Posted                       

quote:

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posted by KLB:

I live in constant bewilderment that there are people who take notes during sermons.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I don't think that's an MBTI thing Orfeo; it's the reason mine is a mess. It's not something I care about enough to resolve, but it is the underlying reason.

It's also why I'm shite at tidying up generally. I pick something up and I'm utterly stalled if I don't know where it should live.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Explore your shadow side, Karl. You know it makes sense ..

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My shadow hates tidiness as well. We've chatted about it and he agrees with me. A tidy desk is the sign of a sick mind.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
I am right, at least in as far as the version that I am trained to use. Percentages are very important for its interpretation - a 4 letter descriptor is not much use otherwise.

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Curiouser and curiouser, leo. Your further clarification is a flat contradiction of the Wiki article.

Here's the quote again.

quote:

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Type not trait
The MBTI sorts for type; it does not indicate the strength of ability. The questionnaire allows the clarity of a preference to be ascertained (Bill clearly prefers introversion), but not the strength of preference (Jane strongly prefers extraversion) or degree of aptitude (Harry is good at thinking). In this sense, it differs from trait-based tools such as 16PF. Type preferences are polar opposites: a precept of MBTI is that people fundamentally prefer one thing over the other, not a bit of both. (key words and phrases emboldened by B62)

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The percentage scores are not supposed to be used to determine the degree of a preference. At least, not in the standard MBTI model, according to Wiki.

So if your training taught you otherwise, maybe your training was in some variant of the standard model? Anyway, I remain puzzled. .

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]For self-knowledge as part of spiritual direction. Life is more than work.

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Self knowledge is ok but beware of crossing the line to self absorption and narcisscism. Mb is not alone but like all analysis, if misused (as it seems it can be - as even our 2 course leaders on here, barnabas and leo can't agree), then it can lead to the idea that the world revolves you ...

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If you don't know - bonfire or bin it!

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My desk is a complete tip, and I see with horror a "clear desk policy" coming my way.

It could lead to a standoff. Seriously. They might as well ask me to grow an extra ear.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Lucia:
Me? I come out as an ISFP when I've done this as a formal test. When we did this and the meaning of the different letters was being read out we got to the description of P and my husband (J type) was looking at me in astonishment saying "THAT'S YOU!".

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
If you don't know - bonfire or bin it!

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More proof of the existence of different personalities. Just reading that made me tense.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]For self-knowledge as part of spiritual direction. Life is more than work.

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Self knowledge is ok but beware of crossing the line to self absorption and narcisscism. Mb is not alone but like all analysis, if misused (as it seems it can be - as even our 2 course leaders on here, barnabas and leo can't agree), then it can lead to the idea that the world revolves you ...

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Agree. But MBTI helps cure self-absorbion because it helps us understand our colleagues and work better as a team.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Lucia:
I find it interesting that lots of people who have identified their type on here identify as IN-- . Perhaps the nature of this discussion board tends to appeal most strongly to a particular MB personality type?

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Lucia:
I think the descriptions and his reaction were before we had actually been given back our test results.

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In which case you didn't need to do the test or get the results to understand your preferences


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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lucia:
I find it interesting that lots of people who have identified their type on here identify as IN-- . Perhaps the nature of this discussion board tends to appeal most strongly to a particular MB personality type?

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At the very least, I would expect message boards are very attractive to introverts because you get to compose your idea and THEN press 'send'.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Cara:
I think I only did the MB test once and ages ago, and remember feeling "yes, BUT" at many of the questions, as has been said....

As has also been said, I think the difference between extrovert and introvert preferences is perhaps the most useful.

I am an extrovert when I'm with other people (have to rein self in from taking over conversations--thanks, Boogie! great that you expressed this so well; have to allow what seem to me enormous long spaces so more introverted people can gather and express their--usually very valuable--thoughts; enjoy social occasions; like meeting new people) BUT also need my quiet time.

As a writer, I need to alternate between creative free-wheelingness and persnickety detail-oriented editing, which involves two opposing bits of personality.

The post by Orfeo near the beginning of this conversation, describing a work-related exercise where the introverts and the extroverts told each other what would help them, was eye-opening! It showed how an understanding of the other type's needs can hugely improve communication and working together.

As well as living together. I am married to someone with much more introvert tendencies than me. When Orfeo said the extroverts really needed to have an external acknowledgement from the introverts that they had heard a conversation or they--extroverts-- get worried that nothing is happening --wow, HOW that resonated with me!!

I am one of those who thoroughly approves the modern psychotherapeutic dictum that in a serious conversation or argument you should from time to time feed back to the other person what you think they are saying. This SO helps me. Since I am working out what I feel by talking it through (as orfeo said, extroverts solve BY talking), how can I know if the person I'm talking to has followed along, has accompanied me on the path--how can I know whether I have communicated effectively, unless at some point the other person says, "Ah, I get it. You feel that ...." and etc, giving in their words the essence of what I've been trying to say.
As I've been thinking aloud, I know it has been a bit jumbled and maybe incoherent--but I did get somewhere, I did say something important--did you hear it? Is anything happening???!!!

Is this a thing that extroverts need/want more than introverts?

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I'm glad you found that bit helpful.

I also have to admit that I had been thinking about 'how do extroverts post on message boards'... and this is a fairly good example.
That's not a criticism by any means. But when I think about it, I can see that some people tend to supply posts that read like they're having a conversation with someone. Whereas introverts are more likely to write self-contained monologues.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posted                       

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It'd be interesting to correlate exclamation mark use against position on the I-E spectrum.

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Posted                          

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It'd be interesting to correlate exclamation mark use against position on the I-E spectrum.

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I don't mind being used but I do like being asked

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by MSHB:
Message boards are also very attractive to people on the autism spectrum because we don't have to contend with non-verbal communication - something many of us find difficult to understand. On the web, we are more equal - we just have the other people's words without any gestures or looks, etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MSHB:

And many of us are also INxx, so we often prefer to think (and re-think) before we post.

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Posted                      

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A fact which probably explains the high percentage of my posts which get edited. And then re-edited! An "E" tendency, no doubt.

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Posted                       

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Originally posted by Cara:
... When Orfeo said the extroverts really needed to have an external acknowledgement from the introverts that they had heard a conversation or they--extroverts-- get worried that nothing is happening --wow, HOW that resonated with me!! ...

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cara:
... When Orfeo said the extroverts really needed to have an external acknowledgement from the introverts that they had heard a conversation or they--extroverts-- get worried that nothing is happening --wow, HOW that resonated with me!! ...

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I don't believe that's a difference between Extroverts and Introverts. I think it's an almost universal. Indeed, it might be an illustration of the Forer principle.
'When you are talking to someone, you feel you need them to show they've heard and taken in what you've said. Otherwise, you suspect they haven't and aren't listening.'

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cara:
... When Orfeo said the extroverts really needed to have an external acknowledgement from the introverts that they had heard a conversation or they--extroverts-- get worried that nothing is happening --wow, HOW that resonated with me!! ...

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I don't believe that's a difference between Extroverts and Introverts. I think it's an almost universal. Indeed, it might be an illustration of the Forer principle.
'When you are talking to someone, you feel you need them to show they've heard and taken in what you've said. Otherwise, you suspect they haven't and aren't listening.'

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cara:
... When Orfeo said the extroverts really needed to have an external acknowledgement from the introverts that they had heard a conversation or they--extroverts-- get worried that nothing is happening --wow, HOW that resonated with me!! ...

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I don't believe that's a difference between Extroverts and Introverts. I think it's an almost universal. Indeed, it might be an illustration of the Forer principle.
'When you are talking to someone, you feel you need them to show they've heard and taken in what you've said. Otherwise, you suspect they haven't and aren't listening.'

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Lucia:

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cara:
... When Orfeo said the extroverts really needed to have an external acknowledgement from the introverts that they had heard a conversation or they--extroverts-- get worried that nothing is happening --wow, HOW that resonated with me!! ...

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I don't believe that's a difference between Extroverts and Introverts. I think it's an almost universal. Indeed, it might be an illustration of the Forer principle.
'When you are talking to someone, you feel you need them to show they've heard and taken in what you've said. Otherwise, you suspect they haven't and aren't listening.'

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But the gap between when someone stops speaking and when the acknowledgement comes might be much longer from an introvert who is carefully thinking out their response before replying! But the extrovert speaker might be expecting a much quicker response and hence interprets the waiting interval as a lack of response. This was expressed by a very extrovert friend of mine who is married to a very introvert husband. She said that when they were first married she thought he was ignoring her because he took so long to reply when she was talking with him!

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

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Originally posted by Cara:
... When Orfeo said the extroverts really needed to have an external acknowledgement from the introverts that they had heard a conversation or they--extroverts-- get worried that nothing is happening --wow, HOW that resonated with me!! ...

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I don't believe that's a difference between Extroverts and Introverts. I think it's an almost universal. Indeed, it might be an illustration of the Forer principle.
'When you are talking to someone, you feel you need them to show they've heard and taken in what you've said. Otherwise, you suspect they haven't and aren't listening.'

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No, it's not about feeling the need to RECEIVE the signal. I can assure you, many introverts don't feel the need to GIVE the signal. Certainly not, as Lucia has mentioned, to give the signal quickly.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I thought that was just because we actually shut up for ten seconds and listened.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Cara:
[edited to add, Oops! I got blocked by flood control while trying to send this....I guess that only happens to extroverts?!! ]

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More to fast typists.


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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well here's interesting!

My youngest son has Asbergers and he went yesterday with his mother to be reassessed in advance of him going to university in September - support programmes and all that.

Anyway, in the consultation my wife mentioned that he and I are very similar and, to be honest, I have displayed a lot of the tendencies that he does. I have never been diagnosed as having Asbergers but the consultant said that it's hereditary.

Then I found this

So there you go.
I've been undiagnosed all along and like this all my life.

It explains so much!

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quote:

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"I'd have said INTJ is associated with Asperger's but not INFJ - because people with Asperger's tend to not understand people's unkind intentions - which would be the opposite of the INFJ who tends to be suspicious of the intentions of others.

I've only known for a week or so that I'm INFJ and since then I've become obsessed with typing."

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
You know I've been saying about Myers-Briggs being roundly abused and the moderate kernel of truth being extended waaaaay beyond its natural scope to the point where it becomes pure pseudoscience?

Well this sort of thing just makes it too easy.

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quote:

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The results of the assessment should not be used to "label, evaluate, or limit the respondent in any way"

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lucia:
Me? I come out as an ISFP when I've done this as a formal test. When we did this and the meaning of the different letters was being read out we got to the description of P and my husband (J type) was looking at me in astonishment saying "THAT'S YOU!".

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Have you heard of the Forer Effect?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lucia:
I think the descriptions and his reaction were before we had actually been given back our test results.

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In which case you didn't need to do the test or get the results to understand your preferences

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My desk is a complete tip, and I see with horror a "clear desk policy" coming my way.

It could lead to a standoff. Seriously. They might as well ask me to grow an extra ear.

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Karl, I’m pleased to find something on which we agree 100%. If this policy does get imposed, I suggest consulting with your manager and asking if they really want to implement a policy that will destroy your ability to function effectively in your job. This is an instance where you could use M-B theory to your advantage, and explain that imposing a stereotyping, strait-jacket policy might suit some types of people, but is a disaster for other types, such as yourself. If they go-ahead and your performance drops, tell them they’ve only got themselves to blame, and if they then start murmuring about letting you go, you might have a good case for constructive dismissal.

Alternatively, put a big piece of cardboard on your desk, and every night put the cardboard with all the papers on it on the floor. Voila! Clear desk. Did they say anything about the floor? No. (Impose a stupid bureaucratic rule on an INTP, and boy, can we think of ways round it.)

On the wider subject of why some people operate in organised, tidy environments (e.g. desks) and others don’t, one has to go into what is called Type Dynamics. This basically goes back to Jung’s original formulation, which was extended and developed by Briggs and Myers. I find that type dynamics is by far the most revealing and useful part of M-B theory, but it is too complex to explain in detail here. I will just have to say that for any Type, one of the functions (Intuition, Sensing, Thinking, Feeling) is used to interact with the world outside the person (extraverted attitude) and the other function is used to interact with the inner world of the person (introverted attitude). (It is possible to work out what they are from the four-letter Type, but the process is a bit convoluted.)

So to cut the story short, people who particularly create and function well in organised, tidy environments have a Type where the Thinking function is extraverted. They are: ESTJ, ENTJ, (where Thinking is the dominant function); ISTJ, INTJ (where Thinking is the Auxiliary function). Because people of these types are good at organising, they often end up in management, and tend to think that the world would be a better place if everyone behaved exactly like themselves. However, this brings them into severe conflict with people whose type preference is extraverted Intuition (ENTP, ENFP, INTP, INFP), for whom the prospect of having to maintain a tidy, neat, organised, uncluttered world around them is as likely as hell freezing over. (Hello Karl, you and me both... )

This links into the comment that orfeo made:

quote:

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I've occasionally tried to form theories about just why it is that INFJs are known for having a messy desk despite being 'J'.

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The answer is that the extraverted function of INFJs, while being a Judging function, is F, not T. The tidy/messy desk diagnostic indicator needs to be analysed with caution for each extraverted function. As I’ve explained above, extraverted T types will strongly prefer and like to have a tidy desk. Extraverted N types will find having a tidy desk pretty much impossible. For extraverted F types the tidy/untidy desk question is less important to them either way, and as we’ve seen there is something of a variation in opinion, with Graven Image (post #49) being INFJ with a tidy desk.

For me, the point that most enhances the credibility of M-B types is their value in conflict resolution, particularly between couples with different extraverted functions, and therefore different preferences for the environments around them that they like to create to live in.
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Finally (thank God! ) I’m in complete agreement with everything that Barnabas62 posted here, and I think his comments are spot-on. The preferences are binary, and the percentage scores give an indication of the clarity of the preference as determined by the questionnaire and are therefore not a measure of the strength of the preference as practised by the person in their everyday life. There might be some correlation between the two, but it is not reliable. So I believe that it is unethical to use the percentage scores for any other purpose. On the debate between B62 and Leo:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
I am right, at least in as far as the version that I am trained to use. Percentages are very important for its interpretation - a 4 letter descriptor is not much use otherwise.

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Curiouser and curiouser, leo. Your further clarification is a flat contradiction of the Wiki article. The percentage scores are not supposed to be used to determine the degree of a preference. At least, not in the standard MBTI model, according to Wiki. [Wiki quote deleted for brevity.]
So if your training taught you otherwise, maybe your training was in some variant of the standard model? Anyway, I remain puzzled. .

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Yes - trained specifically in using it in spiritual direction and we use the percentages.
...

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quote:

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Even the "trained" can't agree!

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
..... then Exclamation Mark’s rather snide criticism:

quote:

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Even the "trained" can't agree!

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fails to distinguish between different sources of training – between authorised training in ethical usage, and unauthorised training in unethical usage. And disagreement between the two is entirely to be expected. Angus

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
Hope that smooths things over.
Angus

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:

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Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
Hope that smooths things over.
Angus

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Angus
Sure does. I'm pleased and happy we've set the record straight. Mark

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Good. Me too.

I’m always saddened to hear of people who’ve had a bad experience of M-B typing, as you have posted: “I’ve seen it abused (and have been on the receiving end of this personally)”. And I think it’s a pity that this led you to the action you reported: “I’ve argued (pretty successfully I may add) for it to be removed from use in one major denomination.”

I suppose this means that people in that denomination who might find considerable benefit from understanding the M-B Type of themselves and others will not be able to do so, if they wished. I agree that any coercion in the use of M-B typing is unethical, and I would entirely support the eradication of any compulsion to take part, but I think it a shame that the optional use of M-B typing should be removed as well.

As I said before, it’s a great pity that unethical and not-entirely-competent use of M-B typing can bring the whole business into disrepute. Karl:LB mentioned that Ken is normally all over any thread on this subject, and from Ken’s comments on a previous thread some while ago, I think that he was on the receiving end of some very inept analysis of his M-B type.

So, Ken, if you’re reading this, I’d like to offer you some (hopefully!) more expert analysis of the characteristics of your Type, and discussion of how well it fits you. I could make some observations straight away, but I think that an ethical approach requires me to ask for your explicit consent before doing so. (Alternatively, we could interact by PM, and you could decide whether or not to make the results public.)

Angus