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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Any INFJs on the Ship?
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Greetings, I am a Myers Briggs INFJ - apparently only 0.5% of men in the world are such!
When I looked at my profile I discovered that one of the 'top jobs' for wierdos such as me is 'clergyman'.
Are there any other INFJs here?
Hello?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Well, yes, sort of - I noticed that you declared yourself on another thread and nearly responded there.
I was INFJ over several years when tested.
However, since retirement I have become INTJ.
I miss the F!
Apparently, 'maturity' is supposed to even out the polarities so either I have matured or I was in a job that warped my personality!
The great thing about INFJs is that they/we present as extroverts when in role but then go home to recover our inner space.
Let's hope this thread leads to some exchange of feelings about who we are rather than descend to a purgatorial debate about why MBTI is crap from those who don;'t understand either themselves or MBTI.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Can you justify how this is a game, please? I'm going to consult with the other hosts to see if this thread might be better suited to Heaven.
Imaginary Friend
Circus Host.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Didn't realise it was just for games. I did read the paragraph first to see if this was an appropriate page.
I read
quote:
discover your spiritual IQ, political leanings and what level of hell you'll roast in (among many other things), and test each other's knowledge of obscure, irrelevant information
I thought discussing our personality types was part of that.
if not, feel free to whisk us away to some other place.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I am INFJ. Software developer is also a good job for people like me, actually, because we bring a bit of humanity to it.
I have heard a lot of criticism of MBTI of late. I think it is fair to say that it isn't perfect or the whole story, but it helped me to see who I was. You should not stop there, but it is not a bad place to start.
I have taken the tests a few times, and most of the indicators are near the middle. The N indicator is 100%.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
I usually tell people I'm an MYOB, but the last time I did that the response was 'Oh yes, a clear INFJ...' so I might as well come clean.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Keirsey sorts me as an INFJ. I match the description of INTP's, except for the "unethical" thing...which, I think, is Keirsey projecting his own ideas about ethics as feelings-based and anti-logical as a standard. Seriously, "justice" and "mercy" are opposed to one another? Only if you have certain conceptions of each of those concepts!
If INTP's are unethical, then I wonder why the **** the majority of moral philosophers (indeed, philosophers in general) have had that personality type. I doubt anyone would call Aristotle or Kant uninterested in ethics, or unethical, but if you want INTP poster children, there you go.
Plus, I tend to prefer the Big Five. It lets me grade exactly how neurotic I am.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Also an INFJ. The F is fairly small, the N is enormous.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
Arcane terms here. what do these initials mean?
In hope that this is not another Mornington ?Crescent. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jacobsen:
Arcane terms here. what do these initials mean?
In hope that this is not another Mornington ?Crescent.
It's yet another Keirsey Temperament Sorter thread, a perennial favorite in Heaven and Purg. More than a party game, less than science, but with a pretty interesting history relating to the roots of the midcentury feminist movement. Some people find it to be a valuable tool in career counseling, others think Keirsey's Jung-inspired descriptions of the sixteen temperaments to be scarily accurate, and still others dismiss the whole thing as pseudoscientific nonsense, just another way to shove people in tiny little four-letter labeled boxes.
There. I just saved you all from having to start another "oh not this again" Purg thread. I hope the Phosts are happy.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's the Myers-Briggs system, jacobsen. It classifies people's personality (or really, their preferences) along 4 scales.
INFJ means:
1. being an Introvert (on the introvert/extrovert scale),
2. Intuitive (on the intuitive/sensing scale, which tends to mean preferring abstract information rather than concrete),
3. Feeling (on the thinking/feeling scale, which has to do with how one goes about making decisions), and
4. Judging (on the judging/perception scale, which tends to mean liking things to be settled, tidy and organised rather than being a spontaneous live-in-the-moment person)
INFJ is said to be the least common combination. I'm not sure if there's any theory as to why the distribution is not uniform across all 16 possible combinations.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I've just done the Keirsey sorter and since it reckons I'm an ISTJ, and includes " if there's a job to be done, they can be counted on to put their shoulder to the wheel. Guardians also believe in law and order, and sometimes worry that respect for authority, even a fundamental sense of right and wrong, is being lost. Perhaps this is why Guardians honor customs and traditions so strongly -- they are familiar patterns that help bring stability to our modern, fast-paced world.
Practical and down-to-earth, Guardians believe in following the rules and cooperating with others. They are not very comfortable winging it or blazing new trails; working steadily within the system is the Guardian way, for in the long run loyalty, discipline, and teamwork get the job done right. Guardians are meticulous about schedules and have a sharp eye for proper procedures."
Which is so utterly wrong about me that it's ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
No sensible person would put me in charge of the Splat the Rat stall at a church fete.
[ 26. April 2013, 08:29: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well almost.
I/E gives your preferred mode of relating. I's prefer to go inwards, E prefer to go outwards.
The next two letters are preferences. The first is the way you prefer to handle knowledge
N are interested in thoughts and ideas
S are interested in experience and reality
The second is preferred mode of making judgement
T tend to use logical process to make decisions
F tend to use hunches and emotions.
Then there is final one, and this is according to Myers Briggs the style that you extrovert.
So those with P extrovert the first of the two styles and those with J extrovert the second of the two styles. The other style will be introverted.
The problem is that quite often the tests pick up not the extroverted style but the dominant style in this fourth category. This is the same for people who are Es but the other preference for people who are Is.
The other thing is to realise people can have preference in all of these to different strengths. A strong introvert is going to require more time out from partying than a mild one. A mild F may be quite proficient at making judgements using T.
I think I am technically a P but that means my dominant is my third one which is F but the one people normally encounter is N which is also a far stronger preference. However I suspect many of the tests pick out my dominant which "J". I am a strong "I".
That said everyone can act in every single mode and does to a certain extent. An introvert does behave as an extrovert when that is required. What is more there is both balance and development. The points are not polar opposites but like pans on a scale. Development is how strongly you score in any pan, balance is how evenly that is weighted against the other pan.
In Myers-Briggs thinking a perfectly developed person is not someone who scores 0 on all dimensions but someone who scores 100% on 8 scales.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
More than a party game, less than science... others dismiss the whole thing as pseudoscientific nonsense, just another way to shove people in tiny little four-letter labeled boxes.
Yup its the pseudo-scientific nonsense that led my former employer to shuffle me into a role that I detested for six years until I resigned. The sooner this kind of guff is consigned to the bin the better.
I'm INTJ apparently.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I am INFJ. Software developer is also a good job for people like me, actually, because we bring a bit of humanity to it.
I have heard a lot of criticism of MBTI of late. I think it is fair to say that it isn't perfect or the whole story, but it helped me to see who I was. You should not stop there, but it is not a bad place to start.
I have taken the tests a few times, and most of the indicators are near the middle. The N indicator is 100%.
Most people find that. For what it's worth I reckon it's only the Extraversion scale that really withstands scrutiny.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
More than a party game, less than science... others dismiss the whole thing as pseudoscientific nonsense, just another way to shove people in tiny little four-letter labeled boxes.
Yup its the pseudo-scientific nonsense that led my former employer to shuffle me into a role that I detested for six years until I resigned. The sooner this kind of guff is consigned to the bin the better.
I'm INTJ apparently.
I certainly don't think it should be used to shuffle people into roles without their consent!
To me, the thing it is most useful for is a bit of self-regard, rather than slapping labels on other people. It helps me be conscious of my own strengths and weaknesses, not in terms of ability to perform tasks but in the way I'm likely to approach them. Very occasionally, I'm able to recognise that my preferred way of doing things is not the best way for a particular task and I have to knuckle down to another approach.
I've done a few different types of these 'personality tests' over the years, and I've found the great majority to be useful. One in particular was extremely useful in pointing out a trait that I hadn't consciously recognised - that if I don't have time and space before a big event to prepare for it mentally, not just physically, I am liable to freak out and panic.
Knowing this consciously is, as I've said, extremely useful. Either because I can save myself stress by creating the necessary time and space, or because I can work on talking myself down from the ledge if I get in a flap because I know why it's happening.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
It has been decided that Heaven is the most appropriate place for this thread. Going up...
Imaginary Friend
Circus Host
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
The MB system is rubbish. The questions are very black-and-white – there are almost always "yes but.." or "sometimes" answers which can’t be allowed for, so it's no wonder that I've come out with no less than 9 different results. There's more to someone than can just be accounted for in a quick 20- or even 40-question list – it's ridiculous to think that this is even taken seriously as part of an interview procedure. Give me astrology any day.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I can see, based on your answers/hand lines/choice of wallpaper that you are spontaneous yet thoughtful, able to relate to people, yet capable of working independently. You have a strong practical streak, combined with intuitive flair.
I don't know that I'm that spontaneous -
Your natural modesty leads you to underestimate your abilities.
That's very true! What I find is that when I -
We all find ourselves endlessly fascinating. Give people a spread of reasonably positive characteristics, and they'll identify as some sort of category or type. Personally, I prefer to be one of a kind.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The questions are very black-and-white – there are almost always "yes but.." or "sometimes" answers which can’t be allowed for
Which is why I think the point is that it's about preference, not absolutes, and also why there are often questions with slightly different emphases. Whether you come out with a strong preference or a weak one depends on whether the changes in emphasis affect your responses.
Whether it's Myers-Briggs or any similar kind of system, I'm fairly consistent in having only a weak preference on the F/T scale (usually on the F side) but having a stronger preference on the introvert scale and a very strong preference on the abstract thinking scale (N/S in Myers-Briggs).
If you're somewhere near the middle on more of these measures it's far more possible for your result to change from one go to another. I'm not somewhere near the middle. On a couple of them I'm clearly on one side, and anyone who knows me can see it. If I'd had the language for it, I could have told you I had a love of systematic, organised abstract information at about the age of 5.
And it's hardly a case of just self-affirming 'positive' traits. There's nothing inherently positive about it. Yes, my penchant for organising and analysing information is incredibly useful in some circumstances (including my current job), but it's a flipping disaster when quick action is required on incomplete or uncertain facts. There are lots of things I'm quite bad at because my preferences are so strongly the other way.
[ 26. April 2013, 11:35: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The MB system is rubbish. The questions are very black-and-white – there are almost always "yes but.." or "sometimes" answers which can’t be allowed for, so it's no wonder that I've come out with no less than 9 different results. There's more to someone than can just be accounted for in a quick 20- or even 40-question list – it's ridiculous to think that this is even taken seriously as part of an interview procedure. Give me astrology any day.
It's even more difficult to answer the questions when you have bipolar disorder. My results will vary according to my current state of mind and the various coping methods I use to compensate/control my behaviour. Do I answer the questions according to my 'normal' state (which is usually mildly hypomanic) and if so do I answer them according to how I want to behave or how my coping mechanisms tell me to behave? my coping mechanisms are usually second nature now so are they part of my personality?
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I consistently come out as INFJ, but I have a problem with the system. It's not so much the questions, but the fact that you answer the questions on your own terms. People will always have a much more flattering view of themselves and how they interact socially and in different situations than they actually do. It's interesting (and sometimes slightly painful) to do the test thoroughly with a few people who know you very well, than to do it on your own; but essentially I find it a load of self-absorbed bollocks.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It's not so much the questions, but the fact that you answer the questions on your own terms. People will always have a much more flattering view of themselves and how they interact socially and in different situations than they actually do.
But that's exactly why I keep saying it's about preferences. Answering on your own terms is exactly what you should be doing!
There's a massive problem with it simply be treated as "you are INFJ, this is what you do". It's far better if it's thought of "I am an INFJ, meaning this is how I prefer to behave, meaning this is how I will tend to behave if the circumstances allow it".
[ 26. April 2013, 11:47: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Orfeo:
quote:
It's far better if it's thought of "I am an INFJ, meaning this is how I prefer to behave, meaning this is how I will tend to behave if the circumstances allow it".
I don't think you've understood the point I was making. What it actually does is reflect back how you conceive of yourself. This can be an utterly delusional activity, because almost everyone will have a more flattering view of themselves and how they act than how they actually act or what they really do. It is essentially a test that reveals how you think about yourself, and as such can be really quite dangerous and even totally false. So you could effectively do the test and find out , 'Oh, I am INFJ', but in fact you could be something quite, quite different in reality.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I've found Myers-Briggs helpful as a language for talking about personality. Under that conception, no instrument can be 100% reliable in typing someone, but that doesn't make the types meaningless. The framework also makes some suggestions for what someone should look to work at to develop themselves which I've also found helpful.
I'm an INTP, by the way.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I've found Myers-Briggs helpful as a language for talking about personality. Under that conception, no instrument can be 100% reliable in typing someone, but that doesn't make the types meaningless. The framework also makes some suggestions for what someone should look to work at to develop themselves which I've also found helpful.
I'm an INTP, by the way.
I would accept this position with a few reservations, despite being rather less than impressed with the whole Myers-Briggs industry.
It could, with proper emphasis and less outrageous claims, become a useful exercise - one of many - in thinking about how different people have their own quirks and preferences. But too often, partly because that's how it tends to be sold, it's used as a deterministic tool, despite having little more rigour than a horoscope.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It's often badly taught. As a value-free way of looking at preferences and human diversity, I think it's got some value; providing some helpful language and models.
However, when used as some kind of deterministic straight-jacket, it's a lot more dangerous than astrology. And I've seen it (or a variant of it) used that way by HR "professionals" (who didn't strike me as very professional at all). That's certainly the bullshit end of the Myers Briggs "industry". It's just not all bullshit.
But then I would say things like that. I come out as ENFJ - which actually feels like a comfortable fit. Classic explorer/developer type who likes change, new ideas etc ..
So if the questionnaire classified me as I or S or T anything else I'd know something was wrong. Doesn't fit my natural preferences. Marginal J however. I prefer order to flexibility, but nobbut just.
You can do that by the way; say the questionnaire hasn't got a hold of my real preferences. That's part of the methodology. Nothing magic or decisive about the long questionnaire (and don't use the short one anyway). Like all such questionnaires a lot depends on the mood anyone is in when they fill it in. Plus the usual fact that lots of people second-guess all such questionnaires; particularly if they prefer introversion.
When it comes to Myers Briggs, a little learning is a dangerous thing. But then I'd say that as well. Coming out as ENFJ ..
Unless my shadow side was in play on the day. Then I might say something completely different. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Orfeo:
quote:
It's far better if it's thought of "I am an INFJ, meaning this is how I prefer to behave, meaning this is how I will tend to behave if the circumstances allow it".
I don't think you've understood the point I was making. What it actually does is reflect back how you conceive of yourself. This can be an utterly delusional activity, because almost everyone will have a more flattering view of themselves and how they act than how they actually act or what they really do. It is essentially a test that reveals how you think about yourself, and as such can be really quite dangerous and even totally false. So you could effectively do the test and find out , 'Oh, I am INFJ', but in fact you could be something quite, quite different in reality.
But it's when you say 'a more flattering view' that you lose me. How can it be more flattering unless you think that one end of the scale is 'better' than the other? And if you do indeed value one end of the scale better than the other, that is a perfect demonstration of your preference.
It's simply not the case that everyone thinks, say, extroversion is better and will therefore attempt to score themselves as an extrovert. People with a preference for introvert behaviour don't LIKE the way that extroverts behave. They're not going to aspire to it. I mean, I quite like hanging around extroverts in certain situations and they can be great, fun people, but the thought of behaving like that all the time is exhausting.
I think I would have to be engaging in some really serious delusions to persuade myself that extroversion is 'better' and that I should therefore be trying to score myself as an extrovert despite the fact that extroverts wear me out after a couple of hours. There's real work involved in convincing yourself that what you actually DISLIKE ought to be the flattering view you're trying to construct.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Poppy
Ship's dancing cat
# 2000
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Posted
I was on a training course where we did bible studies according to the MBTI tests we had just done. My fellow Ns and I had a wonderful time on the great themes of Isaiah, busked through Brueggmann and when we had stopped talking over each other (all extroverts) we finally drilled down into the text. When we came back into the group the S group opened with the spelling mistake in the passage....
I've found the whole MBTI thing most helpful when trying to understand people who react very differently to the way I do and as the lone extrovert in a mostly introverted congregation I really do need to get a handle on that.
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At the still point of the turning world - there the dance is...
Posts: 1406 | From: mostly on the edge | Registered: Dec 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
I was on a training course where we did bible studies according to the MBTI tests we had just done. My fellow Ns and I had a wonderful time on the great themes of Isaiah, busked through Brueggmann and when we had stopped talking over each other (all extroverts) we finally drilled down into the text. When we came back into the group the S group opened with the spelling mistake in the passage....
I've found the whole MBTI thing most helpful when trying to understand people who react very differently to the way I do and as the lone extrovert in a mostly introverted congregation I really do need to get a handle on that.
I'm not an S (apparently) but the first thing I'd have noticed would have been the spelling mistake.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
I've found the whole MBTI thing most helpful when trying to understand people who react very differently to the way I do and as the lone extrovert in a mostly introverted congregation I really do need to get a handle on that.
The first time I did actual Myers-Briggs was in a work course where we were focused on exactly that. It was really valuable. For each scale, we would sit in a group of our 'type' and think about what tips we could give the other 'type' about dealing with us.
The extrovert/introvert division was particularly memorable, because the extroverts started chatting almost as soon as they sat down. The introverts didn't... the very first thing that happened after quite a few seconds of peaceable silence was we all laughed because we had heard the extroverts start talking on the other side of the room and all thought pretty much the same thing - 'typical extroverts' - and then realised we were all thinking the same thing.
Best illustration I've ever seen of the genuine differences between people's preferences. Introverts do talk, but they solve things in their heads and talk when they have the 'solution'. Extroverts solve BY talking.
And that very much fed into what the 2 groups told each other when we rejoined: the top thing that the introverts told the extroverts was to let us know beforehand what a meeting's about so that we can gather our thoughts beforehand, rather than sitting through a meeting and realising after the meeting what we should have said. The extroverts told the introverts that they needed to give some kind of external acknowledgment that we've heard a conversation, otherwise the extroverts get worried that nothing's happening.
It's incredibly helpful in a workplace to understand that the people around you aren't like you.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm not an S (apparently) but the first thing I'd have noticed would have been the spelling mistake.
But how much would you have cared about it? Would you think it was important in the scheme of things?
My strongest preference is N. But I still notice spelling mistakes very quickly. People who are strongly S can drive me fucking nuts precisely because they'll notice a spelling mistake and not let go of it in a context where a spelling mistake isn't significant.
[ 26. April 2013, 15:20: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm not an S (apparently) but the first thing I'd have noticed would have been the spelling mistake.
But how much would you have cared about it? Would you think it was important in the scheme of things?
No, but it would have bugged the hell out of me.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I remain undecided about it. After two properly administered tests and one from a book, only on the I/E scale do i show a secure preference (towards I) and even then it's not a strong preference. On all the other scales N/S F/T and P/J my level of preference for one 'end' over the other is barely enough to register a score. This meant that although I could appreciate there might be things about it which could be helpful, it didn't generate much insight in me into my own character and preferences.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
When I read a summary of a 'typical' INFJ I nearly fell off my chair because it described me so accurately.
I no longer felt I was alone and I almost felt i was 'allowed' to be like this!
One (rather trivial) characteristic of an INFJ is a messy desk.
You should see my desk - actually you can't - it's covered in stuff!! LOL
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I did the Myers Briggs questionnaire once, but can't remember what score they gave; only that it was difficult to fit myself into the categories they seemed to want.
More scary was the Asperger's questionnaire, which seemed to want to put me so far into one corner that I ended up almost subhuman. I gave up doing questionnaires after that.
I am what I am. Thank God there's only one of me.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's incredibly helpful in a workplace to understand that the people around you aren't like you.
The one useful instance of this kind of thing that I have come across is Belbin Team Roles - because it clarified what it is people do in the specific situation of the workplace. Given the degree to which we operate though different persona, depending on where and with whom we are, it strikes me as a much better approach than typing.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I liked Belbin. Came out as a Plant. Which was no surprise to anyone I worked with (or as one put it, "sometimes against".)
There is a variant on MBTI called Margerison-McCann. Similar to Belbin and also helpful for team-building and understanding.
It (ahem) uses a questionnaire as well ...
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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ButchCassidy
Shipmate
# 11147
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Posted
I think through questions by talking (orfeo = extrovert)...even though I have an extremely messy mind and desk (mudfrog=introvert) even though I would be immediately aware of spelling mistakes but not care (?)
Yep, give me taurus any day..
Posts: 104 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
Me! Weirdos unite ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Orfeo:
quote:
But it's when you say 'a more flattering view' that you lose me. How can it be more flattering unless you think that one end of the scale is 'better' than the other? And if you do indeed value one end of the scale better than the other, that is a perfect demonstration of your preference.
It's simply not the case that everyone thinks, say, extroversion is better and will therefore attempt to score themselves as an extrovert. People with a preference for introvert behaviour don't LIKE the way that extroverts behave. They're not going to aspire to it. I mean, I quite like hanging around extroverts in certain situations and they can be great, fun people, but the thought of behaving like that all the time is exhausting.
I think I would have to be engaging in some really serious delusions to persuade myself that extroversion is 'better' and that I should therefore be trying to score myself as an extrovert despite the fact that extroverts wear me out after a couple of hours. There's real work involved in convincing yourself that what you actually DISLIKE ought to be the flattering view you're trying to construct.
I think you're still missing the point. It's not about having preferences within the Myers Briggs format, it's about the whole function and result of a test; the result of which is simply to hold up a mirror to your own opinions about yourself, and you will almost always interpret them in a flattering way. As an example, you might discover that your personality is highly influenced by your leanings towards introversion (which you will have already had some idea of) and most people will understand this as 'I need time to recharge my batteries', 'It's good for me to spend time alone during my day' or 'I prefer small groups of select friends'. Now in real life, and in the view of all my peers, I could be a selfish, lazy, unsociable, unhelpful, uncommunicative bastard; but I won't learn that hard truth through Myers Briggs because the whole focus of the test sets up an illusion. You could read it the other way to as an extrovert and in real life be a loud mouthed, opinionated prat; but Myers Briggs allows you to be at peace with the reflection of yourself it presents, precisely because it does nothing other than present you with your own flattering opinion of yourself.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
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Posted
For what it's worth - an aside ...
in a previous life I was admin for training for a number of people, including a group of already highly qualified psychologists. It was noticeable that, in order to use testing procedures such as this, they found it necessary to go on expensive training courses.
Blackbeard, whose background is in physics and engineering.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I think it's all right, and probably quite useful, as long as one doesn't take it too seriously. Also, it's very important to remember that there are other important dichotomies that it doesn't measure at all, kind or unkind, selfish or unselfish, generous or grasping, honest or dishonest, practical or impractical, realistic or theoretical, how self-obsessed a person is, etc.
It's also important to realise that people who are 'like me' are not necessarily better than people who are 'unlike me'. I recall a good man, now deceased, who was serious, strongly ethical and very musical. He found it quite difficult to believe that somebody else who was a sensitive and creative classical musician, was nevertheless a complete heel in the way he treated his wife. He assumed that if the man was so musical, it must be his wife's fault when he ran off with a floosie.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
... If INTP's are unethical, then I wonder why the **** the majority of moral philosophers (indeed, philosophers in general) have had that personality type. I doubt anyone would call Aristotle or Kant uninterested in ethics, or unethical, but if you want INTP poster children, there you go. ...
Nobody has any idea what Aristotle or Kant's MBTI profiles were, nor Julius Caesar's, nor Shakespeare's nor that of any other famous person from history. Those books or websites that purport to list 'famous people who were XXXXs' merely reveal that their writers are facile.
Nor does anyone know what the profiles are of famous living people or the recently dead, unless the famous person has taken a test - in which case the person who administered it should not be divulging the result. So claiming that the Queen, George W Bush, the late Margaret Thatcher, Eleanor Roosevelt or Pope John Paul II are examples of various types is equally phony.
What these speculators have usually done, is selected the famous people they like or admire, and assumed they must therefore have the same profile as themselves. They've then chosen some people they don't like very much and allocated them to the profiles they find it hard to work with, get up their noses or their ex-spouse was.
[ 26. April 2013, 22:37: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Jesus was evidently INFJ
It's just so right.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
I think through questions by talking (orfeo = extrovert)...even though I have an extremely messy mind and desk (mudfrog=introvert) even though I would be immediately aware of spelling mistakes but not care (?)
Yep, give me taurus any day..
Mudfrog misled you by suggesting only INFJs have messy desks. INFJs are weird for being J but still having a messy desk. That doesn't mean that all people with messy desks are introverts.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I liked Belbin. Came out as a Plant. Which was no surprise to anyone I worked with (or as one put it, "sometimes against".)
There is a variant on MBTI called Margerison-McCann. Similar to Belbin and also helpful for team-building and understanding.
It (ahem) uses a questionnaire as well ...
That's the most recent one I've done. I was one of those weird people who split their preferences across the disk.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I think you're still missing the point. It's not about having preferences within the Myers Briggs format, it's about the whole function and result of a test; the result of which is simply to hold up a mirror to your own opinions about yourself, and you will almost always interpret them in a flattering way. As an example, you might discover that your personality is highly influenced by your leanings towards introversion (which you will have already had some idea of) and most people will understand this as 'I need time to recharge my batteries', 'It's good for me to spend time alone during my day' or 'I prefer small groups of select friends'. Now in real life, and in the view of all my peers, I could be a selfish, lazy, unsociable, unhelpful, uncommunicative bastard; but I won't learn that hard truth through Myers Briggs because the whole focus of the test sets up an illusion. You could read it the other way to as an extrovert and in real life be a loud mouthed, opinionated prat; but Myers Briggs allows you to be at peace with the reflection of yourself it presents, precisely because it does nothing other than present you with your own flattering opinion of yourself.
No, you won't learn those things if you have that mindset, but I simply don't agree with this idea that everyone walks around interpreting themselves in the most flattering possible way to begin with. I sure as hell don't. Most people I know don't. I only know one or two people that arguably DO go around flattering themselves.
I don't understand why anyone would think the job of this kind of test is to deal with those kind of issues in the first place. It's not an ability test. It's not a quality of functioning test. It's not telling you whether you're expressing your personality in a healthy or unhealthy way. Complaining that a personality test enables deluded self-flatterers to go on flattering themselves is like complaining that a heater is faulty if it doesn't fix the leak in your roof.
But any decent one won't simply say "here you go, here's your label". All of the better works on these kinds of things point out both the strengths AND weaknesses of a personality type.
The work-based ones are making the fundamental point that a team needs lots of different kinds of people precisely because of this. By far the best book on the Enneagram I ever saw was persuasive precisely because the detailed description of a personality type encompassed not only all the best things about myself, but also the worst things about myself, and made clear that I was capable of both.
[ 27. April 2013, 00:07: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Jesus was evidently INFJ
It's just so right.
New to this instrument so thought I'd have a go
ESTP* - does ^^ explain why I'm atheist then?
*Some of it sounds like me - the better bits I ought to let others who know me judge
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
INFJ here, and for what it is worth my desk is very tidy.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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