|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Peradventure there shall Leo be found there
|
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The answers were directly to Chesterbelloc above and to another of his in Eccles.
He seems to be obsessed with issues of authority (presumably because he hasn't internalised his yet and needs others to tell him what to think).
Well ISTM that you missed Chesterbelloc's point. It's one thing to avoid suggesting someone reconnects with a church which they find to be toxic, it's a very different thing to suggest, as you appear to be doing, that they connect with Buddhism instead, unless, perhaps, they are coming to you as an interfaith spiritual director.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
It's like a salesman who doesn't believe in his own product.
I suppose there could be some cunning reverse psychology involved: wow, this guy is HONEST! I can obviously believe him, he's sincere!
And then as the next step you've signed them up to donate to your personal side venture. Very clever.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt - yet you know better as a recently converted RC.
The qualifications for SD vary - in my case a two-year course.
I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech,
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
He seems to be obsessed with issues of authority (presumably because he hasn't internalised his yet and needs others to tell him what to think).
Projection, m'lud!
--------------------
-
-
Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's also an old-fashioned belief in teaching he's modelling here: that the students are empty vessels to be filled with the teacher's knowledge, not people to be enabled to access knowledge and understanding as the current OFSTED guidelines would suggest.
Paolo? Is that you?
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
You seem very threatened by ideas that are new to you and very dogmatic about what you consider to be the truth.
The irony! it burns! AUGHAUGHAUGH!
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt - yet you know better as a recently converted RC.
The qualifications for SD vary - in my case a two-year course.
I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech,
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
He seems to be obsessed with issues of authority (presumably because he hasn't internalised his yet and needs others to tell him what to think).
Projection, m'lud!
Exactly. And it's as ironic as the post mousethief notes, as leo is forever treating the rest of us as students at his feet in need of his authoritative instruction.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech, in regarding any SD who charges a fee as being 'a charlatan'.
Mmmmm I wonder what Ken Leech thinks of you especially your use of "guru?"
Ken Leech has always taken strenuous steps to avoid this kind of hero worship - sadly, in your case the spiritual direction hasn't worked, has it?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]
1. Why do you regard Jesuits as 'dodgy'? Do you not accept the authority of the current, Jesuit, Pope?
2. The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt -
1. Well, like other people, some of them are. It all depends on what they're writing about. Dodgy inherently? Nope.
2. We're not impressed by you parading your latest reading list, Leo.
3. Get out of role and off your high horse for once. Stop playing teacher and some people might actually listen. Goodness only knows what your sermons must be like but perhaps they resonate with the intelligentsia and the many PhD's (as you have told us before) in your church.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I'm surprised he didn't recommend Islam, as they also seem to be able to do no wrong in his eyes.
He seems to be able to see fault only in Christianity, I often wonder why he doesn't convert to a different religion?
He's a devout Marxist, and wouldn't convert to any religion that would accept him as an adherent.
--------------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's like a salesman who doesn't believe in his own product.
I suppose there could be some cunning reverse psychology involved: wow, this guy is HONEST! I can obviously believe him, he's sincere!
And then as the next step you've signed them up to donate to your personal side venture. Very clever.
SD is not about a product.
It is non-directive, a listening ministry which seeks to avoid asking leading questions or short-circuiting the directee coming to her own conclusions.
Spirituality as a product is something I associate with evangelical mega-churches.
[ 23. September 2013, 18:24: Message edited by: leo ]
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech, in regarding any SD who charges a fee as being 'a charlatan'.
Mmmmm I wonder what Ken Leech thinks of you especially your use of "guru?"
Ken Leech has always taken strenuous steps to avoid this kind of hero worship - sadly, in your case the spiritual direction hasn't worked, has it?
You are taking a word (guru) too literally. I have known Ken for many years and know exactly where he stands on that.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech, in regarding any SD who charges a fee as being 'a charlatan'.
Mmmmm I wonder what Ken Leech thinks of you especially your use of "guru?"
Ken Leech has always taken strenuous steps to avoid this kind of hero worship - sadly, in your case the spiritual direction hasn't worked, has it?
You are taking a word (guru) too literally. I have known Ken for many years and know exactly where he stands on that.
This may come as news to you leo, but you can't rely on your own understanding of a word, unless you want to be regarded as some kind of Humpty Dumpty.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The answers were directly to Chesterbelloc above and to another of his in Eccles.
He seems to be obsessed with issues of authority (presumably because he hasn't internalised his yet and needs others to tell him what to think).
Well ISTM that you missed Chesterbelloc's point. It's one thing to avoid suggesting someone reconnects with a church which they find to be toxic, it's a very different thing to suggest, as you appear to be doing, that they connect with Buddhism instead, unless, perhaps, they are coming to you as an interfaith spiritual director.
SDs don't 'suggest' - they might resource and they/we certainly work in an interfaith 'market.
I have dealt with quite a few who already go to Buddhist meditation sessions alongside or instead of church.
The original toxic thing in the Eccles. thread was in response to St. Bacchus's assertion that church wasn't toxic for gays. I later discovered that he's in his 20s. It certainly is the case that many churches other than conevo ones turn a blind eye to official church teaching but most people who seek SD are in the second half of life. For many, if not most of them, things were very different in their formative years and many still bear the scars.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]
1. Why do you regard Jesuits as 'dodgy'? Do you not accept the authority of the current, Jesuit, Pope?
2. The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt -
1. Well, like other people, some of them are. It all depends on what they're writing about. Dodgy inherently? Nope.
2. We're not impressed by you parading your latest reading list, Leo.
3. Get out of role and off your high horse for once. Stop playing teacher and some people might actually listen. Goodness only knows what your sermons must be like but perhaps they resonate with the intelligentsia and the many PhD's (as you have told us before) in your church.
You can read many of them in my two blogs and decide for yourself. The fact that they are mostly preached in a university chaplaincy church doesn't mean that they have to be academic papers. Indeed, preaching is not the same as delivering a paper.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Plique-à-jour:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The issue of toxic church is endorsed by the Jesuit with a doctorate and many highly regarded university and cathedral posts under his belt - yet you know better as a recently converted RC.
The qualifications for SD vary - in my case a two-year course.
I am with my guru, Fr. Ken Leech,
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
He seems to be obsessed with issues of authority (presumably because he hasn't internalised his yet and needs others to tell him what to think).
Projection, m'lud!
Of course, projection works both ways. Every time Chesterbelloc weighs into Hell 'against' me, on four separate occasions, regardless of the topic, he has the same concern, that i am somehow damaging vulnerable people. Apart from that being unfounded, I might wonder what projection is going on from him, what his vulnerabilities are etc.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It's not so much the tone of statements presented as 'fact' that irritate me, it's the merciless mauling you get when you say something he thinks is not correct. As an example, a year or two ago he was going on about CCJ (Council for Christians and Jews) and as a passing comment I relating my interactions (as someone who was trying to co-ordinate a city group in the UK) at the moment when the dialogue was being opened up to Islam and the debates initiated regarding the change of name to Council for Christians, Muslims and Jews. (see here ; the last point in 'recent activities').
The link you provided is not about CCJ. it is about ICCJ - in my opinion a far more exciting and dynamic organisation, but not CCJ.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's also an old-fashioned belief in teaching he's modelling here: that the students are empty vessels to be filled with the teacher's knowledge, not people to be enabled to access knowledge and understanding as the current OFSTED guidelines would suggest.
If that were true, then i would have been unable to teach secondary. Level 4 (average 11yo) tends to be about 'facts'. Anything beyond that - up to Level 8 and EP required pupils/students to think for themselves and evaluate.
If you look back on any education discussions on The Ship. people like Marvyn the Martian accused me of NOT being interested enough in facts.
Sadly, Michael Gove is seeking to return to facts - anyone who has read my posts where he is concerned knows that I hate that man with a vengeance (and feel slightly guilty about 'hating' anyone!)
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Of course, projection works both ways. Every time Chesterbelloc weighs into Hell 'against' me, on four separate occasions, regardless of the topic, he has the same concern, that i am somehow damaging vulnerable people. Apart from that being unfounded, I might wonder what projection is going on from him, what his vulnerabilities are etc.
I suspect you didn't intend how you're making yourself sound with this paragraph. Putting aside your not quite getting the concept of projection, your reaction to his concerns here leads me to share them.
[ 23. September 2013, 20:14: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
--------------------
-
-
Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's like a salesman who doesn't believe in his own product.
I suppose there could be some cunning reverse psychology involved: wow, this guy is HONEST! I can obviously believe him, he's sincere!
And then as the next step you've signed them up to donate to your personal side venture. Very clever.
SD is not about a product.
It is non-directive, a listening ministry which seeks to avoid asking leading questions or short-circuiting the directee coming to her own conclusions.
Spirituality as a product is something I associate with evangelical mega-churches.
If it's non-directive, I suggest you stop directing people to avoid the church and be Buddhist.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
|
Posted
Spiritual direction is non-directive? That makes sense.
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
posted by Leo:
quote:
....non-directive, a listening ministry which seeks to avoid asking leading questions or short-circuiting the directee coming to her own conclusions....
You're quoting this from 'A Ruach Journey' I presume? At least you have learnt from past mistakes in quoting verbatim.
quote:
I have dealt with quite a few who already go to Buddhist meditation sessions alongside or instead of church.
...and they haven't discovered yet what the majority opinion among Buddhists is in regard to homosexuality; let alone the place of women?
quote:
The link you provided is not about CCJ. it is about ICCJ - in my opinion a far more exciting and dynamic organisation, but not CCJ.
ICCJ is the umbrella organisation, you twit; of which CCJ is a member. Yet again you demonstrate your ignorance.
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
You're quoting this from 'A Ruach Journey' I presume?
...and they haven't discovered yet what the majority opinion among Buddhists is in regard to homosexuality; let alone the place of women?
ICCJ is the umbrella organisation, you twit; of which CCJ is a member. Yet again you demonstrate your ignorance.
Never heard of ruach... so not quoting it. Could, of course, be that we are both quoting the concensus view.
FWBO is pro-LGBT and pro-women - 'The majority' of Buddhists may be homophobic, just as the majority of Christians are homophobic.
The ref. to ICCJ was about some link you'd posted i which you said something about its policy. CCj may be affiliated but its own policies come from its own executive and constitution. On the issue that you were going on about, CCJ does not agree with ICCJ
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
Spiritual direction is non-directive? That makes sense.
Most SDs dislike the word 'direction' (its origins being from a different age before modern psychological understandings) and prefer 'spiritual companion', 'guide', 'soul friend.'
The move back to direction in evangelical circles is 'mentoring' and 'coaching', which many of us think is damaging.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
I'm late to the party. But from the last ten posts or so it looks like:
leo 1000
the rest of you losers 0
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's like a salesman who doesn't believe in his own product.
I suppose there could be some cunning reverse psychology involved: wow, this guy is HONEST! I can obviously believe him, he's sincere!
And then as the next step you've signed them up to donate to your personal side venture. Very clever.
SD is not about a product.
It is non-directive, a listening ministry which seeks to avoid asking leading questions or short-circuiting the directee coming to her own conclusions.
Spirituality as a product is something I associate with evangelical mega-churches.
If it's non-directive, I suggest you stop directing people to avoid the church and be Buddhist.
That's like encouraging an abused wife to stay in her marriage.
Plus it IS non-directive but SDs are also resource persons who can point directees to consider directions/paths they previously hadn't considered.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
If it's non-directive, I suggest you stop directing people to avoid the church and be Buddhist.
That's like encouraging an abused wife to stay in her marriage.
Someone counselling an abused wife might say 'you should leave your husband'. But I doubt they'd then say 'you should then shack up with Mr Dharma down the road.'
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Who is also known to beat his female companions from time to time. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Of course, projection works both ways. Every time Chesterbelloc weighs into Hell 'against' me, on four separate occasions, regardless of the topic, he has the same concern, that i am somehow damaging vulnerable people. Apart from that being unfounded, I might wonder what projection is going on from him, what his vulnerabilities are etc.
leo. Chesterbelloc is secretly, painfully and desperately in love with you. Haven't you figured that out yet?
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Of course, projection works both ways. Every time Chesterbelloc weighs into Hell 'against' me, on four separate occasions, regardless of the topic, he has the same concern, that i am somehow damaging vulnerable people. Apart from that being unfounded, I might wonder what projection is going on from him, what his vulnerabilities are etc.
leo. Chesterbelloc is secretly, painfully and desperately in love with you. Haven't you figured that out yet?
LOL - bit too immature, dogmatic and right-wing for me. His avatar is quite repellent too.
I think you're more my type bit distance relationships are hard to sustain. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 24. September 2013, 13:45: Message edited by: leo ]
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Of course, projection works both ways.
Not really, Leo.
Transference can work both ways, with transference and counter transference causing all sorts of complications.
Projection is a one way street.
It is possible for more than one person can engage in projection at one time, and for each to project his or her own inadequacies onto the other, but this does not make it a two way street.
Imo, to be a good spiritual director to anyone, it is very important to be aware of one's own inadequacies, one's own issues first, and to be particularly careful not to project them away. A good SD needs to be aware of, and own his or her own problems.
A professional (by which I mean competent) response to comments about shortcomings would be to consider how valid they might be. A less satisfactory response is to say you are not perfect either.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Why is projection a one-way street? I would say that two people always make unconscious projections on each other. Normally, it's not a problem, and can in fact facilitate intimacy.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Why is projection a one-way street? I would say that two people always make unconscious projections on each other. Normally, it's not a problem, and can in fact facilitate intimacy.
I am not sure what you are describing, but it is not projection, imo.
Projection involves my putting that which is inadequate within me onto you, and despising you for it. It is about problems with the self, and it is not done consciously.
It is also not a normal feature of relationships; we do not all go around projecting on one another all the time. It is a highly dysfunctional behaviour, and it does not facilitate intimacy, it is always abusive.
It is possible for more than one person to engage in this behaviour at once, but each person is responding to what is within themselves. It is nothing to do with the other person at all; they are very much a blank or unknown, upon which the failings are projected. Intimacy calls for a certain mutual knowledge of the other. Projection does not allow for intimacy at all.
Transference is to do with the other person, and it can bounce back and forth; it is far more complex. When you get an interplay of complicated mixing of relationships, it is far more likely to be transference than simply projection.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Imo, to be a good spiritual director to anyone, it is very important to be aware of one's own inadequacies, one's own issues first, and to be particularly careful not to project them away. A good SD needs to be aware of, and own his or her own problems.
Totally agree, which is why SDs have to be in direction, should have done a 40 day retreat and, ideally, psychotherapy.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm late to the party. But from the last ten posts or so it looks like:
leo 1000
the rest of you losers 0
Now that we've talled the word count, how about a score for post quality?
--------------------
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
I'm surprised he didn't recommend Islam, as they also seem to be able to do no wrong in his eyes.
He seems to be able to see fault only in Christianity, I often wonder why he doesn't convert to a different religion?
He's a devout Marxist, and wouldn't convert to any religion that would accept him as an adherent.
And the church may be a wonderful institution, but who wants to live in an institution? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm late to the party. But from the last ten posts or so it looks like:
leo 1000
the rest of you losers 0
Oh, look, Evensong is sticking up for the underdog without really understanding what's going on. Must be a day ending in Y. No homework tonight then?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
SDs have to be in direction, should have done a 40 day retreat and, ideally, psychotherapy.
The last two are quite difficult to achieve in practice, for people with busy lives and/or family responsibilities, not to mention lack of funds. It would rule out me and most of my colleagues in our SD team.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Why is projection a one-way street? I would say that two people always make unconscious projections on each other. Normally, it's not a problem, and can in fact facilitate intimacy.
I am not sure what you are describing, but it is not projection, imo.
Projection involves my putting that which is inadequate within me onto you, and despising you for it. It is about problems with the self, and it is not done consciously.
It is also not a normal feature of relationships; we do not all go around projecting on one another all the time. It is a highly dysfunctional behaviour, and it does not facilitate intimacy, it is always abusive.
It is possible for more than one person to engage in this behaviour at once, but each person is responding to what is within themselves. It is nothing to do with the other person at all; they are very much a blank or unknown, upon which the failings are projected. Intimacy calls for a certain mutual knowledge of the other. Projection does not allow for intimacy at all.
Transference is to do with the other person, and it can bounce back and forth; it is far more complex. When you get an interplay of complicated mixing of relationships, it is far more likely to be transference than simply projection.
Well, we are obviously using the term in different ways. I was trained in psychoanalytic therapy, and the term 'projection' is also used of positive things, which leads to idealization. Hence, falling in love often involves huge amounts of mutual projection, which is actually very beneficial. Eventually, these projections fade, and then the real challenges begin. Basically, the stuff which you admire in others, can be withdrawn, and owned by oneself.
Of course, in therapy, some clients make massive idealizations of their therapists, and others make massive negative projections.
However, we are going o/t.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
FWBO is pro-LGBT and pro-women - 'The majority' of Buddhists may be homophobic, just as the majority of Christians are homophobic.
In other words, your suggestion to avoid the church and try Buddhism is poorly thought out.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
No homework tonight then?
Lots. But I"m tired of being a good girl. I figured my gargantuan halo needed a bit of tarnishing so I headed for the ship.
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
[QUOTE]I"m tired of being a good girl.
Were you ever? Now that must have been interesting: perfection!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I'm late to the party. But from the last ten posts or so it looks like:
leo 1000
the rest of you losers 0
Oh, look, Evensong is sticking up for the underdog without really understanding what's going on. Must be a day ending in Y. No homework tonight then?
There ought to be a version of Godwin's Law about it, but I can't work out which way it should be formulated:
"As the number of posts Evensong makes in support of someone in Hell increases, the probability of that person being a tedious waste of space, entirely deserving of a Hell call approaches 1"
or
"As a Hell call grows longer, the probability of Evensong turning up to provide clueless misguided cheerleading for whoever she perceives as the underdog approaches 1"
As far as I can see, both are valid. Maybe in the interests of the Hellhosts' sanity, we could adopt and adapt the old Usenet tradition, and say that whenever Evensong posts in support of someone in Hell, the thread is instantly over, and that person loses the argument.
--------------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's like a salesman who doesn't believe in his own product.
I suppose there could be some cunning reverse psychology involved: wow, this guy is HONEST! I can obviously believe him, he's sincere!
And then as the next step you've signed them up to donate to your personal side venture. Very clever.
SD is not about a product.
It is non-directive, a listening ministry which seeks to avoid asking leading questions or short-circuiting the directee coming to her own conclusions.
Spirituality as a product is something I associate with evangelical mega-churches.
If it's non-directive, I suggest you stop directing people to avoid the church and be Buddhist.
That's like encouraging an abused wife to stay in her marriage.
In your analogy, I assume the abusive husband is the homophobic church you refer to. But where is Jesus, the person, in your analogy?
Jesus is the woman's home and it is her abusive husband who should be evicted and placed under a restraining order.
--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Maybe in the interests of the Hellhosts' sanity, we could adopt and adapt the old Usenet tradition, and say that whenever Evensong posts in support of someone in Hell, the thread is instantly over, and that person loses the argument.
That's a brilliant idea! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
[QUOTE]I"m tired of being a good girl.
Were you ever? Now that must have been interesting: perfection!
Perfection thy name is Evensong?
I'm up with that. Seems legit.
[ 25. September 2013, 14:34: Message edited by: Evensong ]
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
In your analogy, I assume the abusive husband is the homophobic church you refer to. But where is Jesus, the person, in your analogy?
Jesus is the woman's home and it is her abusive husband who should be evicted and placed under a restraining order.
Yes but if the husband is squatting in the marital home and refusing eviction, it is only sensible to provide a safe refuge for the abused wife.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
SDs have to be in direction, should have done a 40 day retreat and, ideally, psychotherapy.
The last two are quite difficult to achieve in practice, for people with busy lives and/or family responsibilities, not to mention lack of funds. It would rule out me and most of my colleagues in our SD team.
To put the record straight, different SD courses have different entrance requirements but I suspect all are flexible and are more concerned with the life experience and maturity of the applicant than with rules.
Our course accepted, as a substitute for the big 40 days, a 9 day Ignatian retreat topped up by a 19th Annotation Retreat done at home, in the midst of ordinary life, over 30 days with a director. (You get a day off! - and it costs less.)
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
On past experience, the time will soon come before this thread descends into various people slagging each other off without any reference to the OP.
Before it does, I note that the two people who seek to rubbish all that I stand for, S. Bacchus and Chesterbelloc, seem to have been too cowardly to respond to my refutations of what they say. They probably haven't even read them because they may have moved on to rubbish someone else.
[ 25. September 2013, 18:28: Message edited by: leo ]
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
