Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Saved from what (or who?)
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Father Gregory
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/fr_gregory.jpg) Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Christians often say that they are being saved (or have been saved). According to your understanding ... from what or who?
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
From my self-imposed separation from the Almighty.
--Tom Clune
-------------------- This space left blank intentionally.
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Matt Black
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/matt_black.jpg) Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
So do I!
-------------------- "Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Well that was quick! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-------------------- By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
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poileplume
Shipmate
# 16438
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Posted
Kierkegaard is it not?
-------------------- Please note I am quite severely dyslexic
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hatless
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/3365.jpg) Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by poileplume: Kierkegaard is it not?
No, I think Kierkegaard is fairly harmless. It's Heidegger I want to be saved from.
-------------------- My crazy theology in novel form
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Saved from sin and it's penalty, death. [ 20. June 2012, 17:05: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
-------------------- "The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid." G.K. Chesterton
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Lyda*Rose
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/4544.jpg) Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
And for the Americans who got blocked from Father Gregory's link: "The Philosopher's Drinking Song" from the Hollywood Bowl. [ 20. June 2012, 17:25: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
-------------------- "Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by tclune: From my self-imposed separation from the Almighty.
--Tom Clune
I like it. Shorter than my wording -- saved from the twisted goals and twisted personalities of our fallen selves. It's a process, growing to be more like Jesus in our values, goals, attitudes towards others and ourselves and God.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by tclune: From my self-imposed separation from the Almighty. --Tom Clune
And this is called "re-birth" or "being born again."
The self that imposes that separation from the Almighty needs to die and a new self needs to take its place - a self that is not separated from Him.
-------------------- "Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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WhateverTheySay
Shipmate
# 16598
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Posted
We are being saved from our sins.
-------------------- I'm not lost, I just don't know where I am going
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lyda*Rose: And for the Americans who got blocked from Father Gregory's link: "The Philosopher's Drinking Song" from the Hollywood Bowl.
A WARNING: None not already familiar with MP should have the Hollywood bowl performance as their introduction. Their timing and delivery were bloody awful. They were phoning it in to fans who knew the routines better than python did. Sad thing to see or hear.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Self-imposed Tom ?!
Far be it from me to be considerably liberaller than yow, but how did you or I self-imposedly separate ourselves from God ?
We're being rescued from the contingent suffering of creation. [ 20. June 2012, 19:43: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
-------------------- Love wins
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churchgeek
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/5557.jpg) Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by hatless: quote: Originally posted by poileplume: Kierkegaard is it not?
No, I think Kierkegaard is fairly harmless. It's Heidegger I want to be saved from.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
-------------------- I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Father Gregory
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/fr_gregory.jpg) Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Martin - It's OUR choice that creates hell not God's choice. God's choice is union with Him - Heaven; but He won't choose against us and our will even if we choose against Him and His.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What choice ? What choice did A&E have ? Only those God has freed have choice.
-------------------- Love wins
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Father Gregory
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/fr_gregory.jpg) Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Martin ... you and I both know the love you have for the French lawyer of old but to me ... he is a heretic. Sorry.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Father Gregory: Christians often say that they are being saved (or have been saved). According to your understanding ... from what or who?
If I read two ways to live (hardly the only offender the answer's pretty clear. Saved from the greatest monster I can imagine - God The Father.
-------------------- My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
No problem with rejecting Descartes, Father Gregory, but so what ? What choice ? What IS choice ? I don't understand the term. Like freewill. Quite meaningless. [ 20. June 2012, 20:18: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
-------------------- Love wins
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: What choice ? What IS choice ? I don't understand the term. Like freewill. Quite meaningless.
That's right.
Everything that accords with our desires is what we call freedom. But the reality here is as slippery as an eel.
Thankfully it is this very slipperiness that allows God to guide the human race, rescuing it from a purely mathematical absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action.
-------------------- "Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I HATE it when we agree Freddy And I'm not joking as you know !
-------------------- Love wins
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Father Gregory: Martin ... you and I both know the love you have for the French lawyer of old but to me ... he is a heretic. Sorry.
I think Martin has his German namesake in mind, rather than M. Chauvin. We lack free will because of the power of sin to enslave, not because of Divine determinism, (in truth a misunderstanding of predestination). The bondage of the will, and all that.
As he writes, only those who God has freed can be truely said to have free will.
-------------------- To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ay up Clodsley. Are there any that aren't ? In other words are there any that are going to be eternally punished for their sins ?
And Jolly Jape, coo! You got me. (Far be it from me etc, etc, but it's Descartes surely ?)
-------------------- Love wins
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Clodsley Shovel
Apprentice
# 16662
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Posted
Well all those who don't ask God for their salvation via the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross I suppose.
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ToujoursDan
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/10578.jpg) Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
Martin Luther's quote comes to mind:
quote: If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.
We are saved from sin, death and the world.
-------------------- "Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
I think it's also interesting (and more optimistic in my view) to think about what we are saved FOR, rather than simply what we are saved FROM.
Might we be saved in order to preach the Gospel to the poor, to heal the brokenhearted, to bring deliverance to the captives, recovery of sight to the blind and to bring freedom to the oppressed? Or to make disciples of the nations, and to be salt and light to them? To love the LORD our God and know that we are loved by Him. Or to love our neighbour as ourselves, and to love also our enemy? To lay down our lives for our friends? To take up our cross?
-------------------- My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
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Father Gregory
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/fr_gregory.jpg) Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Justinian
quote: If I read two ways to live (hardly the only offender the answer's pretty clear. Saved from the greatest monster I can imagine - God The Father.
Precisely. Which is why I asked the question. The French lawyer was Calvin of course ... but I will take Luther as well.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
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Rosina
Shipmate
# 15589
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Father Gregory: Christians often say that they are being saved (or have been saved). According to your understanding ... from what or who?
From death (spiritual death) brought about by sin which I see as separation from God our Creator.
-------------------- "Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.
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Rosina
Shipmate
# 15589
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Clodsley Shovel: From being eternally punished for our sins.
I do not believe God punishes at all - we punish ourselves by the choices we make.
-------------------- "Imagine." If you can imagine, you can dream, and if you can dream, you can hope and if you have hope, you may seek and if you seek; you will find.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: I HATE it when we agree Freddy And I'm not joking as you know !
Because you know I'm wrong, so you begin to doubt yourself! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
-------------------- "Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Rosina: quote: Originally posted by Clodsley Shovel: From being eternally punished for our sins.
I do not believe God punishes at all - we punish ourselves by the choices we make.
Is there a way to phrase that so it doesn't sound like something a serial abuser or torturer would say?
-------------------- Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Crœsos: quote: Originally posted by Rosina: quote: Originally posted by Clodsley Shovel: From being eternally punished for our sins.
I do not believe God punishes at all - we punish ourselves by the choices we make.
Is there a way to phrase that so it doesn't sound like something a serial abuser or torturer would say?
There is no punishment at all - there are only the natural consequences inherent in the choices we make.
-------------------- A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Crœsos: quote: Originally posted by Rosina: quote: Originally posted by Clodsley Shovel: From being eternally punished for our sins.
I do not believe God punishes at all - we punish ourselves by the choices we make.
Is there a way to phrase that so it doesn't sound like something a serial abuser or torturer would say?
OK, I'll bite. There is an ontological identity between sin and death. Indeed, almost the definition of sin is that which brings death. God does not hate sin because it is "wrong things" but because it is that which kills those He loves, that is, us. It's not a matter of punishment; you may as well say terminal cancer punishes those who contract it. It's just not a sensible way of talking. God, in Christ breaks the power of sin/death in our lives, healing us, as it were, from what would otherwise be the normal course of the illness.
-------------------- To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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LeRoc
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/3216.gif) Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: Jolly Jape: It's not a matter of punishment; you may as well say terminal cancer punishes those who contract it.
I'm afraid this doesn't work when you also stipulate an Almighty God. Such a being could just take sin or its effects away from us, and it wouldn't have to be conditional on us believing in Him/accepting Jesus as our Saviour/confessing our sins to Him/whatever.
So, logically, this line of reasoning only leaves two options:- God isn't Almighty. He's powerless to take sin or its effects away unless certain conditions are fulfilled.
- God is cruel. He could take sin and death away from all of us, but He doesn't.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Well, of course, I believe He has already done that through the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. That God is almighty does not constrain the methods that he chooses to accomplish his aims, but they must be in keeping with His own Nature. And, of course, from a personal point of view, I believe that, ultimately, all things will be reconciled.
-------------------- To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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LeRoc
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/3216.gif) Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: Jolly Jape: And, of course, from a personal point of view, I believe that, ultimately, all things will be reconciled.
Does this mean that you're some kind of Universalist? I could live with that.
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jolly Jape: There is an ontological identity between sin and death. Indeed, almost the definition of sin is that which brings death. God does not hate sin because it is "wrong things" but because it is that which kills those He loves, that is, us. It's not a matter of punishment; you may as well say terminal cancer punishes those who contract it. It's just not a sensible way of talking. God, in Christ breaks the power of sin/death in our lives, healing us, as it were, from what would otherwise be the normal course of the illness.
This is so right.
It's also what other people seem to be saying too. So why do we seem to get this simple concept here, and yet so many people struggle with it when there is a thread about hell and how unjust it is?
-------------------- "Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Father Gregory
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/fr_gregory.jpg) Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear Freddy
As you know this is how the Orthodox account for hell as well.
I think the problem is that a straight line is drawn from "rewards and punishments" as we experience them in the personal and social order of things to heaven and hell with "God" as some sort of Uber Moral Guardian of the Universe.
It sounds so plausible to the moralising mind yet God does not treat us according to our sins but rather to the extent that we are prepared to come back to Him, the Life-Giver.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ToujoursDan: Martin Luther's quote comes to mind:
quote: If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.
We are saved from sin, death and the world.
Er, the same Luther who wrote this about Galatians 3?
quote: "For it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." Paul goes on to prove from this quotation out of the Book of Deuteronomy that all men who are under the Law are under the sentence of sin, of the wrath of God, and of everlasting death.
According to Luther we are saved from sin, death, and the wrath of God.
You seem to be doing some very selective quoting there TD.
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Leprechaun
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/5408.gif) Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Father Gregory: It sounds so plausible to the moralising mind yet God does not treat us according to our sins but rather to the extent that we are prepared to come back to Him, the Life-Giver.
Not "coming back to Him" is the same as "our sin" isn't it? You're still left with the reward/punishment divide.
-------------------- He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by LeRoc: quote: Jolly Jape: And, of course, from a personal point of view, I believe that, ultimately, all things will be reconciled.
Does this mean that you're some kind of Universalist? I could live with that.
I maintain a pious hope that God is able to accomplish that which He purposes, and what he purposes is that all people should be saved. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-------------------- To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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ToujoursDan
![](http://forum.shipoffools.com/custom_avatars/10578.jpg) Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Johnny S: quote: Originally posted by ToujoursDan: Martin Luther's quote comes to mind:
quote: If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.
We are saved from sin, death and the world.
Er, the same Luther who wrote this about Galatians 3?
quote: "For it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." Paul goes on to prove from this quotation out of the Book of Deuteronomy that all men who are under the Law are under the sentence of sin, of the wrath of God, and of everlasting death.
According to Luther we are saved from sin, death, and the wrath of God.
You seem to be doing some very selective quoting there TD.
Huh? So when I post one of Luther's most famous quotes, I am supposed to quote everything he wrote, otherwise I'm engaging in selective quoting? Good grief. Martin Luther wrote a huge body of work and as he went through his spiritual evolution contradicted himself on many occasions.
And your point doesn't even begin to address mine. [ 21. June 2012, 13:05: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
-------------------- "Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by W Hyatt: There is no punishment at all - there are only the natural consequences inherent in the choices we make.
quote: Originally posted by Father Gregory: It sounds so plausible to the moralising mind yet God does not treat us according to our sins but rather to the extent that we are prepared to come back to Him, the Life-Giver.
That still sounds remarkably like something a torturer would say.
"I'm not keeping you here. The guards aren't keeping you here. The only one keeping you here is you. This ends as soon as you start cooperating."
-------------------- Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Father Gregory: Christians often say that they are being saved (or have been saved). According to your understanding ... from what or who?
I'd say the writers of the New Testament would say
1) The wrath to come 2) Sins 3) The devil/evil (or the powers of this present evil age) 4) Oppression ( in its various forms - including poverty and bondage )
Not necessarily in that order.
These days I suspect its more about salvation from nihilism.
-------------------- a theological scrapbook
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Father Gregory
![](http://ship-of-fools.com/UBB/custom_avatars/fr_gregory.jpg) Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Yes, but we are not detained by someone else are we Croesos? We truly are free. I suspect that you are still working with the Calvinist model, knowingly or unknowingly. That enables you to make all sorts of clever sounding soundbytes but on closer examination they are easily unmasked for the counterfeits they truly are. Torturer or Brainwasher? No one I recognise in the Orthodox Christian lexicon.
-------------------- Yours in Christ Fr. Gregory Find Your Way Around the Plot TheOrthodoxPlot™
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Father Gregory. Jolly Jape. My ignorance is indeed all but invincible. CALVIN. Cauvin. (Not Chauvin JJ!) Although Descartes was also a French lawyer. And heretic.
And ... er, was that irony Father Gregory ? I couldn't have loved Calvin LESS initially. But have learned to respect him warts - Servetus - and all. He tried so hard. Close but no cigar.
And agreed, of course he was heretic, in settling for wooden predestinarianism.
The more I read about Orthodoxy the more I am beguiled I have to admit ... I sat in St. Nicholas & St. Xenophon a year or so ago during a christening, the door was open and yer know ... theoria vs. scolasticism.
Evangelicalism's only hope is post-E~ through emergence. Maybe we'll meet up some day! BEFORE post-mortem.
Hmmmmmmm ...
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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