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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Peradventure there shall Leo be found there
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
When Leo was strangely fixated with Anti-Semitism that only he could see, I didn't join the conversation, but now he's using similarly unique knowledge about other people's experience to arguechurches are so nasty that LGBT Christians would be better off as Buddhists (no, actually, we wouldn't).
The unifying theme seems to be that all Christians (or at least 99+%) of them are bigots, but that Leo has found special enlightenment that allows him both to see and avoid their bigotry.
{For what it's worth, I'm not denying that Christianity has a shameful history of both Anti-Semitism and homophobia; what I'm objecting to is that Leo's interest seems primarily to be in using this to burnish his own halo as the only righteous man in Sodom and the only non-bigoted Christian in the world}.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Buddhism has a slightly murky, varied history regarding homosexuality. Largely influenced by the tradition and culture a particular group/person is part of. But Buddhism is not so much about condemnation regardless.
So I would say it is a fair point from an acceptance of sexuality POV, especially amongst Western Buddhists.
Not so much if said LBGT are truly Christian in their hearts.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Buddhism has a slightly murky, varied history regarding homosexuality. Largely influenced by the tradition and culture a particular group/person is part of. But Buddhism is not so much about condemnation regardless.
So I would say it is a fair point from an acceptance of sexuality POV, especially amongst Western Buddhists.
Not so much if said LBGT are truly Christian in their hearts.
Buddhism's 'slightly murky' history on LGBT issues was present in my mind, but they didn't occupy more than about 5%. The other 95% was occupied with how incredibly insulting Leo's statement was: 'most Christian churches (but not the one where I'm a minister, obviously) are so horrible that I (a Christian minister) tell gay people that they should become Buddhists'. Which, despite his extravagant protestations about being the world's most Inclusive™ person, isn't actually very welcoming.
I do actually feel a bit bad about starting this thread, as I find Leo's comments in Dead Horses really useful, but his posting style in Ecclessiantics is driving me insane.
[ 19. September 2013, 20:12: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
If leo was my experience of Christians, I'd probably find Buddhism attractive as well.
EDIT: I promise to only make a Don Quixote reference every second post. But they're so damn apt.
[ 19. September 2013, 23:52: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
I'm surprised he didn't recommend Islam, as they also seem to be able to do no wrong in his eyes.
He seems to be able to see fault only in Christianity, I often wonder why he doesn't convert to a different religion?
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Because he knows his mere presence would wreck it?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Back in the 1970s everyone went through a Buddhist phase while reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Most of us wore helmets while riding them however. Only a select few made their own out of tinfoil.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...So I would say it is a fair point from an acceptance of sexuality POV, especially amongst Western Buddhists....
Yes, but Western Buddhists are mostly white middle-class hippies. (The white middle-classness, by the way, is the reason why they tend to be influential in interfaith structures out of all proportion to their numbers. Same goes for Baha'is.)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
Leo’s comments in relation to churches are solely based on his experience of Anglicanism. There are lots of Anglican churches that warmly welcome LGBT – they just might not be on your doorstep. There are also whole swathes of churches outside Anglicanism that do give LGBTs a warm welcome which might be.
I’d imagine it’s a bit of a balancing act between what’s more important – a church that’s sufficiently welcoming or a church that’s the right sort. (I’d always go for the church that’s sufficiently welcoming, but that’s just me).
The thought that a Christian’s idea of witnessing is to tell other people not to bother with Christianity and try something completely different is a bit mind-boggling to say the least. Apples and oranges doesn’t even begin to cover the differences between Christianity and Buddhism. It also strikes me as being completely self defeating. Not really being the change you want to be now is it?!
The other problem is that for someone who’s constantly lecturing the Ship about the need to be welcoming, inclusive, not prejudiced etc, Leo is pretty much all of those things. Just like us all, really. Sadly, I suspect the idea that Leo is as bigoted as the next person – unless that person is Nick Griffths, then I might cut him a bit of slack – is probably news to Leo.
From his posts it sounds like he really, really believes that no one else should be allowed to sing hymns, take part in Christian festivals or read bits of the Bible if he doesn’t agree with or like them. So, that’s goodbye to “My love is …”, Christmas hymns at Christmas, the Passion etc.
Most people I know – including me – just don’t sing those verses or just zone out for a bit when that happens. Some even manage to understand that others may see things differently or have different tastes. Not Leo. He wants to Put A Stop To That Kind of Thing ™. He is the (self appointed) Guardian of What Is Right and Proper ™.
Tubbs
[ 20. September 2013, 11:56: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
S. Bacchus,
You may not know this, but it's considered good form on the Ship to PM the subject of a Hell call so they know about it and can respond if they wish. (Not sure if Leo will wish!)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Indeed - I had no such notice.
If I am in hell because of standing up for LGBT people and Jews, then I shall be proud to stay here while this thread descends, as they always do, into name-calling and mutual recrimination.
The persecution of LGBTs in the churches is common knowledge, as is the churches' long history of anti-Judaism.
As for Islam, yes, I agree, there is much worse persecution of gay men in so-called muslim countries - there could follow a long debate about what is islamic and what is corrupt dictatorship. which isn't relevant here.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
There are also whole swathes of churches outside Anglicanism that do give LGBTs a warm welcome which might be. .....I suspect the idea that Leo is as bigoted as the next person
Welcoming LGBT couples? Blessing their relationships? Giving them the sacraments without their repending of their state of mortal sin?
RCs - by far the largest denomination - no
The orthodoxen - mainly see it as a pastoral, rather than a juridical, issue. But those theologians, like Fr. Hopko, who argue that there is a place for celibate gays in the church are labelled 'liberal' - so what about the rest?
Right - that's 75% of Christians accounted for.
Now the rest:
Salvation Army won't allow LGBT officers
Baptists - remember Steve Chalke and the outrage? Southern baptists anyone?
C of E. - remember Archbishop Welby's statement of how the 'traditional teaching', with which he agrees, is seen as 'hatred' in the UK.
Methodists - still on what they call a journey of faith - one methodist minister that i know did a blessing in a Quaker meeting house because she wasn't allowed to to do in a church building.
URC - probably the most accepting - their report on the subject begins with lived experience rather than biblical proof texts.
Bigot? Yes, I am probably bigotted against bigots. Typical liberal trap innit?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...So I would say it is a fair point from an acceptance of sexuality POV, especially amongst Western Buddhists....
Yes, but Western Buddhists are mostly white middle-class hippies. (The white middle-classness, by the way, is the reason why they tend to be influential in interfaith structures out of all proportion to their numbers. Same goes for Baha'is.)
Bertrand Russell observed(though I think the observation was probably commonplace by the time he came along) that the English Romantics had a soft spot for Catholicism, but as an act of rebellion, it only made sense within a protestant culture. In a Cathoilc country, allying with the Church would be the most conformist thing you could possibly do.
Having lived for a while in a country that is about a quarter Buddhist, I'll say that, while Buddhism over here isn't exactly the polar opposite of what hippyish westerners imagine, it doesn't perfectly match the idealized version either. I believe westerners often associate Buddhism with vegetarianism, for example, but the number of vegetarians here is somewhere less than 1% of the population, and a hefty chunk of those are likely Seventh Day Adventists.
[ 20. September 2013, 15:05: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted leo:
If I am in hell because of standing up for LGBT people and Jews, then I shall be proud to stay here while this thread descends, as they always do, into name-calling and mutual recrimination.
Let me get this straight...you were called to Hell by a LGBT person for standing up for LGBT persons?
Right
quote:
originally posted by leo:
Bigot? Yes, I am probably bigotted against bigots. Typical liberal trap innit?
Dang skippy
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
There are also whole swathes of churches outside Anglicanism that do give LGBTs a warm welcome which might be. .....I suspect the idea that Leo is as bigoted as the next person
Welcoming LGBT couples? Blessing their relationships? Giving them the sacraments without their repending of their state of mortal sin?
RCs - by far the largest denomination - no
The orthodoxen - mainly see it as a pastoral, rather than a juridical, issue. But those theologians, like Fr. Hopko, who argue that there is a place for celibate gays in the church are labelled 'liberal' - so what about the rest?
Right - that's 75% of Christians accounted for.
Now the rest:
Salvation Army won't allow LGBT officers
Baptists - remember Steve Chalke and the outrage? Southern baptists anyone?
C of E. - remember Archbishop Welby's statement of how the 'traditional teaching', with which he agrees, is seen as 'hatred' in the UK.
Methodists - still on what they call a journey of faith - one methodist minister that i know did a blessing in a Quaker meeting house because she wasn't allowed to to do in a church building.
URC - probably the most accepting - their report on the subject begins with lived experience rather than biblical proof texts.
Bigot? Yes, I am probably bigotted against bigots. Typical liberal trap innit?
No it isn’t. You’re confusing official teaching with how things are done in the church on the corner and the amount of hot air an issue generates with attitudes.
CofE, RCs, Orthodox etc – The official line is quietly ignored in many churches and LGBT couples welcomed. (Blessings are harder as doing them would put clergy at risk of losing their job and their home – that said, there are probably some brave souls who’ve done so or who have said prayers with people in private).
Pope Francis recently said that the church was spending far too much time on these issues, made some positive comments about tolerence etc but not indicated there will be a shift in the church's main teaching. It's a start!
Unitarians, Quakers etc – I believe it’s all cool with them. Didn’t the first gay marriage in a religious building take place in a Unitarian church?! But let’s ignore them as they don’t fit your argument.
Baptists – FFS. Southern Baptists are equal opportunity haters and aren’t members of any of the Federations that other Baptists belong to. As Baptist churches have congregational government, there is no party line. In the UK, congregations decide whether or not their building can be used for LGBT blessings / marriage. Baptist ministers can’t currently perform those blessings / marriages without putting their accreditation at risk. There was a lot of fuss about Chalke – but much of it was to do with the fact that he’d not followed Ministerial protocol. (“Opps, I didn’t know I wasn’t supposed too” isn’t really a great defence!) Chalke asked his church meeting if he could perform the ceremony and they said yes! The discussion in the wider church is on-going.
Methodists / URC – Depends on the minister and congregation I guess.
Muslims / Sections of the Jewish community – Not likely to be sending a float to a gay Pride march any time soon.
And Leo, you’re not bigoted against bigots … You’re just a common old garden bigot. You don’t acknowledge any view accept your own as having any value. And, tbh, there are probably times when, although your heart is probably in the right place, those you’re attempted to defend would rather not have you on their side.
Tubbs
[ 20. September 2013, 15:35: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Unitarians, Quakers etc – I believe it’s all cool with them. Didn’t the first gay marriage in a religious building take place in a Unitarian church?! But let’s ignore them as they don’t fit your argument.
I have some on-again, off-again involvement with Unitarianism(mostly on-line these days), and, while there are groups within Unitarianism who identify as Christian, overall I would not call contemporary Unitarianism Christian.
Or at least not in North America. I think British Unitarianism is slightly more open to embracing the Christian label. The official title there is "Unitarian and Free Christian Churches", though I still don't think they mandate any creedal beliefs about Jesus, just promote his ethical teachings as exemplary.
[ 20. September 2013, 15:45: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
...So I would say it is a fair point from an acceptance of sexuality POV, especially amongst Western Buddhists....
Yes, but Western Buddhists are mostly white middle-class hippies. (The white middle-classness, by the way, is the reason why they tend to be influential in interfaith structures out of all proportion to their numbers. Same goes for Baha'is.)
Bertrand Russell observed(though I think the observation was probably commonplace by the time he came along) that the English Romantics had a soft spot for Catholicism, but as an act of rebellion, it only made sense within a protestant culture. In a Cathoilc country, allying with the Church would be the most conformist thing you could possibly do.
Having lived for a while in a country that is about a quarter Buddhist, I'll say that, while Buddhism over here isn't exactly the polar opposite of what hippyish westerners imagine, it doesn't perfectly match the idealized version either. I believe westerners often associate Buddhism with vegetarianism, for example, but the number of vegetarians here is somewhere less than 1% of the population, and a hefty chunk of those are likely Seventh Day Adventists.
Not to go on too much of a tangent, but location does not confer authenticity in the practice of one's religion. Nor does length of practice.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Unitarians, Quakers etc – I believe it’s all cool with them. Didn’t the first gay marriage in a religious building take place in a Unitarian church?! But let’s ignore them as they don’t fit your argument.
I have some on-again, off-again involvement with Unitarianism(mostly on-line these days), and, while there are groups within Unitarianism who identify as Christian, overall I would not call contemporary Unitarianism Christian.
Or at least not in North America. I think British Unitarianism is slightly more open to embracing the Christian label. The official title there is "Unitarian and Free Christian Churches", though I still don't think they mandate any creedal beliefs about Jesus, just promote his ethical teachings as exemplary.
I think you'll find that it's Quakers who don't mandate credal beliefs whereas Unitarians specifically reject the Trinity. This is why they are(were?) excluded from membership of most Churches Together-type organisations.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Unitarians, Quakers etc – I believe it’s all cool with them. Didn’t the first gay marriage in a religious building take place in a Unitarian church?! But let’s ignore them as they don’t fit your argument.....
Muslims / Sections of the Jewish community – Not likely to be sending a float to a gay Pride march any time soon.
And Leo, you’re not bigoted against bigots … You’re just a common old garden bigot. You don’t acknowledge any view accept your own as having any value. And, tbh, there are probably times when, although your heart is probably in the right place, those you’re attempted to defend would rather not have you on their side.
Tubbs
Muslims were at a Pride here. in London
Re Unitarians and Quakers, someone else has already pointed out that they aren't Christian churches (though some older Friends wish that they were)
As for bigotry - if i didn't 'acknowsledge any views of than (my) own as having any value, i wouldn't bother to engage with them on The Ship, or in interfaith dialogue, which takes up a lot of my time.
On online dictionary defines a bigot as 'a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race' - seeing as i talk with lots of people in other religions, since i stand up for BOTH integrities on the women priests/bishops issue, since I attend and engage with evangelicals who form the majority at our deanery chapter, seeing as I have two close friends, one who is a Tory, another a LibDem, since I have been involved in anti-racist education for 30 years....
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted leo:
If I am in hell because of standing up for LGBT people and Jews, then I shall be proud to stay here while this thread descends, as they always do, into name-calling and mutual recrimination.
Let me get this straight...you were called to Hell by a LGBT person for standing up for LGBT persons?
Yes, I am gay (I'm not personally L,B, or T, though, so it would be more accurate to say that I am a gay man and a member of that nebulous thing that is the LGBT 'community'). I'm also probably more Jewish than leo is (I'm not halachically but I have Jewish family and actually considered converting in my teens). And frankly, I think leo's outrageous sanctimonious response justifies my hell call, about which I was initially ambivalent.
I'll try to explain this as simply as I can. Leo, people (and it's clearly not just me) aren't angry at you because you 'stand up for LGBT people and Jews',* they're angry because you accuse almost everyone of being homophobic and/or anti-Semitic with little or no evidence. You have routinely accused openly gay Shipmates of supporting homophobia because they don't share your particular enthusiasm for an 'Inclusivity Sunday' (which, by the way, is still a terrible idea). You've also memorably alleged that Jews who don't share your view of what is anti-Semitic must be either self-hating and/or apostates. To put it bluntly, that's some chutzpah!
*Actually, that's partly a lie. I'm a little annoyed that you presume that 'LGBT people' need 'standing up for' and that you're in some sort of position to do so. LGBT people can speak for themselves. In fact, we're exceptionally good at it. It's a side effect of being a minority group with with a very high average level of education, something that is also true of Jews, come to think of it.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
being a minority group with with a very high average level of education, something that is also true of Jews, come to think of it.
Now there's a stereotype if every I saw one.
Gay men are so artisic too. Have a good dress sense, keep fit when str8 men go to seed....
Anyway, I am off to a conference all day tomorrow on The legacy of John Robinson, 50 years after Honest to God - looking forward to it.
Depends on how tired I'll be upon my return, how many phone messages and emails and whether there's anything new on here that is worth a response.
Meanwhile, Happy S. Matthew's Day.
[ 20. September 2013, 18:09: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
being a minority group with with a very high average level of education, something that is also true of Jews, come to think of it.
Now there's a stereotype if every I saw one.
Gay men are so artisic too. Have a good dress sense, keep fit when str8 men go to seed....
It's not a stereotype, it's backed up by numerous studies. The things you say are stereotypes (which happen to be true ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ).
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Depends on how tired I'll be upon my return, how many phone messages and emails and whether there's anything new on here that is worth a response.
.
Because I am so busy with such important things.
You'll will get used to Leo's little bluster, S Bacchus. Always just rushing in - or out - to highly interesting meetings. At intervals of watching particularly glum art films and reading - gracious, how he reads - scholarly tomes on theology. You must be content to wait your turn.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Unitarians, Quakers etc – I believe it’s all cool with them. Didn’t the first gay marriage in a religious building take place in a Unitarian church?! But let’s ignore them as they don’t fit your argument.
I have some on-again, off-again involvement with Unitarianism(mostly on-line these days), and, while there are groups within Unitarianism who identify as Christian, overall I would not call contemporary Unitarianism Christian.
Or at least not in North America. I think British Unitarianism is slightly more open to embracing the Christian label. The official title there is "Unitarian and Free Christian Churches", though I still don't think they mandate any creedal beliefs about Jesus, just promote his ethical teachings as exemplary.
I think you'll find that it's Quakers who don't mandate credal beliefs whereas Unitarians specifically reject the Trinity. This is why they are(were?) excluded from membership of most Churches Together-type organisations.
Historically, yes, Unitarians were defined by a christology that rejected the Trinity.
However, these days, there is no overall Unitarian Christology, since you have many Unitarians who are not Christian at all. For example, the UU Buddhist Fellowship. So the whole question of Trinity Vs. Unity of the Godhead is an irrelevancy.
And actally, at least one contemporary Unitarian Chhristian theologian has written favourably of trinitarianism, though he seems to re-work the concept a bit to better reflect modern concerns.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Depends on how tired I'll be upon my return, how many phone messages and emails and whether there's anything new on here that is worth a response.
.
Because I am so busy with such important things.
You'll will get used to Leo's little bluster, S Bacchus. Always just rushing in - or out - to highly interesting meetings. At intervals of watching particularly glum art films and reading - gracious, how he reads - scholarly tomes on theology. You must be content to wait your turn.
That's what I think I object to most. I can sense that leo is good sort really, but he isn't half vain. I don't mind vanity (God knows I'm prone to it myself), but other people aren't accessories with which to show off one's 'inclusive' credentials. And I do get the feeling that, for leo, things like LGBT rights and intefaith work are less about the issues themselves and more about constructing his own image. It's like that line from 'A Man for All Seasons':
quote:
What matters is not that it's true, but that I believe it; or no, not that I believe it , but that I believe it.
Which, as somebody pointed out, is pretty much the least catholic statement ever said (and would, therefore, have been utterly alien to the historical Thomas More).
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
Also, am I alone in finding it really annoying that leo will clearly put great detail into refuting certain points (often points that nobody has actually made on the thread, and which are thus strictly strawmen), but then ignore the majority of points made against his arguments, presumably because he can't think of a clever answer and will never admit that he was wrong?
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I would only differ from those who think that, if you cracked the shell of vanity, pomposity and general arm-waving huffery-puffery, you would find a decent person. I don't think you would find anything.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
leo, as someone who is occasionally disparaged as being part of the mythical "PC brigade" I am aware that my expressions of solidarity with peoples like gays, Jews and Blacks can be patronising and even prejudiced against them, in that I can see them to be "weak" and needing support from a white, heterosexual Christian. The desire for expressing solidarity and fight prejudice can come from a view that one is superior to those who are seen to need help. This doesn't mean that that desire is wrong in itself, rather our desire to help can be ambivalent and even perpetuate systems of domination (the "stronger" person being so kind as to help the "weak") and arises out of an unconscious need for praise, recognition or for the working through of ones own trauma.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Also, am I alone in finding it really annoying that leo will clearly put great detail into refuting certain points (often points that nobody has actually made on the thread, and which are thus strictly strawmen), but then ignore the majority of points made against his arguments, presumably because he can't think of a clever answer and will never admit that he was wrong?
No. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Join the lengthy queue.
Tubbs
[ 20. September 2013, 18:54: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Rosa wrote:
quote:
as someone who is occasionally disparaged as being part of the mythical "PC brigade" I am aware that my expressions of solidarity with peoples like gays, Jews and Blacks can be patronising and even prejudiced against them, in that I can see them to be "weak" and needing support from a white, heterosexual Christian.
Guess I'll just post this for a few laughs.
Not the most original point, and Tom Wolfe did it better. Still, that's more of a toe-tapper.
(Checked link. Is fine -T)
[ 20. September 2013, 19:36: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
You'll will get used to Leo's little bluster, S Bacchus. Always just rushing in - or out - to highly interesting meetings. At intervals of watching particularly glum art films and reading - gracious, how he reads - scholarly tomes on theology. You must be content to wait your turn.
At least he's no longer pirating huge passages from other people and passing them off as his own. So far as we know, at least.
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I would only differ from those who think that, if you cracked the shell of vanity, pomposity and general arm-waving huffery-puffery, you would find a decent person. I don't think you would find anything.
Zing.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
It's usually fundamentalists I hear described as glorying in all criticism, and concluding that they are persecuted; and persecuted because they are so righteous.
I went to see a play last night called The Book of Everything, adapted from a Dutch novel. It's set in Amsterdam 1951. The strict Calvinist father character, who terrorises his family and hits his wife, is capable of turning absolutely everything into a self-justification.
The director's notes on the play said that when he first read the script, a quote came to mind that there is nothing more scary than a person who believes they are right all the time.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Muslims were at a Pride here. in London
And so were Christians. You know, those horrible bigots you told LGBT folk to run away from in preference for other religions.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Muslims were at a Pride here. in London
And so were Christians. You know, those horrible bigots you told LGBT folk to run away from in preference for other religions.
I saw a little bit of this year's Pride march in London. I remember seeing some gay Christian groups and a Moslem group marching. Don't remember seeing any Buddhists though...
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
You'll will get used to Leo's little bluster, S Bacchus. Always just rushing in - or out - to highly interesting meetings. At intervals of watching particularly glum art films and reading - gracious, how he reads - scholarly tomes on theology. You must be content to wait your turn.
At least he's no longer pirating huge passages from other people and passing them off as his own. So far as we know, at least.
But he does quote lengthy passages of often dubious relevance, and sometimes he sounds like he's paraphrasing ideas that he's hear elsewhere but not 'inwardly digested' or examined critically (I'm pretty sure that was part of the basis of his bizarre attitude on the thread about 'My song is love unknown': some authority he trusted must have told him that the hymn was anti-Semitic, and he's incapable of letting go of that fact). As a teacher myself, I get that sort of thing fairly often from students, but I've always assumed it mostly had to do with the pressure to turn in work by a deadline. I don't get why anyone would post that way on an internet forum. Also, my students can almost always be made to take a second look at their opinions and analyse them critically (I regard it as my job to make them do so). Leo doesn't seem to do that, or at least not very often, which I find odd as he is also a teacher.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
being a minority group with with a very high average level of education, something that is also true of Jews, come to think of it.
Now there's a stereotype if every I saw one.
...
Can't find any collated figures from the 2011 census but according to the Institute for Jewish Policy Research the 2001 Census showed that in the UK
quote:
‘As a group, Jews showed high levels of educational attainment far outranking the national population and all other subgroups. But within the Jewish population there are groups who have not reached even the average Jewish levels of secular education.’
But possibly leo will explain that the IJPR is a front organisation for the worldwide Christian anti-semitic conspiracy.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
The thing about leo, bless him, is that he has a good heart, a martyr complex and an inability to distinguish between means and ends.
He starts well, long Christian history of anti-antisemitism, need for Christians to repent of past injustices, to be sensitive to historic anti-Semitic tropes. So far so good, nothing there that could be objected to to by anyone outwith the SSPX and the First Church of Jesus Christ, Aryan Nations. But then we move into how we deal with this, by banning My Song Is Love Unknown. When it is pointed out to him that the lyrics to My Song Is Love Unknown bear no resemblance to "All Hail The Blissful Martyr, St. Simon of Trent" or "Throw The Jew Down The Well" his response is "Oh Noes, I stand alone against the forces of Antisemitism".
No, we totally get the badness of antisemitism bit. We merely think that banning a hymn that only you think is antisemitic is not the way forward. Und So Weiter, rinse and repeat in different contexts. Which is a shame, really. It's the epistemological equivalent of Eric Morcambe's rendition of the Grieg Piano Concerto. All of the right notes but not necessarily in the right order.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[....
Anyway, I am off to a conference all day tomorrow on The legacy of John Robinson, 50 years after Honest to God ...
South Bank religion? You want to be careful about that, old boy: look at the people who were involved in it. Robinson/ Rubensohn, Montefiore (of course), Stockwood/ Stueckelbaum - apostate Jews to a man, inspired by hatred of their ancestral religion to create a deceptively liberal and inclusive Christianity under the cover of which the Church could the more effectively pursue, by stealth, its centuries-old anti-Semitic mission. It's all there in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Southwark.
But I expect you 'knew' all this already.
[ 21. September 2013, 13:25: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
It's not so much the tone of statements presented as 'fact' that irritate me, it's the merciless mauling you get when you say something he thinks is not correct. As an example, a year or two ago he was going on about CCJ (Council for Christians and Jews) and as a passing comment I relating my interactions (as someone who was trying to co-ordinate a city group in the UK) at the moment when the dialogue was being opened up to Islam and the debates initiated regarding the change of name to Council for Christians, Muslims and Jews. (see here ; the last point in 'recent activities'). He decided he was a major authority on the topic of CCJ and that I was talking out of my ass and gave me a mauling. At the time I gave up because it was like taking to a wall. Remarkably this wasn't the first time he embarrassed himself on something he actually knew precious little about, to the extent that he pm'ed me to keep giving out and in the end I had to point out he was talking about something very close to me.
I think there are times when he feel the need to look important and scholarly online. Maybe in real life he gets caught out on his bumbling attempts to look intelligent, so he tries repeatedly to do it here.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo on the Inclusive Church thread in Eccles:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
So Buddhism's good enough for them, but not for you? Or do you just not think that Christianity has any unique recommendation over Buddhism full stop? In which case, what are you doing representing it as a lay minister?
My spiritual director hat is worn for anyone who comes to be - I am not, and should not be, becauise it is unprofessional, be an advocate for any one church or religion.
Which is better - a toxic church or a different spiritual path where a person might flourish?
I'm sorry, leo, but there is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin. "Professional"? You're professionally qualified - by whom, and for what fee? - to give spiritual direction to people? In what capacity? Posing as a Christian minister? I mean, WTF? And don't give me bullshit dodges about dodgy Jesuits - that's nothing to the point, as I'm sure you must realise.
If you are all that you say you are, you may have an enormous influence over other people's - potentially very vulnerable people's - spiritual welfare. Sort yourself out before you risk fucking anyone else up. Seriously. This sort of thing isn't a game or a self-adequacy exercise. Please - think very carefully about what you're doing.
[ 21. September 2013, 22:43: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If I am in hell because of standing up for LGBT people and Jews...
You're not.
Believe me, you're not.
You're here because - however well-meaning you often are, and however much I agree with you on the Big Issues - you often act like a total prat.
Sorry.
Like I saw, I agree with you most of the time which makes it so infuriating that you turn people away from your position by being so damn sanctimonious the whole time. The idea that people might validly have different opinions to you - or might even be more expert in an area than you - just doesn't seem to enter into it.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If I am in hell because of standing up for LGBT people and Jews...
You're not.
Believe me, you're not.
You're here because - however well-meaning you often are, and however much I agree with you on the Big Issues - you often act like a total prat.
Sorry.
Like I saw, I agree with you most of the time which makes it so infuriating that you turn people away from your position by being so damn sanctimonious the whole time. The idea that people might validly have different opinions to you - or might even be more expert in an area than you - just doesn't seem to enter into it.
Leo is a typical teacher: full of wind and won't listen because he enjoys his own voice too much. To him we're all his pupils to receive his pedagogic pearls of wisdom.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
It's also an old-fashioned belief in teaching he's modelling here: that the students are empty vessels to be filled with the teacher's knowledge, not people to be enabled to access knowledge and understanding as the current OFSTED guidelines would suggest.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
To him we're all his pupils to receive his pedagogic pearls of wisdom.
That goes for everyone else in the world as well. Leo is the teacher and the other few billion of us are the pupils: expected to sit down, shut up, and regard every opinion that comes out of his mouth as if it was the very Word of God.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by leo on the Inclusive Church thread in Eccles:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I'd go as far as to advise LGBTs to stay away from all churches unless they have a very strong faith. Buddhism is far more attractive.
So Buddhism's good enough for them, but not for you? Or do you just not think that Christianity has any unique recommendation over Buddhism full stop? In which case, what are you doing representing it as a lay minister?
My spiritual director hat is worn for anyone who comes to be - I am not, and should not be, becauise it is unprofessional, be an advocate for any one church or religion.
Which is better - a toxic church or a different spiritual path where a person might flourish?
I'm sorry, leo, but there is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin. "Professional"? You're professionally qualified - by whom, and for what fee? - to give spiritual direction to people? In what capacity? Posing as a Christian minister? I mean, WTF? And don't give me bullshit dodges about dodgy Jesuits - that's nothing to the point, as I'm sure you must realise.
If you are all that you say you are, you may have an enormous influence over other people's - potentially very vulnerable people's - spiritual welfare. Sort yourself out before you risk fucking anyone else up. Seriously. This sort of thing isn't a game or a self-adequacy exercise. Please - think very carefully about what you're doing.
I often wonder what you are like in real life. You seem very threatened by ideas that are new to you and very dogmatic about what you consider to be the truth.
Why do you regard Jesuits as 'dodgy'? Do you not accept the authority of the current, Jesuit, Pope?
The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt - yet you know better as a recently converted RC. he wrote: quote:
: When I suggest that the director help them reconnect with their religious roots I am not implying that the director encourage them to go to church. So many gay men and women have suffered because of the homophobia of their church that there is little possibility of a reconnection here. In fact, it might be destructive for them to try to do so....[ because they have internalised church teaching] so many gay people carry in their very skin and tissues a kind of self-hatred, a shame of their sexual desires, and the kind of alienation from family, society and church which leads to alienation from God.
Spiritual Direction and the Gay Person - James Empereur, SJ
The qualifications for SD vary - in my case a two-year course.
I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech, in regarding any SD who charges a fee as being 'a charlatan'.
[ 22. September 2013, 17:06: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I am often noticing that leo supplies lengthy answers to questions that were never asked. He would make an excellent seal on the front benches of any parliamentary democracy.
Not mine, please.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Where in that quote does Fr. Empereur say he often tells LGBT people who come to him for spiritual direction to try Buddhism?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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