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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Chichester Diocese
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The BBC reports here that the Archbishop's enquiry into child protection failures in the diocese has been completed.
Lambeth is taking over the supervision of appointments in the medium term.
Do you think he has done enough ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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StarlightUK
Shipmate
# 4592
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Posted
Enquiries and investigation continue. This is simply an interim report as it is pointed out on page 4 of the document.
The actual report can be found here .
Posts: 76 | From: Brighton | Registered: Jun 2003
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
Chichester eh? Isn't this taking obedience to the magisterium a bit far? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Given the severe criticisms in the report, I would suggest that the surviving senior clergy for the period in question should go through the Clergy Disciplinary Measure procedures and face whatever punishment is deemed appropriate.
Whilst Eric Kemp has passed away, I think it is unsatisfactory that John Hind should be retired on a bishop's pension, having left behind such a mess. If it were up to me, I'd strip him (and Wallace Benn and possibly others) of their episcopal status. Kick them back down to the rank of private!
(Actually, if I could, I would defrock them altogether. But I suspect that this may be regarded as rather too extreme.)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Rural Rev
Apprentice
# 17274
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Posted
Following a quick read of the interim report, it seems to me that too many people have been burying their heads in the sand and hoping any apparent problems might go away. If this was industry and there were such problems, then the whole board should resign and a new board appointed. Shareholders wouldn't settle for anything less so why should society? We have a duty of care to all our parishioners and standing by and accepting lazy practices in the appointment of clergy and in not responding to concerns is completely unacceptable.
Is it just Chichester that has these problems?
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Take short views, hope for the best, and trust in God.
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
This isn't just about procedures, it's about the practical application of those procedures. The report makes the point that procedures are only ever as good as their outworking in practice. Inadequate practices won't necessarily show up in files.
From my reading of the report it seems there's an acknowledgement that the attitudes found in Chichester are not unique to that diocese. The suggestion that safeguarding officers should not be clergy or anyone employed by the Church of England is recognition that self-protective instincts in the Church can take precedence over the safety of children.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I count myself fortunate to be in a Diocese that has taken nearly all the recommended steps years ago. Reading the report was utterly sad and very disheartening, it felt like being in a time warp back to my curates days when people dropped a rod when they a were asked to be CRBed and “stuff” was swept under the carpet. Thank God for our diocesan leadership and their rigour in bringing cultural change.
I is also tough reading as the catholic wing of the C of E has suffered terribly over the OOW issue (much of it self inflicted) and Chichester was much vaunted as the last bastion. Now it seems it was the last bastion of arse covering, power plays, bad politics and a sort of clericalism that makes me puke.
I pray those with oversight now attend well to their duty to the victims and to ensuring proper safeguarding in the future, it can be done.
Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Woodworm
Shipmate
# 13798
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Posted
On the news report it said that clergy about whom complaints were made should be immediately suspended pending investigation. Is that too hair-trigger?
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NUH MUH! Nuh.. muh...
Posts: 137 | From: the ship's fo'sicle | Registered: Jun 2008
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
No.
It is standard policy in every Diocese I know of (I had no idea Chichester was SO reactionary).
Fly Safe, Pyx_e.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
It's pretty gob-smacking reading to realise how out of step Chichester were with national procedures and guidelines. Though when I get clergy files of clergy who've served in Chichester, I have always read them very carefully (let the reader understand). So it was pretty much predictable that the report would make these sorts of recommendations.
The rest of us will certainly be reviewing the Chichester interim report and picking over our own procedures again to see where we can improve. Not only was there the review of all files a couple of years ago, but I also read through every file in my office to pick up the historic allegations on incidents involving laity. These are all carefully documented and have been reviewed for potential pastoral issues and whether there were any complaints that were not dealt with.
Of course, the most problematic matter is that files only go back 20 - 30 years at most, and, whereas we now log every detail of a potential complaint and the action taken, such logging was not in place even in the 1980s.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
Clearly a handle has been brought to bear on the situation, which can only be a good thing. I hope the diocese is soon able to recover its own responsibility and appropriate independence.
What I find fascinating is the glimpse of unravelling politics in the diocese over the last few decades. Death of the great man, resignation of the next & a fall guy. How far will the scouring-out go, and will the Shrine/Chichester national appointments CABAL recover from this?
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I shouldn't think it would be terribly helpful to have Chichester Diocese on your CV at present, if looking for a new post. Which is rather unfortunate for those who are completely above board.
I'm off on holiday to Chichester next year, and shall make sure to keep my paranoia specs about my person at all times. Just in case. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
To those of us in other (ahem) denominations, rather further on in safeguarding issues, the Report makes horrifying reading.
What have they been doing for the past 20 years???
It's not that something needs to be done but needs to be seen to be done.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I shouldn't think it would be terribly helpful to have Chichester Diocese on your CV at present, if looking for a new post. Which is rather unfortunate for those who are completely above board.
Particularly unfortunate, since that diocese has historically contained some of the most dedicated, holy, and hard working priests in the Church of England.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I shouldn't think it would be terribly helpful to have Chichester Diocese on your CV at present, if looking for a new post. Which is rather unfortunate for those who are completely above board.
Particularly unfortunate, since that diocese has historically contained some of the most dedicated, holy, and hard working priests in the Church of England.
I would have thought you could say the same of any diocese. Or is there a diocese in the Church of England where all the priests are feckless, Godless and lazy?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I shouldn't think it would be terribly helpful to have Chichester Diocese on your CV at present, if looking for a new post. Which is rather unfortunate for those who are completely above board.
Particularly unfortunate, since that diocese has historically contained some of the most dedicated, holy, and hard working priests in the Church of England.
I would have thought you could say the same of any diocese. Or is there a diocese in the Church of England where all the priests are feckless, Godless and lazy?
No, but Chichester has historically had a disproportionately high number of excellent and heroics priests, particularly in urban Brighton. London has almost certainly always had the largest share of such priests, but it's a much larger diocese.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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ElaineC
Shipmate
# 12244
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Posted
I can't say I noticed many heroic priests and I lived in the diocese for 13 years.
Admittedly I lived in Hastings where one priest was jailed for conducting over 300 fake marriages. Story here.
Then there was the Bishop of Lewes who, when he had moved on to Gloucester, was cautioned for gross indecency. Story here.
Maybe things have changed since I moved away.
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Music is the only language in which you cannot say a mean or sarcastic thing. John Erskine
Posts: 464 | From: Orpington, Kent, UK | Registered: Jan 2007
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
Excellent and heroic if you like, but also very good at drawing attention to themselves with their particular flavour of churchmanship. It's still a bit of a slur on the rest of the church to suggest that Chichester's priests are working any harder than the rest of the church, the vast majority of whom do the same job, as well, with less fanfare.
The heroic slum-priest of Victorian urban legend is long departed, replaced by normal clerics doing their best on a daily basis.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
To have received a caution, you have to admit guilt. If you don't admit guilt, it has to go to court. So...
[ 01. September 2012, 19:02: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
The heroic slum-priest of Victorian urban legend is long departed,
I've seen plenty of evidence that suggests the contrary, especially in north-central London, but also in Brighton. In the latter city, Fr Vickery House (only recently retired from St Bart's) stands out as one example. I remember the vast expanse of that church being full to the point of bursting on the occasion of his retirement. I've heard good things about his successor, and I certainly hope that that parish can continue its distinctive and heroic witness in Brighton and more widely.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
The definition of heroic in this case being what ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineC:
Then there was the Bishop of Lewes who, when he had moved on to Gloucester, was cautioned for gross indecency. Story here.
Wasn't he later acquitted when the 'victim' admitted he had made it all up?
The outcome of the police review does not appear to have been made public yet.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
The heroic slum-priest of Victorian urban legend is long departed,
I've seen plenty of evidence that suggests the contrary, especially in north-central London, but also in Brighton. In the latter city, Fr Vickery House (only recently retired from St Bart's) stands out as one example. I remember the vast expanse of that church being full to the point of bursting on the occasion of his retirement. I've heard good things about his successor, and I certainly hope that that parish can continue its distinctive and heroic witness in Brighton and more widely.
St Bart's is a unique and wonderful church, no doubt; while I lived in Brighton I sang in the choir and was married there, by Fr Vick (one of relatively few weddings there as he was quite strict on parish boundaries and associations with the church). If we start getting into the characteristics of individual priests (Beau Brandie, anyone?) we shall very soon derail this thread!
Bart's was very lucky to get a successor in Fr David; at one stage the plan was that it would cruise gently towards closure with a status similar to the Chapel Royal, but the concerted efforts of the congregation in arguing with the diocesan recommendation, and the churchwarden's work in headhunting a successor has ensured its future for a good while yet, one hopes.
But if this report shows us anything it is that every church, even cathedrals and the most famous shrines, must be absolutely clear that everything they do is above board, open and transparent, and that was clearly not the case in this diocese.
[ 01. September 2012, 20:03: Message edited by: Panda ]
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Any form of positive witness in secular, indifferent, post-Christian Britain is, in a sense, heroic (and I include in that the mere act of opening the church doors and ringing the bell)!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Only if you are using heroic as a synonym for 'good' or 'worthwhile' really.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Only if you are using heroic as a synonym for 'good' or 'worthwhile' really.
Well, one must also add in the fact that, regardless of one's views on Foward in Faith (and its attendant Dead Horse) and Anglo-Papalism more generally, many of the priests in this diocese have not always felt very supported by the wider Church of England, and yet they have continued their distinctive ministries, caught as it were, between the Scylla of a changing Church of England and the Charybdis of a secular society. One may or may not think that their ministries were 'good' or 'worthwhile', but they were certainly heroic (and, perhaps, even a little quixotic).
Please understand that I'm not trying to make this about the Deceased Equine. I just think it's important to remember that these priests did a lot of good in celebrating the sacraments and teaching the faith and also in acting as pastors to a wider community (their work during the AIDS crisis, which hit Brighton particularly badly, is particularly laudatory), for which they were not always recognized or appreciated by many within the wider Church of England, some of whom saw them only as 'traditionalists' or 'conservatives' to be out voted on the General Synod. And that is a shame.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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(S)pike couchant
Shipmate
# 17199
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Posted
Since I missed the edit window: from the elaborate marble pulpits of Brighton, I myself (who have never lived in that city) have heard sermons denouncing the human rights record of the American government, the treatment of the mentally ill in the UK, and offering hope to AIDS victims in the form of a suffering Saviour. I've never really understood what Evangelicals mean when they talk about being 'prophetic', but what I saw there might be an example.
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'Still the towers of Trebizond, the fabled city, shimmer on the far horizon, gated and walled' but Bize her yer Trabzon.
Posts: 308 | From: West of Eden, East of England | Registered: Jul 2012
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
... from the elaborate marble pulpits of Brighton, I myself (who have never lived in that city) ...
I'm sorry to hear that. I was born and brought up there. You missed out. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Panda:
Beau Brandie, anyone?
Who for some unfathomable reason I got confused in my mind with Owen Beament, a vicar in Deptford (the deanery I am in nowadays) and chaplain of Millwall Football Club (I have a season ticket). Last time I went to Brighton, about four weeks ago (to the races, with my brother) I saw his Beau Brandie's name on the notice board of St Martin's just off Lewes Road, which was my parish church when I was a teenager - though as I didn't actually go to church for most of my teens I've hardly ever been there. Though not quite never. So I guess he is still there. And I think was when I did live there, a long time ago. A very long time ago.
St Martins is St. Bartholomews less-famous twin. As big, but nowhere near as visible. And often rather empty I believe.
That part of Brighton, just inland from the Level, has a cluster of huge churches, far too many for the local churchgoing population. St Barts, St Peters & St Martin's are all immense Victorian piles (and all beautiful, wonderful, buildings) and all within about 200 metres of each other. St. Joseph's, the RC parish church (which my Dad went to when he was a kid) is more or less over the road from St Martin's. And when I say "huge" I mean too huge to take a photo of and get it all in Thousands of pews, probably mostly empty since the day they were made. Not quite a stone's throw apart, but easily within range of a serious golf drive.
And going down the candle a long, long, long, way, the Congress Hall of the Salvation Army is in the middle of that cluster of churches, and the Church of Christ the King, which is sort of the mother church of NFI (well, it was Clarendon Church in Hove, actually, but they kind of merged it in to CCK) is two or three minutes walk away on New England Hill.
Which brings up one of the odd things about the Church of England in Brighton and the surrounding area. Its not only one of the least publically Christian parts of the UK (though the Sheffield area and some parts of South Wales might have fewer churchgoers if I remember rightly) but amongst the churchgoing minority its one of the most Protestant and nonconformist areas in England. Which seems to - can't put it more strongly than that because there is no way to be sure - which seems to have somehow displaced the local Church of England sideways and upwards, so its become markedly Anglo Catholic (as it is in South East London where I am now). According to some posters here (such as Angloid) Anglicans in the North West of England might be experiencing the mirror image effect - the local population in Preston and Liverpool is the most Catholic in England, yet the Anglican churches there tend to the low end of things.
Anyway, whatever the reason was, Brighton has, or had when I lived there all those years ago, remarkably few evangelical Anglican churches in a sea of high churchmanship. St Luke's Prestonville, All Saints Patcham (where I did go for a couple of years after I was converted), Bishop Hannington in Hove, and maybe a couple of others but if they existed I can't remember their names. Not many for a city of a quarter of a million people.
Whether or not that has anything to do with the other problems of the diocese of Chichester, I have no idea.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
According to some posters here (such as Angloid) Anglicans in the North West of England might be experiencing the mirror image effect - the local population in Preston and Liverpool is the most Catholic in England, yet the Anglican churches there tend to the low end of things.
I lived in the North West, including Preston, for 10 years, and my experience was rather different. I can't speak for Liverpool, but I found a full range of Anglican churchmanship. Preston Minster is avowedly conservative and Anglo-Catholic, Lancaster Priory is liberal but distinctly Anglo-Catholic. Blackburn and Burnley both have very conservative Anglo-Catholic churches (the latter to the point of hostility with regard to female priests). There are evangelical churches, St. Thomas's Lancaster for example, and those that are somewhere in between: St. John, Ellel; St. Paul, Scotforth; Christ Church, Fulwood.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Ken, Ken Ken
I thought your history was better than that. The division is at its heart a Manchester/Liverpool divide and it is not mirroring it is a matter of deliberate policy. With Liverpool being so strongly Catholic, Manchester was deliberately created to be strongly Protestant. The more extreme Protestants were given more toleration in Manchester and a number of strongly Protestant nobility were encouraged to settle within the area (e.g. Take the family at Dunham Massey, they were part of the most powerful Protestant nobility in the Country (they have Royal connections and the negotiator for the extreme Protestant group at the Glorious Revolution is thought to be from this family*). They were Presbyterians.
Jengie
*The names of the plotters (see here ) include a Roman Catholic, John D'Arcy, so it is NOT a Protestant plot. Even more surprising is there is doubt over whether the extreme Protestant, Lord Delamere, attended so on he is named and sometimes he isn't (see previous link).
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
So now we have not only:-
My tradition, my 'distinctive witness' has
- its own theological colleges, be it Staggers, Wycliffe or Cuddesdon to name 3 that are IN THE SAME CITY.
- its own network of 'sound' shrines, be they Walsingham, All Souls Langham Place, HTB etc
- its own patronage associations to make sure its own faithful get the right sort of vicars.
But my tradition is more holy, more 'heroic' (whatever that means), more prophetic (a much misued word), less appreciated, more ignored and more put upon.
And now - Wait for it.
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My tradition is less paedophiliac than yours.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
[Apologies to Chichester while we prolong this tangent a little]. Most of Lancashire is in the Blackburn diocese, which has had a succession of traditionalist anglo-catholic bishops. This must have had some effect on the general ethos. But underlying it all is the 'Lanky low' churchmanship which as ken suggests is probably influenced by reaction to the predominant Roman Catholicism. Liverpool diocese shares this - to a greater degree because [a] the Catholics are even stronger there, and [b] the first Anglican bishop (J C Ryle) was an aggressively protestant evangelical who actively persecuted the few anglo-catholic clergy he inherited. Things have changed a lot since: though all the diocesans have been 'evangelical' to some degree, there are few hardline con-evo parishes (and equally few FinF type anglo-catholics). The general ethos is 'open evangelical' just as in Southwark it is 'liberal catholic', with some anglo-catholic pockets here and there.
But back to the OP. I wonder if the conservative a-c culture of Brighton and elsewhere breeds a sort of resistance to co-operating with the mainstream C of E? Hence (completely a-theological) child protection policies which are recognised by most people as being essential good practice tend to be dismissed, not on their merits or otherwise, but just because they seem to come from 'them', the ecclesiastical establishment which the anglo-catholics have spent a lifetime resisting. Meanwhile the bishops, who have been either con-a-cs or (notoriously, with Wallace Benn) con-evos have been obsessed with their own battles. Benn in particular hounding gay clergy.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Ken, Ken Ken
I thought your history was better than that. The division is at its heart a Manchester/Liverpool divide and it is not mirroring it is a matter of deliberate policy. With Liverpool being so strongly Catholic, Manchester was deliberately created to be strongly Protestant.
That's a very interesting perspective, Jengie Jon. I bow to your greater knowledge, but the extent to which this divide affects the C of E is limited. The other factors I have mentioned have some influence there. And as ken suggests, the C of E tends to react against the surrounding ethos, hence it is more protestant in Catholic areas and vice versa.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
Let's get back on the thread. Chichester is of course a diocese of extremes. At its eastern end it has more ultra conservative evangelicals than anywhere else in the CofE - policy dictated by the outgoing Area Bishop. In other parts it has a large number of Trad Caths. Whether they're "heroic" or not is a matter for debate.
What has been the major problem (and the reason why I've always watched those coming into London from that diocese like a hawk) is that it seems to have more priests with questionable sexual behaviour in relation to minors than anywhere else in the country. That's not just anecdote - I can do you a headcount. Their files arrive without sufficient information on the background history, either through lack of proper documentation or through filleting before they are released outside the diocese. There's nothing at all surprising about the report on Chichester and safeguarding; what's regrettable is that the Augean stables have not been cleansed before now.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
... But back to the OP. I wonder if the conservative a-c culture of Brighton and elsewhere breeds a sort of resistance to co-operating with the mainstream C of E? Hence (completely a-theological) child protection policies which are recognised by most people as being essential good practice tend to be dismissed, not on their merits or otherwise, but just because they seem to come from 'them', the ecclesiastical establishment which the anglo-catholics have spent a lifetime resisting. ...
Largely yes, I would say. I know a number of Brighton clergy from a few years back who had almost nothing to do with diocesan or deanery matters - meetings, synods, clergy schools etc were largely ignored, while festivals that drew together similarly pointy clergy and congregations were the main meeting points.
And of course festivals are good fun, but they don't ensure that proper procedures are being followed. If there is an attitude that any post from the diocesan office (I once helped an untidy cleric sort through several month's worth of correspondence which had just sat and piled up) is to be viewed with suspicion, then it's going to be an uphill struggle.
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
Let's get back on the thread. Chichester is of course a diocese of extremes. At its eastern end it has more ultra conservative evangelicals than anywhere else in the CofE - policy dictated by the outgoing Area Bishop. In other parts it has a large number of Trad Caths. Whether they're "heroic" or not is a matter for debate.
What has been the major problem (and the reason why I've always watched those coming into London from that diocese like a hawk) is that it seems to have more priests with questionable sexual behaviour in relation to minors than anywhere else in the country. That's not just anecdote - I can do you a headcount. Their files arrive without sufficient information on the background history, either through lack of proper documentation or through filleting before they are released outside the diocese. There's nothing at all surprising about the report on Chichester and safeguarding; what's regrettable is that the Augean stables have not been cleansed before now.
In some ways that is not surprising, if 95% of diocese have good child protection processes - then the 5% are going to attract anyone dodgy wishing to evade enforcement elsewhere. Plus of course simply won't filter out anyone currentlyinpost with a problem.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
also in acting as pastors to a wider community (their work during the AIDS crisis, which hit Brighton particularly badly, is particularly laudatory)
I agree with this bit - Kemptown's church and priest are especially praiseworthy - and they have hosted pride events too. Very healthy.
St. Bart's has produced some fine ordinands, including women.
However, there are some very odd priests in that diocese - but it would be wrong to name them.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
But back to the OP. I wonder if the conservative a-c culture of Brighton and elsewhere breeds a sort of resistance to co-operating with the mainstream C of E? Hence (completely a-theological) child protection policies which are recognised by most people as being essential good practice tend to be dismissed, not on their merits or otherwise, but just because they seem to come from 'them', the ecclesiastical establishment which the anglo-catholics have spent a lifetime resisting. Meanwhile the bishops, who have been either con-a-cs or (notoriously, with Wallace Benn) con-evos have been obsessed with their own battles. Benn in particular hounding gay clergy.
Having lived in the diocese for many years (mostly in East Sussex) I think that's a pretty fair insight into attitudes towards the CoE establishment there, and it's from the con-evos as much as the anglo-catholics.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
What is desperately surprising is that nobody in the press has picked up on the identity of the Diocese's Child Protection Officer for much of the period in question.
Some of us were surprised to see the former Diocesan Bishop take up an honorary assistant bishopric in a neighbouring diocese a couple of weeks ago. Everybody assumed he was off to Rome. This might explain it - I can't imagine Rome would feel comfortable ordaining him given the publicity that would stem therefrom.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Who was that ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Who was that ?
Mrs Hind! Although I believe she left the job when hubby took over the Diocese. She went on to be the first national CofE safeguarding officer.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
This just gets better & better
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
And now this. Letters from East Sussex Council to the Archbishop of Canterbury expressing in strong terms the Council's view that the Church cannot assure the safety of children.
quote:
The letter said: "We have no confidence in the judgement and conduct of Bishop Benn, in relation to dealing with safeguarding issues, and believe it is appalling that the Church seems reluctant to take decisive and immediate action.
The response from Lambeth:
quote:
On 7 June, a letter from Lambeth Palace to Mr Dunkley said the Church understood their frustration at the apparent lack of progress or action, but had to follow the rule of law and be above any risk of legal challenge, which meant the work had to be careful and painstaking.....
"I would add that the Church is not like other organisations in terms of employment arrangements."
If the Church being unlike other organisations in terms of employment relations means that the safety of children is compromised then this needs to change.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Our shipmate the Bishop of Willesden was, if not officially suspended, at least persuaded to step back temporarily from his duties. All for an arguably justifiable comment about the royal family. Nothing to do with any incompetence in his job or neglect of pastoral care.
If the establishment can exert this sort of pressure on such a trivial matter, why the **** isn't it ensuring that +Benn withdraws from his role even if no-one is able to impose official sanctions?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Quite. Indeed, how the **** did a buffoon like Benn get to be a bishop in the first place? or is this just another instance of the Peter principle? And if the Dicoesan was unable to control or circumvent his Suffragans- could he not just have announdced that he was taking over full responsibility for the Lewes Episcopal Area?- he should have resigned long before he did.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
If the Church being unlike other organisations in terms of employment relations means that the safety of children is compromised then this needs to change.
Hear hear. There was a discussion on SoF earlier this year about the employment status of CofE priests, again with this idea that employment arrangements in the CofE are not like those in other organisations. I didn't understand the argument then, and I don't now within the context of child safeguarding. Special pleading, bleugh.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The only possible justification for saying that the church has different standards for its employees/ministers, is that it imposes higher ones. And sees that they are lived up to, or if not, that those who fail to do so are disciplined.
I hope the Diocese of Chichester is not the C of E's equivalent of the South Yorkshire Police.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
If the Church being unlike other organisations in terms of employment relations means that the safety of children is compromised then this needs to change.
Hear hear. There was a discussion on SoF earlier this year about the employment status of CofE priests, again with this idea that employment arrangements in the CofE are not like those in other organisations. I didn't understand the argument then, and I don't now within the context of child safeguarding. Special pleading, bleugh.
That's all very well - but this isn't some internal procedure that can be changed tomorrow. It's the law of the land. That's the joy of an established church.
It may be that the law needs to be changed. I think it is, as does the Archiepiscopal Visitation Interim Report. But that does not mean we can just disregard the law as it stands.
What is very clear from the current law is that it is up to +Cantaur, not +Chichester to suspend a suffragan bishop in the diocese. The Diocesan Bishop does not have legal power so to act, if he cannot get the said suffragan to agree to "go on holiday" for a bit.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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