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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Am I doing it right?
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Yes, I know that's what all parents ask. But I'm wondering about my situation, having nobody to ask but you folks, since the real life people around here all have axes to grind (in various contradictory directions, to screw up a metaphor). Forgive the long screed that follows!
A lot of you know that my son LL's school has just diagnosed him autistic. This is based on social awkwardness with exact-age peers (he does great with adults and little ones), on Tourette-style tics both vocal and physical (mercifully, these are decreasing!), and on general geekiness. The situation is complicated by the fact that autism is the diagnosis du jour and by the fact that one of LL's teachers is a Very Unpleasant Individual who seems to have it in for him or his parents or possibly both (and in consequences pushed very hard for this diagnosis, though she is not making accommodations either). Frankly, nobody is making any accommodations or doing jackshit--because he's a straight A student without trying, and would be straight A+ if he could just remember to turn his homework in on time. [The most we've been given is a once-a-week hour long class on social skills. His classmates are obviously autistic, and I'm not sure the fit is all that good, though it will do him no harm to have special coaching, or to learn acceptance of people who are obviously different. So we're leaving him in it.]
The pediatric neurologist says no autism (though he offered to say Asperger's symptoms if I wanted him to, which I emphatically didn't!). The local school district testers say "atypical" but have elected to put him under this diagnosis as basically the closest they can come.
My gut feeling is that he is not neurotypical, but neither was I--lefthanded, synesthetic, mild OCD-like symptoms during childhood, clumsy, socially awkward and bright enough to know that fact about myself. LL is dismayingly close to the kid I was. The only difference is, he hasn't had the shit beat out of him the way I did, which maybe forced me to find ways to blend into the background. Nor is he suicidal, the way I was. Thank God for that.
He is empathetic, very adaptable, loves people, and has interests that span heaven and earth.
Which leads to my question--
LL has gotten in the habit of using me as his all-purpose dictionary/encyclopedia, mostly in the car. What I mean is, we'll be driving along, and suddenly he pops up with "What's the most expensive dye in the world?" (prompted by some random thing he heard in Sunday school). I say, "well, I think it's Tyrian purple," and we go on to have a 15 minute chat about methods of dying cloth with shellfish, and what the archaeological finds tell us, and the way that ancient fashion pushed the shellfish toward extinction. Which may then morph into a discussion of ecology...
Another day we're cooking and he wants to know why onions make your eyes water. Which leads to a discussion of chemicals plants use for self protection, and how cooking inactivates these, and the reasons why the invention of cooking means that human beings can eat things that other animals cannot, ending up with a discussion of cassava.
We've also recently had a six-session impromptu review of world religions.
Now I can do this stuff because I'm a total geek, and I've been soaking up random information in as many fields as possible since I was his age. BUT I KNOW DAMNED WELL that other parents, presented with these questions, would probably either say "go look it up" or find a more (or less) polite way to say "too geeky, dial it down and stop asking so many questions." I know I've gotten shocked and disapproving stares from random strangers who overhear our discussions and consider that I am encouraging his nerdiness to the nth degree. Closer to him, we have relatives who feel this way.
Did I say he's eleven?
By the way, the school district pegs him as merely "above average" in intelligence. Ha to that. I'm easily in the genius range, and he's giving me a run for my money.
Is there something else I should be doing, to do the best I can for him? As various people seem to think, should I be discouraging rather than encouraging his geeky questions and information gathering?
PS my own mother frowned on my big words and geeky interests, because I didn't fit in. She thought she was doing her best for me. Years later, I don't think it worked though...
[ 28. April 2013, 21:30: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
Personally, I think the so-called diagnosis of autism has become diluted through overuse. My nephew has also been labeled with it. He also is incredibly bright (his ability to juggle numbers in his head is stunning). It has been applied to so large a spectrum of children as to become practically meaningless.
For what it is worth, I see nothing wrong with your question and answer sessions. I always think it a major mistake to discourage children from learning. But I think he does need to work on socialization with his own general age-group. I suspect the problem there is that he is "different." He can relate to adults and younger children because they are already different from him and, therefore, accept that he is different. It is within his own age cohort that it becomes a problem.
The thing is, even within his age cohort, there almost certainly are other "different" children who will appreciate him for what he is (assuming he is willing to accept them for what they are--artists, poets, whatever). But he will never find them if he doesn't socialize (and take the accompanying risk of being laughed at or made fun of). Growing up is a damn hurtful business and I, for one, am glad that I am past that stage. But it is a necessary stage.
quote:
...ending up with a discussion of cassava.
As one does.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Only you can know if you're doing it right. I'm going to go out on a limb here and play devil's advocate (see I can mix metaphors horribly too ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Take this as internet advice offered by a stranger who knows jack-shit about you and your family-but hey you asked.
Accepting the school's diagnosis(just for the sake of objectivity) and your belief that your son is exactly like you then it seems that you too are autistic and hence going to find it extremely difficult to understand exactly what it is that neurotypical people find "unacceptable" about your son. So that's going to be an ongoing challenge for you in any attempts you make to assist your son and to deal with the school and other agencies etc. You might consider whether somebody to help you do this would lead to better outcomes for your son.
Every child needs their parents to be their advocates and support. Good on you for being this for your son. When I read your OP and others about your issues with school though I get a strong whiff of my son and I are sooo uber-clever that the school is too dumb to deal with us, combined with a dash of "they're out to get us".
You can come across as taking an intellectually superior stance to teachers and other parents for that matter. Problem is, this stance isolates you and your son further from mainstream education and other families -ie the sort of people your son needs to mix with and get along with if he is to develop socially. Most importantly your son picks up on this attitude and he gets very mixed messages about school which at the very least must be disconcerting.
If your child is too gifted for mainstream education and the school hates you and won't accommodate your kid's needs, or even one of these factors is the case, then the only option AFAICT is to home-school your child.
There is no problem with encouraging your son's intellectual curiosity, far from being abnormal or outside the academic sphere of non-geniuses, what you describe is the very model of educated, middle class parenting and I see it ALL the time. If people are looking disapprovingly, it might not be for the reasons you think.
On the question of specific things you can do to help your son, most parents encourage their children's social development by facilitating playing and socialising with peers, through play dates, family picnics, outings through church etc, sporting teams, boy scouts, summer camp etc. So try getting him into sport and other activities where he's with other kids.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Ouch.
Maybe I am autistic. I did think of that possibility, and I've done the online tests and asked people who know me (everything says no so far, though I'm asking my shrink next month)
And maybe I am coming off as a conceited asshole. I hope not--I've had minimal contact with the teacher in question (one teacher, not the whole school by any means) precisely because I can't trust myself not to respond with hostility. But it's pretty damn hard to keep cool when she tells me that my son would never survive in any other school setting and he survives in this one purely by the mercy of his schoolmates.
ETA: we've got him in Scouts, he's doing well. We've got him in church with other kids, ditto. We can't do sports due to a connective tissue disorder.
[ 29. April 2013, 01:09: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Lamb Chopped: As various people seem to think, should I be discouraging rather than encouraging his geeky questions and information gathering?
I am above average intelligence (as I guess are many people on the Ship), and I would gather geeky information too. Not so much through questions, but looking in atlases and encyclopedies. My parents didn't discourage me, but they also made me play outside from time to time. I am still grateful for that: they encouraged my intelligence, but also stimulated me to do non-geeky things.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Sorry, after I hit post I thought ooh should I have done that. As I said though, internet advice from a stranger take it with a grain of salt.
quote:
And maybe I am coming off as a conceited asshole.
That's not the issue. The problem I was trying to allude to but didn't do so well is that you might be ignoring real problems that need attention by saying "the problem is not that my child struggles socially but it's because we are so intelligent the school just doesn't know how to deal with us." Similarly, you're encouraging your child in problematic behaviours if you're sending him the message that his aberrations are the result of superior intelligence and that intelligence is something that you obviously value very highly.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
The best thing you can do for your son to help him deal with the world is foster a healthy, comfortable relationship between the two of you, and it sounds to me like you are doing exactly that.
He probably can't expect to find any other person whose way of looking at the world so closely matches his own, with whom he can talk so freely. Trying to second-guess your relationship because it's not typical sounds like a great way to do the wrong thing for the right reason.
The only thing I can suggest is to see if it works to include in your discussions topics like how to get along in the world and what it's like to be so far out on the tail of several curves. I think your main goal should be to help him mature, which would mean helping him to develop his own perspective on the world around him and find his own place in it.
It's a sad commentary on our society that you would feel any pressure to tell your son "stop asking so many questions."
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
Homeschooling might be an option, Lamb Chopped, if you and/or your husband have the time. You might already know other homeschooling parents through LCMS or other local congregations; it's become quite common. And it doesn't mean isolation from other young people; it's quite common for homeschooled kids to get together for sports and field trips. I myself have seen it have good results.
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I work with adults who have autism (and various other disabilities). Your 11-y.o. doesn't sound autistic to me, but I am not a diagnostician, and nobody can do this through 3rd-hand accounts anyway. That said, real autism usually shows up earlier (and usually more emphatically) than what you've described. He also doesn't sound like the few Aspies I've worked with, though I can see some overlap. I may just have had the misfortune to work solely with highly unsociable and oppositional Aspies.
He sounds like me (and you) at age ll (except we're female). The questions, the geekiness, the far-ranging discussions, the linking of apparently unrelated topics . . . it sounds like all that's "wrong" with LL is he's very bright. He likely won't fit in anywhere until at least college (did you?), except in a group of similarly-minded nerdy geeky peers. If you're in or near a largish city, check for a MENSA chapter near you; in big enough places, there are sometimes Young MENSA groups.
It's probably worth your while to chat with him periodically about fitting in, and get a sense of how much that's mattering to him as he enters puberty - adolescence - the-hell-that-we-confuse-with-high-school-in-the-US (which is where you are, right?)
If he's being tactless and/or persistent in his questions/comments in Nasty Teacher's class (From your description of him I'd be surprised if he weren't), chat with him about zipping it during that period. Few 11 y.o. have much of a grasp of their potential for getting under adult skins.
Can you switch him out of the Nasty Teacher's class? (I'm assuming he's hit middle school.)
From your description, my favorite niece might have been like your son, and similar noises came forth from the school in 7th grade about autism and Aspergers. I helped her parents compose a request to the superintendent of schools requesting that she take her math with the 9th-graders instead of with the teacher (and another parent, long ugly story) who was lobbying for diagnosis. Niece was thrilled, her teacher shut up, and all went well for the rest of her middle-school. Things went to hell in high school, but that's what public high school is for the majority of US adolescents who attend it.
What does Nasty Teacher teach? Especially if it's a subject he loves, put him with a different teacher for that subject. What I find, as I evaluate students (way older than yours, and significantly more atypical & preparing to leave high school for adult services, so what do I know?), is that some teachers are control-heads and simply cannot abide students who . . .
(A) are forever asking questions which may seem to Teacher to be overly time-consuming and/or wildly off-topic, but which seem to Student to link up with something else he's been thinking or reading about, and
(B) are way smarter than they are, and
(C) who have not yet learned enough social savvy not to say things out loud that appear to the teacher to be critical or challenging of something she's said or done.
Some teachers simply cannot cope with this.
Few schools have any money these days for services for gifted/talented kids. Are there any geeky after school clubs -- chess, computers, science, or whatever interests him most academically? That's where he'll find other bright kids to "fit in" with.
I wouldn't discourage his questions and explorations, but I would try to coach him about when, where, and with whom to raise these.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I wouldn't discourage his questions and explorations, but I would try to coach him about when, where, and with whom to raise these.
Exactly this ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Also, there's a certain glint in her eye generally possessed by those people who have found that they are more intelligent than most people around them but who haven't yet learned that one of the most intelligent things they can do is prevent said people ever finding this out.
Terry Pratchett describes a young Esme Weatherwax
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Um, not sure how to take that last one. I hope it doesn't mean I'm being obnoxious again?
Maybe I should say I nearly didn't write the stuff about intelligence, because I've been taught to hide it all my bloody life, and in particular because I'm female. (Mom taught me to blend into the background very young, and to dumb down my vocabulary and never, ever talk about anything that "normal" people don't talk about. Later on I had quite a few people advise me to read fewer books and watch more TV so I could understand the culture properly. I nodded my head like a dutiful student.)
And I'm still doing this today, with the partial exception of the Ship. The truth is, most of the people I work with have no idea that I have a doctorate, I don't belong to Mensa, and there are two people in the world who know my IQ--myself and my mother. (and now you--it's either 168 or 186, Mom couldn't remember which way the digits went.)
So I'm not just mouthing off (though for all y'all know, I could be a total liar, it's the Internet you know). But I wanted to get your honest opinions, because I do think the intelligence thing plays a factor in this whole mess, and I thought I should give you all the facts.
This is also why I'm feeling so damn nervous about how I'm handling my own kid--should I give him the same advice and severe upbringing I endured? Will he blame me later for not forcing him to hide his differentness? I know Mom meant it for good, and so did the various people who told me to hide my light (I see you smirking back there!) under a bushel basket. But I've spent my life second-guessing myself--and I don't want him to do that.
Really, I wish I had a crystal ball.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Forgive me the multiple posts as I try to catch up with what I missed while at work...
The school issue is well on its way to being settled one way or another. I mean whether we pull him out and put him in public school or not. I really appreciate the advice, I think we're probably now heading for an inevitable ending and the question is just how to make it come out as well as possible.
In short, they refuse to remove him from her classes (it IS a small school, so maybe I shouldn't blame them) and I can't see this changing, in spite of the Friday meeting I've got with the principal. So it's most likely public school next year (can't afford another private, can't homeschool due to work hours and LL's intense desire to be around other people all the time. Mr social butterfly, he is)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Porridge, you've nailed why I can't believe the autism diagnosis. I have a brother who is a classic Aspie and he and my son are like night and day. The big ??? for me are my son's extreme sociability (yes, he's awkward, but that doesn't stop him from trying to connect with anybody and everybody!), his wide-ranging interests, and his easygoing, change-anything-you-want, I'll-just-roll-with-it attitude. That just doesn't say autism to me.
I think you've got it with regards to Nasty Teacher too. My kid is pulling perfect scores in her class, and from what the district observers say, he's doing it without even seeming to pay attention. I think that's driving her insane. (Yes, I do think he's got a mild case of ADD--no hyperactivity, but definite distractibility whenever he's bored--which he reports is all the time in that class. We've done the maternal lectures on good manners and appearing to be interested (while reading under the desk) but he's only eleven, I expect he's crap at a good hypocritical show.)
Point in evidence: someone (I'm guessing LL, but he won't admit it) asked if it was okay to work ahead in the English book. She announced to the whole class that this was NOT okay, as she "wanted the whole class to be at the same place." Meh.
And yes, English is one of his favorite subjects--outside the classroom. He writes stories and poetry, and has just finished the Harry Potter series and is meditating an attack on Tolkien.
Frankly, I don't think there's anything to be done about the woman. She is what she is, and there's no changing her. But I'm worried about letting LL go through another year of coping with her.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Last post and I'll shut up for the night. I like the geeky clubs idea, but the school doesn't have any (very sports oriented and relatively small). Another reason to go public I suppose.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I can't really comment on a lot of the thoughts here but I will say that LL will go through a phase of blaming you anyway, whatever you do - and as he is 11 now it ain't that far off!
...and I think you're right about the teacher, there is no way on this Earth that she is going to change, she has invested too much in being "right" to be able to afford to change.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Learning to pass for normal is a helpful life skill. Raw intelligence is like nudity, seen as peculiar or down right offensive depending on the public context - best reserved for those who will appreciate it.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
There are also many, many different kinds of intelligence. It's a useful skill to be able to see and value each other's.
Our society often values academic intelligence above all others - I think that's a mistake.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I've worked with a sociable Aspie, who was diagnosed as ASD (by a psychiatrist, not a school). I'm not keen on the D bit of ASD. For some people at the far end of the spectrum, yes, it's a disorder, but at the other end that spectrum shades into "normal"(or typical) or simply just one more way of being different. And very bright, inquisitve children can also be a bit different; weak teachers can find them a bit unnerving.
I don't see that you're doing anything wrong. What others have suggested about boosting the socialising is fine, if he enjoys it. I'd be very unhappy about him staying at a school where he's been labelled that way, but perhaps you have no alternative. But, then, I wouldn't get too hung up on the bright/genius label either. Based on what I've seen in my own family, I'd say stick to the Mueller/Dweck line on praise when he does well.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I think that a personality clash between pupil and teacher is something that most children will experience. We hit something similar when my son was 10. If my daughter had had the same teacher, there wouldn't have been the same problem, as my daughter could keep her head below the parapet, but it all made for an unhappy year for my son. Like you, we were casting around for solutions, including a club for gifted and talented, but fortunately the problem improved the following year under a different teacher, and we didn't actually do anything.
How much longer does LL have this teacher?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
There are also many, many different kinds of intelligence. It's a useful skill to be able to see and value each other's.
Totally agree.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Our society often values academic intelligence above all others - I think that's a mistake.
Initially I agreed with this and a lot of people think this is true, a diminishing number of schools act as though it is true but on reflection IQ is pretty irrelevant in how society views you.
Like everyone, I like having a high score (although the last time I did this I was 12 and apparently childhood IQ isn't a particularly good indicator of adult IQ) rather than an average one but in the real world of having a happy life, healthy relationships and a fulfilling career, there is no difference in having an IQ of about 95 or 195. Emotional intelligence is actually much more valued in society than the artificial measure that is the intelligence quotient. Then let's not even go to skills in singing, dancing and sporting prowess which are certainly remunerated very highly, if that's a measure of how we value certain skills.
Tourette's style verbal and physical tics are going to be a much greater barrier to being valued by society, than, say an IQ in the lower range of normal (ie not intellectually disabled but less than 100).
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Yes, you are right - I should have said 'our school system'.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
Some teachers are simply hostile towards intelligent children. When my younger daughter was in junior high school, there was an algebra class for eight graders who were considered ready for it. The teacher was new and disapproved of having such a class.
When she taught something new and asked for questions, every question was met with, "I've just been explaining that. I thought you were supposed to be so smart." Naturally, the kids stopped asking questions, and almost all of them failed to grasp the fundamentals of algebra. My daughter never made up this deficit. She did fine in geometry, trigonometry and calculus, but she never really understood algebra.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yes, I do think he's got a mild case of ADD--no hyperactivity, but definite distractibility whenever he's bored--which he reports is all the time in that class.
Huh? Who isn't distractible when bored?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, yeah. But nobody but his homeroom teacher (blessings on the man) is willing to consider giving him extra challenges. Let alone skipping a grade or two.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
I have no experience of autism or Asperger's so expect what I say will be of limited value, but your son is more than his diagnosis or non-diagnosis. As a person you and he relate well together and I think it's a priority to encourage that. If he needs you as a dictionary and you're able to fulfil that need for him, continue to do so. One of the most important things, IMO, is communication and I've always made it a priority with both Nenlets. Nenlet2 had big problems at school and I didn't deal with them in the best way. Because we have good communication I've been able to talk to him about that and he understands that I did what I believed was best at the time, which is all anyone can do.
He's a young man of 21 now and we've just spent 2 hours together over coffee talking about all sorts of things. May you always enjoy a good relationship with LL.
Nen - feeling she's done a very poor job of trying to encourage you.
[ 30. April 2013, 16:35: Message edited by: Nenya ]
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Several things. First, I don't think a school, and/or school teacher has the skill set nor the actual diagnostic testing resources to make a diagnosis.
Second, diagnosis is a on a continuum. Few Real Human Beings are a 'pure type' of anything. The diagnoses are prototypical descriptions that many so-called normal folks will find a bit descriptive of them.
Third, culture is underplayed in the melting pot. If there is a cultural background different from the mainstream prototype....
Fourth, today extroversion is considered Very Good and what everyone should aspire to. Constitutionally introverted people are more likely to be considered for diagnosis, particularly depression, obsessive-compulsive issues, anxiety.
Fifth, diagnosis doesn't stand aside for growth and development. Some people diagnosed with very bad sounding things grow up and don't 'meet the criteria' any more.
Sixth, mostly the only time I like diagnoses like this is when it provides access to additional or helpful educational resources. Sometimes the diagnoses are merely labels which the school may use to justify lowered effort, resources or attention to then child.
Finally, I am not sure what "neurotypical is. In a typical battery of neuro-cognitive tests, everyone shows some strengths and some weaknesses.
I spent a long evening explaining compound interest to my well adjusted now 25 year old, who was about 9 at the time. Also biological evolution, Mohammed versus Buddha versus Jesus versus the Earth Spirit, the differences between baroque and later symphonic developments particularly people like Beethoven, how oil is turned into plastics and liquid poured into coffee, plate tectonics and seafloor spreading, multiple regression, among other things.
It is probably worth saying that the old rule for child achievement and intellect was to count the number of books in the house and see if the parents set examples by reading them. My kids are better adjusted and smarter than I am (pats dog).
I don't want neither to minimize nor overdo the appraisal of what you're doing and what your child may or may not 'have', but I suspect you are doing it generally right, while recognizing that your child should do some investigating on his own and learn to take some calculated risks. Both of which are less emphasized in the current Zeitgeist.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
As a person you and he relate well together and I think it's a priority to encourage that. If he needs you as a dictionary and you're able to fulfil that need for him, continue to do so.
I disagree with this a little bit. Not that the relationship isn't vital, because of course it is, but for the sake of his own work ethic it might be a good idea to have him go do his own research and *then* have the conversation about it with you. Smart kids are already so little challenged in school- especially in the younger grades where there isn't much in the way of advanced or honors classes- that it's fatally easy for them to get lazy. It might do him good to do some digging for his own answers instead of going to Momipedia. The old-fashioned way, in books, if possible, because Googling is too darn easy too.
As far as his difficulties in school- as a bright kid who loves facts, does he correct adults in public? If he does it in class, it could drive an insecure teacher nuts.
If he is a genius, then sadly a lot of the authority figures in his adult life are going to be dumber than him as well- the sooner he can work out how to deal with them tactfully, the better.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Ugh. He's been snapping at classmates on and off, as I learned today. The teacher says "we all have our days." But I don't know if this is normal puberty teenage oh-crap, or something I need to worry about (beyond the duly delivered lecture on patience and manners).
Wish I had more experience...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Generally when he starts the Question-a-Rama, if it's just a simple fact ("what does 'smug" mean?") I'll answer it, because it's a bore to have to look up three-four words a page, and once you know how to use the dictionary, there's no added benefit.
But if it's something that needs thinking through, we generally do Socratic Questions. I admit this started as a way of figuring out whether he was really keen to know the answer, or was just flapping his gums and didn't really care at all. Anybody willing to put up with a course of Socratic questioning from me is clearly either nuts or very interested. And he puts up with it and gives some really insightful answers most of the time--and when he's off base, that at least tells me where we need to clear something up.
But it's not spoonfeeding, poor child. Mr. Lamb just looks at us and shakes his head.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
if it's just a simple fact ("what does 'smug" mean?") I'll answer it, because it's a bore to have to look up three-four words a page, and once you know how to use the dictionary, there's no added benefit.
As an interested educator, what sort of things is he reading that require clarification of 3-4 words per page?
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
I think you sound like a great mum in terms of being approachable, and able to keep up with a mind that zips around and has real fun with ideas. That's obviously why your son feels comfortable coming to you for rambling chats.
[ 01. May 2013, 02:43: Message edited by: loggats ]
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
He's just been reading HP and the Deathly Hallows, and 85% of what he's asking me turns out to be British slang. The 3-4 word rate is probably overstatement unless he's in dialogue heavy bits.
[ 01. May 2013, 02:51: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
He's just been reading HP and the Deathly Hallows, and 85% of what he's asking me turns out to be British slang.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
He's just been reading HP and the Deathly Hallows, and 85% of what he's asking me turns out to be British slang. The 3-4 word rate is probably overstatement unless he's in dialogue heavy bits.
Is English his mother tongue?
Perhaps you might be able to help him most by encouraging/teaching him to infer the meaning of a word from its context. This skill is really vital to literacy, without it, you're really not comprehending what you're reading.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Wish I had more experience...
Don't we all? And it's not as though having one child necessarily gives you the experience to cope with the quirks and oddities of a second child. Plus learning from others mistakes just means you make different mistakes.
I have just finished reading an autobiography of a woman whose parents rationed her to one question a day when she was a child. Her opinion of her parents' parenting skills was low.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Wish I had more experience...
Don't we all? And it's not as though having one child necessarily gives you the experience to cope with the quirks and oddities of a second child. Plus learning from others mistakes just means you make different mistakes.
This is true for teachers too. Every child is different, every child has different needs and abilities - we have to get to know each one.
As far as reading fluency goes, have you thought of giving him the audio books to go along with the written text? - this can really help with deducing meaning from context.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Although at one level, teaching forms a large part of my daily work (teaching work-specific skills to staff, teaching clients skills they need to manage themselves & their lives), I have now a grand total of 2 semesters' formal teaching experience at a junior college. Therefore, my observations may be worth 2-3 of the pixels forming this message.
What I find is that teaching actually consists of an enormous amount of on-the-fly assessing of "How is this particular learner understanding the topic at hand, is there anything in that way of understanding that's going to trip him up as we proceed, and what, if anything, needs re-conceptualizing, and how do I introduce that material in a way that this learner can grasp and apply?"
I can just about manage this one-on-one with staff & clients on my good days. How Real Teachers manage this in a roomfull of 30-40 kids (or adults) year after year after year Makes. My. Head. Swim.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
He's just been reading HP and the Deathly Hallows, and 85% of what he's asking me turns out to be British slang. The 3-4 word rate is probably overstatement unless he's in dialogue heavy bits.
Is English his mother tongue?
Perhaps you might be able to help him most by encouraging/teaching him to infer the meaning of a word from its context. This skill is really vital to literacy, without it, you're really not comprehending what you're reading.
I don't think that is what she is talking about. I have read the Harry Potter books to grade 3, 4, and 5 English first language students and found that I had to stop quite often to explain words and phrases that simply aren't in common usage in North America.
I typically ask if anyone can figure out the meaning and sometimes one or two students in a class of 25 is able to get an idea of the meaning from the context. Sometimes I would just explain the idea and other times I would help them to work collaboratively to catch on to the meaning. From time to time, I have realised that the whole class has missed an important element that I did not appreciate was outside of their understanding.
I believe that there is a version of this series where the language has been modified but we always read the UK versions.
With regard to the topic at hand, I have had many very similar conversations with young people. I don't find any of the examples that Lamb Chopped has given to indicate anything out of the ordinary for a child of this age.
Personally, I would be giving him a small notebook to carry in a pocket of his backpack and, if he was getting too intense or asking questions at inappropriate times, I would give him a cue word to say that he should write it down for later. I've used, "Hold that thought" with loads of students. They quickly catch on that their voice is not the only one to be heard. If I then ask if anyone has any further questions, he may or may not bring it up but he has learned to filter a bit. Writing down a question to look up later is a great strategy for life long learning.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
I always liked trying to puzzle out furrin slang in kids' books. My Dad traveled for work quite a bit and used to bring me books from England, Australia, NZ... Adrian Mole was a stumper for sure.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
I guess it'll be at least a decade before he's wondering about the slang in Clockwork Orange...
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As various people seem to think, should I be discouraging rather than encouraging his geeky questions and information gathering?
No, no, absolutely not. He is smart and interested in the world. Why on earth would you want to discourage that in favour of having him learn the minutiae of the latest teen pop star / soap opera du jour, or whatever? Keep encouraging him to be interested.
Having said that, it would be good for him, I think, if you could wean him on to doing his own research as well as just asking you and assuming you have the right answer. (I don't think the discussions you have sound quite as didactic as this, but he needs to learn to do his own research and to develop the critical thinking skills to understand whether the answer he found is likely to be correct.) This will probably happen naturally, because he will start to ask questions that even you can't answer off the cuff
And never discount the value of knowing random weird stuff. It's surprising how often some bit of esoteric trivia turns out to be useful.
On the "doesn't socialize well with kids his own age" thing, don't worry about it. School is a completely unnatural environment - in the real world, I socialize with friends, colleagues and family of all ages. It sounds like LL is an introvert, and will never be the life and soul of the party. That's OK. As long as he's polite, looks at people when they talk to him, and develops enough social graces to make appropriate conversation when required, he'll be fine.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
From experience, you manage the lower years as best you can, and then look forward to some wonderfully fruitful years in the 6th form and at university level where they come into their own with like-minded friends.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
To answer your original question, you'll never know. I used to think I would know when my kids got into therapy, but it turns out that there was always at least two ways of doing it, and by choosing one you never find out about the path not taken.
Certainly, I have the conversations with my kids. Especially in the car. Why would you not? It's interesting.
From a UK point of view, I'm stunned they've gone ahead with an intrusive diagnosis like that without taking your feelings into account - as I've mentioned to you before though, the label is chucked about more loosely in the US.
And, my son had a melt down today and stayed at home from school. I called the school and said he wouldn't be coming back till a few things were sorted out. But how do I give him a usable amount of self-confidence?
How can I give him some 'not caring what people I don't even like think of me'?
How do I help him have an appropriate expression on his face, so he doesn't piss people off?
How do I teach him to express his feelings rather than stay measured and blank?
I took him to an ed psyche last year, who said he was in the top end of very bright, but not brilliant. He can be whatever he wants, but he'll have to work at it.
Sadly, right now he's too depressed to work at anything.
I must have accidently contributed to his lack of self-esteem, lack of social confidence, anxiousness.... but I've no idea if it was crap parenting or genes.
Got to keep going, keep communicating, keep reassuring, keep hassling school to not let him go under the radar, keep not blaming myself too much cos it's counterproductive. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
*hugs* I think when it comes to self-esteem, confidence, etc people waaay overestimate the influence of parents and way underestimate the influence of peers. In his mind it may go "Well, she has to love me, she's my mom. But nobody my own age likes me!"
IOW don't blame yourself. I've never met a kid who genuinely didn't care what their schoolmates thought of them.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
He's just been reading HP and the Deathly Hallows, and 85% of what he's asking me turns out to be British slang. The 3-4 word rate is probably overstatement unless he's in dialogue heavy bits.
Is English his mother tongue?
Perhaps you might be able to help him most by encouraging/teaching him to infer the meaning of a word from its context. This skill is really vital to literacy, without it, you're really not comprehending what you're reading.
I don't think that is what she is talking about. I have read the Harry Potter books to grade 3, 4, and 5 English first language students and found that I had to stop quite often to explain words and phrases that simply aren't in common usage in North America.
I typically ask if anyone can figure out the meaning and sometimes one or two students in a class of 25 is able to get an idea of the meaning from the context. Sometimes I would just explain the idea and other times I would help them to work collaboratively to catch on to the meaning. From time to time, I have realised that the whole class has missed an important element that I did not appreciate was outside of their understanding.
Yes, that's all quite normal, but your example has no bearing on the situation with LL. A child with a genius IQ should breeze through HP and by the time even an average child gets to the last book of the series, they should be so familiar with the vocabulary there would be no need to clarify 3-4 words per page.
In Australia I have taught gifted classes of 9/10 year olds (children are bright but I wouldn't believe any of them are geniuses) and whilst I'll grant there is more overlap between British and Australian English than US English, these children just don't struggle with the vocab and they can infer meaning from the context. Neither do they have significant problems fitting in with their peers.
It is for this reason I asked about mother tongue-the disconnect between vocabulary and reported IQ seems to me to be significant enough to warrant further investigation. Of course if English is a second language then that puts everything in a different perspective.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I actually haven't reported his IQ, just my impressions. Which you could easily put down to doting motherhood (though they've been confirmed by people whose judgment I trust, but I could be wrong in that, too, of course).
And the 3-4 words a page was not meant to be a sober straight statistic, I really didn't hover over him enough while reading to give you that. It's based purely on memories of having him ask me several times in a row "What's a poncy git?" and a minute later "How about a chipolata?" and five minutes later "Why are muggles calling Ron 'Ginger'?" The slang and unfamiliar cultural items (I think a chipolata is a sausage or something, right?) were a bit troublesome. (and yes, I realize there's no one page in Harry Potter where all these words occur together, I'm going off memory and general impressions, okay?)
To be fair, as I think back on it, he was reading two chapters a night and asking perhaps five questions during a night. So my off-the-cuff estimate was clearly wildly wrong, and you should treat everything else mathematical I say with a high degree of suspicion. (hangs head)
Meanwhile, back at the ranch...
On the way home today I got treated to an enquiry into February 29 and what one does if born on that day; the relationship of chronological age to educational grade; the need for intercalary (?) days in order to bring the solar/lunar cycles into synchrony; and how other civilizations have handled the matter. At which point we pulled into the driveway and I got "I'm SO hungry!" which derailed matters.
I like the idea of the notebook, it should have occurred to me (but didn't) that if he's asking me these things, he may well be annoying his teachers in class this way. Gotta ask about that.
Come to think of it, I recall him telling a brand new (first-year) teacher that George III may have had a medical problem (she was apparently lecturing on the wrongs of the American colonists and the culpability of the king, and LL thought she wasn't being quite fair to him) and this apparently got under her skin. LL couldn't remember how to say "porphyria" though, and came home and asked me. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I can imagine the scene. It would be much better if he learned to keep his mouth shut at school, at least until near the end of high school.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Taliesin, I'm so sorry. I wish there was a magic answer for both of us. It hurts when we can't help them. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
I'm heading to a family reunion next week where my own mother is almost bound to drive me crazy trying to do remedial parenting on me--she flipflops on LL and his status, but the latest theory she's imparting is always something Dire. And I'm pretty deep in depression and can't handle the doom and gloom.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
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Posted
Well, I think you're doing great, LC.
My two cents worth:
I have a niece who is very much of a genius. She got her PHd at Stanford when she was 24, but only because her mother insisted that she stay at her grade level in school and graduate with classmates when she was 18. At elementary level they would bus her for certain classes to the junior high. And for junior high, she took all the high school math classes at the high school. Tiny girl, too. When my sister saw my normally smart daughter playing violin, it made sense, and she started her daughter on viola. One can never plumb the depths of music, no matter how smart you are. My niece graduated high school, an awkward, conceited girl who didn't fit in well with many, went to Stanford, on to Rice for grad school, and now teaches people much older than she, as well as does research where she is a rare female in a male dominated field. She is now quite well adjusted, happy, helpful to her grandparents, and a pleasure to be around and talk to.
Most people mature eventually.
Prayer helps. Music probably does, too.
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Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Ooh, music. Yes, we've got piano and percussion going. A good thing too, as they force him to actually work for something.
[ 02. May 2013, 19:43: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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