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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: new vicar- changes
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, I don't know exactly how mandatory it is, but it's certainly the usual custom to say the Collect of the Day, followed by the Second and Third Collects.
The Third Collect, for Aid against all Perils, must surely be one of the best-known Anglican prayers.
Why on earth would you leave any two out, except to shorten the service by a few seconds?
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
How mandatory are the rubrics? The rubrics say three. You only need to check in the BCP to find that out.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
Prompted by the thread about Ash Weds and St Valentine’s Day and discussion of which Collect, can anyone confirm that in BCP Evensong it is mandatory to say all three Collects?
We had just one yesterday.
As someone who has been the new vicar may I suggest talking to the cleric concerned? It may be that the new vicar is not familiar with the BCP and doesn't know that it is custom and practice to do all three collects. As a curate I was delighted that there was a very wise sacristan who taught me how to do the service as it was not my tradition.
One of the hardest things about being a new vicar is that the parish assumes that their way of doing things is the only way of doing things. They then get cross when the new vicar doesn't have a psychic moment and know that they have by custom and practice added this bit of the 1928 service to the BCP standard or they kept this other bit of high AC ritual during Lent that a previous vicar introduced in 1953 despite the fact that the church has slid down the candle quite a way since then.
I have put my foot down about processions. I'm sure that there is much wailing and bemoaning the changes the nasty new vicar has made but never to my face oddly enough. Unfortunately what worked when the church was full with a complete altar party is very different from today when we might have 30 in the congregation with one server with a dodgy knee who walks with a stick. Not processing doesn't mean we love Jesus any the less but we are being realistic about where the church is now and that is probably where it hurts.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
One of the hardest things about being a new vicar is that the parish assumes that their way of doing things is the only way of doing things. They then get cross when the new vicar doesn't have a psychic moment ...
Yes, I only discovered that our Christmas Eve service was Communion by chance, a few days before. The church leaders had simply assumed that all churches have communion at "Midnight Mass" but in fact I've not encountered it at the other churches I've served! Fortunately we had a bit of a laugh about it and it wasn't a problem, we may discuss our future practice at some point though.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
An outgoing Rector, whom I have just said goodbye to, as he was leaving for pastures new, related how one parishioner said to him when he first came, "But we don't have a sermon at the 8 o'clock early Communion service!" "Well, you do now!", replied the then new Rector.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
It may be that the new vicar is not familiar with the BCP and doesn't know that it is custom and practice to do all three collects.
I'm not a particular fan of the BCP, but it's one of the fundamental documents of the Anglican liturgical tradition. Evensong (choral or a less musically-elaborate version) is one of the classic elements of that. If clergy are being let loose upon parishes without a basic knowledge of the tradition, or of liturgical principles in general, something is very wrong.
Of course, the priest in Puzzler's church may be very familiar with all that and simply have his/her own reasons for doing something different. Provided it has a clear rationale and is well-explained there's no problem. But anecdotal evidence suggests that many of today's clergy are both liturgically and pastorally inept.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
An outgoing Rector, whom I have just said goodbye to, as he was leaving for pastures new, related how one parishioner said to him when he first came, "But we don't have a sermon at the 8 o'clock early Communion service!" "Well, you do now!", replied the then new Rector.
Probably the sort of parishioner who said 'we just want the pure and simple Prayer Book service.' To which the answer would have been much the same.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I suspect it was also that parishioner who was somewhat surprised to find that the Prayer Book service, pure and simple, contained the full Decalogue, Collect for the Queen, Exhortation, and a homily from the book of homilies...
....but was refused Communion because he had not signified his name to the Curate the day before....
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I suspect it was also that parishioner who was somewhat surprised to find that the Prayer Book service, pure and simple, contained the full Decalogue, Collect for the Queen, Exhortation, and a homily from the book of homilies...
....but was refused Communion because he had not signified his name to the Curate the day before....
IJ
A reasonable matter of conjecture, but a specially printed booklet was prepared for Holy Communion in traditional language, according to the choices and ways of doing things of this Rector. I go to this service at that church mid-week; it doesn't matter to me whether it is traditional or contemporary language and I don't mind either way.
The prayer for the Queen is left out, as is the Decalogue; the summary of Christ's Law is invariably used. The readings are for the day, rather than for the previous Sunday. The Agnus Dei is inserted between the Prayer of Consecration and the receiving of Communion. The Prayer of Oblation, is the invariable use at the post-communion, to the exclusion of the Thanksgiving Prayer.
This Rector (Mirfield trained) explained to me once, that he liked to handle the elements during the saying of the Prayer of Oblation - moved from pre- to post-communion. In his words to me, "The handling of the elements in this way is important. As in German, the verb goes to the end, this goes to the end as well."
B. F. Your other mentions are archaic, of course!
BTW I don't know who the parishioner is or was and whether or not they are still on the scene.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Archaic?
Yea, verily, but yet in ye rubricks....
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
anecdotal evidence suggests that many of today's clergy are both liturgically and pastorally inept.
Sadly, that is undeniably true. The introduction of Common Worship in the C of E was supposed to be an opportunity to encourage clergy to become more liturgically adept and creative. Sadly, all it seems to have done is give clergy the freedom to indulge their own preferences without any regard to even mild levels of good practice and liturgical tradition.
Bodging up something as basic as a BCP service is baffling.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RdrEmCofE:
in 65 years of experience in the CofE I have reached a conclusion on how incoming vicars should proceed in leadership.
My simple adage would be:
(1) If it works, don't even try to fix it.
(2) If by general agreement it does not work, then help the congregation to fix it.
(3) If the vicar's foresight and insight tells him/her that though something is only working tolerably well at present but is becoming less effective and in need of replacement, then share your vision of how the church might move forward together to become even more effective in being Christ's 'church'.
The problem as I see it is that some vicars go straight into (3) without sharing their vision and without bringing as many as possible of the congregation along with it.
They see themselves as a Moses figure leading a difficult and recalcitrant tribe, striding out purposefully but leaving the lame and infants far behind in the wilderness, wondering why they don't know where they are going, why they are 'going' and what all the God damned hurry is about anyway.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
As a new vicar one year in, Amen I say and amen. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Well, I don't know exactly how mandatory it is, but it's certainly the usual custom to say the Collect of the Day, followed by the Second and Third Collects.
The Third Collect, for Aid against all Perils, must surely be one of the best-known Anglican prayers.
Why on earth would you leave any two out, except to shorten the service by a few seconds?
IJ
While I do obey this ancient tradition when I do BCP, I think it's bad liturgical theology. A collect collects together a theme. One theme. Not scatters three.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
The introduction of Common Worship in the C of E was supposed to be an opportunity to encourage clergy to become more liturgically adept and creative. Sadly, all it seems to have done is give clergy the freedom to indulge their own preferences without any regard to even mild levels of good practice and liturgical tradition.
Another step towards Nonconformism, then?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The expectation was that liturgy was taught by the training incumbent.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
anecdotal evidence suggests that many of today's clergy are both liturgically and pastorally inept.
Sadly, that is undeniably true. The introduction of Common Worship in the C of E was supposed to be an opportunity to encourage clergy to become more liturgically adept and creative...
And why the blue blazes would you want the CofE clergy to be 'liturgically creative'? Get some good liturgy (which the CofE has on the whole a tradition of) and then get the clergy to use it without sodding it about. Say the black, do the red. Job done.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
'Creative' perhaps in the sense of using appropriate seasonal alternatives, where provided, for instance?
Otherwise, yes - say the black, and do the red.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Perhaps seasonal alternatives, yes: personally I think they can be overdone but that's probably just a matter of personal taste.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Archaic?
Yea, verily, but yet in ye rubricks....
IJ
I apologise if Archaic was the wrong word. All I wanted to do was to explain the use of BCP Communion as devised by this Rector in his church.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Angloid quote:
But anecdotal evidence suggests that many of today's clergy are both liturgically and pastorally inept.
IME that can be re-written thus: quote:
It is evident that many of today's clergy are inept.
As I've pointed out on this and other threads, it takes a particular kind of hubris and ineptitude to be unable to read from a large-print copy on a reading desk, or to follow simple instructions such as "give out the hymn number here".
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
anecdotal evidence suggests that many of today's clergy are both liturgically and pastorally inept.
Sadly, that is undeniably true. The introduction of Common Worship in the C of E was supposed to be an opportunity to encourage clergy to become more liturgically adept and creative...
And why the blue blazes would you want the CofE clergy to be 'liturgically creative'? Get some good liturgy (which the CofE has on the whole a tradition of) and then get the clergy to use it without sodding it about. Say the black, do the red. Job done.
"Back in the day" (ie when CW was being introduced), Bishop Colin Buchanan came up with an enlightening metaphor. I may be about to misquote him, but it was something like this:
The BCP is basically like a frozen meal. All you have to do is reheat it. In fact, do NOT try and do anything else with it because you will just end up with a mess.
The ASB was like an "a la carte" restaurant, where you could choose from a menu ("choose any one item from section a and any one item from section b").
Common Worship is like being given the ingredients and then having the chance to cook your own meal.
The point he was making was that to get the most out of CW, you had to have developed some basic "cooking" skills. You can always just take the pre-prepared service provided in CW, but that isn't actually what CW was intended to do.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
But *why*? Cooking your own liturgy is not the CofE's tradition. It is, as I understand it, a Reformed tradition, and that's fine. But a common- and I mean very substantially common- liturgy is one of the core parts of the CofE's identity. Not, I think, that Colin Buchanan was ever particularly in the CofE mainstream, as far as identity went.
[ 13. February 2018, 19:34: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Well, in a way, I miss the little eau-de-nil Series 3 Communion booklet of 1973!
For all its shortcomings, it was user-friendly, IMHO, with clear type (say the black, do the blue, IIRC).
There are authorised CW booklets out there - the Additional Curates Society publishes one, which follows CW pretty closely (adding in one or two Carflick bits).
On studying one, I saw that it would do very nicely at Our Place for the usual Sunday/weekday Eucharists, with everything the congregation needs.
Seasonal bits (Invitation to Confession, The Peace, Preface, Blessing/Dismissal) said by the priest don't have to appear in print in the people's book.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But *why*? Cooking your own liturgy is not the CofE's tradition. ...
Isn't it? It strikes me as being very much part of the Anglo-Catholic tradition to claim to know better than the Prayer Book, to change the order in which things happen, and to try to get away with inserting extra bits purloined from either the 1549 prayer book or the Roman Missal depending on taste.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
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Posted
quote:
Isn't it? It strikes me as being very much part of the Anglo-Catholic tradition to claim to know better than the Prayer Book,
Wasn't The Prayer Book itself a new recipe for prayer built upon the foundation of what went before but influenced by new theological insights.
Cranmer was a 'Chef' par excellence, was he not.
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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But *why*? Cooking your own liturgy is not the CofE's tradition. ...
Isn't it? It strikes me as being very much part of the Anglo-Catholic tradition to claim to know better than the Prayer Book, to change the order in which things happen, and to try to get away with inserting extra bits purloined from either the 1549 prayer book or the Roman Missal depending on taste.
You're quite right Enoch. Some of the same people would go to stake in order to have bishops but cut off their right hands rather than obey one.
But I suppose they would argue, we're not cooking our own liturgy; we are attempting to reclaim the liturgy of the Catholic Church which is ours by right. Or something like that. Also,in practice, however idiosyncratic some priests and churches were with their liturgy, they would use the same rite week after week, day after day. Unlike some modern experimentalists who chop and change all the time. There is a difference.
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
ISTM that poor Cranmer became embroiled in the political brouhaha of his time, and was (I suppose) forced, in a sense, to change the 1549 English version of the Mass to the odd concoction of 1552.
One wonders what might have transpired if 1549 had remained the norm.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But *why*? Cooking your own liturgy is not the CofE's tradition. ...
Isn't it? It strikes me as being very much part of the Anglo-Catholic tradition to claim to know better than the Prayer Book, to change the order in which things happen, and to try to get away with inserting extra bits purloined from either the 1549 prayer book or the Roman Missal depending on taste.
but that's not 'cooking your own'
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
ISTM that poor Cranmer became embroiled in the political brouhaha of his time, and was (I suppose) forced, in a sense, to change the 1549 English version of the Mass to the odd concoction of 1552.
One wonders what might have transpired if 1549 had remained the norm.
IJ
Cranmer was to some extent 'a very flexible man.' Henry 8's lapdog/attack poodle in the matter of The Divorce, constantly being swayed by continental reformers in matters theological/liturgical. Recanting his protestant faith under Q Mary (but then withdrawing the recantation before going to the stake.
All but the more virulent/violent prods would today, I think, agree that 1549 was much better than 1552.
On the subject of liturgical style/literacy, however, he was hard to beat.
And certainly in the political mess that followed the death of King Henry, neither he nor King Edward was equal to the power politics of the Privy Council.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
but that's not 'cooking your own'
It is if you're the one who chooses which bits to add or leave out where, and which cupboard you take them from. It is, even more, if you get to choose when you can look down your noses at those who don't make exactly the same selection as you do.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
... All but the more virulent/violent prods would today, I think, agree that 1549 was much better than 1552. ...
Terrible though it may seem even to whisper such a thing on this board, but I don't think many regular churchgoers, whether virulent/violent prods, easy-going MotRers, or even quite a lot of affable AffCaths either know or care.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
... All but the more virulent/violent prods would today, I think, agree that 1549 was much better than 1552. ...
Terrible though it may seem even to whisper such a thing on this board, but I don't think many regular churchgoers, whether virulent/violent prods, easy-going MotRers, or even quite a lot of affable AffCaths either know or care.
And according to Diarmaid McCulloch's bio of Blessèd Thomas, the martyr preferred 1552 over 1549, which he felt made far too many concessions to the unadvanced. The 1549 is closer to the TEC, South African, and Canadian books than the 1552, but that is perhaps for another thread.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I don't think there is any "perhaps" about it! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
/slight tangent alert/
IIRC, the 1549 Communion rite is still available for use in the C of E, though I think you need the Bishop's permission. It sometimes gets 're-enacted' liturgically, as part of a training course, for example.
Having said that, the service booklet would need to be rendered in modern spelling!
Here is the first part of the service, rendered as a Low Mass without music - not a particularly high quality film, BTW, but sufficient to give a flavour of this first English-language Mass.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I don't think there is any "perhaps" about it!
"Perhaps" is Anglican-speak for "certainly."
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
... Here is the first part of the service, rendered as a Low Mass without music - not a particularly high quality film, BTW, but sufficient to give a flavour of this first English-language Mass. ...
I accept that the sound quality isn't very good, but as an illustration of what I'm complaining about when I've described on these boards a typical Anglo-Catholic Communion Service of 50 years ago as "turn your back on the congregation, hunch over the altar and mumble" that could hardly be bettered.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
To think that our new vicar could have been of that ilk!
When considering what sort of person was wanted, the PCC stated a preference , if forced to one extreme or the other, for low church rather than ultra high, so in that respect we got what we wanted. Just wish he would prepare properly for worship, not have to ask someone half way through.
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
@Enoch - well, I didn't say I particularly liked the flavour!
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
@Puzzler - I agree that good preparation is essential, however familiar or unfamiliar the liturgy might be. There's no excuse for sloppiness, which is unworthy of the Lord we are supposed to be worshipping.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Equally true for Nonconformists, by the way - I hate sloppy rambling unthoughtout services.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I expect the same could apply to RC services - one hears of slap-dash Masses, edifying to neither beast or man.
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
but that's not 'cooking your own'
It is if you're the one who chooses which bits to add or leave out where, and which cupboard you take them from. It is, even more, if you get to choose when you can look down your noses at those who don't make exactly the same selection as you do.
No - did the whole of it, not bits - when I was in an urban priority area, the Roman Rite suited the level of literacy of the congregation - they couldn't cope woth the verbosity to which Anglican liturgies are prone.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
[QUOTE] ...according to Diarmaid McCulloch's bio of Blessèd Thomas, the martyr preferred 1552 over 1549, which he felt made far too many concessions to the unadvanced.
That is certainly my understanding. One interesting question is what Cranmer might have done had he been allowed to continue for a few more years. As far as I can see, even 1552 was not the end product as far as he was concerned.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Puzzler
Apprentice
# 18908
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Posted
All- age worship (Morning Prayer) this morning.
Service lasted 44 minutes and that included about 10 minutes of extraneous material ie various additional notices, welcome to a new family, a birthday, with three lots of applause......no psalm, no canticles, no robes, no candles, no choir, piano not organ, no reverence, sermon of dubious theology, lost his place because he swapped the order around.
Can I bear to go again?
Posts: 27 | From: England | Registered: Jan 2018
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RdrEmCofE
Shipmate
# 17511
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Posted
quote:
[Enoch] I accept that the sound quality isn't very good, but as an illustration of what I'm complaining about when I've described on these boards a typical Anglo-Catholic Communion Service of 50 years ago as "turn your back on the congregation, hunch over the altar and mumble" that could hardly be bettered.
Yes but you can thank the Oxford Movement for all that.
Cranmer would have had the altar in the nave, with the priest facing North, not East.
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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19
Posts: 255 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jan 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Puzzler:
All- age worship (Morning Prayer) this morning.
Service lasted 44 minutes and that included about 10 minutes of extraneous material ie various additional notices, welcome to a new family, a birthday, with three lots of applause......no psalm, no canticles, no robes, no candles, no choir, piano not organ, no reverence, sermon of dubious theology, lost his place because he swapped the order around.
Can I bear to go again?
I suppose it all depends on your expectations, but at least it was only 44 minutes.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
RdrEmCofE said:
quote:
Cranmer would have had the altar in the nave, with the priest facing North, not East.
On the north side of the Lord's Table, facing south, I think you mean.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
@Puzzler - sounds pretty dire, but it need not necessarily be so. An All-Age service could well include robes (alb and stole), candles (2 on the altar), piano, and reverence.
It need not include 10 minutes of notices, applause, faffing around because of lack of preparation, or a sermon of dubious theology (though that's perhaps a subjective opinion).
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Does anyone know enough about the 1549 prayer book to know whether the priest continued to face east with his back to the congregation, as in the previous Latin version and as in the youtube? My impression is that the instruction to be on the north side wouldn't have come in until either 1552 or 1559, but I don't know.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Does anyone know enough about the 1549 prayer book to know whether the priest continued to face east with his back to the congregation, as in the previous Latin version and as in the youtube? My impression is that the instruction to be on the north side wouldn't have come in until either 1552 or 1559, but I don't know.
On this continued tangent....The rubric just before the Great Thanksgiving reads: quote:
Then the Priest, turnyng hym to the Altar, shall saye or syng, playnly and distinctly, this prayer folowyng...
and in two other places the rubrics direct the priest to either face the Holy Table or Lord's Borde, or to turn and face the people. This would suggest that 1549 assumed ad orientem celebrations, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of the more "advanced" clergy had already introduced north-ending it. As well, the rubrics direct that communicants "tary in the quire," women on one side, men on the other, before receiving.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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