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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Divine Offices and Daily Prayer
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
Hi all,
It has been a couple of years since the last thread on and divine offices and other traditional cycles of daily prayer, perhaps it is time for a new one?
Any question or discussion point related to this topic is welcome - I am going to begin by copying over Oblatus' notification about the new Ecumenical Grail Psalter...
Please enjoy!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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dj_ordinaire
Host
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Posted
Copied over from the closed OP:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
We've all probably heard of the Revised Grail Psalter published by the monks of Conception Abbey and being revised again for use in Roman Catholic liturgical books in the USA.
A group of non-Roman-Catholics approached Conception Abbey with a proposed further revision to fit the Revised Grail better to the original Hebrew and to be better suited for reciting and chanting (so adding syllables to some of the too-short lines, etc.). It also added back the inclusive-language aspect to some degree. This was OK'd by Conception Abbey (although is specifically not approved for Roman Catholic liturgy) and published similarly by GIA in Chicago. It's called the Ecumenical Grail Psalter.
I like it a lot, and the abbot of our Benedictine community adopted the EGP for our revised breviary along with a new psalter distribution.
I was wondering whether others are familiar with the EGP and what they think of it. I think it's an improvement on the previous inclusive-language Grail; if we're using Grail I'd want to use the new EGP or the original 1963 one (if inclusivity were not an issue).
And I think we need a return of our previously popular (and some might say endless) Divine Office thread; I'm trying to think of an angle.
... and to add that yes, Benedictine Daily Prayer uses an adapted and mostly inclusive form of the Grail Psalter, so I know it well. It is generally serviceable, with a pleasing simplicity of manner.
The Grail does however tend to lack musicality, and the restoration of some longer lines certainly seems to help that from the ones I have looked at so far.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
Since the Community of S.Mary the Virgin (Wantage) split and some moved to form the Sisters of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Kingstanding (near Birmingham) under the Ordinariate, the live-streaming of their Offices has ceased.
So I have returned to the Lauds and Vespers podcasts of the Benedictine Sisters of Perpetual Adoration in Clyde, Missouri.
It is a bit more out of sync World Clock-wise than Britain but I am sure that praying yesterday's Office is better than not praying any Daily Office at all.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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BabyWombat
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# 18552
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Posted
My spouse and I were once Associates of the Order of the Holy Cross, and said MP and EP daily using their breviary. Once a quarter we’d have a day in silence, praying all four offices. This went on for about 10 years until work schedules impacted it. Now in retirement, spouse more of an informal Buddhist, and currently seeking some sort of daily discipline.
I tend to start the day with 10 or 15 minutes of mindfulness meditation followed by MP, using the TEC Book of Common Prayer. In the psalms I change third person references to God into second person: (e.g in Ps 95 “the sea is Yours, for You made it, and Your hands have molded the dry land”.) I find that for individual recitation it maintains prayer as a dialog with God. It also completely throws me off when using the psalms in community during Eucharist, since my mind translates “him” for “you” all too easily! I read the assigned OT and Gospel lessons: no canticle between them; just silence. A canticle after the Gospel, almost always one from Isaiah. Free form intercessions, the Our Father and a free form collect finish it off.
All of this, I should add, with a cup of coffee near to hand, sitting out of doors in gentle weather, and in a rather chill room in the winter before the central heating kicks on. It grounds me for the day.
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Let us, with a gladsome mind…..
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Two thoughts.
First, Common Worship Daily Prayer may be excellent for clergy and also for those who are retired, couples without children or people who live on their own. However, it's much too long and wordy for families to use together. I suspect that the same goes for most of the other sorts of daily prayer/office.
I'm way, way past the stage in my life when this applies to me, but does anyone know of anything suitable for young couples and families? Ideally, the same thing should be usable both together and alone. And no idealism please. I'm only interested in what might work.
Second, this is tangential to the new version of this thread, but going back to the original question about versions of psalters, if there already is one, why mess about with it and produce another with fiddly changes?
I feel rather the same about endless production of yet more translations of the Bible - particularly when there are still other languages that have not got translations at all. We need one good translation into some version of workable modern English, but we've actually had that since the 1940s.
I commented a few years ago that one of them should have been called the NAV "Not Another Version".
Grouch over.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Two thoughts.
First, Common Worship Daily Prayer may be excellent for clergy and also for those who are retired, couples without children or people who live on their own. However, it's much too long and wordy for families to use together. I suspect that the same goes for most of the other sorts of daily prayer/office.
The default version as printed in the red book certainly is on the wordy side. The actual rubrics permit much variation and omission. There are many 'simple offices' out there produced by religious communities or other groups, but maybe the C of E could produce a definitive version in booklet form.
After a few years of using the Grail psalter as in the RC Divine Office, I've been glad to revert to the more traditionally Anglican rhythms of the CW psalter. I like them both equally, but the former calls for a different way of praying the office.
One annoying feature of CW: Daily Prayer is the need for a separate lectionary to find the appointed psalms and readings. It shouldn't be too difficult to print the psalms as they are meant to be said in the course of the office, as the Breviary does. And a comprehensive selection of bible texts could be included so that one doesn't always have to carry two books. I know the office is available online but many people including me prefer a physical book.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Since the Community of S.Mary the Virgin (Wantage) split and some moved to form the Sisters of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Kingstanding (near Birmingham) under the Ordinariate, the live-streaming of their Offices has ceased.
Nashotah House Theological Seminary in Wisconsin, USA, has started broadcasting its sung offices, typically once a day on weekdays. (Sorry for the duplication; I mentioned this also in the Videos thread). It's on-demand, not live, but I like the way they pray Evensong, including some very good congregational Anglican chant singing (of the canticles).
They use the USA BCP 1979, Rite I, with The Hymnal 1982 and their own plainsong psalter.
Here's the page where they post their recordings.
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Hilda of Whitby
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# 7341
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Posted
I use a book called "Contemporary Office Book" from the Episcopal church. It contains morning, noon, evening, and compline (Rite II), the Psalter, Bible readings for each day (NRSV), and additional prayers. It is the only daily office book I have been able to stick with. While I am not crazy the NRSV, it's great to have everything in one handsome volume. It is a rather large volume, so when I travel, I use either "The Glenstal Book of Prayer" (Benedictine) or "Hour by Hour" (Episcopalian). Both are have very nice, short Daily Office "services". These are small enough to fit into a purse or backpack; I used these while commuting to and from work.
When I read the offices at home, sometimes I substitute psalms from "The Psalter: according to the Seventy" which an Orthodox friend gave to me.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
I also enjoy Choral Evensong from the BBC Radio 3 website.
On Tuesdays every week it is broadcast from a different place and each service is uploaded and available for listening for a month so it's really flexible like that.
Personally I listen "religiously" on a Thursday evening as I have a chunk of free time then. Following along in my black morocco-bound BCP 1662 I am simply transported ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
(for which reaaon I would not listen every single day even if I could)
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I also enjoy Choral Evensong from the BBC Radio 3 website.
On Tuesdays every week it is broadcast from a different place.
Wednesdays, actually!
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Teekeey Misha
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# 18604
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Posted
Call me old fashioned but...
I use a battered... erm... "much loved" copy of "The English Office" (1956). It has the full text of 1662 BCP Matins and Evensong, the calendar, daily readings, collects, propers and a full 1662 BCP psalter within its lovely leather covers and has travelled the world with me.
Years of experience mean I am quite adept at flicking between be-ribboned pages but, since such flicking is required, it does mean it's not user-friendly for beginners. Being the "full score" for both offices also makes it less than useful for beginners. Nonetheless, it is a joy and I commend it to the House.
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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I also enjoy Choral Evensong from the BBC Radio 3 website.
On Tuesdays every week it is broadcast from a different place.
Wednesdays, actually!
Indeed!
My "week" starts on Sundays and I get confused
Thanks for the correction
Just shows the effect even thinking about it has on me!
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Users of Benedictine Daily Prayer may note that there is a new edition of BDP, reviewed here.
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Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Joan Rasch
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# 49
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Posted
I do the office via DailyOffice.org, which provides morning and evening prayer according to the US Episcopal Church BCP. The thing that makes this site special is the opportunity to pray the office with others live, via video conferencing software. Webcasts are every week day morning at 7:00 and 9:00 am Eastern time, and Evensong Fridays at 9:00 pm. All the readings are done by those participating in the webcast, and most of the canticles are chanted. The services are recorded for those who want to listen later.
You do need to have a headset with microphone to do a reading, but the video is optional.
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* A cyclist on the information bikepath
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Users of Benedictine Daily Prayer may note that there is a new edition of BDP, reviewed here.
Ooh thanks, that is wonderful news!
Excellent to see that almost all of the Psalter is now prayed through and the collects (which were often clunky) have been revised.
One to purchase I think...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Users of Benedictine Daily Prayer may note that there is a new edition of BDP, reviewed here.
Thank you.
The publication kept being put back so I cancelled my pre-order some while back. I might reconsider now that it's finally available.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan Rasch:
I do the office via DailyOffice.org, which provides morning and evening prayer according to the US Episcopal Church BCP. The thing that makes this site special is the opportunity to pray the office with others live, via video conferencing software. Webcasts are every week day morning at 7:00 and 9:00 am Eastern time, and Evensong Fridays at 9:00 pm. All the readings are done by those participating in the webcast, and most of the canticles are chanted. The services are recorded for those who want to listen later.
You do need to have a headset with microphone to do a reading, but the video is optional.
Another option for TEC daily prayer is at
Mission St. Clare. You read the office on your own but they include audio for hymns and some chanted bits like the Gloria Patri.
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
OMG, that is so cool. Technology, our friend!
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:
Call me old fashioned but...
I use a battered... erm... "much loved" copy of "The English Office" (1956). It has the full text of 1662 BCP Matins and Evensong, the calendar, daily readings, collects, propers and a full 1662 BCP psalter within its lovely leather covers and has travelled the world with me.
Years of experience mean I am quite adept at flicking between be-ribboned pages but, since such flicking is required, it does mean it's not user-friendly for beginners. Being the "full score" for both offices also makes it less than useful for beginners. Nonetheless, it is a joy and I commend it to the House.
Similar here, although my small-format one volume version of 1662 has all that and no ribbons. I've got quite good at holding it one handed with my fingers separating the right pages!
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And is it true? For if it is....
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Another option for TEC daily prayer is at
Mission St. Clare. You read the office on your own but they include audio for hymns and some chanted bits like the Gloria Patri.
I favor Derek Olsen's St Bede's Breviary, which offers lots of options you can preset and change, and a mobile version I like to pray using my phone on a bus.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Does anyone use iBreviary? Yesterday, mine declared on its front page that we were celebrating the Nativity of Mary, but all the texts in the breviary section were of the day, with no feast day propers. I've never seen it do this before.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Univeralis seems far more reliable.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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dj_ordinaire
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# 4643
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Posted
Oh, that's a pity...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Users of Benedictine Daily Prayer may note that there is a new edition of BDP, reviewed here.
Ooh thanks, that is wonderful news!
Excellent to see that almost all of the Psalter is now prayed through and the collects (which were often clunky) have been revised.
One to purchase I think...
It arrived yesterday.
Does anyone know why Prime is missing?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Tobias
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# 18613
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Posted
I don't know specifically about Prime in the different editions of Benedictine Daily Prayer.
Speaking more generally, when the Divine Office / Liturgy of the Hours was revised in the RCC after Vatican II, Prime was 'suppressed'.
The reasoning was something like this:
Lauds was the original morning prayer of the Church;
as Lauds drifted from that function (being almost invariably attached to the night-office) Prime had developed as the new 'morning prayers';
with Lauds being restored to this position - always said in the morning, with prayers for the coming day - Prime would be an unnecessary duplication; so it was removed.
[ 04. October 2016, 10:02: Message edited by: Tobias ]
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Prime was not in the first ed. of BDP either, I don't think any explanation is given...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Prime was not in the first ed. of BDP either, I don't think any explanation is given...
Prime is considered suppressed, or deprecated, or something like that, in Office schemas since Vatican II. In monastic circles, it's prayed only by communities that use pre-Vatican II books; the current guide for Benedictines is Thesaurus Liturgiae Horarum Monasticae, which doesn't include Prime in its several psalter distributions but does have tables showing various ways of distributing the psalms formerly assigned to Prime.
TLHM explains that most monasteries don't pray Prime anymore but provides an appendix showing ways to distribute the psalms across the Little Hours when Prime is or isn't prayed.
And as BDP is post-Vatican II and published from St. John's Abbey, Collegeville (whose own office consists of Morning Prayer, Midday Prayer, Evening Prayer, and Compline, with a Vigils of Sundays and Feasts only), I'm not surprised there's no Prime. BDP aligns to some extent with TLHM Schema A but with Vigils simplified a lot.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Thank you, everyone.
I suppose it has to do with this business of suppression. I just wish I had known about it. I understand the point about Lauds but it is one of the two hinge offices of the day and is such is a major office. I've been known to do Vespers and Lauds in full at home, with incense offered at the appropriate points, and with all of the variable antiphons, usually on feasts and on Sundays when I haven't been at church. However, on most days the need for simple morning prayers is best suited by Prime for a private individual.
I suppose I could revert to the Monastic Diurnal, which I used to use in more devout days but the point of looking for an alternative was that ye olde worlde Englysche just doesn't pray well for me.
The offices of my jurisdiction are not currently available in English. Perhaps that could be my job.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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DitzySpike
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# 1540
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Posted
My personal NAV (Not-Another-Version) of the Psalms is the New Skete Psalter . Like many other Byzantine Psalters it is laid out in prose, but the translation is stunning, and its prosody always fresh.
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Lionel Pugh-Critchley
Apprentice
# 18700
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Posted
Here is my first post ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I've been reading through other posts and I'd like help on a 'Divine Office' issue.
Its simply - We are a small group of lay people hoping to start say Morning Prayer or Evening Prayer from Divine Office - how is it divided out - especially the psalms / canticle - between those present?
I've listened to divineoffice.org but am not clear how the psalms are divided between leader / people - and antiphons too - does the leader say before psalm and all after psalm.
We'd be very grateful for help.
Posts: 5 | From: St Oggs | Registered: Dec 2016
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Welcome Lionel. I hope you enjoy your time aboard.
In answer to your question, though, when you say 'Divine Office', there isn't a universal version. The principle is more or less the same but what you follow depends where you are and what tradition you belong to. So which book are you using?
Your description of yourself says that you are CofE, but the website you cite appears to be RC and quotes the prices for its books in US$s.
Wherever you are, unless there is a very, very good reason to do otherwise, I'd be strongly inclined to recommend that you stick to the home version.
If you're in England and CofE, that means either the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, a bit old fashioned, and repetitive, or Common Worship Daily Prayer.
Personally, unless you're an all services 1662 person, I'd recommend the latter. It's widely used. It's pretty easy to get hold of a copy. New ones are usually about £20. It's also available on line for free here. There are also links there to an app version. That is free if you use it only when you have web access, but you have to pay to have the version that can be used offline.
That will also give you the psalms and readings for the day, but it is worth buying and having the lectionary for the year - also fairly easily obtainable. That also makes it easier to tell what season you are in. The version with the maroony coloured cover is the easier one to follow.
You can also download virtually the whole corpus of Common Worship in bits in pdf.
Daily Prayer has a section suggesting how best to use it, with different options depending on time and circumstances.
That's quite a lot of data to digest. So I'll stop for now. Meanwhile, though, Is that any help?
[ 07. January 2017, 14:58: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Lionel Pugh-Critchley
Apprentice
# 18700
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Posted
Thank you Enoch and I am sorry I was not very clear. It was kind of you to help.
We thought about Common Worship but decided against it for a few reasons not least the very long scripture readings and that its not in one book.
So we are going for the RC Divine Office. Thats the one we'd like help with.
Posts: 5 | From: St Oggs | Registered: Dec 2016
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
What a lovely initiative!
Are you all friends or acquaintances and just decided to "have a go" at this?
Best of luck to you all!
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Indeed - and sort out amongst yourselves, as you see fit, as to how to 'do' the Office. There's no one 'right' way....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
...the 1662 Book of Common Prayer, a bit old fashioned, and repetitive...
Having spent a long time using (mostly morning prayer only as I tend only to manage once a day if that), on and off, Celebrating Common Prayer, on which I understand CW is based, I started using BCP1662 MP. I found that just because it was repetitive it got under my skin and into my heart in a way that CCP, with its fiddling around for different seasons and days, never did. I also find the very simple BCP lectionary and Psalter much easier to use. Now using a very much boiled down version of 1662 MP (opening collect, one psalm, NT reading, Benedictus/ 100th psalm, collect of the day, Lord's Prayer, intercession, Grace) which I'm finding works pretty well for a ten minute slot around breakfast time on a workday morning.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The way to say the psalms communally in line with a sung service is: antiphonal altogether, verses alternately between either two sides or leader and the rest.
The RC office is on the app Universalis. The Cof E Daily Prayer app is unreliable.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
The Roman Catholic Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours) in English-language versions has the psalms of the Grail Psalter, which are in strophes of one to six lines each (typically four). In our local RC cathedral, Evening Prayer is offered daily, and typically there's an officiant on each side of the center aisle, and lots of instruction is given to keep people on track throughout the office.
So the officiant on the right (epistle) side would give the page number for the first psalm and say the antiphon, then say "Together," and everyone would repeat the antiphon. Then that officiant would say, "Starting with this side," and his or her side would say the first strophe, the other side the second (led by that other side's officiant), and so on. At the end of the psalm, the first officiant would say, "Together," to remind them that all should say the Glory to the Father and then the antiphon.
The UK-published Divine Office gives asterisks in the psalms so they can also be recited a verse at a time rather than by strophe. Each verse has two halves divided by the asterisk. The first group would say the first half, pause at the asterisk, and then say the second half. Then the second group does the same with the next verse, and so on.
Alternation is a common feature of most ways of praying the psalms. This alternation can be between two sides of the church, or between an officiant and everyone else, a choir and congregation, a cantor and congregation, and perhaps some other ways.
The other way, which would be tedious in an Office but we do this for the psalm at Mass without music, is to have the celebrant say the first line, and then everyone says the rest of the psalm (or psalm portion), in unison, with no alternation.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lionel Pugh-Critchley:
Thank you Enoch and I am sorry I was not very clear. It was kind of you to help.
We thought about Common Worship but decided against it for a few reasons not least the very long scripture readings and that its not in one book.
So we are going for the RC Divine Office. Thats the one we'd like help with.
I can't help you with the Church of Rome's offices, but have you considered the already-mentioned Benedictine Daily Prayer, second edition?
It's ecumenical, traditional, inspiring, and surprisingly full for a short breviary, all firmly rooted in monastic spirituality.
There are some typographical errors, but don't let that put you off; a small group of us are working with the editor and the publisher to identify and correct them for the reprint which will happen at some point.
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
...and lots of instruction is given to keep people on track throughout the office.
This is a crime against liturgy.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
...and lots of instruction is given to keep people on track throughout the office.
This is a crime against liturgy.
I don't disagree. But when I lead our parish's Evening Prayer (USA BCP 1979) on Wednesdays, if I think there are newbies or infrequent participants present, I'll throw in a page reference when we go to the psalms appointed, or back to the EP rite for Magnificat, just to avoid leaving them behind. Even with the page numbers, some may still sit in bewilderment, but perhaps they'll catch on if they give it another chance.
I think if they've heard me give a page number, they might feel more confident about asking afterward, "Could you show me where you were in the book? I was lost."
One confusing thing, perhaps, is that our officiant's BCP is large and blue but the BCPs in the pews are smaller and red. I'm sure many newcomers see the officiant's book and try to find their place in the blue hymnal instead.
We really should provide a brochure explaining where to go for what in the daily services.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
The UK-published Divine Office gives asterisks in the psalms so they can also be recited a verse at a time rather than by strophe. Each verse has two halves divided by the asterisk. The first group would say the first half, pause at the asterisk, and then say the second half. Then the second group does the same with the next verse, and so on.
Interesting, most Anglican version also have the asterisk but rather than alternate on it they pause. This does far more damage to the sense of the psalm
quote:
Oblatus continued:
Alternation is a common feature of most ways of praying the psalms. This alternation can be between two sides of the church, or between an officiant and everyone else, a choir and congregation, a cantor and congregation, and perhaps some other ways.
Psalmody uses repetition in a variety of ways for poetic effect. It is therefore thought that temple worship had the two sides for antiphonal performance of the psalms. However, I do wish that someone would parse a set of psalms properly for antiphonal reading. Sometimes the division is on the whole verse end and sometimes you need to split the verse where the asterisk occurs. When my home congregation used to do antiphonal psalms every Sunday one of the jobs of the person preparing the service sheet was to parse the psalm in this way.
What I think happened is when the left right was very short they put both in a single verse but when long they separated them into two. Thus keeping the verse lengths about the same.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
We really should provide a brochure explaining where to go for what in the daily services.
It's a tough one, isn't it. I may well be wrong, but I think visitors will get much more out of having a very brief summary of the overall structure, along with the texts of the ordinary, with a note explaining that there is daily variation in psalms and readings, and inviting them to listen attentively.
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
The UK-published Divine Office gives asterisks in the psalms so they can also be recited a verse at a time rather than by strophe. Each verse has two halves divided by the asterisk. The first group would say the first half, pause at the asterisk, and then say the second half. Then the second group does the same with the next verse, and so on.
Interesting, most Anglican version also have the asterisk but rather than alternate on it they pause. This does far more damage to the sense of the psalm
It's a pause in the same place, so if saying the Divine Office by verses (rather than by strophes, which consist of 1-3ish verses, but mostly 2), one pauses at the midpoint of the verse. I was told (though I have no Hebrew) that the marks are there in the Hebrew, and the practice of pausing is ancient, even if we cannot know that that was what the ancient Hebrew practice was.
Certainly the practice of doing something at the mark is central to how the Gregorian tones for chanting the psalms work, so as a Western practice there's a certain antiquity.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
Users of Benedictine Daily Prayer may note that there is a new edition of BDP, reviewed here.
Ooh thanks, that is wonderful news!
Excellent to see that almost all of the Psalter is now prayed through and the collects (which were often clunky) have been revised.
One to purchase I think...
It arrived yesterday.
I received mine as a Christmas present from my Dad and began using it for the Solemnity of Mary Mother of God on New Year's Eve.
Generally I am impressed, and note that a few amendments I had permitted myself to introduce have now been officially added! For example, I often prayed both 'weeks' of psalms at Vigils as two nocturnes if I had the time, used Pss. 145-147 as the psalms for First Vespers of Feasts and retained the office from the weekly psalter for memorials.
I am still getting used to some of the psalm choices. I am not madly keen on Ps 20 for Festivals when Ps 24 seems much more appropriate, for instance. Also, Commons of all saints now used the Festival psalter instead of assigning ones proper for our Lady, apostles, etc - it seems odd not to use those for the BVM in particular which always seemed very appropriate.
One final gripe is that I don't like the tassels, the old ones were nice woven fabric, these ones are plasticky!
Overall though it seems a lovely book (and I hope I can be dedicated in using it, work permitting
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ).
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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David Goode
Shipmate
# 9224
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Posted
It'll grow on you, dj_ordinaire. Especially preserving the rhythm of the weekly psalter, along with the festival psalter, over too much disruption from oversuse of commons. I like to keep use of the commons to a minimum for that reason, using what's in the proper of the saints with the weekly psalter, even for most memorials. Benedictine liturgy and spirituality is about the rhythm of the psalter, not about introducing extraneous elements.
Posts: 654 | From: Cambridge | Registered: Mar 2005
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Stoic29
Apprentice
# 18712
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Posted
Does anyone use the St. Augustine Prayerbook?
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Öd’ und leer das Meer
Posts: 36 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2017
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stoic29:
Does anyone use the St. Augustine Prayerbook?
Yes, mainly for pre- and post-Mass devotions if I'm occupying a place in a pew rather than serving in the sanctuary. I also use the book (in its old and new editions) during eucharistic holy hours such as on Maundy Thursday night.
I don't think it really works as an office book, though, unless the brief prayers at morning and evening are deemed sufficient (I deem them not, but I'm glad they're provided).
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The office is not a poetry recital in which one reader expressing through feeling one particular interpretation of the text and imposing it on an audience. It is an act of corporate prayer. Recital with the rhythm imposed by the break allows all the participants to take their part. At the same time they can interpret the text to themselves finding in it many different aspects.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
"Expressing " should read "expresses".
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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