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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Desert Daughter, you spout the most arrogant crap sometimes
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
In the Akedia thread, where you say all sorts of unjustifiable things.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Acadia/Depression is very often the price one pays for understanding things.
There seems to be a tendency amongst some to try to clearly differentiate Acedia from Depression. After all, Acedia is considered to be a "sin", and depression has, in modern discourse, been clearly declared to be an "illness", hence 'not-evil'.
Its terrible isn't it, these people who seek to differentiate between a debilitating mental illness, those who are lazy, and those who couldn't give a fuck any more. Far easier when they were all the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
In that vein, the man afflicted by acedia is said to have a superiority complex, thinking himself superior to his fellow men, and that of course is a big no-no in postmodern discourse.
I am glad that in your world arrogance is acceptable. it must make you very happy.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Whereas the poor chap who is afflicted by depression suffers from an inferiority complex, which immediately makes him an object of concern, care, and various attempts by well-meaning others to "uplift" him, since, in the same postmodern discourse of careful PC-ness, we are all equally wonderful, and all equally "okay".
All very nice and very fuzzy-cosy.
But it ain't that simple.
I take it you have never suffered from depression? No of course not, because you would not spout this insane drivel if you had. So you are talking from a position of ignorance. Quite deep, probably bottomless ignorance.
People who suffer from depression have a shit time. We are subject to the same sort of well-meaning concern that those who are just fucked off with the whole enterprise are. We are subjected to the same platitudes that you church out.
We don't get "uplifted". We don't get told "that is OK". At the best, we get support and concern, but it is the same concern that anyone with doubts or lethargy regarding their spiritual life would get.
Not, of course, that you would have a clue.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Acedia is more complex than that, the "noonday demon" also (and heavily) strikes hermits (who are not surrounded by mediocre brethren to whom they could feel superior).
Just as "depression" changes its meaning throughout the ages, and we should not take the latest pronouncements of (heavily culture-dependent) bodies such as the American Psychological Association on the matter as The Gospel (TM), Acedia too has meant different things to different writers throughout the ages.
The Noonday Demon is a term used for depression. I think you are confusing your arrogances here. And it is good that depression changes its meaning, as does Acedia. That is the nature of scientific progress and development, that the nature and understanding of terms grows and develops.
I presume that you would prefer terms stayed exactly as they were when your thinking was considered acceptable.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
So seeking to sharply distinguish between the two is a merely pseudo-academic (and rather futile) exercise; the Zeitgeist of course might have it otherwise, but in the end both are afflictions of the soul and as such, sin or not, must be addresed with a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.
They are "sharply distinguished" only in that they have different roots, and probably different ways of dealing with them. Generally accepted ideas these days (I know this is all a bit post-modern for your antedilluvian brain cell) is that depression, as with all mental illnesses, has a large range of presentations, degrees, and experiences. So the sharp defining lines are not that sharp or defining.
However, having said that, the prescription of "pulling oneself together" is not valid for depression or realising that the whole of Christendom is a corrupt waste of space. Really "Prayer and Discipline" - maybe some expert help in removing oneself from the stupidity of some practitioners of the faith, and a chance to realise that not all are are mindless, incompetent and dangerous as you are.
Karl kindly suggested that you might get torn limb from limb for some of your comments. Consider this the initial stringing up.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Makes a change. DD is usually so boring.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
And, Desert Daughter, be aware that the majority of people who feel targeted by your judgementalism and arrogance will just have slumped back in their chairs thinking 'Yeah, the world just thinks I'm crap.'
Thanks SC for being able to articulate this.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
Also, enough with sneering down your nose at les Anglo-saxons already. You’re giving a very nice country a bad name.
Apart from which, lumping all the anglo-saxons together is a load of nonsense. I reckon I have more in common with the average French person than I do with the average American.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Thanks SC
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
There seems to be a tendency amongst some to try to clearly differentiate Acedia from Depression. After all, Acedia is considered to be a "sin", and depression has, in modern discourse, been clearly declared to be an "illness", hence 'not-evil'.
Yes - exactly right.
Desert Daughter - Depression is an illness and not in the slightest bit evil. Whoever has caused you to think otherwise is an unkind bastard.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
DD: I would say "I wish you'd come down with clinical depression so you'd know what it's like" but honestly I don't wish that shit on anyone. I'm quite happy to invite you to come out all over in hideous green pus-filled boils though. I'm not a good person or anything.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
Thanks SC for being able to articulate this.
There are times I find it therapeutic to stick people who spout this crap to the wall with their own blood.
Metaphorically, of course.
Probably.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Its terrible isn't it, these people who seek to differentiate between a debilitating mental illness, those who are lazy, and those who couldn't give a fuck any more. Far easier when they were all the same.
Thank you for starting this. We had a potentially quite interesting thread on Acedia, and I felt this post had been patronizing and condescending, at which point it seemed like a waste of time getting involved any more.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Desert Daughter - Depression is an illness and not in the slightest bit evil. Whoever has caused you to think otherwise is an unkind bastard.
Depression is evil, there is no better term for the sodding thing that ate what should have been the best years of my life.
Depression is an evil, insidious, insatiable parasite that feeds on despair and unhappiness, and will usually subtly get the moves in place to isolate you from anyone and anything that might be able to counter it before you realize this is happening. That's evil, IMO.
[ 07. February 2014, 17:50: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
Thank you for all your kind wishes.
Now if you'd read my previous posts a bit more carefully, you'd have noticed that I did indeed acknowledge that therapy and/or pills do have a valid role in overcoming depression.
Also, I did not say anywhere that I thought depression was evil.
And I most definitely have nothing against anglo-saxons. Au contraire.
You see, I'm a sort of ethnographer, and it is my day job to analyse what is called "discourse". In other words, I try to understand how certain cultures at certain points in time "frame", or address, certain issues. How they talk about it. What they consider is important, and what is, or is not, allowed to be said.
So I merely noticed that (a) there is a specific sort of discourse concerning depression that is currently common currency especially in anglo-saxon cultures; (b) I dared to point out that this is likely to be subject to change (it has changed in the past), and (c) I did, admittedly, poke a bit of fun at that discourse.
And before you get into another fit of self-righteous indignation, I poked fun at the discourse , not the condition (depr./acedia).
I also tried to make a distinction between acedia (and the different ways it has been understood throughout the ages, including the noonday demon) and depression.
And all I said was that there are indeed "conditions" where the best way out is to pull oneself together. I did not say anywhere that this was supposed to be the "only" way.
That's all, really. If you want to keep tearing me apart, feel free to do so. This sort of indignation is, after all, part of a certain...discourse. And most people engage in shared emotional discourse because they need self-affirmation.
So by all means if it makes you feel good go on and hate me for making fun at the way you talk. But don't try to read something into my posts I never said.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
I also tried to make a distinction between acedia (and the different ways it has been understood throughout the ages, including the noonday demon) and depression.
and
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
So seeking to sharply distinguish between the two is a merely pseudo-academic (and rather futile) exercise; the Zeitgeist of course might have it otherwise, but in the end both are afflictions of the soul and as such, sin or not, must be addresed with a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.
You truly are an expert at discourse! I, a mere amateur, would never have thought that saying it is "rather futile" to "sharply distinguish" the two was somehow trying "to make a distinction" between them.
Oh, wait! I see it now. You were trying to make a distinction but then failed miserably at it!
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
DD, you've been called to Hell for being obtuse and condescending in the presence of suffering, and for hiding behind tediously pretentious academic discourse.
So you appear, confirm the hell-call in every word of your post, and add to it passive-aggressiveness.
The Desert Fathers' prescription for acedia was manual work. Your manual work for today might be pulling your broomstick out of your bottom.
[ 08. February 2014, 07:28: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Thank you for all your kind wishes.
Pleasure. Could you make some of them happen please. And Fuck Right Off.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
You see, I'm a sort of ethnographer, and it is my day job to analyse what is called "discourse".
Some sort of ethnographer? If this is any indication, it is a bad sort of ethnographer. Really crap, because you seem to have no clue what you are talking about.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And before you get into another fit of self-righteous indignation, I poked fun at the discourse , not the condition (depr./acedia).
No you didn't. You dismissed the people who suffer from it. Whatever your intent.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
So by all means if it makes you feel good go on and hate me for making fun at the way you talk. But don't try to read something into my posts I never said.
Lets be clear, I posted your post in its entirety (except for one final paragraph that didn't impact the tenor of the rest of it). Nothing was taken out of context, nothing was misquoted. And it was the utter crap that I pointed out, and others have agreed with.
So in what way are we reading things into your posts that are not there? I mean, apart from not being able to know that what you write is not what you mean? Which would make you a lying little bitch.
Or maybe a troll. Although creatures made of stone, or creatures who can be fooled by 3 goats, might be insulted by this.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
DD, you've been called to Hell for being obtuse and condescending in the presence of suffering, and for hiding behind tediously pretentious academic discourse.
Not just pretentious academic discourse. Also a pious, arrogant 'these people are far from God, unlike me' discourse.
As if depression is some sort of evil action by the sufferer.
As I said before. Depression is not caused by some sort of external evil or internal evil.
It is an illness. A medical, chemical imbalance in the brain.
There is NO fault attached, not from the person with depression or any sort of other imagined 'devils' or evils.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Depression is a bit of sacred cow topic when it comes to rational discussion on the ship because too many shipmates suffer from it and it pushes lots of emotional buttons.
The worst button seems to be the "pull yourself together" one ( or as DD described it: discipline)
Interesting reading the purg thread that the symptoms of Acidie and Depression seem to be the same but Acidie is caused by an elevated sense of self whereas Depression is usually associated with a poor sense of self.
The "pull yourself together" pushes all the wrong buttons because it makes the depressed person feel more worthless than they already do because they are unable to "pull themselves together".
Or are they?
Seems entirely dependent on what kind of depression of course. Depression is a spectrum. Some people can and should and do "pull themselves together". Others cannot.
The other problem is that if you delegate depression purely to mechanistic and materialistic language ( it's just chemical imbalances in the brain ) you cut off dialogue about possible causes and treatments (besides purely pharmacological ones).
It seems to me causes and treatments are complex and manifold and depend on the type and severity of depression.
The bigger issue seems to be why it's one of the biggest health issues today that the western world faces whereas it hasn't been historically. You can attribute this to "better recognition and treatment" if you like, but I think that's far too simplistic and simply wrong.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Previously people just died. Because stress depresses the immune system, because it was a struggle to survive for many and hopelessness impairs your ability to struggle and because people often died young - difficult to get, for example, post-natal depression if you die n childbirth.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The Desert Fathers' prescription for acedia was manual work.
Which is interesting. One of the treatments for depression is physical exercise.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
The Desert Fathers' prescription for acedia was manual work.
Which is interesting. One of the treatments for depression is physical exercise.
And often a very effective one.
I don't deny that there may well be similarities between the two, I just dislike intently the bile that spews forth from DD on this subject.
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Depression is a bit of sacred cow topic when it comes to rational discussion on the ship because too many shipmates suffer from it and it pushes lots of emotional buttons.
No, it is not a sacred cow. There can be a lot of rational discussion of it on the ship. In fact, there is an entire board dedicated to discussion of mental health issues, in a spirit of acceptance and rationality.
But because so many shipmates suffer from it, or have been associated with it in families, spouting stupidity about it does tend to cause rather heated responses, because so many of us have heard this sort of crap spouted at us in churches, by Christians, and it can take us a long time to recover from it, and start to deal with the real problems.
When people who know nothing about the subject spout trite banalities to people who know far more about it than they want to, the result will be aggressive responses. I actually think this is a good think, because some of these people couldn't tell their vicar to "fuck off and stop spouting crap", but can express it here.
So, to everyone*: Fuck Off with your bigoted opinions on things you know nothing about, especially to people who do know.
*Includes myself.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The other problem is that if you delegate depression purely to mechanistic and materialistic language ( it's just chemical imbalances in the brain ) you cut off dialogue about possible causes and treatments (besides purely pharmacological ones).
Only if you think nothing but pharmacology can affect brain chemistry. Which is a radically stupid thing to think.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The other problem is that if you delegate depression purely to mechanistic and materialistic language ( it's just chemical imbalances in the brain ) you cut off dialogue about possible causes and treatments (besides purely pharmacological ones).
Only if you think nothing but pharmacology can affect brain chemistry. Which is a radically stupid thing to think.
Exactly.
All the many and varied treatments for depression are ways of helping to repair and heal the brain chemistry. The treatments are many and varied because people are many and varied.
One thing it isn't is a spiritual battle. I resent implications that a closer walk with God will heal it. It won't.
I very nearly lost my husband, three times, to depression. He took to his bed for three months when my children were tiny. I became the only breadwinner. It took him four years to recover. Now he seems to be on an even keel - but it's hard not to look over your shoulder sometimes.
I resent Desert Daughter's implication that he could have healed himself.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Originally posted by Boogie
quote:
One thing it isn't is a spiritual battle. I resent implications that a closer walk with God will heal it. It won't.
It is this attitude I found annoying as well.
She did come round to say "never said only" but....
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Just a point of clarity. Depression is a spectrum of disorder. Not always brain chemical thing. Not always reactive to life. It may one, or the other or both. But it is not a choice anyone would make to have, anymore than anyone would choose to have any other potentially life threatening condition.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I became a Christian during the fourth year of a fourteen year struggle with depression. Which returned after a couple years' remission, and continues to be an issue twenty-five years later.
God has done a lot of things for me, but one thing he declines to do is to banish my depression. "My strength is made perfect in weakness," I think is the phrase.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Originally posted by Boogie
quote:
One thing it isn't is a spiritual battle. I resent implications that a closer walk with God will heal it. It won't.
It is this attitude I found annoying as well.
She did come round to say "never said only" but....
That made it worse. The backtracking indicated ignorance, which in company with arrogance is a toxic combo.
[ 08. February 2014, 20:19: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The other problem is that if you delegate depression purely to mechanistic and materialistic language ( it's just chemical imbalances in the brain ) you cut off dialogue about possible causes and treatments (besides purely pharmacological ones).
Only if you think nothing but pharmacology can affect brain chemistry. Which is a radically stupid thing to think.
I think that most people who think depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain also think mainly in terms of addressing this through pharmacology. Yes, this is probably "radically stupid" - isn't it clear that Evensong also thinks it's stupid?
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The other problem is that if you delegate depression purely to mechanistic and materialistic language ( it's just chemical imbalances in the brain ) you cut off dialogue about possible causes and treatments (besides purely pharmacological ones).
Only if you think nothing but pharmacology can affect brain chemistry. Which is a radically stupid thing to think.
I think that most people who think depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain also think mainly in terms of addressing this through pharmacology. Yes, this is probably "radically stupid" - isn't it clear that Evensong also thinks it's stupid?
Yes but she draws the wrong conclusion from it, viz., that depression is not a chemical imbalance in the brain.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes but she draws the wrong conclusion from it, viz., that depression is not a chemical imbalance in the brain.
Where does she do that? I don't get that from what she said at all.
[ 08. February 2014, 23:15: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]
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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yes but she draws the wrong conclusion from it, viz., that depression is not a chemical imbalance in the brain.
Where does she do that? I don't get that from what she said at all.
Then one of us is reading it wrong. Let Evensong explain what she means if it's not what I read her to mean. Although I'm sure you're a competent defender of the oppressed, I'm sure she knows better what she meant than you do.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Then one of us is reading it wrong.
you are, you moron.
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Seems entirely dependent on what kind of depression of course. Depression is a spectrum. Some people can and should and do "pull themselves together". Others cannot.
[...]
The other problem is that if you delegate depression purely to mechanistic and materialistic language ( it's just chemical imbalances in the brain ) you cut off dialogue about possible causes and treatments (besides purely pharmacological ones).
"possible causes and treatments besides purley pharmacological ones" says nowhere quote:
from MT:
nothing but pharmacology can affect brain chemistry.
I'm one of the last people around here to defend Evensong. and her wierdass attitude about depression annoys the fuck out of me. but your black and white view of everything, and need to say if she doesn't agree with you completely then she must disagree with you completely just manages to illustrate how much you have completely lost the fucking plot on this topic.
Mousethief, I know you are not an idiot. I've witnessed you not being an idiot, oh, several times - but on this topic, you're a fucking idiot.
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Depression is a bit of sacred cow topic when it comes to rational discussion on the ship because too many shipmates suffer from it and it pushes lots of emotional buttons.
No, it is not a sacred cow. .......... and here follows four paragraphs of cleverly disguised love/hate worship to disprove my point.
There fixed it for you.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The other problem is that if you delegate depression purely to mechanistic and materialistic language ( it's just chemical imbalances in the brain ) you cut off dialogue about possible causes and treatments (besides purely pharmacological ones).
Only if you think nothing but pharmacology can affect brain chemistry. Which is a radically stupid thing to think.
He's smart, this one.
Much of my life revolves around managing my tendency to have low serotonin levels. Sure, a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) is one way of managing it, but so is a good night's sleep. Or a cup of tea. Though I suppose that might count as pharmacology.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Depression is a bit of sacred cow topic when it comes to rational discussion on the ship because too many shipmates suffer from it and it pushes lots of emotional buttons.
No, it is not a sacred cow. .......... and here follows four paragraphs of cleverly disguised love/hate worship to disprove my point.
There fixed it for you.
As I said, Pyx_e love, rational discussion is not a problem. Declaring answers and not listening to the sufferers is. Dismissing the many people who actually know something about the subject is a problem, as with any subject.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
DD--
Question: when you do your ethnographic work, how do you do it? Filtering pre-existing data, talking to members of a particular demographic, comparing notes with other ethnographers, or...?
ISTM that most people of any particular group are apt to react negatively if an outsider deconstructs the group's culture--especially if it's done in front of them.
On the Ship, any mention of a particular group is apt to bring group members out of the woodwork--with their experiences, opinions, and corrections to others' posts.
You're speaking TO people with depression, DD, so *of course* we get upset when your deconstruction (seems to) minimize and repack our experiences.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
@ Golden Key:
what I do is called "Discourse Analysis", but my using that term can be misleading, because among sociologists many associate this method with a Foucauldian stance, which I most certainly do not share. My own research approach is called "critical realism".
As to methods, I mix based on the sort of empiria available to me in the field: participant observation wherever possible, and open, unstructured interviews, inviting people to engage in "storytelling". These are then transcribed and coded. Coding is done, if possible, with colleagues, so we get a variety of perspectives on a phenomenon.
The main idea behind this is to try and "deconstruct" (yes, that term can be used, even though I need to stress that I am not a postmodernist -I have no political agenda in trying to "give voice to the Silenced" etc...) the discourse and understand underlying patterns, assumptions, etc.
In short, we try to underdstand why and how certain "tribes" dance around certain "totems" and how this choreography can and does change over time.
/Tangent/There are different schools of thought in Organisation Theory that use these tools in different ways, there is a lot of squabbling going on and I find most of it ridiculous, but such is the world of modern Academe. I stopped taking it seriously several years ago/Tangent ends/
And even though in publications one is required to write in a sober and rather boring style I (and some colleagues) cannot help but sometimes smile at the mimetic forces at work that make us and the rest of the world think and speak in a certain way. Between ourselves we call those the "Waldorf and Statler moments", after the two cranky old guys in the Muppet Show.
It becomes a habit, and I deconstruct almost anything I come across, and it's great fun.
So what I did in that contentious first post (and I must say I have the impression few people really read it) was to hold a mirror to common discourse on depression/acedia.
I had no intention to poke fun at the condition.
I addressed the discourse, not the condition. But And I most certainly did not say it was a sin. I was actually quite surprised by the things people thought I had said. Some people really saw red, and became so emotional that they did not bother to really read what I had said.
You are of course right in saying that
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
most people of any particular group are apt to react negatively if an outsider deconstructs the group's culture--especially if it's done in front of them.
On the Ship, any mention of a particular group is apt to bring group members out of the woodwork--with their experiences, opinions, and corrections to others' posts.
-- this is precisely what happened. Well, I did not intend to offend, but it is clear that many people are uncomfortable with looking at themselves from the outside We all take our totems seriously, otherwise they would not be totems. And Samespeak and Samethink are powerful totems indeed.
I suppose I transgressed a Taboo.
And to quote Evensong: quote:
Depression is a bit of sacred cow topic when it comes to rational discussion on the ship because too many shipmates suffer from it and it pushes lots of emotional buttons.
.
Indeed.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
I think you need to get back to basics and try to recall that people are individuals with feelings.
And maybe you need to go back and read your own words dispassionately if you really believe that you have been misunderstood.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Well, I did not intend to offend, but it is clear that many people are uncomfortable with looking at themselves from the outside
Er... that's not a problem. What is a problem is being looked at in a condescending, analytic sort of way as if we're nothing more than a case study - and your making it explicitly clear in your post above that's how you regard people.
We're not here for you to practise your analytical skills on, though we can't stop you doing that. If you want to approach the boards as an interesting sociological experiment with yourself as a trained observer who is by implication free from and above all these petty emotional inconveniences, dispassionately analysing, noting and commenting on people's emotional reactions, we can't stop you doing that either. But please don't be surprised if we aren't impressed by it, and call you on it.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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The Phantom Flan Flinger
Shipmate
# 8891
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
It becomes a habit, and I deconstruct almost anything I come across, and it's great fun.
I'm glad we provide you with a source of fun. To some people, it's not a bit of fun, it's some ill-informed idiot passing judgement.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Well, I did not intend to offend,
Well, you did.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
but it is clear that many people are uncomfortable with looking at themselves from the outside We all take our totems seriously, otherwise they would not be totems. And Samespeak and Samethink are powerful totems indeed.
WTF does this even mean?
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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/
Posts: 1020 | From: Leicester, England | Registered: Dec 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
what I do is called "Discourse Analysis", but my using that term can be misleading, because among sociologists many associate this method with a Foucauldian stance, which I most certainly do not share. My own research approach is called "critical realism".
As to methods, I mix based on the sort of empiria available to me in the field: participant observation wherever possible, and open, unstructured interviews, inviting people to engage in "storytelling".
Mind-fuck™* much?
*ask Fritz
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
I think you need to get back to basics and try to recall that people are individuals with feelings.
This.
I have never suffered from depression (and never want to!)
Have you ever suffered form depression or 'akedia', Desert Daughter?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
[QUOTE}
1. ... It becomes a habit, and I deconstruct almost anything I come across,
2. .. and it's great fun.
3. ... but it is clear that many people are uncomfortable with looking at themselves from the outside We all take our totems seriously, otherwise they would not be totems. And Samespeak and Samethink are powerful totems indeed.
I suppose I transgressed a Taboo. [/QUOTE]
1. I'd suggest that it is well past the time to break the habit before it bites you hard. Try deconstructing yourself. You simply come across as yet another academic specialist presuming to persuade the rest of us to conform to your world view.
2. I don't think anyone else is laughing - and if you find this that risible you really have no right to be reporting on people's lives.
3. Some self analysis here would be very helpful. Why is it that you are seeking a special pleading ... "I didn't mean it that way...?" I've news for you: intention is generally trumped by description, form of expression or delivery.
Perhaps another trip into the desert to reflect on being a self centred, self deluded tub of lard would be appropriate
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Well, I did not intend to offend,
The decent thing to do in such circumstances is to apologize and not compound your error by saying things like
quote:
it is clear that many people are uncomfortable with looking at themselves from the outside We all take our totems seriously, otherwise they would not be totems.
Playing with the "totems" of hurting people, and flinging it in their face, is inhumane. It is not the behavior of a civilized person. It is assholic in the extreme. You are a nasty person and not fit for decent society. Fuck you.
[ 09. February 2014, 15:33: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Mind-fuck™* much?
-quite. I don't take it very seriously, either. It's a game. Academics do get paid for it. Personally, I wouldn't mind if tomorrow the government stopped all funding of this sort of stuff. At the risk of infuriating a different group of people I'd say that most of the research going on in this field is a lot of totally useless crap. But some of it is interesting, and, as I said, fun. Don't tell me nobody else studies people and their ways. Some people study, and comment upon, others' dress, say. And they are not always charitable either.
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Have you ever suffered form depression or 'akedia', Desert Daughter?
contrary to many people on the ship for whom this appears to be natural, I do not like to publicly comment on, or much less discuss,my personal ailments or the lack of them. I only speak for myself when I say that I don't think it is appropriate.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Try deconstructing yourself.
I do that all the time. It's sometimes amusing, sometimes less so. I do not take myself, my job, and the world in general, very seriously. But I try to be very aware of when I am culturally conditioned, and where I am "authentic", so to speak.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
You simply come across as yet another academic specialist presuming to persuade the rest of us to conform to your world view.
Yes, I am aware of that. Except that I don't try to persuade anyone. I merely voice my views, like everyone else.
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Perhaps another trip into the desert to reflect on being a self centred, self deluded tub of lard would be appropriate
Oh, please. Do you, -and some previous posters- really derive pleasure from throwing out these insults?
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Mind-fuck™* much?
-quite. I don't take it very seriously, either. It's a game.
There's a name for people who make a game out of hurting others. It's not a nice name. Did you shoot puppies as a child?
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Do you, -and some previous posters- really derive pleasure from throwing out these insults?
The irony here would be delicious if it weren't so painful. How dare you accuse others of deriving pleasure from insults?
[ 09. February 2014, 15:46: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Have you ever suffered form depression or 'akedia', Desert Daughter?
contrary to many people on the ship for whom this appears to be natural, I do not like to publicly comment on, or much less discuss,my personal ailments or the lack of them. I only speak for myself when I say that I don't think it is appropriate.
An interesting and very telling answer.
I wonder where you would get your material from if others followed your lead on this?
The Ship is a community of people, not an academic exercise. If you don't agree have a wander round All Saints (or Heaven or the Circus).
[ 09. February 2014, 15:58: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The Ship is a community of people, not an academic exercise.
But it can be that and a public forum, can't it?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
The Ship is a community of people, not an academic exercise.
But it can be that and a public forum, can't it?
Of course it can.
But Desert Daughter has come unstuck because she's forgotten that behind every post there is a living, breathing, feeling person.
I remember, some time ago, s/he said s/he was an extreme introvert, so s/he probably doesn't interact much IRL away from work situations. But I don't see this as any excuse for writing hurtful, thoughtless, careless posts. Especially about such a difficult and painful topic.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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