Posted                    

quote:

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If you want to continue discussing whether or not dog piling exists or the function of the Hell board, then take it to the Styx.

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quote:

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We have had threads that have gone half a page if that, in Hell. Either no-one agrees with the call or the person who has been called to Hell sees the thread and posts an immediate apology.

The ones that go for pages and pages are the ones where a lot of other people agree with the call and the person called keeps responding but not apologising.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Many forums can learn a lot from Hell imo.

I just (in danger of being Styx-ish here) hope the hosts will close threads that outlive their purpose and become more like dogpiles - which, you have to admit, has happened more than once.

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Posted                    

• A shipmate posts something that gets a lot of people very annoyed, and they all decide to say so in Hell.
• A shipmate posts something that gets a lot of people very annoyed, their response to the Hell call fails to reduce the anger, and those angered all decide to say so.
• A shipmate posts something that gets a few people very annoyed, and other people who never saw the offending comment decide that they want to act offended (sometimes on behalf of the person called).

Posted                    

quote:

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Yes, but most of the threads where name calling and protracted episodes of mass hectoring eventually occur are called Hell Calls. The offender is called to the thread. There's even an informal etiquette of PMing the shipmate being called. Yes, I do grant that participation is optional but let's not pretend that shipmates can happily ignore Hell calls and just carry on elsewhere on the boards as if nothing is happening.

That having been said, I do realise that the original purpose of most (if not all) hell calls is to resolve conflict, bring correction, or express irritation constructively. The problems, as I've said already, arise when Hell calls degenerate into "let's all outdo each other in calling a shipmate increasingly nasty names" until they plank themselves and then justify it as "self-defence". It just doesn't follow.

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1. re-read what you've said to be called to Hell, reconsider and apologise (people do that occasionally);
2. apologise for being offensive, but you hold to your original opinion and will not be participating in the thread;
3. argue it out with everyone attacking you, using name calling and any tactic that occurs to you may help.

Posted                   

quote:

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The ones that go for pages and pages are the ones where a lot of other people agree with the call and the person called keeps responding but not apologising.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I think what some of us hate to see is not the "someone said something wrong on the internet" and everyone jumped on them for saying it, but rather a bunch of people got mad at X and told him what a stupid, insensitive, unqualified-for-his-job, creep he was.

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quote:

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why do you expect people to apologize to you for having a difference of opinion?

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Even if I agreed with you, which I don't, the massive difference is that being part of the HMRC club is an obligation whereas you are here by choice - if you're not happy here then you can always leave.

HMRC might not be so keen to see you go.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Trust me when I say, as a brand new host (though these comments are entirely my personal ones), that watching this stuff play out is NOT 'easy'.

Nor is it 'the status quo'. I don't know ANY other board that has a mechanism like Hell that's designed to stop heated/personal disputes from derailing the discussions that they originated in. It's something that in my personal experience is unique to the Ship. And it's one of the reasons I admire the Ship, actually. I tell friends about the whole Heaven/Purgatory/Hell concept quite frequently, precisely because it's both unusual and very clever.

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Posted                    

quote:

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daronmedway on the Purgatory thread has just said:
I do realise that the original purpose of most (if not all) hell calls is to resolve conflict, bring correction, or express irritation constructively.

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• Expression of frustration or anger, containment of personal arguments so they don't disrupt other discussions.

quote:

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The problems, as I've said already, arise when Hell calls degenerate into "let's all outdo each other in calling a shipmate increasingly nasty names"

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
I'm on the phone to the Inland Revenue as I type. The experience of being passed from one "advisor" to another repeating the same bloody stuff each time until even I feel bored is very much like this discussion. And eventually, just like the Inland Revenue, someone is going to decide that the status quo is most desirable outcome and I'll just have to keep phoning back until the bleeders do what's right and not what's easiest.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
If "Hell calls" are such a useful and wonderful community function, I wonder if we should institute them in real life. The offender can be called to town hall, and as he sits there the whole town can deride him for being an awful person with every flaw that everyone hates.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Trust me when I say, as a brand new host (though these comments are entirely my personal ones), that watching this stuff play out is NOT 'easy'.

Nor is it 'the status quo'. I don't know ANY other board that has a mechanism like Hell that's designed to stop heated/personal disputes from derailing the discussions that they originated in. It's something that in my personal experience is unique to the Ship. And it's one of the reasons I admire the Ship, actually. I tell friends about the whole Heaven/Purgatory/Hell concept quite frequently, precisely because it's both unusual and very clever.

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I agree with you. I'm certainly not campaigning for the abolishment of Hell. No way. I'm saying that certain shipmates know how to work that admirable system in order to justify bullying.

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Posted                   

quote:

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How many of your fellow citizens would you bother to turn out and join in that for, Zach? The ones who really wind you up or you think deserve it, or everybody?

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quote:

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But a bit earlier on I think they called it "the stocks".

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
Well, there's always the crowd that will make a habit of showing up. The ones that just like making pompous little speeches about other people's short comings.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I haven't said anyone should apologise for a difference of opinion. People don't get called to Hell for differences of opinion. They get called to Hell for offensively stated opinions and refusing to engage in discussion.

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Offensive to the callee.

And "refusing to engage" usually means "disagreeing with me".

Which is of course, offensive to the callee.



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a theological scrapbook

Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, it's not a great analogy because I'm pretty sure the stocks were usually locked.

Here people walk into them voluntarily.

[x-post, replying to Zach]

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
Y'know, the point of my "real life" thing was to get people to think about what a hell call in real life would look like. And I don't think it would look as great as certain people here are putting on.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
But in real life, if someone is so upset that they are screaming, you can respond by screaming back or by trying to calm the situation (apology). Once calmer, you can then unpick what caused the uproar in the first place. Shouting back that you're right doesn't help in real life either.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, it's not a great analogy because I'm pretty sure the stocks were usually locked.

Here people walk into them voluntarily.

[x-post, replying to Zach]

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The same goes for people who get it into their heads that they are being insulted.

Once again, look at real life. When, in the course of heated discussion, your office mate offends you, I would HOPE you don't stamp about the office screaming about what an awful person he is, and the rest don't join in agreeing that the other guy is just awful and should quit.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, it's not a great analogy because I'm pretty sure the stocks were usually locked.

Here people walk into them voluntarily.

[x-post, replying to Zach]

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The same goes for people who get it into their heads that they are being insulted.

Once again, look at real life. When, in the course of heated discussion, your office mate offends you, I would HOPE you don't stamp about the office screaming about what an awful person he is, and the rest don't join in agreeing that the other guy is just awful and should quit.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
If you feel that all humans are just plain savages, Orfeo, and that the dear Ship should not and cannot attempt to be any different, then my objections have nothing to say to you. Indeed, that seems to be the whole point of hell.

But if any of us would hope that civility and Christian love can be a possibility here, then I just can't imagine how hell calls fit in to that.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
But if any of us would hope that civility and Christian love can be a possibility here, then I just can't imagine how hell calls fit in to that.

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:

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Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Even if I agreed with you, which I don't, the massive difference is that being part of the HMRC club is an obligation whereas you are here by choice - if you're not happy here then you can always leave.

HMRC might not be so keen to see you go.

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This is this and this ain't Hell so you can pack that nonsense in right now.

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Posted                    

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I haven't said anyone should apologise for a difference of opinion. People don't get called to Hell for differences of opinion. They get called to Hell for offensively stated opinions and refusing to engage in discussion.

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Offensive to the callee.

And "refusing to engage" usually means "disagreeing with me".

Which is of course, offensive to the callee.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
If you feel that all humans are just plain savages, Orfeo, and that the dear Ship should not and cannot attempt to be any different, then my objections have nothing to say to you. Indeed, that seems to be the whole point of hell.

But if any of us would hope that civility and Christian love can be a possibility here, then I just can't imagine how hell calls fit in to that.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by goperryrevs:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
If you feel that all humans are just plain savages, Orfeo, and that the dear Ship should not and cannot attempt to be any different, then my objections have nothing to say to you. Indeed, that seems to be the whole point of hell.

But if any of us would hope that civility and Christian love can be a possibility here, then I just can't imagine how hell calls fit in to that.

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I think it's a lesser of two evils. The Ship is attempting to be different - Hell is something unique to the Ship, and it works.

The problem is people, not Hell, and sometimes people take things too far.

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
If you feel that all humans are just plain savages, Orfeo, and that the dear Ship should not and cannot attempt to be any different, then my objections have nothing to say to you. Indeed, that seems to be the whole point of hell.

But if any of us would hope that civility and Christian love can be a possibility here, then I just can't imagine how hell calls fit in to that.

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I don't accept the dichotomy. Civil people don't go around being eternally nice to each other. They just find more civil ways to be not nice on occasions.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
and also be aware that the Ship is not intended to be the first, last and everything of their lives.

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Blasphemy!

It wouldn't bother you to be ostracized or banned then?




I still can't help but think the woman caught in adultery is the perfect parable for this issue......

[ 07. November 2012, 13:18: Message edited by: Evensong ]

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a theological scrapbook

Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
It's interesting who objects to dogpiling.

It is often those who have been dogpiled in the past.

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quote:

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I wonder ( in the interest of being a semblance of a Christian website ) that there might be some kind of mechanism in place where dogpiles are stopped by the ADMINS or hosts when it starts to become obvious it is happening?

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quote:

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Obviously, many will argue that the dogpilee should just walk away and ignore it.

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quote:

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But when you love the ship and you love being on it, walking away is really hard because you actually give a shit about what people think and seeing your name slandered and bullshitted around the place so much and people talking such rubbish about you and what they perceive you have said.

Walking away from that is sometimes like giving up. And who wants to give up on something they care about...?

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensong:
I still can't help but think the woman caught in adultery is the perfect parable for this issue......

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Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Trust me when I say, as a brand new host (though these comments are entirely my personal ones), that watching this stuff play out is NOT 'easy'.

Nor is it 'the status quo'. I don't know ANY other board that has a mechanism like Hell that's designed to stop heated/personal disputes from derailing the discussions that they originated in. It's something that in my personal experience is unique to the Ship. And it's one of the reasons I admire the Ship, actually. I tell friends about the whole Heaven/Purgatory/Hell concept quite frequently, precisely because it's both unusual and very clever.

---

I agree with you. I'm certainly not campaigning for the abolishment of Hell. No way. I'm saying that certain shipmates know how to work that admirable system in order to justify bullying.

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If you really don’t feel comfortable with the kind of interaction that takes place in Hell, it is totally avoidable. It may be seen as bad form, but you don’t have to respond to or read a Hell call with your name on.

Tubbs

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Again! And for the record, I don't object to Hell calls. I object to the shipmates who use Hell Calls as an excuse to verbally abuse and, if possible, to ostracise people.

Posted                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
@daronmedway - there are ways of bullying on an Internet forum. If you had every post you made ridiculed by the same person or group of people, you had unpleasant private messages from the same group of people and had to deal with a group of people gossiping about you in real life or one of the online cafés accusing you of things you had not done, which then coloured the responses that you received on the Ship, that would be bullying. A Hell call is not the same thing at all. It's far less insidious and allows you to either to argue it out in an open forum, which may well garner you support, or to see what the complaints are and deal with them.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Even if I agreed with you, which I don't, the massive difference is that being part of the HMRC club is an obligation whereas you are here by choice - if you're not happy here then you can always leave.

HMRC might not be so keen to see you go.

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This is this and this ain't Hell so you can pack that nonsense in right now.

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Posted                    

quote:

---

Originally posted by Evensong:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
and also be aware that the Ship is not intended to be the first, last and everything of their lives.

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Blasphemy!

It wouldn't bother you to be ostracized or banned then?

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Yes, I'd be disappointed and I'd miss it. I'd lurk if it was still around (and that IMHO is more of an issue than "Whither Hell?") but I wouldn't be devastated.

Just in case anyone wonders: I have been dogpiled. Back in 2005 I suggested that a lot of old rockers had buried their musical differences to participate in Live8 as a way of boosting their sales. There may have been other calls but that was a serious dogpile!

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
@daronmedway - there are ways of bullying on an Internet forum. If you had every post you made ridiculed by the same person or group of people, you had unpleasant private messages from the same group of people and had to deal with a group of people gossiping about you in real life or one of the online cafés accusing you of things you had not done, which then coloured the responses that you received on the Ship, that would be bullying. A Hell call is not the same thing at all. It's far less insidious and allows you to either to argue it out in an open forum, which may well garner you support, or to see what the complaints are and deal with them.

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I DON"T OBJECT TO HELL CALLS.

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