our version of showing off our feathers.
So I might suggest, if you haven't already, that you ask around among your friends for a cool casual thing you could do with a guy you kind of like (a cool museum is a good place to start) and just invite him out some afternoon. I know that seems very forward, but it actually allows him a lot more leeway to relax and feel things out for himself than confronting him with your feelings, and as long as you are cool and casual about it, it makes him work for it if he decides you are worth it, which will make it better for him when you actually do have the conversation.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
If you are going to be direct you need to be direct and unmistakable. Which is of course really difficult as its very embarrassing if unreciprocated. Pretty much destroys whatever normal friendly relationship you might have had otherwise.
I dunno about "pretty much destroys"--it changes the dynamics a bit, may require some time and shifting around, but I and most people I know have moved successfully past this kind of conversation with people who remain good and treasured friends. (My closest friend right now is one I went through this with.)
Especially if you're in the early stages of getting to know a person and trying to figure out what path you'll both take, I think a "I fancy you a bit/ oh crap, you don't feel the same/ wanna carry on as friends then?", if done without too much hand-wringing, can be a blip you move easily past.
Though I reckon there are usually ways of avoiding the conversation and figuring things out without being so direct.
Keep us posted, Surfing Madness! May things become clear, if clarity's desired, or, if not, may you enjoy the ambiguity.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
So I might suggest, if you haven't already, that you ask around among your friends for a cool casual thing you could do with a guy you kind of like (a cool museum is a good place to start) and just invite him out some afternoon.
Or I'd suggest deciding on something you'd really like to do and then saying to him, "I really fancy going to.... Would you like to come with me?" This opens the door to all sorts of possible conversations, such as "Yes, I'd be really interested, when were you thinking of going?" or "That wouldn't really be my choice but do you fancy going to... with me?" or "I wouldn't choose that but if it's with you... " or "No thanks."
Good luck.
Nen - old married diving back into lurker mode.
[ 28. January 2014, 17:01: Message edited by: Nenya ]
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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Thanks for all your advice! There is nothing interesting to do where we live. (I know one of my friends was moaning about the lack of things to do when people come to visit.) That combined with the fact I work shifts makes anything as logical as suggesting we do something together complicated.
We meet up about once every 3-4 weeks for coffee or dinner. (Usually before or after something to do with church.) I'm aware that we are good friends, and as he is very much an introvert, and also fairly traditional in his thinking, I'm pretty sure that he hasn't got to be this good a friend with a female before. One of my friend described when she saw us together "it's as if you both want the other one to say how they feel, then you can work out how you feel." Sorry that is just a load of waffle!!
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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If it gives you any inspiration, my wife had to ask me out the first two times- I am painfully shy, and didn't really come out of my shell until I started dating her. So maybe he really needs you to make the first move. I'd still say you should play it cool if you do ask him out, rather than going into the "do you want to date me?" conversation right off the bat- you still want him to have to chase you. Just start by changing two characteristics of your previous meetings- 1) We are out together because we just want to be, not because we were going to church anyway; and 2) no one else from church gets to come- and see if it allows the two of you to be a little more flirty.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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Just dropping by to moan. We haven't held a discussion, but for various reasons am pretty sure that he doesn't want anything other than friendship. This week I have also realised how much I do actually like him, and can see the possibility of a future with him. It just all feels a bit crap at the moment.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Our first date was a Saturday afternoon visit to a museum, with a coffee shop attached. I had no idea if I had been asked out on a date, or as a "just friends" meet-up.
Second date was ten-pin bowling, which was also ambiguous.
Third date was to a fairly serious film at the cinema - I still had no clue whether this was a date or not.
I really, really wanted us to be dating, but he remained inscrutable - keen to suggest we meet up, but not giving any indication whether he regarded me as a "friend" or a "girlfriend."
Four weeks and about ten ambiguous "dates" later, we first held hands while walking and I deduced we were dating.
This was confirmed when one of his flatmates asked him if we were dating and he said "yes." His flatmate helpfully passed this information on to me. It was good to know.
Silver wedding anniversary this month.
What are the "various reasons" that make you pretty sure he doesn't want anything other than friendship? Perhaps he's just ultra-cautious?
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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I'm still waiting for Mr. C. to ask me to marry him - we celebrated our 30th wedding anniversary last year. You could always wait for a leap year, or be bold and brave and go for it now!
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
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Chorister
You beat my weight to be offered employment with my current employer. Only been in the job over twenty years.
Jengie
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
keen to suggest we meet up, but not giving any indication whether he regarded me as a "friend" or a "girlfriend."
I've got the same thing - from the person I text/skype with almost every day, and sleep with about twice a month. Hmmmmmm.
Edit: changed f-word to "sleep with" so this thread won't trip anyone's work internet filters.
[ 12. February 2014, 23:10: Message edited by: ecumaniac ]
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I'm still waiting for Mr. C. to ask me to marry him ...
D. didn't exactly ask me either. We'd been dating for about four years and were walking along the main street in Kirkwall. He sort of drew me towards the window of a jeweller's shop, pointed at a ring and said "Do you like that one?"
About a week later (once the entire population of Orkney knew about it) he said, "I've just realised I didn't actually ask you ..."
We celebrated our silver anniversary last year.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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I find it odd that in this day anyone asks. Surely it is a conversation which evolves.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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Dunno. Mr Lamb didn't ask, he TOLD me.
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
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Neither of us can remember who first broached the subject of marriage, or even exactly when (within a couple of months.)
But I've made a habit of asking the question a few times each year, just to be sure, especially if I happen to find myself on my knees after retrieving something from under the table, etc. So far the answer has always been in the affirmative.
30 years... as of yesterday.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I find it odd that in this day anyone asks. Surely it is a conversation which evolves.
In reality it is, or probably should be. But never discount the importance of playacting in courtship.
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
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I read an article on the bbc site yesterday about some people making a business out of not merely asking, but asking in the right way.
It is proposal planners
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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The silliness of the wedding industry never ceases to amaze me. But as the husband of a florist, it helps pay the bills, so you won't hear me complaining too loudly.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I find it odd that in this day anyone asks ...
I suppose it wasn't really in this day - it was 25 years ago ...
PS Congratulations Carex!
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I read an article on the bbc site yesterday about some people making a business out of not merely asking, but asking in the right way.
It is proposal planners
Well quite. Absurdly elaborate marriage proposals are quite de rigueur in some circles.
The article kind of appalled me by the suggestion that you say yes depending on whether the proposal was stylish enough, not whether you want to spend the rest of your life married to the person.
Strikes me that some people pay rather more attention to the proposal and wedding than to what married life is going to look like afterwards...
(sorry if I'm getting purgatorial)
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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I saw that article too... and immediately thought, what if she (it usually is a she) says no after all that?
Then I thought a bit more, and decided it was designed to put pressure on her to say yes. Grr.
But on the other other hand, I suppose you wouldn't ask The Question unless you were fairly sure you were going to get The Right Answer...
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I read an article on the bbc site yesterday about some people making a business out of not merely asking, but asking in the right way.
It is proposal planners
Geez. I asked Mrs Tor sitting in Luton airport carpark, just before she was whisked away flight-side due to a security flap.
I believe my exact words were "Are we going to get married or what?"
Kids today. Get off my lawn.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I saw that article too... and immediately thought, what if she (it usually is a she) says no after all that?
Then I thought a bit more, and decided it was designed to put pressure on her to say yes. Grr.
But on the other other hand, I suppose you wouldn't ask The Question unless you were fairly sure you were going to get The Right Answer...
Ideally, you probably don't go to this effort unless (a) you know that she will say yes, because your relationship has evolved in that direction and (b) you know that she wants the show. I'm sure that at least one person has ended up getting a "no" or at least a "yes" followed by a very cautious discussion because they went for the public proposal when they should have known very well that she wasn't interested in such a thing.
(I told my wife I wanted to marry her as we stood by the side of the road watching my car being loaded on to a tow truck for the last time after I destroyed the radiator on a camping trip. She was so supportive of me in my idiocy that I knew I had better not let her slip away. I broached the subject of the actual wedding the next week with a casual talk about how she wanted to get married, and then a few months later after the date was set with the church and our 12 guests were invited, I presented her with a ring on one knee because she wanted it that way.)
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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Hah!
My Other Half proposed several times. The first time was when I was showing him round the church in my grandmother's village... an oh-so-casual "So would this be the church we get married in, then?" - and the reply (which probably made him sweat a bit) "No, we don't live in this parish any more, it would be St Elsewhere-on-the-Hill". Then he officially proposed to me in a second-hand bookshop - and then in another second-hand bookshop, because we kept being interrupted by American tourists in the first one. A few months later I proposed to him because it was Leap Year and he'd always wanted to be proposed to.
Gosh, that would have set us back about £500 if we'd got these people to organise it. About the same as the whole cost of our wedding.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
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A friend of ours (who I assume must have been fairly confident of the outcome) proposed by taking his girlfriend for a walk by the lake, on the other side of which was secreted his best friend with a stash of fireworks ...
All went according to plan: they're happily married with two kids now.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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for some odd reason I am not feeling the usual "fuck V-Day" vibe I expected to today.
Case in point: y'all have to check out what Ira Glass did to the Google Doodle today!
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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I think that the proposal matters, but only in a this shows we know each other kind of way. If anyone proposed to me in any public kind of way it would just show how little that they knew me.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Bumping for the singletons posting in Purg
Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on
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How kind!!
Seriously though, I'm due to renew my eHarmony subscription tomorrow and am not sure whether it is worth it. Despite following all the advice (put photos up and sell yourself etc), I'm still getting nowhere. And if I'm honest, it is beginning to piss me off somewhat.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
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So, I was going to post two lines of I-hate-the-world thoughts about how we all die alone and everything is pointless anyway.
But, I'll try being more mature and just re-posting my Purg post instead:
quote:
I almost posted on the All Saints thread a couple of days ago to wonder whether dating is anywhere near worth the stress of it.
I'm also an introvert. My thoughts are that dating websites are a useful way to meet potential partners in lives like mine where there are limited other ways of doing so (I go to work, I socialise with a small group of long-standing friends, I relax at home; I don't go out meeting lots of people socially). However, having recently had my first date with somebody I met online, I am feeling somewhat stressed about the whole thing - trying to make a good impression and not come across like an idiot and seem vaguely interesting can all seem like a lot of hard work. Possibly more so for introverts - I'm generally happier with my own company or that of people I know quite well, so meeting new people can make me anxious anyway. The ideal solution is not to place too much importance on any one date and to just relax and see where things go without worrying about stuff too much - but that's a method which I appear to have great difficulty putting into practice.
For myself, there are particular reasons (well, one very major issue) which mean I think it's more likely that I'll remain single throughout the rest of my life than that I'll ever meet a long-term partner. This leads me to particularly question the worthwhileness of putting myself through the stress of dating. But there's always the possibility I might meet somebody, maybe.
Fortunately in many ways, other parts of my life have recently become extremely busy, so I've imposed a break from dating websites on myself for the next few weeks. Possibly I'll be able to be more relaxed about the whole experience when other aspects of my life are less hectic and potentially-stress-inducing (ha, ha, ha).
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Dating sites have never really worked for me, even as an introvert. Being an INFJ/'introvert in extrovert clothing', I need to see people and read their body language. I find it really hard to 'sell myself' on the internet or to have chemistry with others.
There's also the fun as a non-monosexual that many dating websites (even secular ones) won't allow for any sexualities other than heterosexual or homosexual. And, naturally, most Christian dating sites only allow heterosexual adverts! Not much fun for those of us who aren't. I did just find the men on Christian Connection to be much more conservative than me, and just quite dull people.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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There was Panorama programme on dating sites that might allow you to save some money, Yonatan.
Posted by JFH (# 14794) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I saw that article too... and immediately thought, what if she (it usually is a she) says no after all that?
Then I thought a bit more, and decided it was designed to put pressure on her to say yes. Grr.
But on the other other hand, I suppose you wouldn't ask The Question unless you were fairly sure you were going to get The Right Answer...
I'm not sure it would be to put pressure on a person, more than a fancy ring in a fancy box would be. As the kind of person who may well stage something like that, and known amongst my friends for staging cinematic events in the shap of (non-drunk) bachelor's parties, birthday celebrations and the like, I think it could be about creating as memorable and magnificent a moment for the other person as possible. Sure, in some cases it's probably about keeping up with the soon-to-be-Joneses next door, but there's also space for just expressing creativity and care. But yeah, it's probably best expressed that way when you're pretty certain of the answer.
Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
There was Panorama programme on dating sites that might allow you to save some money, Yonatan.
Thanks for that. I've cancelled my automatic renewal so after today, that will be that!
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I did just find the men on Christian Connection to be much more conservative than me, and just quite dull people.
This reminded me of a poem by Adrian Plass:
“They don’t smoke,
but neither do they breathe fresh air very deeply;
they don’t drink wine,
but neither do they enjoy lemonade;
Adrian Plass - ‘View From a Bouncy Castle’
Link to full text
(Edited for copyright issues)
[ 23. February 2014, 11:24: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
I signed up for OKCupid a few months ago, but was having a hard time getting myself to complete the profile. As I was browsing men's profiles, trying to think of what to say in mine, trying to imagine my audience, I found a guy who seemed like he'd be perfect for me. With the usual self-deprecating thoughts that he'd never be interested, I figured that if I wrote my profile with him in mind, I'd be writing to the right people.
So I completed the profile, and then thought, what the heck, I'll send him a message. He replied, saying he'd been in the midst of writing to me when my message arrived. I met him in person that weekend, and the date lasted 11 hours. And when I told friends about it, they got chills and teared up -- it was that magical. Fast forward to Valentine's Day, when I was out of town, helping my mom prepare to move. I logged onto Facebook and discovered that he had changed his status on Facebook to "in a relationship" with me.
(Pause here for or , depending on your personal views of such things.)
I'm hesitant to say too much, as my relationship history is disastrous to say the least, but he's a real grown-up and he's serious (and smart and kind and so many other things ...). So I'm here to tell you that internet dating can work.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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I know many folks who have met the loves of their lives; I know many others who have nothing but horror stories. I'm fairly meh, myself--have met some good folks, had a relationship-ish with one of them recently. Might get back on the horse at some point.
Internet dating, in my personal experience, has been both less magical and less terrifying than I expected before doing it. So in that sense, I recommend it.
Posted by Sola gratia (# 14065) on
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indeed, RuthW! Sounds wonderful
I am (hopefully) finally about to move to The Big City to find my fortune (well, for a new job) and have made a pact with myself that when I do, I will get off my lazy arse and start Doing Some Dating for real, because my usual habit of falling sideways into crushes on male friends and then never telling them isn't going to get me very far (especially not having any male friends there). And, y'know, life's short.
Anyone have any tips for a) which websites to avoid/be wary of/send you tons of annoying emails, in general and specifically for someone looking for (not-very-evo-but-fairly-definitely-Christian) guys, b) how to go about creating a profile (what to put in or not put in, etiquette, etc.)? I am pretty clueless about the whole procedure. The only way I've ever met someone interesting before is through mutual friends, have never even looked at a dating site but suppose I shall have to
Thoughts?
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
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Re. profile photos:
4 big myths of profile pictures
Don't be ugly by accident
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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Ruth, that is awesome, I'm so happy for you!
I admit to having a 'tude about dating sites, based on my one, single, slightly-less-than-a-month-long experience. I signed on to OKCupid, took a lot of time to carefully list interests, posted a flattering photo without too much boobage, and tried to be brutally honest - single mom, actor, bartender. to me, this should have translated as something like, "I'm lots of fun but broke as fuck and have very little free time". under interests, I was also honest - listing my obsessive love of literature and slightly obscure history and theater, as well as hiking and camping and weightlifting and yoga. I specifically said I had no interest in TV and movies. again, I wanted to have my cards on the table. I wanted to say, "I'm not going to go to keggers or watch football every sunday with you."
I thought I set up a good honest profile which would make a good match.
I was hit with a lot of queries. ("a lot" is relative, of course. perhaps 25 or so?) probably at least 80% wanted casual and S&M focused sexual encounters. at least half of them were married. currently. Do I have a neon sign on my head saying "porn movie fantasies fulfilled here"?
the other 20% (ish. 4 people, anyway) were people I already knew whom I had no interest in whatsoever, usually because he was a self-centered dickhead misogynist (2) or young and looking for a mommy-figure (the other 2).
needless to say, after about 3 weeks or so I slayed my profile and swore never to do that again.
This was not quite two years ago, so it's not like I was a young thing who looked gullible. and I was honest about my age.
OKCupid does seem to aim for people in your immediate area, so my only conclusion is that either a. I put off a really creepy vibe or b. Alaskan men are generally assholes. at least the ones who open dating site profiles.
Now that I live even more rural, I suspect a site like that would only match me up with the local redneck brigade, and I can get harassed by them much easier by just going down to the Fogcutter Saturday night.
do I sound like I feel hopeless? I feel a little bit hopeless.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Platonic hug for Comet!
I, too, feel a little bit hopeless. I had the most darkly hilarious experience in the middle of last night. You know how, if you're woken quite suddenly from a dream, you remember much more of it than you otherwise might? Well, I was having a forever-alone anxiety dream, centered around a car trip which was my idea, to a place that I really wanted to go, which I was dawningly aware I would not actually be able to go on because the other people going with me were couples and only even numbers of people fit in the car. And just as I realized that the other people didn't want me anywhere near the car but had not yet worked up the courage to kick me out...I was jarred awake by the very loud sex being had by the folks in the apartment next door to mine.
Thanks, universe.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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Comet, I suspect it was the combination of actor, bar tender that did it. That is what you actually do - but for many people it could be a euphamism.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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well, that's depressing.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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Just let them discover your work later, after they've got to know you a bit.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Excuse me for being thick, but euphamism for what?
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Excuse me for being thick, but euphamism for what?
As in AMW (Actress/Model/Whatever). Less euphemistically, Whore.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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I had no idea that was a thing.
Now, of course, I can put down "debate coach" which should bring the men just running.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
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What I left out of my story was how many bullshit messages I got from men who clearly hadn't read my profile. Those I just deleted without answering. I think online dating for most people is like trying to find a good country song on the radio. It can be done, but you have to wade through a lot of crap. I got very lucky very fast, but the guy I met did online dating on and off for 12 years (off when he got into relationships) and estimates that he went on roughly 300 first dates.
Also, OKCupid only focuses on people near you if you tell it do to that. You can change your search parameters.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Excuse me for being thick, but euphamism for what?
As in AMW (Actress/Model/Whatever). Less euphemistically, Whore.
I've heard this for actress and model, but when Dt crossed with bar tender, it did not click.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Holy lord 300 first dates?
Good for him to not give up. Good for you to make it worth his optimism.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
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[tangent]
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
... a good country song ...
Does such a thing exist? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
[/tangent]
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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I was told that the classic maxim for a woman trying to find a man in Alaska is;
The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
YMMV
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Excuse me for being thick, but euphamism for what?
As in AMW (Actress/Model/Whatever). Less euphemistically, Whore.
I've heard this for actress and model, but when Dt crossed with bar tender, it did not click.
It'll be the 'actress' word - I suspect fevered imaginations do not immediately leap to visions of Dame Judi. I don't know the US connotations of 'bartender' but for the UK equivalent of 'barmaid' the stereotype is a bottle blonde with leopardskin décolletage.
[ 04. March 2014, 06:59: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
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I have got to the point where I am very tempted by this idea posted by a FB friend.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Too much work, daisydaisy, easier to do the family version of this.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I was told that the classic maxim for a woman trying to find a man in Alaska is;
The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
YMMV
alas, my mileage does not vary. it's all true.
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
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maybe I am an innocent like lilbuddha but I would assume that actress and bartender meant exactly that. All I might think is that acting is a very crowded profession so maybe the person might do less acting than they would like and more bar tending.
I am rather surprised by the response Comet got, as I would have thought there were other websites for people who wanted that sort of thing where people would say so directly rather than putting code words in profiles.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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It shows a commendably unprejudiced turn of mind. But nevertheless, professions come with stereotypes. I remember a stushie in my young day over an ad featuring a rather tousled woman in a Wild West saloon girl outfit with the caption 'I used to be the mainstay of the local library before I discovered...' How dare they suggest that librarians were repressed!
Posted by daisydaisy (# 12167) on
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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I am rather surprised by the response Comet got, as I would have thought there were other websites for people who wanted that sort of thing where people would say so directly rather than putting code words in profiles.
I'm not surprised because I had similar responses when I used the same site a while ago. It's almost as though a profile has to say you're not Into these things.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
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Feeling a bit stressed today. Penelope has been having health issues of an ambiguous nature. It is a neck injury (on top of a cervical spine injury from a car accident years ago) which seems to be causing her carotid artery to do weird stuff.
Yeah, I said carotid. As in "major artery providing blood to the brain." Did I mention the whole stress thing? But add to that the lax approach of her doctor's office that wanted her to get an MRI but then didn't want to do the actual paperwork to get pre-approval from the insurance company. We know that because we called the insurance company to find out why the preapproval was taking so long and they--somewhat stressed--went on a long description of all their efforts to try to get the doctor's office to provide the information.
But that is straightening itself out and this isn't a Hell thread so let's just leave it there. Penelope managed to get the MRI and is doing better, but still no decent diagnosis.
It scares me how much of my happiness depends on her health and happiness. Still, we had a nice night out on Wednesday with friends. Her eyes were twinkling, which makes it all worthwhile.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Oh goodness--I hope things go well for her.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Yeah. Good Lord.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Been a bit quiet on this thread lately. How are folks?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Trying to figure out the Venn diagram of my vocation (and what my vocation looks like) and my relationships...
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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So. Um. Yeah.
Still not anywhere near a position where I would feel comfortable dating, but...
I have been volunteering at a TV station for about 12 years, and working a specific show for (I think) 10. We have a solid team of people who really like each other and work well together. (My fervent wish is that, in whatever arena, I can find myself in a work situation with that dynamic!)
So, over the last year or so, I have been developing a friendship with the director. We never meet outside the studio, and he seems like one of those chronic bachelor types, but over the years he has been spotting interest and aptitude in me, and has been actively setting me up for appropriate, gently increasing challenges.
In short, he is a fantastic teacher. He started by giving me goofy, erratic camera shots to try out when I was working camera, then one day he announced that I was ready to work as technical director, and just last week he walked into the studio and announced that I was ready to direct-- with him playing "driving instructor" by my side, of course. I balked and asked him if we could do it next time.
Here's the thing, though-- I myself had been wondering if I should take a stab at directing. It was like he sensed I was ready.
In any case, I was hugely flattered, but also it just made me sit back and consider him-- I was really impressed with how patient and encouraging he has been with me, and how genuinely pleased he seems at my growth. (and he is just a kick-as director himself.) I can't remember the last time I felt so comfortable and accepted and just good with a male-type person that wasn't a nephew or a student.
Now, all this is just perfect in and of itself-- I have no real designs on the guy, nor do I want to mess up group dynamics by fooling around flirting with him.(although I did tell him that I'd been wondering if he'd been grooming me to direct someday. ) I have the opposite problem-- when I begin liking someone, even in the most casual way, I immediately get paranoid that I'm projecting it from every pore, and I act squirrely and weird and probably wind up acting like I am put off by him. I am sure I send wild mixed messages, and wind up feeling miserably embarrassed for having been so shamefully transparent.
I know exactly where this comes from, not that it helps-- it comes from being bullied at school, and being in a position where I could actually draw someone into my bullying circle by being friendly with them. (Meaning-- if you were seen talking to me, chances were you were next on the bullying list.) All through school, people would be friendly to me in private and withdraw (or even attack) in public. So, after a while I learned to devalue my affections, and affect a noncommittal attitude -- I still have these lingering feelings that, when I like someone, I am imposing myself on them somehow. In a less dramatic way, I feel this way when forming friendships with women, too.
So, basically-- I just want to enjoy liking people without worrying about all that shit. I want to understand my affection is not a burden but a gift, without worrying who agrees with me.
The good news is we aren't meeting again for a few months, so I don't have to worry about any immediate faux pas on my part. But it just feels crazy- having that fundamental discomfort with my own feelings of affection.
[ 05. April 2014, 07:12: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Your experience resonates with me, Kelly. It seems like thinking, feeling young people carry a lot of their past experiences into their adult lives. I have to remind myself, often, that middle school is OVER, and the way I learned to see myself then is not the way those around me now see me.
How lovely for you, to get a chance to reality-test like this, to see if what used to feel true for you is still, ultimately, true. You have a concern, left over from more vulnerable times in your life, that friendship with you is an imposition that you're making on a person who may not want it. And you have in your life a good and interesting person with whom you have much in common, who sounds like he enjoys your company and would like to spend some of his own time growing your potential in an area you both enjoy. Are you imposing? Doesn't sound like it.
I have to do this kind of examination and reality-testing all the frickin' time. It sucks to start in a place where you doubt your own value and assume, from the get-go, that you don't belong at the party. For me, though, I am increasingly finding that my past views of myself (I'm unwelcome, I'm imposing, people are tolerating me rather than feeling happy I'm there) do not hold up to the scrutiny I can give them, and there's something kind of nice in that. I hope that's true for you as well--just speaking as someone who's had a bit of face-time with you and greatly enjoyed it, I suspect it might be.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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TBH, I think I am slowly moving from a place where I kind of chose situations that validated my assumptions about all of the above, to a place where I am challenging myself to make better choices. So, with E.-- he's just a friend, and I want nothing more--well, more friendship, perhaps-- but his importance to me raises a little in terms of "See that, Kelly? That's what a good choice looks like."
Wow, typing that out was amazingly clarifying.
Thanks, though! It's comforting to know someone as cool as you has struggled with the same kinds of things. And your approach seems efficient-- subject the assumptions to scrutiny, and they will weaken.
Posted by Sola gratia (# 14065) on
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for Kelly
Awww, you've warmed all my cockles with that.
Also wow - same here with the schoolgirl bullying leading to thinking-people-tolerate-your-presence paranoia at anything substantial enough to be considered friendship. And what you said about getting sweaty and jumpy when you think 'oh no! My liking is showing!' and suddenly acting weird round whoever it is - been there.
Sounds like you've got to a good point though, at least in that you have consciously recognised that tendency to be ashamed of your liking someone, and want and are trying to remember it's a good thing. That's great!
When I feel a bit uncomfortable and sore thumb-like, I try and preach the following to myself:
"Remember: you are allowed to have friends and nice relationships of all kinds with people and to enjoy it. No one would expect anything else. This is normal, this is fine, don't worry that you're fucking it up, just relax." Repeat until calm. You may or may not find this helpful
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Nothing to admit, erm, confess, um, nothing to see. Just straightening the brick a brac and placing at the front of the cupboard.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
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quote:
Originally posted by daisydaisy:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I am rather surprised by the response Comet got, as I would have thought there were other websites for people who wanted that sort of thing where people would say so directly rather than putting code words in profiles.
I'm not surprised because I had similar responses when I used the same site a while ago. It's almost as though a profile has to say you're not Into these things.
Specialist sites do exist but the dregs there who have no success then go on to blight the normal dating sites. It makes for a lot of frogs to kiss I'm afraid.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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I have positive news...
I went to a thing at the beginning of February (oh, ok, Christian speed dating, which isn't as bad as it sounds) and met a guy. We decided to meet again for a coffee. Then we went on another couple of dates and I had a lot of panic about whether or not I wanted to date him. Decided to give it a shot as he was very nice and I was just worrying too much. And now it's been two entire months and still seems to be going well. This is all a bit strange for me - normally things fall apart slightly before this stage. Part of me is waiting for something to go wrong, part of me is just enjoying it all because it's really very nice and he's lovely.
Is being somewhat surprised by all of this sort of thing normal?
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Scots lass:
Is being somewhat surprised by all of this sort of thing normal?
Yes! Been there!
Congratulations on your news.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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I talk too much. I mean, this is normal SOP for me, but 10 times worse on a date or a proto-date. With friends I can manage to sit in comfortable silence, but when attraction is involved, it is difficult. Is the quiet merely a lull, or did it just get uncomfortable up in here? Did I say something wrong? Did I manage to say something right and it is being processed?
Yes, I over-think. I analyse conversations as I am having them anyway. Just gets worse when I like someone.
I need to find a local branch of OnandOnAnon.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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I have the opposite problem-- when I like someone, my tongue goes on lockdown. Took me a while to figure out I was convincing half the people I like that I didn't like them.
[ 25. June 2014, 16:06: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Another overanalyzer here. I also tend to clam up a wee bit--fear of saying something odd leads to the oddness of not saying much at all.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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If they cannot handle odd, they cannot handle me, so better to know right away.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
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I know a guy who actively pursues that strategy by turning up to first dates on a small, decrepit moped. I have not been told whether he first washes and brushes his teeth. To what extent is it wise to deploy expectations-management?
Posted by JFH (# 14794) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I have the opposite problem-- when I like someone, my tongue goes on lockdown. Took me a while to figure out I was convincing half the people I like that I didn't like them.
I believe it was the Muppet Test doing the rounds in Circus a while back where one of the questions presupposed you walked down the street and saw someone very attractive coming up towards you. The question was not whether you would mess it up, but how. Speaking too little was the first option. Speaking too much was the second. There were more, but I'd say that covers in plenty of us, myself being part of the latter camp.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I know a guy who actively pursues that strategy by turning up to first dates on a small, decrepit moped. I have not been told whether he first washes and brushes his teeth. To what extent is it wise to deploy expectations-management?
Plenty of awesome people have cheap cars (or no car) (or a rubbish bike) but that is a different kettle of fish from someone who does not perform basic personal hygiene.
I don't do "high femme" but if invited out to a dressy up sort of place I would either request somewhere more casual or do my best and add a disclaimer of "sorry but this is about as girly as I can manage".
I think it's reasonable to request "smart casual" from anyone for a first date.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is all.
Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is all.
Having a moment are you?
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
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As the number of my single friends plummets progressively as I go through my twenties, I start to get more and more depressed. Today two friends got engaged. One my age, and one depressingly enough is one of my former youth from when I was last involved in youth ministry.
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
As the number of my single friends plummets progressively as I go through my twenties, I start to get more and more depressed. Today two friends got engaged. One my age, and one depressingly enough is one of my former youth from when I was last involved in youth ministry.
The lack of replies probably means there's not much to say in response to this...
My only feeble contribution is that maybe (wild stab in the dark, ignore if not helpful!) you might find it worthwhile to take more risks. If you kinda like someone, or just meet someone and feel a bit of a spark, then see if they'd like to meet for a drink or a walk or whatever. Low-key and casual, but taking the risk that (a) they might say 'No' or (b) you might fall for them in a more serious way but then it doesn't work out in the end.
You know what they say - nothing ventured, nothing gained...
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
As the number of my single friends plummets progressively as I go through my twenties, I start to get more and more depressed. Today two friends got engaged. One my age, and one depressingly enough is one of my former youth from when I was last involved in youth ministry.
The lack of replies probably means there's not much to say in response to this...
My only feeble contribution is that maybe (wild stab in the dark, ignore if not helpful!) you might find it worthwhile to take more risks. If you kinda like someone, or just meet someone and feel a bit of a spark, then see if they'd like to meet for a drink or a walk or whatever. Low-key and casual, but taking the risk that (a) they might say 'No' or (b) you might fall for them in a more serious way but then it doesn't work out in the end.
You know what they say - nothing ventured, nothing gained...
The problem is, what do you do when everyone says no?
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
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Well, yeah... I have no answer for that! Anticipating that question is what made me hold off from replying to MarsmanTJ's post for a while.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
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Life begins at 30
Hang in there, Marsman. Some of us are just late bloomers.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
As the number of my single friends plummets progressively as I go through my twenties, I start to get more and more depressed. Today two friends got engaged. One my age, and one depressingly enough is one of my former youth from when I was last involved in youth ministry.
The lack of replies probably means there's not much to say in response to this...
My only feeble contribution is that maybe (wild stab in the dark, ignore if not helpful!) you might find it worthwhile to take more risks. If you kinda like someone, or just meet someone and feel a bit of a spark, then see if they'd like to meet for a drink or a walk or whatever. Low-key and casual, but taking the risk that (a) they might say 'No' or (b) you might fall for them in a more serious way but then it doesn't work out in the end.
You know what they say - nothing ventured, nothing gained...
The problem is, what do you do when everyone says no?
Make a list of the characteristics of the people you usually ask, then ask someone who doesn't have one of those characteristics (or even any of them).
Most of the people I know who suddenly found someone after years of not, found people by accident who were not the 'type' of people they had previously been involved with. Whether that was in terms of sub-culture, gender, age or whatever.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Well, yeah... I have no answer for that! Anticipating that question is what made me hold off from replying to MarsmanTJ's post for a while.
Oh please don't feel put off - I mean, it is a good thing to do, and most people don't find that everyone says no.
However, I think some people (like me) are just not very good at situations like that - I think it's why online dating isn't any good for me, I think it's just a personality thing. I can only be attracted to people I've known for a long time.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
As the number of my single friends plummets progressively as I go through my twenties, I start to get more and more depressed. Today two friends got engaged. One my age, and one depressingly enough is one of my former youth from when I was last involved in youth ministry.
The lack of replies probably means there's not much to say in response to this...
My only feeble contribution is that maybe (wild stab in the dark, ignore if not helpful!) you might find it worthwhile to take more risks. If you kinda like someone, or just meet someone and feel a bit of a spark, then see if they'd like to meet for a drink or a walk or whatever. Low-key and casual, but taking the risk that (a) they might say 'No' or (b) you might fall for them in a more serious way but then it doesn't work out in the end.
You know what they say - nothing ventured, nothing gained...
The problem is, what do you do when everyone says no?
Make a list of the characteristics of the people you usually ask, then ask someone who doesn't have one of those characteristics (or even any of them).
Most of the people I know who suddenly found someone after years of not, found people by accident who were not the 'type' of people they had previously been involved with. Whether that was in terms of sub-culture, gender, age or whatever.
Honestly, I have asked people who weren't my 'type' and still got a no. I've been on dating websites where I've just messaged everyone, and have had no response whatsoever.
Posted by duchess (# 2764) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is all.
Having a moment are you?
Me too! ARGGGHHHHHH!!!!! Tinder argggh! OKC arggh! POF argggh! Match.com ARGGGH!
Trying to meet men! ARGGGHGH
That is all.
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
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I've changed all of my online meat-market profiles to "I'm going on sabbatical for a while from hunting for people to play with online. Something's not working for me, and I think part of it is probably focusing too much in the internet as a place to meet people. If we've been in touch and you'd like my e-mail address, please let me know, but I won't be checking things here as often for a while" and Cubby and I are joining a local club!
I have found internet dating sites rather awful in terms of meeting people. I've managed to get together with such a tiny number of them! To the ones you list, duchess, I can add adam4adam, fetlife, recon, bear411, and more... Note: Google any of these at your peril, and not at work
[ 23. July 2014, 05:03: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on
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A year after having been spurned rather brutally, I accidentally came across a picture of her new shiny engagement ring. Though not even from the guy she spurned me in favour of.
Good to see her happy, but it does rather sting.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
Perhaps you might think to yourself that her upcoming nuptials will almost certainly change her blissful state somewhat, and in many people's experience the hard slog is about to start. Whereas your happy-dappy courtship-and-honeymoon period are all ahead of you!
MiM...married for quite a while, and looks like it.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
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I attended the weddings of 2 people I had sort-of-fancied but never acted on it, back when I was younger and had Lots of Issues.
I felt a whole lot better when they both had sprogged within a year of the wedding. One had impregnated his wife during the honeymoon Wrote both of them off as Narrow Escapes and moved on with life.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
A year after having been spurned rather brutally, I accidentally came across a picture of her new shiny engagement ring. Though not even from the guy she spurned me in favour of.
Good to see her happy, but it does rather sting.
Oooch. Been there.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
Dear Shippies, I'm here to throw myself on your mercies and risk eternal jokes at my expense in Hell and all the rest.
Here's the problem: I've been asked on a date. The issue is that I'm 40 years old, the mother of three, hardly new to the game; yet I've never been on a date*.
Where I grew up (not even typical for the majority of Alaskans) we didn't "date". We'd meet through mutual friends, chat when we run into each other, eventually the man would offer to walk you home to keep you safe. This would often lead to kissy stuff and away we'd go, building to fishing trips together and sitting next to each other at Potlatch.
But today I was asked "will you allow me to buy you dinner sometime?" and it was flirty so I think it's a date. (right?) what are the rules? I assume the idea that the fella pays for everything is out of date, though he did specify that. Do I get picked up? I'm perfectly capable of driving myself. Is there an assumption of more activity after dinner? Kissing etc? I like this guy but I want to know I have an out if he turns out to be a republican or something. He asked what nights I was free and I said all of them... But was he thinking ALL night? Because I do work in the mornings.
Help!
And am I overthinking this?
(go ahead, poke fun. I can take it.)
*that I am aware of. The definition of "date" is fuzzy to me.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Erm, well, hmmm. I cannot help you with all of the dynamics, though I'll try with what I can.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
But today I was asked "will you allow me to buy you dinner sometime?"
The asker pays.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Do I get picked up?
If I trust* the person, I will let them drive.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Is there an assumption of more activity after dinner? Kissing etc? I like this guy but I want to know I have an out if he turns out to be a republican or something.
Their should never be assumptions. Hopes, well...
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
He asked what nights I was free and I said all of them...
Yeah, no. Don't say that. I hate games, I hate dishonesty, but don't say that. "What night were you thinking? Let me check my calender, yes, I think I can manage that night" quote:
Originally posted by comet:
But was he thinking ALL night? Because I do work in the mornings.
Maybe you should drive, after all. Leave yourself options.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
And am I overthinking this?
Oh, gods! I am an expert on overthinking these things. Relax and let it happen.
Again, my dynamics are different, but this day and age, they should not differ too much.
*For certain values of trust.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
But today I was asked "will you allow me to buy you dinner sometime?" and it was flirty so I think it's a date. (right?) what are the rules? I assume the idea that the fella pays for everything is out of date, though he did specify that. Do I get picked up? I'm perfectly capable of driving myself. Is there an assumption of more activity after dinner? Kissing etc? I like this guy but I want to know I have an out if he turns out to be a republican or something. He asked what nights I was free and I said all of them... But was he thinking ALL night? Because I do work in the mornings.
Yes, you have a date and he is paying, although it may be good to offer to go halves at some point during the evening. Dating has changed so much since I did it and it appears these days there can be an expectation of, "I bought you dinner so you owe me something for afterwards." I am old fashioned enough not to expect even kissing on a first date, unless it's a goodnight one, let alone anything else. I'd also take my own transport to have the option of leaving when I want to.
Nen - hoping you have a lovely evening.
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
Ooh how exciting, comet! I was the 'asker' in very much the same situation around 6 months ago. I did pay but it was only 2 drinks at a coffee shop so less of a deal than dinner. That went well, I asked her if she would like to meet for dinner around a week later, which we did. We arrived separately for both those dates and, personally, I'd say that's best if you don't really know your date.
She then asked me (yay!) if I'd like to spend one Saturday with her, and things kinda carried on from there.
As for kissing and all that, my girlfriend (yay!) and I didn't kiss until the end of date 4, and that was a slightly awkward kiss goodnight on the cheek. I'm such a gentleman. A gentleman, not a coward, oh no...
So, um, yeah. Hope that helps somehow, and all the best!
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
:
He asked, so let him pay. You could offer to pay for the tip if you like.
Always drive yourself. Always. (Unless it was someone that you are already friends with and have been in each other's cars before.) Make sure your phone is fully charged and in working order, and let someone know where you are going, who you are going with and what time you are due home. (You can see from my safety protocols that I am used to going on 'dates' with strangers off the internet...)
Have a clear line in your mind beyond which you don't want to go. You can set your own boundaries, there are no 'rules' as such. But once you have decided (eg. yes to holding hands but no kissing or sex) then don't go beyond them - in the heat of the moment your judgment may be compromised. There's always next time
Have fun!
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
He asked, so let him pay. You could offer to pay for the tip if you like.
No no no no no no no no no no don't do that....
That tells him you think he's cheap and won't tip properly. Paying the tip is part of paying for dinner.
As far as who drives, I'd go with those suggesting that you drive yourselves and meet there.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
Having only ever dated one bloke* I'm not really in a position to offer advice (especially as we'd known each other for several years before we started dating), so all I can offer is best wishes.
Good luck!
* to whom I've now been married for 26 years
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
But today I was asked "will you allow me to buy you dinner sometime?" and it was flirty so I think it's a date. (right?) what are the rules?
The rules are whatever you decide you feel most comfortable with, in the light of your own local culture.
Personally, I wouldn't let a man buy me dinner for a first date. This is because there are often unspoken expectations, and it puts you in a position of obligation to return the favour another time. If you've decided you like him and would be happy to see him again, no problem, but if you've decided partway through the evening he's a pimple and you can't wait to leave, you're a bit stuck.
First meetings can be a bit full of expectations and summings up and it can be best to keep it light and casual, just go for drinks. It may be that both of you hit it off and decide to get some food as well, but if not, you're free to leave at any time. When you're stuck waiting for the next course and for him to pay the bill before you can leave, it's less easy.
Incidentally, do ask him where he had in mind, hopefully it's a place you'd feel comfortable eating in and serves food you'd be happy to eat. It's no good if he has a thing for a culinary tradition you don't like.
Re personal safety, I'd advise against getting into a car with a man you don't know. I always used to leave a note behind in my room with contact details of the person I was going to meet. It can be in a sealed envelope, which you can throw away unopened when you return home later, but it does give you peace of mind.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
Thanks, everyone. Really good advice, I appreciate it so much!
Just to clarify, this is a former colleague from my radio days whom I've known for about 13 years. We have gobs of mutual friends, and while we've never really been "friends" (never lved in the same town until now) we know eachother quite well. Also- it's a very small town, and if I feel I have to leave I can easily walk home from every restaurant we have. Also- he knows my mama. Anyone who knows my mama wouldn't risk hurting me. she's like me, only worse.
My bigger concern is more how to talk and act... Something about a "date" feels awkward, somehow. I'd normally chat with this man easily, but now that it's a "date" it feels... I dunno. Weird.
I'll cope, I'm sure.
one thing that I love is that he isn't intimidated by me and actually ASKED. And he's a performer so our eccentricities are compatible!
*deep breaths*
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
So decide that it is not a date [in your own mind] - just go out for dinner with him and enjoy. If it leads on to something else then good, if it doesn't you've still deepened a good friendship.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
So decide that it is not a date [in your own mind] - just go out for dinner with him and enjoy. If it leads on to something else then good, if it doesn't you've still deepened a good friendship.
Wise words from WW. Looking forward to hearing how it goes.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
If he's not a total stranger and you already know him then no worries. That does make it easier.
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
just go out for dinner with him and enjoy. If it leads on to something else then good, if it doesn't you've still deepened a good friendship.
Precisely.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
And if it's not a date date, offer to pay half or your share (you can get stung paying half). That keeps it in the deepening friendship stakes rather than turns it into expectations until you're ready.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by ecumaniac:
He asked, so let him pay. You could offer to pay for the tip if you like.
No no no no no no no no no no don't do that....
That tells him you think he's cheap and won't tip properly. Paying the tip is part of paying for dinner.
Oh ok. This is probably a USA vs EU thing.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
LOL, now we are over thinking comet's date.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
So decide that it is not a date [in your own mind] - just go out for dinner with him and enjoy. If it leads on to something else then good, if it doesn't you've still deepened a good friendship.
ah!
darling, you always know just the right thing to say. this is of course the right tack.
whew. sometimes I just think myself right up my own ass and can't find my way out.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
And I'd leave the chopped-off moose head at home Have fun!
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
LOL, now we are over thinking comet's date.
No pressure, comet - go out, have a good time, and imagine the SoF peanut gallery sitting behind you critiquing your every move.
Oh, and your choice of outfit needs to be approved in advance by Eccles...
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
Enjoy, comet...
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
And of course we expect a minute by minute narrative via social media.
Actually, no. I was in a Chinese takeaway not so long ago, when a young(ish) man and woman came in and ordered, then he betook himself off, possibly to buy the bottle to go with dinner while she waited to collect. Directly he was gone she was on the phone to a GF - no, he hadn't paid for the food, but he looked as if he might stay the night! Updates to follow.
I thought dear god the terrors of modern dating with built-in continuous assessment and performance review.
[ 27. July 2014, 20:11: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
And of course we expect a minute by minute narrative via social media ...
No no no! Do you want the poor girl to get a second date?
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Here's the problem: I've been asked on a date...
Dating is a royal pain. It's not all that easy from the other side, either.
But much of that is because there is too much expectation about a traditional "date" and not enough communication. The good news is that it doesn't have to be that way. You are both adults, so do what is comfortable instead of worrying about what is supposed to happen on a "date".
First, express preferences about what you do. At least for some of us that makes it much more likely to lead to a fun time together than if the man has to try to read your mind. Possible responses to help direct the discussion might include:
"That would be great fun! We could [insert things you would like to do and/or places you'd like to go here]..."
"If we go on Thursday we can have Thai food."
"Actually, I'd rather dig clams / fly kites / watch the State Highway arrive / polish moose antlers / watch the sunset together."
"I have to be home by xx o'clock to help the kids with homework / feed the dogs / skin a porcupine / get enough sleep to go to work the next day."
And if he isn't smart enough to take your preferences into consideration, he might not be someone you want to see very often.
You don't have to let him pay for everything if you don't want to, or you can choose someplace that won't break his budget. On the other hand, if he thinks that the honor of your company is worth the cost of dinner at a fancy place (meaning they have tablecloths or french words on the menu), then put some mink oil on your best dress boots and go enjoy yourself!
Of course, in a town that small, everyone will know how it went before you even get home, down to how many buttons were undone on your flannel shirt. If you want privacy you might need to take a Beaver to Skagway.
As far as assumptions about what happens after dinner, my view is that there shouldn't be any. (Hopes, perhaps...) You can help to set expectations during the planning phase if it appears otherwise. And if you hit it off, you get to decide how much of your decolletage to expose to mosquitoes or whether to stop for some tonsil hockey on the way home.
You're adults, you get to make those decisions rather than trying to live up to an outmoded and ill-defined set of expectations of a "date".
Relax and have fun. And if you find yourself overthinking things, make jokes about it.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
Of course, in a town that small, everyone will know how it went before you even get home, down to how many buttons were undone on your flannel shirt. If you want privacy you might need to take a Beaver to Skagway.
I do love a Local! You understand! though Skagway is STILL too local. More like Whitehorse or Juneau.
(everyone else: a Beaver is an airplane, get your minds out of the gutter.)
This is actually part of the issue, in a way. He's fairly recently divorced, and his ex wife lives here. it's amicable, as far as I can tell, but you know how talk goes. which makes me think a public dinner might not be such a great idea. I was actually thinking of suggesting to him that we do a hike or a beach bonfire instead. I'll see him tomorrow so I am going to try that tactic.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
Whitehorse? That's in a different country!
I can understand the "everyone will know" scenario very well though, having grown up in a place with a population of about 6,000. When D. and I got engaged, a colleague asked me if we'd be putting an announcement in the local weekly paper. "I shouldn't think so", I said; "by Thursday everybody'll know."
As they say, a feather at one end of the town is a feather bed by the time it reaches the other.
Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
Of course, in a town that small, everyone will know how it went before you even get home, down to how many buttons were undone on your flannel shirt. If you want privacy you might need to take a Beaver to Skagway.
I do love a Local! You understand! though Skagway is STILL too local. More like Whitehorse or Juneau.
(everyone else: a Beaver is an airplane, get your minds out of the gutter.)
This is actually part of the issue, in a way. He's fairly recently divorced, and his ex wife lives here. it's amicable, as far as I can tell, but you know how talk goes. which makes me think a public dinner might not be such a great idea. I was actually thinking of suggesting to him that we do a hike or a beach bonfire instead. I'll see him tomorrow so I am going to try that tactic.
Of course, if you go out to dinner on the town everyone will know what you were up to. If you go out of the communal vision, speculation could become rampant about the delicious possibilities.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
If you are interested in someone romantically, but want to develop your friendship first, how do you keep from constantly thinking about them in a romantic sense rather than just a friendship sense? It may just be an INFJ thing with our 'rich inner life', but I can spend so much time 'progressing' mentally with a person when the real-life stuff needs to progress first!
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I can spend so much time 'progressing' mentally with a person when the real-life stuff needs to progress first!
Oh my - been there, done that!
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
If you are interested in someone romantically, but want to develop your friendship first, how do you keep from constantly thinking about them in a romantic sense rather than just a friendship sense?
Ah yes, I've got myself trapped rather hideously in the friend zone a couple of times. Lesson learnt, I think - what I've done since then, with people I've been romantically interested in, is try to hang out with them in groups and stuff, and make a point of chatting with them, but fairly quickly ask them out on what can only be construed as a date. That way, I've not given my feelings so much time to race away far beyond the actual state of the friendship / relationship.
I think you can keep dates low-key for a while, if you want to take it slow and easy, while still being obvious that you are dating. Yes, there are risks, I guess - you're putting yourself out there to get hurt by rejection, you might ask 'too soon' before the other person has got a chance to know you and see how fab you are. But for people like me who are vulnerable to the 'friend zone' trap, perhaps it's the way things have to be...
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
If you are interested in someone romantically, but want to develop your friendship first, how do you keep from constantly thinking about them in a romantic sense rather than just a friendship sense? It may just be an INFJ thing with our 'rich inner life', but I can spend so much time 'progressing' mentally with a person when the real-life stuff needs to progress first!
I hear you. For me, I find it helpful to just acknowledge to self that these thoughts/feelinga are present (because denying them is like the old saw about intentionally not thinking of a purple elephant--it doesn't work), while mindfully cultivating the other thoughts as well. That means I intentionally try to see my 'desired' person as I would see any other friend, and/ or I try using the lens I have for desired person on any other friend: the hope is to align the lenses a bit more than I would do otherwise. And, as Kevin said, group interactions are more conducive to platonic thoughts and relationships: if it's too hard to keep the 'friend' lens in a 1:1 situation, it may be wise to limit 1:1 contact for a bit.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Ah yes, I've got myself trapped rather hideously in the friend zone a couple of times.
Oh my, that link. I have so many feelings about the content of that article. Just ....
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I can spend so much time 'progressing' mentally with a person when the real-life stuff needs to progress first!
Oh my - been there, done that!
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
If you are interested in someone romantically, but want to develop your friendship first, how do you keep from constantly thinking about them in a romantic sense rather than just a friendship sense?
Ah yes, I've got myself trapped rather hideously in the friend zone a couple of times. Lesson learnt, I think - what I've done since then, with people I've been romantically interested in, is try to hang out with them in groups and stuff, and make a point of chatting with them, but fairly quickly ask them out on what can only be construed as a date. That way, I've not given my feelings so much time to race away far beyond the actual state of the friendship / relationship.
I think you can keep dates low-key for a while, if you want to take it slow and easy, while still being obvious that you are dating. Yes, there are risks, I guess - you're putting yourself out there to get hurt by rejection, you might ask 'too soon' before the other person has got a chance to know you and see how fab you are. But for people like me who are vulnerable to the 'friend zone' trap, perhaps it's the way things have to be...
Yeah, I am not in any way afraid of 'the friendzone' because I don't see friendship as inferior to romantic relationships, or friends as vending machines that I put niceness coins into until romance comes out. I've spoken about the sexism behind the term on here before and don't want to derail the thread, but suffice to say it's a term I don't appreciate and does not apply to me in any way.
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
Oh, sorry folks - I was unaware that the term 'friend zone' had some controversy around it. I was thinking it could just as easily apply to women, although I realise the page I linked to was very much from the perspective of men. I meant no offence.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I've spoken about the sexism behind the term on here before and don't want to derail the thread, but suffice to say it's a term I don't appreciate and does not apply to me in any way.
My daughter uses it all the time, in an entirely matter-of-fact and non-sexist way. She's a different generation, and proscribing terms they find useful descriptors is going to be problematic.
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on
:
It does have an unfortunate meaning in some circles- your daughter may be using it differently, but some guys use it to mean that a girl should be attracted to them and isn't.
Generally used that way by people who believe All Women like jerks better than nice guys (and that's why a particular woman doesn't want to date Me, because I am too nice for her!).
When used this way it's a symptom of an inability to accept that some people just don't want to sleep with you, even if they like you as a person.
See xkcd for an example of this mindset.
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
That may be true, but I won't be correcting her. Her language, her rules.
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on
:
OK, but... you don't want her to know she's using a term that might offend people? (I am 35 and I believe JC is in her early twenties, so I don't think the Nice Guy meaning is generational.)
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
(Sorry, hosts... I know this is more Purgatory than not - I may even start a thread!)
I do understand that language can be captured by other meanings, and thereby tainted by association. But I'm sure that Jade would find it entirely condescending of me to have me explain to her that 'friendzone' can have an completely innocent definition, revolving around knowing your peers since before Primary school and seeing them solely as mates, and not as potential 'mates'.
So I'm going to leave it as it is. Miss Tor and her peers use it innocently as a simple descriptor. There are so very few innocent things in a teenager's life these days...
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
This morning I secretly promised myself that if someone/anyone carried on this language tangent I would respectfully request them to take it all to Purgatory and then you offer to do so - thanks. This discussion no longer belongs here.
WW
AS Host.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
Reporting in as requested.
After vague conversations the gentleman in question didn't follow up. He had said something about moving and his performance schedule, so I waited and tried to be patient (really!) but yesterday my patience ran out. I left a note on his windshield that went something like this:
Dear sir:
I need your advice. Say someone asked you out, and you were very interested, but that someone never followed up. Would you wait patiently like the patient person you are not, write an odd hypothetical note, or sneak in in the middle of the night like a ninja and kidnap him for your nefarious purposes? Please advise.
Sincerely, Ninja Impulse Money
he called an hour later. Made me dinner. It was lovely.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Most excellent!
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
Most excellent!
Well said, I concur!
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
Great way of dealing with this comet - glad it worked out well
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
:
Well done!!
Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on
:
Yay. But did he explain why he hadn't contacted you?
This is something that continues to confuse me - when men are really keen and then disappear.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
:
In my experience, it's because they are easily distracted.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
ecumaniac: In my experience, it's because they are easily distracted.
That's not tr
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
Come back, LeRoc! Earth calling LeRoc!
Glad it worked out, Comet. Is he a good cook?
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
Helluva cook, actually. And a tidy house!
I think it was a combination of easily distracted and nerves. So I just plowed through the nerves in my usual subtle way.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
(Glad it worked out well for comet too.)
Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on
:
Cool!!!
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Helluva cook, actually. And a tidy house!...
Are you sure he's straight?
Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Helluva cook, actually. And a tidy house!
I think it was a combination of easily distracted and nerves. So I just plowed through the nerves in my usual subtle way.
It's obvious. He didn't want to approach you until he'd tidied up...
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Helluva cook, actually. And a tidy house!...
Are you sure he's straight?
well, one never knows, but I'm pretty sure....
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Helluva cook, actually. And a tidy house!
I think it was a combination of easily distracted and nerves. So I just plowed through the nerves in my usual subtle way.
It's obvious. He didn't want to approach you until he'd tidied up...
but see? That's the thing! between my delivery of the note and my walking in the door we're talking 2 hours, max. if he needed that to tidy up, the place wasn't all that bad to begin with. at least in relation to my definition of messy. Which admittedly would be other people's definition of apocalyptic.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
I'll bet the proverbial farm he was waiting for a Sign. Which you gave.
Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Helluva cook, actually. And a tidy house!...
Are you sure he's straight?
Perhaps he's bi. If so, jackpot!
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Did anyone go to the Christian Connection events at Greenbelt, and how were they? I did email them asking if they'd be covering anything to do with LGBT Christians and dating, and expanding their site to include LGBT Christians - somewhat unsurprisingly I didn't get a response!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
That's odd, I thought they were pretty inclusive.
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on
:
Kelly, Christian Connection is a totally different organisation from Greenbelt - GB *are* (ISTM) pretty inclusive of LGBT folk, but my experience of CC (over a decade ago) is that the vast majority of people who used the service were pretty conservative evangelical. I think if that hasn't changed much over the last decade or so then they would struggle to become more LGBT-inclusive, even if they wanted to, without losing a lot of their regular 'customers'.
We didn't make it to GB this year (didn't work out with timing of other holiday), but I'm curious to go next year. As we are based in Scotland we only have a few years left that we *can* go to GB, before the Elf Lass starts school (up here they start back mid-August and no August Bank Holiday, so coming to GB would mean taking her out of school).
[ 27. August 2014, 11:38: Message edited by: Jack the Lass ]
Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on
:
Argh sorry to include GB comment in my edit - in my baby-addled confusion I thought I was commenting on the GB thread!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Thanks, Jackie, I was indeed thinking she had emailed the Greenbelt people.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
Yes, sorry - Christian Connection are separate to Greenbelt and it was CC I emailed! Greenbelt is very LGBT friendly.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
<bump>
Unless we all got blissfully partnered since the last post, I'm digging this out before Seasonal Tidy.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
:
*bumpity bump*
Is everybody happily partnered off, or are we just bored of bemoaning being single?
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
:
Very happily partnered at the moment - which still comes as something of a surprise occasionally as I was single for a long time. It's the longest I've been with someone for years, and I've taken a while to get over the expectation of it all going wrong somewhere imminently. It's been remarkably easy, which is lovely. I'm trying very hard not to be smug about it!
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
Still single. Depressing. Unable to overcome shyness around women. How is it that my mind goes totally blank? It seems I'm doomed.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
Would that be all women, or just ones you might fancy? I ask because the whys and the what-nexts may differ.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
The ones I like.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
Is everybody happily partnered off, or are we just bored of bemoaning being single?
Pssst Have you read the "Apple Pie" thread recently?
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
*bumpity bump*
Is everybody happily partnered off, or are we just bored of bemoaning being single?
Still happily seeing the man I met on OKCupid a year ago.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
The ones I like.
I'm not gonna pretend there's a quick, easy answer; if there were, you'd already have put it into practice. It does seem like a common challenge, and if you find what works to get past this, please do let me know so I can try it myself. I find that I get tongue-tied around folks I admire, and that the root of that is a fear that I, myself, am less admirable than they. It's bullcrap, though, and something I try to work through--sometimes by being honest with the person I'm talking to about the fact that my brain sometimes does that.
Sounds like exciting developments among many of us singletons! I can't claim the brass ring myself at this time, but ah well. My non-romance continues apace, with the best friend I'm kind of, well, in love with continuing to be the most important person in my life, and a genuine vice-versa as far as I can tell. We're going on an overnight trip later this week, just the two of us, after spending Thanksgiving with mutual friends. I am open to the idea of a 'real' relationship with someone else, someone who's more able than she is to actually take that leap with another person, but it's hard to imagine, really, how to fit another person in.
Humans are complex little beasties, are they not?
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
After a period of being happily celibate and seriously considering the religious life, I find myself in love with a friend - no hints that he doesn't feel the same way, but he currently lives in the southern US after his visa ran out (we met when he was studying in the UK). Bit of a distance! We talk all the time online but it's not really the same. He's hopefully moving back to the UK in the summer to do his PhD but that feels like such a long time to wait!
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
Is everybody happily partnered off, or are we just bored of bemoaning being single?
Pssst Have you read the "Apple Pie" thread recently?
I hadn't done. Obviously many congratulations to comet
As for me, I'm joining Ad Orientem in the feeling-doomed-so-far-as-romance goes corner.
(I've actually done more about it this year than at any time in the past - going on 2 dates each with 2 guys (i.e. 4 dates total) met via OKCupid. I think both of them were mostly just too polite to say they weren't interested in taking things further after only 1 date. But dating feels to me like very hard work for very uncertain (possibly zero) reward. I'm an introvert, in some ways significantly lacking in the self-confidence stakes, so meeting new people and worrying about the first impressions I make is a pain. Plus I'm unconvinced I'll ever meet anybody I could settle down into a long-term relationship with (because I am weird and not a normal person). Should I really bother with dating or should I focus my energies on being more content as a singlie? (I would like to be in a romantic relationship, but I do adequately without one and chug along with life - which can't be said for everybody who's single.))
[ 25. November 2014, 18:41: Message edited by: Zoey ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
I think for me, it's not about choosing to focus on the one instead of the other: it's about going into both of those experiences (I'm going on a date tonight, I'm working on my profile, I have no plans with anyone , I'm not bringing anyone home for Christmas...) with a sense of, I'm doing this right now, and that is okay. I struggle with that--I'll be on a date with the back of my head thinking, I wish I hadn't bothered, this is too much/too hard/destined to flop, or I'll spend time out of the 'market' as it were and think, this is a mistake, I should be looking for someone. That's what I want to work on--not fully deciding whether I'm in or I'm out, but just being comfortably present with both, in real time.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
Zoey that's kind of the situation I was in before. Now I just want to punch this boy in the mouth with my mouth
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
:
I know the feeling - I was very bad with dates. I could rarely bring myself to invite anyone out, and spent most of my time alone. The few relationships seemed to follow a similar pattern of the other person getting bored and dumping me after a month or two.
But looking back, while those dates / relationships were often difficult, I learned a lot from them, especially about what didn't work for me in a partner. For example, I discovered that I wanted a partner who was active, mature, and intelligent by experiencing what it was like when they weren't. Perhaps the most important one for me was not to have a relationship with anyone who needed my help. Friendship perhaps, but when I am there only to be a crutch for someone, they have no incentive to walk on their own two feet. If they did then I wouldn't be needed anymore and I might leave. So I had to make a rule for myself: it was OK to play the knight in shining armour to rescue someone who was having trouble, but I wouldn't try to develop that into a relationship until they didn't need me anymore. Then I noticed how many of those damsels took their distress to the next convenient knight rather than doing anything about it.
A lot of personal growth forged in the torment of pain. But it helped me to see when I was setting my sights too low out of desperation, and when I was too concerned about meeting someone else's needs rather than my own.
So don't take it too hard when dates don't work out. Yes, it can be painful for in introvert to screw up the courage and then get rejected. But looking back on it with the hindsight of time, I can see what I learned from each such occasion, about myself and the type of partner / relationship that I want. Consider it practice for the next one, and eventually it might not seem so hard to do. Or at least, you will have learned some discernment, so you don't waste as much effort in the future on unsuitable dates.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
Yep, dating is hard. It feels like a job interview, only it lasts much longer than a job interview. It's been about ten years since I last went on one. Small talk is particularly hard. I joined Tinder a little while back and started chatting to a match last night. Let's see how it goes.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
I hate being single. I live currently in a smallish community, where the only potential mate of around my own age (the girl I've mentioned previously) is still in the middle of a lot of family drama and just not in a position to be able to date. And there is literally no-one else who fits my age + faith profile that I'm looking for.
Funnily enough though, an old flame on facebook posted something about her struggles being single and believing that there's a man out there for her and I made the only comments on it that she 'liked'. I must say, if she wasn't 7000 miles away, I'd send a facebook message suggesting that I'm as interested in her as I ever was, but from 7000 miles away (and six years since I saw her) the idea seems a little creepy.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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Send her a "Hi, I know what you mean. It's the same for me out here." And see if she picks up on it.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Send her a "Hi, I know what you mean. It's the same for me out here." And see if she picks up on it.
I said pretty much exactly that in the first comment I made, actually. Might've been better as a private comment for her to pick up on, but she could easily PM me back should she wish to.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
:
I thought better of what I wrote afterward, as it could easily be taken as "yeah, I'm in the same boat [and I would be even if we lived next door]".
If you want to de-ambiguous it, you might drop a private message to her along the lines of, "So how are things with your work/family/whatever? And do you ever get up this way?"
If she answers you, you're on the way to a good start.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
Does anyone have any advice for my situation? Do I say something now, or when he's back in the UK?
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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You say you are steadily communicating? I would certainly keep that up. If the exchange is mutual and frequent that tells its own tale. If he fades away then that is another big clue-by-four.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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I'd keep things as they are while you've got so much physical space between you, especially since it sounds like you started off as friends. Shifting that dynamic is something that I think is best done face to face.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
I'm inclined to say that if you are in that much contact, when you get back together again in person, how you feel about each other is going to be really very clear. Far better for it to be that way than have the awkward conversation over skype/facetime/IM package of choice.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
:
Yeah, it does seem like the more sensible option. How to deal with the pain/moping though?
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Get another iron into the fire? Do not put all your eggs into this one basket? (several more trite metaphors here) If we postulate that there are as good fish in the sea that ever came out of it, then you could continue on the quest, keeping the long-distance possibility in reserve.
Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on
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Oh not sure I'm capable of that! Can only handle one romantic interest at a time.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
Every time you miss them, pray for them. Try and get to know a little of their daily schedule so that you can have an idea of what they might be doing at that time. Prayer helps to develop intimacy in unexpected ways.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
Some progress sort of. A man is hanging around, would marry if I were willing but his health is terrible and he insists we'll both be dead in 3 years and talks an awful lot about negatives like which doctors he saw this week. Sweet guy but, I don't know, maybe it's just that he's still deeply grieving his wife. So I told him I need friends but am not into romance.
Will others seeing us hang put together assume we are a couple and back off? What the heck, others weren't showing up. One problem, I discovered, is people think I'm 20 years younger than I am. Most of my friends are 15-20 years younger and assume I'm their age; one widower my age never returned a greeting until some accidental comment I made revealed that we have the same birth year, and he said with surprise he thought I was his daughter's age. He's more responsive since then, but deeply in love with his deceased wife and not dating.
I need to try the dating services. Did so a couple decades ago when it was newspapers which resulted in, um, tales to tell, and definitely no interest in a second date with any of them! I suppose I could get off my duff and at least generate some more wacky stories to tell!
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
No, this does not sound like a man who has processed his loss and is ready to move on to a new phase in life.
Here in the US (where we have had dicey health insurance until just very recently) there are men who are in search of a 'nurse with a purse' -- a wife who will take care of all their end-of-life issues, and fund same. You do not want to be that nurse.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, this does not sound like a man who has processed his loss and is ready to move on to a new phase in life.
Here in the US (where we have had dicey health insurance until just very recently) there are men who are in search of a 'nurse with a purse' -- a wife who will take care of all their end-of-life issues, and fund same. You do not want to be that nurse.
LOL, I have a relative of sorts who as a young nurse married a sick 70 year old man. He lived another 20 years, fathered 3 kids with her. But he was wealthy and left her rich. A marriage of mutual advantage, not of love. But then, marriage for love seems to be a new invention,
Alas, the sweet man with lots of health problems has only social security from a low paying job, I would probably end up paying his bills as well as nursing him. Can a man with significant health and financial problems find a late in life spouse? Given the demographics and the number of women who hate living alone, it might happen for him.
I suppose none of us in retirement years are a "good catch" including me!
(In states that rejected Obamacare's extension of Medicare/Medicaid, health care is still dicey. A friend pays $7 a month for Obamacare but it's a $6000 deductible policy so she actually gets no access to doctors from it. And she said the rates for 2015 are ten times higher! Utterly unaffordable.)
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
Went on a date today for the first time in about 10 years. We just went for a walk but it must have gone ok because we're going for coffee next week. Let's see how it goes. I always get worried that I'll have nothing to say. I'm not very good at making conversation but we seem to have similar interests and go to the same gym. It's a step in the right direction.
[ 26. December 2014, 16:45: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
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Congrats! A good step, indeed.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
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After wedding number too many to count in the last few years, this time for another couple a good few years younger than me (and I'm only mid-twenties) I seem to be the only single person at these things and it's rather depressing.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
:
I shouldn't let it worry you too much, Marsman - most people will go to a lot of weddings in their twenties, and there are worse ways of meeting people: my sister and sister-in-law both linked up with the men they married at the weddings of other people.
And when you think about it, at a wedding, you (and your potential mate) are probably looking your best, so it'll be easier to make a good impression.
Posted by Clint Boggis (# 633) on
:
Great idea Piglet if they aren't all couples!
quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
After wedding number too many to count in the last few years, this time for another couple a good few years younger than me (and I'm only mid-twenties) I seem to be the only single person at these things and it's rather depressing.
[ 08. January 2015, 23:18: Message edited by: Clint Boggis ]
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
my sister and sister-in-law both linked up with the men they married at the weddings of other people.
And when you think about it, at a wedding, you (and your potential mate) are probably looking your best, so it'll be easier to make a good impression.
Times have changed. The last several weddings I've attended I was the only single person there (other than gays or lesbians, who also were not single but came in pairs.) I teased one groom about not fulfulling the role of getting all his single friends together at the wedding so they can pair off. He said they don't know any single people.
Probably true, people live together and have already ditched their single friends, moved into the couples only world, years before the wedding.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
That makes me have a sad. These days I have moved into the world of coupledom, but I really dislike that thing of couples only hanging out with other couples. We have decided consciously that we will always have single friends, invite them round for dinner etc.
I think it's an important thing for couples (with or without children) to do. I know how grateful I used to be when I was single for married friends who invited me round.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
When I was single before marriage, I don't remember spending time with married friends. I've now been divorced for 12 years and am happy that my married friends are wonderful about including me in activities, dinners at their homes, etc. I know this doesn't often happen, and I count myself very lucky. (And I never feel like it's done out of sympathy.)
Most of these are friends from my church, whom I've gotten to know mainly since divorcing. I don't really have married friends from when I was married, because my ex had become so anti-social that we really didn't have any couple friends.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Went on a date today for the first time in about 10 years. We just went for a walk but it must have gone ok because we're going for coffee next week. Let's see how it goes. I always get worried that I'll have nothing to say. I'm not very good at making conversation but we seem to have similar interests and go to the same gym. It's a step in the right direction.
That kind of faded away really quickly. Oh well. But I can't but feel discouraged every time. I'm doomed. What little hope I had left is slowly fading away, which is not helped by my intense shyness around women.
Many of my close family and friends have got married and had children recently. Whilst I'm genuinely very happy for them I can't help but think I'm missing out. I so very much want to be a husband and a father and if I don't I think I'll be sad for the rest of my life.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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I think you need to be a little less hard on yourself. First date in ten years?! Go, you! That had to have taken a lot of courage!
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
Maybe. Still felt like a work interview. I've always been a glass half empty type of guy and a bit of a wally to boot. Somehow I feel like time is running out. I'm forty this yesr. Yuck! Especially if I want to start a family surely I need to find some one younger than me but who is going to fall for a forty year old. And yes, I haven't taken growing older very well.
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on
:
Also, you could look to foster or adopt as a single dad. Separating your aspirations for fatherhood from coupledom. It can be an appropriate option for some children (e.g. still in contact with biological mum - can't bear the idea of her being "replaced" but never known bio dad.)
Also, there can be roles for volunteers to mentor children who lack positive male role models in their life.
[ 10. January 2015, 23:33: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Especially if I want to start a family surely I need to find some one younger than me but who is going to fall for a forty year old.
You could look for someone close to your age, and if you can't have children with her, adopt. And don't rule out divorced women who already have children.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Especially if I want to start a family surely I need to find some one younger than me but who is going to fall for a forty year old.
You could look for someone close to your age, and if you can't have children with her, adopt. And don't rule out divorced women who already have children.
I would like any children to be biologically my own but I don't rule anything out. I don't know many women my age, in fact none. All the women ai knoe are about 10 years younger than me. To me that isn't a problem but I would guess it is to them, being realistic that is.
Posted by Hazey*Jane (# 8754) on
:
Don't assume. I was in my early 30s and my other half in his early 40s when we got together. Having children is not something currently high up our list of considerations but there is nothing (we know of) preventing it.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
quote:
I've always been a glass half empty type of guy and a bit of a wally to boot.
Me too. IME being married is the toughest marathon ever. We've burned so many of our 15 years together rehearsing our various character flaws and taking lumps out of each other. So I would encourage you to build on that small blurt of self-knowledge and humility. That kind of thing goes a long way in making a relationship even a little bit functional - a lot further than looks, or wit, or youth, or money.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
Ad Orientem, some women go for older men. Just saying.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
I have a friend who was single on his 40th birthday. He was so convinced he'd remain single that he used to give our children noisy / explosive / etc Christmas presents, and vast quantities of sweets.
It's been a great pleasure providing his twins with football rattles / vuvuzelas/ fart whistles / whoopee cushions etc, etc.
His wife is only a couple of years younger.
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
Sounds like he deserved it! I make a point of never giving my nieces or nephews noisy toys or weapons. I just make no such promises about messy things.
Very little chance of a reprisal coming my way.
Posted by Little Miss Methodist (# 1000) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Somehow I feel like time is running out. I'm forty this yesr. Yuck! Especially if I want to start a family surely I need to find some one younger than me but who is going to fall for a forty year old.
I got married last year aged 35, my husband is 46. I know he never thought he would get married!
The age gap is not at all significant for us. Without ever meaning to I seem to have a history of relationships with men older than me, making the age gap between me and Mr Methodist one of the smallest! So, don't write yourself off...
Having said all that, I appreciate that it can make you feel a bit despondent, and I totally felt that way too. Around 33 or so I remember thinking that I should give up on the ideal of getting married / having a family, because I felt it was never going to happen for me.
It's easy for me to say "don't write yourself off" and less easy to do / feel when you are feeling frustrated and disappointed at how things are for you. I would honestly concentrate on doing things that make you happy, and making the most of life as you have it now - partly because someone who is interested and engaged with the things they are doing makes an interesting partner, but mainly because those things give you satisfaction and life and that is important to your well-being.
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
...We've burned so many of our 15 years together rehearsing our various character flaws and taking lumps out of each other...
Even at 30 years we're still discovering disconnects, where what one person considers supportive behavior is experienced as just the opposite by the other. That's not to say that relationships are hopeless, but rather that they require a lot of trust, openness, honesty, self-awareness and hard work to run smoothly.
Regarding the "job interview" aspect of dating - perhaps a change in approach would help? For myself it was a big shift when I finally chose to focus on doing something fun on dates rather than interviewing for a partner, such that both of us could have a good time even if we didn't hit it off as a couple. A side benefit was that it took a lot of the pressure off the "date" aspect and allowed me to relax and enjoy myself more.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
This internet dating thing is quite frustrating. It seems to be that the ones I'm interested in aren't interested in me and the ones that are interested in me I'm not interested in. Who would have thought it was so hard?
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
This internet dating thing is quite frustrating. It seems to be that the ones I'm interested in aren't interested in me and the ones that are interested in me I'm not interested in. Who would have thought it was so hard?
To be fair to the internet, that is my experience in in-person dating as well.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
This internet dating thing is quite frustrating. It seems to be that the ones I'm interested in aren't interested in me and the ones that are interested in me I'm not interested in. Who would have thought it was so hard?
To be fair to the internet, that is my experience in in-person dating as well.
True dat.
I recently spent a while moping 'cos I felt like I was getting rejected all the time (the one long-term relationship I've had ended more through their choice than mine, a couple of guys I went on dates with last year weren't interested beyond the second date, and so on ...).
Then I realised there have been guys who've messaged me on dating websites and, after a few messages, I've been the one to say I can't see it going anywhere. And then I remembered the kind-of odd guy I hung round with for a couple of weeks in the first year of uni before feeling the need to tell him that I didn't think we were going to become an item. So not all my romantic relationship opportunities have been closed down by the other person rejecting me, despite the fact I sometimes feel that way.
Posted by infinite_monkey (# 11333) on
:
A mere 24 hours remains for people to rant and rave about Valentine's Day! Come on folks, have we become this complacent?
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
One of my bikes is named Valentine. Don't know about you, but I'll quite enjoy celebrating his day.
ETA: oh, almost forgot—it's Cheap Chocolate's Eve tomorrow! More to look forward to!
[ 13. February 2015, 17:17: Message edited by: Ariston ]
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
A mere 24 hours remains for people to rant and rave about Valentine's Day! Come on folks, have we become this complacent?
It's bollocks, innit.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
When I was married it was a nothing day. Since I've been single it's been a nothing day. It affects me about as much as today being "Public Broadcasting Day" according to Ye Olde Motherboarde's list.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
They say that Christmas is the most difficult holiday for single people to endure. For me it's Valentine's Day -- always has been. I feel like crawling into a hole sometimes.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
They say that Christmas is the most difficult holiday for single people to endure. For me it's Valentine's Day -- always has been. I feel like crawling into a hole sometimes.
What, in retrospect, was my most successful relationship was with a woman who truly did love me (and whom I drove away--my own fault, I admit it). Her birthday was (and still is, I guess) on February 14. So Valentine's Day is sort of a double whammy for me: not only am I alone for it, but it also must remind me of The One That Got Away (well, technically, was pushed away by the idiot child that I was).
And that is just one of the many reasons I truly hate, loathe and despise the month of February.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
*bump*
Posted by Clint Boggis (# 633) on
:
I pop in here sometimes to read how peoples' lives are working out but it's pretty quiet. Is everyone too involved in pursuing relationship opportunities to report back, or (like me) just settled into resigned solitude and making the best of things while waiting for the End ?
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
:
Nothing to report. Had with internet dating. Waste of time. No one there.
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
Still no activity on the dating front since 2006.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
I have this whole agenda I have set for myself about waiting till my career and living situation is stable before dating seriously. i don't want to be somebody's project. Which means I have been lonely for quite a while.
I am also going through a period of psychosexual self-analysis which I won't bore you with here.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
:
Got a first-date-with-somebody-met-via-internet-dating-website coming up for the first time in well over 6 months. I'm rubbish at dating and meeting new people, but have not resigned myself to singledom quite yet. Fortunately in some ways, work is currently a whirlwind, which leaves me less time to ponder in advance, and get worked up about, the madness of going on a first date again given previous failures.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
I am married, but my single son has boomeranged back and is now living at home, giving me a close view of the singleton life. In the past 2 years he has not gone out on a date. (Always with the proviso that he may have done so, but carefully eluded his mother's observation.) In an effort to improve his social life he has joined some internet dating sites, but never progressed past a desultory conversation or two. He also joined the local Republican Party. To use this as a venue for meeting women is frantic folly; this is a state famed for originating the state-mandated trans-vaginal probe. Women dropped out in droves (and the state is rapidly turning blue), so that I doubt if there are more than a couple female members in the entire region.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
this is a state famed for originating the state-mandated trans-vaginal probe.
Mandated in what circumstances???
Huia
[ 17. May 2015, 09:16: Message edited by: Huia ]
Posted by Kittyville (# 16106) on
:
Women seeking abortion, I think.
Posted by Kittyville (# 16106) on
:
Sorry - posted in the wrong thread.
[ 17. May 2015, 11:41: Message edited by: Kittyville ]
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
psychosexual
For a moment, I thought you were talking about my dating history.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
that's for you to say.
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am also going through a period of psychosexual self-analysis which I won't bore you with here.
I think you might be surprised by just how bored people in fact would NOT be.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
As W. Somerset Maugham is reputed to have said:
quote:
My own belief is that there is hardly anyone whose sexual life, if it were broadcast, would not fill the world at large with surprise and horror.
Except, where I am concerned, I'm not sure about the surprise bit!
Posted by Wayward Crucifer (# 152) on
:
Bumping to avoid the hostly hoover, because this has been fascinating reading as I ponder this end of my life.
Also because, after about 18 months of nagging from a colleague, and it not clashing with things I'm already committed too, I'm putting a tentative toe in the Speed Dating thing tomorrow. It's a first for me, so have sympathy for all the ladies.
Wayward
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
They won't know what hit them! (Tell us how it went )
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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My son, age 26, lives at home and is ISO a mate. We also have a home Bible study, which meets in our family room once a week. This funnels off of our church -- if you join and are looking for a home group they refer you to one that is geographically near you. Yesterday we got a new member -- a 24 year old girl! Cute as a button, clearly a believer.
Only here, where I am certain my son does not come, do I dare confide my hope that she is a specific gift from God. He was not at the Bible study last night (he works nights) but always shows up for the once-a-month pot luck, which by good fortune is next Monday. I solicit all your prayers for that first encounter! Also I will cook something for that pot luck that will foster romance. Perhaps this is the moment for that triple-chocolate fudge cake.
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
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Can you assign them together to the dish-washing detail?
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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Alright, now I'm picturing Brenda behind a big kettle brewing that magic luuurve potion Good luck!
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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It is too soon to do Smoking Bishop, which I have successfully foisted off onto the group by citing its mention in A Christmas Carol. (Candy is dandy, fat is where it's at, but alcohol lowers inhibition.)
Strawberries are no longer in season, which lets out strawberry shortcake, the quickest way to a man's heart. Perhaps peach trifle, if the peaches look good at the farm market. There is something about sweetened whipped cream mounded softly in a large trifle dish...
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
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BC, I think the next time we have a name amnesty you'll have to change your Ship name to "Cupid".
Someone pass her the arrows!
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I will cook something for that pot luck that will foster romance. Perhaps this is the moment for that triple-chocolate fudge cake.
Wouldn't have been my choice for a romantic meal; seems a bit heavy. How about strawberries, pomegranates or oysters?
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
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I'm sure Brenda will be going at this with super-extreme subtlety - or this girl's going to run a mile. Perhaps even not be there at some event they might both be at. Or is it just men who know that if some single-girl-at-church's mother smiles at them, it's wise to leave the engine running and never stay past verse 2 of the final hymn...
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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No, all I am going to do is shovel the food up. I won't even introduce them.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I will cook something for that pot luck that will foster romance. Perhaps this is the moment for that triple-chocolate fudge cake.
Wouldn't have been my choice for a romantic meal; seems a bit heavy. How about strawberries, pomegranates or oysters?
Romantic meal? They have not even met!
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I'm sure Brenda will be going at this with super-extreme subtlety - or this girl's going to run a mile. Perhaps even not be there at some event they might both be at. Or is it just men who know that if some single-girl-at-church's mother smiles at them, it's wise to leave the engine running and never stay past verse 2 of the final hymn...
Women know it too. I'm in my 60s, but in an organization where I'm involved there's an absolutely lovely (and very wealthy) woman who has picked me out for her son. Luckily, I usually attend events with a friend who makes sure I'm never left alone with them. I really like the mother, but her son is a total loser.
Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Crucifer:
Bumping to avoid the hostly hoover, because this has been fascinating reading as I ponder this end of my life.
Also because, after about 18 months of nagging from a colleague, and it not clashing with things I'm already committed too, I'm putting a tentative toe in the Speed Dating thing tomorrow. It's a first for me, so have sympathy for all the ladies.
Wayward
Good luck.
As for myself, I had more-or-less completely lost hope after too many years of being single and desperate but I was unexpectedly introduced to a friend of a friend and we've been seeing each other for a couple of months now. I always used to stress about not having anything to say on a date but there was no awkwardness between us and we have lots in common. My feet are firmly on the ground but we do like each other and we enjoy each other's company, so who knows? It's been nice.
[ 16. September 2015, 17:11: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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My idea is that if it is meant to be then it will indeed be easy. There won't be any stress, it'll just grow. If you have to buck against the stream all the way, that's a sign -- the other way.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
Ad Orientem: As for myself, I had more-or-less completely lost hope after too many years of being single and desperate but I was unexpectedly introduced to a friend of a friend and we've been seeing each other for a couple of months now. I always used to stress about not having anything to say on a date but there was no awkwardness between us and we have lots in common. My feet are firmly on the ground but we do like each other and we enjoy each other's company, so who knows? It's been nice.
Wow, sounds good.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
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What do you do when someone who might possibly be of interest to you, yet was dating a close friend and was thus off-limits to even consider, becomes single again? I ask purely as a hypothetical, of course...
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
MarsmanTJ: What do you do when someone who might possibly be of interest to you, yet was dating a close friend and was thus off-limits to even consider, becomes single again? I ask purely as a hypothetical, of course...
Go for it.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Gently moving a pawn forward to see what results is not overly bold. If there is no response, let it drop.
Posted by Scots lass (# 2699) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Crucifer:
Bumping to avoid the hostly hoover, because this has been fascinating reading as I ponder this end of my life.
Also because, after about 18 months of nagging from a colleague, and it not clashing with things I'm already committed too, I'm putting a tentative toe in the Speed Dating thing tomorrow. It's a first for me, so have sympathy for all the ladies.
Wayward
How did it go? Don't be put off if it wasn't great - I've been speed dating twice, the first time was terrible and when I was persuaded back by a friend 18 months later I met a really nice guy. We're getting married in just over a fortnight.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
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quote:
Originally posted by MarsmanTJ:
What do you do when someone who might possibly be of interest to you, yet was dating a close friend and was thus off-limits to even consider, becomes single again? I ask purely as a hypothetical, of course...
Dither and overthink until you've sent yourself nuts and close friend is no longer single? No? Just me then...
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Hanging around after church, usually with some others, lots of lunches during the week, he declared "feelings," I said "just friends," half a year later he year mentioned it again, I said I'm not the type to settle down, two months later thought crosses my mind maybe I'd rather live with a backyard chicken farmer than travel the world - huh, where did that come from?
How sure should one be? Should I raise the subject Sunday or wait a bit to be more sure?
Didn't make it to Sunday. Friday he was dead, run over by a truck.
Next time (if there is a next time) - gonna grab him fast! Time can be much shorter than expected.
Gotta get out and circulate!
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Oh dear, well clearly it was not Meant. Yes, get on out there.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
Belle Ringer: Didn't make it to Sunday. Friday he was dead, run over by a truck.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Oh dear, well clearly it was not Meant. Yes, get on out there.
Yes after the screaming protest shock diminished (I had marveled that love diminishes the importance of the negatives) I admit it would have been difficult. He was in poor health in a variety of ways. Maybe God spared me (and him) several years of difficult life. And yet -- sigh.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Belle Ringer: Didn't make it to Sunday. Friday he was dead, run over by a truck.
Exactly.
The good part - they say he was probably unconscious immediately, and was dead within half an hour. That beats a lot of ways to die.
Life can change so suddenly, any age you can be hit by a truck or a diagnosis. I was rear-ended almost 2 years ago, still far from recovered, they now say I have not just traumatic brain injury but also stroke - crashes can do that!
Gotta get my health back and find me a man.
Anyone use Match.com or the like?
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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I have friends who have found true love on the internet. But you do have at least as many duds as you do in real life. There's an ongoing column in the Guardian, by a woman who is doing online dating. The number of men who offer to show her their naughty bits by return email, or immediately suggest getting together for a shag, is truly depressing.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
Brenda Clough: The number of men who offer to show her their naughty bits by return email, or immediately suggest getting together for a shag, is truly depressing.
I've never done internet dating, but this suggests to me that a man who doesn't offer to show his naughty bits might have a good chance of a response.
(BTW, how did your witch cake go?)
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Was that me?
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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Yes sorry, I was referring to this post.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There's an ongoing column in the Guardian, by a woman who is doing online dating. The number of men who offer to show her their naughty bits by return email, or immediately suggest getting together for a shag, is truly depressing.
Back a couple decades (pre web) I answered some ads in the newspaper. Always lunch dates during the week - if he kidnaps me I'll be missed within an hour.
I have stories!
Only one second date. (My choice as much as theirs, not to meet again.) One man, third date he suddenly ended it when he realized I wasn't going to do the "third date ends with sex" thing. He had politely sat through two and a half dates to get to the payoff, not because he found me interesting.
My recent truck-crash ended romance was so different, he was fascinated by me, whether or not he ever got to have sex. That's awesome. Sex as an expression of a relationship not as the reason for putting up with someone.
There's a man here I kinda like but he is a bit too much playboy for me. Another I've flirted with who doesn't respond, turns out it's because I look so young he thought I was his daughter's age; now he's more responsive to a "Hi!" but really not interested, he is married to his work.
I was going to call up an old friend but found out he died of cancer a week earlier.
I'll just have to make new friends!
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
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I've been on OKCupid for years, have received dozens if not hundreds of messages on there and don't think I've ever had a guy offer to email me rude pics or suggest an immediate shag. Then again, I do delete without answering all the "Hi sexy, how r u?" messages*, sometimes blocking the sender as well to be on the safe side.
(* Any message which shows no sign of the sender having read my profile and which has probably been sent to dozens of women in one night, any message in text speak, etc. These do make up a lot of the 'dozens if not hundreds' of messages I've received - but I've still had a few decent conversations and 4 not-completely-awful dates via OKCupid.)
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
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Thinking about this further ... whilst not utterly butt-ugly, I am not stunningly beautiful or attractive (certainly not by conventional standards) and I also have an aversion to having my photo taken which means I have possess very few flattering photos of myself. This may make a difference in what messages one receives via online dating. I can imagine a more conventionally attractive woman of my age with a good-quality photo showing her attractiveness on her profile, might end up with more of the instant offers of rude pics and/or sex.
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
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Oh, my son and this girl have yet to be in the same room together. What with his working nights and her not being at our last pot luck. However, we have a pot luck once a month, and the next one is Monday! So we shall see.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
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I've been wondering about asking advice here in relation to some stuff going on in my life.
For now, I would just like to say - my head hurts and human relationships are too messy and complicated and full of opportunities to hurt other people and be hurt (but sadly I haven't sussed the knack of existing without close human relationships).
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
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Fuck it. Let's just ask the questions I want people's opinions on.
Background scenario as follows:
A (me) + B had their first romantic relationship with each other and would both agree it was a significant relationship. The break-up was very messy, but after a while they agreed to be friends and have remained close friends for 10 years following said break-up.
Also relevant to all of this is that I (A) am a bit of a weird, depressive loner in general and do not have large numbers of close or trusted friends.
In the 10 years after A and B break up, B dates various people before meeting C, with whom he develops a serious long-term relationship.
At the same time, after very little dating activity for 10 years, A is in the early stages of dating D and is smitten with D, who is thoroughly wonderful.
B and C then get engaged.
Questions:
* What proportion of people in A's position would be able to be thoroughly, unequivocally happy for B and C with no tinge of regret or sadness or anything about past events and hurts?
* Am I deluding myself if I believe that the reason I'm upset is to do with stuff about feelings of loss and rejection from 10 years ago plus ongoing issues regarding loneliness, rather than because I would particularly want to be in a romantic relationship with B again now?
* Is D going to be upset or think it reflects badly on our emerging relationship that I've been kind-of upset about B and C getting engaged?
Both B and D are thoroughly, thoroughly wonderful people. I want both of them to be happy and in that sense I am happy for B and C. But I'm thinking that maybe it doesn't make me a hideous person if my emotional response to B and C getting engaged is more mixed and messed-up than pure, straightforward happiness for them?
(B knows who I am on the Ship and I'm 95%+ sure that he knows and accepts that my emotional response to his news is a bit mixed. D might or might not recognise himself and the situation if he reads this. I am utterly, utterly smitten with D. I don't think we yet know each other as well as B and I know each other, but I want that to happen over time. And I don't want D to think I'm still hankering after a relationship with B - which I don't think I am.)
Argh. This is why my summary was to say that my head hurts.
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
B and C then get engaged.
Questions:
* What proportion of people in A's position would be able to be thoroughly, unequivocally happy for B and C with no tinge of regret or sadness or anything about past events and hurts?
0% - though quite alot of them will be facebooking / tweeting with surprising frequency about how everything is fine, and they have just done this wonderful course, and got a fab new hairstyle and are basically fine, of course they are fine, why does everyone keep asking if they are fine, obviously they are fine.
* Am I deluding myself if I believe that the reason I'm upset is to do with stuff about feelings of loss and rejection from 10 years ago plus ongoing issues regarding loneliness, rather than because I would particularly want to be in a romantic relationship with B again now?
No you are not deluding yourself you are almost certainly right.
* Is D going to be upset or think it reflects badly on our emerging relationship that I've been kind-of upset about B and C getting engaged?
Don't know, a sensible person would understand, but if possible you might want to have your most heartfelt conversations with another person you trust.
Both B and D are thoroughly, thoroughly wonderful people. I want both of them to be happy and in that sense I am happy for B and C. But I'm thinking that maybe it doesn't make me a hideous person if my emotional response to B and C getting engaged is more mixed and messed-up than pure, straightforward happiness for them?
You are right, this is the nature of the human condition.
(B knows who I am on the Ship and I'm 95%+ sure that he knows and accepts that my emotional response to his news is a bit mixed. D might or might not recognise himself and the situation if he reads this. I am utterly, utterly smitten D. I don't think we yet know each other as well as B and I know each other, but I want that to happen over time. And I don't want D to think I'm still hankering after a relationship with B - which I don't think I am.)
Maybe write saying basically this last paragraph but expressed in a letter - convential phrasing for B being something like - I wish you every happiness for the future, but I am sure you'll understand my feelings are a little mixed at the moment so I'll need to give myself some space.
[ 15. December 2015, 23:06: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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It all sounds thoroughly normal and human to me. Not having mixed feelings would be unusual, no matter how long ago the breakup was, or how thoroughly glad you are that it turned out that way.
Hopefully D will be understanding of this very normal reaction, but I wouldn't rub D's nose in it by using D as a sounding board on the subject. After all, jealousy is also a normal human reaction, no matter how uncalled for.
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Yep, totally normal. It's the final closing of a door, and you'll need to process it.
I think with time the sting will disappear, and, as you see them happy while you draw closer to D, you can feel more unequivocal in your joy for them.
Meanwhile, I am attempting to cure myself of my attraction to The Unsuitable Man by internet dating. I've had several dates with The Software Engineer, but he hasn't attempted to kiss me since the first, so I think we are firmly in the friend zone.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Mad Cat, I was under the impression that my now-husband and I were in the friendzone for the first 7 weeks of our relationship, during which we went out together twice weekly, and met for coffee as well (same university campus, so easy to meet for coffee).
Happily, one if his flatmates asked him if we were dating, he said yes, and his flatmate passed this useful piece of information onto me.
I had been hoping we would move towards being boyfriend / girlfriend so was delighted to find out that I had been his girlfriend for several weeks without realising.
That was almost thirty years ago. 27th wedding anniversary coming up.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
* What proportion of people in A's position would be able to be thoroughly, unequivocally happy for B and C with no tinge of regret or sadness or anything about past events and hurts?
Probably not many. And no, I don't think it means you secretly want to get back together with B.
quote:
* Is D going to be upset or think it reflects badly on our emerging relationship that I've been kind-of upset about B and C getting engaged?
Is D going to be upset? Yes, maybe, and that's also entirely normal. Just as you can have sad thoughts about B getting engaged, so can D have sad thoughts about you having sad thoughts...
Will D think it reflects badly? Not if he's rational. Having the emotional response is OK. Thinking that an emotional response is the same as rational thought is an error.
Posted by Jengie jon (# 273) on
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Mad Cat
I am no expert, but I suspect that you really should ask him outright what his intentions are. From my experience of working in an area where lots of people are software developer types, then demonstrating affection especially if initially rebuffed is not something they are confident in doing.
Jengie
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Thanks for the tips folks!
Yeah, I should ask him what he thinks, as he's keen enough to keep in touch quite regularly. A nice chap..... maybe not as nice as The Unsuitable Man, but then, he's unsuitable.
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
...From my experience of working in an area where lots of people are software developer types, then demonstrating affection especially if initially rebuffed is not something they are confident in doing.
Being that sort of man myself, I strongly agree with this. Some men need more encouragement and/or more obvious indications of your interest than others.
That doesn't mean that a direct question is always the best approach - it can be too much of a shock if it doesn't also come with some indication of how you feel about him to give him some sense of context. (Otherwise he may worry too much about giving the "right" answer that won't offend you.)
For those who aren't quite read to ask direct questions, you can try inviting him over for dinner, then having him hold the stool for you as you hang some mistletoe in a convenient spot "in case someone wants to snog me". A true software engineer would, of course, insist on verification that it works properly...
Posted by Mad Cat (# 9104) on
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Happy New Year, love birds! May our romantic hope prosper in 2016
So I saw The Software Engineer just before Christmas. The moment didn't come up to ask 'The Question', and I reckoned we could do that as well after Christmas as right before it. He's still keeping in touch, but less frequently than before. In the interests of not stringing him along, I think we need to have another coffee soon....
Meanwhile, I am still thinking of The Unsuitable Man, who on reflection may in fact be for me, The Suitable Man. The men I've loved before have been rather cut from the same cloth as he is. Those relationships ended because they turned into long-distance relationships, not because of incompatibility, and they were good relationships - we were on the same page.
Everyone I've talked to who knows The Unsuitable Man warned me to be careful. However, I think there comes a time when you have to follow your heart, and someone who looks like the wrong man for most people, is actually the right man for me, maybe??
I had a good chat to my lovely friend A last night and updated her on the situation (which she's been following with great interest!) She agreed that it's hard to really move on if you harbour a strong hope for someone.
Basically, our paths need to cross, so we can have a chat, catch up, and I can see if he still has any interest. We live in the same city, but our social circles have only a little overlap, so I might not run into him until next August, if even then.... I can't make a meeting happen. I need to be patient and see if it will, and have faith in God that if it's meant to be that it will happen.
I am EXCEPTIONALLY BAD at being patient. I'm terrible for trying to 'do' when I should just let be. This is still my Advent lesson - to wait, to let God do His thing.....
In the meantime, I am praying for this Suitable/Unsuitable Man, because it helps me to pray for myself. He needs healing and so do I. We both need love, and are both rather clumsy about our search for it.
Posted by Paul. (# 37) on
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for any finding today tough.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
for any finding today tough.
Or if a laugh would help...
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul.:
for any finding today tough.
Extremely. I have to wait another 24 hours until the chocolates go on sale!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Ha! I have a $15 See's card with February 15th written all over it.(metaphorically)
Today I am driving down the coast, and pouring one out for the late Bev Bos.
I am still loath to date, but for the last two months or so I have bern oppressively libidinous. No joke, it's getting really distracting. I feel like a fifteen year old boy. Is this a perimenopause thing?
Anyway, it makes v- day somewhat frustrating. Chocolate is a stand in.
Posted by Japes (# 5358) on
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This appealed to my sense of humour ...
Posted by Doone (# 18470) on
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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
...I feel like a fifteen year old boy...
Are they readily available where you live?
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
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I'm reminded of an exchange in Chelmsford 123 where the Britons are sneaking up under cover of darkness to the Romans' villa:
Mungo: I feel like a wolf.
Blag (the resident thicko): Yeah, I'm a bit peckish too.
Posted by basso (# 4228) on
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I admire the loving support we give to shipmates at times like these...
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by basso:
I admire the loving support we give to shipmates at times like these...
But often laughter is the best support.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
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Well, Sunday was Valentine's Day.
The earth certainly moved for the people of Christchurch...
Huia
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
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I studiously avoided church yesterday as there was a wedding incorporated into the service. What made it all the worse was that I kept being asked to sign a card for the couple, yet I have no idea who they are. It didn't particularly help when I pointed this out a couple of weeks ago and instead of being suitable pointed in their direction I was flatly contradicted and told "Of course you know who they are!"
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Is this a perimenopause thing?
Sounds to me like a day with a 'y' in it.
I've never been particularly bothered by being a single person on Valentines Day, anymore than being a woman on Father's Day. Right up until receiving chocolate from my Mum. There's nothing to hammer home your lack of partner quite as much as having to settle for a galaxy bar from your Mother.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
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Mmmmmmm ... Galaxy chocolate ... **sigh**
One of the things missed by this expat piglet.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by basso:
I admire the loving support we give to shipmates at times like these...
But often laughter is the best support.
As long as it's inclusive. Sorry to be a buzz kill, but as a teacher I am gonna be squeamish about jokes associating me with underage boys.
I have this mental limit- I started teaching at age 18, in 1987. If someone's birth date suggests to me I might have diapered them had I known them at that time, I can't do it. So, like 1985 or so is cutting it close.
Thanks for understanding, Arachnid.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by basso:
I admire the loving support we give to shipmates at times like these...
But often laughter is the best support.
As long as it's inclusive. Sorry to be a buzz kill, but as a teacher I am gonna be squeamish about jokes associating me with underage boys.
I have this mental limit- I started teaching at age 18, in 1987. If someone's birth date suggests to me I might have diapered them had I known them at that time, I can't do it. So, like 1985 or so is cutting it close.
Thanks for understanding, Arachnid.
You're very welcome
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
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No one's proposed to me yet.
13.5 hours to go before the window closes for another 4 years.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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Fly west! It'll give you a couple of extra hours
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
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I dunno. America has forfeited the right to call itself a civilised country, Canada is very expensive and for the rest, I don't speak Spanish or Portuguese.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
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Canada's not that expensive: the last time I looked, you could get about two of our $ for every £.
Anyway, you've got four years when you can propose to her.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
I dunno. America has forfeited the right to call itself a civilised country, Canada is very expensive and for the rest, I don't speak Spanish or Portuguese.
Sipech, please don't make blanket contentious comments in All Saints, it can have a very bad effect on my blood pressure, amongst other effects!
WW - AS Host.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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quote:
LeRoc: Fly west!
quote:
Sipech: I dunno.
I met a nice girl on a plane once
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
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Didn't Hannibal Lector use planes?
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
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Hi all. I'm single, but happily so - though would definitely be happy in a relationship with the right person - so don't usually post here. However I recently ran into a man I had met once before at a friend's house, at a Christian social event. We got on well and I had the feeling he was keen on me and sure enough he asked if we could catch up for coffee.
The problem was I added him on Facebook before the date and found out he has some very right wing views. He doesn't post anything hateful himself, but 'likes' quite a lot of posts about Muslims that I found very offensive. Eg. a picture of a weapon that fires multiple bullets with a caption that it would be great to use against Muslims. He also liked a post with a cartoon picture of a 'gay' viking which another poster said represented what Swedish men had become now they had let 'Muslims invade' Sweden.
I'm really quite left wing and know lots of Muslims, including a girl I tutor. I also support gay rights and have a younger brother who is gay and who was in a relationship until recently (some conservative Christians don't mind gay people who are celibate, but balk at them having a relationship). So at this point I decided things would certainly never work out between myself and this man!
However I decided to go on the date out of politeness and to be able to tell my friends I gave the guy a chance. I was hoping it might not eventuate as he had seen my FB photo which showed my support for gay marriage and my posts on helping refugees and not judging all African migrants or Muslims for the crimes of a minority of people from those backgrounds.
However we did end up catching up for coffee. I was really nice, but managed to talk lots about my left wing views in the context of general conversation given that I do volunteer work with refugee kids, including Muslims. I even talked about the difference between free speech and hate speech when he said it was good that people could say what they like online now because with so many people saying it they can't be arrested!
He then wanted to go for a bush walk nearby, which I agreed to since I knew there would be a lot of people around (just in case he was a murdering psychopath who wanted to bury me in a shallow bush grave ). After that I obviously hadn't put him off with my left wing views as he wanted to go for a drive! But I said no thanks to that. Later however I tentatively agreed to catch up for a movie, saying I was pretty busy the next couple of weeks though, then got into my house and wondered what I did that for! My bleeding liberal heart got the better of me.
On the drive home we somehow got to discussing the US election. I know he would vote right wing if he was a US citizen, but at least he did say it would be a worry if Trump was president and had access to nuclear weapons. The last straw for me in deciding I needed to cancel that second date was when I saw on FB he had replied to a post on who would be the best US President and VP with Trump and Carson! By now I'm wondering how I managed to date a man with these political views.
I wrote him a message explaining quite bluntly that things would never work out between us because of our opposing political views. I even put in a screed about how hate speech leads to hate acts and discrimination thinking that would end this all for sure. I also reiterated my support for gay marriage. He replied saying he understood and I was a 'sweet girl who was very easy on the eyes'. However we then got into a deeper conversation about our views and he wanted my views on hellfire! My views on the afterlife are also liberal though I don't really think we can know for sure what happens when we die. This will definitely put this guy off, I thought.
But no, he keeps contacting me and I think maybe is still hopeful of a relationship, even though I was blunt about not being interested in one. There are plenty of single right wing Christian women he could date. How do I politely end things? I may end up running into him again so don't want to just ignore him. Nor do I want to have endless online conversations that give him hope I will change my mind.
I don't often have men falling head over heels in love with me, but in the past when they have they take a while to get over it. I give up hope straight away when I realise someone I have a crush on is not interested, especially if they have straight out told me so. I don't really understand this persistence on the part of men who pursue me when I have given no encouragement. Any advice welcome!
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
There are some famous matches between political opposites -- James Carville and Mary Matalin somehow make it work. If you find it impossible to contemplate however I would continue politely declining invitations.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
Mili, I think you are falling into the trap of thinking you have to give this guy a *reason* for not wanting to date him any more. You don't. There is nothing rude about saying "Sorry, but I don't think this is going to work out for me. Thank you for the date, but I don't want to go on any more."
If he keeps on pestering you, he's the one being rude, not you. At this point, you say "I've already told you I don't want to date you any more. Please don't insist." Again, no reasons. You don't want to pursue this, you don't owe the guy anything, and that's the end of it. If he still won't leave you alone, you are perfectly entitled to block him on social media and stop answering his calls (if you want to, that is).
The reason for going on a date is to see if you think it's worth taking things further. You've decided it isn't, and that's your right. You've only been on ONE date. That doesn't commit you IMO.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
He seems needy and clingy. Drop him.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
The problem was I added him on Facebook before the date and found out he has some very right wing views. He doesn't post anything hateful himself, but 'likes' quite a lot of posts about Muslims that I found very offensive. Eg. a picture of a weapon that fires multiple bullets with a caption that it would be great to use against Muslims. He also liked a post with a cartoon picture of a 'gay' viking which another poster said represented what Swedish men had become now they had let 'Muslims invade' Sweden.
Erm, just to say that this is not right wing, that's extremist. You can be right wing without wanting to kill anybody.
It may be all talk with your guy and that in real life he'd never actually want to pick up a gun against Muslims, but endorsing that kind of thing is a danger signal to other personal qualities that aren't great for relationships. I suggest you play it cool to indifferent. Don't initiate contact; if there is any on his part, keep it to a minimum with increasing delays in between and fade it out, then quietly drop him after a while. You're not obliged to answer messages promptly, or even at all. Don't give him an opening: close it down or deflect it each time.
In a way it's actually a good thing you added him on Facebook before the date and saw what he was endorsing, otherwise you might still be in for an unpleasant surprise.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
...If you find it impossible to contemplate however I would continue politely declining invitations.
Sometimes it gets to the point where declining politely stops working and a quick but rather less polite response may be called for.
Posted by Mili (# 3254) on
:
Thanks for all the advice. It makes me feel it is ok not to answer his messages, given I have been clear I am not interested in a relationship. I know I didn't have to give reasons why, but as I may run into him again socially I thought it might be less awkward in the long run to give a reason. Plus I was hoping he would lose interest if he realised how left-wing I was. I will try just fading out the contact and maybe sending a blunt reply that I don't want him to contact me any more if he doesn't get the message and keeps contacting me. And block him on FB and my phone if need be. Also nice to know that I'm not the only one to think his views extreme. He claimed to have Muslim friends, but I don't think they are his friends on Facebook if that is so, as they would see the nasty, hate-filled posts about Muslims that he 'likes'.
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
Hmmm...after a pretty horrible week at work (mostly exacerbated by colleagues), I was bit down and at a loose end on Friday evening. I ended up signing up for an online dating site. First time ever.
Thought it was quite merciful that there were no faces there that I recognised. Though I noted on one of the first profiles I looked at was an update from "a friend" with a link to some recent news stories that the person had just been imprisoned for three years for fraud.
Three day trial ends today. In spite of a couple of reasonable conversations, I don't think I'll be paying for a 6 month subscription. Back to my little hermit hovel.
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
:
six years of singleness is getting rather dull I must say...
[ 16. May 2016, 11:23: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
Pulled the plug on the account. Looks like I'm going to hit my 10 year anniversary as a singleton after all.
Not that there was ever much doubt over that.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
I genuinely can't remember how long it is for me, but it has to be around 10 years.
Far too long, and it wasn't as if the immediately preceding relationship was a particularly good preparation for anything long-lasting in the future.
I hate the thought that I seem to be solidifying into a perennial bachelor, but....
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
It's a fine line between not worrying and just getting on with having a life, and giving up entirely.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
It's a fine line between not worrying and just getting on with having a life, and giving up entirely.
The first can bring the second by default. It's so long now since I thought of being part of a couple that the concept feels alien, like a feature of someone else's life.
Posted by betjemaniac (# 17618) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
It's a fine line between not worrying and just getting on with having a life, and giving up entirely.
The first can bring the second by default. It's so long now since I thought of being part of a couple that the concept feels alien, like a feature of someone else's life.
this.
Posted by Yangtze (# 4965) on
:
Thunderbunk and Betjemaniac....I don't know how old or what sexual orientation either of you are but come to some London shipmeets some time - there are a fair few singletons (of both genders) of varying ages around at them. You never know....
And they're fun anyway. Which reminds me, we don't seem to have had one for a while.
(Didn't mean to exclude Sipech, who I've just realised I met at not a London shipmeet so forget you are not a London Meet regular, or Arachnid (but not sure where you're based.))
[ 17. May 2016, 10:25: Message edited by: Yangtze ]
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Yangtze:
(Didn't mean to exclude Sipech, who I've just realised I met at not a London shipmeet so forget you are not a London Meet regular, or Arachnid (but not sure where you're based.))
We've met? You have me at a loss.
I tend to avoid the London shipmeets as they tend to take place in pubs, which are places I can't stand.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
We do walks and other things, not just pubs. We've been on the London Eye, a boat trip, Kensington Palace, Shakespeare's Globe and Folk by the Oak. Which reminds me, does anyone else want to go to Folk by the Oak this year?
And if we're discussing time single I think it's 16 years.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
Love to join you in the nation's capital, subject to the vagaries of public transport from the centre of the known universe (TM)
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
Tell me about Folk by the Oak, please.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
I went to Folk by the Oak with Curiosity Killed last year, I can strongly recommend it.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Yangtze:
Thunderbunk and Betjemaniac....I don't know how old or what sexual orientation either of you are but come to some London shipmeets some time - there are a fair few singletons (of both genders) of varying ages around at them. You never know....
And they're fun anyway. Which reminds me, we don't seem to have had one for a while.
(Didn't mean to exclude Sipech, who I've just realised I met at not a London shipmeet so forget you are not a London Meet regular, or Arachnid (but not sure where you're based.))
Thanks, Yangtze, if ever I'm in the right place at the right time a shipmeet sounds good. I'm based in West Yorkshire and attended a Huddersfield shipmeet last year (and had an excellent time).
I dislike doing things with the sole purpose of partnering up, but am partial to company of others.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
I'd love to meet again in London, which for me would be for non-partnering purposes.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
I enjoyed a London meet three years ago. I'll be there again next month -- if the timing is right, I'd love to join you.
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
I need to add -- not for match-up purposes. I've been happily single for 14 years and have no desire to change that status.
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
I don't think anyone would be treating the Ship or a meet as a dating agency. I just want to see what you bunch of freaks look like!
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
:
quote:
ThunderBunk: I don't think anyone would be treating the Ship or a meet as a dating agency.
There have been specific dating threads on the Ship in the past.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
I wasn't suggesting a dating meet either, I just like meeting people, and, although I'll do things on my own if I want to do them, some things are better in a group, however small.
London Meet thread started.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I don't think anyone would be treating the Ship or a meet as a dating agency. I just want to see what you bunch of freaks look like!
"Tigglet's Dating Agency" was probably before your time, but it seemed to work for some people (now happily married to other shipmates and most of them don't post any more).
Posted by Snags (# 15351) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
Tell me about Folk by the Oak, please.
Folk by the Oak is an annual Folk festival at Hatfield House, just up t'road from here. It's on my "really ought to go one year" list that I never quite get around to crossing off.
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
I could be up for something like that. Always providing I'm not spending a third summer recovering from surgery.
That's not a whinge - my two hip replacements have been life-transforming and VERY GOOD IDEAS. Hopefully not a tradition, though.
Posted by Yam-pk (# 12791) on
:
I hate dating. I'm going to become a monk
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I don't think anyone would be treating the Ship or a meet as a dating agency. I just want to see what you bunch of freaks look like!
"Tigglet's Dating Agency" was probably before your time, but it seemed to work for some people (now happily married to other shipmates and most of them don't post any more).
Oooo!! Now that's almost giving me ideas - it's just a question of where to plant the seeds....
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
In my area the women have a saying, that it is furnished with only three kinds of men. Men are either married, gay, or too weird to get married. This is usually not a problem for the men involved (we will put aside the complaints of area women), but I did hear of one downside last night. The man is one of my husband's work acquaintances, your classic too weird to get married fellow: a computer geek low on the social graces and uninterested in human interaction. He has gotten on magnificently by himself for fifty or sixty years, writing code fifty hours every week and being paid handsomely for it. But time is not our friend. He had a major health issue, and realized that there was nobody -- nobody to drive him to the doctor, nobody to get his prescriptions filled, nobody to help him in and out of bed at three in the morning. Suddenly, now, he is ISO a family.
Posted by Yam-pk (# 12791) on
:
I would be out there extolling the virtues of internet dating but the women I've met through them, have all had, God love 'em, *problems*
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
I may, of course, be both too weird for marriage and too gay for marriage to a woman. Other forms of marriage, of course, are now available...
Disclaimer: this is neither a criticism of Brenda Clough nor an attempt to import a dead horse; just an observation on my own situation.
Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on
:
I know several straight men, including myself, who have had little success in engaging the interest of women. I don't think any of us is all that weird, though that could be wishful thinking I suppose as we are clearly missing something.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
You say weird like it's a bad thing
I maintain that for a lot of us it's just very bad luck. I've had more than one person who knows me through work or church assume that I had a partner and/or children so I can't be walking around with 'freak' tattooed on my head.
There's nothing missing in us, we're just not in the right place at the right time.
Posted by Zoey (# 11152) on
:
Why is the saying only applied to men, Brenda? I'm female and pretty sure I'm in the "too weird to get married" category.
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The man is one of my husband's work acquaintances, your classic too weird to get married fellow: a computer geek low on the social graces and uninterested in human interaction. He has gotten on magnificently by himself for fifty or sixty years, writing code fifty hours every week and being paid handsomely for it. But time is not our friend. He had a major health issue, and realized that there was nobody -- nobody to drive him to the doctor, nobody to get his prescriptions filled, nobody to help him in and out of bed at three in the morning. Suddenly, now, he is ISO a family.
I am trying to figure out why you posted this on a thread mostly used by single people.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I know several straight men, including myself, who have had little success in engaging the interest of women. I don't think any of us is all that weird, though that could be wishful thinking I suppose as we are clearly missing something.
If you have a female friend or relative you feel you can trust, I'd suggest asking her advice about what would be helpful. If you feel comfortable enough to ask her to look over your written intro, or profile, or help you choose a good picture, that might be useful too. I appreciate you might not have anyone you feel you can ask this of, but it's worth a try.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Zoey:
Why is the saying only applied to men, Brenda? I'm female and pretty sure I'm in the "too weird to get married" category.
Trust me, I know enough weird couples to state this is not necessarily the case. Oddness is more tricky.
Anything out of the ordinary lowers the odds, no pun intended, but there is always hope.
At least I hope so. I am weird and odd. The odd creates more issues than the weird.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I am trying to figure out why you posted this on a thread mostly used by single people.
Because her friend is single? Because this is a thread in which his problem fits?
Her post is hardly the most irrelevant to the general theme posting we've had here, I think it fits.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by ThunderBunk:
I don't think anyone would be treating the Ship or a meet as a dating agency. I just want to see what you bunch of freaks look like!
"Tigglet's Dating Agency" was probably before your time, but it seemed to work for some people (now happily married to other shipmates and most of them don't post any more).
I was a dinner guest at that! But sadly not with the same success as the others you mention. I must be the 'too weird for marriage' kind of person (of the female kind) that Brenda Clough adverts to. Didn't realize it was an official category for single unattacheds. Maybe I was off school the day they did the innoculations against 'weird-unmarried'.
Posted by Carex (# 9643) on
:
The phrase used in Alaska, where some communities may have upwards of 5 single men per single woman, is:
The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
The phrase used in Alaska, where some communities may have upwards of 5 single men per single woman, is:
The odds are good, but the goods are odd.
Yep, that's in usage in the UK too, in my experience in University science departments.
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on
:
Some of us are going to take our ball back and go to play over here.
[ 06. June 2016, 21:20: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
Posted by RuthW (# 13) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I am trying to figure out why you posted this on a thread mostly used by single people.
Because her friend is single? Because this is a thread in which his problem fits?
Her post is hardly the most irrelevant to the general theme posting we've had here, I think it fits.
Irrelevance is not my complaint.
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I am trying to figure out why you posted this on a thread mostly used by single people.
Because her friend is single? Because this is a thread in which his problem fits?
Her post is hardly the most irrelevant to the general theme posting we've had here, I think it fits.
Irrelevance is not my complaint.
Then what is?
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
Isn't there an inference that posting the details of an eligible bachelor will have all the single ladies asking him to put a ring on it?
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Isn't there an inference that posting the details of an eligible bachelor will have all the single ladies asking him to put a ring on it?
In this instance, real life does not reflect song lyrics.
The same was also true when I tried dotting my front yard with glasses of milkshake.
Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I am trying to figure out why you posted this on a thread mostly used by single people.
Because her friend is single? Because this is a thread in which his problem fits?
Her post is hardly the most irrelevant to the general theme posting we've had here, I think it fits.
Irrelevance is not my complaint.
Then what is?
The original post implies, though may not have intended to, that being single is a negative state likely to lead to a crap old age. Reading this when you are single and middle aged may lead to - shall we say - mixed feelings rather than a warm glow of feeling supported.
[ 08. June 2016, 09:47: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
I get the impression - maybe wrong? - that Ruth's post was a questioning of Brenda Clough's post about a man whom she describes as a 'too weird to get married' type; who in his less youthful years was feeling lonely, had health issues and was now looking around for practical companionship to alleviate said problems. Eg, 'he realized he had nobody' to do all those jobs that apparently (though I don't believe it is always necessarily the case) partnered people do have someone to do for them; as in, give lifts, fetch scripts, get them out of bed.
The inference very clearly is that now it no longer suits this 'too weird to be married' person to be single, he's looking out for a wife/partner to be his gopher.
Ruth - rather reasonably, I thought - asked, why this post would be of any use or encouragement on a support thread for the, generally speaking, reluctantly single unattacheds.
I do apologise if I've misread this, sincerely. But that is precisely how I read that particular post, too.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
But that is within the remit of this thread. It is not ours to judge too closely the motives of people seeking partners, not on this thread on this board.
Many people seeking marriage are looking for a helper as much as a partner. Brenda is putting it bluntly, but I've heard that scenario shaded with more grey and generally receive sympathy.
Not defending the subject of her post, just adding context.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
I was accompanied during my weeding today by one of the visiting cats from next door. There are two visiting cats (Romeo and Twinkle) that like to follow at heel a la Nigel the dog from Gardener's World. They're partial to a bit of companionship.
I decided to stay outside and sit on my doorstep with a book in one hand and a cat in the other. A very calming occupation.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
Very many apologies. This nonsense should have been posted on another thread.
As you were.
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But that is within the remit of this thread. It is not ours to judge too closely the motives of people seeking partners, not on this thread on this board.
Many people seeking marriage are looking for a helper as much as a partner. Brenda is putting it bluntly, but I've heard that scenario shaded with more grey and generally receive sympathy.
Not defending the subject of her post, just adding context.
I see the point you're making and have no problem with that. But I think it's fair to call Brenda Clough on her post.
Your first sentence states Brenda Clough's post is within the remit; then you immediately go on to say 'it's not for us to judge'. Which is precisely what BC's post is all about. Judging why a 'weird' single person would 'suddenly' want to acquire a family, just at the time when they realize they don't have anybody to run their errands for them.
As for 'putting it bluntly'. Of course, if BC had put her point in terms of how understandable it is for people who are single to regret some of the potential negatives of that circumstance, as they get older, and want to change that, who could gainsay that? But she didn't. She explicitly tells us about a person - too weird for marriage, apparently, whatever that means - who wants a family to lift and lay them. Presented in the slightly sarcastic and judgemental way it is, clearly, the lesson of the post is 'how selfish'. Of course, BC knowing this person may be totally right about this situation. May be.
But I'm with Ruth in wondering why such a post applies in any way to a thread where participants here are sharing experiences on singleness?
I'm sure it wouldn't be acceptable posting in this quasi-sarcastic judgemental way on a thread where married/partnered people are sharing challenges and difficulties, as if somehow the participants are meant to learn a lesson about the selfishness of being married, for example.
The only way BC's post could've been in context and within the remit - in my opinion - would've been if she was recounting her own personal experience either as the 'too weird for marriage' person, or the victim of that person.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
Hosting
I think I shall call enough on this tangent and suggest that if anyone wants to continue it to do so by calling Brenda Clough to Hell and sort it out there - remember that this is All Saints!
Thank you.
WW - AS Host
/Hosting
Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on
:
I apologize for upsetting everybody and won't do it again.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
I was accompanied during my weeding today by one of the visiting cats from next door. There are two visiting cats (Romeo and Twinkle) that like to follow at heel a la Nigel the dog from Gardener's World. They're partial to a bit of companionship.
I decided to stay outside and sit on my doorstep with a book in one hand and a cat in the other. A very calming occupation.
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
Very many apologies. This nonsense should have been posted on another thread.
I was wondering if you were suggesting that cuddling the cat was a good way to strike up companionship with the neighbor!
Personally, I have found that the fact that cats tend to adore me does open doors. I am, for example, the primary cat-sitter for my beloved Penelope. Her prior cat and I were best buddies. The new kittens are still thinking about it, but they get friendlier each visit. And Penelope's delight when I take care of them brightens my heart.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
[Blah, blah, blah, cat stuff...]
I decided to stay outside and sit on my doorstep with a book in one hand and a cat in the other. A very calming occupation.
quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
Very many apologies. This nonsense should have been posted on another thread.
I was wondering if you were suggesting that cuddling the cat was a good way to strike up companionship with the neighbor!
That would be a good plan in a different situation. Sadly in this case the cats are infinitely preferable companions to the neighbour.
[ 10. June 2016, 13:32: Message edited by: ArachnidinElmet ]
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
Walking a dog, however, is supposed to be a good way to meet someone.
Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on
:
Unfortunately, the flip side of cats loving me is that dogs, in general, tend to see me as a between-meal snack.
Although, having a dog's fangs attached to my leg probably would result in me meeting all sorts of people...
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Although, having a dog's fangs attached to my leg probably would result in me meeting all sorts of people...
Nurses, I should imagine.
Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on
:
Gender equality - some would be male!
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Walking a dog, however, is supposed to be a good way to meet someone.
You're probably more likely to meet other dog-owners, especially when one dog gets up front and personal with another. Or tangles their lead around someone's legs.
Having said that, walking the dog certainly worked for someone I knew who was the carer for her elderly father. The daily walk in the park was about the only break she got, but that way she met another dog-owner who was a carer for his aged uncle. She married him (the dog-owner, not the aged uncle).
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
:
A friend of ours met the lady he subsequently married while shopping in the middle of the night in the local 24-hour Sainsbury's.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
Walking a dog, however, is supposed to be a good way to meet someone.
You're probably more likely to meet other dog-owners, especially when one dog gets up front and personal with another. Or tangles their lead around someone's legs.
In one particularly memorable incident, I was out for a walk in a busy local park with my then-girlfriend and her roommate's very cute and energetic puppy. Leash was in one hand, TGF was holding my other one, when we're approached by a pair of young women, who proceeded to Very Obviously start flirting with the Very Obviously Not Available dude holding the leash. By the time the eyelash batting and posing ended, I had about wrapped myself around the TGF (I swear, if I'd tried to make it any more obvious that THIS IS MY GIRLFRIEND WHOM I LIKE VERY, VERY, MUCH, I would have been arrested and placed on at least a few unsavory registries), much to her amusement.
I've thought about borrowing a husky from the local shelter and taking walks a few times. Not that this would be a very good pickup strategy, mind, given that I become just a bit stupid around huskies (analogous to this), but it's a thought.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
:
**bump**
We're due for a Hostly Hoover, so I'm moving this thread out of the way of it.
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
**bump**
I thought the bump was the "cabbage patch" thread. Seems a bit premature for here.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
:
**groan**
Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
Posted by Evelien (# 18655) on
:
Just take a look @[deleted] you should see everything here.
[deleted spam link ... we don't want to see everything, thank you very much]
[ 29. August 2016, 10:55: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
suggest that looks like spam without bothering to click on it.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
:
Bye, bye spammer.
Alan
Ship of Fools Admin
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
:
**bump**
Just avoiding the Hostly Hoover.
Posted by Clint Boggis (# 633) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
**bump**
Just avoiding the Hostly Hoover.
No!! Don't clear it out!!
Where do single Christians go to meet someone?
For years I went to a thriving church which kept banging on about families but mostly, opportunities to escape singledom were pretty scarce. The only period when this wasn't the case was a couple of years when I had a serious girlfriend, though I still notice other possibilities.
Since then I've joined social groups for Christian singles but everyone is cautious and I haven't been in one of those for a few years.
Now what? I'm not too sad. I think not being near a (UK) city and not settled in a church (at least a decade now) means even meagre opportunities there are beyond reach.
Should I try hanging around in bars?
(PS What happened to Tiglet's Dating Agency?)
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
(PS What happened to Tiglet's Dating Agency?)
AFAIK the members got married and are raising families. It seemed to have worked for a lot of them.
You could start your own. Boggis's Dating Agency?
Posted by Clint Boggis (# 633) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
(PS What happened to Tiglet's Dating Agency?)
AFAIK the members got married and are raising families. It seemed to have worked for a lot of them.
You could start your own. Boggis's Dating Agency?
Yes, though when I read your reply I was thinking of Tiglet's actual, real-life TDA dinner party in Herts, which around eight of us attended. Tiglet's married and a long way from here now; Soggy Amphibian I think is fixed up, as are Quizmaster, Atlanta, Welsh Dragon and the lady whose screen name escapes me. We had a very good evening and slept over.
Was TDA in Heaven or All Saints? I remember someone in that thread offered his 'profile' but turned out to be a married cleric, thinking it was all 'just for a laugh' rather than real people seeking a possible alternative to a solitary life. As a result, I and others had a rather queasy feeling that we were in a goldfish bowl, mere salacious entertainment for onlookers.
It could work again, I suppose: BDA / "Seeking Mrs Boggis"?
I also remember in those long-lost days whenever Ship discussion turned to singleness, someone would pipe up and claim that were were 'too choosy' and say they dated several girls in the church before marrying their wife, as though it was normal for everyone at the appropriate time of their life to attend a church with a choice of several potential partners! Surely most of us have (almost) no choice and so end up single or looking elsewhere.
I also remember Ken (RiP) agreeing that opportunities to meet suitable potential Christian partners are very limited and he was in London.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
Projecting madly, I suspect that ken would have loved to have dated someone, but was aware of his past dating history, present situation and all the reasons why other relationships failed. That doesn't necessarily make people leap towards new relationships.
(Several single women of varying ages attend the London meets. I'm one of them.)
Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on
:
And I'm another... though "varying ages" don't tend to vary very young.
I fell overboard some months ago and have just clambered back onto the Ship. Still by far the best procrastination tool I have ever found.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
Was TDA in Heaven or All Saints?
That, I don't remember. If you are serious about such a thread I suggest checking with a host first.
quote:
I also remember Ken (RiP) agreeing that opportunities to meet suitable potential Christian partners are very limited and he was in London.
I can only say that if you go for specifically Christian groups the eligible pool certainly seems to be smaller.
Incidentally, re online dating agencies, do read the small print. Some of the ones online are subsets of larger organizations, and you may find that your profile has been fed through to other sites. Then again you might not, but no harm in checking.
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
When the parting words on a first date are "It was nice to meet you" one can be fairly confident there won't be a second.
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
I had a first coffee date on Monday with a rather stunning girl from a large dating site. Both of us are rather busy over the next two weeks, so have arranged to try and go out for a proper meal on the 14th. Have added each other on WhatsApp and chatting in a low-key way... trying to strike the balance between not appearing too keen and yet wanting to keep the conversation alive.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
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Good luck, Marsman!
Posted by Yam-pk (# 12791) on
:
Good luck MarsmanTJ!
Was stressing out over Christmas - girl from my church popped up on the same dating website as I'm currently on. I was on the verge of phoning her on a flimsy pretext to ask her out but she said she had a migraine so I didn't...
Now wrestling with a) not wanting to ruin the friendship with hideous amounts of awkwardness if she says no , b) have actually had a crush on her for some time and agonising whether to ask her out for coffee, and c) not wanting to potentially get into a relationship because we both might be moving cities at some point in the next 2 years...oh lorks!!
**NB My sister has told me to stop acting like a teeenage girl but I reckon that would be an insult to teenage members of the opposite gender!**
[ 05. January 2017, 13:18: Message edited by: Yam-pk ]
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
Years ago I was on a management training course and we all had to come up with a relevant snappy one-liner and I came up with:
The Only Way To Do It - Is To Do It
Sometimes I have found this applicable in personal relationships and life in general, too.
[Apologies to a certain sportswear company]
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
:
Yam-pk - if you're friends already, I'd have thought that asking her to join you for a cup of coffee would be a perfectly natural thing to do.
Do you only see each other at actual church services, or are you both in the choir/youth group/bell-ringers/whatever? If the latter, would it work to ask her to join you for coffee or a drink after choir practice*/ringing practice*/whatever?
* If either of these, in my experience they go for a drink after rehearsals anyway.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
Yam-pk: I married my best mate so that should encourage you that these things absolutely can work out.
The only word of warning I would give is this: don’t be ambiguous. If you’re asking her out on a date, make it clear that’s what you’re doing. She may say no, which would suck and cause some embarrassment for a while. But on the whole I think a friendship can recover from that, because at least you’ve been fair and honest. The fuzzy in-between zone where you hang out without the intentions being clear (are we hanging out as friends or is this something else) makes things much more awkward if it doesn’t work out.
OTOH, it may work out for you *crosses fingers*
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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FWIW (and I'm decades away from the dating scene) lunch dates involve less commitment than evening ones.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
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Hey Yam-pk
If I was joining a new dating site, and someone from my own local church turned out to be on it already, the awkwardness of dealing with any unwanted approach from that person might make me find another site pretty quick. If, OTOH, on reflection I thought an approach from that person might be fun or interesting...I might leave my profile up! (And maybe I might have even put a profile up on that particular website knowing they were already there...who knows ).
Good luck.
Posted by Yam-pk (# 12791) on
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Please accept my apologies for not thanking you all very much for you advice and support. Hoping to screw up my courage at the end of the month when we're having a social @ church will kerp you posted
Posted by MarsmanTJ (# 8689) on
:
Three brilliant dates and lots of texting in between... and after date three, one text. Worried I've come on too strong, or not strong enough. Hate this stage of dating where it's not 'defined' as a relationship, but also unsure of where you stand. Hope this is going somewhere, I REALLY like this girl.
Posted by Lothlorien (# 4927) on
:
Bump.
Posted by Sola gratia (# 14065) on
:
*bump again*
This might be as good a place as any to ask...
Having recently made my way finally up the candle/to a decidedly Greenbelt-y kind of faith, and finally feeling ready to look for a Significant Other, I am wondering how one goes about finding a nice, progressive lad who's into that, or at least me?
Am fortunately in London so in theory my pool is larger, but go to a (very lovely) small local church where all other similarly aged folk are very much female, married, gay or a combination of the three, and thus not for me.
Yes, I have tried a bit online, on and off.
The obvious Christian site features either people not on my wavelength at all (massively evangelical, massively Tory, or both, not to put too fine a point on it - which are Not For Me) or a limited number that are who are very distant geographically. Secular sites are often full of blokes who are ambiguous as to intentions, and I'm not in it for a quick shag (or one anytime soon tbh), so I'm unsure how to market myself.
Obviously face to face meeting is preferable but unsure where to go really.
I like to think I am friendly, like meeting new people etc. but don't know how socialising is done in Anglo-Catholic/Progressive etc. circles as I come from more an Evo/Baptist background.
Make eyes at someone at evensong?!
Any tips?
Bridget Jones of South London
Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on
:
Hi Sola gratia
My local(ish) retreat centre occasionally runs singles events, might it be worth seeing if there is anything like this in your neck of the woods?
N.B. I have just bitten the bullet and contacted them about attending the next one
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sola gratia:
Obviously face to face meeting is preferable but unsure where to go really.
I like to think I am friendly, like meeting new people etc. but don't know how socialising is done in Anglo-Catholic/Progressive etc. circles as I come from more an Evo/Baptist background.
Make eyes at someone at evensong?!
You jest, but trying out Evensong at a different/larger A-C place that might have a young man or two might be a way of meeting new people, even if none of them turn out to be romantic interests.
At my last London church (fairly progressive A-C), the collection of young(er) folks used to get together for a meal or something fairly regularly, and a couple of couples formed from within that social group.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
Young men in anglo-catholic congregations tend not to be 'the marrying kind.'
Posted by ThunderBunk (# 15579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Young men in anglo-catholic congregations tend not to be 'the marrying kind.'
Hmmm. Not by any means always the case. Speaking as one who would far rather they weren't.
Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sola gratia:
... Make eyes at someone at evensong?!
Have you thought of joining the choir? It worked for me ...
Posted by Sola gratia (# 14065) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Young men in anglo-catholic congregations tend not to be 'the marrying kind.'
Oh, I am aware. Going to an Inclusive Church(TM) does have that effect (happily - the more the merrier in my book ).
Perhaps I was too flippant re:Evensnog (deliberate Spoonerism). Am definitely considering branching out and making some ecumenical visits to other congregations of an evening to heighten the odds. Nothing ventured, eh...
Retreat Day might be an idea, thanks Kitten. Went on a lovely one recently so am all for the concept regardless.
In the meantime I have half-heartedly resurrected my account for Teh Online Datingz and have amazingly ended up in a lovely chat with a nice man... based in Leicestershire. Oh well.
Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on
:
If you manage to crack the formula, Sola gratia, feel free to pass it on
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sola gratia:
Perhaps I was too flippant re:Evensnog (deliberate Spoonerism). A
But if Evensnog is followed by Benders...
Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on
:
Well, I stuck my neck out again. Got it duly chopped with the knife of [nice bloke, but nothing more than that]. Again.
Now have to spend the rest of the month paying off the credit card bill. It's a game for rich young men, not me. Time to call it a day and stare at the 2nd half of my 30s with an added load of cynicism and ennui.
Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on
:
Oh mate.
(And why can’t I come up with anything else to say that’s not a cheesy platitude?)
Have a hug if you want one.
Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sipech:
Well, I stuck my neck out again. Got it duly chopped . . . . Now have to spend the rest of the month paying off the credit card bill. It's a game for rich young men, not me.
I've been known to spend money on young men who I thought would appreciate the gesture. My experience is that they either (a) keep looking for more or (b) forget all about you after their monetary needs have been satisfied.
That said, I've often fantasized about how I would help out certain young men big-time if I ever won the lottery. Probably why God hasn't yet revealed the winning numbers to me (although I keep hoping he will).
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
I have yet to pluck up the courage to tell an old friend (widowed some 6 years ago) that I'd like to be rather more than an old friend.
Holding me back is that our children don't get along very well. That and the fear that if I tell OF I'd like it to be more than friendship I'll end up with nothing.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
Sounds too important to handle by anything other than a carefully-worded letter to me, L'O. Along the lines of 'In a rather unformed way these kinds of thoughts have sometimes occurred to me, and before I dismiss them out of hand and preserve our valuable friendship, I thought I might enquire as to whether you found anything in them worth rescuing.' Or something...
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
We get together once a year for what we call an air-clearing session so I may bring it up then. In the meantime I'm going to sound out my children about why they don't particularly get alone with hers: maybe its because they're 2 sets of identical twins born within days of each other???
The other thing is to suss out whether the old friend's occasional "walker" (I think thats the term for a male companion who provides a single lady with a partner when one is required) is anything more than that - if he is then I'm in deep trouble because he's under 40, looks like a Greek God and, from the two times I've met him, thinks she's the bees-knees.
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on
:
Not that I have a track record to boast about - at all - but, Mark, I'm not keen on the letter idea. Perhaps an "air clearing" session followed up with a "how about lunch next week", and the week after, and the week after....
As for the respective children not getting on, well, tough for them. They're adults, and like proper adults can sod off. LO, it's your happiness, not theirs, that is paramount. When my mother and stepfather got married, there was no guarantee that the kids (all adults) would get on well. We didn't, especially, but we left the older folk to get on with their lives together, for 22 years.
[ 15. October 2017, 22:45: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]
Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on
:
Whereas I thought Mark's letter idea was spot on.
I am the sort of person who would much rather express myself in writing when it comes to saying hard and important things, and I thought the form of words Mark suggested was nothing less than inspired for this situation.
There are people like me (and I guess Mark as well) who struggle to say what they mean to say when doing so face to face, and worry unduly that they will get it wrong, so using a letter can give one the opportunity to carefully chose words that best convey the message, and maybe also to address concerns that may arise in the reader.
I have used this technique regularly throughout my life. It doesn't mean that there are never times when a face to face confrontation is necessary, but I do find it best to keep these to a minimum.
Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on
:
A question of personal style, I suppose.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
How dare you. I categorically refute your implication that I possess any personal style whatsoever.
Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on
:
In this report from a cricket match is what may be a welcome reminder to some shipmates that romance can flourish in many different circumstances.
[ 27. November 2017, 01:23: Message edited by: Tukai ]
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