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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Catholic Church in Engand
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ncnative
Apprentice
# 17721
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Posted
Hello and thanks for allowing me to join the Ship! I recently read an article in the Catholic Herald which explained that the CoE considers itself to be the Catholic Church "in England," the exact same Church that had existed prior to the reformation, and exists still as that same Church - or I think that's what the article was saying.
Assuming that is the claim that the Church of England makes, what then do they consider the Roman Catholic Church in Engand? an unnecessary duplicate of what is currently available? a "pretender" of the Catholic faith in England? or something else entirely?
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NC Native
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Some of the more Anglo-Catholic end of the CofE have been known to identify it as "The Italian Mission".
Most of the CofE is more likely to accept it as one of a number of expressions of the cathollic church in England, and not to worry about which is more "authentic" or in line with the pre-reformation church than the other. Many in the CofE, I suspect, would regard continuity with the pre-reformation church as a doubtful virtue in any case, and something that polite christians just don't talk about.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
The Italian Mission to the Irish, naturally.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
Welcome to the ship ncnative!
catholic means universal. The CofE is part of the one church of Christ and is therefore a Catholic Church. Not to be confused with the big c Catholic or Roman Church as the spell checker on this borrowed iPad is. Grrr.
The continuity of the Bishops is the bit about being Episcopal.
I suppose it's been a bit of a muddle since Henrey VIII.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
I'm sure there are many opinions in practice, and I doubt there's only 1 official answer.
I would argue that since the CofE claims to be part of the universal church, and also recognizes that 'the Church of Rome' is part of it, then there is no duplication, unnecessary or otherwise. They are the same thing.
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The Preface to the Declaration of Assent (made by all priests, deacons and lay ministers when they are licensed to a particular sphere of ministry) states the official position of the Church of England: quote:
The Church of England is part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, worshipping the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds, which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. etc...
The fact that most parish churches and cathedrals have maintained the worship of the Church (albeit with some radical and less radical changes at times) since long before the Reformation, and usually display lists of Rectors and Deans, as well as Bishops, which span that period, implies that the C of E does not see the changes of the Reformation, and the breach with Rome, as breaking the continuity. It has never denied the catholicity of the Roman Catholic Church but the 39 articles do say that 'the Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this realm of England' (quotation from memory). This is of course a political and not a theological statement.
The C of E is represented in mainland Europe - there is a 'Diocese in Europe' - but only by chaplains and chaplaincies (theoretically for expatriates). It does not have territorial parishes there because it assumes that the local church (which except in northern Europe is usually the RCC or the Orthodox) has that responsibility. So yes, it does see itself as the default 'Catholic Church' in England but, at least nowadays, accepts the right and the validity of other churches to share that role.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ncnative:
Hello and thanks for allowing me to join the Ship! I recently read an article in the Catholic Herald which explained that the CoE considers itself to be the Catholic Church "in England," the exact same Church that had existed prior to the reformation, and exists still as that same Church - or I think that's what the article was saying.
Assuming that is the claim that the Church of England makes, what then do they consider the Roman Catholic Church in Engand? an unnecessary duplicate of what is currently available? a "pretender" of the Catholic faith in England? or something else entirely?
Being cynical I suspect this may be not unconnected with Property. If the Church of England thought it wasn't the legitimate heir to the pre-Reformation Catholic Church in England, then it would have to give all the pre-Reformation church buildings and associated land back to Rome ...
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
ncnative, can you give a link to the Catholic Herald article?
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by ncnative:
Hello and thanks for allowing me to join the Ship! I recently read an article in the Catholic Herald which explained that the CoE considers itself to be the Catholic Church "in England," the exact same Church that had existed prior to the reformation, and exists still as that same Church - or I think that's what the article was saying.
Assuming that is the claim that the Church of England makes, what then do they consider the Roman Catholic Church in Engand? an unnecessary duplicate of what is currently available? a "pretender" of the Catholic faith in England? or something else entirely?
Being cynical I suspect this may be not unconnected with Property. If the Church of England thought it wasn't the legitimate heir to the pre-Reformation Catholic Church in England, then it would have to give all the pre-Reformation church buildings and associated land back to Rome ...
Neh, the pope signed it all over in exchange for English support in some war or other.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
The English Reformation under Elizabeth I . purged our church of heresy, but did not create a new church. It is about time we had another reformation because the C of E hath erred, much like Rome, Antioch and the rest.
[ 20. June 2013, 01:34: Message edited by: Indifferently ]
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
If you want to find which various innovations and superstitions the English Church found her self correcting at the Reformation, please read the Thirty Nine Articles, which are now all but banned from study for those allegealy taking orders these days.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
The Church of Christ is a mission to loads of groups you hate, it seems.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by ncnative:
Hello and thanks for allowing me to join the Ship! I recently read an article in the Catholic Herald which explained that the CoE considers itself to be the Catholic Church "in England," the exact same Church that had existed prior to the reformation, and exists still as that same Church - or I think that's what the article was saying.
Assuming that is the claim that the Church of England makes, what then do they consider the Roman Catholic Church in Engand? an unnecessary duplicate of what is currently available? a "pretender" of the Catholic faith in England? or something else entirely?
Being cynical I suspect this may be not unconnected with Property. If the Church of England thought it wasn't the legitimate heir to the pre-Reformation Catholic Church in England, then it would have to give all the pre-Reformation church buildings and associated land back to Rome ...
As well they should ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Plique-ŕ-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The English Reformation under Elizabeth I . purged our church of heresy, but did not create a new church. It is about time we had another reformation because the C of E hath erred, much like Rome, Antioch and the rest.
Why do you go to church when everything they do is alienating you?
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
No. The effeminate homosexuals are with the Anglo Catholics as Evelyn Waugh pointed out in his famous epigram
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Plique-ŕ-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
Recusants being those who remained Catholic during the long years of persecution. How meaningful is it to say that the Catholic Church serves Catholics?
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
quote:
effemirate homosexuals
I understand that homosexuals generally try to avoid attracting attention in emirates.
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
If you want to find which various innovations and superstitions the English Church found her self correcting at the Reformation, please read the Thirty Nine Articles, which are now all but banned from study for those allegealy taking orders these days.
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently (here):
I either attend a Prayer Book parish where there is no Peace or conservative Anglo-Catholic circles
How very odd.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ncnative:
. . .
Assuming that is the claim that the Church of England makes, what then do they consider the Roman Catholic Church in Engand? an unnecessary duplicate of what is currently available? a "pretender" of the Catholic faith in England? or something else entirely?
Both are 'successor' churches to the pre-Refomation church serving communities with different post-Reformation trajectories.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
Immigrants? Like the Lord and His Earthly family?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
If you want to find which various innovations and superstitions the English Church found her self correcting at the Reformation, please read the Thirty Nine Articles, which are now all but banned from study for those allegealy taking orders these days.
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently (here):
I either attend a Prayer Book parish where there is no Peace or conservative Anglo-Catholic circles
How very odd.
It's because conservative Anglo-Catholic churches are likely to be ABC (in terms of Resolutions)...
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
If you want to find which various innovations and superstitions the English Church found her self correcting at the Reformation, please read the Thirty Nine Articles, which are now all but banned from study for those allegealy taking orders these days.
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently (here):
I either attend a Prayer Book parish where there is no Peace or conservative Anglo-Catholic circles
How very odd.
It's because conservative Anglo-Catholic churches are likely to be ABC (in terms of Resolutions)...
Also many ACs do subscribe to the Article. Our previous PP did. They are perfectly Catholic and patristic, only correcting errors which had crept in mostly after the great schism.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by indifferently:
quote:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
You make your brand of church sound like the BNP at prayer. At least you will only have to change one letter for your new book. I wonder what the 'n' could stand for?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Also many ACs do subscribe to the Article. Our previous PP did. They are perfectly Catholic and patristic, only correcting errors which had crept in mostly after the great schism.
I have never known any conservative Anglo-Catholic parish that shows any reverence for Articles XXII, XXV or XXVIII. Not without performing Newman-esque contortions, anyway.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
Returning to the OP, what we appear to have is one church which asserts to be part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the other which asserts to BE the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I have frankly no idea how you square that circle.
What do I, safe in my little corner of the CofE, call Roman Catholics? I call them Roman Catholics. Not Catholics, because that general, wider term includes me.
Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
Returning to the OP, what we appear to have is one church which asserts to be part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the other which asserts to BE the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
. . .
The Roman Catholic Church does not claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church subsists in the Roman Catholic Church.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Arch Anglo Catholic
Shipmate
# 15181
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Posted
That's an interesting point; is it also asserted that the whole of such a church is contained within the RC Church or that other churches may also be part of that One Holy etc?
Posts: 144 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Sep 2009
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
So you could be in the RCC but not the OHCaAC, whereas the reverse is not the case; one cannot be in the OHCaAC without also being in the RCC. Is that what you're saying is the RCC position?
There was a discussion here about this a few weeks ago, wasn't there? I seem to remember IngoB (and maybe others, sorry!) noting that the official RCC position had changed at Vatican II in the early 1960s, so other churches were now regarded as valid in some sense and folks in those other churches could be within God's salvation (and also therefore presumably within the OHCaAC. Or not?).
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
That's an interesting point; is it also asserted that the whole of such a church is contained within the RC Church or that other churches may also be part of that One Holy etc?
The RC Church is the 'smallest' body in which the fullness of the Church is 'contained'. Other 'churches' may be 'ecclesial communities' containing, as it were, elements of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The CofE, for example, might be said to be a church in an adjectival sense.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
If the Roman Catholic Church in England is an anomaly - because there can be only one manifestation of the Catholic Church in one locality at one time - then so, logically, is the Church of England abroad (or at least in Catholic countries).
The architects and stained glass artists of the Middle Ages were more than a little prophetic in contriving to make Christians live - or at least worship - in glass houses. Prophecy became irony when the Reformers started throwing stones.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
I think the CH article mentioned in the OP may be here. It's a sequel to this one.
Comments which follow both articles are mostly the usual polemic. Some of those posters might consider Pope Francis' comments on Christian unity at his most recent general audience. To quote briefly:
"Unity is a grace we must ask from the Lord so that he would free us from the temptation of division, fights among us, selfishness and complaining about each other – how much damage, how much evil that chatter creates.”
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
No. The effeminate homosexuals are with the Anglo Catholics as Evelyn Waugh pointed out in his famous epigram
I'm not sure they have a monopoly with regard to that one!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Dr William Oddie is the sort of Roman Catholic who makes me think the Rev Ian Paisley and the monks of Esphigmenou aren't quite as batty as they look! I doubt Pope Francis has ever heard of him, but with friends like that to defend one, who needs enemies.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
No. The effeminate homosexuals are with the Anglo Catholics as Evelyn Waugh pointed out in his famous epigram
To which I reply, Axios!
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Indifferently
I have no idea how many homosexuals (effeminate or otherwise) there are in the British RCC compared with other denominations, but as for your other comments, they have the ring of truth. Catholicism obviously became a missionary church in the UK once its presence and safety were acknowledged and accepted in the 19th c. But its growth in the UK is mostly driven by immigration, and that seems as true today as it was in the 20th c., if not more so. Mind you, the RCC has always seemed comfortable with the idea of exporting priests around the world. Catholics are often stereotyped as right wing, but it makes little sense for them to be presented as anti-immigration. Migration is part of their modus operandi.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
Immigrants? Like the Lord and His Earthly family?
Well, much as I hesitate to agree with Indifferently, in England the RCC for much of the last couple of hundred years was largely composed of recusants- that is, English people from families (quite a lot, in a few areas of the country) which did not (lastingly) accept the Reformation- greatly augmented with immigrants from other parts of the British Isles (mainly Ireland) and elsewhere (notably Italy, then Poland), and their families/ descendants, and then people who had converted to the RCC for one reason or another.
So I don't think there's anything inaccurate or derogatory in saying that recusants and immigrants have been the historic core of English Roman Catholicism. But to identify the RCC in England now as being solely a church for recusants, immigrants, and converts is to ignore the extent to which it has developed from those roots. (And indeed, as ken and others would tell you, the influence of more recent immigration on the CofE in some areas.)
[ 20. June 2013, 13:34: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by ncnative:
Hello and thanks for allowing me to join the Ship! I recently read an article in the Catholic Herald which explained that the CoE considers itself to be the Catholic Church "in England," the exact same Church that had existed prior to the reformation, and exists still as that same Church - or I think that's what the article was saying.
Assuming that is the claim that the Church of England makes, what then do they consider the Roman Catholic Church in Engand? an unnecessary duplicate of what is currently available? a "pretender" of the Catholic faith in England? or something else entirely?
Being cynical I suspect this may be not unconnected with Property. If the Church of England thought it wasn't the legitimate heir to the pre-Reformation Catholic Church in England, then it would have to give all the pre-Reformation church buildings and associated land back to Rome ...
And the RCC couldn't afford the upkeep of all these church buildings.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ncnative:
Hello and thanks for allowing me to join the Ship! I recently read an article in the Catholic Herald which explained that the CoE considers itself to be the Catholic Church "in England," the exact same Church that had existed prior to the reformation, and exists still as that same Church - or I think that's what the article was saying.
Assuming that is the claim that the Church of England makes, what then do they consider the Roman Catholic Church in Engand? an unnecessary duplicate of what is currently available? a "pretender" of the Catholic faith in England? or something else entirely?
AFAIU I think the difference in self-identity lies in that the CoE considers itself a viable expression of the Universal Church, whereas for Rome, communion with the Roman see, under the papal authority, is the definiton of the Universal Church. For Rome, the CoE is a heretical church because it does not place itself under the jurisdiction of Rome. For Rome, there is only one Catholic Church, and that is itself. For the CoE, there is the Catholic Church, and within it, there is itself.
It's a different definition of Catholic in that the CoE defines it as all those following Christ, whereas Rome defines it as all those following Rome.
When the Church of England was created the Roman adherents were considered traitors, rather than heretics. Christians who adhered to the authority of Rome would have been considered part of the universal church, but an enemy of England, after Pope Pius V issued his Bull in 1570 declaring the Roman Church the enemy of Elizabeth I, dedicated to her overthrowing.
After that situation resolved itself after 1766 with the Pope choosing to end his Papal 'war' against the English Crown, the issue of treason died down. Though Britain still continued to see adherence to the CoE as being more loyal to the Crown than adherence to Rome. But after centuries of peace, even this suspicion has faded. I think the CoE would not see the RCC as a pretender or duplicate to the title of 'One True Church', since the CoE doesn't recognise such a concept, even if that's how Rome views things themselves.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I liked this from the Oddie article:
quote:
throughout the Anglican communion, openly gay bishops are now seen as quite normal
Presumably Fr. Oddie has fallen through a wormhole from a parallel space-time continuum?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
Returning to the OP, what we appear to have is one church which asserts to be part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and the other which asserts to BE the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
. . .
The Roman Catholic Church does not claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, but that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church subsists in the Roman Catholic Church.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Educate us all, then, CL...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
oh please don't.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Educate us all, then, CL...
The word "subsist" refers to the visible bounds of the Church. It was a technical point - Rome and all the Churches in communion with her are The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The exact boundaries of the OHCAC are however open to question (we know where the Church is, we don't know where it isn't) as certain bodies possess characteristics that suggest they are valid, if schismatic, local Churches, i.e. valid Holy Orders and sacraments, hierarchical structures, etc, such as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. There has been absolutely no change in Rome's assertion that she is The Catholic Church.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The exact boundaries of the OHCAC are however open to question (we know where the Church is, we don't know where it isn't) as certain bodies possess characteristics that suggest they are valid, if schismatic, local Churches, i.e. valid Holy Orders and sacraments, hierarchical structures, etc, such as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox.
Okay, thanks for that. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Seems us charismatic free church folks aren't about to be considered 'valid' by the RCC. Ah well....
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
I am referring this to the admins.
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:
...Though Britain still continued to see adherence to the CoE as being more loyal to the Crown than adherence to Rome. But after centuries of peace, even this suspicion has faded...
But - possible tangent- the association of the RCC with foreign influence lingered for a long time (and possibly does still in places). You can see it in some of the reservations about the ECSC/EEC in the 1950s, 60s, and 70s- I believe that at some point the UK government felt it necessary to explain that the Treaty of Rome had nothing to do with the Pope. (Actually, the EU owes quite a lot to Roman Catholicism- it was heavily influenced by postwar Christian Democracy and you can see the influence of Catholic Social Teaching in some of its social policy, as well as in the concept of subsidiarity.)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Educate us all, then, CL...
The word "subsist" refers to the visible bounds of the Church. It was a technical point - Rome and all the Churches in communion with her are The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. The exact boundaries of the OHCAC are however open to question (we know where the Church is, we don't know where it isn't) as certain bodies possess characteristics that suggest they are valid, if schismatic, local Churches, i.e. valid Holy Orders and sacraments, hierarchical structures, etc, such as the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox. There has been absolutely no change in Rome's assertion that she is The Catholic Church.
So would it be fair to say: The RC Church is the 'smallest' body in which the fullness of the Church is 'contained'. Other 'churches' may be 'ecclesial communities' containing, as it were, elements of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Roman Church is a 19th century mission church which serves immigrants, recusants and effemirate homosexuals.
I am referring this to the admins.
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
Quite right too: he completely missed out apostates from protestant reformed religion, like myself. I do so hate being left out.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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