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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is there such a thing as an anniversary when you aren't married?
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Does not the fact that they are celebrating an anniversary show a real depth of commitment, the same depth that others show by marriage, and the same public showing of it?
Kids going steady in high schools have anniversaries (and monthiversaries and dear god). Not enough depth to wet your ankles. So, no.
Not quite sure what you're saying, MT, and it sounds a bit dismissive. Some of us weren't able to get married until recently, but we still celebrated anniversaries with depth and commitment (24 years and counting in my case).
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Does not the fact that they are celebrating an anniversary show a real depth of commitment, the same depth that others show by marriage, and the same public showing of it?
Kids going steady in high schools have anniversaries (and monthiversaries and dear god). Not enough depth to wet your ankles. So, no.
Not quite sure what you're saying, MT, and it sounds a bit dismissive. Some of us weren't able to get married until recently, but we still celebrated anniversaries with depth and commitment (24 years and counting in my case).
You have confused anniversaries PROVING commitment, and anniversaries EXPRESSING commitment. Gee D was saying that anniversaries were proof of depth. I showed a counterexample. Nothing I said implied that anniversaries without marriage could not possibly have depth of commitment. Methinks you complaineth too much here.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I agree with Arabella, and feel that MT's reply was a bit flippant. NP's son and partner have remembered a suitable date and confirm that as an important part of their relationship by calling it their anniversary. By doing so, they are saying that it's important to them in the same way as a wedding anniversary is for us. And talking of it makes it public, a public demonstration of the length of their relationship, their commitment to it and each other.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Sorry, I mistook this for Purgatory, where rationality is expected. I'll leave now.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And congratulations to you and your partner, Arabella. We notched up 40 years a few weeks ago. Luckily we have never had to hide ours as you must have been forced to at times. It's great that our joy in, and celebration of, these anniversaries shows clearly to all just how committed we are. It's not a "40 years, so what" affair.
Just wondering though if we had an easier time of it because ours was a marriage in a sense popularly recognised all that time, whereas you had to fight stigma and opposition for a long initial period. I think we did but how do you feel about it?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
It is stuff like this: Family history, continuity and the sins the father and mother experienced. Refugee. Being a small surviving leaf on an outward branch where we are the only leaf, all others plucked off in wartime. Which I didn't know how strongly I felt until I realized completely how unquestioned my unconscious/semiconscious assumptions were, that I did too good a job of not passing along. That letting go causes grief.
Maybe you'd have to be me, with my family and personal history to comprehend(?)
"Teach your children well, their father's hell will slowly go by." (CSNY, 1970) link - youtube
I don't understand your experiences, but I don't need to.
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The public part is just occurring it seems. It seems I'm supposed to agree with the proposition: living together is identical to marriage. Which doesn't match with the nonpublic nature until the 10 year announcement to us.
Weirdly (given situation) discussed with some old friends at a Sunday afternoon funeral (a first, never been to a Sunday funeral). Insights suggested about some eternal truths. Which might comfort in eternity, seems to be more intellectual than spiritual and emotional.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The public part is just occurring it seems. It seems I'm supposed to agree with the proposition: living together is identical to marriage.
I don't think agreeing with that proposition is necessary, if it helps. Your eldest and partner have a relationship, and it has lasted 10 years so far. That's a real thing, and you can celebrate it with them, and you don't need to think that setting up home together is the same as marriage in order to do so. Comparing their relationship to relationships other people have, or relationships they might have had, isn't really relevant - they have a relationship, you are happy that they have a relationship (for all you wish they'd marry), and they want, it seems, to celebrate a personal milestone with you. And you can celebrate with them without implying anything other than that you're happy for them.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Gee D, we've been profoundly lucky that apart from in the church (and my dad), we've been surrounded by an amazing local community. Our civil union guest list was mostly heterosexual and included colleagues, choir friends, our doctor, our pharmacists, and our students. My partner's work HR people found out that we got married and let the whole organisation know in the intranet personal section last week. Rosie was overwhelmed by all the warmth that ensued (she is well loved by many of her workmates anyway).
I know lots of other lesbian and gay people haven't been so fortunate but even in our new (more rural) town, we're enjoying making friends with everyone.
Maybe we're just super friendly or something! I do think being positive and expecting the best of people helps.
I was thinking more about the outlaw thing - my father in law, once he got his homophobia out of the way, was able to exercise his sense of humour about things with us. He could also have good talks with my mum. They were the witnesses at our civil union. It took about 2 years for him to come round and we kept on visiting them and involving them in our activities during that time, which wasn't always easy or pleasant. But then he went into hospital and we visited every day, and his challenges dropped away. The pain was worth the gain.
[ 26. September 2017, 06:38: Message edited by: Arabella Purity Winterbottom ]
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
That is all very good news indeed, and must have helped with the not-so-good events.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The public part is just occurring it seems. It seems I'm supposed to agree with the proposition: living together is identical to marriage.
I don't think agreeing with that proposition is necessary, if it helps. Your eldest and partner have a relationship, and it has lasted 10 years so far. That's a real thing, and you can celebrate it with them, and you don't need to think that setting up home together is the same as marriage in order to do so. Comparing their relationship to relationships other people have, or relationships they might have had, isn't really relevant - they have a relationship, you are happy that they have a relationship (for all you wish they'd marry), and they want, it seems, to celebrate a personal milestone with you. And you can celebrate with them without implying anything other than that you're happy for them.
Exactly
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
My unmarried son still has our surname.
My married son took his wife's name so no longer does.
We have no problem with this - I wish it happened more often, women will seem less of a 'possession' if their husbands take their name.
Their reason was not so complicated- it was simple, she has only sisters so their family name would have died out.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
...I have been very quiet for the past few years, being polite, avoiding argument which hurts us both.
... I feel so many of my feelings are just wrong, but I feel them in true. What can you do?
So, you have suppressed your feelings and beliefs in order not to offend your adult child. But, it seems you are hurting. You are the parent, and always will be. Your role of parent may change over time, but your feelings are no less significant to the parent/child relationship than his (hers?).
Perhaps expressing your sadness (or whatever exactly your feelings are) will help the two of you to develop a new relationship, one that does not hurt either of you. I'm surprised that no one has yet suggested that you should talk about your feelings instead of letting them burn inside you for 10 more years.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Perhaps, before you talk to your adult child, you should talk to a family therapist. He/she can help you sort out your feelings, and help you figure out how, or if, to talk to the adult child and the best way to go about it. A dispassionate observer can be helpful, when emotions are fuming up in your heart.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
Perhaps expressing your sadness (or whatever exactly your feelings are) will help the two of you to develop a new relationship, one that does not hurt either of you. I'm surprised that no one has yet suggested that you should talk about your feelings instead of letting them burn inside you for 10 more years.
I'm not sure that np has the right to impose his personal hangups on his child. What is talking about it going to achieve? np's kid is not going to turn around and say "well, if it means that much to you, we'll get married, Dad," and nor should they. I think we'd be a bit worried about a couple who were marrying because their family expected it.
It seems that all your suggested conversation will do is land a heap of guilt on np's kid for not meeting parental hopes/dreams, and that, IMO, is a pretty shitty thing to do to your child.
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Not sure sharing my feelings at this point is at all wise. That's a road taken before which then I learned that it was my issue, felt that I was a Bad Man, and that I mustn't burden them. No be wanting to create that hurt again.
Reading the discussion I alternate between feeling I am a rigid bastard traditionalist (which annoys me greatly, a picture of self I dislike), that I am disturbed to even have it as an issue (it is my sin, should put aside my childish ways), and that I am justified in my hurt, but it's mine to bear. (My wife shares a measure of this, but it is more mine than her's.)
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Not sure sharing my feelings at this point is at all wise. That's a road taken before which then I learned that it was my issue, felt that I was a Bad Man, and that I mustn't burden them. No be wanting to create that hurt again.
Reading the discussion I alternate between feeling I am a rigid bastard traditionalist (which annoys me greatly, a picture of self I dislike), that I am disturbed to even have it as an issue (it is my sin, should put aside my childish ways), and that I am justified in my hurt, but it's mine to bear. (My wife shares a measure of this, but it is more mine than her's.)
I don't think you are justified in your hurt, it really isn't your relationship and it's entirely up to them how they relate, at least they're not 'swingers' lol.
But you are no bastard or bad man, your feelings are genuine whatever caused them. The fact that you are not a bastard is shown by how much you have worked at it not affecting them. But it is an issue for you, and you need to deal with it, for your own peace of mind imo.
Talking here, no doubt, helps a lot.
When I had a problem, talking here sorted me out completely - I've been able to 'let it go' like I never expected - all because I was brought to task and told, in no uncertain terms, that I had no control whatever and should not let it eat me up. It was their issue, not mine.
But, if here is not enough, about talking to a trusted friend?
[ 26. September 2017, 16:20: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Not sure sharing my feelings at this point is at all wise. That's a road taken before which then I learned that it was my issue, felt that I was a Bad Man, and that I mustn't burden them. No be wanting to create that hurt again.
Reading the discussion I alternate between feeling I am a rigid bastard traditionalist (which annoys me greatly, a picture of self I dislike), that I am disturbed to even have it as an issue (it is my sin, should put aside my childish ways), and that I am justified in my hurt, but it's mine to bear. (My wife shares a measure of this, but it is more mine than her's.)
I don't think you are justified in your hurt, it really isn't your relationship and it's entirely up to them how they relate, at least they're not 'swingers' lol.
But you are no bastard or bad man, your feelings are genuine whatever caused them. The fact that you are not a bastard is shown by how much you have worked at it not affecting them. But it is an issue for you, and you need to deal with it, for your own peace of mind imo.
Talking here, no doubt, helps a lot.
That is completely why I am doing it.
quote:
But, if here is not enough, about talking to a trusted friend?
It's been a lengthy time it has. I have discussed and digested with friends, clergy who I trust, and some professionals. It re-emerged with the 10 yr anniversary thing.
Have had some times of elation (is that the right word, a light directed where I had yet to look) when reading some of the responses to this thread.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
It looks a lot like grief to me. Coping with grief can take a long time, a lot of involvement, and can truly suck ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
ISTM that you are grieving that something important is lost between you and your son. He doesn't share a value that you have, that you may not have even known was of so much importance to you.
Refocusing on other aspects of your relationship with your son might be a way to go.
You could consider this in terms of his own needs, in a descending hierarchy: "Is he breathing? Safe? Healthy? Happy? Self-supporting? Contributing to the world?" etc. right on down to this particular branch of thought: "Is he getting married? Is it in my religious tradition of choice? Will the wedding be in my preferred style?" Focusing on the answers to the higher-up questions may be better than focusing on this one.
You could refocus on what aspects of marriage you feel are necessary for a healthy relationship, and whether your son's relationship reflects those values. Love, respect, honesty, fidelity, mutual support, humour, courage, and endurance (or whatever other semi-Pauline list might be useful). Instead of grieving what he does not have from your POV, perhaps shift your focus to being glad of what he does.
*I readily admit that this advice may be worth what you're paying for it.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Grief is a good call Leaf. Hadn't considered it this way. I talk to my 90 year old father about the relationship. (He's the refugee, first from Germany in 1938, and second from Singapore/Hong Kong in January 1942. He and one cousin born in 1942 is all that is of the formerly very large family) I am partly channeling, I now think, some of his emotions about family continuity and nearly 75 years of his grief too as he organizes his affairs and alludes to his despair. Is it easier to be upset with the young with future before than think of the old and the future grief which is coming - this analysis is from messages between myself and a priest friend which Leaf's post about grief triggered me to cry about and then discuss.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
The public part is just occurring it seems. It seems I'm supposed to agree with the proposition: living together is identical to marriage.
Does Eldest say that s/he thinks his/her living together relationship IS identical to marriage? If they don't think this, it's unlikely they're expecting you to. Or is s/he assuming, or hoping, that you'll simply give the same emotional validation and support to his/her relationship as you would to a marriage? Maybe that's more likely.
Though using the word 'simply' is, of course, underestimating how painful this is for you.
You can't help how you feel, only how you respond to the feelings. And it sounds like you're trying to see the good in what is hopefully a happy relationship for your Eldest. I guess if you keep prioritizing that, you'll be well guided.
As it happens, my mum would be ecstatic if I were in any kind of a committed, long-term relationship with someone who loved me. For her, my being single is a source of worry and pain because, as she sees it, there's no-one to look after me and I'm alone and possibly lonely. I deduce this from a single comment she once made a few years ago; and not made in the least way to make me feel uncomfortable. All my adult life she's always scrupulously avoided the 'when are you getting married/giving me grandkids' spiel. It's been a great blessing to me that, in the area of relationships, or rather the lack of them, she's never made me feel as if I've failed, or I'm missing out, or I've deprived her of something she was hoping for, even for my sake. I love and respect her for it more and more as the years pass.
She knows that her relief at my couple-hood would be based on what she would hope to be a happier and more companionable life for me; so she leaves it to me to be the final judge of my own chances of happiness. I almost wish I could just meet and settle with anyone, anyhow, just to make her happy. But she'd hate for me to live my life just to keep her happy. Especially since her happiness in this area would depend on mine!
Complicated or what?!
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
They are to be congratulated for their tenth year! On a rough count, half of my friends' marriages have not made it that far.
I share your grumpitude over the word partner, but no longer make jokes about bridge games and law firms, as the usage has become nigh-universal here. Almost all of my married friends co-habited for years before their wedding, and it has become too common for comment.
But you have an opportunity to give thanks and congratulate them for ten years of happiness. As a very Orthodox Jewish friend said of his grand-daughter's (very unconventional) situation, "either way it's a simcha." (gladness or joy)
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
From my point of view . . . .
We all have hopes and dreams for our loved ones, and often we want them to express our hopes and dreams in a way that is in sync with our cultural outlook. I think this is normal.
But I also think it is normal to have to work out how to love and support our loved ones when their behavior is not in keeping with our version of a cultural norm.
My own father went to his grave expressing disappointment about a choice I made, but he also managed to acknowledge my satisfaction in that choice. I suspect it was hard for him. And, as much as I had hoped he would see things my way, I know he had his own built-in definition of what was proper.
Perhaps it might be helpful to concentrate on the two actual people involved. Do they love each other and treat each other with respect? Are they pleasant to be around? Are they honorable individuals? Do they treat the rest of the family well? Have they found a way to join in family life and celebrations with the extended family?
I think the situation would be different if one person were breaking the law or being dishonest or treating the other person (and his/her family) with disrespect.
But if the two people have found happiness in a way that is slightly different than what was expected . . . .isn't that their right as adults? Don't we expect our children to grow and find their own way while developing their own take on the world?
It's also their right to use the words "anniversary" and "partner." Obviously, those words have a different meaning for different people.
Perhaps, changing the focus to the individuals and not to the words might help to make the situation more tolerable.
I don't think this is easy to figure out at a heart level, but it can happen.
Hoping you feel better about it all, NP.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Thanks for the comments. We cannot it seems do happy just now. Trying. Spent the Thanksgiving long weekend (Canadian one was Oct 9) with them at our cabin. We did fine with them. I have to mind myself quite closely and not engage in some aspects of conversation, wee bit less relaxing than would like. When we got home on Monday, my wife and I looked at each other and we're not sure who became teary first. It is finalitude for both of us it seems. Elements of joy and of pain. We also discussed the deaths of our parents (one of 4 is alive), friends whose funerals we've attended in 2017, wonder as time progresses if we'll ever have grandchildren - something which looks dimmer all the time. And then we booked a winter holiday. It's not profound, but we came up with "what can you do?"
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
We have the families we have, not the families we want.
I would have liked to have a father who ever - even once - showed me affection, but I didn't. I would have like to have a mother who'd ever read a book or could discuss ideas, but I didn't.
And I'm sure they would have liked to have a daughter more dutiful, less contrary, better tempered, who got married and had children - but they didn't.
For some years I remembered birthdays, sent cards, bought thoughtful presents at Christmas - because that is what I had seen proper families do. But it never caught on.
We are as we are. As they say at Home, sure it could all be worse.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
And in your case NP, be glad that you son and his partner are happy together and have formed what appears to be a solid long term relationship. And accept that it is their life not yours that they are living.
BTW, have you ever met her parents?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Dennis the Menace
Shipmate
# 11833
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Posted
We have been together for 37 years and as a same sex couple we acknowledge our 'anniversary' but don't celebrate! This year we forgot and was reminded of it when K sister sent a text for a happy anniversary!
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"Till we cast our crowns before Him; Lost in wonder, love, and praise."
Posts: 853 | From: Newcastle NSW Australia | Registered: Sep 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
What will you do when we at long last get around to marriage equality - have your legal marriage on the anniversary day?
[ 18. October 2017, 02:14: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
What will you do when we at long last get around to marriage equality - have your legal marriage on the anniversary day?
If we are to emulate Benedict XVI's provision for Anglican priests crossing the Tiber and getting (re)ordained, where they keep the anniversary of their Anglican priesting as their anniversary, then the legal tidy-up day is not kept as the anniversary; rather, the initial anniversary is, as that's where the commitment first happened.
Apologies for the convoluted sentence.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dennis the Menace
Shipmate
# 11833
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
What will you do when we at long last get around to marriage equality - have your legal marriage on the anniversary day?
Mmm.. good question.. Celebrate both is my immediate thought
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"Till we cast our crowns before Him; Lost in wonder, love, and praise."
Posts: 853 | From: Newcastle NSW Australia | Registered: Sep 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We finally got around to a 'proper' marriage some years after the children were born. Before that we had an anniversary of when we'd decided that we were a couple and foresaw the relationship going the distance.
When we married we chose a date in the summer partly because we envisaged a silver wedding party - or at least a 10 year one - in the garden; sadly we didn't get to that stage.
Anyway, I used to remember both, the other-half forgot both.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
no prophet's flag is set so...: I guess you can keep making yourself miserable if you want. But I'm starting to wonder why you keep picking at this.
Is it because you have some other underlying tension in your relationship with your son which you, at some level, hope could be bridged if he married?
Is it because you are feeling some loss of control in other areas of your own life, and somehow your son's marriage would bring you some feelings of consolation and reassurance?
Have you explored more about what this has to do with your slightly complicated relationship with your own father?
I dunno, man. I think you were further ahead when you and your partner said to each other, "Eh, what are you going to do?" Grieve and let it go. Celebrate who they are, not who you wish they would be.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Dennis the Menace: quote:
Mmm.. good question.. Celebrate both is my immediate thought
Seems reasonable to me. We celebrate both our wedding anniversary and our engagement anniversary. Other Half has also floated the idea of celebrating the anniversary of the date we first met. Any excuse for a celebration, is our view. The three dates are conveniently spaced (February, May, November) but not from design; that's just how it worked out.
We don't expect anyone else to join in with our celebrations (unless invited, as when we had a party for our 25th wedding anniversary) but we don't make a secret of them either...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
no prophet's flag is set so...: I guess you can keep making yourself miserable if you want. But I'm starting to wonder why you keep picking at this.
Is it because you have some other underlying tension in your relationship with your son which you, at some level, hope could be bridged if he married?
Is it because you are feeling some loss of control in other areas of your own life, and somehow your son's marriage would bring you some feelings of consolation and reassurance?
Have you explored more about what this has to do with your slightly complicated relationship with your own father?
I dunno, man. I think you were further ahead when you and your partner said to each other, "Eh, what are you going to do?" Grieve and let it go. Celebrate who they are, not who you wish they would be.
It isn't misery, not nearly that. Perhaps you can imagine that this is something that gets revisited, with a sense of what might be or might have been? It's what some older adults do. And that at times it ebbs to everything is just fine, and then again to it isn't. It wasn't just fine when I posted the thread. And wasn't when we returned from Thanksgiving.
I did explain above that I understand mine and my family history well and its influence: that my father's family was killed except for one other, a cousin, and that this greatly affected him and in turn me. My children are not affected by this history, and not I see that shielding this has effects, but it was still right to do it. We don't have the sins experienced by the father passed unto the 5th or whatever generation. It dies here. But may I feel about it, or must I deceive myself?
It came up also when we lost my wife's parents and my mother in close time, also my best friend; with the loss of a prior best friend 30 years ago.. I am also connected to the loss of 13 people on a wilderness trip a decade before then. I understand the poignancy of life, death, and the patterns beyond myself too well for my own wellbeing, or think that I do. It was reinforced yet again when another of our children, as an adult, at work, was attacked, brutally assaulted (yes, that) and left for dead one beautiful morning. So the family history trauma, and of loss, my life trauma, our life trauma: it's all there in front of us. But no, we don't need more professional help; this is merely developmental. . I am working on two major projects which aim at playing things forward. And no, it isn't about control of life, we are both successful, money isn't an issue. Am I tedious here?
Sure I will come again to accept and put it away, and then it will return: the raising of this as an anniversary pushed my buttons. Is that so bizarre? The wound will heal again, but I'll not deny that it is a wound and something I feel. And that some aspects of how things are aren't to my preference. God giveth and taketh and we don't know what or how. Perhaps it takes understanding the integrative principle of violence and trauma as lived, I don't know. I'm being tedious I think.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Not tedious, just a little hard to understand ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
What do you think marriage would give your son and his family that they don’t already have?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Based on feelings.
It isn't what marriage gives to the couple. It is what it gives to others.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I was in a social gathering one time when someone remarked that most of the people in the room were married - just not to the person they were with.
I should say the unions referred were no longer legally extant afaik, but it was interesting that so many of us had done the expected, public, familial thing and it hadn't been the gateway to lifelong happiness as advertised.
I am of the opinion that no one should marry below the age of 50. You can, of course, cohabit, beget offspring etc if you wish, but promises to love and cherish until death do you are a lot more convincing if you've already survived a couple of decades of chucking saucepans.
Never mind throwing the do for the rellies - they're not going to be around when you're sat waiting for the oncology appointments.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
... It isn't what marriage gives to the couple. It is what it gives to others.
I think I'd have to disagree there. First, a disclaimer: I've been happily married to the same bloke for nearly 30 years, which I'm sure delighted all our respective parents.
But in all honesty, it seems to me that the very worst possible reason for getting married would be to please other people.
Marriage is a contract between two people, not something done for the benefit of anyone else.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Based on feelings.
It isn't what marriage gives to the couple. It is what it gives to others.
We've recently notched up our 40th anniversary.
You start with "based on feelings" - whose and what please? And surely marriage is for the couple and not others. In any event, your son and his partner have clearly shown the world that they are committed to each other from their decade-long relationship. If some choose not to accept that demonstration, that is scarcely the fault of those in that relationship.
Otherwise what Piglet says.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Or to put it another way.
It's 6 months since the hitherto happy couple got married. There's an argument in he course of which she says: We only got married to please your father, you didn't care for what I thought, and how happy we'd been until then. How would you feel?
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I've been trying to post on this thread since it started, but truly I'm so bewildered by your attitude, no prophet, that I can't think of what to say.
Basically, why is it any business of yours if your son and his partner are married or not? If they have been together for 10 years, they are apparently a stable, loving couple, surely that should be what concerns you? I don't understand what any of the stuff about your family background has to do with it. If you could explain better, maybe I could understand and have something constructive to say.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Totally agree.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Based on feelings.
It isn't what marriage gives to the couple. It is what it gives to others.
What does it give to others?
I have one son who is married and one who isn’t. I can’t think of one thing that the first couple give to others that the second don’t.
The married son took his wife’s name, which really pleased me as it shows how much he cares about equality.
Of the two the unmarried son is more caring about others imo. He works as a nurse and works very hard at having a small carbon footprint, cycling everywhere - including home from Heidelberg! He lives in one room with his partner (also a nurse)
The married son is an airline pilot, has bought a big house, drives a three litre car and is married to a city financier. I love them both dearly, but I know which ‘gives more to other people’ and it’s not the married one!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
What I am getting out of this, no prophet, is that your family history has been one of loss and displacement.
As a result, you tried very hard to give your children safety and stability. In doing so, you were able to reassure yourself that this is a world in which safety and stability are possible. But your son, thanks to his inherent feelings of stability, feelings which you and your wife have engendered in him, doesn't feel the need to take on your values re marriage. And you are sad about this.
On a more trivial scale, but analogous I think, was my relationship with my mother-in-law when I married. She married quite young, straight from home and I gather found the first year of marriage / setting up home / housekeeping / etc. bewildering. So she decided that when her own child married, she would help out in every way she could; she would provide the help she would have dearly loved to receive herself. But when I married, I had already lived away from home for seven years. I had absolutely no need for any of the help she was offering.
I'm guessing you want your son to have something you feel you missed out on. I assume that when you married your wife your family history meant that the lack of family to invite hurt. You determined that it would be different for your offspring; when they married it would be in the midst of a supportive and strong family. And now you find that your son doesn't value what yourself would have valued deeply.
Am I close?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
<making a strenuous attempt to see no_prophet's point of view>
Is it that marriage (traditionally) formalises the couple's relationship for the rest of society, and places a duty on the married couple's friends and family to respect and support it?
Because in modern British society, the formal recognition of most relationships seems to begin when couples start living together, or buy a house together. Non-religious couples often delay the wedding until after they've had a child together and the bride has got her pre-baby figure back.
Now, *as a Christian*, I think that is putting the cart before the horse. My Other Half and I did things in the traditional order. As a human being who would like to remain on speaking terms with certain members of her family and any friends who follow contemporary practice, I keep this opinion to myself and treat cohabiting couples with the same consideration for their relationship that I would like to receive for my own.
Our atheist friends who have been together for as long as we have and got married about ten years ago for what they described as 'administrative reasons'.
Our lesbian and gay friends, some of whom are married, some of whom are not.
Our friend's daughter who has just had a baby and is in the process of buying a house with her boyfriend.
Yes, it would be nice if they had all got married at the same stage of their relationships as we did. But they didn't.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
NEQ and Jane R have it pretty well.
Nothing to be done of course as I have noted before. Just cycle through the feelings and put away until raised again.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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BabyWombat
Shipmate
# 18552
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Posted
I will speak of my own experience: my partner, now husband, and I met, grew closer, shared love, an apartment and our livelihood. As gay men there could be no “anniversary” but we marked one as the date we’d first met. (Yes, it was love at first sight, as hackneyed as that sounds). We celebrated it, but did not expect others to do so.
When laws changed, we had a bang-up Civil Union ceremony, noting in the bulletin that it was being held on the day we marked as our 27th anniversary. When laws changed again we got officially married (there was no legal mechanism for a simple upgrade..). We kept the same “anniversary” date, even thought the marriage date was off by a week. Recently celebrated that original date as our 44th anniversary.
Some friends mark the date with a card, good wishes, maybe even dinner out. But blood relatives, supportive and present at the Civil Union, don’t send an anniversary greeting, even though I send greetings to them on their wedding anniversaries, which pre-dated ours. It doesn’t bother us.
What is important for us and perhaps for the couple in the OP is simply that they are recognized in some way as an “item.” They have made that commitment to each other, as does any couple marrying, and it is in the affirming of them and their choices that demonstrates the love. If they have announced a date as their “anniversary” join in raising three cheers for them. It may mean learning a new language of relationship, but that may not be so bad.
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
Posts: 102 | From: US | Registered: Feb 2016
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Well said Baby Wombat - and congratulations to you and your husband on your long relationship overall. We had our 40th anniversary a few weeks ago.
[ 27. October 2017, 02:16: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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