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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Atheist church
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
Apparently, London now hosts an atheist church , operating under the banner of The Sunday Assembly. They managed to draw over 200 people on the Sunday reported, which is a respectable number these days.
Can atheists go to an "atheist church"?
Is atheism a religion?
(We may have had this debate before, but these two linked items just appeared, and I thought there was a discussion here)
There is also a note in the second linked article about the self-imposed travails of the Church of England, and the rapid rise of the "unchurched".
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Can atheists go to an "atheist church"?
If so, what's the difference between going to an "atheist church", an "atheist synagogue", an "atheist mosque", and an "atheist temple"?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Can atheists go to an "atheist church"?
If so, what's the difference between going to an "atheist church", an "atheist synagogue", an "atheist mosque", and an "atheist temple"?
An old story, no doubt apocryphal:
Some time after Albania became officially 100% communist, a man's father died and he took him to the cemetery to bury him. Albanian cemeteries at the time (may still be; I dunno) were segregated: Christians in one part, and Muslims in another. The man speaks to the undertaker, who asks, "Was your father a Christian, or Muslim?"
The man fears a trick. Who wants to get hauled off to jail, or worse? "Um, he was a good atheist, like everybody in Albania."
The undertaker sighs. "Fine. Was he a Christian atheist, or a Muslim atheist?"
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Porridge
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# 15405
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Posted
Beats me. I can imagine attending an atheist discussion group, just barely. But what's to be said after, "I don't believe in God?" People who DO believe have lots of interesting conversion / epiphany / enlightenment / "testimony" stories to entertain themselves with, but atheism doesn't really seem to lend itself to this sort of thing. "How I Came To Realize That My Faith Was All A Pack Of Superstitious Nonsense" just doesn't sound terribly, er, inspirational.
I suppose proselytizing atheists could start mapping out strategies and programs for converting the apparently-deluded faithful, but as for me, I won't be sacrificing any Sunday morning sleep-ins for such endeavors any time soon. Can't be bothered.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
I can understand a desire for a community, which many in modern society lack. An atheist friend of mine in a distant city called me the other night and said he was joining a climate action group partly to find some friends.
And if they they have children then maybe it could be seen as a place to find friends. The article talked of nostalgia. It appears there are aspects of church they miss even though they no longer can accept church teaching.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
I see their motto is quote:
live better, help often, wonder more
They should be careful - there's no telling what kind of thing wondering might lead to.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I've heard of this sort of thing in America, but I didn't think it would catch in in the UK.
Mind you, London is a special case. Even the Unitarians are growing in popularity there, so I understand.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Can atheists go to an "atheist church"?
If so, what's the difference between going to an "atheist church", an "atheist synagogue", an "atheist mosque", and an "atheist temple"?
Search me. But from the link - quote:
Critics have suggested by holding the meeting in an old church, (albeit deconsecrated) and by following a format of songs interspersed by reading and addresses, the comedians are at risk of turning atheism into its own sort of religion
- since they are using a prayer sandwich, they are obviously protestant atheists.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
I can understand a desire for a community, which many in modern society lack. An atheist friend of mine in a distant city called me the other night and said he was joining a climate action group partly to find some friends.
And if they they have children then maybe it could be seen as a place to find friends. The article talked of nostalgia. It appears there are aspects of church they miss even though they no longer can accept church teaching.
I guess that's what it is about. And they don't see the need for GOD to be latched on.
Quote: Revd Saviour Grech of Saint Peter and Saint Paul Roman Catholic Church in Clerkenwell told the Islington Gazette “ ..... Who will they be singing to?
Themselves? If I may say so, like some Christians. And why not? Singing and music are important as a cement in relationships and a way of expressing ideas, hopes, fears. It's why I am happy to play the organ for a congregation whilst not sharing their beliefs.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Our esteemed Captain paid a visit - sounds good.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good report, too.
And he said I missed the familiar, faith-based aspects of meeting with others, but also realised that a good percentage of church – any church – is made up of friendship, listening, singing, laughter, giving, receiving and cups of tea.
Amen and amen!
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
It all sounds like self gratifying rubbish to me.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
The article talked of nostalgia. It appears there are aspects of church they miss even though they no longer can accept church teaching.
The reference to nostalgia implies that the founders or participants were once familiar with church life, which is very interesting. In one article Pippa Evans states that she went through a big 'Christian phase' when she was a teenager, so that would explain her interest. But I wonder if the idea of belonging to an 'atheist church' would appeal to people who have no experience of being part of a religious community.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
Of course this is quasi-religious, because it is specifically atheistic. Therefore it must involve the celebration of a particular view of reality, given that the denial of God is not in the same category as denying the invisible pink unicorn. God is not a trivial concept with no implications.
If they really wanted to create a totally non-religious church, then they should just say: "We are meeting together to celebrate life, and we are not Christian, atheist, agnostic or, in fact, anything at all. Just a bunch of human beings with our multiplicity of different viewpoints."
Now that really would be radical.
I'm afraid the atheists are not radical at all, but boringly conformist. It's just aping religion.
It's quite ironic really. For much of my Christian life, Christians have been aping the world, creating Christian versions of this, that and the other. It really is quite amusing to see atheists tacitly giving Christianity so much respect that they feel the need to copy it.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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CL
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# 16145
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Posted
Is calling oneself a Unitarian passé nowadays?
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Is calling oneself a Unitarian passé nowadays?
Unitarian is a form of theism, though. No help if you are an atheist
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It all sounds like self gratifying rubbish to me.
Like any number of churches.
I like the urge to show that generosity and community is not necessarily tied to religion. It's long been noted that atheists on the whole seem less altruistic than theists at least in giving to charity. Maybe it makes sense that Humanists want to stand up for humanity and all the good things humans are other than religious.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Maybe it makes sense that Humanists want to stand up for humanity and all the good things humans are other than religious.
"Humans stand up to say how good humans are" is precisely the self gratifying rubbish I was talking about.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Is calling oneself a Unitarian passé nowadays?
Unitarian is a form of theism, though. No help if you are an atheist
Surely Quaker atheism is possible though? Lots of essentially atheist (although not antitheist) Quakers about. But I guess that would involve not being self-absorbed Gen-Xers.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Maybe it makes sense that Humanists want to stand up for humanity and all the good things humans are other than religious.
"Humans stand up to say how good humans are" is precisely the self gratifying rubbish I was talking about.
Pretty much. Of course people like Humanism, it gives people the 'religious' warm fuzzies without the responsibility, and no nasty mentions of how humanity fails.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
There are atheist Unitarians as well as atheist Quakers, so I understand.
Unitarianism seems to have drifted from public consciousness in quite a big way, though. There were Unitarian families in the UK in the early 20th c. Today, the idea that Unitarians exist in family groups as opposed to being individuals on a spiritual search seems somewhat strange! I wonder if this 'atheist church' is more likely to attract families or single people?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There are atheist Unitarians as well as atheist Quakers, so I understand.
Unitarianism seems to have drifted from public consciousness in quite a big way, though. There were Unitarian families in the UK in the early 20th c. Today, the idea that Unitarians exist in family groups as opposed to being individuals on a spiritual search seems somewhat strange! I wonder if this 'atheist church' is more likely to attract families or single people?
I think Unitarian families are more common in the US, or at least were - it's mentioned in The Bell Jar, actually.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Boston old money, what we call the Boston Brahmin, was Unitarian back in the day, though I hear a good number of them have since come over to the Episcopal Church.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Maybe it makes sense that Humanists want to stand up for humanity and all the good things humans are other than religious.
"Humans stand up to say how good humans are" is precisely the self gratifying rubbish I was talking about.
That's an intentional misunderstanding of LR. Right?
Or you just want to provide an example to the "judgmental" thread.
[ 24. January 2013, 01:16: Message edited by: Latchkey Kid ]
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
That's an intentional misunderstanding of LR. Right?
Or you just want to provide an example to the "judgmental" thread.
I was expressing my estimation of these silly atheist services.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Non-sequiturs be damned.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Have you watched Game of Thrones, Latch? It has to be more interesting than whatever you're on about here.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Maybe it makes sense that Humanists want to stand up for humanity and all the good things humans are other than religious.
"Humans stand up to say how good humans are" is precisely the self gratifying rubbish I was talking about.
Talk about picking up the extremist end of the stick there.
Ipso facto along those lines when "humans stand up to say how good God is" it's self denying rubbish.
Game of Thrones is logical at least.
[ 24. January 2013, 02:38: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
The High School I attended in New York was founded by the Ethical Culture Society which is not avowedly atheist but mostly consisted of atheists of Jewish origin. There are regular Sunday meetings, often in special meetinghouses and there's a general emphsis on moral and ethical principals in self improvement and doing philanthropic works and the education of children. There are small groups all over the United States since the founding of the first group over a hundred years ago.
I never atteneded many meetings or was interested. But the people seemed sincere and have done some useful work as well as providing a community.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Of course people like Humanism, it gives people the 'religious' warm fuzzies without the responsibility, and no nasty mentions of how humanity fails.
You think humanists lack responsibility?
What for?
From the Captain's blog -
quote:
I came away liking the Sunday Assembly and I hope it does well. I missed the familiar, faith-based aspects of meeting with others, but also realised that a good percentage of church – any church – is made up of friendship, listening, singing, laughter, giving, receiving and cups of tea.
It’s good to sit with atheists in their space and feel welcome. It’s challenging to think about living better, helping often and wondering more. I think this is a place where Christians should be.
I agree, but I'm not sure just how much I'd miss the 'faith-based' aspects! I believe my own Church does a great deal of good in the world ('Takes responsibility') But I think it could do them just as well without reference to God.
Whenever we have efforts (eg food bank, luncheon club, overseas work, night stop support etc) people who are not keen on the 'God bits' turn up to help out, doubling the numbers. These are partners, children etc of the 'Churchy' ones. They love the good we do, the community feel, the fun we have etc - but don't believe in God. It's a small step to imagine them gathering in community like the Sunday assembly does.
[ 24. January 2013, 05:56: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
There are good things and bad things about religion, and the same can be said for ‘non-religion’. One of the best things, nay, the best thing, about religion is its facilitation and catalysis of charitable and humanitarian activity. At this stage in the cultural development of Western society, ‘non-religion’ is patently not as good at this kind of stuff, but I imagine that will change with time, as we dispose of the cumbersome cons of religion and firmly put the human in Humanism. In a couple of hundred years, we might well be looking back on organised religion as the adolescent rites of passage of mankind, with all its acne, mood swings and voracious libido.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
An old story, no doubt apocryphal:
Some time after Albania became officially 100% communist, a man's father died and he took him to the cemetery to bury him. Albanian cemeteries at the time (may still be; I dunno) were segregated: Christians in one part, and Muslims in another. The man speaks to the undertaker, who asks, "Was your father a Christian, or Muslim?"
The man fears a trick. Who wants to get hauled off to jail, or worse? "Um, he was a good atheist, like everybody in Albania."
The undertaker sighs. "Fine. Was he a Christian atheist, or a Muslim atheist?"
Apocryphal? Perhaps. But well rooted in reality. My Buddhist friends in Northern Ireland get asked a similar question all the time.
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Have you watched Game of Thrones, Latch? It has to be more interesting than whatever you're on about here.
You'd be a natural on the ∂y/∂x thread if you could cut out the judgmentalism.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Can atheists go to an "atheist church"?
If so, what's the difference between going to an "atheist church", an "atheist synagogue", an "atheist mosque", and an "atheist temple"?
A world of difference, I would have thought - one's atheism is coloured by the theism one is 'a'-ing ...
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Maybe it makes sense that Humanists want to stand up for humanity and all the good things humans are other than religious.
"Humans stand up to say how good humans are" is precisely the self gratifying rubbish I was talking about.
Pretty much. Of course people like Humanism, it gives people the 'religious' warm fuzzies without the responsibility, and no nasty mentions of how humanity fails.
Seems to me like an equal and opposite reaction to the lack of mention in 'normal' churches for God responsibility, and how he fails ...
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I agree that atheist church sounds rather silly. Although I think I get the idea. It’s not something I would attend, except perhaps as critical observer rather than a sympathetic participant. Doesn’t this describe some church-goers?
It seems to be being suggested that church has some sort of monopoly in meaningful gathering together. Not so, of course. After 60 years in the church I could now choose to find aspects of church in a pub, in a sports club, in clubbing (perish the thought), in any number of local societies, in concerts / gigs, in voluntary work, and in lots more.
EntymologicalEvangelical: quote:
God is not a trivial concept with no implications.
I’ll settle for ‘God is not’.
Jade Constable: quote:
Pretty much. Of course people like Humanism, it gives people the 'religious' warm fuzzies without the responsibility, and no nasty mentions of how humanity fails.
And the nasty mentions of how church fails? And does harm?
Boogie: your description of church would be my ideal; IMO all churches should be like that. Recently, a preacher in the church where I play the organ stated ‘If you don’t have a relationship with God you are wasting your time coming to church’ – I told him what I thought afterwards!
Porridge: quote:
People who DO believe have lots of interesting conversion / epiphany / enlightenment / "testimony" stories to entertain themselves with, but atheism doesn't really seem to lend itself to this sort of thing. "How I Came To Realize That My Faith Was All A Pack Of Superstitious Nonsense" just doesn't sound terribly, er, inspirational.
Statements like this do no good for Christians: atheism / agnosticism / humanism / non-theism cannot be and should not be dismissed in this way. I see myself on a continuing pilgrimage of discovery. So, now as a non-theist, I welcome conversations with people who have traveled before me. And I don’t tell my friends that I think they believe a ‘pack of superstitious nonsense’. If I wanted to be brutally honest and nasty I’d say that many Christians that I have come across never get beyond the ‘I came to Jesus and he changed my life’ story.
Maybe I will go to an atheist church gathering!
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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George Spigot
Outcast
# 253
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Maybe it makes sense that Humanists want to stand up for humanity and all the good things humans are other than religious.
"Humans stand up to say how good humans are" is precisely the self gratifying rubbish I was talking about.
Pretty much. Of course people like Humanism, it gives people the 'religious' warm fuzzies without the responsibility, and no nasty mentions of how humanity fails.
Don't you have that upside down? Without the devil to blame or gods plan to follow doesn't that lead to more responsibility not less?
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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Statements like this do no good for Christians: atheism / agnosticism / humanism / non-theism cannot be and should not be dismissed in this way.
I am frequently embarrassed by my fellow Christians who need to put down others. My hunch is that it stems from their own insecurity. If not they have their own (metaphorical) demons that they need to exorcise (metaphorically again.) I do get annoyed that they make things more difficult for me. As a Chaplain I have to be prepared to allay the frequent suspicion of my motives.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Don't you have that upside down? Without the devil to blame or gods plan to follow doesn't that lead to more responsibility not less?
Yep. (Perhaps not always in reality.)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Maybe it makes sense that Humanists want to stand up for humanity and all the good things humans are other than religious.
"Humans stand up to say how good humans are" is precisely the self gratifying rubbish I was talking about.
Saying it, maybe. Striving to to make it so it is a different matter, and collective encouragement and monitoring is a major facilitator to that end.
Religions do well when they do this but they have no 'god-given' advantage over collective secular action, just a different locus of motivation. As Lyda*Rose previously noted, any number of churches are as guilty of spouting self-gratifying rubbish as any non-god-imaginers. A religion is only as good as its ability to counter such base behaviour. But the effort required to do that is as much a human trait as the inclination to indulge in it.
With reference to Jade Constable: "Humanity fails"...
Humanity tries again... Humanity wins.
(Earlier responses noted)
[ 24. January 2013, 10:10: Message edited by: kankucho ]
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Re responsibility, I meant that with no concept of sin, there is no sense of humanity as a whole being responsible for evil. Perhaps accountability would be a better word.
The church only fails on the human side - it's we who fail God, not the other way around.
Kancucho, how exactly has humanity won? Ever?
As a Christian I believe the true purpose of humanity is ultimately to serve and worship God (serving others being part of that) - so of course I'll feel dismissive of a belief system that excludes God from life. For me atheism/humanism/agnosticism is missing the whole point of life.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
It's precisely the God bits that stop church from becoming merely a weekly assembly of tacky guitar music and peer pressure. "Golly, I just need to sing in unison for a while and be lectured on ethics by a hypocrite to be a better person and prop up my self esteem!"
If you want fellowship and singing in unison, go to a pub affiliated with your favorite sports team. Or a political rally, if you need the illusion of relevance. The article named the only reason to opt for atheist church over those- nostalgia.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Re responsibility, I meant that with no concept of sin, there is no sense of humanity as a whole being responsible for evil. Perhaps accountability would be a better word.
Sorry, I can't make sense of that - apart from the fact that your use of the word 'sin' is unfortunate when you communicate with Christians (just that it is a religious term). However, this would lead into a wholly different discussion, methinks, about the nature of 'evil' and of the 'whole' of humanity being responsible or accountable.
quote:
The church only fails on the human side - it's we who fail God, not the other way around.
Only if you believe in GOD (as you admit you do).
quote:
As a Christian I believe the true purpose of humanity is ultimately to serve and worship God (serving others being part of that) - so of course I'll feel dismissive of a belief system that excludes God from life. For me atheism/humanism/agnosticism is missing the whole point of life.
As you say, 'for you'.
'Dismissive' is a word guaranteed to get up the nose of those who have been within faith but come out of it - and also many within the faith, I suspect. Perhaps it's simply an unfortunate choice of word - IMO Christians (and everyone else) should not dismiss anyone or any beliefs that exclude the concept of GODS.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It's precisely the God bits that stop church from becoming merely a weekly assembly of tacky guitar music and peer pressure.
I wish!
Which planet are you on Zach82? Or perhaps your church is different? Perhaps it needs a Mystery Worship! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
It's precisely the God bits that stop church from becoming merely a weekly assembly of tacky guitar music and peer pressure.
I wish!
Which planet are you on Zach82? Or perhaps your church is different? Perhaps it needs a Mystery Worship!
While I'm on my soap box (how long has it been since soap has come in wooden creates anyway?) the question framing this whole affair for me is "Why bother with church at all?"
I see a lot of Christian theology that simply cannot answer that question. Why not chuck church and man a soup kitchen line for a couple hours every Sunday? Why not just hang out at the pub with some friends?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Don't you have that upside down? Without the devil to blame or gods plan to follow doesn't that lead to more responsibility not less?
Why? On what basis?
More responsibility for what?
Atheism provides no answers at all.
What fills the vacuum are other values derived from Christianity.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
If all these people want is a Sunday morning social club with a vaguely "religious" feel I don't see why they don't just join the CofE.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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kankucho
Shipmate
# 14318
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Re responsibility, I meant that with no concept of sin, there is no sense of humanity as a whole being responsible for evil. Perhaps accountability would be a better word.
The church only fails on the human side - it's we who fail God, not the other way around.
Kancucho, how exactly has humanity won? Ever?
As a Christian I believe the true purpose of humanity is ultimately to serve and worship God (serving others being part of that) - so of course I'll feel dismissive of a belief system that excludes God from life. For me atheism/humanism/agnosticism is missing the whole point of life.
Jade, the conversation about sin minus God has been going on here for a while and the theists are always going to say one thing while the atheists sing a chorus of It Ain't Necessarily So. Maybe it's officially a dead horse by now? I don't look in there much. Certainly, I don't see it being resolved by any marginal input I can offer.
As a human being, with your human volition, you have chosen to externalise your locus of motivation to something you call God. Perhaps you have also wrapped the whole package up nicely by choosing to regard your innate function of volition as itself God's gift to you. If that has made you happy, then I'm also happy for you. If it has also been an effective motivator for you to rein in your naughtier tendencies, then I'm even happier because you're one less person in the world who is going to do damage to me or my environment. This means that you contribute to my own happiness, for which I'm grateful.
However, when you say "it's we who fail God, not the other way around", both sides of that statement are meaningless to me and to anyone else who doesn't share your chosen locus.
How has humanity won? It wins every time its members express courage, compassion, wisdom... (insert other positive human traits of your choice here). Every time. It loses every time it expresses greed, anger, ignorance...
Among other labels I choose, I consider myself to be a humanist. Responsibility for my courage, compassion and wisdom is solely on my shoulders. Whether I'm any more successful at being courageous, compassionate and wise than you isn't something isn't something we can or should argue about as strangers in cyberspace. But I can only offer that I win quite a lot of the time.
Insofar as humanity survives, and maintains personal, social and environmental support systems - in the face of so many opportunities to do otherwise - I'd say humanity's record of winning still stands at >50%. On the whole, I'm optimistic, and am saddened by those who use lofty belief systems to justify not being so.
[edit: Quote added for clarity]
[ 24. January 2013, 12:11: Message edited by: kankucho ]
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
Kankucho Bird Blues
Posts: 1262 | From: Kuon-ganjo, E17 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
If all these people want is a Sunday morning social club with a vaguely "religious" feel I don't see why they don't just join the CofE.
Because they've grown up in the Catholic church and can't bring themselves to see the truth: been too disillusioned by the hypocrisy.
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a theological scrapbook
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