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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Getting the answer by divination
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
It is a thing for which I now have sufficient observational data to accept as fact, that we know at least our personal future. Accessing this knowledge is another matter. It leaks through in dreams, or in those moments when you think of someone and the phone rings and it's them, or of some unlikely thing and then you read or see or hear about that very same...
Divinatory tools - dice, coins, cards, whatever - will reflect back to you both what you unconsciously know and what you wish. The more elaborate, like the Tarot, can give you a rich vocabulary to build a whole narrative of your life.
But it is when a thing is really vital to you that the perception will be clearest. And it may not be the answer you want.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
But it is when a thing is really vital to you that the perception will be clearest. And it may not be the answer you want.
Even beyond the notion of tarot, etc. this strikes me as bunk. Its the sort of thing we want to be true, even with the "may not be the answer you want" caveat. It "sounds right" and fits our theories of how the world works. But, at least in my own experience, it doesn't fit my (our?) actual experience. The more skin in the game, the closer I am to the situation, the less able I am to perceive clearly. This, I think, is why we so often see community as an aid to discernment in both Scripture and tradition-- because often those outside the situation can see clearly what is lost for us. I think of Samuel being woken in the night by the Lord-- Samuel is the one God is talking to, but he can't perceive it-- it takes Eli to point out to him what is really happening.
How 'bout the rest of you-- do other shipmates experience discernment/intuition differently?
[ 22. May 2013, 16:41: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So if you got 'Judas went and hanged himself', is that divination?
That is a card that often comes out when I've used the Jesus Deck at mind, body and spirit fairs. The conversation often ends up about about depression, although not always.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
By the way whats the name for divination through randomly sticking a finger in the Bible?
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
By the way whats the name for divination through randomly sticking a finger in the Bible?
Bibliomancy.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Also Bible-Dippin'
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
But it is when a thing is really vital to you that the perception will be clearest. And it may not be the answer you want.
Even beyond the notion of tarot, etc. this strikes me as bunk. Its the sort of thing we want to be true, even with the "may not be the answer you want" caveat. It "sounds right" and fits our theories of how the world works. But, at least in my own experience, it doesn't fit my (our?) actual experience. The more skin in the game, the closer I am to the situation, the less able I am to perceive clearly.
Well, yes and no. I'm not at my most lucid at the moment, on account of the sinuses full of hot cement.
I agree that a strong wish for answer X will usually fry the intuitive sense. But occasionally - and disconcertingly - the divinatory method (I've had it happen with both I Ching and Tarot) will give an answer of startling pertinence/accuracy. I still think of it as discovering what I myself, at some level, know.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
You could always copy Gideon and set a fleece test.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That guy was way too hard to please.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
You could always copy Gideon and set a fleece test.
Apparently this is actually quite a normal method for friends from a charismatic background - can some charismatics on here say if they've come across it before? They call it a 'fleece test' but it's any kind of sign from God.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Other examples of "divinely guided chance" are the Urim and Thummim in the OT; casting of lots by the apostles in the NT, and many centuries later by the Moravians; and John Newton's purchase of lottery tickets.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Pure Sunshine
Shipmate
# 11904
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Posted
Inspired by this thread, I got out the nearest work of Scripture to me (a new testament and psalms) and picked a verse at random:
"Bring the fatted calf and kill it; let's have a feast and celebrate."
Hopefully that's a sign that I'm going to get the job I was interviewed for yesterday ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posts: 472 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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kaytee
Shipmate
# 3482
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Posted
I used to read tarot cards and found it helpful to understand my feelings (something that I struggle with sometimes). The cards are physical, visual things, and so they were a good way to get my feelings 'out there' as opposed to stuck inside my head.
The process of trying to create a narrative or overall meaning from the cards I picked seemed to help me come to an understanding, or reach a decision.
For me, divination is rather a 'strong' term that implies an objective truth. For me, it was more of a psychological tool. Which is not to say that what I discovered was not true, but it was more important to me that it was helpful.
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'Lying is a vital survival skill – and a terrible habit.' ~ The Doctor
Posts: 152 | From: Hertfordshire, UK | Registered: Oct 2002
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Other examples of "divinely guided chance" are the Urim and Thummim in the OT; casting of lots by the apostles in the NT, and many centuries later by the Moravians; and John Newton's purchase of lottery tickets.
Some commentators have noted that "mediated discernment" is common throughout the OT and shows up in Acts 1, but is nowhere found after Acts 2. The suggestion is that with the coming of the Spirit such "mediated" means are no longer necessary, we can now seek wisdom directly, as per James 1:5.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
But "divination" was always prohibited in the OT, wasn't it? What made drawing lots different and permissible in OT eyes?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Pure Sunshine
Shipmate
# 11904
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pure Sunshine:
Inspired by this thread, I got out the nearest work of Scripture to me (a new testament and psalms) and picked a verse at random:
"Bring the fatted calf and kill it; let's have a feast and celebrate."
Hopefully that's a sign that I'm going to get the job I was interviewed for yesterday ...
I didn't. Shows how well that works ...
Posts: 472 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
But did you have the feast as you were directed to do by the passage?
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
But "divination" was always prohibited in the OT, wasn't it? What made drawing lots different and permissible in OT eyes?
Probably who you're asking. Are you asking "the spirits" or are you asking The Spirit?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
For those without a Bible handy...
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
Well, Kelly, I tried your link and got the following:
Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee? - Ezekiel 26:15
It might have sent chills up my spine if I had gotten it yesterday, with the events in London but one day later I have no clue what this might portend.
Still--that's a fun website to keep in mind, but I'll probably burn in Hell because I'm bookmarking it for all the wrong reasons.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
The first five words definitely find an echo in my heart. But not all the hot wax nation building.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I dipped twice, and both were nasties.
So I've gone to my grandparents' blessing box, and got "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" James 5: 16
Which oddly is relevant to something I nearly posted on here the other day. But I know that all except two of the quotes in the box are encouraging, because I once unrolled all the little scrolls and read them all at one go. (The two are about paying one's dues to God, and are a bit threatening).
In the Bible I got Sirach (I've got the Apocrypha) on repaying neighbours from whom one has borrowed - must give back that Python box set.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Bible dipper must be set for nasty fun-- at least I hope so, because I got 4 nasties in a row (including the awesome "pisseth against a wall" passage). If it's prophetic I'm really in for it...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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kaytee
Shipmate
# 3482
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Posted
If you really need a definite Yes or No answer, this is fun. Plus, it has the advantage that you can easily test whether it's giving you true answers!
That website also has I Ching, Tarot and other things of that ilk, if you're interested.
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'Lying is a vital survival skill – and a terrible habit.' ~ The Doctor
Posts: 152 | From: Hertfordshire, UK | Registered: Oct 2002
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Bible dipper must be set for nasty fun-- at least I hope so, because I got 4 nasties in a row
Still clicking at getting smiting, hardening of hearts and turning away from the Lord. Nothing good so far so I really hope it is all hogwash on the divinatory front!
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I don't think divination is a good way for getting answers. I flipped a coin a couple of years ago, and it told me not to get involved in it.
[ 24. May 2013, 10:56: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Kelly Alves: For those without a Bible handy...
I got five nasties in a row! I have a slight suspicion that these people have stacked the deck a bit.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
There is obviously a need for some kind of regulatory authority for oracles - OffDelph?
Very possibly a Witch Guide rating them for accuracy, reliability and energy efficiency (ie is the extra effort involved in disembowelling a chicken as against tossing a few yarrow sticks repaid by an increase in spot-oness?)
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kaytee:
I used to read tarot cards and found it helpful to understand my feelings (something that I struggle with sometimes). The cards are physical, visual things, and so they were a good way to get my feelings 'out there' as opposed to stuck inside my head.
The process of trying to create a narrative or overall meaning from the cards I picked seemed to help me come to an understanding, or reach a decision.
For me, divination is rather a 'strong' term that implies an objective truth. For me, it was more of a psychological tool. Which is not to say that what I discovered was not true, but it was more important to me that it was helpful.
Tarot, used properly, is not divination at all - it is, as you say, a means towards insight into one's feelings.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Kelly Alves: For those without a Bible handy...
I got five nasties in a row! I have a slight suspicion that these people have stacked the deck a bit.
I have to admit to a bit of skewed reporting. After the two nasties, the blessings box and the Bible, and posting, I went back to the dipper and got something harmless, but without much meaning to me, and chose not to come back and post it. Can't remember it. But it obviously isn't exclusively nasty.
[ 24. May 2013, 17:02: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
Celtic Oracles
I have used this book once a month for a number of years. Not that it gives you answers, ( I don't believe anything does) but it does open my mind to new ways of viewing my life in the coming month. I have found it very helpful.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It's never positive, though, IME of about 50 tries. It seems in fact a very subtle attempt to make the Bible and those who value it look uniformly nuts, boring, or angry. The rest of the site seems to bear this out. I'm sorry about it, as it would make awesome humor if it didn't seem to be pushing an agenda. Oh well, I can still use it that way.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Either that, or like Jules in Pulp Fiction, the site designer thought the frothing judgement stuff sounded like "a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherf---er before [you] popped a cap in his ass." (i.e, trying too hard to sound badass.) I kind of found it funny.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It is funny. But the other pages kind of give the agenda away IMHO. Shame.
Besides, it would be even better if they'd focus more on, well, the funny bits-- like that bit where everybody gets told to have a shovel handy for trips to the crapper. Instead of 90% death and disaster.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
This is my last collection.
Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: - Ephesians 4:31
Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? - Jeremiah 22:28
They took their sheep, and their oxen, and their asses, and that which was in the city, and that which was in the field, - Genesis 34:28
Then he called hastily unto the young man his armourbearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that men say not of me, A women slew him. And his young man thrust him through, and he died. - Judges 9:54
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. - Isaiah 11:4
Not entirely nasty - but I think they have set up an algorithm which searches for particular words, and then shows the verses without human interference. The first one says the opposite of what the collection of nasty words might suggest to a computer.
[ 26. May 2013, 12:07: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
they have set up an algorithm
Therein lies the important difference. The idea of divination is, surely, that there is no algorithm. Or, if there is, it has been written by GodFate/Chance/Ancestral Voices/Inner Wisdom - or whatever it is you think you are accessing by your chosen means.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
Just dipped via the website: "So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. - 1 Samuel 25:22"
Hmmmmmmm, I'm more of a "go into a toilet, lock the door and remember to put the seat down" kinda guy.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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duchess
Ship's Blue Blooded Lady
# 2764
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Magic 8 Ball?
You rang? I used to have a persona on SoF where I used a Magic 8 ball to torture shipmates...ahhhh, memories.
My own view is that God works in mysterious ways. He is not at the whims of us human beings, but mystical and magical, dare I say and use those terms. I am in awe of Him. We can get His leading a multitude of ways. He may let us use strange ways like tea leaves...but who is to say He'll keep it going on? I dunno.
For me, I get strange dreams that lead me to know things or at least prepare for them. My blond ex-bf left me after I dreamt of a dark haired boyfriend (who I still have never met! LOL). In this dream, I knew I would be happier without him, with this new man, and was unhappy to wake up to my reality.
Most of my strange revealings from God were not forced but stumbled upon. I still get them. But I tend to keep them private. I have shared things with people and then when they happen, I have experienced people wanting more. I can't do that on purpose most times.
So for me, God tends to humble me by making me "stand-by" rather than be "at-the-ready" with diviation.
[Magic 8 ball sez bad grammar must go...cleaned it up]
[ 26. May 2013, 17:07: Message edited by: duchess ]
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♬♭ We're setting sail to the place on the map from which nobody has ever returned ♫♪♮
Ship of Fools-World Party
Posts: 11197 | From: Do you know the way? | Registered: May 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Yonatan, I suspect that the writer of that verse believed that pissing against the wall could be a territorial activity - at least, that's what I've seen around South London, especially where the marks are higher up the wall than usual.
I'm not sure, though, about the men who would come out of the bar next door (which had a loo), in their cars, stop by our drive, and anoint our garden wall. I did get to stop one once, by coming round the corner and addressing him in best teacher mode, loudly saying "That isn't very nice, is it?". There wasn't nearly as big a mark as usual.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
An electric fence would have given them pause... (Water being a conductor 'n' that).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
In the recesses of my memory I seem to remember a novel where a character got guidance by sticking his finger into the works of SirnWalter Scott.
Anyone know this story and can help by are minding me of it
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Whoever it was would have had a bit of a job on his hands with about 30 novels to choose from plus all Scott's other works.
I went through several packs of Tarot cards before finding one that "clicked" and which worked for me. Some packs I simply couldn't get on with at all. I don't use it much, just to get some illumination on a particular situation from time to time.
I've tried a variety of other things including I Ching, the runes, coins etc etc, but prefer the cards as a useful method of visual stimulus.
Sometimes divination can be useful in clarifying a decision simply because it makes the decision for you, and if your immediate reaction to that decision is then disappointment rather than relief, you have then realized that you did indeed have a preference.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Pure Sunshine
Shipmate
# 11904
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
But did you have the feast as you were directed to do by the passage?
I did not. But then (pending confirmation, which I should be getting tomorrow) it seems that my temp agency have got me another job, which should last about the same length of time - admittedly only 4-6 weeks, but it's a step up!!
Posts: 472 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
An electric fence would have given them pause... (Water being a conductor 'n' that).
The thought crossed my mind. As did finding a dye which would fluoresce green when hit with the stuff.
Back to thread - I did receive a quite strong warning about this sort of activity once. I have a friend who sometimes feels strongly moved to consult the Bible about things that trouble him, and finds guidance. I was deeply concerned about a family member's troubles, and praying in a church when I found a similar urge, which I followed by walking to the lectern. The passage I read could not have been more relevant to the issue, was something I had no idea was in the OT at all, and was something which, had I based any action on, would have led to something completely dire. The true message being, I feel, like the message here if one accidentally presses the edit icon instead of the quote - this isn't your business.
Something not entirely different with the dipper thing, yesterday. I'm going to stop regarding it as a joke, and leave it be.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Oh I agree. As I said up thread, you occasionally get an Extremely Pointed response. (One I remember was when I was trying to discover if a course of study I was pursuing would land me a job: it was basically 'Quit faffing about with oracles and do some work').
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
they have set up an algorithm
Therein lies the important difference. The idea of divination is, surely, that there is no algorithm. Or, if there is, it has been written by GodFate/Chance/Ancestral Voices/Inner Wisdom - or whatever it is you think you are accessing by your chosen means.
I agree but, being old, can remember an early Russian computer which generated random numbers really randomly by measuring current fluctuations in a leaky thermionic valve (why? - it was the 60s, even Russians were weird). So if that were used in the algorithm would it be divination? OK with Chance I guess, God definitely, Ancestral Voices probably not - I doubt if any of mine could hex a valve.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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