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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Parish Communion movement
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
There are a number of references about the Parish Communion movement in the Church of England whose liturgical aims were to replace the traditional service pattern (8am said service of Holy Communion with 11am Matins or non-communicating High Mass) with a more corporate communion service at 9am or 9.30am as the main service, with congregational music and participation.
I understand that St John the Baptist, Necastle where Henry De Candole was curate led the way with this pattern in the 1920s. Does anyone know of any other churches which embraced this pattern before it became more widespread in the 1960s and 1970s?
As as aside it seems to me - in London at least -that an early celebration of Holy Communion (normally with hymns rather than sung) is now more or less confined to evangelical parishes, though normally as a precurser to a later service that is not always Eucharistic.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
There are a number of references about the Parish Communion movement in the Church of England whose liturgical aims were to replace the traditional service pattern (8am said service of Holy Communion with 11am Matins or non-communicating High Mass) with a more corporate communion service at 9am or 9.30am as the main service, with congregational music and participation.
I understand that St John the Baptist, Newcastle where Henry De Candole was curate led the way with this pattern in the 1920s. Does anyone know of any other churches which embraced this pattern before it became more widespread in the 1960s and 1970s?
As as aside it seems to me - in London at least - that an early celebration of Holy Communion (normally with hymns rather than sung) is now more or less confined to evangelical parishes, though normally as a precurser to a later service that is not always Eucharistic.
This is from personal memory (not the 1850 bit), not liturgical knowledge.
The conventional pattern in the first half of the C20, when every parish had a vicar, was Communion 8am, Morning Prayer, 11 am, Evening Prayer 6 or 6.30pm. Except in cathedrals, the latter seems to have moved from its late afternoon position 1850-70. I suspect the pattern Morning Prayer - Litany - Antecommunion faded away sometime around the same period. Communion had to be at 8am because a lot of people would not have their breakfast before taking Communion.
The Communion Service would probably be said. The other two services were sung, with choir, and a sermon, that came after the end of the BCP part of the service, but followed by a hymn.
I'd never heard of, yet alone encountered, anywhere having a non-communicating High Mass as the main service in the middle of the morning until I joined the Ship. To me, that would have seemed not CofE.
In the late 1950s we moved house and where we moved to, the local church was higher than we were used to. At least some of its main Sunday morning services were Communion, but they would have been Parish Communion type. That church was fairly new. It had been built just before the war. But this is a long time ago, I was quite young and not all that interested in these things. So I don't know whether that was a recent development or something they had done that since they opened.
By the mid-sixties, it wasn't that unusual for a church to have their main Sunday morning service as a Parish/Family Communion once a month in stead of Morning Prayer.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
When I was a boy in the early 1950s, the Vicar of the church I attended with my family, was an early pioneer of the Parish Communion movement. It was possible to be too doctrinaire about making Parish Communion the supreme service of the week and this Vicar was.
11 o'clock Matins had been discontinued and 9.15 Parish Communion reigned supreme and eventually, even the 'early service' was dropped; but 6.30 Evensong remained. Once a week, there was a mid-week parish meeting, which the Vicar considered to complement Parish Communion. I was too young to attend, but my parents went along.
By evolution, the Eucharist gradually overtook Matins as the principal Sunday service; the latter now increasingly hard to find every week. The non-communicating Solemn Eucharist was the norm in churches of a more anglo-catholic churchmanship.
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
Forgive my ignorance, I don't know too much about Anglican liturgy except that which is essentially an English translation of the old Roman Rite, but how can you have a "non-communicating" Eucharist? Seems like a bit of an oxymoron to me.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Noncommunicating high masses were ones in which the congregation did not come up for communion. For Anglo-Catholics, this was definitely an appropriation of a Pre-V2 Romish theory of the Mass. In such places, those wishing to receive Holy Communion would typically attend the early Mass around 8:00 a.m., and then might very well attend the High Mass later in the morning. In America, St Mary the Virgin Times Square was one prominent place in which this pattern once held sway.
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
Hmm. I'm very familiar with the old Roman Rite and I've never heard of a mass where no one communicates. At the very least the priest has to. In the OP Matins was mentioned. Matins is not a mass but one of the liturgical hours consisting of psalms and lessons. Have the two been mixed up?
I was just wondering that's all. I looked at the post and thought it a bit odd. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285
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Posted
I still remember my first experience at All Saints, Margaret Street on a Sunday Morning, early sixties, when a full High Mass at 11 was the norm, however there was no communion.
This was the rule at that time in many A.C.parishes, with a late High Mass.
On the otherhand,some parishes had a different tradition, e.g.St.Paul's Knightsbridge, which had
Choral Mattins at 10.45 sermon followed by the Solemn Eucharist at 11.45 which included communion.
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
According to the 1662 Prayer Book, there must be at least two or three people to receive Communion with the priest, but the Book expects only a (small?) fraction of the congregation to do so. In fact, those who wish to receive Communion are supposed to notify the priest before the service.
It was only because the provisions of the Prayer Book were largely ignored that the practice arose of Communion not being celebrated at all, except on a handful of Sundays (or less) each year. The Wesleys were ridiculed by their lax clergy brethren because they insisted on Communion being celebrated at least weekly. So in some ways, the Parish Communion movement sought only to restore what should have been "Prayer Book practice" all along.
Liturgylover, have you read A.G.Hebert's book (as editor), The Parish Communion? It outlines the ideas and development of the movement. A lot of the writing and thinking seemed to come from the Society of the Sacred Mission, of which Hebert was a member, and which did a lot of work with people involved in the Liturgical Movement on the continent.
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Magic Wand
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# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Noncommunicating high masses were ones in which the congregation did not come up for communion. For Anglo-Catholics, this was definitely an appropriation of a Pre-V2 Romish theory of the Mass. In such places, those wishing to receive Holy Communion would typically attend the early Mass around 8:00 a.m., and then might very well attend the High Mass later in the morning. In America, St Mary the Virgin Times Square was one prominent place in which this pattern once held sway.
At one point this was a common practice among the Anglo-Catholic parishes in Philadelphia. The last to give it up was S. Mark's, Locust Street, and not until about 1966 or 1967, if I recall correctly.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Hmm. I'm very familiar with the old Roman Rite and I've never heard of a mass where no one communicates. At the very least the priest has to. In the OP Matins was mentioned. Matins is not a mass but one of the liturgical hours consisting of psalms and lessons. Have the two been mixed up?
I was just wondering that's all. I looked at the post and thought it a bit odd.
The principle originally eminated from the belief that it was necessary to fast overnight before receiving communion. That's why so many Anglo-Catholics attended the 8am BCP Communion service where they received, and many would return later for the 11am High Mass for full music and ceremonial but no communion as the fast had been broken.
Hence when the movement emerged it suggested the Parish Communion should be at a reasonably early hour followed by breakfast (usually coffee and maramalade rolls apparently!)
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I still remember my first experience at All Saints, Margaret Street on a Sunday Morning, early sixties, when a full High Mass at 11 was the norm, however there was no communion.
This was the rule at that time in many A.C.parishes, with a late High Mass.
On the otherhand,some parishes had a different tradition, e.g.St.Paul's Knightsbridge, which had
Choral Mattins at 10.45 sermon followed by the Solemn Eucharist at 11.45 which included communion.
That's very interesting Robert. It would be great to see an advert from the Times about Sunday services in the 1960s to compare service patters between then and now. Yet another pattern was at St Alban's Holborn where it appears there was a Parish Communion at 9.30am and non-communicating High mass at 11am.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Liturgylover, have you read A.G.Hebert's book (as editor), The Parish Communion? It outlines the ideas and development of the movement. A lot of the writing and thinking seemed to come from the Society of the Sacred Mission, of which Hebert was a member, and which did a lot of work with people involved in the Liturgical Movement on the continent.
Thanks Adeodatus. I read his book some time ago and found it a fascinating read: he was an interesting character and I recall he also had been influenced by Yngave Brilioth whom he met when working in Sweden, and helped translate his book Eucharistic Faith: Catholic and Evangelical into English.
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
[That's very interesting Robert. It would be great to see an advert from the Times about Sunday services in the 1960s to compare service patters between then and now. Yet another pattern was at St Alban's Holborn where it appears there was a Parish Communion at 9.30am and non-communicating High mass at 11am.
When I worshipped at St John's Newcastle in the early 1980s, the advertised programme was still 9.30 Parish Mass, 11.00 High Mass. By then, however, it had become fairly common for people to receive Communion at the High Mass, so what they really had was two congregations.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
The Parish Communion Movement did not happen in a vacuum, it is almost precisely matched in NonConformity with the Family Church Movement with people like Bert Hamilton.
Jengie
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
[That's very interesting Robert. It would be great to see an advert from the Times about Sunday services in the 1960s to compare service patters between then and now. Yet another pattern was at St Alban's Holborn where it appears there was a Parish Communion at 9.30am and non-communicating High mass at 11am.
When I worshipped at St John's Newcastle in the early 1980s, the advertised programme was still 9.30 Parish Mass, 11.00 High Mass. By then, however, it had become fairly common for people to receive Communion at the High Mass, so what they really had was two congregations.
How nice to meet someone who worshipped at St John's - it is a beautiful church. Am I right in thinking that the 9.30am Eucharist employed a congregational setting and the 11am a choral one? Was forward altar used at either service?
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
[That's very interesting Robert. It would be great to see an advert from the Times about Sunday services in the 1960s to compare service patters between then and now. Yet another pattern was at St Alban's Holborn where it appears there was a Parish Communion at 9.30am and non-communicating High mass at 11am.
When I worshipped at St John's Newcastle in the early 1980s, the advertised programme was still 9.30 Parish Mass, 11.00 High Mass. By then, however, it had become fairly common for people to receive Communion at the High Mass, so what they really had was two congregations.
How nice to meet someone who worshipped at St John's - it is a beautiful church. Am I right in thinking that the 9.30am Eucharist employed a congregational setting and the 11am a choral one? Was forward altar used at either service?
The nave altar, with, I think, a Laudian frontal, was used for both when I was there. Behind it was a beautiful wrought iron screen leading to the chancel. I think the 9.30 Mass used Shaw and Merbecke; the High Mass was sometimes a bit more ambitious, but the choir were very few in number sometimes - they once sang the Byrd 3-part Mass with only three people in the choir!
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
My home parish was of the High Church leaning Tractarian variety and the services. According to the Old Parish Magazines, the pattern in the 1910s was
Sundays:
8.00am HC
10.30am MP
11.45am HC (2nd and 4th)
2.30pm Catechism and Children's service
6.30pm Evensong
Weekdays
8am MP
5pm EP
HC - Tuesdays and Holydays 7.30am; Thursday 10.30am.
In the 20s through the 60s the parish had the following
Sundays:
8.00am HC
10.30am MP/HC alternating
2.30pm Sunday School
6.30pm EP
Weekdays
10am MP
5.30pm EP
HC as before.
The big upheaval started in a small way with the introduction of a Parish Communion (Series 1/2) between the early celebration and MP, so in the late-60s the pattern was
8am HC
9.30am Parish Communion
10.30am MP
2.30pm Sunday School
6.30pm EP
Weekdays were down to just communion services with an even celebation on Fridays being introduced to replace Thursday morning, and celebrations early on Tuesday and mid-morning on Wednesday.
MP faded pretty quickly - one suspects because the clergy were not exactly neutral on the issue. It disappeared entirely in the mid-70s at which point my family stopped going to church altogether - not that they had been all that regular to start with!
It is a bit difficult to say if the parish communion movement succeeded or not. In one sense it did - mid-morning HC is now the main service in a lot of parishes in the UK and "most all" in the USA. On the other hand, the parish breakfast and the parish meeting elements have not really caught on. What has really happened is that most places picked up on non-fasting HC as the mid-morning service, but with a lot of the social and didactic elements of the PCM being left on the roadside.
In the end I am not sure whether the PCM did much for mission and evangelism, or for parish cohesiveness. It seems to work best in a mod. catholic environment, and once a month in mod. Evo parishes. Otherwise it seems to have fallen a bit flat.
PD
[ 18. April 2013, 14:58: Message edited by: PD ]
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Hmm. I'm very familiar with the old Roman Rite and I've never heard of a mass where no one communicates. At the very least the priest has to. In the OP Matins was mentioned. Matins is not a mass but one of the liturgical hours consisting of psalms and lessons. Have the two been mixed up?
I was just wondering that's all. I looked at the post and thought it a bit odd.
No.
The priest DID communicate - alone - at the 11.00 high masses.
Those who obeyed the Prayer Book also got two old ladies to communicate with them so that the rubric was obeyed.
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Did the deacon and subdeacon at High Mass? (All well before my time!)
Thurible
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
I have a little book called Sunday Morning - The New Way published in 1938 and edited by one Brother Edward, 'Priest-Evangelist'. It consists of a series of essays by the incumbents of various churches describing how they introduced the Parish Communion (often followed by a parish breakfast)to their congregations, and what the effects were. The churches concerned were:
St. Peter, Chalvey, Slough;
Byker Parish Church, Newcastle-upon-Tyne;
St. Peter, Lampeter Velfrey (Wales);
A new housing estate in North Greenford, Middlesex;
St. Thomas, Coventry;
St. Mary, Portsea;
St. Mary Magdalene, Sunderland;
Woodchurch, Cheshire;
Flimwell, Sussex;
St. Ninian's (Episcopal) Cathedral, Perth, Scotland.
All the essays refer to congregational Parish Communion services introduced during the 1930s, with a starting time of 9am or thereabouts.
One interesting conclusion common to all is that there was not a huge increase in the size of the congregation, but that, instead, spiritual growth was marked.
Ian J.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
Thanks Bishop's finger for this interesting list of churches.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Did the deacon and subdeacon at High Mass? (All well before my time!)
Thurible
Not entirely sure what you are asking. High Mass, deacon and subdeacon were needed. A layman could be subdeacon, but a deacon had to be in holy orders. A celebrant supported by a team of servers, constituted a sung mass.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
I think the question being asked is whether or not the deacon and sub-deacon at an otherwise non-communicating High Mass did, in fact, make their own Communion as well as the priest.
Ian J.
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Did the deacon and subdeacon at High Mass? (All well before my time!)
Thurible
Not entirely sure what you are asking. High Mass, deacon and subdeacon were needed. A layman could be subdeacon, but a deacon had to be in holy orders. A celebrant supported by a team of servers, constituted a sung mass.
No doubt Thurible was asking whether the deacon & subdeacon communicated with the priest at the non-communicating High Mass. I wish I could say I remember but I do not recall.
I only recall that very occasionally some would come to the rail following the mass for quiet "private" communions but it was assumed they had fasted from midnight. Those who made their communions at the early mass and returned to high mass did so, as was the custom - to offer thanks for their communions in this act of worship.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
Our parish had non-communicating Solemn High Mass at 11 for some years under a rector who also would say weekday Low Mass "short" if no one came forward for Communion: he'd receive the Sacrament himself and then turn around to see if any of the faithful wished to receive; if they did, he'd start the "Communion Devotions," which included the people's confession/absolution, Domine non sum dignus, etc. If no one came forward, he'd skip all that and go to the postcommunion prayer.
A later rector made the abolition of non-communicating Masses one of the conditions of his accepting the call to our parish.
The Sunday practice of non-communicating High Mass has a remnant, I believe, in our sermon-free 8 a.m. Low Mass. No sermon was preached at Low Mass because people would come back for High Mass with sermon.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Another pioneering Parish Communion parish was Our Lady and St Nicholas, Liverpool. From the late 1920s I think.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Some other early examples of the Parish Communion, mentioned in Br. Edward's Sunday Morning - The New Way, are:
St. Saviour, Poplar, c.1900 - 8am High Mass (!) followed by breakfast (Communion was received - fasting, of course - at the High Mass, with, by c.1938, 200 communicants.....)
Temple Balsall (Birmingham?) 1913
Yarm-on-Tees, Yorkshire, 1923
The Ascension, Malvern Link, 1925
I expect some of the churches mentioned in this book are still alive and flourishing today, but I wonder how many still have a weekly Parish Communion?
Ian J.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Some other early examples of the Parish Communion, mentioned in Br. Edward's Sunday Morning - The New Way, are:
St. Saviour, Poplar, c.1900 - 8am High Mass (!) followed by breakfast (Communion was received - fasting, of course - at the High Mass, with, by c.1938, 200 communicants.....)
Temple Balsall (Birmingham?) 1913
Yarm-on-Tees, Yorkshire, 1923
The Ascension, Malvern Link, 1925
I expect some of the churches mentioned in this book are still alive and flourishing today, but I wonder how many still have a weekly Parish Communion?
Ian J.
I have had a quick look and most are indeed still around and looking well. It seems however, that most have now moved to a 10am Sung Eucharist -one or two though still mention a Family Mass or family service at 9.30am, but the term Parish Communion seems to have been discarded in the main.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
The examples above show that the PC movement included some quite 'full-on' Anglo-catholic places, even though many others persisted with their non-communicating High Masses. Another such was Christ Church, Clapham, in south London, which was I think the first church in London to use (or revive, anyway) Eucharistic vestments, back in the 1850s. It was always 'western rite' Anglo-catholic but when I first encountered it in the early 60s it had 9.30 parish mass followed by breakfast, and I am sure that was not a recent innovation.
[ 18. April 2013, 20:27: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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BulldogSacristan
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# 11239
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Posted
So my parish's current schedule of Sunday masses: 8:00 Low Mass
9:00 Sung Mass
11:15 Solemn High Mass
is actually a holdover from the High Mass's being a noncommunicating mass? How very interesting.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I visited St. John the Baptist Newcastle a few years back (nearly ten I guess) and they were still very proud of their role in the Communion movement, including daily celebrations during the week as well.
The possible significance of the breakfast had never occurred to me - it sounds like this was something which was actually a very important element of the fellowship associated with the concept of the Parish Communion, at least in the early days. One imagines that when fasting fell almost entirely out of fashion it dropped by the wayside (some connection with the end of rationing, one wonders?)
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
According to the 1662 Prayer Book, there must be at least two or three people to receive Communion with the priest, but the Book expects only a (small?) fraction of the congregation to do so. In fact, those who wish to receive Communion are supposed to notify the priest before the service.
It was only because the provisions of the Prayer Book were largely ignored that the practice arose of Communion not being celebrated at all, except on a handful of Sundays (or less) each year. ...
Not quite. The rule was (and I think probably still is) that there must be other communicants than just the priest. The rubric is preferably 4+ and a minimum of 3.
The rubric also says that everyone must communicate at least three times per annum of which Easter must be one. I was told somewhere around the time I was confirmed, that if one could not communicate on Easter Sunday, this counted anytime between Palm Sunday and Low Sunday inclusive. I don't know what the authority was for that.
The Reformers would have been very hostile indeed to the concept of a priest only mass. It represented much of what they detested most about early Tudor Catholicism.
The normal Sunday morning practice until the mid C19 seems to have been Morning Prayer, Litany, and then Antecommunion, ending with the sermon. This only proceeded on to Communion itself if there were people who had given in their names. "And when there is a Communion, the Priest shall then place upon the Table so much Bread and Wine as he shall think sufficient. ..." then follows the prayer for the Church Militant.
It is not surprising that there was a widespread impression that church was a place to sleep and be bored.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Hmm. I'm very familiar with the old Roman Rite and I've never heard of a mass where no one communicates.
If you look at a Roman Missal from before 1970, there is no Communion of the People - the rite of communion from the Rituale Romanum could be inserted , but was optional. In my St Joseph Daily Missal, it's printed with a red line down the left margin. Since many Anglo-Catholic parishes, as you note, followed more or less a vernacular rendering of then-contemporary Roman Rite liturgy (dovetailed to a greater or lesser extent into the Common Prayers of the Communion Office) it was common for some parishes to serve breakfast after the "early celebration."
In these parishes, the High Mass served a function rather like Mattins in more "mainstream" ones: you returned at 11 to sing and/or serve, pray, and hear the sermon. A few communicants, mostly those too elderly or infirm for the Eucharist fast, would satisfy the rubric by communicating with the priest.
ETA that the Canadian revision of 1962 reduced the requirement, permitting celebrations so long as one person apart from the celebrant received the sacrament. This would presumably allow (in letter if not intention) the old practice of priests serving each other's Masses and then swapping off.
[ 19. April 2013, 05:16: Message edited by: LQ ]
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The normal Sunday morning practice until the mid C19 seems to have been Morning Prayer, Litany, and then Antecommunion, ending with the sermon. This only proceeded on to Communion itself if there were people who had given in their names. "And when there is a Communion, the Priest shall then place upon the Table so much Bread and Wine as he shall think sufficient. ..." then follows the prayer for the Church Militant.
It is not surprising that there was a widespread impression that church was a place to sleep and be bored.
Actually, the main problem with the old Dry Service was the parson and clerk duet with the laity reduced to spectators. Once folks were able to join in it became much less boring. A couple of times a year I still do the old "Morning Service" and folks seem to like roaing their way through some old-fashioned hymns, the canticles and the commandments. It wouldn't do every week, but as a change it still has a following.
Two other churches strike me as being precursors of the PCM - St Mary the Virgn, Primrose Hill, where the original PD introuced a 9.15am Sung Eucharist c. 1902, and Thaxted under Fr Conrad Noel which went in for a similar arrangement from 1911 onwards. Both had a good deal of 'Merry Englishry' about them, but both had strong fellowships and addressed catholic teaching and social issues.
PD
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The examples above show that the PC movement included some quite 'full-on' Anglo-catholic places, even though many others persisted with their non-communicating High Masses. Another such was Christ Church, Clapham, in south London, which was I think the first church in London to use (or revive, anyway) Eucharistic vestments, back in the 1850s. It was always 'western rite' Anglo-catholic but when I first encountered it in the early 60s it had 9.30 parish mass followed by breakfast, and I am sure that was not a recent innovation.
It's good to have mention of a London Church, very few of which have been mentioned in stuff that I have read about the PC movement.
I imagine that most of the central London churches have tended always to have been at the more extreme ends and were not therefore hugely influenced by the movement, though both St John's Hyde Park and St Martin-in-theFields still have a 10am Parish Eucharist with congregational setting as their main service.
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Two other churches strike me as being precursors of the PCM - St Mary the Virgn, Primrose Hill, where the original PD introuced a 9.15am Sung Eucharist c. 1902, and Thaxted under Fr Conrad Noel which went in for a similar arrangement from 1911 onwards. Both had a good deal of 'Merry Englishry' about them, but both had strong fellowships and addressed catholic teaching and social issues.
PD
I had forgotten about St Mary, Primrose Hill. Do you know, PD, if they would have had a later service of choral Matins? I imagine this was eventually dropped and the Sung Eucharist moved to a later time (it's now at 10.30).
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
I would imagine that at St Mary's Primrose Hill, Percy Dearmer would have done it by the BCP and had Morning Prayer first. I wonder if he did an 8am, since there is no precedent in the BCP?
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Did the deacon and subdeacon at High Mass? (All well before my time!)
Thurible
Not entirely sure what you are asking. High Mass, deacon and subdeacon were needed. A layman could be subdeacon, but a deacon had to be in holy orders. A celebrant supported by a team of servers, constituted a sung mass.
No doubt Thurible was asking whether the deacon & subdeacon communicated with the priest at the non-communicating High Mass. I wish I could say I remember but I do not recall.
I only recall that very occasionally some would come to the rail following the mass for quiet "private" communions but it was assumed they had fasted from midnight. Those who made their communions at the early mass and returned to high mass did so, as was the custom - to offer thanks for their communions in this act of worship.
I believe the deacon and subdeacon did not receive communion with the celebrant, but I am not certain. This question may be akin to asking - How far did the pax go? (For those who don't know, the PAX peace was a mini-embrace after the consecration, the fore-runner of the customary handshake all round. Sometimes, the pax was confined to the sacred ministers, or it could be passed on to any clergy in choir as well and perhaps to the MC with or without including the other servers in the sanctuary team - generally stopping short of sharing it with the congregarion.)
The point I am making is that how far the reception of communion went (as with the pax), may have varied from place to place in accordance with local custom. But I am open to correction on that.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Wouldn't also depend on whether the deacon and subdeacon felt prepared to receive? If they were priests (as was often the case) they may have already celebrated their own masses and thought it inappropriate, or they might not have been fasting, or...
The 'non-communicating' mass was not a tradition solely confined to nosebleed high parishes. One very moderate 'prayer-book Catholic' parish known to me in the late fifties/early sixties, a late adopter of the Parish Communion, used to alternate Mattins and Sung Eucharist. Nobody was barred from receiving at the latter, but it was not the 'done thing' except perhaps for the elderly and infirm.
It was long the custom at a nuptial mass, even or especially in MOTR parishes, for communion to be offered to the couple alone. And I attended an episcopal consecration in the 1970s at which communion was only given to the new bishops and their families.
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Hmm. I'm very familiar with the old Roman Rite and I've never heard of a mass where no one communicates.
If you look at a Roman Missal from before 1970, there is no Communion of the People - the rite of communion from the Rituale Romanum could be inserted , but was optional. it was common for some parishes to serve breakfast after the "early celebration."
As mentioned upthread - St Mark's in Philadelphia had a non-communicationg high mass into the mid 1960s. A very popular full breakfast was served after both early masses and was retained for some years after the high mass became a communicating mass.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Question about non-communicating Masses in the Anglo-Catholic tradition: at Easter, Pentecost, and Christmas was Communion normally administered at High Mass to larger numbers of people? In other words, on these occasions did the normally non-communicating Mass acquire a Communion of the People?
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Sarum Sleuth
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# 162
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Posted
I can answer a couple of queries raised in various posts.
First, St John's, Newcastle. Originally the Parish Communion was celebrated at the High Altar facing east It was followed by a High Mass with Sarum ceremonial. In the late 60s/early 70s the church was re-ordered and the present central altar installed. Westward facing celebrations commenced at this time for both services. The Parish Breakfast after the 9.30 service was still in place up till at least 1978 when I left the church for London.
Secondly, Primrose Hill. Dearmer did not introduce a Parish Communion, but always made it clear that anyone suitably prepared could communicate at the 11.15 High Mass. This did not endear him to many more advanced anglo-catholics who regarded such a suggestion as little less than heresy. The 9.30 Parish Communion came in two incumbents later in the early 1930s. This survived until the early 1980s when the church was redecorated and the two congregations merged at a 10.30am High Mass. In the last few years a fortnightly Family Eucharist which is specifically aimed at families with young children has been introduced at 9.15am.
SS
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
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Liturgylover
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Posted
Thanks SS.
Am I right in thinking that the Parish Communion services at St John's and St Mary were fully congregational - i.e. no choir, and both sung congregationally to the Merbecke or Shaw settings?
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
SS, may I ask what changes were made to the interior of St Mary's Primrose Hill in the 1980s I've only seen it in its present form and don't know how much the Parson's Handbook illustrations reflected the original appearance of the church.
[ 19. April 2013, 18:31: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
Another question for SS. Did Dearmer celebrate an 8am Holy Communion? I've skimmed through The Parson's Handbook and I can't find anything about it, which since it isn't mentioned in the BCP doesn't surprise me.
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Magic Wand
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Hmm. I'm very familiar with the old Roman Rite and I've never heard of a mass where no one communicates.
If you look at a Roman Missal from before 1970, there is no Communion of the People - the rite of communion from the Rituale Romanum could be inserted , but was optional. it was common for some parishes to serve breakfast after the "early celebration."
As mentioned upthread - St Mark's in Philadelphia had a non-communicationg high mass into the mid 1960s. A very popular full breakfast was served after both early masses and was retained for some years after the high mass became a communicating mass.
And wonderful breakfasts they were! I remember often pestering my parents to take us to the early Mass so that we could have breakfast afterward!
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Question about non-communicating Masses in the Anglo-Catholic tradition: at Easter, Pentecost, and Christmas was Communion normally administered at High Mass to larger numbers of people? In other words, on these occasions did the normally non-communicating Mass acquire a Communion of the People?
Not in any of the parishes that I've ever read about, which isn't to say that it was done in some places. The expectation would have been that anyone seriously interested in receiving Holy Communion would have assisted at an earlier Mass.
[ 19. April 2013, 20:45: Message edited by: Magic Wand ]
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Broadly speaking, from at least the late 1930s you'd find a Parish Communion (as well as a said 7 or 8am) at any church where the incumbent was ex-Mirfield.
To accommodate those who "didn't belong to do communion" - for reasons including the belief that sharing the chalice was insanitary - they organised Sunday morning along the lines:
- 7 and/or 8am - said Communion
- 9/9.30am - Parish Communion
- 11am - sung Matins
- 12.45am - said communion (only in larger parishes)
- 6.30pm - Evensong
Depending on how high or low Evensong might be relocated to the mid-afternoon or replaced with compline & benediction.
Rural parishes tended to be lower: even in 2001 I was still being told that a parishioner didn't understand why there was the "obssession" with communion, and we still get a good congregation for choral Matins once a month.
With the disappearance of Matins there is a new development: in many parishes (where I attend included) disinclined to have 3 readings at the parish communion, Matins or Evensong is often the only place where an Old Testament reading is heard.
But then ... in a parish I know of it took the organist badgering for 7 years before they finally got a sung communion service on Christmas Day, the norm having been a children's tableaux vivants with carols only ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Question about non-communicating Masses in the Anglo-Catholic tradition: at Easter, Pentecost, and Christmas was Communion normally administered at High Mass to larger numbers of people? In other words, on these occasions did the normally non-communicating Mass acquire a Communion of the People?
Not in any of the parishes that I've ever read about, which isn't to say that it was done in some places. The expectation would have been that anyone seriously interested in receiving Holy Communion would have assisted at an earlier Mass.
In which case did they take at all seriously the rubric about communicating at least three times a year, or to put this in more catholic terms, with the obligation that everyone should be houselled at Easter?
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Cruet
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# 14586
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Posted
LSK,
SMV NYC had non-communicating High Mass until
FR. Taber's death, 1964. Fr. Garfield became Rector and the custom ceased. Fr Taber had communicating High Mass on Christmas Eve.
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