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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: No more cats
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Citing the massive ecological damage done, a New Zealand businessman has proposed the elimination of cats in New Zealand.
I like cats, I know the physiological benefit some receive from having one. But I cannot help but think he has a valid point.
This is very symbolic of our attitudes towards the environment, our comfort vs proper management.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
After all this silly talk about made-made climate change, it's good to see that somebody is finally focusing in on the real environmental danger...
--Tom Clune
[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
[ 24. January 2013, 18:10: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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jbohn
Shipmate
# 8753
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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We are punished by our sins, not for them.
--Elbert Hubbard
Posts: 989 | From: East of Eden, west of St. Paul | Registered: Nov 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I'm very disappointed that this thread is not No more Cats and would foreshadow the elimination of the works of Andrew Lloyd-Webber from the world's stages.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
Rossini would be scandalized. Mee-ee-ee-ow!
I hate to see endangered species eliminated and I know NZ has what we in North America and Europe would consider to be some exotic species (as our own endigenous species are all very ordinary, you see) and I do hate the thought of the ecosystem being disrupted in any way that harms native species. Humans are the most destructive force to natural habitats.
While humans do own cats and cats do hunt birds, I'd need more information (such as how much pollution has caused, perhaps, a decrease in what they feed on or whether breathing toxic air has caused them to develop diseases that wouldn't have otherwise occurred) to see that close a link to domestic cats and endangered bird species.
I wonder how protective this gentleman is of the small rodent population?
Meow
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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
Cats are filthy animals that spread a parasite thought to be responsible for causing reckless behaviour in humans. They leave there faeces on your neighbours' lawns and they destroy the indigenous bird population. But most of all they do real harm to our community spirit by promoting the phrase "the more I know about people, the more I love my cat". I don't know how we wean our population off their cats, but they'll be the death of us.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
After all this silly talk about made-made climate change, it's good to see that somebody is finally focusing in on the real environmental danger...
--Tom Clune
[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
Because of course only one environmental problem can matter at a time.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I'm very disappointed that this thread is not No more Cats and would foreshadow the elimination of the works of Andrew Lloyd-Webber from the world's stages.
Oh, yeah. Him, too.
Hey! I rather like much of his music.
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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)
Posts: 2767 | From: half-way up the ladder | Registered: May 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Okay, eliminate cats. What are you going to do about mice? Bring in snakes? I know Florida will gladly let you export the 15,000 or so pythons that are invading the Everglades...
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
from the primary source:
The key things you can actively do RIGHT NOW to minimise cats impacts on the environment are
1. Get a bell for your cat. They may be less than 50% effective but every bit counts
2. Get your cat neutered if it has not been already
3. If you have a cat, keep it inside from now on.
4. Overcome your denial, domestic cats are an environmental threat, don’t replace your cat.
5. Sign this petition now lobbying local governments to require registration and micro-chipping of cats, to provide eradication facilities for unregistered cats, and encourage people to trap and turn in unwanted cats on their property
For urban dwellers, there is nothing new in the first three points.
I use a strictly indoor cat to keep my open fieldstone cellar free of vermin. I'm not sure how this plays out for vermin suppression in rural areas. It's probably impractical.
Item four is a fool's errand.
Item five probably should be modified to trap-neuter-and-release. A managed, fed, neutered population of feral cats provides pressure to keep unneutered cats out of its territory. This doesn't eliminate the problem of discretionary predation (or whatever it's called), but it would drive down the number of fertile feral cats, together with the consequent carnage.
Who's going to post the first link to a gratuitous cute-kitty pic?
[ 24. January 2013, 19:13: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Biggest risk to biodiversity everywhere is habitat loss. The footprint of my apartment building has eliminated more wildlife than all the cats that live here ever could.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Bean Sidhe
Shipmate
# 11823
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Posted
Cats aren't pets, it's been symbiosis since they joined us out of the desert. They kill vermin, we look after them. Birds? Nature is full of casualties.
Posts: 4363 | From: where the taxis won't go | Registered: Sep 2006
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
My dogs advise me that they are totally in agreement and would like to volunteer to help should this be proposed in the UK.
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Last time (2009) I was in Aotearoa New Zealand the indigenous bird population was growing and expanding in its range to the point there were tui on The Terrace (Wellington's Central Business District).
Almost everyone has bells on their cat and it is spayed/neutered.
The small off-shore islands maybe. I seem to recall they did a few programmes to rid them of rats, cats and possums and that is Fair Enough since they are bird sanctuaries anyway.
Oh, come on....
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I prefer feral cats to rats, but that's me.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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claret10
Ship's Paranoid Android
# 16341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AberVicar:
My dogs advise me that they are totally in agreement and would like to volunteer to help should this be proposed in the UK.
Yep my dog always tries to rid our neighbourhood of cats and also would like to volunteer her services. Although she does point out there are some humans it would be better to eradicate first.
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Just when you think life can't possibly get any worse it suddenly does
Posts: 137 | From: Somewhere, nowhere, anywhere | Registered: Apr 2011
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
Just remember -- if cats are outlawed, only outlaws will have cats...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Living in Gin
Liturgical Pyromaniac
# 2572
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Posted
London tried to get rid of cats once, thinking they were associated with witchcraft. Look how well that turned out.
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It's all fun and games until somebody gets burned at the stake.
Posts: 1893 | From: Cincinnati, USA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Just remember -- if cats are outlawed, only outlaws will have cats...
--Tom Clune
So true.
Despite being outlawed from being there, it turns out they have been caught on three different Chinese buffets I've eaten on. I figure all the others just haven't been caught yet.
General Tso's Cat is just too good to pass up.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I prefer feral cats to rats, but that's me.
I guess it all depends how they are cooked.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
Coincident to this thread today there was discussion in a small group of which one member had just returned from Turkey and related how a cat came up beside her and climbed across her back and neck. No damage but it elicited a remark from another who is a veterinarian that Europe is being plagued by rabies primarily spread by feral cats. If that is true I wonder why is hasn't made headlines as the next natural disaster?
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
Regarding the actual impact of cats on the environment:
This website is worth a look: The National Geographic/ University of Georgia "KittyCams" project.
The project has followed free-roaming owned cats in Athens, GA who have been outfitted with a small camera on the collar.
From the website: quote:
Results indicate that a minority of roaming cats in Athens (44%) hunt wildlife and that reptiles, mammals and invertebrates constitute the majority of suburban prey. Hunting cats captured an average of 2 items during seven days of roaming. Carolina anoles (small lizards) were the most common prey species followed by Woodland Voles (small mammals). Only one of the vertebrates captured was a non-native species (a House Mouse).
Birds, on the other hand, were rarely taken.
Even allowing for the fact that these cats regularly had food from humans, the results seem to indicate that the role of cats in bird predation has been much exaggerated.
Closer to home, the pileated woodpecker I once had in my camphor tree fell to a rat snake, not a cat.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There are 2 suburbs of Canberra in which cat ownership is highly regulated.
Apparentl it works, although I'm on the other side of the city so I don't know a great deal about it.
New Zealand also has a strong history of eliminating feral pests from isolated areas.
I see nothing particularly odd about arguing that the same goal should be attempted on a larger scale. The desire to keep animals from another continent as pets is to a large extent cultural. Does anyone think the indigenous people of New Zealand or Australia were deficient because cats weren't available as one of the animals? Were children there and in the Americas emotionally stunted and scarred because they couldn't own a pony?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
'Poppin' pussies into pies! Wouldn't do in my shop!
Just the thought of it's enough to make you sick!
And I'm tellin' you, them pussycats is quick!'
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
While humans do own cats and cats do hunt birds, I'd need more information (such as how much pollution has caused, perhaps, a decrease in what they feed on or whether breathing toxic air has caused them to develop diseases that wouldn't have otherwise occurred) to see that close a link to domestic cats and endangered bird species.
It's pretty darn easy to tell the difference, as dying from disease or loss of habitat doesn't leave you with your body ripped to shreds.
New Zealand has no natural mammals. I don't think people realise the profound consequences of this, ecologically. Birds fill every ecological niche.
And "cats do hunt birds" simply doesn't do justice to the situation. On continents with cats or cat-like predators, cats do indeed hunt birds. In lands where no such creature as a cat naturally exists, cats walk up to defenseless sitting ducks and slaughter them.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I'm really amazed by how many of you see fit, from half a world away to mock, dismiss as irrelevant and offer comment as though you have knowledge of New Zealand's ecosystem when you obviously don't. Talk about Euro and North American centric.
quote:
After all this silly talk about made-made climate change, it's good to see that somebody is finally focusing in on the real environmental danger...
--Tom Clune
[ETA: Perhaps a governmental program to encourage the establishment of more Chinese restaurants in cat-rich environments could provide an innovative solution to this terrible problem.]
I get it that you don't care about NZ environmental problems, why should you but it's nonsensical to ignore an environmental problem because there's a bigger one, and a bigger one that NZ contributes little to and has bugga all ability to do much about.
quote:
Grammatica
Results indicate that a minority of roaming cats in Athens (44%) hunt wildlife and that reptiles, mammals and invertebrates constitute the majority of suburban prey. Hunting cats captured an average of 2 items during seven days of roaming. Carolina anoles (small lizards) were the most common prey species followed by Woodland Voles (small mammals). Only one of the vertebrates captured was a non-native species (a House Mouse).
Birds, on the other hand, were rarely taken.
Even allowing for the fact that these cats regularly had food from humans, the results seem to indicate that the role of cats in bird predation has been much exaggerated
You do realise that Georgia is geographically and environmentally incredibly different from New Zealand? How many flightless birds ya'll got in Georgia? Cats killing any native fauna including reptiles, which seems to be dismissed in the bit you quote IS of environmental consequence.
Cats are a major environmental menace in New Zealand. Where you have domestic cats you also have feral cats who, per head, kill a lot more animals and reptiles than do domestic cats. New Zealand's fauna was free of carnivorous predators so many of their species, particularly the small, flightless birds that forage on the ground for food had no defence against cats and there are examples of one domestic cat introduced onto an island making native species extinct.
Unfortunately because of European introduction of pests such as rabbits, non-native rat species and possums the situation in New Zealand has been complicated, so I have no idea whether eradicating cats would be as good for the environment as one might think (it wasn't in Australia where cats were eradicated from Macquarie Island) but I'd sure as hell wouldn't ridicule a suggestion to do so from somebody who actually lives in New Zealand and might have a clue as to what is going on there.
As for the comfort vs environmental management issue mentioned in the OP. People don't need cats for comfort, as Orfeo said the Maori weren't physiologically deprived because they didn't have cats prior to European migration.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Sorry, I was wrong to say New Zealand has no natural mammals.
It has bats.
There's also marine mammals around, of course.
This may prove educational.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I prefer feral cats to rats, but that's me.
I guess it all depends how they are cooked.
And the cry went up: "Where's Campbellite when you need him?"
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
I live in NZ. I own a cat. I also don't think there is anything massively unreasonable about Gareth Morgan's proposals. At least he is starting the conversation around the issue of cats.
Now, I like cats. (Why would I own one, otherwise?). I don't think anyone needs to be worried that he will actually get any traction for 'don't replace' laws with regard to cats. We haven't even managed to ban certain species of dogs here, for their high rates of mauling human beings...
I do support the idea of registration and microchipping of cats. No-one seriously questions its application to dogs. Why not cats? Of course it would cost cat owners money - tough shit. It could also be used to incentivise owners to de-sex their cats, by making registration of a non-neutered animal more expensive. This way owners would have to make a choice to breed from their cats rather than it being accidental. And this, I think, could help with the feral cat problem, which is likely the nubbin of the issue. Feral cats have to forage ALL their food, are much more likely to be non-neutered and/or diseased. I live in a city now, but I grew up 'in the bush', as it were, out in the middle of nowhere, and there was a feral cat problem in the bush around our home, due at least in part by people dumping 'accidental' kittens because they didn't want them, couldn't get rid of them, and were too squeamish to euthanise them.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Heyyyy, what about advertising cat huntin' holidays in EnZed in the good ole YooEss of Ay ? Bring yer own AyKay.
All the fun of a school rampage and none of the guilt!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Last time (2009) I was in Aotearoa New Zealand the indigenous bird population was growing and expanding in its range to the point there were tui on The Terrace (Wellington's Central Business District).
Almost everyone has bells on their cat...
To your anecdotal experience I will add my own, which is that I see plenty of cats every day from my house and section, and I don't recall the last time I saw one with a bell on. Though of course I don't live in Wellington...maybe they do things differently there.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Martin, I'm in love with you this morning.
We can provide a list of feral animals to hunt in Australia too. Forget cats, we can also offer you foxes, pigs and rabbits. MICE if you want to just fire randomly into a seething mass of thousands of the things.
Oh and wild horses as well, though people are extremely touchy about that one.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Psmith
Shipmate
# 15311
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Martin, I'm in love with you this morning.
We can provide a list of feral animals to hunt in Australia too. Forget cats, we can also offer you foxes, pigs and rabbits. MICE if you want to just fire randomly into a seething mass of thousands of the things.
Oh and wild horses as well, though people are extremely touchy about that one.
Last summer there were protests outside a restaurant that served horse meat (raised for slaughter) in Toronto. While I've no quarrel with vegetarianism, I don't understand eating beef but shunning horse as unethical.
On topic now: there is a great deal difference between feral cats in an ecosystem with wild cats and one like that of New Zealand. In the former this might seem an excessive response (though I'm not sure about that), while in the latter it certainly is not. The gravity of the effect of invasive species is clear in many places- the collapse of ecosystems and the dominance of the new species and the loss of others. The normalcy of cat ownership and the acceptance of gross irresponsibility on the part of owners increases the danger in this case, not (as many people seam to think) the reverse.
The perennial excuse to do nothing in the face of a problem, as invoked by Tom, would, if acted upon generally, make the world a worse place in uncountable ways. It is actually possible for a country to deal with more than one thing at a time.
[ 24. January 2013, 23:08: Message edited by: Psmith ]
Posts: 81 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
The goddess Bast would not be pleased.
I must have been a cat in a past life. The last time I saw a cat on the sidewalk, I said "Meow" in response. It at least appreciated my attempt to communicate which is more than some humans. It came and rubbed against my legs.
So, no, I would not be in favor of killing our feline brothers and sisters in Christ.
[ 24. January 2013, 23:37: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Cats should be kept indoors anyway. And neutered. This for their own good as well as for the environment.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I can't host this thread - my cat is purring at me.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The goddess Bast would not be pleased.
The goddess Bast would be looked at with complete mystification by the Maoris.
More than anything else, I think this map of the natural range of cats illustrates that there's a very good reason for a different attitude in a particular corner of the world. Bast comes from cat central.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
You can have my cats when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
You can have my cats when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Here's the thing - so far as I can see, anyway, no-one is talking about prying anyone's existing much-loved pets away from their hands, dead or otherwise.
What is being proposed (and it's worth noting that it's being proposed by someone who has no legislative or political brief), is this:
Firstly, when your current cat shuffles off this mortal coil, people are being encouraged to have a think about cat ownership within its wider context and consider how it might affect the environment around them as part of the process of deciding whether to replace said cat.
Secondly, it is proposing attaching conditions to cat ownership, in the same way that (legal) dog ownership is subject to conditions in most developed countries. I suspect a lot of people are getting upset about the idea of 'eradication facilities for unregistered cats', as mentioned in the original article, but again, such facilities exist for dogs and no-one is jumping up and down about it (here, anyway), and in theory no-one's valued pet should ever get 'eradicated' under such a system, because a valued pet would be microchipped and its owners therefore traceable. Another good thing about a system like this would be that badly neglected or abused cats, if microchipped, provide a track back to the most likely culprits.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
quote:
Originally posted by teddybear:
You can have my cats when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Here's the thing - so far as I can see, anyway, no-one is talking about prying anyone's existing much-loved pets away from their hands, dead or otherwise.
Quite, and not to mention that nobody on this thread(or anywhere else to the best of my knowledge) has mentioned doing anything about cats in Topeka, Kansas USA.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I'm really amazed by how many of you see fit, from half a world away to mock, dismiss as irrelevant and offer comment as though you have knowledge of New Zealand's ecosystem when you obviously don't. Talk about Euro and North American centric.
quote:
Grammatica
Results indicate that a minority of roaming cats in Athens (44%) hunt wildlife and that reptiles, mammals and invertebrates constitute the majority of suburban prey. Hunting cats captured an average of 2 items during seven days of roaming. Carolina anoles (small lizards) were the most common prey species followed by Woodland Voles (small mammals). Only one of the vertebrates captured was a non-native species (a House Mouse).
Birds, on the other hand, were rarely taken.
Even allowing for the fact that these cats regularly had food from humans, the results seem to indicate that the role of cats in bird predation has been much exaggerated
You do realise that Georgia is geographically and environmentally incredibly different from New Zealand? How many flightless birds ya'll got in Georgia? Cats killing any native fauna including reptiles, which seems to be dismissed in the bit you quote IS of environmental consequence.
Cats are a major environmental menace in New Zealand. Where you have domestic cats you also have feral cats who, per head, kill a lot more animals and reptiles than do domestic cats. New Zealand's fauna was free of carnivorous predators so many of their species, particularly the small, flightless birds that forage on the ground for food had no defence against cats and there are examples of one domestic cat introduced onto an island making native species extinct.
Unfortunately because of European introduction of pests such as rabbits, non-native rat species and possums the situation in New Zealand has been complicated, so I have no idea whether eradicating cats would be as good for the environment as one might think (it wasn't in Australia where cats were eradicated from Macquarie Island) but I'd sure as hell wouldn't ridicule a suggestion to do so from somebody who actually lives in New Zealand and might have a clue as to what is going on there.
Do you honestly think that what I posted was posted to ridicule you? It happened to be a set of facts in disagreement with what seems to be your own position on the matter. Your response strikes me as a bit oversensitive.
You may want to know that there happena to be a very large population of feral cats in my part of Florida, also. I'm quite familiar with the issues, thank you. Trap, neuter, release is the preferred method for control, though it takes a good bit of work to implement, and most local governments don't want to be bothered. We have some volunteers who trap and spay, though. If feral cats are fed, as in the observations I cited, they will tend not to take prey, and if they are neutered, they do not reproduce.
But it does strike me that the ship's rats did more damage to most of New Zealand's birds early on than the introduction of cats did. Rats eat bird eggs.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Do you honestly think that what I posted was posted to ridicule you? It happened to be a set of facts in disagreement with what seems to be your own position on the matter. Your response strikes me as a bit oversensitive.
Your comments fell into the offering comment when you have no idea of NZ's ecoystem and no I don't believe any of the comments that did ridicule getting rid of cats in NZ had anything to do with ridiculing me.
Your facts are not in disagreement with my position on the matter because they have absolutely no relevance to the environmental impact of cats on the NZ ecosystem, that was my whole point.
And again quote:
You may want to know that there happena to be a very large population of feral cats in my part of Florida, also. I'm quite familiar with the issues, thank you.
No, you're still talking about what happens in the US, which has an ecosystem entirely different from NZ's ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) Your whittering on about birds not being prey of cats in Georgia makes it quite clear you're quite ignorant of the issues with cats in NZ. The fact that there are feral cats where you live is entirely irrelevant.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Do you honestly think that what I posted was posted to ridicule you? It happened to be a set of facts in disagreement with what seems to be your own position on the matter. Your response strikes me as a bit oversensitive.
Your comments fell into the offering comment when you have no idea of NZ's ecoystem and no I don't believe any of the comments that did ridicule getting rid of cats in NZ had anything to do with ridiculing me.
Your facts are not in disagreement with my position on the matter because they have absolutely no relevance to the environmental impact of cats on the NZ ecosystem, that was my whole point.
And again quote:
You may want to know that there happena to be a very large population of feral cats in my part of Florida, also. I'm quite familiar with the issues, thank you.
No, you're still talking about what happens in the US, which has an ecosystem entirely different from NZ's Your whittering on about birds not being prey of cats in Georgia makes it quite clear you're quite ignorant of the issues with cats in NZ. The fact that there are feral cats where you live is entirely irrelevant.
Nonsense. Goodbye.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's not nonsense. The whole point is that the diet of feral cats in an ecosystem that already knows about carnivores in the cat family is going to be utterly different, because the potential prey is going to have defence mechanisms against cats.
In the case of birds, one of the major defence mechanisms is flying.
Large numbers of the birds in New Zealand either don't fly or fly fairly poorly, precisely because they had no need to fly any better.
Cats represent the abrupt introduction of a need to fly better, and the New Zealand birds are not in a position to abruptly start flying better in accordance with the need.
The end result is that the diet of a cat in a region with birds that can fly well is a fairly hopeless indication of the diet of a cat in New Zealand.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
And, the upstart cats have found the proverbial Free Lunch at the New Zealand Feline Bird Buffet. Open 24-7.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
If the evidence shows that cats are entirely to blame for the death of the birds of New Zealand, well, then, of course, the rest follows.
I am wondering what that evidence is. Does anyone have that evidence?
Some evidence was presented (by me) that the role of the cat as a bird predator may be exaggerated in popular thinking.
It was, yes, taken from the United States. However, cats are the same animals in both countries.
So some generalizations might be possible.
Likewise, some generalizations from attempts in the US to control feral cat populations might be possible. Some best practices might be found useful in other ecosystems.
In a better world than ours, perhaps, these things might be true.
In this world, I have no desire at all to pursue this discussion any further. Others may.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
However, cats are the same animals in both countries.
That's like saying that elephants are the same animals regardless of whether they're in an East African grassland or your neighbour's backyard.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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