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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Saved from what (or who?)
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Ok, Johnny S, thanks for clarifying.
I can see the point you're making, but equally I can see Freddy's and Fr Gregory's. I think the progressive revelation thing is an important point he's raised.
As usual, I'm cursed with the ability to see both sides ...
Perhaps it's a problem with the English language? Does the Greek and the Hebrew have a word for God's wrath - or righteous indignation of whatever we might call it - that doesn't have the connotations of pique and personal grudge bearing etc that the term 'anger' tends to have in English?
'In your anger do not sin ...' as it were.
I am sure it is possible for God to be 'angry' in some way without being subject to human passions. There seems to be a middle way here ... somewhere ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm happy to leave the whole 'election'/'effectual calling' and so on and so forth as something of a divine mystery. It might sound like a cop-out but find both the full-on Arminian approach (articulated here by Mudfrog) ...
Erm, I'm not a 'full-on Arminian'. I'm a Wesleyan.
Unlike pure Arminians, we believe in total depravity - an inability to choose without grace being applied 'preveniently.'
I would also add to that a slice of 'CS Lewis-ism'.
There is a lot more mercy involved than some would say. I could never say 'turn or burn.' But I'm definately not a universalist.
One has to have faith in Christ - or, according to Lewis, faith in one's god in the absence of the truth about Christ.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok, Johnny S, thanks for clarifying.
I can see the point you're making, but equally I can see Freddy's and Fr Gregory's. I think the progressive revelation thing is an important point he's raised.
As usual, I'm cursed with the ability to see both sides ...
Perhaps it's a problem with the English language? Does the Greek and the Hebrew have a word for God's wrath - or righteous indignation of whatever we might call it - that doesn't have the connotations of pique and personal grudge bearing etc that the term 'anger' tends to have in English?
'In your anger do not sin ...' as it were.
I am sure it is possible for God to be 'angry' in some way without being subject to human passions. There seems to be a middle way here ... somewhere ...
God's wrath is a constant attitude, not a flare up of emotion that is in response to something we've done. Anyway, the logical conclusion to God having no wrath is that kind of Greek stuff where the gods have no emotions, no feelings - what's the term? I can't think of it.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ok - thanks for clarifying, Mudfrog. I am pleased to stand corrected.
I still wonder about the whole mental jostling and so on that goes on within Western Christianity (particularly in its Protestant form) between election/'pre-venient' grace and so on ...
I just wonder how necessary it all is.
Of course, the Orthodox don't 'need' it in their schema as they don't have the same understanding of Original Sin (nor did/do the Jews come to that) so the whole edifice is a complete chimera from their point-of-view, a complete irrelevance.
That doesn't mean that they don't believe that we need God's grace in order to be saved, though.
They'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that their position is not commensurate with the Wesleyan one but closer to it than either full-on Arminianism or full-on Calvinism - neither of which seem 'satisfactory' to me ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sorry to cross-post ...
Yes, I know the term you mean, but can't think of it either. The Orthodox view of God does strike me as similar to that - the Almighty is rather immutable and rather dispassionate, certainly not given to 'passions' - but, unlike with the Greek pantheon, he is very personal.
There is certainly a 'dispassion' about much Orthodox worship - a lack of sentimentality that some of us Westerners raised on Wesleyanism or Welsh 'hwyl' might find dispiritingly distant at first ...
But I wouldn't say there was no warmth there. It's more subtle and understated.
Comparisons are onerous (and odourous ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ) but some RC practices seem quite 'sensual' compared to the Orthodox - even though they're essentially doing the same thing.
That said, the Russians seem a lot more sentimental (and indeed more 'Welsh'!) than the rest of the Orthodox I've come across ...
There's a balance of course. Give me a Byzantine icon any day of the week rather than a High Baroque or Mannerist painting or sculpture.
Which doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a decent Wesleyan hymn, a sentimental, minor-key Welsh hymn tune or even a jaunty Salvation Army medley ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The truth is that Jesus has indeed made atonement for the whole world.
The truth is that none need perish because of that.
The truth is that people need to 'believe in him' in order to access that atonement that is theirs already.
That's only part of the biblical truth.
You have forgotten the main point of the gospels: the kingdom of God.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The truth is that Jesus has indeed made atonement for the whole world.
The truth is that none need perish because of that.
The truth is that people need to 'believe in him' in order to access that atonement that is theirs already.
That's only part of the biblical truth.
You have forgotten the main point of the gospels: the kingdom of God.
No I haven't - kingdom of God = eternal life = life in all its fullness = life in his name, etc
We don't just believe in 'going to heaven when you die, we believe in the kingdom here and now which death is powerless to destroy, and this kingdom is inherited by those who believe in Christ.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
We don't just believe in 'going to heaven when you die,
Good to hear. But I'm afraid your short kerygma (taken mainly from Paul with a little bit of John) does rather give that impression.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
we believe in the kingdom here and now which death is powerless to destroy, and this kingdom is inherited by those who believe in Christ.
"Inherited" is another odd term. It's like something that happens after you die.
The kingdom is "inherited" by those that believe in him and follow his commandments.
Therefore, the doing matters too.
Which, of course, is a big part of the kerygma of the Gospels.
And of course, you can do God's will and not be aware of it.
But God shows no partiality.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Anyway, the logical conclusion to God having no wrath is that kind of Greek stuff where the gods have no emotions, no feelings - what's the term? I can't think of it.
I think the term is impassibility.
But I don't think that this is the logical conclusion. We can say that God has only love, and its attendant emotions such as concern and mercy.
There are a number of reasons why wrath is inconsistent with the true nature of God. One is that since He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, nothing can happen outside of His permission.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
We don't just believe in 'going to heaven when you die,
Good to hear. But I'm afraid your short kerygma (taken mainly from Paul with a little bit of John) does rather give that impression.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
we believe in the kingdom here and now which death is powerless to destroy, and this kingdom is inherited by those who believe in Christ.
"Inherited" is another odd term. It's like something that happens after you die.
The kingdom is "inherited" by those that believe in him and follow his commandments.
Therefore, the doing matters too.
Which, of course, is a big part of the kerygma of the Gospels.
And of course, you can do God's will and not be aware of it.
But God shows no partiality.
No argument from me there at all ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Salvation Army doctrine states:
quote:
We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has by his suffering and death made an atonement for the whole world so that whosoever will may be saved.
We believe that repentance toward God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, and regeneration by the Holy Spirit, are necessary to salvation.
We believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ
Faith must be expressed by actions and words. It is not enough just to believe.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Anyway, the logical conclusion to God having no wrath is that kind of Greek stuff where the gods have no emotions, no feelings - what's the term? I can't think of it.
I think the term is impassibility.
But I don't think that this is the logical conclusion. We can say that God has only love, and its attendant emotions such as concern and mercy.
There are a number of reasons why wrath is inconsistent with the true nature of God. One is that since He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, nothing can happen outside of His permission.
Considered, measured and consistent wrath is a part of love. Love for all he has made means he cannot simply love that which is evil, destructive, vile and rebellious. When Jesus spoke about a millstone being tied round the neck of someone who caused a 'little one' to sin, that is wrath that comes from his love for the little ones.
I don't believe a god can be described as loving if he has no hatred of sin and despair.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Who's heard Mudfrog ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Who's heard Mudfrog ?
who's heard? Do you mean, heard the gospel?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I don't believe a god can be described as loving if he has no hatred of sin and despair.
Sin and despair are indeed opposed to God, and certainly no person can be described as loving who does not hate sin and despair.
God also continually works for the eradication of sin and despair.
But everything that comes from God is for the sake of love and from love. He is incapable of hatred and wrath.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I don't believe a god can be described as loving if he has no hatred of sin and despair.
Sin and despair are indeed opposed to God, and certainly no person can be described as loving who does not hate sin and despair.
God also continually works for the eradication of sin and despair.
But everything that comes from God is for the sake of love and from love. He is incapable of hatred and wrath.
Only if you ignore the fact that the Bible speaks clearly of his wrath.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Only if you ignore the fact that the Bible speaks clearly of his wrath.
Yes, the Bible speaks clearly of His wrath. The Bible is true and is God's Word.
But the Bible speaks in parables and appearances. They need to be understood in the light of Christ's teachings.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure if Freddy is ignoring that, Mudfrog, just putting a different slant on it ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
We anthropomorphize this into anger the way that ancient peoples saw a storm or a drought as God's anger. When a person leaps from a cliff and falls to the ground we don't say that his leaping angered God, who therefore smashed him to the ground. It's just physics.
"Anger" as a response to sin is really just spiritual physics. The truth is that sin destroys, and that this is why it is sin. It's got nothing to do with anger.
We've been here before Freddy.
Your explanation has a lot going for it but is ultimately non-trinitarian. That is to say, God is revealed to us in three persons and your explanation is completely non-personal.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
If we deny that God feels anger, what gives us the confidence - the right, even - to say that God loves, that he feels love for us?
To speak, as some do, of a god who feels no emotion, who is impassible and to talk about 'spiritual physics', is logically to speak of a god with no personality, no will, no consciousness.
It's not that far from atheism.
And as far as the charge of anthropomorphism goes well, I would rather say that we attribute emotional response to God because we are indeed created in his image and therefore reflect him, rather than creating in our own minds a god who feels just because we do, and we want to project back onto this idol our own human traits.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why are you being disingenuous Mudfrog ? And I'm surprised at you Gamaliel.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
@Johnny, re his last post to Freddy.
I would have thought the "personal" aspect was well looked after in God the Trinity's response to the "de-personizing" effects of sin, through the incarnation event.
In fact, is the very impersonal nature of sin which is the problem. To be a person is to be able to choose. Sin robs us of that ability, and ultimately, therefore, robs us of any authentic personhood at all. That is why the scriptural writers bang on about "slavery to sin". As a slave cannot choose to do what he would like, so we are in bondage to habits, fears, shame and so on. The atonement is the repersonisation of humanity, the breaking of that bondage.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
I think you need to talk to Freddy then JJ.
I've no problem with your comments about sin. I can't square them with Freddy's "spiritual physics" though.
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
I think you need to talk to Freddy then JJ.
I've no problem with your comments about sin. I can't square them with Freddy's "spiritual physics" though.
Well I know Swedenborgianism isn't Trinitarian in the normally accepted sense, but I can't help but think you are reading that background into Freddy's post. I do think that the ontological nature of sin is intimately related to death, and therefore anti-personal. Furthermore, the end effect of sin is a wasting away of personhood, and ultimately, eternal death, however we understand that. I do not think this requires any intervention from God to bring this about. We would not die eternally because God curses us, rather we would die eternally if God does not sustain us. I don't see that as being all that different to what Freddy wrote, whatever other theological differences we might have.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Well I know Swedenborgianism isn't Trinitarian in the normally accepted sense, but I can't help but think you are reading that background into Freddy's post.
Thank you JJ. Yes, I don't see what my spiritual physics has to do with the New Church view of the Trinity. Jesus Christ is the one only God of heaven and earth, and Father, Son and Holy Spirit are within Him in the same sense that every person's soul, body, and actions make one person. If anything this is more personal not less.
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
I do think that the ontological nature of sin is intimately related to death, and therefore anti-personal. Furthermore, the end effect of sin is a wasting away of personhood, and ultimately, eternal death, however we understand that. I do not think this requires any intervention from God to bring this about. We would not die eternally because God curses us, rather we would die eternally if God does not sustain us. I don't see that as being all that different to what Freddy wrote, whatever other theological differences we might have.
Yes, I agree with this way of looking at it.
It's not that God is not intimately involved and present with everything that happens with every person. But His actions are continually about rescuing us from the harm caused by evil and drawing us toward Him. All "punishment" and unhappiness is the effect of whatever distances us from Him.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Surprised at me, Martin?
Why, what have I done or said to surprise you?
I wasn't agreeing with Freddy necessarily, just saying that he wasn't 'ignoring' the references to God being capable of anger but putting a different slant on them to the way that Mudfrog would understand these things. What's so surprising about that?
It would be like saying that Mousethief or Fr Gregory aren't overlooking references to predestination, say, in the Bible, but talking a different stance on these things to the way that a Protestant, or more specifically, a Calvinist, would.
I wasn't saying any more than that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
In what way am I allegedly being disingenuous?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Gamaliel, my dear friend I've yet to play chess, paintballing and the violin with (eternity, OK?), the trouble is I DO agree with Freddy, cultic heterodoxarian (unless one can noun heterodox?) nay heretic that he is.
I can't find it on this thread, but I'm sure it was you, and my profuse apologies if not, BUT in all your inclusive, beguiling Orthodoxy I thought you said something like God didn't create people to damn or damned in advance but that He knew who would be damned.
As He can't possibly know that it's going to rain tomorrow without proliferating entities a tad, how does He know that even Satan himself is reprobate ? As Satan has not yet seen the outworking of mercy in the Resurrection, has not yet seen one hundred billion monkeys obtain the edict of grace ?
And if you didn't, someone did, but where ?! Hmmm ? HMMM ?
It can't have been Mudfrog or Johnny S who both preach it like Wesley but believe it like Calvin, talking of whom KEN??!
Explain!
Not you Gamaliel, Ken, and you Gamaliel!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Martin, what the heck are you talking about?
Your posting style has a certain charm, but I'm damned ( ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ) if I can make head nor tail of it at times ...
And by the way, I'm fairly Orthophile but not Orthodox ... not with a big O anyway ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Mutter, mumble. Lovely word Orthophile. Sorry. Oh, er, well, er, somebody did. Somebody on a thread just like this one and just like you. Said that.
That God knows who's damned.
And Mudfrog, my brother (and therefore Johnny S), what proportion of humanity is damned ? What TYPES of people ? Who has accountably heard THE gospel and rejected it ? I can't think of even a TYPE bar one, like Priscilla.
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Love wins
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It might have been me, it might not have been. It's difficult to tell what I'm supposed to have said.
Your prose style sounds like James Joyce meets Dylan Thomas meets a Norwegian tourist lost in central London and using a Norwegian-English phrasebook that has been translated from the Portuguese ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I know you've addressed your question to Mudfrog (and therefore Johnny S), Martin, but my somewhat Orthophile answer to your question 'what proportion of humanity will be damned' is ...
I really have no idea. I am not God.
And I think a small c-calvinist answer to that question would run along similar lines, but perhaps from a different direction ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Tusen takk - Obrigado
Ah HAH! But you know God. You FEEL God. You are no damnationist, not even a closet one. So when you say that you are not God and it ain't your call, yeah we can all assent to that small c-calvinism and know it's safe, that we can trust God to be perfect in His [process of and final] judgement, in Sovereignty as sovereign effectual love, because we don't know who ANY MORE THAN HE CAN.
That's me by the way. The because.
We are ALL saved from our heresies AKA theologies.
[ 24. June 2012, 13:03: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It can't have been Mudfrog or Johnny S who both preach it like Wesley but believe it like Calvin... [/QB]
I've heard this sentiment before but I have no idea what it means!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It can't have been Mudfrog or Johnny S who both preach it like Wesley but believe it like Calvin... [/QB]
I've heard this sentiment before but I have no idea what it means!
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Mutter, mumble. Lovely word Orthophile. Sorry. Oh, er, well, er, somebody did. Somebody on a thread just like this one and just like you. Said that.
That God knows who's damned.
And Mudfrog, my brother (and therefore Johnny S), what proportion of humanity is damned ? What TYPES of people ? Who has accountably heard THE gospel and rejected it ? I can't think of even a TYPE bar one, like Priscilla.
The truth is that we are all 'damned' as you put it. The wages of sin is death and there is none righteous, no not one. Jesus said those who don't believe are condemned already.
BUT atonement is made for the world and is appropriated by those who believe, as I have said.
The grey areas are judged by God in his mercy, grace and compassion.
It's not my call
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Martin - I don't know whether I am a damnationist or not - a closet one or otherwise.
I'm more than happy to leave that one to Almighty God.
Sure, I would have difficulties with a full-on universalism ... people like Hitler, Stalin, child-rapists and murderers etc etc ... but then, 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God' ...
I mightn't be as full-on as Mudfrog, though, in his 'we're all doomed unless we repent' stance - although I can understand that position.
I tend to find a completely universalist position as untenable as I find a double-predestinarian one.
But it ain't my call ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Hmmmm. When's the mental age of responsibility, of peccability ? How grey an area is that ?
How saved are the saved and how damned are the damned ?
All are forensically damned in Adam and then damned for their own sins. So who isn't included in the blood of Christ ?
So a good Baluchi Muslim who burns his daughter alive for being raped to restore his honour isn't damned for that ? He's to be commended and rewared surely ?
And good Christian Ukrainian guards at Auschwitz who did their duty and buried the Jews in the sky, they're OK ?
But the Jew smoke burns twice ?
What do you THINK ?
Are Sodom and Gomarrah damned ?
It's none of our business ? Or shouldn't we KNOW ? Twice ?
We who are oh so saved ? On the basis of what we say we believe ?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And Mudfrog, my brother (and therefore Johnny S), what proportion of humanity is damned ?
17.67%
(I'm not sure if you round up or down though.)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Nice one, I smiled out loud. Snorted actually.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Nice one, I smiled out loud. Snorted actually.
I have no trouble explaining that God knows who is damned before they are even born.
It doesn't affect human freedom one wit.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
The key is that "damned" doesn't mean what you think it means.
The proof is that, assuming He is not only good but also omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, He would not have set something in motion that would fail to get the results He desires.
I'm sure that most of us understand that uncertainty only applies to small samples. Once the samples are large ones the results are always predictable within certain limits.
But the fact that God knows that my behavior is likely to vary from the norm doesn't bother me in the least. I take comfort in the fact that I don't know this, and that since He is a good God the overall project (that is, creation) is sure to turn out well.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
NT Wright's new book says God is saving creation (including people).
As does Romans 8
Why do we have to wait until a theologian says it before we believe it?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
I believed that people were part of creation before Wright told me.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
As ever Freddy, I have to agree ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Apart from any hint that God knows because He's seen the indeterminate, unhappened future from 'outside'. Outside Himself.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
I believed that people were part of creation before Wright told me.
HERETIC!!!!
--Tom Clune
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
NT Wright's new book says God is saving creation (including people).
As does Romans 8
Kinda.
Not entirely sure what Paul is on about there. Sounds somewhat Martinesque. (Tho Martin is often easier to understand).
Wright seems to say we are saved from decay and corruption.
Very much inline with his "resurrection on earth in the age to come" routine.
Tho one wonders why God created a decayed and corrupted world in the first place ......
Oh no wait...WE somehow did that right? Completely changed the ontological nature of all of creation ( and ourselves ) by eating that blasted bit of fruit.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 26. June 2012, 13:56: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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NJA
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# 13022
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Posted
"Saved" means delivered. In the Old testament they were delivered from oppressive situations. In the New Testament people are delivered from a mortal, unfulfilling existance, without God, to the opposite.
This is achieved by us receiving God's Spirit, His Life:
"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ" (Titus 3:5-6)
- as detailed in scripture - Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46, John 3:8.
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
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NJA
Shipmate
# 13022
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Posted
"Saved" means delivered. In the Old testament they were delivered from oppressive situations. In the New Testament people are delivered from a mortal, unfulfilling existance, without God, to the opposite.
This is achieved by us receiving God's Spirit, His Life:
"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ" (Titus 3:5-6)
- as detailed in scripture - Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46, John 3:8.
Posts: 1283 | From: near London | Registered: Sep 2007
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