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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The CofE up North in the Guardian
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Ahleal V
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# 8404
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Posted
Did the rest of your post get cut off?
The article seems to have raised the heckles of my colleagues, and an interesting response - prompted by the less interesting article in the Indie - can be found here.
I find it difficult in the days where we have to fill in forms and apply for jobs, to consider that God calls us to a particular place. Are we moved around like pieces by a divine chess-master?
I know that most clergy I know consider their movements with a) the job of their spouse in mind, b) the education of their children, and c) other family commitments. The second in particular - I regularly have a conversation with one clergyman and say 'you should really apply for this' to which he invariably responds, 'not until DC has completed GCSE/A-levels.'
(The question of how many clergy are dependant on the salary of their spouse for their family is a fascinating question for another post, I guess.)
Also, if the majority of the ordinands are coming from the South, then it seems quite obvious that they're going to gravitate to the South. Why is the North producing fewer ordinands?
x
AV
[ 16. February 2014, 12:05: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
Well indeed.
Were more stipendiary clergy raised from 'the north', then clergy wouldn't need to feel like missionaries or on alien territory because they would be on their own turf...or something like it.
Raise vocations in the geographical area where it's needed. Solves a whole heap of problems.
[ 16. February 2014, 12:24: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
Obviously, the lack of ordinands reflects the diminishing presence of the church in that area.
If you don't know what it is, you don't join it.
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It's Not That Simple
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
That article reminds me of a long-gone thread about the poshness of CofE vicars. It also proves that for all the 'specialness' of ordination, the CofE clergy are much like everyone else.
It's noticeable that the largest churches (CofE or otherwise) in England are more likely to be in the South than in the North, and large churches are more likely to have young people - just the right age to be considering ordination. Middle class folk are more likely to be in church, and also more likely to be in the South, where the good jobs are (hence middle class ordinands are also likely to be from there). And until recently all CofE ordinands were trained at Oxbridge, according to the link! Those are institutions with a southern bias, geographically and culturally.
The article doesn't make any mention of other churches in the vicinity of St. Oswald's. It would be encouraging to know that there are other options if the CofE is really struggling. But I doubt that any of them are doing well in that area.
(Refs are available)
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Ahleal V
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# 8404
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
And until recently all CofE ordinands were trained at Oxbridge, according to the link!
I would draw a very big distinction between those who went to Oxbridge through their own choice as undergraduates, and those who take second degrees in Theology in their time at theological college.
I don't think the two situations can be compared. For one thing, ordinands do not have the time for friendship making, sport, theatre or other socialising. And they tend to compress the degree into two years.
Certainly, the ordinands who have already been to Oxbridge tend to have a confidence in their own ability that others do not have.
(This is, of course, a generalisation.)
x
AV
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Still, I imagine that psychologically-speaking going to Oxbridge to do any sort of study might be a bit off-putting to some potential candidates. Not many, though; the discouragement and self-doubt probably start at an earlier stage.
[ 16. February 2014, 14:06: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
The article goes on within a few sentences to mention "Cranmer Hall in Durham, a theological college that has been training Anglican priests for more than a century..."
Oxbridge arguably trains a disproportionate number of Anglican priests. But "almost all" is certainly an exaggeration.
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GreyBeard
Apprentice
# 113
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Posted
There was also a item about this on BBC Radio 4 this morning. That, and the piece in the Guardian, made the north sound so grim that I couldn't help but shake my head.
Believe it not, the north of England has the usual mixture of affluence and poverty, hope and despair. The north even has wonderful scenery and some fantastic churches.
I do think that a more positive view could be taken of service here in the north. We don't eat people up here and most of us don't race whippets or wear clogs any more. We even have schools and universities and most people have even have jobs.
But then I'm biased; being a northerner.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
To be fair, GreyBeard, Lancaster is a bit of a hippy outlier in the North, and the North West in general is much better off than the North East. I've lived in Preston and Lancaster, and bits of both (especially Preston) are very grim indeed. I think the issue is that there are grim bits both North and South, but because there are more clergy from the South those clergy looking to work in a deprived area will look close to home first before looking to move across the country. If you can minister to the needy of St. Pauls in Bristol why would you need to move to Rylands in Lancaster?
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
One of the biggest stumbling blocks to easy movement south to north when I was young was that the exam boards at secondary level were completely different, so if you had a couple (or more) children at secondary level you were probably unable to move.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It also proves that for all the 'specialness' of ordination, the CofE clergy are much like everyone else.
I don't recall anyone saying otherwise. The idea of the 'specialness' of ordination to those who hold to that, isn't anything to do with the specialness of the person holding the office but the office itself ...
But I suspect you knew that already ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Callan
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# 525
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Posted
This isn't a new situation. A former colleague of mine is a senior clergyman in the north of England and when he was appointed (a little over a decade ago), I remember him mentioning in passing that it was taken for granted in his new Diocese that they never had enough priests to go round unlike the south which is notoriously oversubscribed.
Southerners who head up north (IME) tend to be people whose faces don't fit in their Dioceses and who are warned by someone senior that there might not be a place when their curacy comes to an end. So, half flipping liabilities, half good people who have ticked someone off (or just don't fit in to the prevailing ethos) and have the gumption to try and start a new life in a different place. So if you are ever a northern parish rep tempted to appoint a southern priest find out if they are the equivalent of a hardworking Polish Plumber or a Muslim kicked out of Saudi Arabia for being a bit too hardline!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Perhaps word needs to get around that, if you wish to be considered for a senior post in the church, you should really have North as well as South on your CV (or at least a 'deprived' parish in the South)....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
One of the biggest stumbling blocks to easy movement south to north when I was young was that the exam boards at secondary level were completely different, so if you had a couple (or more) children at secondary level you were probably unable to move.
Very different now. You can find pretty much any board anywhere in England, and can even vary within one school (or even one department - the first school I worked in used different boards for GCSE and A-Level). Moving schools should only be a serious problem in the 4 years around GCSEs and A-Levels, however. Spousal careers are likely to be the bigger issue these days, and indeed has been for a good friend of mine, though he's already in the north.
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
Mind you, shouldn't be too much of a problem now that A Certain Church Newspaper is practically offering to run a parish's Clergy Wanted advert until it's filled.
But, serious questions:
How many parishes are genuinely unable to fill their post?
How many are being....erhm....left fallow, almost-but-not-quite on purpose?
And how many parishes just don't know how to go about getting a Vicar and for whatever-on-earth reason why, don't ask for advice or help from those they could?
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Amos
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# 44
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Posted
Church of England clergy who have spent time looking for jobs will know that there are certain dioceses that rarely advertise posts in the Church press, a number of which are in the north of England There were also rumours about the time that I was looking to move on from my assistant curacy that at least one diocese in Yorkshire were looking to fill all posts 'in house'--that is, from their own assistant curates, and thus it was not worth the bother to try.
I notice that the Diocese of Chelmsford has lately been doing the advertising of posts centrally: that is, one big ad with everything listed on it (and a smiley picture of the Bishop, together with the mission strapline, front and centre). This looks like it might be a good idea for northern dioceses that are having trouble getting applicants--it would also save the individual parishes the cost of the ad.
[ 16. February 2014, 21:34: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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OddJob
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# 17591
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Posted
I wonder how a comparison of affluent northern towns and poor southern ones would read?
That said, the survey a year or two ago by the Evangelical Alliance looking at church demographics made interesting reading. I took part and read the results, which confirmed the existence of the regional bias in church membership I'd long perceived, in over 30 adult years living in four cities in the north and Midlands. These days I'm equidistant from London, the main Yorkshire cities and Liverpool. Yet I've met hardly any fellow Yorkshiremen in the church, compared to countless folk from London (with only double Yorkshire's population) and for some reason a remarkably high number of Scousers.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
I wonder how a comparison of affluent northern towns and poor southern ones would read?
That said, the survey a year or two ago by the Evangelical Alliance looking at church demographics made interesting reading. I took part and read the results, which confirmed the existence of the regional bias in church membership I'd long perceived, in over 30 adult years living in four cities in the north and Midlands. These days I'm equidistant from London, the main Yorkshire cities and Liverpool. Yet I've met hardly any fellow Yorkshiremen in the church, compared to countless folk from London (with only double Yorkshire's population) and for some reason a remarkably high number of Scousers.
Are you able to provide either a link or a summary of that survey. It sounds as though it could be interesting and useful?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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pydseybare
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# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
That said, the survey a year or two ago by the Evangelical Alliance looking at church demographics made interesting reading. I took part and read the results, which confirmed the existence of the regional bias in church membership I'd long perceived, in over 30 adult years living in four cities in the north and Midlands. These days I'm equidistant from London, the main Yorkshire cities and Liverpool. Yet I've met hardly any fellow Yorkshiremen in the church, compared to countless folk from London (with only double Yorkshire's population) and for some reason a remarkably high number of Scousers.
Isn't that just saying that more people from the south live in the Midlands than from Yorkshire?
We lived for some years in the West Midlands, and attended a fairly middle class Evangelical church. Almost everyone was from the West Midlands conurbation - I'm not sure what this proves..
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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lowlands_boy
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# 12497
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Posted
This has some interesting echoes for this Methodist. In theory, Methodist ministers commit at ordination to full itinerancy, and are stationed for 5 years in each appointment.
In reality, extensions to appointments are commonplace nowadays, frequently to avoid interruption to schooling. Geographic restrictions are common as well - sometimes they are to allow care of an elderly relative, but increasingly nowadays spouses employment is an issue - "I need to be within an hour of XXX in order for my spouse to continue their job".
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I thought I should update my signature line....
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That article reminds me of a long-gone thread about the poshness of CofE vicars. It also proves that for all the 'specialness' of ordination, the CofE clergy are much like everyone else.
If it was an issue of poshness alone, then they wouldn't want to go to deprived areas in the South either.
The vicar of my parish church is leaving a leafy inner London suburb for the mostly black, mostly poor area on the other side of the borough. And this is a man with a double-barrelled name who uses golf as analogy in his sermons.
I would suspect it has more to do with the growing evangelical/charismatic influence in CoE theological colleges at the moment. If Holy Trinity Brompton decided to set up a church plant somewhere in the North they would have their pick of Ridley and Wycliffe Hall graduates.
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
What GreyBeard said, plus just to reiterate that ordinand figures are:
- over 50% now train on regional courses (and there are now two college / course hybrid institutions)
- there are 11 English colleges which ordinands may go to, located in Cambridge (2 colleges), Oxford (3 colleges), north London, Birmingham, Bristol, Nottingham, Mirfield (= Huddersfield)and Durham. They may also train at Llandaff if they wish. Three of the English colleges are in the northern province. Oxbridge lost its grip on clergy training long ago.
In Norfolk, we find recruiting hard for many parish posts - we are not clear why, but factors may include that people think Norfolk is remote from civilisation (not entirely true.... - Norwich to London in under two hours; Cambridge in about an hour) but also that clergy don't want to move far in case their spouse cannot get a new job.
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
... In Norfolk, we find recruiting hard for many parish posts - we are not clear why, but factors may include that people think Norfolk is remote from civilisation (not entirely true.... - Norwich to London in under two hours; Cambridge in about an hour) but also that clergy don't want to move far in case their spouse cannot get a new job.
"Very flat, Norfolk".
Noel Coward, Private Lives
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
There are parishes in the 'affluent' South-East, my own for example, which have had to cope with loooooooooong interregna (in our case, nearly four years.....).
Still, full marks for Fr. Buttery and St. Oswald's, Hartlepool, for Keeping Calm, Carrying On, and Keeping The Rumour Of God Alive!! Whilst such clergy and congregations exist, so will the much-maligned C of E.......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Re: Norfolk 4 Ministry.
I can think of one clergy spouse who found that friends and family tended not to "drop in" on the way to or from holiday; Norfolk not being really on the way to anywhere except the north sea. It sounds like just a little thing, but to that family it meant a marked drop in overnight stays and keeping up with friends.
That said, the family in question had a long and happy ministry in Norfolk....once settled.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
People think Norfolk is remote from civilisation (not entirely true.... - Norwich to London in under two hours; Cambridge in about an hour).
Assuming there isn't a signal failure at Chelmsford, a broken-down train at Diss, over-running engineering works at Witham, a staff shortage at Crown Point depot ...
Yet quite a lot of people commute from Norwich to London on a daily basis!
When I first came to a town not very far from Norfolk, I heard that "people don't want to come east of the A1".
[ 17. February 2014, 17:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That article reminds me of a long-gone thread about the poshness of CofE vicars. It also proves that for all the 'specialness' of ordination, the CofE clergy are much like everyone else.
If it was an issue of poshness alone, then they wouldn't want to go to deprived areas in the South either.
The vicar of my parish church is leaving a leafy inner London suburb for the mostly black, mostly poor area on the other side of the borough. And this is a man with a double-barrelled name who uses golf as analogy in his sermons.
The other side of the borough is hardly the other side of the country! He can still get to his favourite haunts.
But you're right - there's obviously more to it than mere poshness, but it's true to say that churchgoing in general the CofE and its clergy in particular all have a middle class image, which works against people's people's stereotypes of the North.
quote:
If Holy Trinity Brompton decided to set up a church plant somewhere in the North they would have their pick of Ridley and Wycliffe Hall graduates.
I wonder why they don't do that. They might as well just become the church planting wing of the CofE if that's how other people see them!
[code]
[ 17. February 2014, 18:03: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
It is an interesting point to make (re HTB starting a Northern church plant).
I lived for some years in East Sussex, which has some areas of real deprivation alongside serious wealth. It is also home to probably the most conservative evangelicalism in the CoE, which seems to do pretty well in said deprived areas. Make of that what you will.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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OddJob
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# 17591
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Posted
In response to Enoch's question, see:
http://www.eauk.org/church/resources/snapshot/
I can't see a 'quote' option to recite the question.
My conclusion is based partly on 'obiter' comments from the authors about the regions from which contributors to a number of the surveys were either prolific or sparse.
In response to Pydseybare, I'd say that in my work and general social interaction in the West Midlands, the number of Liverpudlians, Yorkshire folk and Londoners is roughly in proportion to the relative population sizes of those places. However the geographical roots of church membership shows a very different picture, in my experience of living here and also in the East Midlands.
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
That article reminds me of a long-gone thread about the poshness of CofE vicars. It also proves that for all the 'specialness' of ordination, the CofE clergy are much like everyone else.
It's noticeable that the largest churches (CofE or otherwise) in England are more likely to be in the South than in the North, and large churches are more likely to have young people - just the right age to be considering ordination. Middle class folk are more likely to be in church, and also more likely to be in the South, where the good jobs are (hence middle class ordinands are also likely to be from there). And until recently all CofE ordinands were trained at Oxbridge, according to the link! Those are institutions with a southern bias, geographically and culturally.
The article doesn't make any mention of other churches in the vicinity of St. Oswald's. It would be encouraging to know that there are other options if the CofE is really struggling. But I doubt that any of them are doing well in that area.
(Refs are available)
Heyya ma ma ma, hey-dee-da-naya
Heyya ma ma ma, heyya
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
And again, in the Queen's English please?
BTW, with reference to Gamaliel's point above, of course we all know in theory that it's the office of the ordained minister, not the minister himself, that' 'special'. Nevertheless, churchgoers, non-churchgoing Christians and the general public alike still seem to expect the clergy to be role models, to set certain standards by their own behaviour. If such expectations are inappropriate then the message should be sent out loud and clear. Perhaps!
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
And again, in the Queen's English please?
Life in a Northern town
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Some further thoughts...
Is Norfolk in the north or south? We came here from Durham (and previously from Manchester)and we thought / think it feels like the south if you have come from the north (!) We hear a significant number of London / Essex accents in Norwich - possibly to do with being on the end of the line from Liverpool Street. Yet I have also met a few ex-pat Brummies like me. However, my vicar - who moved here 10 years ago from Essex, is convinced this is the north of England. We are of course both right and both wrong. These perceptions do play into the clergy recruitment issues though.
Away from the Fine City (of Norwich) the county is different - apart from Kings Lynn and Yarmouth. i think the comment above about not having people drop in is very true - we find the bsame. We got more passing trade of friends and family in Durham. We have been made very welcome here and can commend Norfolk to people - as we can Manchester and Durham, where we were before.
And Norwich is more hilly than you'd think! South Lincolnshire - now that is flat...
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Beeswax Altar
Thanks. It did ring a vague bell with me. But I'm not sure how it connects with my post rather than anyone else's!
Penny S
Your recent link suggests that female clergy could help to fill the gap. They probably could. But perhaps spousal careers are an even bigger challenge for female clergy than they are for male clergy, and the problem with the children's education will remain.
One letter mentioned that although the Methodists once filled the long-standing gap left by the CofE's inadequate northern presence, many of the Nonconformist churches have now withdrawn from those struggling communities. It's very sad, but understandable. As much as they may want to serve the poor, Methodist, Baptist, URC and Independent congregations, etc., can't function as institutional units without money. Industrial decline in the North must have decimated the churches there.
Why doesn't the CofE import clergy from elsewhere in the Anglican Communion? It's normal for the RCC to send its priests around the world.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Charles Read - I am rather surprised at someone from Essex considering Norfolk to be the North! They are both East Anglia to me. I would tend to consider Eastern England to be a separate region to the North, South or Midlands. At a push I'd consider it Midlands, at an even bigger push I'd consider it South. It doesn't seem very Northern in character to me! I'd consider Lincolnshire to be in the very North-Eastern corner of the Midlands FWIW. (I am from Coventry so I feel I can judge who is in the Midlands )
Svitlana - there are priests from elsewhere in the Anglican communion here, particularly Sydney Anglicans in conservative evangelical churches. I think the huge differences in theology (especially the female clergy issue) must make it difficult to import clergy wholesale. I'm not sure if many archdioceses in the communion have quite the same variety of churchmanship that we do - maybe Canada? New Zealand? I'd imagine that those countries, with their very rural areas, need their clergy too much to give some to us.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Nightlamp
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# 266
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Posted
The real issue is probably the lack of Northern ordinands.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Svitlana - there are priests from elsewhere in the Anglican communion here, particularly Sydney Anglicans in conservative evangelical churches. I think the huge differences in theology (especially the female clergy issue) must make it difficult to import clergy wholesale. I'm not sure if many archdioceses in the communion have quite the same variety of churchmanship that we do - maybe Canada? New Zealand? I'd imagine that those countries, with their very rural areas, need their clergy too much to give some to us.
If the churches in the North are struggling as much as people say then perhaps it ill behoves them to be too fussy about churchmanship! Moreover, it might do some of the incoming clergy good to be in a theological environment where they can see that the obvious need for willing workers is far more urgent than the need to exclude women from the ministry.
We sometimes read about (non-CofE) African evangelists proclaiming that they need to be in the UK to re-evangelise the Motherland. We don't hear so much about how they envision this project a few years after embarking upon it, but some have surely realised that reaching the indigenous population is much harder than they expected. Perhaps this leads to greater humility. It would certainly be interesting to follow the trajectory of an African Anglican minister and their work in a parish like the one in the OP.
[ 18. February 2014, 21:11: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Svitlana - there are priests from elsewhere in the Anglican communion here, particularly Sydney Anglicans in conservative evangelical churches. I think the huge differences in theology (especially the female clergy issue) must make it difficult to import clergy wholesale. I'm not sure if many archdioceses in the communion have quite the same variety of churchmanship that we do - maybe Canada? New Zealand? I'd imagine that those countries, with their very rural areas, need their clergy too much to give some to us.
If the churches in the North are struggling as much as people say then perhaps it ill behoves them to be too fussy about churchmanship! Moreover, it might do some of the incoming clergy good to be in a theological environment where they can see that the obvious need for willing workers is far more urgent than the need to exclude women from the ministry.
We sometimes read about (non-CofE) African evangelists proclaiming that they need to be in the UK to re-evangelise the Motherland. We don't hear so much about how they envision this project a few years after embarking upon it, but some have surely realised that reaching the indigenous population is much harder than they expected. Perhaps this leads to greater humility. It would certainly be interesting to follow the trajectory of an African Anglican minister and their work in a parish like the one in the OP.
I think this is both misunderstanding what churchmanship means - it's not about fussiness or what you prefer, but about theological conviction - and very idealistic about those opposing female clergy. To them, women are not real clergy, period, it's not about fussiness.
I also think the DH tangent should end although given the topic I confess it is difficult.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I tend to feel that theological convictions are often bound up with our context. When our context changes, our convictions are challenged. People do change. And migrant religiosity changes in a new environment.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I tend to feel that theological convictions are often bound up with our context. When our context changes, our convictions are challenged. People do change. And migrant religiosity changes in a new environment.
With respect, you are not an Anglican and aren't seeing the theological differences on the ground. The traditionalists are very, very resistant to context of any kind. So yes, it may change within 100 years or so but it's not going to happen anytime soon and myself and other Anglicans are the ones dealing with that.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Wow! Evangelical Anglicanism must be en route to conquering the world if it has such single minded and ruthless clergy in its midst! The rest of you have no hope if that's what you're up against!
The North should make other plans, then, but in the long run perhaps it won't make much difference.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am rather surprised at someone from Essex considering Norfolk to be the North! They are both East Anglia to me. I would tend to consider Eastern England to be a separate region to the North, South or Midlands.
Having now lived here for 8 years, I definitely agree (and so does BBC regional programming, though its definition of "east" includes Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire, which I would dispute). I think that I'd include Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and the part of Essex north and east of Chelmsford.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One letter mentioned that although the Methodists once filled the long-standing gap left by the CofE's inadequate northern presence, many of the Nonconformist churches have now withdrawn from those struggling communities. It's very sad, but understandable. As much as they may want to serve the poor, Methodist, Baptist, URC and Independent congregations, etc., can't function as institutional units without money. Industrial decline in the North must have decimated the churches there.
But "Ecumenical" has to be the way ahead - as suggested by this paper from the Diocese of Carlisle. However it does not (here at least) address the points you raise about decline and resourcing, nor the issues of folk who think that Nonconformist Ministers aren't "real priests", or Nonconformist church members who think that Anglicans aren't "proper Christians"!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Personally, I am RC but I have several fb friends who are C of E bishops and vicars, though I have never quizzed them about the lack of desirability regarding Hartlespool ( which I had never heard of before today ), and other towns in that neighbourhood...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am rather surprised at someone from Essex considering Norfolk to be the North! They are both East Anglia to me. I would tend to consider Eastern England to be a separate region to the North, South or Midlands.
Having now lived here for 8 years, I definitely agree (and so does BBC regional programming, though its definition of "east" includes Bedfordshire and Northamptonshire, which I would dispute). I think that I'd include Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and the part of Essex north and east of Chelmsford.
Correct (with the exclusion of Cambridgeshire) if you go by William the Conqueror.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Are there any comments on my post or is the North so horrible? I have been to Cirencester, Bath and Bristol as well as our ancestral home in Bucks. Do any of those count as North or places that have grave difficulty in securing permanent bishops and vicars?
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
We sometimes read about (non-CofE) African evangelists proclaiming that they need to be in the UK to re-evangelise the Motherland. We don't hear so much about how they envision this project a few years after embarking upon it, but some have surely realised that reaching the indigenous population is much harder than they expected. Perhaps this leads to greater humility. It would certainly be interesting to follow the trajectory of an African Anglican minister and their work in a parish like the one in the OP.
African Anglicans have plenty of work to do in their own countries, first of all. In the area I'm familiar with (West Africa) there are a growing number of prosperity gospel/miracle healing churches that are fleecing people of the little money they have in exchange for "power prayers" leading to health and wealth. Many of these are deeply corrupt and hurting people's faiths and wallets. Orthodox (small "o" here) churches stand as a counterpoint to this type of activity.
Another point is that there may be concerns or fears among black or ethnic minority clergy in the CofE about their ability to lead and evangelize in less diverse parts of the country, where they may face discrimination.
Having said that, there are a good number of Africans in leadership in the Church of England, and although many were ordained in England they often grew up in Anglican churches in their home countries. Of course the Archbishop of York is an African man.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
I think that I'd include Norfolk, Suffolk, Cambridgeshire and the part of Essex north and east of Chelmsford.
Correct (with the exclusion of Cambridgeshire) if you go by William the Conqueror.
Oh, I'd ignore him. My ancestors were all German.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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