|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Desert Daughter, you spout the most arrogant crap sometimes
|
Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Don't tell me nobody else studies people and their ways. Some people study, and comment upon, others' dress, say. And they are not always charitable either.
Yes, and they're not usually liked very much. Nor are people who make a habit of laughing at others.
It's your life, but nobody likes to be made to feel as if they're some kind of creature in a zoo, where the attitude is "come and look at the funny monkeys". Whether you like it or not, these are discussion boards, there is a sense of community, the threads are mostly about discussion and conversation, and inevitably some kind of spin-off into community can and does happen. People do volunteer experiences, and share them: that's a normal part of human inter-relations.
You've said in previous posts a while ago, if I remember correctly, that you regard yourself as particularly introverted? Either way, I really think you'd benefit from leaving aside the detached, academic approach, and making a simple, unpretentious effort to get to know some real people. Of course they're going to be flawed and imperfect. And so are you. But I think it would do you the world of good to attempt to have an ordinary, non-academic conversation. Ideally a face-to-face one. It might make you a little more human.
And if you think I think you're coming across as suffering from being alone too much and its consequent detachment, yes, I do, that is how you're coming across from where I'm standing.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
|
Posted
DD wrote : quote:
In short, we try to underdstand why and how .....
See I hate it when shipmates do that.
"We think ......" is a subtle form of ganging up. Adding weight to your argument because there is a imagined many of you who think this way . Just make it what YOU think and remember that there are people at the other end for who it is not an intellectual exercise
A loled when you stuck your stick in the hornets’ nest of depression and now only the smoke of a deserved apology is going to work.
[ 09. February 2014, 17:11: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
[QUOTE]But I don't see this as any excuse for writing hurtful, thoughtless, careless posts. Especially about such a difficult and painful topic.
DD has not chosen to reveal whether she has ever been afflicted with depression or not. (I'm referring to DD as "she" because it seems likely that someone choosing Desert Daughter as a screen name will not object, even though I realize DD could be a man).
Nonetheless, even if she has never had to fight depression-mild or severe-there is no guarantee she won't. Indeed, if she lives long enough she will almost certainly taste the age-related form, where the pleasure goes out of the things which once made life worth living. When her world slowly, almost imperceptibly turns sepia, perhaps she will have a better idea of why people have found her remarks so abysmally out of bounds.
To address Evensong's post for a moment, I'm not certain I know of a single person fighting depression who thinks pharmacology is the only tool they need. Rather like migraine sufferers, they learn their own specific triggers and how to avoid or ameliorate them. They often have a more disciplined thought process and higher degree of self-knowledge than those who have never suffered.
--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
DOEPUBLIC
Shipmate
# 13042
|
Posted
DD, I am sure you are capable of deducing that not everything that fits in a box is a box. Also that 1% on a spreadsheet can be 100% a person's life.
My further observations are posted on the original thread.Where people may wish to reconvene.
Posts: 2350 | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
Let me start this out by saying I'm one of the number. The Maudlin Majority™ on this thread. I'm diagnosed with depression and anxiety due to MS and I hate it. a lot. So, while mine is a little different, I do get it.
Desert Daughter has been insensitive. From my reading, it's insensitivity based on ignorance, not malice. As you all know, this happens a lot.
What also happens a lot is people carrying the particular weight we all carry take everything extremely personally. I speak from experience, here.
What i'm seeing in this thread is a whole giant helping of over-reaction.
Let's face it: everyone has something that makes us "different" - even DD probably has a misshapen head or a third thumb or the communication skills of a gnat. We all have our bears to cross. It does the community of Depressives no service whatsoever if every time someone says something out of ignorance we start squealing like we're bleeding to death. "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"
No. Someone who has never dealt with clinical depression will not understand. How is it even possible to put this giant sensation of drowning in viscous, dirty crude oil into words?
So often in our modern world I see people screeching about how they're not understood. Seems to me the first step is to step the fuck out of your own myopic little world and rather than demand to be understood, do your best to understand. Someone says something plug-ignorant, take a moment before you scream and consider where the fuck it's coming from. Can you help educate? can you shine some light into the dark cave they're speaking from?
or would you rather do what we all do so well and curl up into a little ball, lick the fresh addition to the wounds, and bite every hand that comes near?
Because the reality is, no one is ever going to get an understanding on how best to communicate and cope with our little Tribe of The Black Dog if we can't get over ourselves and actually attempt to communicate with the outside world.
When a dog is seriously injured, they are embodying the pain. They can't recognize help, or friendship, or understanding. they are just living the pain. and any open hand is just more possible pain, so they lash out. They run and hide. they bite those who would help them. At some point, the one who would help them is going to give up risking their own blood spillage and think, "fine. fucking suffer!" and walk away.
Depression is such a severe and relentless form of pain that we become that dog. Every offer of help is attacked. every attempt at understanding is met with great yowls and whines. It does us all no favors.
I see a lot of whining, and howling, and biting going on on this thread. But this is an opportunity, my fellow freaks. Doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to correct misunderstandings and be patient with the people who, in fact, do not understand, but could potentially be educated?
Frankly I'm sick to death of putting up with all the stereotypes and misconceptions around depression. All you bitchy little things are not helping.
Get off my team.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Desert Daughter has been insensitive. From my reading, it's insensitivity based on ignorance, not malice. As you all know, this happens a lot.
Yes, but what I think is rubbing salt in the wounds here is that ignorance has been trying to pose as intellectual superiority. There were some interesting ideas in there somewhere, but the sneer got in the way. And I don't mean that it prevented people hearing what DD was trying to say; I think a whole bunch of half-baked crap got mixed up with some genuinely worthwhile points for debate - all muddled together in a failed attempt to impress. Greater humility would have brought more clarity - and I can say this because I can recognise so many of my own failings there.
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
what I think is rubbing salt in the wounds here is that ignorance has been trying to pose as intellectual superiority. There were some interesting ideas in there somewhere, but the sneer got in the way. And I don't mean that it prevented people hearing what DD was trying to say; I think a whole bunch of half-baked crap got mixed up with some genuinely worthwhile points for debate - all muddled together in a failed attempt to impress. Greater humility would have brought more clarity - and I can say this because I can recognise so many of my own failings there.
Most ignorance is remarkably un-self-aware.
Sounds to me like a place to start.
But, you know, calling names and throwing toys might work, too.
--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
quote:
1. It's a game.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Perhaps another trip into the desert to reflect on being a self centred, self deluded tub of lard would be appropriate
2.Oh, please. Do you, -and some previous posters- really derive pleasure from throwing out these insults?
1. Do you honestly see dealing with people's lives and commenting on it, as a game? If you do, then you really are disconnected from reality - life is a serious business.
2. No pleasure at all - simply gratuitous advice which may or may not be considered helpful.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to correct misunderstandings and be patient with the people who, in fact, do not understand, but could potentially be educated?
What, exactly, have you read by DD that indicates that she is in the least open to being educated on this subject? When called on it, she doubles down and insults us for not being able to see oursels as others see us. These are not the behaviors of a person who is merely ignorant but not malicious, and yet willing to be corrected.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
|
Posted
There is a kind of willed, academic ignorance which feels a hell of a lot like malice and to which the only cure is howling etc. until this shatters the academic cocoon and focusses the relevant individual's attention on the fact that there are real people and raw emotions involved. Calm reasoning is no substitute for rawness under such circumstances, since it serves to reinforce the intellect.
--------------------
Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
I hoped that the term ignorance could have given people a clue as to its nature. Ignorant people ignore things. Sometimes one can reason with them but mostly they will ignore that too.
I have some two-by-four that might help. Not as punishment you understand, just to get their attention. A rustic clue bat if you like.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
|
Posted
comet, I would be genuinely interested in knowing why you think DD might be educable, given the manner in which she has already slagged off the entire American Psychological Association.
I'll admit that raised my eyebrows--it's not as though ethnography is considered a universally respected science.
--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
But, you know, calling names and throwing toys might work, too.
Certainly more fun.
I am not entirely disagreeing with your previous post, but QLib and mousethief have valid points in thinking DD not amenable to possible correction.
side note: It is rather amusing for the proponent of one soft science to so denigrate another.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
|
Posted
Is what someone says any less valid or worthy if it does not change the mind of the intended receiver?
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
AmyBo
Shipmate
# 15040
|
Posted
As a long-time lurker, I really do think that the depression-bashing assholes need it handed to them, since a lot of us black-doggers are lurkers. I first started reading the ship when I was recovering from a really bad episode, and every Boogie-type post that was supportive balanced off the fuck-ups spouting off about suck it up.
I tried replying on the Purg thread, but couldn't keep the "fuck you DD," out of it. I get that a lot of it is just not understanding the difference between a well person with a bout of sadness and a completely cut-off, physically unwell person sitting at her desk with a knife in her hand, but when that second person can be reading DD's fucking bile, it's time for her to crawl back under the rock she came out from.
Posts: 122 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I see a lot of whining, and howling, and biting going on on this thread. But this is an opportunity, my fellow freaks. Doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to correct misunderstandings and be patient with the people who, in fact, do not understand, but could potentially be educated?
Frankly I'm sick to death of putting up with all the stereotypes and misconceptions around depression. All you bitchy little things are not helping.
Get off my team.
No. And no.
There are places to educate, places to keep smiling and talking when people’s malice and ignorance gets behind your eyes and makes you want to lay down and cry. On the Ship, there’s Heaven and Purg.
But sometimes all the smiling and talking gets too much, especially when people don’t listen. And here, in Hell, there’s a place to howl.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
I see a lot of whining, and howling, and biting going on on this thread. But this is an opportunity, my fellow freaks. Doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to correct misunderstandings and be patient with the people who, in fact, do not understand, but could potentially be educated?
Physician, heal thyself. In what way are you being patient with your "fellow freaks" who are not as enlightened as you are, and react to DD's cruelties with pain and vituperation and not with your studied aplomb?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Comet--
FWIW, people have explained to and tried to educate DD.
The glitch seems to be that she's stuck looking through a particular academic lens that even she thinks is crap, and not perceiving that her words and actions have real effects on real people--who are not her interview subjects.
DD--
Maybe you can turn your kaleidescope a bit, and see the *people* that the data is *about*??
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
|
Posted
In my lifetime, there's been a lot of change in discourse about cancer. Why don't we all have a good laugh about that?
That had actually been all I intended to say, but having thought about it further, there may well be an interesting discussion to be had on, say, what the consequences would be of cervical cancer being moved out of the cancer space and into the STD space. And perhaps on a discussion forum dedicated to epidemiology this could be discussed relatively bluntly. But on a general interest forum, most people posting would have some consideration for the feelings of people affected by the cervical cancer and would not see the question of how we talk about it as a purely academic discussion.
And most definitely not as something to be made fun of.
[ 10. February 2014, 12:29: Message edited by: Erroneous Monk ]
--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
I'm reminded of gastric ulcers. You know, those things that, for goodness knows how many years, sufferers were told were stress-related. And therefore told to go and relax and have less stress.
Instead of being given antibiotics to get rid of the Heliobacter pylori that actually do cause gastric ulcers. Heck, they may well be encouraged to grow and multiply by the presence of stress, but if someone nowadays decided to ignore the modern discoveries about what's actually going on and to go back to a 'traditional' understanding of the condition, they'd be stared at by the medical profession with amazement.
If someone wants to ignore all the modern knowledge about what goes on with neurotransmitters and biochemistry during depression, allow me to stare at them with amazement.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
|
Posted
On the "Relatives" thread Comet wanted me to quit being such a delicate flower and stop thinking it was all about me and now she wants us all to stop whining and howling and throwing toys and just try to educate ourselves about how to get better gosh darn it!
Any minute now she's going to link us to a cheery version of Put on a Happy Face.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
On the "Relatives" thread Comet wanted me to quit being such a delicate flower and stop thinking it was all about me and now she wants us all to stop whining and howling and throwing toys and just try to educate ourselves about how to get better gosh darn it!
Any minute now she's going to link us to a cheery version of Put on a Happy Face.
Not here. "Calling Twilight to All Saints"?
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
QLib
Bad Example
# 43
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm reminded of gastric ulcers. You know, those things that, for goodness knows how many years, sufferers were told were stress-related. And therefore told to go and relax and have less stress.
Instead of being given antibiotics to get rid of the Heliobacter pylori that actually do cause gastric ulcers ....
If someone wants to ignore all the modern knowledge about what goes on with neurotransmitters and biochemistry during depression, allow me to stare at them with amazement.
I'm not sure the implied analogy is apt, because although certain brain events are implicated in depression, I don't think that means we know that the cause of depression rests in the biochemistry of the brain, even though we have some insight of that kind into Seasonal Affective Depression. Nor are we particularly clear about cures for depression, though we can relieve some of the symptoms with varying degrees of success in some (most?) sufferers.
--------------------
Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm reminded of gastric ulcers. You know, those things that, for goodness knows how many years, sufferers were told were stress-related. And therefore told to go and relax and have less stress.
Instead of being given antibiotics to get rid of the Heliobacter pylori that actually do cause gastric ulcers ....
If someone wants to ignore all the modern knowledge about what goes on with neurotransmitters and biochemistry during depression, allow me to stare at them with amazement.
I'm not sure the implied analogy is apt, because although certain brain events are implicated in depression, I don't think that means we know that the cause of depression rests in the biochemistry of the brain, even though we have some insight of that kind into Seasonal Affective Depression. Nor are we particularly clear about cures for depression, though we can relieve some of the symptoms with varying degrees of success in some (most?) sufferers.
No, that is true. But we are part of the way there to understanding, and we are further along than than we were.
In the last year or two I remember seeing a media report that someone had worked out why some antidepressants take a couple of weeks to work, ie what's happening during that period.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
If your mind arises from your brain, when your mind is depressed then your brain must be in some way different from times when your mind is not depressed. There is a correlation / cause issue. Conversely, people treated with talking therapy have been shown to have changed brain chemistry as they recover.
Causation is probably a complex combination of factors, but even if cause was purely psychological - that would not make depression somehow less of a significant illness / disability.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In the last year or two I remember seeing a media report that someone had worked out why some antidepressants take a couple of weeks to work, ie what's happening during that period.
That sounds interesting but personally I'd settle for an antidepressant that actually worked without putting my life in danger or having embarassing side effects.
Huia - not holding my breath.
--------------------
Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
]Conversely, people treated with talking therapy have been shown to have changed brain chemistry as they recover.
Really?! It is bloody hard to investigate human brain chemistry. What would we be talking about, MR spectroscopy? I'm too lazy to PubMed this, any refs at hand?
(It is also far from easy to investigate animal brain chemistry, technically speaking, and it is also difficult to establish decent animal models of depression - still, that sort of thing presumably can be done, and probably has been.)
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I'll dig out the reference for you when I get home, it was a small study but it makes sense to me for the reasons I explained above.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
This, is all I can find rapidly - link is embedded in the article (I appreciate is not a neurotransmitter study) - but I am sure I have seen a similar paper on serotonin levels.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
This is a good summary and includes some findings form SPECT analysis.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
|
Posted
OK--this is not related to depression, but it does illustrate just how delicate the balance of brain chemistry can be.
My partner is diabetic. In the 12+ years we have lived together, he has had some trouble with low sugars. Normally, he feels this and is able to treat before anyone would know. I know him well enough I can usually sense the subtle changes in voice and behaviour that tell me his sugar is dropping. Twice in those 12 years, though, as he has been sleeping, his sugar has dropped dangerously low. That will wake him up, but he has no real idea where he is. He is unable to balance himself, he does not know who I am, and he can even lose the use of language. He can start having involuntary muscle movements, and if it were allowed to go far enough he would undoubtedly go into convulsions.
We keep a glucagon kit handy, and on those two occasions when I've used it he hasn't even realized he was injected. Within ten to fifteen minutes, he is "back"--one minute there is no sense that the injection is working, and the next he is speaking and knows what is going on. The personality comes back as quickly as flipping a light switch. Even after all these years, that moment of immediate return to lucidity amazes me.
There is undoubtedly a lot we don't know about brain chemistry, but I am (anecdotally) convinced our personalities and minds are more dependent on it than we usually are willing to believe.
--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
There is undoubtedly a lot we don't know about brain chemistry, but I am (anecdotally) convinced our personalities and minds are more dependent on it than we usually are willing to believe.
Our minds and personalities are entirely dependent on brain chemistry, for the simple reason that brain chemistry is what those things are.
That doesn't mean we understand more than a fraction of the chemistry involved, of course.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
There is undoubtedly a lot we don't know about brain chemistry, but I am (anecdotally) convinced our personalities and minds are more dependent on it than we usually are willing to believe.
Our minds and personalities are entirely dependent on brain chemistry, for the simple reason that brain chemistry is what those things are.
Since when did you become a materialist? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
You don't believe in free will then?
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
There is undoubtedly a lot we don't know about brain chemistry, but I am (anecdotally) convinced our personalities and minds are more dependent on it than we usually are willing to believe.
Our minds and personalities are entirely dependent on brain chemistry, for the simple reason that brain chemistry is what those things are.
Since when did you become a materialist?
You don't believe in free will then?
Actions are a consequence of free will. One's mind and personality underlie that.
Evensong, that was a "doh" moment, even by your standards.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
How can action (mind and personality?) be a consequence of free will if its nothing but chemicals making you act (or defining your mind and personality)?
My mind and personality most certainly are not just chemistry.
[ 11. February 2014, 13:30: Message edited by: Evensong ]
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
There is undoubtedly a lot we don't know about brain chemistry, but I am (anecdotally) convinced our personalities and minds are more dependent on it than we usually are willing to believe.
Our minds and personalities are entirely dependent on brain chemistry, for the simple reason that brain chemistry is what those things are.
Since when did you become a materialist?
You don't believe in free will then?
Actions are a consequence of free will. One's mind and personality underlie that.
Evensong, that was a "doh" moment, even by your standards.
Not at all. Marvin is talking nonsense. And what he is saying does indeed lead to determinism.
--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Our minds and personalities are entirely dependent on brain chemistry, for the simple reason that brain chemistry is what those things are.
Since when did you become a materialist?
You don't believe in free will then?
It's almost like you think the brain chemistry that controls what you think and do is something independent of "you", to the extent that it can rob "you" of agency. But the brain chemistry is "you", and therefore "you" are the one controlling what you think and do!
As far as I'm concerned that is free will.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
|
Posted
No, your brain chemistry is NOT you. Category error.
What you are - your being - is not simply what you are made of.
--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
How can action (mind and personality?) be a consequence of free will if its nothing but chemicals making you act (or defining your mind and personality)?
My mind and personality most certainly are not just chemistry.
You know this how?
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
No, your brain chemistry is NOT you. Category error.
What you are - your being - is not simply what you are made of.
What is it then? There's nothing else there...
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
AdamPater
Sacristan of the LavaLamp
# 4431
|
Posted
Strict materialism mandatory now? Really? Why? Exactly.
--------------------
Put not your trust in princes.
Posts: 4894 | From: On the left of the big pink bit. | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
Wow! We've got people here who reckon we know how the mind works. Shit, we aren't even sure how the brain works, except that it doesn't give the same results twice.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I think equating experience with chemical interactions isn't very useful, actually. It tends to erase experience, and then we are into a complete cul de sac.
In order to talk about our experiences, thoughts, feelings, and so on, we can discuss them as is, without having to say, oh they're chemicals.
In fact, of course, nobody does this, as life would be impossible.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
How does acknowledging the brain works on a mechanical level erase experience? Simply because I know that careening around curves on a track at high speed releases adrenalin and dopamine to stimulate areas in my brain does not then mean I cannot say it is fun.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
How does acknowledging the brain works on a mechanical level erase experience? Simply because I know that careening around curves on a track at high speed releases adrenalin and dopamine to stimulate areas in my brain does not then mean I cannot say it is fun.
But then you are not erasing experience. But some materialists seem to do this, by arguing for example, that there is no self, or the self is an illusion, or that our thoughts have no meaning. But this is fairly extreme, and I would have thought, unlivable. I suppose you end up having to deny intentionality.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I also think that showing biological change that correlates with something, doesn't show it causes it.
London taxi drivers brains physicially change to accomodate their learning of the routes around London over at least two years. The changes in the brain do not cause them to learn routes, the need to store the information they are learning causes the brain to adapt to what they are doing.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
But saying experience is stored mechanically does not address that question at all.
Addresses to quetzalcoatl though DT answered better
[ 11. February 2014, 16:53: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
How can action (mind and personality?) be a consequence of free will if its nothing but chemicals making you act (or defining your mind and personality)?
I don't think the chemicals cause us to act. They enable us to act.
That is why depression can be so very debilitating - because the brain chemicals are often out of kilter.
I am sure most of this discussion can be filed under 'nobody knows' but Martin has a point.
It's hard to imagine our 'selves' free of the bodies which make us us.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
I've seen some data that indicate the at the level of neurons, when a chemical or ion is present, the cell membrane develops channels to receive them. Further, we have neurons which mirror what someone else's neurons are likely doing. The topic was pain, but the fundings are extremely interesting. They then showed how altering thoughts and perception altered the neurology. (This comes from "Explain Pain" from the Neuro Orthpedic Institute out of Australia.)
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think equating experience with chemical interactions isn't very useful, actually. It tends to erase experience, and then we are into a complete cul de sac.
In order to talk about our experiences, thoughts, feelings, and so on, we can discuss them as is, without having to say, oh they're chemicals.
In fact, of course, nobody does this, as life would be impossible.
Of course we can discuss these things without having to talk about the basic chemical interactions that are driving them. That's what we do with virtually everything.
I mean, nobody talks about muscle movements in terms of the biochemical processes that cause them to happen at a cellular and sub cellular level, but when it comes down to it they're just a bunch of chemical reactions causing muscle cells to contract.
It's the same with everything we do, from washing our hands to driving a car. We don't have to talk about the molecular-level science that's going on, but going on it is.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
