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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: On having one's looks commented on
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Most women look sexually attractive to men. At least when in their teens and twenties.
My that's cutting it close. Gweneth and Angelina can't turn Ken's head anymore, I guess.
Kelly Alves I love your post/essay so much! You should take that and the rest of this thread and start a book on the subject.
I've experienced so many of Kelly's examples in various ways.
The blonde thing: When I was young I had a dozen men tell me variations of, "Wow you're gorgeous, if you were blonde you'd be a ten." I worked with a man who said that to me and the most interesting part to me, is that he was African-American. The irony of his prejudice based on pigment was lost to him.
Feeling free to comment: I worked in the drive through window of a bank for a few years and people seemed to think I was on TV or something. They would tell me they liked my hair better the other way or my lipstick was too red. Men would tell me they had brought their friend with them so he could look at me. One parked his car and came inside to tell me, and everyone else in the lobby, that I was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen. My mates all laughed.
The random judgements: I used to hear the total disbelief that I truly could not sing, over and over, and now that I'm old and fat everyone thinks I must be a good cook.
I once sat in the back of a college class, so bored that I cut a pair of glasses out of a piece of paper and put them on, hoping to make someone laugh. I overheard a guy tell the one next to him, "Yeah, she puts out."
Beauty is such a huge thing in our culture that we don't even know the half of it. When I was young I could turn the pretty off just by taking out my contacts and putting on my thick glasses. I could go back to the same store where the (women) clerks had been fawning over me earlier and not be able to get waited on at all.
I saw an example once of children assessing two young women who had come in without a word, sat down, and read them a story. The prettier one had been, "nicer" "smarter" and "kinder" than the other.
It's definitely not all about sex. I was disappointed when Lady Adelaid was no longer a regular on "Lark Rise to Candleford," because I just liked looking at her every week.
As to the title question: I met an old friend (in every sense, she's 73) for lunch the other day and we spent the first five minutes raving about each other's beautiful hair, her pretty, new coat, stunning earrings, etc, while our husbands stood in the cold laughing at us. Thinking about it now, it was just us expressing our mutual affection, but how odd that we had to say it like that.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And indeed I think in most cases it's not a big deal to comment on someone's looks (I would quickly add, based on the kind of things small girl children hear on a daily basis, one should quickly add comments that one is interested in their personality, accomplishments, and thoughts as well. Just do it.)
<lots of good stuff I cut>
*(For Instance, my tack with little girls who are showing off their dresses to me is saying stuff like "Wow you are wearing purple everything today! You must love purple! and that's a twirly skirt, I always love a twirly skirt, they're so much fun!" So, you see, less about the wardrobe itself and more about the interesting person who chose it.)
Really like this, because I sometimes do worry about the way we teach little girls what matters. Also because you make me realize that because of my own prejudices I have probably said just the right thing to counteract some of this crap in my daughter's head. Her brother is 19 months now and classically cute in the way that babies are supposed to be. Between that and being a flirt he gets a million more compliments about his looks than his quiet five year old big sister. I didn't want her to be jealous, so I told her that it wasn't that she's not cute, it's that people can think of so many more interesting things to say to her. We can compliment her on being funny, a good reader, discuss her enjoyment of science, or her organization abilities etc. Baby brother may be organized, but he hasn't got a chance of showing it yet, so we just call him cute. I realize now that the subtext was that comments about looks are shallow and unimportant. Whether or not this is true is up for debate, but it is the perfect thing to tell someone who gets told by society too much that looks matter!
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!"
I've heard that when in the US as well. Can't say I ever had a problem with it - in fact it meant there was something about me that people instinctively (and obviously) liked, which for a socially insecure bugger like me is a good position to be in.
I never quite had the heart to tell any of them that the Brummie accent is widely considered to be one of the least loved in Britain.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I still think there is something problematic and shallow with judging other people on their looks and with dressing to impress someone else by the way we look. We all do it, I just am not sure that we should.
And I third the motion that TAL rocks. I may have even been subconsciously thinking about that piece when I first read this thread..
It's interesting, when I think about it, I got used to looking at it the other way round, working as a therapist. I mean that when people come in looking uncared for, it often means they feel like that. By 'looking uncared for' I mean unkempt, unwashed, dishevelled.
And if they start feeling better, they often start to look differently, as if their self-presentation is changing. I suppose they are now caring for themselves. I don't mean expensive designer clothes and £200 hair-cuts.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Ken - assuming that all men are straight or even sexual is just part of heteronormativity. Treating heterosexuality as the default is what annoys people.
And asexual men do exist!
Yes, but the behaviour we're talking about here is that of the vast majority. If we were never allowed to talk about something that applies to most people without going through the motions of nodding to every single person it doesn't apply to, we'd never say or do anything.
You probably have some trillions of human ancestors. Not one of them was an asexual male.
But that's the point - heterosexuality is not the default. It's not about 'not being allowed' because that's just PC Gorn Mad bullshit. Of course you're (general you) allowed to assume everyone is heterosexual, it just makes you a shitty human being. Heterosexism is a real problem because it erases those of us who aren't - it's the equivalent of using 'man' to mean 'people'.
Actually it's quite probable that one of my human ancestors was an asexual male (or an asexual of any gender). Asexuality does not mean not reproducing, lots of asexual people have children. They just have no desire to have sex, but do often have sex in order to have kids, or to please their partners, or for various other reasons.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Whilst at the gym earlier (winning the intermediate level on the black bike race thing. Oh yes), I noticed that another user had a large swastika tattoo on his leg.
I wanted to ignore it and not mention it, or the owner of it, to my wife. I couldn't help judging the owner.
That's really weird, I used to have a Nazi client, with tattoos like that, and apparently he had a photo of Hitler on his fridge. Of course, as you might expect, he was a woefully inadequate and pathetic guy. The tats used to make me feel ill.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
...heterosexuality is not the default.
Of course it is the default. How could anyone think it wasn't?
Or do you have some novel idea of what the word "default" means?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!"
I had this experience in Canada. So many people had never met an English person before, and they were always commenting on how they loved my accent. I think, as you say, it was spontaneous (although, equally, I'm sure if they'd hated my accent they'd have kept it to themselves, so they must have thought their comments would be welcome). I didn't mind it at first, because I realised I was a novelty to them, and it was quite nice for people to be liking my accent, but after a while, it got annoying (I was there for several years, after all) and there were often cases where people were focusing far more on my accent than what I was saying. This would be especially annoying when I was saying something serious.
There are similarities to being told one is pretty on Facebook, although that makes it sound like people are telling me I'm pretty all the time, which is really not the case! It doesn't happen very much at all, and it doesn't seem like a spontaneous thing. It seems a deliberate thing, where some men maybe think they are being wonderfully noble by complimenting a woman's looks, and so it feels a bit artificial. If I was drop-dead-gorgeous, I guess maybe it would be more of a spontaneous thing. And maybe, if, like Boogie, I was used to experiencing it all the time, it wouldn't even occur to me to find it odd or irrelevant - it would just seem normal, and my looks would probably be part of my identity. But they are not, and so the whole idea of being defined by one's looks seems so strange to me.
Now I think of it, I'm far more comfortable with children spontaneously describing something about my looks that they have noticed - I remember working with an autistic child who said to me 'You have big teeth'. Which is true, I do, and I was quite happy for him to notice and say something. But then I wouldn't expect a neurotypical adult to say such a thing, and would think it irrelevant, just as a 'You're pretty' comment seems irrelevant.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!"
I've heard that when in the US as well. Can't say I ever had a problem with it - in fact it meant there was something about me that people instinctively (and obviously) liked, which for a socially insecure bugger like me is a good position to be in.
Did you resist the temptation to reply 'Of course, if you people had been a little more patient a couple of centuries ago, you could have heard lovely accents like mine* all the time, from the people who'd be running your country!'
*Well, given where you come from, not accents quite like yours. But they wouldn't know that.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If I see an elderly lady rocking a bright colour; a royal purple coat, or bright red shoes, or anything in fuschia or electric blue I do tend to say "I love that colour! It looks really good on you!" and I always get a good response. But I wouldn't comment on the appearance of anyone I didn't know under the age of about 70.
In less than a month I will celebrate my eightieth birthday. It bothers me that you would be willing to tell me that you like the color I am wearing, but would hesitate to say this to a younger woman. Am I that different?
Yes.
I think that the issue is that comments by a man about a woman's personal appearance can easily be interpreted as predatory. The more attractive the woman is the more likely it is that this will happen.
The situation changes completely once there is some circumstance that takes the threat of sexual interest or aggression out of the picture, such as a disparity in age. Then a compliment is just a compliment, an appropriate and polite thing to say, an honest noticing of something nice.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course it is the default. How could anyone think it wasn't?
Or do you have some novel idea of what the word "default" means?
Seems to me there are two possible meanings here:
1. That most people are heterosexual
2. That people, individualy, are 'by default' heterosexual.
Either way, I'm not sure that it really helps to imagine people are one thing when a significant proportion clearly are not.
Agreed. I think the point Jade Constable was making was pretty clear, regardless of how you interpret the word 'default'. Default is a computer term anyway, so its meaning when transferred to people's sexualities isn't going to be an exact analogy.
In my experience, when people talk about people seeing heterosexuality as the default, they mean that people assume everyone is heterosexual unless they are specifically informed otherwise. Or that heterosexuality is the fundamentally 'correct/normal' way to be and everything else is just an aberration. Neither of which is a helpful assumption to make.
And yes, as JC said, it's quite possible to have asexual ancestors. And gay ancestors.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
As someone who has been told that I've a good face for radio, I've always found this an interesting topic.
I try to compliment others when I can as I don't want them to go through the same stuff I went through when people laughed at me on the basis of my so called "looks." I' glad I have a partner and family who value the EM they see not for what he/she looks like but for what's inside.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Also because you make me realize that because of my own prejudices I have probably said just the right thing to counteract some of this crap in my daughter's head. Her brother is 19 months now and classically cute in the way that babies are supposed to be. Between that and being a flirt he gets a million more compliments about his looks than his quiet five year old big sister. I didn't want her to be jealous, so I told her that it wasn't that she's not cute, it's that people can think of so many more interesting things to say to her. We can compliment her on being funny, a good reader, discuss her enjoyment of science, or her organization abilities etc.
I actually got tears in my eyes when I read this. I wish I had an adult in close proximity like you in my life when I was a kid.
Because yes, I guarantee it, one small moment like that will make a huge difference.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Where is the line between appreciating human beauty and objectifying someone?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Where is the line between appreciating human beauty and objectifying someone?
Not so much a line as a series of lines, like a fortress with walls within walls
But one of the walls you ought not to cross is making rude comments that the person hears.
And another you ought not to cross without an invitation is making any personal comments at all to strangers you pass in the street.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Beauty is such a huge thing in our culture that we don't even know the half of it. When I was young I could turn the pretty off just by taking out my contacts and putting on my thick glasses. I could go back to the same store where the (women) clerks had been fawning over me earlier and not be able to get waited on at all.
First of all, I need to share- the first time I saw a picture of Twilight I gasped, "She's a fucking hottie!" so I am happy to confirm that she does indeed know what she is talking about when she discusses the occasionally strangeness of being on the traditionally pretty end of things.
Second, in response to your "thick glasses "anecdote-- head scarf. Brings out weird responses in folk. SOme people will be overly cautious and friendly to me, I guess because they think it is a religious observance of some sort, some people will look like they resent me having drawn their gaze.
But most people don't seem to care either way. It s the extreme stuff we notice, right?
[qb][quote]I saw an example once of children assessing two young women who had come in without a word, sat down, and read them a story. The prettier one had been, "nicer" "smarter" and "kinder" than the other.
This is where shit gets unfunny. We do connect physical appearance with virtue in unwarrented ways. it does damage-- both to the perfectly nice woman who who's kindness is unnoticed by children because she is not pretty enough to earn such notice, and to the "Angel on earth" who can't be a human being for ten seconds without cruelly disappointing someone.
Back to your shop girls anecdote--and it's hard to know what to do when that situation occurs. You can stand and wait politely, eating up your personal time or running the risk of not being helped at all, or you can speak up and make it known you were waiting, thus giving the shop folk validation that you are indeed unpleasant on the insides as well as out, and also validating their rude treatment of you. ("I knew she'd be a problem the minute she walked in!")
Having said that, I also wonder if a large part of the problem is how much a person agrees with what is being projected on them.
quote:
As to the title question: I met an old friend (in every sense, she's 73) for lunch the other day and we spent the first five minutes raving about each other's beautiful hair, her pretty, new coat, stunning earrings, etc, while our husbands stood in the cold laughing at us. Thinking about it now, it was just us expressing our mutual affection, but how odd that we had to say it like that.
Heh. This put me in mind of a recent visit to my cousin (same age as me). Both of us have tomboy inclinations. When we met we went through some gruff exchange of commentary on the smartness of each other's outfits, but almost right away the conversation went from that to-- memories. News of each other's lives. Smartass remarks. And then my cousin turned to her youngest daughter and launched into this description of how much fun we had hanging out together when we were kids that made my heart melt. Achieving pretty's nice, but nothing beats being thoroughly seen like that.
And I can't find it, but someone up there (a guy, I believe) said they hesitated to express appreciation of a woman as it usually signals sexual pursuit. No it doesn't! It's an opinion. everyone is entitled to their opinion. The conflict comes when one expresses and expects some one else to validate it. Once you have said it, let it go.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I still think there is something problematic and shallow with judging other people on their looks and with dressing to impress someone else by the way we look. We all do it, I just am not sure that we should.
And I third the motion that TAL rocks. I may have even been subconsciously thinking about that piece when I first read this thread..
It's interesting, when I think about it, I got used to looking at it the other way round, working as a therapist. I mean that when people come in looking uncared for, it often means they feel like that. By 'looking uncared for' I mean unkempt, unwashed, dishevelled.
And if they start feeling better, they often start to look differently, as if their self-presentation is changing. I suppose they are now caring for themselves. I don't mean expensive designer clothes and £200 hair-cuts.
You may be able to see certain things about a person's frame of mind by the way they dress, but how much can you tell about their character?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Did you resist the temptation to reply 'Of course, if you people had been a little more patient a couple of centuries ago, you could have heard lovely accents like mine* all the time, from the people who'd be running your country!'
I think you might be making a mistake if you assume that when Americans compliment your accent they are implying that they despise their own.
I've told many an English person that I liked their accent, as well as Australians and Canadians, but I also think my president's accent is very pleasant as well as many other Americans' accents including the Texas twang and the southern drawl of women like Rosalyn Carter and Barbara Bush.
[ 17. January 2014, 19:39: Message edited by: Twilight ]
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) When I got to England, A couple of people told me I have a cute accent. I was dumbfounded, because I (like many) thought that everyone hated American accents. I started milking it after that.
[ 17. January 2014, 19:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
I just wanted to bring another NPR body-image moment to the table:
Chris Christie and Pulling the Red Handle
quote:
I remember once hearing many years ago that one of my friends had told someone he was concerned that he sometimes made fat jokes about other people in front of me. He was worried that it hurt my feelings. (Which it did.) His explanation had been, "I don't think of her as a fat person." And my answer to the intermediary from whom I heard this story was, "Well, he should. Because I am."
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Where is the line between appreciating human beauty and objectifying someone?
Not so much a line as a series of lines, like a fortress with walls within walls
But one of the walls you ought not to cross is making rude comments that the person hears.
Without question. People who do that deliberately are just spiritually bankrupt.
quote:
And another you ought not to cross without an invitation is making any personal comments at all to strangers you pass in the street.
I dunno, I kind of like the idea of people being chummy to each other on the street. I am kind of shyly experimenting with being that way myself. For one thing, it can help dissolve the idea that any unsolicited comment is meant to be predatory-- if random cheery conversation is happening all the time, people will cease to be surprised by random cheery conversation.
The thing is, if I am going to be resolved to be that way, I need to reconcile myself with the idea that not everyone is that way, and not kick myself when I don't get the response I was expecting.
[ 17. January 2014, 20:11: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's interesting, when I think about it, I got used to looking at it the other way round, working as a therapist. I mean that when people come in looking uncared for, it often means they feel like that. By 'looking uncared for' I mean unkempt, unwashed, dishevelled.
I think this can be the case. I suppose, though, the people who are coming for therapy are going to have problems of some kind that they are seeking help for. And equally there may be plenty of people who look unkempt/unwashed/dishevelled who you didn't see, because they are happy and so didn't seek therapy.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Beauty is such a huge thing in our culture that we don't even know the half of it. When I was young I could turn the pretty off just by taking out my contacts and putting on my thick glasses. I could go back to the same store where the (women) clerks had been fawning over me earlier and not be able to get waited on at all.
This is something I've definitely noticed, being a wearer of thick glasses myself. I wore contacts for a while, but not always. I remember going to salsa classes with a friend, wearing baggy clothes and my glasses, and the instructor (a guy) would totally ignore me each week. Then one week I happened to be wearing my contacts, and tight red top, and suddenly the instructor was chatting to me, smiling at me, flirting and wanting to dance with me to show me how to do the moves.
Something similar happened when I went to pilates classes, although this was with a female instructor. When I wore tight gym clothes and my contacts, the instructor was chatting away to me, being really friendly and giving me tips about pilates. The next time I came, I wore baggy gym clothes and my glasses, and she didn't say anything to me. When I approached her at the end to ask about something she'd said the week before, she didn't even recognise me and didn't seem to want to talk. I guess it's not just a sexual thing (well, unless she was a lesbian, but it didn't seem to be that sort of interest) - just that if you look a certain way, you are judged to be a certain kind of person. Someone 'cool' maybe, that one wants to talk to. I find it so bizarre, as I'm always the same person, no matter what I wear (and what I wear really has nothing to do with my mood or state of mind either).
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oooh, been there.
Most painfully, I had a very good friend of mine basically pretend he didn't see me once-- we hadn't seen each other in a couple years, and i had gained about 40 pounds in the interim. I saw him at a theater after the lights went up, and shouted to him in the cheery, enthusiastic way I had always greeted him. He didn't answer. I got closer, called again, he still didn't look. I climbed the stairs toward him and shouted, and his friend poked him to point at me. My friend shook his head vigorously and turned the other way.
So, first impressions are one thing, but when you have gotten to know someone, when you have established rapport with them, when they have gotten a chance to get to know you, and they abandon the good things they know about you in reaction to some outward change? That's asshole behavior, right there. And thankfully I know few people who would be like at.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Kelly Alves wrote:
You may be able to see certain things about a person's frame of mind by the way they dress, but how much can you tell about their character?
Now that question made me think. I don't think it's just how people dress; it's their total self-presentation, which includes clothes, but also the ways in which they move, speak, sit, and everything really.
I think you can tell quite a lot, especially if you just become silent internally, and allow their persona to sort of fill you up. Well, it's a kind of self-effacement, to allow them to take you over (temporarily!).
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not). Now I'm beginning to wish I hadn't quit, it's so interesting.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
In my experience, when people talk about people seeing heterosexuality as the default, they mean that people assume everyone is heterosexual unless they are specifically informed otherwise. Or that heterosexuality is the fundamentally 'correct/normal' way to be and everything else is just an aberration. Neither of which is a helpful assumption to make.
And yes, as JC said, it's quite possible to have asexual ancestors. And gay ancestors.
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
No one should assume a default for anyone else.
..............
We all see others through the lens of our own experience, this leads a more skewed view than most will admit.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
In a statistical sense, homosexuality is abnormal. A few percent of the population is homosexual (Kinsey's 10% is widely thought to be high). In Western Europe, gays are about as common as redheads - most people don't have red hair, but everyone knows a few.
Unusual or abnormal is not a value judgement.
[ 18. January 2014, 01:21: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I've told many an English person that I liked their accent.
Mrs. Cniht and I both have English accents, so unsurprisingly, eldest Cnihtlet also had one when she went to school. She came home immensely frustrated that all she could get from the school staff was "Gee, honey, what a cute accent you have!"
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
In a statistical sense, homosexuality is abnormal. A few percent of the population is homosexual (Kinsey's 10% is widely thought to be high). In Western Europe, gays are about as common as redheads - most people don't have red hair, but everyone knows a few.
Unusual or abnormal is not a value judgement.
ab·nor·mal (b-nôrml)
adj.
Not typical, usual, or regular; not normal; deviant.
nor·mal (nôrml)
2. Biology - Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies.
And there is also common usage. To many people, abnormal and normal are a value judgement.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not).
Time-- key point. The deep character observation you describe can't be pulled off by glancing at someone-- and definitely not by glancing only at how they look, instead of at how they comport themselves.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not). Now I'm beginning to wish I hadn't quit, it's so interesting.
I am going to sound like a complete, judgmental b!^@#, but I would qualify that as some people have layers. It truly is not a value judgement, though. Being layered or complex is not better, just different.
[ 18. January 2014, 05:32: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
In my experience, when people talk about people seeing heterosexuality as the default, they mean that people assume everyone is heterosexual unless they are specifically informed otherwise. Or that heterosexuality is the fundamentally 'correct/normal' way to be and everything else is just an aberration. Neither of which is a helpful assumption to make.
And yes, as JC said, it's quite possible to have asexual ancestors. And gay ancestors.
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
No one should assume a default for anyone else.
Isn't that what I said? Or were you agreeing with me?
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I dunno, I kind of like the idea of people being chummy to each other on the street. I am kind of shyly experimenting with being that way myself. For one thing, it can help dissolve the idea that any unsolicited comment is meant to be predatory-- if random cheery conversation is happening all the time, people will cease to be surprised by random cheery conversation.
Where I live random, cheery conversation in the street is the norm. When passing it's a 'hello' or 'good morning', if standing together due to being held up for some reason it's a chat. If you both have dogs it's almost obligatory to stop and ask the dog's name, age etc and chat about them.
Of course 'she's lovely' or 'he's a handsome boy' is a common comment.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Folks, as you're well aware, the issue of homosexuality belongs in Dead Horses. If you wish to discuss this aspect in more detail, start something there. There's plenty to discuss with regard to the OP without going into debates about the "(ab)normality" of sexuality here. Or, for the irascible, Hell is always an option. Thank you.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not).
Time-- key point. The deep character observation you describe can't be pulled off by glancing at someone-- and definitely not by glancing only at how they look, instead of at how they comport themselves.
Yes, well, it's like any relationship, people tend to gradually peel off their layers, and reveal more. It also takes trust of course, which is not automatic at all.
I suppose many people have a kind of outer form, or persona, and then there is stuff behind that (usually). Well, I still get surprised by myself, never mind, others.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not). Now I'm beginning to wish I hadn't quit, it's so interesting.
I am going to sound like a complete, judgmental b!^@#, but I would qualify that as some people have layers. It truly is not a value judgement, though. Being layered or complex is not better, just different.
I don't think you're a b!@#, or if you are, that's just the top layer!
I guess it's possible that some people have no hidden stuff, but it's unusual. Of course, the exciting stuff is hidden from yourself - spooky!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
And another you ought not to cross without an invitation is making any personal comments at all to strangers you pass in the street.
I dunno, I kind of like the idea of people being chummy to each other on the street. I am kind of shyly experimenting with being that way myself. For one thing, it can help dissolve the idea that any unsolicited comment is meant to be predatory-- if random cheery conversation is happening all the time, people will cease to be surprised by random cheery conversation.
Yes, cheery conversation with stangers, definitely! Though in England it tends only to work in pubs, long-distance trains, when people are drunk, during disasters, or in certain Northern cities (most notably Sheffield, where it is hard to wait at a bus-stop without hearing the story of someone's life, but probably South Yorkshire in general. And Lancashire as well. On the other hand there are parts of rural North Yorkshire where you aren't considered worthy of notice unless you have lived in the village for over thirty years and at least two of your grandparents were born locally)
But.... I don't really think making comments about someone's apperarance or attractiveness counts as cheery conversation. Too directly personal, too much chance for offence. Better to talk about other things.
[ 18. January 2014, 11:57: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But.... I don't really think making comments about someone's apperarance or attractiveness counts as cheery conversation. Too directly personal, too much chance for offence. Better to talk about other things.
Agreed.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Amika
Shipmate
# 15785
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
For myself, I make an effort to look clean, presentable, and wear appropriate clothes for the setting, such as for work. I don't, however, wear make up. I have a simple haircut that I don't have to style.
Ditto.
As for make up, I've never worn it and I never will, and I am now over fifty. I can't stand the stuff on my face, and I really don't care what anyone thinks. It never even occurs to me that people might think it strange - although reading this thread has reminded me that I'm in a tiny minority.
It really irks me that apparently, for women, make up is considered to be almost as essential as clothing. It is recommended that we wear it for interviews, etc. Why should my chances of getting a job depend on my face being plastered in expensive guck? Even customer-facing jobs should not require make up as 'essential wear'.
[ 18. January 2014, 20:32: Message edited by: Amika ]
Posts: 147 | From: Ingerland | Registered: Aug 2010
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
As for make up, I've never worn it and I never will, and I am now over fifty.
I'm happily married to a no make up wearer. It doesn't bother me, in fact I seldom notice if a woman's face is made up unless it is overdone. Iy does not bother me.
Actually it does bother me as I dislike the taste of make up.
[fixed code, braving TMI]
[ 19. January 2014, 06:20: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
The idea that women who wear lots of makeup are shallow is just as bad. I wear makeup every day, and not particularly subtle stuff, because I enjoy it. I love applying makeup, it's like colouring in but on my face
If anyone told me to stop wearing makeup I'd tell them to stuff it, but if anyone told me to start wearing it if I didn't already they would get the same!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I get people on the train looking round at me. Usually people who have watched Breaking Bad.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I get people on the train looking round at me. Usually people who have watched Breaking Bad.
HEISENBERG!!!! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Re the topic of the thread: I rarely comment on people's looks and when I do it tends to be about attire--'nice tie!' 'that color looks great on you!' and the like.
When I was younger I would get comments and cat-calls from men on the street from time to time. It always made me feel uncomfortable and dehumanized. Now that I am close to 60, I am quite invisible, and I enjoy that.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But.... I don't really think making comments about someone's apperarance or attractiveness counts as cheery conversation. Too directly personal, too much chance for offence. Better to talk about other things.
Agreed.
... Wait, you said above that comments about appearance were common where you live, and it didn't seem like you were complaining.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But.... I don't really think making comments about someone's apperarance or attractiveness counts as cheery conversation. Too directly personal, too much chance for offence. Better to talk about other things.
Agreed.
... Wait, you said above that comments about appearance were common where you live, and it didn't seem like you were complaining.
Yes they are, amongst people who know each other, work colleagues etc. Not when meeting someone and chatting in the street/out on a walk.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
OK, fair enough. That is a good distinction.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
Women's bodies and appearance are a subject for public discourse in a way that men's bodies are not. Even women discuss other women's appearance in a different manner than they discuss men's bodies. This is so internalized and automatic that most people don't even notice it except when it becomes annoying or disturbing. Look at all the magazines devoted to nit-picking famous women's bodies -- why is it so surprising that ordinary women's bodies get talked about as well? It's also why the street harassment being discussed next door is pretty much everywhere, in one form or another.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Funny you said that-- I ran across one of those "celebs without makeup" articles that was titled something like "Shocking photos of celebrities, blah blah bla."
For the record, except for a couple cases of bad plastic surgery victims, the dressed down photos of celebs only turned them (for me, anyway) from impossibly intimidating demigoddesses to people I could cheerily sit down and have a coffee with, if invited. Most of the ladies looked cute as hell without makeup. The only shock for me was that I experienced bouncy maternal feelings for Beyonce, who I have never really cared for. She looked so... fresh! clean-scrubbed! cute! She had a little hoodie on and jeans and I just wanted to hug her to bits!
There was some explanatory paragraph reassuring the reader that the photos were not intended to shame the women, but merely to show they were just gals. I asked in the comments, "In that case, why is the article not titled,'Reassuring photos of celebs without...'"
[ 19. January 2014, 19:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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