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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Drowning the old Adam
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I posted several weeks ago about Mrs Thurible "giving thanks for safe delivery after childbirth", as we decided the safest title for churching was.
Yesterday, the Boatgirl was baptised and it was very lovely. I had been very keen that she be baptised by full immersion, given that she's not infirm, and, after convincing Mrs Thurible (and the Vicar's wife!) that Father wouldn't drown her, she agreed.
It was very splendid and I was struck by one of the servers, a German Lutheran by birth and upbringing, saying how powerful it had been and how it was the first time that infant baptism had "worked" for him. Talking to friends and family afterwards, it was clearly the first time they'd witnessed an infant baptism by immersion. I was explaining that, really, this is the standard and sprinkling is really a concession.
How widespread is infant immersion, though? I think the Orthodox do it as a matter of course. What about Catholics - extraordinary form or otherwise? What about Protestant paedobaptists? Anglicans?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Amos
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# 44
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Posted
In the CofE it's really rare, which is a pity. Most of the old fonts are designed for it though, and, especially in warm weather, the chief reasons why it's not more practised probably are 1) Custom--a couple of centuries of splashing have made it an obscure practice; 2) The Family Christening Gown, which cannot be got wet. Theoretically the baby could (and should) be dressed in this after the baptism, but in practice it's worn throughout the service. Once or twice I've had parents reluctant to take the Family Christening Gown's Matching Bonnet off for the baptism! 3)Clerical fear of slippery wet babies. Parental wariness. 4) Postponement of baptism until the baby is too large for immersion even in a large, mediaeval font.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
Wow - never seen it!
We do adults by immersion, and reaffirm baptism vows "with as much water as possible" (to quote our bishop). Agreed that sprinkling is the concession and immersion the theological norm in the C of E.
[cross-posted from other thread]
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Apologies for the double thread - the joys of intermittent WiFi.
Our font is, indeed, nice and large, albeit C19th.
The Boatgirl arrived in a nappy (handy that it was so hot), sat in that for the first bit of the Mass, and that was removed during the Apostles' Creed. She was then handed over to be dunked. Towel at the ready, we then dried, put a new nappy on, and her christening gown on, whilst the choir sang Vidi Aquam. All worked very smoothly.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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daronmedway
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# 3012
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Posted
My three sons were baptised as infants by full immersion, one in a full size baptistry! I can still argue from the bible for selective covenantal paedo-baptism, but I'm no longer personally convinced by the arguments.
In recent years I've moved away theologically from paedo-baptism, a move which makes Anglican parochial baptismal ministry a tad difficult for me.
It also creates an inner tension in me because I'm still emotionally attached to the baptism of my children, despite the fact that I can find no real theological justification for it. I'm waiting for the day when one of them expresses a desire for believer's baptism to see how I will react. I hope it will be with joy.
[copied from the other thread]
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
My three sons were baptised as infants by full immersion, one in a full size baptistry! I can still argue from the bible for selective covenantal paedo-baptism, but I'm no longer personally convinced by the arguments.
In recent years I've moved away theologically from paedo-baptism, a move which makes Anglican parochial baptismal ministry a tad difficult for me.
It also creates an inner tension in me because I'm still emotionally attached to the baptism of my children, despite the fact that I can find no real theological justification for it. I'm waiting for the day when one of them expresses a desire for believer's baptism to see how I will react. I hope it will be with joy.
[copied from the other thread]
And if they do, will you have them "re-baptised" like a schismatical anabaptist? I'm sure your bishop will love that...
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
What about Catholics - extraordinary form or otherwise?
I've seen it, probably a minority of times but not a vanishingly small minority. It seems to vary by parish around here. Unfortunately, our font is too small for it.
For our initiation class in seminary, the professor opened by reading two accounts of baptism. One was an imaginative reconstruction of baptism in Ambrose's Milan: fasting neophytes dunked nude in large pools in one building while the church prayed litanies for them in another, followed by a lavish procession to unite them to their new fellow Christians and receive their first communion. The second, a neatly dressed infant being sprinkled (so as not to get his garment wet) in something smaller than most birdbaths after most of the community had gone out for Sunday brunch.
It was pretty clear he thought our initiatory practices needed some ressourcement!
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Common Worship provides for an 'Affirmation of Baptismal Faith'. It has to be linked back to the original baptism, but seems from the commentary to be designed to meet those dilemmas. Has anyone ever seen it used?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
I've only once seen total immersion in an Anglican font, never in Presbyterian, RCC, or UCC baptisms. Otherwise I have only seen it in Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox baptisms (I recommend Ethiopian and Coptic baptisms for the après-dunk parties). I would remark that at the last Ethiopian baptism I attended in Ottawa, the priest afterward told me that he threw in an extra psalm to help the baby fall asleep. "Like the rest of the congregation?" I enquired, and he replied, "That's why we have you standing." He did tell me that it was important to make sure that the water had been brought to lukewarm temperature and he always tested it himself to make certain that he was neither scalding the child, nor killing it with hypothermia.
[ 15. July 2013, 14:24: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
Our Church is a Baptist & United Reformed congregation, so we have both a (tiny!) font and a baptistery. In the past there have been difficulties over baptism, in particular if young people, christened as infants, which to be baptised later on by immersion.
As it happens, I was preaching on this subject yesterday, and said this: "I believe in baptism and think that it is a hugely symbolic act; I also would challenge any of you, at whatever stage in life you may be, to think seriously about it if you have never been baptised.
"Alternatively, if there are any folk who were christened as babies and feel that what took place never meant much to them, we could arrange a service in which people reclaim and repeat the baptismal promises that were made on their behalf. That would be easy to do".
Mind you, they haven't started queueing up yet!
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
My three sons were baptised as infants by full immersion, one in a full size baptistry! I can still argue from the bible for selective covenantal paedo-baptism, but I'm no longer personally convinced by the arguments.
In recent years I've moved away theologically from paedo-baptism, a move which makes Anglican parochial baptismal ministry a tad difficult for me.
It also creates an inner tension in me because I'm still emotionally attached to the baptism of my children, despite the fact that I can find no real theological justification for it. I'm waiting for the day when one of them expresses a desire for believer's baptism to see how I will react. I hope it will be with joy.
[copied from the other thread]
And if they do, will you have them "re-baptised" like a schismatical anabaptist? I'm sure your bishop will love that...
From my perspective, it depends on whether they are actually baptised doesn't it? I can't see any particular reason to believe that the rite they received really is sacramentally valid baptism.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I've never seen full immersion for infants done, or done it myself. I've often incorporated why it was called 'dipping', into my baptismal talk; and the reason why medieval fonts were so large. But I must admit I never thought about actually done a nudie full immersion (for the child, that is!). Splendid idea. But I doubt if many Anglican parents would go for it.
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
My three sons were baptised as infants by full immersion, one in a full size baptistry! I can still argue from the bible for selective covenantal paedo-baptism, but I'm no longer personally convinced by the arguments.
In recent years I've moved away theologically from paedo-baptism, a move which makes Anglican parochial baptismal ministry a tad difficult for me.
It also creates an inner tension in me because I'm still emotionally attached to the baptism of my children, despite the fact that I can find no real theological justification for it. I'm waiting for the day when one of them expresses a desire for believer's baptism to see how I will react. I hope it will be with joy.
[copied from the other thread]
And if they do, will you have them "re-baptised" like a schismatical anabaptist? I'm sure your bishop will love that...
From my perspective, it depends on whether they are actually baptised doesn't it? I can't see any particular reason to believe that the rite they received really is sacramentally valid baptism.
In which case I would suggest that the Church of England is not the place for you, since it is full of unbaptised heretics...
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
I can't recall accusing anyone of heresy.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Common Worship provides for an 'Affirmation of Baptismal Faith'. It has to be linked back to the original baptism, but seems from the commentary to be designed to meet those dilemmas. Has anyone ever seen it used?
Yes. I use it for Affirmation of Baptismal Vows with immersion. In the parish in which I served my title, the minister/s did not enter the water and candidate immersed themselves after affirming their baptismal vows. In my current parish I do immerse the candidate but there is no baptismal formula prior to immersion.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I can't recall accusing anyone of heresy.
Heretic = Christian whose beliefs are erroneous.
Non-baptised = not a Christian.
Would you not say the second is worse?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Daronmedway, I recall you being hot on the Articles previously. Have you fallen out with Article 27? Do you get a colleague to baptise or do you just upset your parishioners (!)?
More pertinent to the thread, I think clergy should start by saying "now, the norm is by full immersion - I assume you're happy with that!" That way, even if parents say no, it'll get back onto the cultural radar.
Does anyone know when it started to die out in the CofE? The Victorian Revival parishes seem to go in for big fonts but that might just be mediaeval-aping.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I can't recall accusing anyone of heresy.
Heretic = Christian whose beliefs are erroneous.
Non-baptised = not a Christian.
Would you not say the second is worse?
Um, baptism doesn't make a person a Christian. The spiritual grace of regeneration makes a person a Christian. There are plenty of unregenerate people who've been baptised as infants. And there are a plenty regenerate people who've not been baptised at all - a whole denomination of them in fact. Personally, I think that baptism should follow regeneration as an outward and visible sign of that inward and spiritual grace.
[ 15. July 2013, 17:58: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Eighteenth century fonts tend to be quite small - that is bird baths. However, the 1662 BCP presumes immersion unless the parents certify the child is weak, in which case pouring is allowed.
Given the frequency with which 16th-17th century bishops moan about clergy baptising in pots, pails and basins suggest that immersion was dying out in the immediate post-Reformation era. Of course you can immerse an infant in a large bucket, but pots and basins might well be a bit difficult.
PD
[ 15. July 2013, 18:06: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Daronmedway, I recall you being hot on the Articles previously. Have you fallen out with Article 27? Do you get a colleague to baptise or do you just upset your parishioners (!)?
Article 27 can accommodate a credo-baptist position, I think. A more pertinent question would be whether indiscriminate paedo-baptism fits with Article 27. I don't think it does.
In answer to your question, I obey canon and baptise the infants of those who ask after an appropriate period of instruction which begins when they start attending Sunday worship regularly. I do not baptise the infants of non-attenders during the principle service, opting instead to do it on Sunday afternoons.
[ 15. July 2013, 18:11: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Daronmedway, I think you've not outlived nor outgrown your Numpty moniker ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Which denomination, pray, is made up of regenerate people who have not been baptised?
And how would you know?
I can see the credo-baptism corollary following neatly on from your theology but I don't understand how that in any way gives you the right to determine who is or who isn't regenerate in your terms/point of view.
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Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
If said denomination is the Salvation Army then I think you'll find that some of them have been baptised - certainly those who may have joined from other Christian denominations or confessions.
Although I take your point, it is a tricky one. I certainly wouldn't regard Salvationists as not 'proper' or kosher Christians on account of their approach to the sacrament or ordinance (whichever you prefer) of baptism.
I didn't have my daughters baptised as infants as we were in a very full-on credo-baptist setting at that time. We had them 'dedicated' instead. Now they are in their teens neither are showing any particular interest in church or faith issues - although they do respect Christian belief.
Part of me wishes I'd had them baptised back then. Which may sound odd, but it is the way I feel.
Either way, I believe God is big enough to sort out any anomalies there might be all ways round.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
the Church of England is not the place for you, since it is full of unbaptised heretics...
I didn't think you could become a heretic UNTIL you'd been baptised.
You can't wander away from something if you've never been on the road in the first place.
You're talking about apostasy, surely?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Daronmedway, I think you've not outlived nor outgrown your Numpty moniker ...
Which denomination, pray, is made up of regenerate people who have not been baptised?
And how would you know?
I can see the credo-baptism corollary following neatly on from your theology but I don't understand how that in any way gives you the right to determine who is or who isn't regenerate in your terms/point of view.
Fair call. All I can really say is that 1) I'm convinced that there are regenerate Salvationists who remain unbaptised out of theological-denominational conviction, and that 2) I believe that baptism should ideally follow rather than precede regeneration.
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I've never seen full immersion for infants done, or done it myself ... But I must admit I never thought about actually done a nudie full immersion (for the child, that is!). Splendid idea. But I doubt if many Anglican parents would go for it.
I've seen several naked infants baptized with full immersion, or nearly so, by Episcopalians in the USA. It's usually done with a triple dunk and hold the baby's nose and mouth closed. With that nice warmed water the babies usually pee into the font (hopefully) and not on close bystanders. Most babies enjoy it, some complain. They are quickly dried and bundled up again. In my experience, most people, once having seen it, appreciate that extra expression in the baptismal ritual.
*
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
There is a scene from My Big Fat Greek Wedding which shipmates might find interesting. A not-yet-baptized Baptist friend of mine got similarly done at the Armenian church in Montréal, with a long lecture from her prospective mother-in-law as to how to make sure that the baptismal gown did not get too revealing when wet.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Fair enough Daronmedway, except that baptism and regeneration were clearly very closely linked in the thought of the Early Church and - arguably - is also commensurate with the scriptural record. The Bible comes pretty close to what looks like 'baptismal regeneration' at several points ...
That said, of course, there are other examples that don't seem to fit that neat schema - such as the household of Cornelius in Acts 10 and so on.
In fact, the scriptures don't seem to offer any particularly neat and cut and dried (or wet) schema of regeneration however you cut it. You can find examples and precedents that could support any one of a number of views - from full on sacramentalism to forms of fideism where outward signs are of far less import ... and all manner of things between ...
So, whilst I respect your convictions, I'm equally sure that there are other positions that can be held with equal respect for the scriptures.
One could argue, of course, that this in and of itself calls the whole 'sola scriptura' thing into question ...
I'll leave that to wiser minds than mine.
I certainly accept that Salvationists are regenerate despite their convictions about baptism - ie. they believe in baptism but don't see it as being for them, as it were.
But generally, it seems to me, the scriptures and tradition appear to support a both/and position rather than an either/or one on these and most other matters.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Below the Lansker
Shipmate
# 17297
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Posted
The local CinW building here (mediaeval) has a 19th-century baptismal pool outside, added, according to local lore, because the Baptists were making such headway in the area and had convinced many in the CofE (as it would have been then) that full immersion was the only valid method of baptism.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
I saw an infant baptized by immersion at St Paul and the Redeemed Episcopal Church on Chicago's south side (or, to be more accurate, I didn't exactly see it, because so many children and relatives surrounded the font that I didn't have a good view). I did see the baby being towel-dried and dressed during the offertory. Here's a photo of the font from the church's FB page. It's a big one, about 36" across.
My nephew was baptized by immersion in a Lutheran (ELCA) church in Wisconsin about 19 years ago. The parish furnished little white baby gowns for the immersion, but neph was such a chunky little guy, it didn't fit, so he went in naked.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
the Church of England is not the place for you, since it is full of unbaptised heretics...
I didn't think you could become a heretic UNTIL you'd been baptised.
You can't wander away from something if you've never been on the road in the first place.
You're talking about apostasy, surely?
Thurible
There are no unbaptized heretics, at least according to the Catholic definition:
quote:
Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same (CCC 2089)
Calling someone unbaptized a heretic is like calling a violin a shrunken viola.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Indeed. But wandering away refers to apostasy rather than heresy (that being choosing the wrong understanding).
Packer on paedobaptism.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
I've never seen an infant baptized by immersion in any Lutheran church. Local churches are not equipped for it as they universally have the "birth-bath" type of fonts. A friend of mine recently attended a newly built Lutheran church in LA and it did have a font large enough for immersions but I have no idea if they use it for infants. He was told the font was designed to accommodate adults. I have no idea what they use for infants.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
I've never seen a baby baptized by immersion. On the assumption that there are no stupid questions: how does one keep the baby from taking in too much water? Is it safe because it's so quick? And is the child immersed once or thrice?
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Dunked thrice and quickly enough that the infant doesn't take too much in. Indeed, the shock is so great that they hold their breath. And then scream loudly when released from the water.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Anna B
Shipmate
# 1439
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I was struck by one of the servers, a German Lutheran by birth and upbringing, saying how powerful it had been and how it was the first time that infant baptism had "worked" for him.
I think it just clicked for me too, reading this thread.
How I love the Ship.
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Bad Christian (TM)
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Dunked thrice and quickly enough that the infant doesn't take too much in. Indeed, the shock is so great that they hold their breath. And then scream loudly when released from the water.
A trick from infant swimming classes - blow in the baby's face. This makes him close his eyes and mouth, ready for a quick dunk.
Also, if you move the baby through the water a little, so he's moving head first, he doesn't get a shot of water up the nose.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Dunked thrice and quickly enough that the infant doesn't take too much in. Indeed, the shock is so great that they hold their breath. And then scream loudly when released from the water.
Thurible
If a baby screams at the baptism, s/he will also scream at Satan.....
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Quite. I whispered to Mrs Thurible, whilst nappying-up the newly-baptised, "That's Satan on his way!"
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
I was told that if the child screamed/cried at the baptism it was an indication that the child would be a good singer or public speaker.
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AngloCatholicGirl
Shipmate
# 16435
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Posted
I had one little chap who screamed all the way through (to the point that I asked the parents if they were ok for me to go ahead) from the minute we came to the front till we had completed the baptismal formula.
After the service, as she was leaving one elderly lady said to me 'well the devil certainly came out of that little boy!' I'd never come across this idea before, I have to say, anyone else come across it before?
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Love is the wisdom of the fool and the folly of the wise -Samuel Johnson
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Anna B
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# 1439
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicGirl:
After the service, as she was leaving one elderly lady said to me 'well the devil certainly came out of that little boy!' I'd never come across this idea before, I have to say, anyone else come across it before?
Oh yes. My infant son screamed with all his might when the water hit his head. The priest looked up at the (standing-room-only) congregation and said, "That's the devil coming out."
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Bad Christian (TM)
Posts: 3069 | From: near a lot of fish | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anna B
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# 1439
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Posted
(This was at an Episcopal church in New Haven, Connecticut)
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Bad Christian (TM)
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Heh heh ... Terry Waite used to tell a story about a country vicar who was hard of hearing. He was an intimidating character so when he boomed at a farm labourer one day who was presenting his daughter for baptism, asking for the name of the child, the poor man muttered, 'Lucy, sir ...'
So the poor child was baptised 'Lucifer' ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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AngloCatholicGirl
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# 16435
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anna B:
quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicGirl:
After the service, as she was leaving one elderly lady said to me 'well the devil certainly came out of that little boy!' I'd never come across this idea before, I have to say, anyone else come across it before?
Oh yes. My infant son screamed with all his might when the water hit his head. The priest looked up at the (standing-room-only) congregation and said, "That's the devil coming out."
Thanks, that's interesting to know it's found on the other side of the pond too. I don't know if I would say to the congregation during the actual baptism that that was the devil coming out. Out of curiosity Anna B were you ok with that?
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Love is the wisdom of the fool and the folly of the wise -Samuel Johnson
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Heh heh ... Terry Waite used to tell a story about a country vicar who was hard of hearing. He was an intimidating character so when he boomed at a farm labourer one day who was presenting his daughter for baptism, asking for the name of the child, the poor man muttered, 'Lucy, sir ...'
So the poor child was baptised 'Lucifer' ...
The other version I've heard is that the priest bellowed back "Lucifer? Certainly not! " he then sprinkled water over the baby girl with the words "John, I baptise you in the name of the Father..."
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
My three sons were baptised as infants by full immersion, one in a full size baptistry! [...]
I'm waiting for the day when one of them expresses a desire for believer's baptism to see how I will react. I hope it will be with joy.
[copied from the other thread]
And if they do, will you have them "re-baptised" like a schismatical anabaptist? I'm sure your bishop will love that...
I know of a churchgoing Anglican in my city who went to the Baptist church down the road when she wanted to be baptised by immersion. The local Baptists and Anglicans seemed okay with that, to judge from what she said, although I don't know how it was arranged. She's still an Anglican, but has avoided embarrassing her denomination. I suppose it helps that these two congregations are friendly with each other.
This isn't the first time I've heard of individuals seeking and acquiring re-baptism elsewhere while remaining part of their paedobaptist churches. I think it must be very rare in British churches but possibly more common in some other countries.
[ 18. July 2013, 18:12: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Anna B
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# 1439
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicGirl:
Out of curiosity Anna B were you ok with that?
Since you ask, no, I wasn't particularly. If the compilers of our Prayer Book had wished, in the event of a lusty scream, for priests to remark on the presence of the devil, I am certain they would have provided for such.
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Bad Christian (TM)
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daronmedway
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# 3012
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Posted
There is a prayer for deliverance in the Common Worship liturgy.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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