|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Parenting our little darling monsters - legitimate & edifying measures of discipline
|
molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
|
Posted
I am sure I am not the only Shipmate who has moments when s/he has had to overcome the urge to plank their offspring (although for the overwhelming rest of the time I couldn't love them more).
Most parents, including the Molopatas, find it is necessary to use disciplinary measures at least sometimes to keep their children on the straight and narrow (...no, I don't mean the plank). There are different methods to achieve this which are considered more or less acceptable, such as smacks, being sent to ones room, withdrawal of privileges, "the talk", etc.
But when does a smack become a beating?
When does the room become solitary confinement?
When does the withdrawal of privileges become deprivation?
When does the talk become psychological terror?
Obviously there is no absolute yardstick for what measures are best, and what can be considered as an optimum depends largely on culture and the individual child. I would nevertheless be interested in an exchange on the intellectual considerations in which other shipmates have invested when approaching the challenge of discipling their child.
--------------------
... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
What you do depends on how old they are.
I stopped thrashing* my kids when they reached the age of reason (about 2 years old...)
Since then, we've employed the naughty corner/step a lot, as it's calming for the parents as well as the child, and still do use it to shame them since the Torlets are now 14 and 12.
Computer privileges being withdrawn are highly effective on the Boy, grounding for a specified time on the Girl, though we mix and match depending on the level of outrage.
Their rooms are far too interesting to ever consider sending them there for a punishment, though I might suggest they disappear for a bit while I calm down.
I'm a great fan of the extended lecture, with anecdotes and points of law. They hate it, because everything in art, science, history and popular culture is used to prove that I'm right and they're not.
But normally the threat of sanctions is sufficient to get the little oiks to toe the line. We don't consider ourselves particularly strict, but when I compare what we do to what other parents do, perhaps we are. Of course, sometimes it feels all so scrotum-clenchingly reasonable that I feel like I really ought to lose it completely just occasionally - but that's not really fair on the kids. Sanctions shouldn't depend on how I feel.
(light tap on the hand with a firm "no!")
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Having been subjected to violence myself as a child and young person, I rejected all forms of it. My wife had the model within her family, and we followed it. Our children are now grown.
We expected them to internalize standards for behaviour and display what we expected, with endless talking, and rare raised voices, for which we apologized. Yelling at a child can be a form of violence.
When children are young and not yet at the level of reasoning, this sort of approach can be very difficult, and usually involves removing the child or thing they're into from them. My one child talks of how I stood in a cold shower with her in my arms on an occasion of her tantrum. It didn't require a repeat. And it is/was important that I was in the shower, subjected to the same, fully clothed, as she was. It illustrated to her how serious it really was that she was out of control, and that I was also out of control with her. We both apologized after and made plans not to get to this again. Though of course we did in different forms over the years.
Thus, when the kids tried smoking, alcohol and smoking drugs, we had our very troubling discussions and the behaviour was never repeated. Frankly, we never actually instituted consequences ourselves. Anything that was an endorsed parental response was child suggested.
People have said to me, when I've discussed this, that "oh your children are <this and that>, it wouldn't work with my kids who are entirely different". To this I say, no. You're wrong. But you do set the tone very early with children, and if you want them to internalize the standards for behaviour, you have to start young and show this faithfully.
My children are no one's fool, and can defend themselves, but they similarly don't expect aggressiveness and label it as such when they see it in other adults. They have said that a consequence of how we raised them is that they feel their consciences are over developed, and they feel stronger senses of guilt than they perceive in others. But they are relaxed and totally lack the temper that I possess.
Thus, I have thought that the word discipline if it lacks the word "self-" in front of it is likely illegitimate. But then, I already know that this goes against received wisdom and the general grain of the majority of parents.
[ 24. April 2012, 20:31: Message edited by: no_prophet ]
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
As I recall, my mother's statement on this was that one should spank a child only if the child's offense endangered someone, and never for simply saying "No".
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
|
Posted
I think as children get older, enforcing the rules and discussing the rules need to be done on seperate occasions. Sanctions should be quick and simple - the child just needs to understand a) what is not acceptable, and b) that it is not acceptable on this occasion either. Tell them what they did, that's not on, and enforce a consistent punishment. Keep it quick and in proportion, accept no excuses, then let everyone move on.
Save talking about why the rules are what they are for when the adult is feeling calm, and the child is feeling cheerful and curious, rather than defensive, shamed or defiant - and you might all have an enlightening conversation.
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
There is a seductive narrative that badly behaved monsters just need a bit more harsh discipline and they'll be sorted out. The only reason we don't do it is squeamishness, and we are letting our children down.
However I'm often struck by the fact that children will get up to mischief despite facing a reasonable risk of being caught and calamitous penalties.
My own experience is that I started parenting as a very strict disciplinarian, thinking it important to take a consistent stand every time I was contradicted or challenged. I thought this represented first-rate parenting and would bear fruit in future.
On reflection I was wondered if I was being an arse and picking fights that didn't need to be picked.
I've become more relaxed, focus on the bigger issues, negotiate whenever possible and I think it's a better approach for all concerned.
I am possibly still an arse but for other reasons.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
|
Posted
quote:
I think as children get older
Just to clarify my previous post, I work with preschoolers, so by 'older' I mean 'getting into school age'. I can't talk about much older than that.
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
I should probably add: I think that children are in general better informed, better at anticipating others' feelings and better at understanding larger consequences that when I was young. I have immense hope in teenagers and like this age group pretty well the best. I miss my children being teens. Such idealism helps the jaded middle aged.
I also like young adults and school age and preschoolers and babies, and am available to baby sit, monitor and otherwise chaperone any group.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
My one child talks of how I stood in a cold shower with her in my arms on an occasion of her tantrum. It didn't require a repeat. And it is/was important that I was in the shower, subjected to the same, fully clothed, as she was. It illustrated to her how serious it really was that she was out of control, and that I was also out of control with her. We both apologized after and made plans not to get to this again. Though of course we did in different forms over the years.
I'm interested that you bring the Cold Shower up, because it was actually reflection on this "technique" that provoked my OP. We (the Molopatas) know a mother who practices the Cold Shower on her daughter from time to time (but the girl endures the shower on her own). We (from our position of infinite wisdom) have felt this to be beyond the pale and verging on abuse, without ever deciding exactly why. In your own case, I find that the fact that you joined your daughter in the shower mitigates my concerns, even though the physical impact on the child, I imagine, was rather similar. Perhaps the main difference is the psychological effect, in that you were not condemning your daughter, but stayed with her and endured what she was enduring.
--------------------
... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
But when does a smack become a beating?
At the first smack. There is simply no reason to smack a kid. All s/he learns from it is how to smack her/himself.
When does the room become solitary confinement?
If it becomes more than an agreed to time. Notice I said agreed to. I think the kids need to be a part of the decision making. More later.
When does the withdrawal of privileges become deprivation?
Isn't that what withdrawal of privileges mean, to deprive someone of what s/he values. As already mentioned, kids have different things they value. It does not hurt for them to learn that misbehaving has consequences meaning the deprivation of what they value temporarily.
When does the talk become psychological terror? If you are mad when you have the talk. It is best to say at this point you need to calm down, but there will be a time when kid and you will have to talk what happened through.
I am a former instructor of Systematic Training for Effective Parenting. See if you can find this program in your area. You will be surprised at how simple this is--and how effective.
Kids have to learn that certain misbehaviors will have certain consequences. Consequences are either natural (a kid does not dress warmly enough, he or see will be cold), and logical--consequences--which are agreed to by both parties in advance. (Kid has to know if s/he does not come home at the agreed time, the consequence will be not having computer privileges or cell phone for a set time the next day.) Kids as young as two can easily grasp this concept.
Wife and I raised four kids. For the most part we followed the STEP program with very good outcomes. We are now seeing them using the same approach with our grandchildren. It is good to know it is working for them too.
[ 24. April 2012, 21:51: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jigsaw
Shipmate
# 11433
|
Posted
Gramps and noprophet have outlined an ideal which some of us couldn't match, I think. I'd say keep it simple:
Pick your battles, as mdijon said. Does it really matter if one of them has been a bit clumsy or careless? Leave the heavy stuff for the serious issues.
Set rules that can be followed, where it's clear when they are transgressed, and where there's a suitable penalty for breaches. (Mind you, the only clear-cut example of this I ever found was "Always flush the loo after a poo")
We are not perfect. We can be irrational after a trying day. We shouldn't beat ourselves - or our kids - up if we can't follow all the good advice we've received. It's hard to do the psychological stuff as advocated by gramps and noprophet if you have a splitting headache or are dog-tired. If you're pretty fair and loving and consistent otherwise, I think even young children can withstand the odd lapse.
Smacking? More people have done it - once or twice - than will admit it. Those who have are often more upset at having resorted to it than the child is affected by receiving it.
--------------------
You are not alone in this.
Posts: 743 | From: Snorbens, UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Cold shower was not a technique. It was a father with a 2 hour tantrum with a 4 year old. Did not know what to do and thought of it. A one off. We both settled down following as I describe. Never again.
I believe that if you first hit or spank, then repeat, the child develops an understanding of how that is and then the parent has to increase the level. I hear of parents who have spanked, then removed TV and games, taken doors of bedrooms, grounded, taken away dessert. Or done all in combination. What then if undesired behaviour continues? medications? execution? Shudder!
I was spanked at home with a belt and then at school with long pieces of wood. All the time. We all were. After a while, you are left as a child with pretending something that is tolerable from experience is excruciating, and the person either hits less hard in response, or like a player taking a dive in football or hockey, punishes you all the more when they realize you're faking.
Such experiences at this intensity that I experienced may be rare today, but they still create rage, unimaginable rage. And hate. Intense hate. For the hitter. For your life. It is only a matter of degree.
[ 24. April 2012, 23:58: Message edited by: no_prophet ]
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
savedbyhim01
Apprentice
# 17035
|
Posted
Proverbs 13:24 ESV
Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
Hebrews 12:11
For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
Proverbs 23:13-15
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. My son, if your heart is wise, my heart too will be glad.
Proverbs 22:15
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.
These are a few of the verses in the Bible that support spanking. I think since God created us He knows the best method of child discipline, spanking. Kids have to know that doing wrong things (sinning) will bring consequences. Kids have to know that there is a limit to what they can do. Threatening doesn't work if the "threats" aren't fulfilled. Reasoning with kids only goes so far.
If my son disobeys, he knows he will get a spanking. He will sometimes even tell me "I need a spanking." I first tell him why he is getting a spanking. Then I give him a spanking, not in anger, but in love. Then I hug him and explain to him again why he got the spanking. I give him a kiss (he is two and a half), tell him I love him and then that is the end. In one minute he is happy and the event is behind him. Knowing there is a clear set of boundaries makes him feel secure.
--------------------
Matthew 28:18-20
My Inductive Bible Study Notes
Posts: 31 | From: China | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
Watching Son#2 and his wife handle our granddaughter's Terrible Twos...I find their restraint and humor quite remarkable; she's actually a very good child, but she has her moments of defiance and stubbornness. DiL is a child psychologist, so I'm trusting that she's using some professional expertise in minimizing the naughtiness.
From what we've seen/heard, Ruby gets a lot of praise for positive behaviors, is conditioned to treat her toddler chores like fun time ("Clean up/clean up/everybody everywhere/clean up/clean up/everybody do your share") is ignored during annoying but un-naughty behavior (usually with an additional explanation like, "Daddy will play with you AFTER you put your toys away." When she's rude or otherwise commits more serious bad behavior, both parents use The Voice, which isn't yelling and is delivered in a calm manner, but is very sharp, direct and no-nonsense. I haven't seen Ruby defy The Voice; by that time she seems to get that she'd better stop doing whatever it is that she is doing.
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
|
Posted
One thing I've learned is that every child is different and what worked for once child might not work at all for another. My daughter required huge effort and disciplining while my son was natually easy going from birth and has never had as much as a time out.
They are very different people with different strengths and weaknesses and have to be dealt with in different ways. I am skeptical of anyone who claims that there is a one size fits all philosophy.
--------------------
Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
I'm really having a hard time seeing someone cut-and-paste Scripture as justification for hitting a child. Seriously, Bronze Age justifications for striking a child are okay because "the Bible tells me so"?
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
The best way to handle a tantrum is to ignore it. Place the child in a safe place and then walk away. Generally they will calm down within minutes when they realize they are not getting any attention.
Once the child is calm, speak to him or her in a calm voice and process what had just happened.
There is more to discipline than beating a child with a rod. Discipline is about learning self control and responsible behavior. Believe you me, kids can learn responsibility when they understand there are positive and negative consequences to their choices.
BTW, do you know where the term "rule of thumb" comes from? Back in Merry Ole' England (about the time of Shakespeare, to be exact) it was permissible for a man to beat his wife with a cane that was no bigger in diameter than the man's thumb. We don't cane women any more--if one were to do so, he would be charged with assault. Why do people insist on using the rod or belt or paddle on a child?
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
'Fraid the "rule of thumb" bit is an urban legend, Gramps.
quote:
I'm a great fan of the extended lecture, with anecdotes and points of law. They hate it, because everything in art, science, history and popular culture is used to prove that I'm right and they're not.
I can't say that ever worked very well for me, though it did have the benefit of turning both of my kids into excellent debaters with a firm grasp of both logic and rhetoric, and an eagle eye for the weak spot in an argument... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I never believed in spanking, but in the early years I lost my temper a few times and did. Our first, the boy, was fairly easy anyway; my daughter was more strong-willed and fully capable of a two-hour tantrum. When she was eight I saw how things were escalating, and I took a vow that I would not spank, threaten spanking, or yell, ever again. I stuck to it (it wasn't always easy). Things got better from that point on. She grew (to our great surprise and relief) into a perfectly delightful teenager (well, almost perfect) and is now a delightful adult.
While there is reasonable controversy about whether a moderate degree of corporal punishment is actually harmful, there is really no good case to be made that it is more effective than other approaches--and a good deal of evidence that it is less effective.
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
bib
Shipmate
# 13074
|
Posted
Not all children respond in the same way to discipline. I could talk to and reason with my daughters, but at times I had to smack or grab my son to get his attention and for his own safety. When you see a child about to do something really dangerous (eg poking scissors into the power point), it is pointless to say 'now don't do that darling.' My son responded better to physical intervention (he has ADHD) until about the age of 5 when he gradually learnt to listen to instructions.
I know tantrums are best dealt with by putting the child in a safe place and walking away, but that isn't possible in the supermarket - kids seem to save tantrums for the supermarket!
--------------------
"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I'm really having a hard time seeing someone cut-and-paste Scripture as justification for hitting a child. Seriously, Bronze Age justifications for striking a child are okay because "the Bible tells me so"?
If savedbyhim01 takes as much notice of the rest of scripture, I don't think there's a serious problem. People find it difficult to reconcile verses that, on the face of it, say different things. That's why the Word is important, not the words.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
I'm interested that you bring the Cold Shower up, because it was actually reflection on this "technique" that provoked my OP. We (the Molopatas) know a mother who practices the Cold Shower on her daughter from time to time (but the girl endures the shower on her own). We (from our position of infinite wisdom) have felt this to be beyond the pale and verging on abuse... Perhaps the main difference is the psychological effect, in that you were not condemning your daughter, but stayed with her and endured what she was enduring.
I haven't heard of this before as a "technique" and my immediate reaction is like yours. I think the psychological effect is everything. One might endure similar pain as a result of an accident or a beating from a parent, but the effect on the child will be totally different.
Forced cold showers practised deliberately sounds like the stuff of public-school-bullying to me, or the sort of thing George Bush might have called an "enhanced interrogation technique". It is a very unpleasant physical punishment.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
quote:
I'm a great fan of the extended lecture, with anecdotes and points of law. They hate it, because everything in art, science, history and popular culture is used to prove that I'm right and they're not.
I can't say that ever worked very well for me, though it did have the benefit of turning both of my kids into excellent debaters with a firm grasp of both logic and rhetoric, and an eagle eye for the weak spot in an argument...
Mine, too. Which is a good thing. If they can rationalise their own behaviour before the event, they're much less likely to do something stupid.
Of course, I have one pre-teen and one teenager, and that's still a looooooooooong way off. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
There is more to discipline than beating a child with a rod. Discipline is about learning self control and responsible behavior. Believe you me, kids can learn responsibility when they understand there are positive and negative consequences to their choices.
When living in Africa we found out that many people were appalled by the idea of locking up a child in a confined space because of some wrongdoing (and in our area most families didn't really have the confined space to do it any way). They were equally appalled by the idea of spanking with a bear hand. They did however occasionally use sticks. The use of the stick somehow removed the immediacy of the pain inflicted on the child by the adult. Rather, it was the stick that administered the pain and only by proxy the adult. That difference may sound like hairsplitting to us, and it is by no means one I would subscribe to, but at a socio-psychological level, it's implications are at least worth considering.
--------------------
... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
|
Posted
quote:
Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.
My problem with this verse is that it is demonstrably untrue, at least in our society. Many children depart from the way they were raised despite the best efforts of their parents. I'm sure we all know devout Christian parents whose offspring grew up to be complete agnostics.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Molopata The Rebel:
They were equally appalled by the idea of spanking with a bear hand.
As am I. It sounds cruel and unusual. Especially if you were to use, say, a grizzly's paw.
But seriously I also notice that discipline of children is much harsher in Africa. Particularly Nigeria, I notice.
And some of the worst behaved, least well adjusted children I've come across have been Nigerian with incredibly disciplinarian fathers.
Locking up doesn't sound great to me either I must say. It is one thing telling a child that they have to sit still somewhere or have to remain in a room for a given period of time, but actually locking the door seems a bit too much to me. (And might even be dangerous).
Sitting alone worked briefly for me, but one of my children hated it so much I could see it was too distressing and too harsh for them. On the other hand, my other child didn't seem to mind it at all and it was barely a deterrent.
Withdrawing treats, giving fines and confiscating property seems to work pretty well for both of them. Careful explanation of the reason for the punishment seems synergistic in producing long-term outcome. (By long-term I mean any change in behaviour lasting into the next day. Maybe my bar is too low).
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
Truly, I only see using physical force to discipline a child a necessity if s/he's about to do something dangerous -- i.e., slapping a hand away from a hot burner or grabbing the arm of a child about to dart into traffic in a way that sends the message that this is serious.
During our granddaughter's recent visit with us, the only time we engaged in any hands-on discipline, if that is the right word, was when she was being contrarian about sitting on the potty, after informing us that she needed to use it (at this stage she generally needs a favorite book and about 5 minutes to, erm, get in the right mindset for the deed in question), and when she tried to run away I finally scooped her up and took her, loudly protesting, to the bathroom and sat her down. (And it was a good thing I did.)
Whenever I hear discussions about corporal punishment I always think about the kid in our elementary and middle school who received the most corporal punishment of all -- this back in the day when teachers were allowed to use wooden paddles. This kid got a licking at least once a week, right up to junior high school. He also came from a home (I rode the school bus with him and his many siblings and thus learned about their home life from their conversations) where striking children was the norm.
He and his brother wound up in a federal pen.
Yeah; all that non-sparing the rod from multiple adult authority figures really worked for them.
By means of contrast: In my home, even though my dad came from a family where the children where regularly struck by their parents (in a way that I think nowadays would have sent my grandparents to jail. And in my grandmother's family, her brother had been beaten so severely by their father that it damaged him physically and mentally for the rest of his life)-- my father only spanked me twice that any of us could remember. The first time was when I was a tot, when I refused to eat mashed potatoes, he spanked me, I ate them under duress and then promptly threw them up all over him...no more corporal punishment until several years later when I defied his command not to change the TV channel; that incident is the only one I personally remember. And in retrospect I think it was highly inappropriate for such a trivial thing; I think he just lost his self-control because he'd had a bad day. And I think he was somewhat chagrined to have done it, because it never happened again.
For me The Parental Voice was quite enough to keep me in line. I hated The Voice and tried to avoid it at all costs.
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
|
Posted
This thread has left me puzzled, as it sent me thinking to my own up-bringing. My parents only rarely hit me, and I presume only when I was being really quite out of control.
However - and maybe this is a generational thing, I'm, say, under 35 - whilst I can justify their actions entirely, and I'd almost certainly do the same, there's something inside me which says, very clearly, very forcefully, that when ANYONE hits you, whatever the reason, for whatever purpose, you hit them back harder and if needed, with a weapon.
I'm not sure where it comes from (The Fall, maybe) but it's definitely there.
AV
[ 25. April 2012, 16:16: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
I think it is the "Fall", yes (what Walter Wink would call "the myth of redemptive violence"). But it's also aggravated by early training. When we spank our kids, we teach them that that is an acceptable way to resolve conflict. That it is acceptable for people who are bigger and more powerful to leverage that advantage violently, to enforce their will thru, well, force.
The rub coming about 14-16 yrs later when many of us wake up to see that our little darlings are no longer little, and in fact are much bigger than we are (mine tops me by a good 6 inches, and is still growing). At that point you will have done well to have taught some other sorts of early lessons about the meaning of family, of community, of how we resolve differences. Some other meaning of "biblical discipline". Otherwise, God help us-- literally.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Val Kyrie
Apprentice
# 17079
|
Posted
I smacked my kids (three boys, now aged 31, 28 and 16) on occasion - but only after counting to three, thus allowing them time to change what they were doing. By using The Voice when counting and by only using this technique sparingly (and when I MEANT it), I was able to get to the position where just getting to two was normally enough. Sometimes a VERY defiant son would say "two" for me... And I'd thank him for helping me to hurry towards the point when I could give him a bloody good hiding. Invariably this would reslut in the child giving up and no smack being needed! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I also pointed out naughty kids around us (in restaurants etc.) and congratulated my sons on being better behaved than them. I'd whisper that those children were unlucky, because their parents were "clearly morons". I would stress to my kids quite often that having a mother capable of preparing them to survive in polite society (and stay out of prison) was a wonderful privilege that God had given them. My, how they laughed.
Bringing up three boys (part of the time as a single parent) wasn't easy but humour really helped. And loads of love. And sticker charts and positive reinforcement... And both listening and talking.
Posts: 27 | From: Up North | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
When we spank our kids, we teach them that that is an acceptable way to resolve conflict. That it is acceptable for people who are bigger and more powerful to leverage that advantage violently, to enforce their will thru, well, force.
Oh, please. The silly notion that all forms of corporal punishment are equivalent to bullying violence is just idiotic. Children are quite able to make moral distinctions between being punished for doing wrong and being bullied for no apparent reason. They are also clever enough to recognize parental stupidity when they find it -- if you can't figure out the difference between punishment and terrorism, don't expect your kids to give you a clue.
My wife was adamantly opposed to any form of physical punishment, and would yell for hours in a pointless argument with a youngster. Kids love to wind up adults, and if you are willing to play that game, they will oblige. I would come home to my wife a complete wreck, demanding that I had to discipline the kids for a mess of her own making more times than I care to remember.
Pretending that this kind of nonsense is preferable to drawing a clear line and enforcing it with spanking if necessary just doesn't make any sense to me at all. I spanked my kids two or three times in their entire childhood. But that was enough to establish that I was serious about being obeyed, and they did obey me. My wife conveyed the message that all pronouncements from her were infinitely negotiable, and they received her pronouncements as such.
My kids are grown and out of the house now. I don't know whether a different approach would have been better or worse, but I know that I approached the task of parenting with a serious commitment to doing the best I could to raise them. I have no regrets in having resorted to spanking on rare occasions, and I don't believe that it was any more damaging to their development than it was to mine when my parents spanked me as a boy.
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Child Protective Services here will consider corporal punishment as a problem when they review families. Technically spanking a child is not illegal in Canada subject to court decisions which have said so, but hitting a child with any form of object and somewhere not a spanking area might be grounds for criminal charges. Child Protection has the authority to tell parents they may not strike a child in any way and proceed via the child protection legislation. So effectively outlawing it for a particular family at minimum.
Not resorting to physical violence does not mean endless talking nor yelling. Didn't do either of these. I also have never hit our dogs.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
|
Posted
The book Nurtureshock (which examines recent findings in child psychology) says that corporal punishment is most damaging when it's used in communities where it's uncommon. That is, if most of a child's friends get spanked occasionally, the child doesn't think much about it- spankings just seem normal.
But in cultures where corporal punishment is becoming rare (such as among college-educated Americans), a child who is spanked assumes he must be REALLY a bad kid to have gotten such a harsh punishment. So it has a much more damaging effect on his attitude and self-worth.
I was spanked (rarely and not hard) as a child and don't think it did me any harm. I don't remember it being any more painful or humiliating than any other punishment. But I am hoping to avoid spanking my son (age 2 1/2). So far we've had the best luck with timeouts and taking away toys. We're using 1-2-3 Magic and it really does work!
There are plenty of unpleasant consequences to lay on a kid without hitting him. Threatening a bubble-less bath or a story-less bedtime if I reach the count of three usually brings my son right into line. (And if not, I get a break from those $%^^&*@#&$% Clifford books!)
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
When we spank our kids, we teach them that that is an acceptable way to resolve conflict.
I was spanked by my father. Not all that often or all that hard, but it never occurred to me to internalize that as a lesson in domination and violence, and I certainly don't have a problem with temper or violence now. (Neither did my father - he just belongs to a culture that thinks that is a reasonable way of bringing up children).
I don't believe in spanking now, but I think the caricature that spanking teaches children to be violent is just as simplistic and polarizing as the caricature that suggests not spanking will lead to criminal adolescents.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Not resorting to physical violence does not mean endless talking nor yelling. Didn't do either of these.
If it worked for you with your kids, more power to you. But assuming that you found the formula that all parents should use and they will get similar results is not just arrogant, it is clearly wrong. My two kids were different enough that they needed very different styles of parenting. I rather suspect that the range of kids is even more diverse than that.
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
I won't agree that violence is reasonable. Under any circumstances. If we're simply talking individual differences between children such that different things in terms of parenting are required, then it is a strawman to argue.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Not resorting to physical violence does not mean endless talking nor yelling. Didn't do either of these.
If it worked for you with your kids, more power to you. But assuming that you found the formula that all parents should use and they will get similar results is not just arrogant, it is clearly wrong.
I don't see where s/he did that though. I only see np saying that there are enough methods that no one needs to use those two methods.
For myself, I am another who was spanked, am not scarred by it, but don't do it with my child. On some level I think I just can't accept the idea of anyone doing violence to her, including myself.
--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
When we spank our kids, we teach them that that is an acceptable way to resolve conflict.
I was spanked by my father. Not all that often or all that hard, but it never occurred to me to internalize that as a lesson in domination and violence, and I certainly don't have a problem with temper or violence now. (Neither did my father - he just belongs to a culture that thinks that is a reasonable way of bringing up children).
I don't believe in spanking now, but I think the caricature that spanking teaches children to be violent is just as simplistic and polarizing as the caricature that suggests not spanking will lead to criminal adolescents.
I would probably agree with that. Yet I think there are also implicit messages that we teach that are not as conscious as what you're suggesting. Yes, no one is going to say, "my parents spanked me and thus I know that it's always right to win an argument thru force". But there are all sorts of ways that our society gives credence to that belief (again, read Wink's powers that be for an excellent exploration of this). Our urge to resolve problems with our youngsters is both a symptom and a cause (albeit certainly not the most significant one) of our underlying belief in the myth of redemptive violence.
--------------------
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
I utterly hate and despise the method of counting to three or five or whatever when children are misbehaving. I hate it with the flaming heat of a thousand suns.
Why?
Glad you asked.
Because it means that, without fail, without exception, I see children merrily doing whatever it is that mommy (and often enough daddy) is not happy with. They're running around the grocery store, getting in the way of shoppers and their carts, playing with the store displays, and mommy is over there counting.
"Come on, darling. One, two... Come on, sweetie, come back over here before Mommy gets to three! One, two..."
The kid knows bloody well s/he doesn't have to do anything until the penultimate number is reached, and often enough not even then.
Whatever method of discipline you choose, please, please, please be consistent with whatever method of discipline you choose. When you say "Come here", mean it. Kids are smart enough to figure out very quickly when you're being inconsistent, and they will take advantage of that.
I do not mean that you cannot have grace; nor do I mean that you should pick on every bad behavior. But if you've decided that a certain behavior is worth your time in correcting, then do it every time. My beef with the counting method is that I have never, ever, not once seen it applied with consistency.
And on the subject of children running wild in the grocery store (and other public places, for that matter):
I've seen children running wild in the grocery store from the viewpoint of a watchful older brother and from the viewpoint of the poor sod who had to clean up the mess on aisle three. Children can certainly learn not to touch everything they see. I promise it will not stunt their growth, or warp them, or make them less inquisitive and less open to learning. It will teach them to respect others' property and that making messes in the grocery store, even accidentally, isn't a Good Idea. Keeping them near you will hopefully keep them safe from those electric carts that some people use so recklessly*. It will keep me from nailing them with my shopping cart as I round the corner, unable to see that precious little kid who isn't paying attention to his/her surroundings.
I really do want children to have fun, to be inquisitive, to be excited by learning. But I also want children to be safe, to be considerate, and to be polite.
Consider the fact that, when I was working for one of the largest retail stores in the world, I regularly came across children who were several aisles away from their parents. How easy would it be for me to grab the child and run? How easy would it be for me to be out the door and into a waiting car before the parents even knew what was happening?
We once got a Code Adam for a missing child. In those cases, the child is presumed kidnapped, and management runs to cover the doors. The description of the kid goes out across the PA system, and all associates immediately drop what they're doing to help search for the child. The store manager calls law enforcement, and in the town where my store was located, they always responded with lights and siren. In this case, the mother was hysterical -- utterly beside herself to the point that she could barely give a description of the missing child.
It turned out she wasn't paying a bit of attention to her daughter, and the girl was found beneath a rack of shirts in the juniors clothing area. One of the loss prevention associates later went back over the security camera footage and discovered she'd been hiding for about 20 minutes before the mother even noticed. Obviously, this wouldn't have happened had she kept an eye on her daughter. Yes, kids can and do slip away occasionally, but being a parent means having the responsibility to make sure that you know where your children are when in public.
I realize, upon re-reading this, that it sounds a touch more hellish than I meant, and I don't mean to offend.
What I'm driving at is simply this: Be consistent. Be considerate. Be aware. What makes me dislike children is rude and inconsiderate behavior. And it torches me because I know that I mastered the art of being considerate and polite pretty early on, and so did all my siblings. We're average intelligence; I'm confident that others can easily do the same.
And if you're one of the few parents who actually does the counting thing AND is consistent with it AND you have well-behaved children as a result, then I lift a pint in salute, and I'll buy you one if ever we meet.
And of course, the obligatory: YMMV.
____
*A friend had several bones in his foot broken by one of those things when the driver ran over him. He wasn't in the way (actually, he was out of her path and trying to move even further away), and he was the only other person on the aisle. She didn't stop to see if he was ok, but said something nasty about him being in her way. Imagine if that was your child who wasn't listening to you at that moment. Seriously, that could be a wicked injury. I highly doubt counting to three would be an effective method there, especially if you routinely don't follow through.
[ 26. April 2012, 02:06: Message edited by: Padre Joshua ]
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
The counting game is ineffective. Yelling (shouting) does not help. Spanking is counterproductive. In all three cases if a parent resorts to them it means they have lost control.
Using a stern, no nonsense voice as the above poster relates works very well.
Code Adam--I know where you worked. We had several of them when I worked for the same company too, and as you said it was usually because the kid was hiding somewhere. In one case the child was to stay with mother as father was going somewhere else, but kid followed father and there was no communication between mother and father.
Only once one of my kids acted up in a store. I simply and calmly removed him from the store and took him home. The associates had to restock my basket, but I think removing the kid from the store was more important than inconveniencing a clerk.
I also agree one has to be consistent with whatever discipline one chooses to follow. To tell a kid their privileges will be revoked and then not following through makes you no more than a paper tiger.
I am also not in favor of grounding for more than a night--to make it longer only breeds resentments. But if we grounded someone, we always made sure that the kid would have to complete a task before privileges were restored. Cleaning up their room was always a good one. But with the spread of cell phones and the internet (which we did not have to deal with until the kids were in their mid teens) probably adds a new wrinkle to that. I will have to ask my daughter how she deals with that with granddaugher next time I see her.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
The counting game is ineffective. Yelling (shouting) does not help. Spanking is counterproductive.
Again I think this is too simplistic. Counting clearly works fine for some people. Getting a warning of consequences before consequences are visited can be a useful strategy, and might allow a child to make a more thoughtful decision, and counting does that.
Some children do seem to respond to raised voices, which I have seen used by parents who don't seem "out of control" and spanking does sometimes achieve a useful change in behaviour. Simply stating that all these are counter-productive doesn't seem to advance a debate.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Val Kyrie
Apprentice
# 17079
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Padre Joshua:
And if you're one of the few parents who actually does the counting thing AND is consistent with it AND you have well-behaved children as a result, then I lift a pint in salute, and I'll buy you one if ever we meet.
It worked for me (us) or I wouldn't have kept doing it! But I know what you mean about parents who whine at their children and have no intention of following their threats up.
When I went shopping I got my boys to help and tried to make it a game. Obviously my parenting hasn't always been perfect but I WILL say that my kids have been VERY good in public, and in other people's homes. In our house they were a bit more cheeky.
Just to add, in case anyone cares - When my oldest two (a three year gap) were fighting, I resolved NOT to intervene but to tell them they had to sort it out between themselves. They soon stopped fighting, since it earned them no attention from me. They became SO close (and adore their little brother too) that I'd recommend keeping your nose out to anybody whose children squabble.
Posts: 27 | From: Up North | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
|
Posted
Well, perhaps counting means something to some kids, but I doubt it. I think one verbal warning is enough, and then some kind of action should ensue if the request is blatantly defied.
The difficultly of taking action is that kids often wait until you are in a public place, or with friends before they begin to act up. They know you will be embarrassed and uncomfortable and are therefore more likely to give in, in order to keep the peace. How do you send a two year old who is having a tantrum in the supermarket to the naughty corner? You can't.
One of my grandchildren was a master at this tactic and it drove his mother crazy. He only ever tried it on me once in public. On being denied the objects of his desire at the store, he threw himself on the ground kicking and screaming. I simply picked him up by the ankles and held him upside down (facing away from me until he stopped swinging his fists). I explained calmly that when he stopped the tantrum, he would be put down again.
He quickly stopped, and we walked out of the store hand in hand. I knew he was shocked by what had happened, so I asked if he liked what I had done. He replied "No!" I explained that I didn't like his behaviour either, and we made a bargain to not make each other so uncomfortable in future.
He never did this again in public, though he tried it a couple of times at home, particularly in front of his mother. I simply employed the same method, and got the same result. He was cured of tantrums very quickly and his mother was amazed.
Yes, I employed the advantage of my size, and perhaps some would argue that this constitutes abuse, or bullying into submission. However, I believe that what the child was trying to do was beyond reason. I get very tired of listening to parents attempting to reason with children who are enjoying humiliating them, blackmailing them and abusing them publicly. SOMEONE has to be in control - and it might as well be the parent.
--------------------
Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
birdie
fowl
# 2173
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Using a stern, no nonsense voice as the above poster relates works very well.
Except, of course, when it doesn't.
I have A Voice, and A Look, which can quell a Sunday School class or other group of children not related to me at twenty paces. My own children generally take absolutely no notice of it whatever.
I'm not going to say we never smack, but I can't remember the last time I did it. I try really hard not to shout, but it certainly does happen. We are - in general - calm, consistent and use consistent consequences to bad behaviour, and I believe these are better and more effective forms of discipline than smacking or shouting, but it simply isn't true to say that The Voice always works well and it's the answer to our parenting challenges.
ETA: Counting works well for us.
[ 26. April 2012, 08:48: Message edited by: birdie ]
--------------------
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
PerkyEars
slightly distracted
# 9577
|
Posted
quote:
My wife was adamantly opposed to any form of physical punishment, and would yell for hours in a pointless argument with a youngster.
The latter doesn't follow from the former.
I have an aquaintance who is hopeless at setting boundaries for her kids, and seems to spend all her day alternating between frazzled, unpleasant nagging, and pronouncements that she 'can't' get them to do this or that and it's unrealistic for others to expect her to. When I've tried to gently suggest that what you need to do is set boundaries, i.e. decide what behaviour is unnacceptable and make it clear, with followed through consequences for disobedience, she replies with "so, you think I should beat them then?" ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:
The book Nurtureshock (which examines recent findings in child psychology) says that corporal punishment is most damaging when it's used in communities where it's uncommon. That is, if most of a child's friends get spanked occasionally, the child doesn't think much about it- spankings just seem normal.
This doesn't surprise me at all. Nasty parents always seem to like to go just that few steps beyond what is acceptable. Perhaps it's because they are usually scapegoaters who tell themselves that their kids are particularly bad and that they, the parents have it so hard.
The debate on whether children should be smacked or not is a massive red herring I think. It doesn't matter whether or not you smack - as long as discipline is a) carefully though through, b) done for the sake of the child, not the adult, c) proportunate to cultural norms (although these should always be up for question), d) consistent, e) appropriate to the child as an individual (whilst keeping consistency across siblings). These things are not easy to acheive, and deciding on the form of the punishment is only one part of what a parent should consider. Condeming another parent for simply using another form of punishment is an easy way to feel holier than thou, but maybe it's better to point the finger at those who, whatever they use, do not reguarly think it though or ever question themselves.
Let's also not forget that you can discipline children until you are blue in the face, but it's a waste of time without positive teaching and role modeling that teaches them what they SHOULD do.
Posts: 532 | From: Bristol | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Val Kyrie:
...
Just to add, in case anyone cares - When my oldest two (a three year gap) were fighting, I resolved NOT to intervene but to tell them they had to sort it out between themselves. They soon stopped fighting, since it earned them no attention from me. They became SO close (and adore their little brother too) that I'd recommend keeping your nose out to anybody whose children squabble.
Up to what point? I find it hard not to intervene, especially when I know one of them (boys 4 and 7) has hit the other.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
I found that if I smacked occasionally early on (as part of a range of corrections) then I didn't need to smack as they got older. That, to me is a lot less scary than the families who over-indulge their little children and then start smacking them when they are older and already out of control. It was the way I was brought up too, and seemed to work for my own family.
But YMMV, we are all different. And we live in different times now, when what was previously accepted wisdom is now unacceptable.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by birdie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Using a stern, no nonsense voice as the above poster relates works very well.
Except, of course, when it doesn't.
I have A Voice, and A Look, which can quell a Sunday School class or other group of children not related to me at twenty paces. My own children generally take absolutely no notice of it whatever.
I'm not going to say we never smack, but I can't remember the last time I did it. I try really hard not to shout, but it certainly does happen. We are - in general - calm, consistent and use consistent consequences to bad behaviour, and I believe these are better and more effective forms of discipline than smacking or shouting, but it simply isn't true to say that The Voice always works well and it's the answer to our parenting challenges.
ETA: Counting works well for us.
I'm very suspicious of anyone who says 'do this and it will work'. Up to a point, Lord Copper. It will work -- except when it doesn't, and every method will fail sometimes.
I've no claim to be an expert parent, or even a very good one. I do my best to model good behaviour consistently (but sometimes I lose my temper). I don't smack (but I have in the past). I don't count (though I tried it). I try not to shout (but I'm only human).
One of my children responds, generally, to the accepted range of techniques for discipline. My other child has Asperger Syndrome, and doesn't: violence and aggression return on a cyclical basis, he doesn't instinctively copy our behaviour, sanctions are very tricky and often counter-productive.
We have resorted to all sorts of methods that many people might find morally repugnant. For instance, we ended one phase of violence by paying him a pound for every day in which he did not hurt his brother. It really worked, the violence stopped until the next time. We are resigned to doing everything over and over again and seeing tiny improvements over years.
So you are blessed if you have children who are able to learn the lessons that you need to teach them. But it isn't necessarily because you have got a great way of doing this that everyone else can learn from.
--------------------
Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/
Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Val Kyrie
Apprentice
# 17079
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
Up to what point? I find it hard not to intervene, especially when I know one of them (boys 4 and 7) has hit the other.
It IS really hard not to get involved but I read about the technique in a book and found it very effective at stopping the rows.
Quite often, when kids fight, we do NOT really know who started it, or why. Often the little brother is annoying the big brother, the big brother does something back, the little one screams blue murder and the parent runs in saying "Don't hurt your little brother!"... Which is very unfair and encourages the behaviour in BOTH of them. Little one knows he can get away with it, big one is frustrated and can't WAIT to get his own back. if the parent had ignored them, justice, although s little rough, would have prevailed.
Obviously a big brother constantly handing out unprovoked beatings to a little one is different but that is unusual (to my mind) and would probably be done to get attention from a parent anyway, you know?
You can't let kids hit each other with bricks (there are limits) but you can ignore the usual pushing, screaming, grabbing and so on. Whether they know it or not, they're doing it mostly for the reward of you looking up from your book, or running in to the room. If I WAS in the room and they tried that, I walked out in silence. Haha!
when I left my kids to it (I explained that it was up to them to learn to get along) it took three days or so for them to stop squabbling/fighting. At one point my oldest (who coincidentally was about 7 at the time) said "You don't love us! you're not stopping us!" and got really angry when I replied that I trusted them to deal with their arguments. It was a bit funny to see them agreeing that I was a bad mother.
But, like I said, they got over it and shared and are VERY close to this day.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posts: 27 | From: Up North | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
WhyNotSmile
Shipmate
# 14126
|
Posted
I'm not a parent, but as a child, the most frustrating type of discipline was inconsistency. I was sometimes (rarely) smacked, or generally told off (I was reasonably well behaved, and being told off was horrifying enough to make me behave). But I really hated when I was doing something which I'd done before, but suddenly got told off for it.
If I have children, I think that's the thing I'll try to do most - be consistent in terms of what gets punished, and follow through on punishments.
As others have said, I think the actual method of punishment probably depends a bit on the child's temperament. Being sent to sit in a corner alone would have been bliss for me, for example; I didn't much care for being smacked, but it wasn't the end of the world; I hated getting a lecture and would do anything to avoid it.
--------------------
Come visit:
http://why-not-smile.blogspot.com
- you're always glad you came
Posts: 528 | From: Belfast | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
