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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Desert Daughter, you spout the most arrogant crap sometimes
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
Don't apologise, that's what I was saying! At least applied to Open Theism and Process Theology. But I wasn't (for the record) saying I agree with the stance.
I think one of the main differences is not only how OT and PT define God's Being against other schools such as Thomism, but also how they define God eternity. For OT and PT, God's eternity is seen as an unending duration of time, both forwards and backward. For Thomism, God exists beyond time in an 'eternal now' - which is another reason why God can't change. Apologies - I strongly suspect I'm teaching my Grandmother to suck eggs. I just find typing the stuff out helps me think things through.
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
I think you are confusing both being true, with both being the same thing.
Bingo. I wasn't commenting on the correctness of Evensong's theology, I was commenting on her inability to grasp that subject-in-object isn't the same thing as object-in-subject.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I don't know what heresy I might have been spouting, but I once burbled in my high school confirmation class that I thought God was never-changing and ever-changing-and I used the ocean as a metaphor. The ocean is always the ocean, but it is also always moving, striking the shore, changing the beach, pulling stuff back into itself,claiming life, generating it--always changing. The Pastor just looked at me like, maybe Cromwell had the right idea about heretics, and went on as if I had said nothing.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That is just so LUTHERAN of you. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I don't know what heresy I might have been spouting, but I once burbled in my high school confirmation class that I thought God was never-changing and ever-changing-and I used the ocean as a metaphor. The ocean is always the ocean, but it is also always moving, striking the shore, changing the beach, pulling stuff back into itself,claiming life, generating it--always changing. The Pastor just looked at me like, maybe Cromwell had the right idea about heretics, and went on as if I had said nothing.
I love that Kelly. If it is heresy I may have to start a cult.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
There's gotta be a name for it. Every time I think I have evolved some great new idea, it turns out some joker scribbled it down on some scroll sometime in the year 294 or something.
[ 18. February 2014, 09:06: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I don't know what heresy I might have been spouting, but I once burbled in my high school confirmation class that I thought God was never-changing and ever-changing-and I used the ocean as a metaphor. The ocean is always the ocean, but it is also always moving, striking the shore, changing the beach, pulling stuff back into itself,claiming life, generating it--always changing. The Pastor just looked at me like, maybe Cromwell had the right idea about heretics, and went on as if I had said nothing.
That's very nice, Kelly. I remember a long time ago coming up with the idea that the ocean is there because of me, and I am here because of the ocean, and I was told in quite a friendly way (this is the C of E!), that that wasn't particularly Christian. OK, fair enough.
Anyway, I came back to it years later, and still believed it, and realized, that I wasn't particularly Christian! So everything turns out OK in the end.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
There's gotta be a name for it. Every time I think I have evolved some great new idea, it turns out some joker scribbled it down on some scroll sometime in the year 294 or something.
Even this.
"The ancients stole all my best thoughts."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
There's gotta be a name for it. Every time I think I have evolved some great new idea, it turns out some joker scribbled it down on some scroll sometime in the year 294 or something.
Sounds like Palamism to me (unchanging ocean - essence, waves of activity - energies), hence medieval and not necessarily a heresy for RCs, whereas strict orthodoxy for the Orthodox.
But perhaps you would enjoy some Sufi poetry along those lines: here. (IMHO, Sufism is the best Islam has to offer, in particular concerning literary output.)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
There's gotta be a name for it. Every time I think I have evolved some great new idea, it turns out some joker scribbled it down on some scroll sometime in the year 294 or something.
You aren't the only one to complain about such things. All my best lines...
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
In the immortal words of one of my favourite bands:
"You're not the first to think that everything's been thought before."
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Very Ecclesiastes.
Got a mate doing a PhD on originality in art and how it is still possible. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
I think you are confusing both being true, with both being the same thing.
Bingo. I wasn't commenting on the correctness of Evensong's theology, I was commenting on her inability to grasp that subject-in-object isn't the same thing as object-in-subject.
The distinction was irrelevant to my point that God exists in the universe . Obviously you failed to grasp the point and went on a random pedantic tangent instead.
I hope you feel better now you got that off your chest.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The distinction was irrelevant to my point that God exists in the universe .
You probably shouldn't say things you know aren't true just to make some other, tangentially related point. Word to the wise, and all.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
I think you are confusing both being true, with both being the same thing.
Bingo. I wasn't commenting on the correctness of Evensong's theology, I was commenting on her inability to grasp that subject-in-object isn't the same thing as object-in-subject.
The distinction was irrelevant to my point that God exists in the universe . Obviously you failed to grasp the point and went on a random pedantic tangent instead.
I hope you feel better now you got that off your chest.
So the distinction EXISTS then. Even though it might have been irrelevant to the voices in your head. You know, the ones you were talking to instead of having a conversation with actual Shipmates.
Glad we cleared that up.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
That is just so LUTHERAN of you.
just wanna clarify--what's the Lutheran bit, me laughing at the stake burning or being a PITA in general?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Laughing at the stake burning.
And FUCK Emerson. Just FUCK him.
[ 18. February 2014, 18:12: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Sorry, no can do. I'm just not that in to him.
LC doesn't go for guys that bony.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
I hunted for some Emerson quotes on the sea/ocean but he doesn't seem to have been ahead of Kelly on that. He did say:
The universal does not attract us until housed in an individual. Who heeds the waste abyss of possibility? The ocean is everywhere the same, but it has no character until seen with the shore or the ship. Who would value any number of miles of Atlantic brine bounded by lines of latitude and longitude? Confine it by granite rocks, let it wash a shore where wise men dwell, and it is filled with expression; and the point of greatest interest is where the land and water meet.
The Method of Nature, 1841
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That.. that is actually pretty close to what I meant.
Seriously, FUCK him! ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
If you want to stand on the shoulders of giants, then you first have to climb them. If you stand on their ground and compare heights, then you will come up short.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I'm 5'3'', I'm gonna come up short no matter what. Let me sulk in peace.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
The distinction was irrelevant to my point that God exists in the universe .
You probably shouldn't say things you know aren't true
I didn't.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
So the distinction EXISTS then.
Not in this case, no. Mousetheif presented it as some kind of distinction and I explained it was a false one.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Even though it might have been irrelevant to the voices in your head. You know, the ones you were talking to instead of having a conversation with actual Shipmates.
I'm sorry you didn't notice mousetheif's distinction was superfluous. I could have explained it but I thought it was obvious.
But hey, I guess it isn't if you go for the watchmaker God.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
So make up your mind: superfluous, or wrong?
And no, if I say the universe subsists IN God, that's hardly the watchmaker. Do you read what other people write in order to understand, or only in order to attack?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So make up your mind: superfluous, or wrong?
Irrelevant would be a better word.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
And no, if I say the universe subsists IN God, that's hardly the watchmaker.
Quite. Which is why I don't understand why you raised the point in the first place.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So make up your mind: superfluous, or wrong?
Irrelevant would be a better word.
Yes. Because irrelevant and superfluous are completely different things.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Quite. Which is why I don't understand why you raised the point in the first place.
Yes. But rather than admit you didn't understand and ask for clarification, you went on the attack, and made YOUR lack of understanding out to be my fault.
You'll make a great priest.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Quite. Which is why I don't understand why you raised the point in the first place.
Yes. But rather than admit you didn't understand and ask for clarification, you went on the attack, and made YOUR lack of understanding out to be my fault.
Funny that. I thought the same thing about you.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So make up your mind: superfluous, or wrong?
Irrelevant would be a better word.
Yes. Because irrelevant and superfluous are completely different things.
And it's another pedant moment! They are totally not completely different things.
Both denote something being unnecessary to the point at hand!
FFS
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So make up your mind: superfluous, or wrong?
Irrelevant would be a better word.
Yes. Because irrelevant and superfluous are completely different things.
And it's another pedant moment! They are totally not completely different things.
Both denote something being unnecessary to the point at hand!
FFS
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
But it was you who suggested "irrelevant" might be a better word than "superfluous and wrong"!! (Which I think may have been the point orfeo was making, using that hitherto-unknown concept of "sarcasm").
If they're not different, why is "irrelevant" better than "superfluous"? Why change it? Why... but... don't understa... cannot compute...
Sits in a corner gibbering happily to himself
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Don't worry. The conversation has lost any value it once had...
Most definitely TIME TO DIE!
[ 21. February 2014, 12:30: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) She didn't pick up the sarcastic criticism of her not picking one of the 2 words offered and saying instead that a synonym would be a 'better' word.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
She didn't pick up the sarcastic criticism of her not picking one of the 2 words offered and saying instead that a synonym would be a 'better' word.
Please tell me you did not find this surprising.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
She didn't pick up the sarcastic criticism of her not picking one of the 2 words offered and saying instead that a synonym would be a 'better' word.
Oh he's so very clever!
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
She didn't pick up the sarcastic criticism of her not picking one of the 2 words offered and saying instead that a synonym would be a 'better' word.
Please tell me you did not find this surprising.
A little. But the really great part was her attempt to answer back.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Thanks. I thought it was good too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Evensong, are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
-- right. Since you've clearly moved on to many a tangent from the OP, and even found a new victim unto whose head you shall now crap, could I please ask you to move out of my thread and establish your own corner of hell?
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
You went away too long. Evensong is the ultimate Hell Thread Squatter.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You went away too long. Evensong is the ultimate Hell Thread Squatter.
That's quite cute.
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
-- right. Since you've clearly moved on to many a tangent from the OP, and even found a new victim unto whose head you shall now crap, could I please ask you to move out of my thread and establish your own corner of hell?
Now we've dispensed with the shortcomings of scientisms's materialistic reductionism, the floor is all yours sweetheart.
Go for it ....
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You went away too long. Evensong is the ultimate Hell Thread Squatter.
I don't think I have heard a good arguments for a criminal trespass law before.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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