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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are Men Useless?
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
This train of thought started when I watched this TED lecture, in which Bunker Roy describes how to teach illiterate women about running solar power installations for their villages. He mentions that men are "unteachable" for this purpose, since all they want is a piece of paper that will let them leave the village. Grandmothers, OTOH, have commitment.
Then I came upon this India.blog article in today's NYT, entitled "Are Men Useless?"
The main point in this was that men tend to spend their time and income on hanging around with other men, usually also drinking alcohol, while women look after their (extended) families. This seems to be true of many underdeveloped countries. One such mention is shown in video here by Nicholas Kristof although I'm sure many shipmates can offer their own examples.
The same could be said of church hierarchies, of business leaders (particularly the gang that spent all of our money to get us the Recession) and various other organisations.
Do men have much use in our organisations and leadership, or should they be kept as pets and incidental workers? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
So what have been your experiences of using men? Positive?
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Maybe another way of looking at this is to suggest that any society failing to engage (I'm unwilling to say "use") 50% of it's members - whether they are men or women - is a society that will rapidly be outclassed by those who do so.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
my father was far from useless.
my first husband was completely useless.
my second (and current) husband is somewhere inbetween.. and has had pereiods when he's been worse than useless, and other times when he's been quite useful.
:-)
But on the actual topic, I think there is some truth to it.. but in a cultural rather than biological sense. in some cultures, it seems, men have indeed become uesless for most purposes. these cultures seem to have developed such that men had a very useful role in warfare/physical defense of their families, and perhaps some other roles, but those roles are mostly no longer necessary. these cultures haven't adapted to find new "uses" for men.
but I'm sure even in these cultures there are many men who really step up to the plate and take on a lot of responsibility/jobs. I've heard of cases in Afrida, say, where a boy is left orphaned taking care of his younger siblings, being both a father and mother to them. I'm sure that male is far from useless. I'm sure he's not alone.
I was at a conference yesterday where someone was quoted: "if you want things said, ask a man, if you want things done, ask a woman". that may be true in some ways. we (as groups) have different strengths and weaknesses. the trick is making the best use of both. some societies do this better than others.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
With all the usual caveats about humans and generalizations, I think men are "useful" for their propensity for risk-taking. The drive that leads stupid boys to kill themselves making a YouTube video also creates criminals and geniuses. In general, though, I do like balance, both individual and collective. Buy life insurance before going skydiving. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
Clearly, the honeybees know how to live. The workers are all female, as is, of course, the queen. The drones (males) have one purpose only: very competitively to pursue a queen when she takes a mating flight. The winner is rewarded with a death penalty.
The worker bees control the number of drones to be grown by means of the size of the honeycomb cells they build. Drones are a summertime luxury, ornaments of prosperity. They are defenseless (lacking stings), and when the flowers stop blooming and weather turns chilly, the workers push them out of the hive and leave them to die.
There has been an upsurge of interest in amateur beekeeping recently, notably from women who freely admit their admiration of this social structure.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
So people are to be measured as to whether they are "useful" or not? If no evidence is found, discrimination should be made against them?
Anyone with any ounce of intelligence will know something about the nature of how we perceive other people, how we simplify behaviours in order to manage the sheer quantity of people and what they do. That such simplified perceptions lead to self-fulfilling prophesies, whereby we see what we want to see, means that such a measurement of "usefulness" will be biased towards our own prejudices.
Whichever group of people the question is about (say, women, disabled people, gays, Muslims), the question says more about the one who asked the question than anything else.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
But the point made in the "Are Men Useless" article is that too many of the men are actively unhelpful to their families, and that those men are too likely to be vindictive about the perceived loss of power to notice that they are at fault.
The same could be said about the guys who move from relationship to relationship without consideration far any children they may have, particularly those who refuse to pay any child care costs. Would you prefer to lay the blame solely on the single mums for not suffering the abuse that is offered? I know there are abusive women as well, BTW, but not on the scale of abandonment implied by the number of single mums.
One thing history has shown is that men are expendable, whether as cannon-fodder, monastics/church hierarchialists or suicidal risk-takers, and that women have always had to cope despite the obstacles set up by men.
Isn't this the basis of the need for International Woman's Day?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Some men are useless. Some women are pretty useless too, but on average they're better at looking reasonably useful by pottering about doing odd things.
It does seem very odd to me to divide men and women in discussion as though they were different species with totally different characteristics. This limits everyone.
(Note: Aravis is currently messing around on the Ship while Touchstone is washing up and peeling potatoes ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) )
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Some men are useless. Some women are pretty useless too, but on average they're better at looking reasonably useful by pottering about doing odd things.
It does seem very odd to me to divide men and women in discussion as though they were different species with totally different characteristics. This limits everyone.
(Note: Aravis is currently messing around on the Ship while Touchstone is washing up and peeling potatoes )
The fact remains, however, that humanitarian aid agencies in many countries in the developing world, have found these generalizations however uncomfortable they might make us, to be quite helpful in pragmatic terms. Shifting our developmental aid to empowering women rather than men has yielded tremendous results, at least in Africa. However, that differential is related, I'm sure, to cultural factors rather than innate gender-related ones. The same would not be true in every culture/place.
Which leads to troubling and possibly dead-horse discussions about the role of culture in humanitarian aid. To what degree do we attempt to fiddle with indigenous culture (encourage men to be more "useful") for (what we perceive to be) the "good of the whole"? What sort of unintended consequences might that sort of intervention yield?
[ 09. March 2012, 17:27: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Some men are very good at pretending to be useless, when they don't want to do something. They hope that a woman will bustle in and take over.
But of course in other contexts, women sometimes do the same.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
Hey, hey, now. Men are fun in bed, so long as they aren't one of those guys who won't perform oral sex, and I think it's sweet how some of them even want careers. Also, they're good at lifting heavy things.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Some men are very good at pretending to be useless, when they don't want to do something. They hope that a woman will bustle in and take over.
H'mmm that's my cover blown . Even though I am reasonably useless at doing quite a few things compared to a woman , I do get quite annoyed if I'm told so.
I understand this is known as being a "man's head".
If the technological age continues to make the necessity of hard labour all but redundant,
then the role of men will be increasingly diminished . And without the grace and tolerance of a woman many of us will indeed be left out in the cold.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
I was going to contribute something about the importance of father figures in the bringing up of children. But then I remembered that I'd read about this in context of bringing up boys. Which argument rather equates male-ness to the study of Geography, a degree in which, as any fule no, qualifies one to...teach Geography.
Are Geographers useless?
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Only if they don't do what is helpful.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Do men have much use in our organisations and leadership, or should they be kept as pets and incidental workers?
The real question should be are women useless? After all the attribute of usefulness is really rather useless without someone to be useful to. Now useful people are far too busy being useful to allow others to be useful to them. Thus it follows without men to be useful to, women’s usefulness would be utterly useless, so to speak.
Therefore we can say with authority that:
A) Women are usefully unless.
B) Men are uselessly useful.
C) Cats are ambiguous.
D) Generalisations are generally generated from the genitalia,
or to put it another way more often than not they are a load of old bollocks.
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
If this had been written about women we would hear howls of outrage . Saying either men or women are useless is sexist and has no place on this site.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Some context would probably be helpful, but I"m too lazy to chase down some links for someone else's OP. The fact is, regardless of how incorrect it sounds/is, pragmatically, quite a few humanitarian organizations have come to that conclusion-- bypassing men to focus their aid directly to women, and finding much better return for their investment. I think that is a worthy area of discussion for this board. What do we do with that? How far are we willing to go to undermine patriarchal cultures for the good of the family? Or, conversely, how long are we willing to let a family linger in poverty, often at starvation level, out of respect for an indigenous culture? I find these deeply troubling, but vital, questions for us to grapple with.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
They are important points, cliffdweller. But the OP posits a universal. The evidence hardly supports this. Is the guy who is worried sick about losing his job "useless" for worrying about how his family will survive? The guy who came to clear the blocked drain outside my house this morning (unpleasant job) is "useless?"? And so on and so on...
Lazy, incompetent, etc. men certainly exist everywhere. If you want to criticize them, then have at it. And it is certainly true that in certain societies, men can be lazy and obstructive generally. In those cases, matters need to be dealt with appropriately, no doubt about that.
But extending a criterion to cover all members of any group, anywhere, is called essentialism. And then using a negative criterion to criticize everyone, whether guilty or not, is called demonization. As Rosa Winkel pointed out, by the time you find yourself doing this, you stopped talking about other people a way back. You are, however, giving away a lot about yourself. Just take a look at the roll-call of historical figures famous for doing it.
So how about some kind of analysis of the societies where these problem manifestions seem to have entrenched themselves? What sorts of places are they? Why is it persistent? Honestly, if you don't do this, however much money you fling at the problem, the chances are that some reaction will take place and the old ways will establish themselves. If you can understand some of the reasons then you are at least in a position to lock any improvements in.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643
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Posted
What a ghastly thread.
Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Let's see how it goes first, Cod.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
They are important points, cliffdweller. But the OP posits a universal. The evidence hardly supports this. Is the guy who is worried sick about losing his job "useless" for worrying about how his family will survive? The guy who came to clear the blocked drain outside my house this morning (unpleasant job) is "useless?"? And so on and so on...
Maybe I was reading too much into the OP, but I didn't read it as universal. All three of the links provided fit the paradigm I'm talking about. None were articulating an "all men everywhere are useless" pov, but they did all seem to be suggesting something quite close: "all men in this place are useless". The places in question were all specific, patriarchal cultures in the developing world.
It IS sexist, no doubt about it. If it were articulated in the reverse I'd be mad as hell. Yet it fits all too well the experiences many of us have had in the developing world. I'm not quite sure what to do with that.
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
So how about some kind of analysis of the societies where these problem manifestions seem to have entrenched themselves? What sorts of places are they? Why is it persistent? Honestly, if you don't do this, however much money you fling at the problem, the chances are that some reaction will take place and the old ways will establish themselves. If you can understand some of the reasons then you are at least in a position to lock any improvements in.
Yes, I quite agree. But the only way you can get to that step is by taking this first step of identifying the problem, or at least raising the question. Which means, however problematic it may be, saying something quite close to "are men (at least in this place/culture useless?"
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Well, that's certainly starting to follow a more fruitful line of enquiry, so I wouldn't want to inhibit anyone from doing that. I'm far from sure though that it was an approach implicit at the start.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Going back to Chill's comment: It is clear from the examples linked in the OP that many (not all, admittedly) of the men in those circumstances are not particularly useful beyond the stage of impregnation. The mothers and grandmothers do most of the work in keeping the families (including the boys) going. Hence the women are "useful" to others, while the men may actually be negatively useful - i.e. their activitiea actually get in the way.
As are the men in many church hierarchies and
the men in many of the money-manipulation entities.
Obviously, the blanket statement about "all men" being useless is silly, hence the Satanic smiley. But the activities of a very large number of men can be seen as not helpful at all. The statement "Youth is fleeting but immaturity can last a lifetime" will almost certainly be taken as referring to a particular sort of male, for instance.
The tribal cultures sorted out the problem of too many males by having incessant warfare. The Brits did the same sort of thing up to 1945, and now have the problem of a "yob" cultural group which doesn't fit the needs of a "modern" society. And I'm sure the Chinese are becoming anxious about the imbalance of gender numbers relating to the one-child policy that is now being eased.
As Bunker Roy said, and as I have seen in my teaching career, too many men are untrainable, while the women have had to cope with looking after those men as well as their children.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
The trouble is, that when you have a useless male (or female!) it generally took members of both sexes to train him/her that way. I have a particular family in mind.
There's also the question of whether what looks "useless" to us is really "useful" (in some way) to the family the person comes from. Male X may be a playboy because the family wants a conspicuous consumer to demonstrate its wealth to the rest of the neighborhood. Female Y may be an uneducated, unskilled but pretty doll for the same reason. Drones of both genders are a statement that "we have so much that we can afford to waste, even people."
Similarly the abusive, hard-drinking, hard-gambling and unfaithful father. By decent standards he's a waste of space; but in a perverted way he may be a family signpost and advertisement as well: "Look what we put up with, and are even proud of, in a perverted way. We are TOUGH sons-of-fuckers. You people with your soft, responsible fathers and husbands don't know you're born. So DON'T MESS WITH US or you'll be sorry!"
It's perverse. But it does meet a certain standard of usefulness.
If you see the same pattern pop up again and again and again, it's not an accident. There's generally a need being met somewhere.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If you see the same pattern pop up again and again and again, it's not an accident. There's generally a need being met somewhere.
When it's a cultural problem like the examples in the OP, though, I think often the need that was met was somewhere in the past. Those paradigms that might have "worked' in some way in pre-colonial period or even under colonization are not "working" today-- that's really what the OP links are complaining about. The problem then becomes, do you work on changing cultures to create a more meaningful/ purposeful role for men (a very long process) or do you simply empower women (much quicker as we've seen, but one wonders what impact that will have on the overall culture, particularly boys).
Lots of possible unintended consequences here. But too much at stake to let that keep us passive. How best to proceed?
[ 10. March 2012, 00:27: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
Whilst as Cod said, the thread could become ghastly, there is a really important point here - many cultures develop gender roles, and if they fit the circumstances, that culture (and its gender roles) survive or even thrive. When those circumstances change, the gender role may become "useless".
For example: in Melanesia, before colonialism, there were many small groups, often in a state of hostility. When people went to tend their gardens, the physically stronger people (males, usually) would defend the less physically stronger (females and children). Which meant of course that men were on their guard, and women did the gardening! When walking home, the men would carry a weapon and have his hands otherwise free for fighting and defending his family, and the women would carry the children and vegetables. (I'll try and avoid a tangent as to the morality of this position, which would be anachronistic anyway - please just accept it as a description)
Now, transpose that same pattern to the colonial period, in which the colonial authorities have imposed peace. The men are no longer allowed to carry weapons (and in any event have no use for them) and appear to straggle along doing nothing, while the women appear (are) doing all the work.
Sometimes the culture adjusts fairly well - for example, in Melanesia the energies of many of the young men were put into work in the cash economy (though this then led into urban drift); fighting for others (for example, thousands of Fijian soldiers serve in the British Army); or becoming religious evangelists (for example, the Melanesian Brothers). But sometimes the culture does not adjust well - for example, the raskals of Papua New Guinea, who are young men, cut adrift from village life, and now form criminal gangs that are doing significant damage to the country.
No culture is immune from these challenges - and whilst Melanesia and Africa provide a clear examples, I am sure the same thing - poor adjustment of gender roles in a time of significant cultural stress - affects many other cultures, including our own. So before we take the mote out of the eyes of others ...
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
I recall a story of two mothers waiting outside school for their offspring. "Of course" says one "my husband makes all the important decisions in our household". "Oh" says t'other "what decisions do you make?" "Things like where we'll go on holiday, should we change the car, can we afford to redo the kitchen". "So what does your husband decide". "How to stop global warming, how to end famine, how to bring about world peace..............".
I have a use. My partner is petite, and I'm not. I can safely be berated for the foulups of the world and she knows that I (and maybe only I and the dog) won't deliberately hurt her even when the pain makes her unreasonable. That's me - half of a double act with a nine-year-old multi-coloured, undecipherably crossbred terrier - life's good, and probably much better than I deserve.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
As for me, the Really Useful Things I can do are:
- Pee standing up which is a Really Good Thing outside in the winter.
- Follow instructions.
- Try to be tidier than I am by nature.
- Be a father and try to follow the children's instructions particularly now that they are grown
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
How timely. My son has just informed me of his vast pity for those who can't do the truly useful things in life, like shooting things with their willies.... ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
How timely. My son has just informed me of his vast pity for those who can't do the truly useful things in life, like shooting things with their willies....
Just wait. He'll end up peeing with friends, and they inevitably pee on each other. I know this from personal experience. I remember how it all happened at kindergarten. The one who did it is a university professor today.
Writing words in the snow is also Very Much Fun. Little boys coming in and out of the house after drinking all the water they can hold so as to write long Deep Thoughts etc. There are certainly worse things!
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
Personally, I read the OP as provocative - slightly overstating the case in order to get the discussion going.
I've also heard of many agencies in developing countries finding it more worthwhile focusing on women. But I don't think this means we have to say men are useless.
I think whenever people are shoehorned into gender roles, we risk them feeling or becoming useless as individuals, because they may be forced into a role that isn't fulfilling for them or that they may not be any good at.
But as far as whole groups of men seeming useless - I would say it's the same sort of disorientation any group finds when their familiar/traditional role becomes redundant or irrelevant. When men have been socialized to fill certain roles and then aren't needed for those roles, they're going to feel, and in turn act, useless. Women would do the same thing - and in fact, many women have felt that way when their kids left home, back in the day when women were defined as homemakers and had their whole identities invested in being mothers.
So the real question should be, what forces are making men seem or feel useless, and what can be done about it? How can men be re-engaged in their families and communities? How can they reclaim their identities?
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I don't for a moment think that men are 'useless', just that both men and women tend to be at their best in mixed-gender enviroments and where gender equality is the norm. As a woman I've always found female only enviroments a pain in the arse (too bitchy and cliquey, way too many inane conversations about shoes). Likewise my husband doesn't particularly warm to male only enviroments. I also love having close male friends, as men tend to be quite easy and straightforward in their friendships (women are more angsty). Both genders have natural tendencies which balance each other out nicely in the right enviroment. Separating them or privileging one over the other destroys that balance.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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frin
Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9
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Posted
The TED network example in the OP is not about uselessness at all but social cohesion. In the rural context of poverty described, a younger man who is educated in a saleable skill is likely to take that skill and travel to places of work. He is likely to move from a rural life to an urban one. This is not useless by almost any measure - his economic wellbeing, the literacy of the population as a whole. However, for a funder with limited resources trying to seed a particular piece of knowledge into a particular community, that mobility is a threat. Notice that it isn't young women that they wish to teach either - it is grandmothers, women so integrated into the care structures of a local community that they will not easily take their new found skills and relocate.
One of the first cohorts of international students through Leeds University that an elderly friend recalls was a group of teachers from a developing country. Again, all were grandmothers, to ensure that the money sunk into their education would return to the local communities from which they had been drawn.
The misdirection in the TED speech was the idea that all the man wants is a 'piece of paper'. What he wants is paying work, and that is what the men who got 'pieces of paper' in the early years of such projects left to find.
'frin
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"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.
Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Well said that Yerevan .
I have worked quite a few all-male environments and am not overly keen on them . Whilst there is comradery, there is also silliness and a tendency to put women down in their absence. Should a woman turn up on the scene their demur changes instantly, usually for the better.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
The converse is also true.
I find all women workplaces can get a bit stifling too. They can become overly serious and competitive. With a balance of men/women the atmosphere lightens and there's much more laughter, in my experience.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
(Sorry Yerevan - I didn't read your post before I replied to Rolyn, then I said pretty much the same)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
On the subject of 'Use' - I think we ALL need to feel useful and wanted. It's a deep seated human need.
Finding the place which best uses our talents and interests is something well worth striving for, male or female imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Inger
Shipmate
# 15285
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Posted
I think one of the problems that aid groups encountered in the past was lack of understanding of the traditional division of labour. I remember reading of one example: a charity was installing little engines to help draw water from very deep wells. Being white men, they naturally instructed the men of the village in how to maintain and repair the engines.
Coming back a year later, they found most of the engines had broken down due to lack of maintenance. When they asked why this had been allowed to happen, the reply (from the men) would be that drawing water was women's work, and nothing to do with them. From then on they took care to instruct the women (no doubt having to overcome a certain amount of their own prejudice in the process).
You can easily turn this into, 'men are useless'.
Posts: 332 | From: Newcastle, UK | Registered: Nov 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Any human females have this problem? (Pubs at chucking out time, perhaps?)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
frin, you actually talked about the topic of the opening post! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) No one else has done that on this mildly ghastly cliche-ridden thread!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Hi,
My name is Tortuf and I am a man.
I first started being a man about seven years ago and it has been downhill ever since.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tortuf:
Hi,
My name is Tortuf and I am a man.
I first started being a man about seven years ago and it has been downhill ever since.
The first step is admitting you have a problem.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Pardoner
Shrive me timbers
# 15043
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Posted
Are men useless?
Well, I was a single dad for 7 years, after my wife left.
I did it all.
Useless?
Not me.
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Thin line between heaven and here (Bubbles)
Posts: 167 | Registered: Aug 2009
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frin
Drinking coffee for Jesus
# 9
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
frin, you actually talked about the topic of the opening post! No one else has done that on this mildly ghastly cliche-ridden thread!
I tried reading the other responses, saw how disappointing the gender politics was, then closed my eyes and thought of Purgatory. It helped. Later I shall see if I can think of a cliched anecdote in order to be down with the other kids.
'frin
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"Even the crocodile looks after her young" - Lamentations 4, remembering Erin.
Posts: 4496 | From: a library | Registered: Apr 2001
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
One thing history has shown is that men are expendable, whether as cannon-fodder, monastics/church hierarchialists or suicidal risk-takers, and that women have always had to cope despite the obstacles set up by men...the activities of a very large number of men can be seen as not helpful at all...The tribal cultures sorted out the problem of too many males by having incessant warfare
So you're saying that sexism is ok now? Derogatory generalisations about members of the opposite sex and saying that too many of them is a problem, that should be remedied by slaughter- this is your idea of a helpful discussion?
If you had an argument, I would say that for all of the examples of useless men, you could find examples of useless women if you looked for them, for all the examples of useful women, you could counter with examples of useful men. But the mere act of looking for these examples and trying to prove the point means that you've already lost the argument.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
So you're saying that sexism is ok now? Derogatory generalisations about members of the opposite sex and saying that too many of them is a problem, that should be remedied by slaughter- this is your idea of a helpful discussion?
Indeed. There is no point in engaging with the op. It's on the level with "are blondes stupid?" or "do Roma steal?"
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
So you're saying that sexism is ok now? Derogatory generalisations about members of the opposite sex and saying that too many of them is a problem, that should be remedied by slaughter- this is your idea of a helpful discussion?
Indeed. There is no point in engaging with the op. It's on the level with "are blondes stupid?" or "do Roma steal?"
The OP is worded provocatively for whatever reason. But if you read the actual links, you will find some real meat to the question that is worthy of discussion IMHO if we can just get past the initial shock value of the question.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But if you read the actual links, you will find some real meat to the question that is worthy of discussion IMHO if we can just get past the initial shock value of the question.
If that is true, it has failed to be reflected in the content of this thread AFAICS.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
But if you read the actual links, you will find some real meat to the question that is worthy of discussion IMHO if we can just get past the initial shock value of the question.
If that is true, it has failed to be reflected in the content of this thread AFAICS.
--Tom Clune
Well, I'm repeating myself here, so maybe I'm the crazy guy on the bus muttering to himself that no one wants to sit by. But I still believe the questions related to the links-- the move among many humanitarian aid organizations in the developing world to bypass men and focus specifically on empowering women-- while uncomfortable, are important. I think I identified a number of useful questions upthread related to those issues that I, for one (perhaps the only one) would appreciate discussing-- in part because they dovetail with my own work in east Africa.
[ 12. March 2012, 16:37: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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