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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: No: He/she is dead. Not passed. Fucking Dead.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
We had a suicide (again) at my school this morning. That usually means the student is dead. Fucking dead. It hurts for those who love him, but there's no use fuck-arsing around with wussy platitudes. He has not passed away or passed or passed on or passed over to the other side. He has died and the result of that is that he is dead.
But the d-word is not allowed. Even from the chaplain.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of passing over to the other side ...
Yeah, right.
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
This is Hell but ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
indeed
But quite right, dead. Use the proper word: it's the only way of facing it. My mother-in-law, excellent person though she is in so many ways, never uses the word dead. You could've stepped on a landmine and she'd still say you passed away.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Perhaps the most sinister-sounding euphemism I've come across is from my wife's Exclusive Brethren family: 'taken' ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
Dead in Christ. Dead in the hope of rising to new life. Dead by man, that by man all might be made alive. Resting in the grave which Christ has sanctified "to be a bed of hope to thy people".
There's nothing to be avoided there: embraced, rather.
"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
For the student who has died, for Zappa, for the whole school community.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
So sorry to hear that, Zappa.
Yes. Dead. It's the best way to describe someone who's dead.
However, I reserve the right to use "croaked" and "carked it" when appropriate.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Ah, euphemisms. Without them, we never would have got Monty Python's parrot sketch.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Whole-hearted agreement here. I hate the phrase "passed away" and all its dainty prissy-mouthed relatives.
First of all, the person hasn't "passed" anywhere; s/he, especially in the case of suicide, is going to be smack in the forefront of his/her friends/relatives/everybody's cerebral cortex for weeks if not decades as they wrestle with "Why?". I'm still having bad dreams about a client who shot herself back in 1994, and she didn't even die.
Second, death, even when anticipated, expected, and recognized as merciful to the dying when it arrives, is brutal for everyone else concerned. In the case of accident, murder, and suicide, this brutality is multiplied exponentially. Failure to acknowledge this brutality is a mewling, craven attempt to deprive survivors of their right to all the rage, grief, fear, guilt, bewilderment and whatever else they may be feeling in the aftermath.
"Passed away" is right up there with that other hideous euphemism, "She lost her battle with Dread Disease X."
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
[crossposted with Cooked Oats ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ]
People are afraid of words. Even to the point of never saying them. But I call them as I see them.
Death
Cancer The Big C WTF? Even cancer nurses never use that word, for fear of upsetting the patient. I did, and upset the nurses.
Voldemort.
[ 30. July 2013, 12:19: Message edited by: PeteC ]
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
for the deceased's family, friends, the school community and Zappa
When my other half died I got really angry when faced with "passed away" - and made sure every official (NHS, DHS, undertaker, etc) was put right.
Even worse is "lose/lost" ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
You lose car keys - not the person you love.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
[crossposted with Cooked Oats ]
People are afraid of words. Even to the point of never saying them. But I call them as I see them.
Death
Cancer The Big C WTF? Even cancer nurses never use that word, for fear of upsetting the patient. I did, and upset the nurses.
Voldemort.
My sister is a doctor. When she was a junior doctor she had her first experiences of having to give people a cancer diagnosis. Her initial approach was to do this by explaining very carefully in detail and using proper medical terms what was happening to the person, but avoiding the word "cancer".
The trouble was, she'd get to the end and they'd say "Oh well, Doctor, at least it isn't cancer!"
I also remember her asking her SHO how to deliver a bad prognosis to one patient, and his replying "Tell him to take his library books back."
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I think the phrase 'passed away' is all right when used of an elderly person who gradually becomes weaker and weaker, and finally dies. It's very wrong in any other situation
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
When my other half died I got really angry when faced with "passed away" - and made sure every official (NHS, DHS, undertaker, etc) was put right.
Even worse is "lose/lost"
You lose car keys - not the person you love.
I am also a widow, and when my husband died he was lost to me. He was no longer there.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Yes.
But last year, when a close friend died - shockingly and unexpectedly - I found myself struggling to say 'she's dead'. This feeling persisted for weeks.
I too had railed against the prissy euphemism. Until it was me facing the stark, unforgiving reality of my friend's death.
I can say it now. She's dead.
Yet I couldn't, for some time, after her actual death.
It takes one a long time to accept reality.
And I don't think I'd have reacted well to someone telling me off for not being able to move on from the euphemism.
I did, eventually. I can say it now. She's dead.
That doesn't excuse your school, though.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Zappa using passed on is just avoiding the reality of what has happened.That is something we need to avoid ,even if it means saying the word dead.
Blessings Zappa to you & your school
PaulBC
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
I am torn, I love Zapada and agree with him but the ruling tenent of my ministry has been "It is better to be kind than right."
Dead is right. "Insert platiude here" is kind. My wife is recently bereaved and I find myself avoiding the "D" word because (as has been pointed out) she can not bear it yet.
Pyx_e, wishing he had the balls to say "gone to glory" a bit more often, it has such a great ring to it!
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I'm afraid I never understood the difference between "passed away" and "dead" and why people get so upset about the two. I always assumed they meant the same thing.
As a Christian, I do not believe death is the end. Something happens after death. The dead pass on to something else.
So why do Christians have such a problem saying "passed on"?
They are indeed dead. But they have indeed passed on.
What's the difference?
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
The word dead and being kind are not mutually exclusive.
Nor is the word dead necessary to identify pain and suffering with those facing that reality.
I would acknowledge our anger, our pain, our fear and our guilt. I would curse the substance abuse, the relationships, want to kick the shit out of the black dog and give space for screams of injustice. And I would rail against a God who lets this occur.
And probably I would weep.
The word dead is less useful than a scream of fuck.
I suspect the school may frown upon that too.
X post.
Evensong, passed on and other euphemisms are a softening of the reality. They may provide false comfort and hope. May is an important word and I suspect for you they do not.
[ 30. July 2013, 13:27: Message edited by: Patdys ]
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
As a Christian, I do not believe death is the end. Something happens after death. The dead pass on to something else.
1. Not everyone you encounter will be Christian.
2. Not all Christians believe in an afterlife.
3. When dealing with someone recently and abruptly bereaved, please consider that person's beliefs and feelings ahead of your own.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
I once called a friend task how his wife was getting over surgery. "She's dead!" was the reply... I can't think of anything else he could have said that would have let us move ahead quickly, and somehow, it worked. The euphemisms and occasional misinformation don't work for me. "Gone to glory" sounds great, but are you sure? What is glory anyway? Life can be glorious, too.
I'm not immune to it. When I was told I had metastatic melanoma, it took me about a week to take in the full meaning and say "cancer" as well. It's still cancer; just a major confounded bloody nuisance, a bit like death, but more complicated.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
So why do Christians have such a problem saying "passed on"?
I can only speak for myself, but I object to it because it sounds so passive. Death is such a massive wrench away from the living. Even if you believe with all your heart that they are now elsewhere, there is no one quite so aggressively gone as someone who has died.
I first found myself articulating these thoughts when I read an account by a survivor of the Bismarck, talking about friends who had passed away. I don't believe anyone passed away on the Bismarck. They were blown to pieces, suffocated, burnt to death, drowned, torn apart ... no one passed anywhere.
Yet I also admit to dual standards here. When my closest friend and the father of my two godsons died, I had no trouble telling anyone he had indeed died. But the text from his wife said that he had "gone", and that was how I broke it to his ex-wife and the boys. I could only, just, say "gone" and even then my voice was trembling. I could not have finished any sentence with the word "died" in it.
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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Edith
Shipmate
# 16978
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Posted
I remember as a child the passing bell being tolled when someone died. We counted the number to see how old the person was and usually got it right.
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Edith
Posts: 256 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2012
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Do you think they don't know their loved one is dead? Do you think you are doing them a favour by making it clear, just in case they had not figured it out?
They will figure it out, in their own time and at their own pace, one day they will accept it all.
It must be that proven point that telling a anorexic they are skinny or a alcoholic they drink too much or a smoker to quit will magically MAKE IT ALRIGHT!!!!
Ha, thank God for this thread, the answer is clear, just tell people the truth. That is why all the great teachers never bothered with stories or parables, let them have it BOTH BARRELS, He’s DEAD you sad delusional weakling, just come to terms with it and move on, NOW.
Thank you all, off I go to tell people the truth.
Fly Safe Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
We could try telling people the truth as they understand it. While I try to avoid the disparaged phrase, when bereaved people use it with me, I just listen. Listening is often an appropriate alternative to truth-telling, and I'm pretty damn sure that's what Zappa & Pyx_e (and various others) have been doing for lo these many years.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I am torn, I love Zapada and agree with him but the ruling tenent of my ministry has been "It is better to be kind than right."
Dead is right. "Insert platiude here" is kind. My wife is recently bereaved and I find myself avoiding the "D" word because (as has been pointed out) she can not bear it yet.
Pyx_e, wishing he had the balls to say "gone to glory" a bit more often, it has such a great ring to it!
I agree with this. It's a question of context and sensitivity to the other person. Some people want their euphemisms, and I feel OK with that, and I don't want to rip them away, so that they feel more raw.
Better kind than right - I like that. We have one in therapy - better to relate than be right.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
Zappa using passed on is just avoiding the reality of what has happened.
No it isn't. What the fuck else does it mean than "died"? Jesus, you people have hearts of stone. If someone is having a hard time saying "dead" and would rather say "passed on" who the fuck are you to tell them to "get over it"?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Just echoing mousethief - people going through mourning and bereavement actually do need to avoid certain things for a while, as they can't deal with it all at once.
It's absurd for someone else to come along and say, oh no, this is avoidance! Absolutely criminal in fact, and I can tell you, fucking dangerous.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Yes. My aunt died last week, and the fact that my family can easily say to each other 'auntie died/is dead' really does illustrate how much we struggle to care. it's such a short word - it's brutal.
my sister's friend called to tell her that her eldest daughter had died suddenly and dramatically. 'we've lost D' she said, and my sister had an absurd reaction - lost her? where? but she knew really.
If we aren't children, we know really.
As a trainee teacher I tackled euphamisms head on, with a sense of smug self righteousness, I expect.
I use the word 'died' with closer friends very carefully, a stark reality, when I am definitely the person in the room with most pain, most shock. And when a loved member of our church died very suddenly this year, we all confidently spoke of 'Gone Home' and 'Gone to Glory' without a shred of self-consciousness.
I think, Zappa, your desire to brutally say 'dead' is very illustrative of your own pain, and your knowledge that no one here can be hurt by it.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
Zappa using passed on is just avoiding the reality of what has happened.
No it isn't. What the fuck else does it mean than "died"? Jesus, you people have hearts of stone. If someone is having a hard time saying "dead" and would rather say "passed on" who the fuck are you to tell them to "get over it"?
sorry to double post. I am hearng the unmoved using words to be correct and avoiding rawness and realness that pissed Zappa off so much. Of course it's all relative.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
I too despise 'passed away', but for some reason don't mind 'departed this life'.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm afraid I never understood the difference between "passed away" and "dead" and why people get so upset about the two. I always assumed they meant the same thing.
What's the difference?
People you like die. When you wail, rend your clothes, and wonder what kind of a sick fuck God would kill your friends with cancer and car accidents before their 18th birthdays, they are dead. Killed. There's no passing on, no crossing the veil, just death.
People you don't actually like, or like only because they're related to you, or whom you just think need to hurry up and die already like a civilized lady or gentleman pass on, silently in the night, like a southern belle's farts—nobody ever has to care, nobody really notices it happening, and, if they do, they know enough not to say anything. "S/he passed on" is like "bless your heart;" if it's not part of your cultural tradition, you don't understand that it's actually an insult to the deceased. Here, a translation:
"Marylou passed on last night"
"Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that"
does NOT mean:
"Marylou is dead"
"I am genuinely distraught right now"
but rather
"I'm bringing the funeral salad"
"I'll grab some chicken from Church's on the way over. Now, remember, extra cherries on top, Robert likes those."
And, even if I know people aren't from my cultural background and probably don't share my set of implied slights, I still hear it—and, it seems, so do they. "Passed away" isn't something you say to make it go easier; it's something you say when that person has really and truly faded into the past and is no longer part of your life. It's a little nicety you use to act like you care because society says you should when, in reality, adding those extra three cherries to the top of the green marshmallow fluff because you might as well use up the rest of the jar shows more respect.
People you give a shit about die. People you're glad to have in their graves passed on. To speak the truth, even gently, even with your voice cracking, is to respect the dead and the life they were never allowed to have.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Deader than a dead thing in Deadville.
Best to use the words the most closely bereaved use themselves - take your lead from them.
Strangely, I find myself saying 'He's died' rather than 'He is dead' (which somehow seems an ongoing process rather than completely final, and therefore slightly more copable with - although I haven't particularly analysed why yet).
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I hate all those "passed" variations. Passed on, passed away, passed... They just get right under my skin and make me twitch.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
I recently learned that Spanish (at least Mexican Spanish) uses the euphemism se quebró (literally "cracked himself") to indicate that a loved one has gone to the great beyond.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ah, euphemisms. Without them, we never would have got Monty Python's parrot sketch.
When I die I want people to say that I am "pining for the fjords."
But yeah, people die, why are we so squidgy about it?
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Because people hurt badly from death, and so to an extent they mask it with euphemisms, with denial, with fantasy, and so on.
And they are very wise to do this, as it is part of the mourning (and healing) process.
And anyone who takes it upon themselves to interrupt this is a complete dingbat and callous to boot.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Because people hurt badly from death, and so to an extent they mask it with euphemisms, with denial, with fantasy, and so on.
And they are very wise to do this, as it is part of the mourning (and healing) process.
And anyone who takes it upon themselves to interrupt this is a complete dingbat and callous to boot.
This thread has gone from discussing a corporate use of an euphemism (see OP) to individual uses. I accept the use of euphemisms when you're dealing with individuals. But to say that a student has "passed on" when most likely the whole fucking school knows it was suicide is simply mamby pamby bullshit. I've been a teacher for almost 30 years (good god, how did that happen!?!) and have had students die. In every situation I can remember the official announcement was just that, no equivocating, no euphemism. But when dealing with grieving students on a one to one basis I used what ever words they needed to hear.
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
why are we so squidgy about it?
If you can't begin to understand I can't begin to explain.
Lewis says quote:
'Death doesn't matter.' There is death. And whatever is matters. And whatever happens has consequences, and it and they are irrevocable and irreversible. You might as well say that birth doesn't matter. I look up at the night sky. Is anything more certain than that in all those vast times and spaces, if I were allowed to search them, I should nowhere find her face, her voice, her touch? She died. She is dead. Is the word so difficult to learn?
Yes is is a hard word to learn, have mercy on me as I struggle with it.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Kyzyl
Fair enough. But you asked the question, why are we squidgy about death? So I thought I would give a (partial) answer, based on my experience. People are squidgy, because they feel very raw and traumatized on some occasions. Mourning can stir up all kinds of strange stuff, partly from childhood, so one approaches this stuff with some care.
But yes, I get the point about an institutional setting.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
I'm more and more inclined to hope that when I die I will also have been lost.
Which means to me among other things you're perpetuating life in the foodchain (unless you're in a volcano I suppose but even then ITSM it would be better than people mucking about with your body, after).
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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PhilA
shipocaster
# 8792
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Posted
Dead is dead. Passed on id passed on.
What you've really got to watch is when there is is a dress code or the funeral. It said 'somber', I read 'sombrero'. I looked a bit stupid, but then, its not the first time.
for anyone who has fallen off the last horse. Particularly children, and particularly suicide. Nothing is worse.
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To err is human. To arr takes a pirate.
Posts: 3121 | From: Sofa | Registered: Nov 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Deader than a dead thing in Deadville.
Best to use the words the most closely bereaved use themselves - take your lead from them.
Strangely, I find myself saying 'He's died' rather than 'He is dead' (which somehow seems an ongoing process rather than completely final, and therefore slightly more copable with - although I haven't particularly analysed why yet).
Spot on my approach and feelings. For myself, I do not care, but for others, I respect their sensibilities.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
My general preference is to use the word 'dead', but there are times when that word has stuck in my throat, either for my own sake or when I'm talking to the bereaved. I think a very real issue is what you feel you can say without sobbing - and, yes, I know it's all right to cry and all that, but I think people have to decide for themselves whether or not they are going to try and keep those floodgates closed in certain situations. For myself, I find it really embarrassing and inappropriate when I'm the one crying and the bereaved family are stoically quiet, so I'm prepared to make a big effort to avoid that.
But I just want to add, in the case of a young suicide, might it not be important for some public-speaking people to use the word 'dead' ? Hard for the family, I know, but I just wonder whether plain-speaking might not be the best tactic if one were worried about the possibility of others being inclined to follow the example. P'raps it wouldn't make any difference - I appreciate there's a lot more to the 'suicide cluster' phenomenon than the careless use of a few euphemisms.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I am torn, I love Zapada and agree with him but the ruling tenent of my ministry has been "It is better to be kind than right."
Dead is right. "Insert platiude here" is kind. My wife is recently bereaved and I find myself avoiding the "D" word because (as has been pointed out) she can not bear it yet.
Pyx_e, wishing he had the balls to say "gone to glory" a bit more often, it has such a great ring to it!
Thank you! This can apply to so many situations, not just the death of a person.
Sometimes the culture or subculture of the person's family will give us clues to the phrasing that is most kind to use (or most understandable to the bereaved).
Reaching out to others in their time of need is not the same as instruction about our preferences.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I think, Zappa, your desire to brutally say 'dead' is very illustrative of your own pain, and your knowledge that no one here can be hurt by it.
That's the feeling I'm getting from the OP too .
Bereavement creates anger, where suicide is concerned anger can be increased several-fold.
I suppose we're angry when a person has chosen to end their life because they are gone while we are left behind to deal with the pain of their loss.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Kyzyl
Fair enough. But you asked the question, why are we squidgy about death? So I thought I would give a (partial) answer, based on my experience. People are squidgy, because they feel very raw and traumatized on some occasions. Mourning can stir up all kinds of strange stuff, partly from childhood, so one approaches this stuff with some care.
But yes, I get the point about an institutional setting.
I actually agree with you, Aztec god. Think I was very imprecise with my first reply.
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think the Sally Ann phrase "Promoted" is the oddest I have heard.
Yes I agree that all concerned need to accept that the person is dead, deceased, no more, if they weren't nailed ... OK, the finality of death is important to acknowledge and grapple with.
How you actually deal with this in the circumstances of the event is a more complex issue, a pastoral one not a theological one.
And for this family
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Blog
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Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
I spoke to someone I hadn't seen for a long time - an acquaintance rather than a friend - and was told that her father had "passed". It took me a while to realise that she meant he had died. I've since heard "passed" a few times, and it still sounds odd.
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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birdie
fowl
# 2173
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Best to use the words the most closely bereaved use themselves - take your lead from them.
Absolutely, and remember everyone's different.
My Dad died last year. I've never used any other term for his death. For some this might be an indication that I don't care -
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
My aunt died last week, and the fact that my family can easily say to each other 'auntie died/is dead' really does illustrate how much we struggle to care.
For others, it's an indication that I do care, very much -
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
People you give a shit about die. People you're glad to have in their graves passed on.
As it happens, I do care. I love my Dad and I miss him very much.
I find the phrase 'passed away' somewhat irritating, but whatever gets you through....
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"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness."
Captain Jack Sparrow
Posts: 1290 | From: the edge | Registered: Jan 2002
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
Ah ... as a counsellor* I would use reflective listening, and therefore work with the words used by the counselee. But the context this little irritation arose in was in the staff room, when I was told to say a few words and that I was not to use the d-word.
Actually I did (and I don't think the principal is amused). I quoted Paul's "neither death nor life". I was tempted to say "neither passing nor dwelling" but somehow I felt even in translation "death" was closer to Paul's thanatos, and I'm a simple bible believing christian.
*As it happens the chaplains in this school - not just me but my predecessors and no doubt my successors - do not have a counselling role. The school psychologist does all that - and wonders why he's burned out. He also distrusts counsellors, even registered ones with lots of letters after their name.. No B.Psych. no listenee, see. He stayed away yesterday.
More than anything, even in hell, I appreciate the prayers.
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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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