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Thread: Wee cuppies, grape juice, Lutherans, and Episcopalians
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
This year it seems our neighborhood Lutherans are going to be homeless on Maundy Thursday and so the Episcopal church that I'm a part of is inviting them to do a joint service at our shack.
Anyway, their worship committee and ours met today to talk about what that would look like. Obviously, communion came up. Apparently they are used to using grape juice and wine. When we asked how that worked, they explained about the cups.
We agreed to use the common cup, and essentially to bless both wine and juice.
(Gluten-free bread which we use came up, but the Lutherans couldn't figure why someone would have to have gluten, so that's not a problem.)
My question is, when did Lutherans start using grape juice? Or have they always, and I just didn't notice?
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Lutherans historically use wine, and most continue this practice. Some places that use grape juice do so because of pietist heritage concerns and interactions with other pietists historically averse to alcohol (e.g. Methodists).
Your partner congregation probably uses wine for a different reason: to offer an alternative for alcoholics. I know, it's not necessary, but do keep in mind that the Lutheran Confessions offer many admonitions against receiving the Sacrament in one kind. Rather than taking this as a message that the Sacrament should be offered to the people in both kinds, it is often taken as a message that the sacrament must be taken in both kinds. In true Mainline fashion, we must be careful that no one feels excluded from anything.
For what it's worth, the ELCA statement on sacramental practices (The Use of the Means of Grace) might be helpful to you.
A word of warning: let your people handle the ablutions and storage or consumption of what remains. Just trust me.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
Our altar guild is doing set up and take down (stripping etc.) so not a problem there.
It was decided to start with their liturgy as a starting place to work from. I'd worry about that, except that I know our priest might be liberal, but they are doctrinally sound so something decent will end up in place. (And their priest doesn't like their liturgy.) My guess is that we will end up using elements of both.
We are going to do their music though. *shrug* We do all kinds of music, so that's not a big problem.
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
There is an oddity with the ELCA's Maundy Thursday liturgy of which you should be aware: the confession and absolution at the beginning of the liturgy allows for individual absolutions, much like coming forward for the imposition of ashes. It is optional, not required. In the 1970s, it was billed as the clear-cut absolution that one didn't really receive at Ash Wednesday, at which the language is a bit more vague.
Not that you asked, but here is Olaf's hybrid order of BCP79 Maundy Thursday + Evangelical Lutheran Worship Maundy Thursday:
- Processional Hymn
- Confession and Forgiveness. From ELW. Includes an introduction that serves as a counterfoil to the introduction before the lengthy confession on Ash Wednesday. Also includes a prayer of confession very similar (but not exact) to that of the BCP79.
- Omit the individual absolution. I have grown attached to this, but in your context, it might be a bit different.
- Kyrie and Gloria. Neither is specifically appointed in ELW or in BCP79. Use them if that is the normal practice in your Episcopal congregation. The Lutheran committee will wonder why the Gloria is being used, so you will need to explain. It is not specifically anti-Lutheran, as the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod's altar book allows this as an option on Maundy Thursday. If you are using the Lutheran confession, or at least using a confession at the beginning of the liturgy, then this is a fair compromise, in my humble opinion.
- Salutation and Collect. As usual for both rites. Use of "The Lord be with you" is allowed by Lutheran rubrics, although this particular Maundy Thursday rite gives a Pauline "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ..." The Lutherans won't bat an eyelid if you use "The Lord be with you," as we are used to that before the collect.
- Readings as normal
- Gospel Acclamation. The Lutherans will be used to an acclamation of some sort between the Second Reading and the Gospel.
- Sermon
- Hymn? In ELCA practice, a "Hymn of the Day" follows the Sermon. In my humble opinion, you could probably convince the Lutherans to transfer the position of this hymn to during the footwashing or offering, or before the Gospel.
- Footwashing. Appears here in both rites. Combine the ELW introduction and the BCP79 verses?
- Intercessions
- Peace
- The rest of the liturgy proceeds in the same manner in both ELW and BCP79, with the omission of the blessing and dismissal. ELW allows the Stripping of the Altar at the conclusion to be done to Psalm 88 or Psalm 22.
As you can see, except for the issues with the confession and absolution, you are dealing with virtually identical rites. It should be an easy mixture. That said, be aware that if the Lutheran pastor doesn't like their Maundy Thursday order, then that essentially means he doesn't like yours, either. (It's tough to find a Lutheran pastor who wants to do things "by the book" for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday. This is why Olaf almost always visits Episcopal places on these days.)
If you need any specific rubrics from the Lutheran side, I'd be happy to help. I've spent enough Maundy Thursdays in various Episcopal churches to know what is commonly done.
[ 04. February 2013, 00:31: Message edited by: Olaf ]
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
I don't think it's the order as much as the prayers. Apparently the Lutheran pastor thinks that they aren't accessible for the congregation. (Considering that we are using Rite I currently, I'm guessing we have a more forgiving congregation when it comes to this.)
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
Posts: 1907 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2004
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PataLeBon:
My question is, when did Lutherans start using grape juice? Or have they always, and I just didn't notice?
When they forgot they were Lutherans.....
I’m a pretty high church Lutheran from (and living in) Norway. There are some Lutheran free churches which use grape juice, but most uses wine. There is also some minor organizations that has a formal connection to the Church of Noway, and some of the congregations (‘praying houses’) use grape juice, but they are a minority. There are many examples of churches using wine which has had its alcohol percentage reduced, after the fermentation process. I don’t know of any of the historic Lutheran churches who uses anything but wine (reduced or not). There are some organizations within those churches who do, but if it is like it’s in Norway, these organizations are pretty independent.
In Norway some people within the free churches maintain that the wine used in the New Testament is not ‘fermented wine’ but just juice. When I see this claim, I always remember something a friend of mine once said: “The day I get drunk drinking a bottle of grape juice is the day I will agree with the view that the wine of the New Testament was non-alcoholic.”
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We had a Lutheran presiding at our Maundy Thursday one year and she had to be convinced about the necessity of reservation at the end - otherwise we had nothing left for good Friday.
Lutherans, it seems, don't reserve.
I believe some do, but it is my understanding that most Lutherans either do not receive the sacrament on Good Friday or simply have a 'normal' Mass (with consecration). I am myself training to be a Lutheran priest (in the Church of Norway we are called priests), and I am thinking about either not having communion or recerving. I will not have a 'normal' Mass on Good Friday.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
PataLeBon, I noticed you said the Lutherans were used to "grapejuice and wine". That usually means a few people request grape juice, as Olaf suggests. Perhaps the pastor has a pouring lip chalice. If so, that one could be designated for the grape juice and those few Lutherans who practice that form of communion could be directed to that communion distributor who could pour the grape juice into the individual glass.
We've been having a joint Maundy Thursday service with the local Episcopal and Methodist Church for a few years. In our (Lutheran) congregation, we only offer consecrated wine, but the Methodists use grape juice. We solved the problem by offering the wine in a ceramic cup and the grape juice in a silver cup.
Nice sign of unity, though, Chistians getting together for Maundy Thursday.
[ 04. February 2013, 15:58: Message edited by: uffda ]
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
We don't really have Lutherans in England, but I think over here your compromises may actually breach our canons. There are doubtless shipmates that will know more about this, but it's my understanding that we are required to use fermented wine and wheaten bread.
The usual argument is whether the parish prefers leavened bread or unleavened wafers. Both are allowed but people have a strong preference for what they are used to, and are often ready to defend it vigorously.
I think it may be permissible to consecrate with the rest of the bread, special gluten free bread or wafers for those that have to have it, but I don't think it's permissible to consecrate only gluten free bread for everyone, whether they require a specialised form of bread or not.
Churches usually use special communion wine rather than ordinary table wine. I think ours is fair trade. I don't think grape juice is allowed. There may be some sort of acquiescence for an ecumenical service to provide grape juice as an alternative, but if that is within the range of acquiescence at all, I suspect people must be able to choose to have proper wine.
I've no idea whether the canons permit wee cuppies, but I've never encountered them in the CofE. Jengie John might be able to comment on this, but usually, they are very much a badge of dissent.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Regarding the wine/grape juice issue Olaf is quite right. In my youth grape juice (Welch's) was used. I can't actually recall when the switch to wine was made. For some reason I've noticed that we are using a very sweet kosher red made in Israel. I would have preferred a nice pinot noir. We do not now offer juice as an option. There is a note in the Bulletin stating that if for any reason one does not wish to receive alcoholic wind, one can be assured that by receiving only the bread one does in fact receive both the body and blood of Christ.
Now regarding the bread......we normally use a pita-type bread unless the family who was supposed to provide the bread for the day forgot to do so. There is a supply of wafers in the sacristy for use on these occasions. The Pastor's wife, of Norwegian descent from the upper midwest, occasionally makes "communion bread" from a recipe used in her home church. It's rather like a very heavy whole wheat bread and slightly sweetish. Anyone else familiar with this???
Let me support Olaf's comment that the Episcopalians should deal with any unused portions of bread and/or wine. Thru Lutheran eyes, reserving the left over elements smacks of transubstantiation. Don't get them started......
I like the individual absolutions on Maunday Thurs. but it does take up a good deal of time.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
We don't really have Lutherans in England, but I think over here your compromises may actually breach our canons. There are doubtless shipmates that will know more about this, but it's my understanding that we are required to use fermented wine and wheaten bread.
I have been at Anglican Eucharists on ecumenical occasions where non-alcoholic wine/grape juice has been available. I have heard tell of Anglican churches which offer the choice routinely but that's only second hand.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well I have certainly seen wee cuppies at Local Ecumenical Partnerships(LEP), actually it was funny because chalice and wee cuppies were used and the vicar who was celebrating thought he had to lift both. For Anglican information it is frequently the case in non-conformist churches that there is a chalice with the wee cuppies. Either it is purely symbolic and used to be raised at the set point, or it is used by the minister (and possibly serving elders) while the congregation has glasses. If it is there it is that chalice that is raised and not the wee cuppies.
It was the local Anglican that forced us to offer grape juice* and gluten free bread at one an ecumenical communion (and then did not bother to turn up). If it had just been us and the Methodists we would not have had communion for starters. They insisted it was to be a communion service, asked for the extra provision and then made a point of not coming.
It was seen as just sheer rudeness by the elders.
Oh single cup appears more often than people think in the URC. It seems de rigeur for any communion that is not the regular one of a congregation. So single cup** at Maundy Thursday, Elders' retreat, valediction services, study weekends and General Assembly.
Jengie
*My congregation until fairly recently was wine only. No it is not unusually amongst former English Presbyterians. They still insist on good quality wine.
**Well single is too strong for Assembly ten to twenty chalices were used to serve around 500 people when I went.
[ 04. February 2013, 18:37: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Kayarecee
Apprentice
# 17289
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Posted
It seems that Lutheran congregations using (or not) grape juice is a congregation-by-congregation thing. I've worshiped at places where they used to use wine exclusively but have since added the option of grape juice as a response to the pastoral concerns around inclusiveness, and I've worshiped at places (including my current internship site) where wine is still used exclusively. Most of those latter places make some note, either in the service bulletins or through a verbal mention, that the full benefit of the Sacrament is received even if one only receives in one kind. I've never been somewhere that grape juice was the only option, but knowing the breadth and rich variety of liturgical practice in the ELCA, I'm not surprised to hear of it.
On the subject of announcements and notices, something you might want to keep in mind is that if the Lutherans are used to wee cuppies, some of them might not know what to do with the cup: stuff like whose hands go where, who lifts the cup, whether intinction is okay, etc. A few words about the mechanics of receiving that way could go a long way towards lowering the stress level and providing for a more reverent administration of the Sacrament which leaves more room for people to encounter grace in it.
[ 04. February 2013, 19:00: Message edited by: Kayarecee ]
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
Bit tangential but…
From my Presbyterian>>URC childhood>>youth I was used to symbolic chalice and small cups with real (communion) wine, and white sliced bread cut into cubes. In my Baptist youth I was used to the same with non-alcoholic wine, but occasionally a loaf to be broken, and Port wine on the youth group house party. In my Anglican experience I have only ever had alcoholic wine and either leavened bread or wafers (with gluten free option).
The one that I am still pondering is Church of Scotland communion which I have only been present for twice when both a large common cup and wee cuppies were in use (real wine again). I wasn't clear what process of discernment decided who had wee cuppies and who had common cup (we were offered common cup).
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Probably personal preference but do not say I said that.
That is the standard would be chalice but there were certain members of the congregation who object to this and they therefore are provided with wee cuppies.
I am of course guessing.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kayarecee:
On the subject of announcements and notices, something you might want to keep in mind is that if the Lutherans are used to wee cuppies, some of them might not know what to do with the cup: stuff like whose hands go where, who lifts the cup, whether intinction is okay, etc. A few words about the mechanics of receiving that way could go a long way towards lowering the stress level and providing for a more reverent administration of the Sacrament which leaves more room for people to encounter grace in it.
Seconded (and I abhor announcements). Depends on whether the Lutheran church uses a common chalice or not.
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Lutherans, it seems, don't reserve.
Like with Anglicans, it's more of a "some do, some don't" sort of thing. That said, one can expect it much, much more with Anglicans than with Lutherans. There is a Lutheran church with a large, shiny tabernacle front-and-center about 30 minutes from my house, but it's definitely not the norm.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PataLeBon
Shipmate
# 5452
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Posted
The Lutherans we are working with use a common cup for their weekday services, but when they do, they only use grape juice. So it's going to be more a shock to have a common cup with wine than the cup itself.
We don't reserve as we don't have a place to do so, and therefore just don't. (A previous priest had it taken out when they remodeled the church so it's very difficult to even find a place to put it!)
We use gluten-free bread due to a 4 year old parishioner who has a list of allergies so long that his dad once joked "well, he not allergic to fresh fruits and vegetables...yet!" He enrolled in Sunday School this year and started learning about communion and wanted to partake. (He hadn't previously due to his allergies.) It's important for us to use to use a common loaf of bread, so we switched recipes so that he could commune in one kind.
It's one of those situations that is hard to handle, especially when you have a 4 year old involved who probably wouldn't understand why Jesus' body and blood is "bad for his body".
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That's between you and your god. Oh, wait a minute. You are your god. That's a problem. - Jack O'Neill (Stargate SG1)
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Er, it's not Jesus's Body and Blood (the Substance of the Sacrament) that are bad for the kiddo's body, but rather the outward physical aspects of wheaten flour and distilled fruit of the vine (the Accidents in the Sacrament) that are the problem for the kid.
Surely any precocious four year old can grasp the distinction? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
The one that I am still pondering is Church of Scotland communion which I have only been present for twice when both a large common cup and wee cuppies were in use (real wine again). I wasn't clear what process of discernment decided who had wee cuppies and who had common cup (we were offered common cup).
From my experience, this is probably a situation where the congregation has 'traditionally' used the wee cuppies, but the minister prefers the common cup. The minister has therefore tried to reintroduce the common cup, but knows that many dislike it. So the people get the choice. Quite possibly there was a system in place that you missed, along the lines of 'common cup folks sit on these pews/wee cuppies folks on these ones'.
I've done something similar myself, where at an 'informal' communion, the folks stood round the communion table in a circle. They passed the common cup from person to person, but meanwhile I walked round the circle with the tray of wee cuppies, so that if a person wished, they simply passed the common cup along and then took a wee cuppie to drink from.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
Most Lutherans have not maintained the episcopate. I am not sure I would be comfortable receiving communion in a Lutheran setting.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Indifferently, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) the The Episcopal Church (TEC) are in a formal communio in sacris relationship. As part of this, the ELCA agreed to all future episcopal consecrations occuring within the historic succession, or what Episcopalians typically deem the "apostolic succession". In exchange, TEC suspended the rubrics of its Ordinal in relation to already-ordained Lutheran clergy, enabling them to minister the sacraments in TEC parishes. The latter provision, of course, doesn't suit many Anglo-Catholics and High Churchmen, but is consistent with the two ecclesial bodies mutually recognising one another as true Churches in which the Word is truly preached and the Sacraments rightly and duly (validly) administered.
Many national Lutheran provinces outside North America have historic, unbroken episcopal succession pre-dating the Reformation or subsequently restored to them.
[ 05. February 2013, 14:04: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Scandinavian Lutherans have maintained the apostolic succession and the C of E is in full communion with them through the Porvoo agreement. The Church of Sweden is in many ways more 'catholic' than the C of E.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Lone voice: I'm not!
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Most Lutherans have not maintained the episcopate. I am not sure I would be comfortable receiving communion in a Lutheran setting.
Think of each Lutheran pastor as pope of his parish. (e.g. Italian style--a bishop and a diocese for every single little town, it seems)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
"Pope of his parish"....the concept boggles the mind! I will make sure I kiss the Pastor's ring on Sunday. I thought the Synodical Bishop was Pope.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
"Pope of his parish"....the concept boggles the mind! I will make sure I kiss the Pastor's ring on Sunday. I thought the Synodical Bishop was Pope.
I'm afraid we are still very congregational in ethos in the ELCA.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Yeah, the ELCA has bishops, but, from what I can tell, they're more catherds than Len Brennan wannabes. I'm not sure too many ELCA pastors I've met would take too kindly to some hierarchy gettin' all high and mighty with their church—Olaf's right when pointing out the congregational ethos.
But, to the topic, rather than the digression. At my own little outpost of Lutheranland, wee cuppies are par for the course, but filled from a common cup; you walk up the aisle, grab an empty cup if you want wine, one of the few pre-filled ones in the tray if you want grape juice, go to the rail, (pulpit side if you want a gluten-free wafer; please tell the server), get your wafer, get your wee cuppie filled, and that's that. The pastor finishes off the wine at the end, and I have no idea where the wafers go—probably back into the tin they came from. Clean, efficient, sanitary, and you still get the common cup, but with grape juice for those who don't want/can't have wine.*
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
As a complete aside, and speaking to the point that each pastor is a pope in his or her own parish: Last Week a new pastor was installed at one of our churches in town, a big one. The Choir sang "Ecce Sacerdos Magnus." So all I can say is watch out! Now that our bishops are in historic succession, we're bound to be kissing rings by 2025. Just wait and see!
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
As a complete aside, and speaking to the point that each pastor is a pope in his or her own parish: Last Week a new pastor was installed at one of our churches in town, a big one. The Choir sang "Ecce Sacerdos Magnus." So all I can say is watch out! Now that our bishops are in historic succession, we're bound to be kissing rings by 2025. Just wait and see!
And hopefully by then, it would have finally ceased to use the word "lutheran" to describe itself.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I doubt that very much, gorpo. But maybe a name change to "Evangelical Lutheran Catholic Church" would be in order. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I loooovvveee Bruckner's Ecce Sacerdos, and the best performance I ever encountered was at Church of the Ascension, Chicago (whose music program does everything well, I should add).
If it were Bruckner, I'd be thrilled to hear a Lutheran church used it. For a pastor's installation, though? Was the bishop there, at least? Even though I'd enjoy it being used, I would be snickering at its use in a Lutheran church.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
Snicker away, Olaf. It was the dean, not the bishop. But the choir was wonderful and the service otherwise was very nice. No wee cuppies, though.
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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I doubt that very much, gorpo. But maybe a name change to "Evangelical Lutheran Catholic Church" would be in order.
Hmmmm. Be careful of what you wish for. There has been recent talk of setting up an ordinariate for Lutherans.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
We don't really have Lutherans in England, but I think over here your compromises may actually breach our canons. There are doubtless shipmates that will know more about this, but it's my understanding that we are required to use fermented wine and wheaten bread.
IIRC the wine has to have been fermented, so grape juice is out, but the alcohol can have been removed, so dealcoholised wine is ok.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Many ELCA churches have grape juice and wine available. Often times the grape juice is for the children--many ELCA churches now allow very young children to commune. Usually around the age of 12 the kids begin to drink the wine.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Indifferently
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# 17517
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Many ELCA churches have grape juice and wine available. Often times the grape juice is for the children--many ELCA churches now allow very young children to commune. Usually around the age of 12 the kids begin to drink the wine.
It can't be that bad for them! Don't the Eastern Orthodox give wine to new born babies??
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Yes, you are really talking about a tiny bit of wine, especially (in Western usage) if one is taking a mere sip from the common cup. It seems an odd sort of scrupulosity - but rather typically American - to withhold the normative matter of the Sacrament from children, in favour of communicating them with an historical innovation (grape juice), by means of a recent historical innovation (wee cuppies). If one has scruples about it, I'd rather see youngsters communicating only under the form of bread (though I think it quite unnecessary not to administer under both species).
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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285
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Posted
I fully agree with the former correspondent,
Wee cuppies and Grape Juice are from a liturgical point of view : bad practises.
Do they not come from ultra Liberal Protestant traditions ?
As already mentioned wine is given to babies in the Easter-Orthodox Church.I have never heard any complaints about this practise.
We should always follow the traditions of the
Undivided Church.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I fully agree with the former correspondent,
Wee cuppies and Grape Juice are from a liturgical point of view : bad practises.
Do they not come from ultra Liberal Protestant traditions ?
Not at all...they come from Lower Protestant traditions. Among the liturgically-higher Mainline denominations, the more ultra-liberal one is, the more likely one will see a common cup of wine. The more conservative, the more likely one will see grape juice and wee cuppies.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I fully agree with the former correspondent,
Wee cuppies and Grape Juice are from a liturgical point of view : bad practises.
Do they not come from ultra Liberal Protestant traditions ?
Not at all...they come from Lower Protestant traditions. Among the liturgically-higher Mainline denominations, the more ultra-liberal one is, the more likely one will see a common cup of wine. The more conservative, the more likely one will see grape juice and wee cuppies.
Remember also that conservatism in America, especially among Protestants, and especially in the South (including, say, Texas, where the OP's from) is going to be associated with teetotalism. No ifs, ands, or buts, no making excuses for liturgical use, you don't drink, and you certainly don't drink in church. The use of the common cup is associated with wine (as in, you see people who use wine and cuppies, but never grape juice and common cup, save, perhaps, for intinction), so, if your part of the world doesn't drink, it also probably skips the cup o' backwash.
Also, dare I mention that the single cup/reservation/etc. smacks of PAPERY? Anti-Catholicism is very much alive and well in parts of the South, for reasons too long to get into here. Even beyond that, however, individual cups are How It's Done, it's both Traditional and Tradition*, It Was Good Enough For My Granny Who Donated Those Glass Cups, and any criticisms aren't likely to get a fair hearing. You might as well tell the local Church of Christ that they need an organist.
*Yes, I know, even low church types have Traditions. It's pretty much a shocker to everyone.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
This discussion has cast light on an issue (that's ISSUE, like the candlesticks which drove John Proctor from church in "The Crucible") which arose in the Congregational Church which I had become a member of.
I had been told about the church meeting seeking the will of the Holy Spirit, and was somewhat disappointed to find how often His will was shown in very split votes.
The church was primarily Congregational, but had a number of Presbyterians in it, there being many Scots locally, and no church of their persuasion. I'm not sure how the spiritual politics reflected that.
Someone made a donation to the church of a chalice, which was alien to its practice. Deacons would pass around the pews with a serving device in which sat the wee cuppies with their little lids on which sat small cubes of bread, after the minister had spoken the words of Saint Paul describing how Jesus had blessed the Last Supper, holding his hands over the wee cuppies.
Some felt that there was no place in the service for the chalice to be used. Some felt it would be insulting to the giver (dead) not to use it.
What happened was that the minister would bless both the chalice and the wee cuppies, the deacons would pass among the congregation, who would all partake of the bread and the wine together (I rather liked the community of doing it at the same time) and the minister would drink from the chalice.
There was a feeling about that this brought into question the concept that the minister was the first among equals. Which he had taught about in membership classes.
If chalices were in use in some church of which the person who gave the chalice had experience, and she had not understood the differences between that one and ours, that would explain the matter.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
Do they not come from ultra Liberal Protestant traditions ?
Not in my experience, no.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
Here is a story about the individual communion cups, and where they originated. Blame the Baptists and the Presbyterians. You really did not see Lutherans adopt individual cups until the mid 50's I would say; and that was because so many people were coming into the Lutheran Church from traditions that used them.
Now I think you are seeing Lutheran churches returning to the common cup. I know in my congregation we returned to using the common cup just a couple of years ago, along with the individual cups for those who were uncomfortable with the c c. At first, it was just my wife and I who were using the common cup. Now quite a few more do.
I have to tell the story of Ronald Reagan when he was president. Ronald Reagan was Presbyterian in name only--did not go to church that often. One time they were visiting an Episcopalian church. When it came to communion they were somewhat confused about what to do. Fortunately, one of their aides was Episcopalian. The aide told Nancy Reagan to follow his lead. Ronald asked Nancy what did the aide say (he was hard of hearing). She told him to do what she did. So they went to the communion rail. The aide first, Nancy, second, Ronald third. When the bread came to the aide he took a piece and held it. Nancy did the same. Ronald followed suit. When the common cup came by the aide dipped the bread in the wine and ate it. Nancy dipped her piece in the wine, but then dropped it into the common cup. Ronald did the same as Nancy. He dipped his bread into the wine and dropped it in the common cup. The Reagans left the communion rail. Nancy embarrassed for her mistake, Ronald pleased that he did what he thought was right. Meanwhile the priest had two bits of bread in the common cup.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Indifferently
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# 17517
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Posted
The Church is supposed to be One Body. Where practicable, congregations should drink from the one and the same Chalice.
Posts: 288 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jan 2013
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Gramps49
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# 16378
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Posted
We use one loaf of leavened bread, not those individual wafers (I know what you are getting at).
Lutherans hold the use of a common cup is adiaphora.
[ 16. February 2013, 18:49: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
The Church is supposed to be One Body. Where practicable, congregations should drink from the one and the same Chalice.
This one always makes me laugh. In the Anglican tradition, we drink from one cup because we're one body, which is why we use the individual wafers. No, it really doesn't wash. We do it because we do.
It becomes a bit silly when we criticise other traditions for using individual cups, especially when they self evidently use a single loaf of something that anyone without their fingers crossed would actually call bread.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It becomes a bit silly when we criticise other traditions for using individual cups, especially when they self evidently use a single loaf of something that anyone without their fingers crossed would actually call bread.
To be honest, between the cubes of white sliced our local CoS uses and indivdual wafers I struggle to say which least resembles bread. The wafer probably has a slightly higher proportion of wheat in it.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Yeah, but the Mothers Pride doesn't have you wondering who emptied the sherbert out.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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