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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Disrespecting belief
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
This Easter I have become significantly aware of the aggressive stance taken by many, particularly in social media, but also in the newspapers and radio towards the Christian aspect of Easter. Many seem to take a perverse delight in rubbishing something they obviously know nothing about judging by the ignorant remarks. How do we as Christians deal with this? Should we ignore it, or do we defend our faith? Maybe in defending we are contributing to the denigrators' fun. And yet, if we say nothing many undecided people will not hear the real Christian message.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
These people are trolls. And the proverb is, do not feed the trolls. That's what they want.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Specific remarks? Or is this a "War on Easter" thread?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
You expected something different from nonbelievers?
1 Corinthians 1:18-25
Christians believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. He rose from the dead.
How does someone respectfully disagree with that?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Um, fairly easily.
I understand you believe this, I do not.
Simple and plain, but not at all derisive.
Do you find this disrespectful?
I find painting all those who do not believe as you do a bit disrespectful.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Um, fairly easily.
I understand you believe this, I do not.
Simple and plain, but not at all derisive.
Do you find this disrespectful?
I find painting all those who do not believe as you do a bit disrespectful.
You have not met many of the Bill Mahers of this world . It goes way beyond just that these people "don't believe as we do"
[ 19. April 2014, 04:27: Message edited by: SeraphimSarov ]
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
You have not met many of the Bill Mahers of this world . It goes way beyond just that these people "don't believe as we do"
I understand there are some who are antagonistic, Mere Nick seemed to employ a broader brush.
To be fair, ISTM, Maher's diatribes are fueled by those Christians who do not respect the beliefs of others.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
You have not met many of the Bill Mahers of this world . It goes way beyond just that these people "don't believe as we do"
I understand there are some who are antagonistic, Mere Nick seemed to employ a broader brush.
To be fair, ISTM, Maher's diatribes are fueled by those Christians who do not respect the beliefs of others.
No ISTM, he has a very cynical hatred of religious belief in general.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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StevHep
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# 17198
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Posted
Before I became ill I used to comment quite a lot on the Guardian site. In many ways it functions as Atheism Central. ISTM that a lot of the anti-Christian hostility was more fuelled by personal bitterness and anger than by a rational assessment of the arguments offered or of the role of the Church and Christians in the world.. In that sense they are impervious to argument merely based on facts or reasonable propositions. All one could offer would be a positive faith in contrast to the negative one which they held.
I was always conscious though that many more people read comments than wrote them. They became my target audience rather than my immediate interlocutors. What impact that all had on anyone's belief systems is pure guesswork.
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My Blog Catholic Scot
http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
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Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
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Posted
Some people believe, some don't. There are aggressive types on both sides, and it's doubtful that they change anyone's mind (mostly they make their opposition feel even more self-righteous). Let it go.
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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
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Tulfes
Shipmate
# 18000
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Posted
Has it not always been thus?
The old secular advice is to avoid discussion of politics or religion. Good advice for ease of social intercourse.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Feb 2014
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Maybe you haven't come across some of the diatribes I have seen. They are not simply comments disagreeing with what I believe (which I can accept), but foul mouthed accusations and insinuations eg that God came and arranged for Mary to be raped so that she could give birth to a bastard and then have her bastard killed etc etc. The instances of such comments are legion. I don't intend to list any more, many of which are worse than that one. Is it the anonymity of social media that gives people licence to behave in this way or is society changing? I am not asking people to believe what I believe, but just to be respectful in their arguments.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
How do we as Christians deal with this? Should we ignore it, or do we defend our faith? Maybe in defending we are contributing to the denigrators' fun. And yet, if we say nothing many undecided people will not hear the real Christian message.
The Lord Jesus has just been flogged, abused, spat on and left to die impaled on the Roman gibbet. Tomorrow He astounds His followers by rising from the dead.
Does He require us to defend Him from persecutors ? I think not .
I know any attack on our personal faith is hurtful . The irony for Christianity as a whole is that much of the hurt dealt to Christians comes from other Christians .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I have to say, I've noticed this here in Ireland over the last year too. I don't know why it is over the last year in particular, but there has certainly been an increase of attacks on what is perceived as being 'Christian'. And that's the point; 99% of the time its people arguing something out of total ignorance, and as a wise person once said, you cannot reason with the stupid. There is an element of trolling too. It makes for great news, it fills a letters page, creates activity on an online news/media site, sells newspapers and makes people watch the programme. Personally, I've stayed out of it - although when I watched a 'revelatory' style documentary (on St Patrick's day) on the heresy of St Patrick belief in the imminent return of Christ from a supposedly 'top' historian who had just recently translated his Confessio, I was somewhat tempted to point out just how unscholarly he was being. But in the end something inside me thought that just maybe he was manipulating the media to sell his new book. Sad that a scholar should do this, but that's the world we live in today.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Maybe you haven't come across some of the diatribes I have seen.
No, I obviously haven't. Not often. And I bet I spend more time online than you and probably talk to a lot more atheists and anti-Christians and pagans, in real life as well as online.
The last big spate of really nasty stuff of the sort you describe that I saw wasn't from atheists at all, but from self-described liberal Christians on an Anglican mailing list who were usi g that sort of language to express their hatred and prejudice against evangelicals and fundamentalists (which I suspect was more of a class snobbery thing than theological, but as they were mostly upper-middle-class Australians and Americans they were indoctrinated into believing they had no social class - just as most white Englishmen think, or used to think, that we have no nationality or race). Knocking the orthodox Christian idea of God as a "cosmic child abuser". That was years ago. You still see echoes of it on is Ship and I am perhaps over-sensitised to it. (Doesn't help that, being a looney lefty, I read many of the opinions and attitudes of self-described "liberals" as right-wing soft-conservatism)
But the atheists and pagans I read online these days? Mostly cheap shots that run off like water from a duck's back. Usually the best they come up with is stuff we sorted 1500 years ago.
If you want nasty public discourse there is far more to be sickened by from racists and nationalists and the far right an there is from those guys.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
bib wrote:
quote:
foul mouthed accusations and insinuations eg that God came and arranged for Mary to be raped so that she could give birth to a bastard and then have her bastard killed etc etc
I'm gonna speculate that those aren't "accusations and insinuations", because the person in question doesn't actually believe that God did those things, even if for literary effect they phrase it as "Yeah, God came down to Earth and did blankety-blank to some teenaged girl. Merry Christmas, everyone!!"
Rather, the posters are letting you know how the central narratives of Christianity sound to them. Essentially, they're saying "Virgin Birth? Sounds like rape to me. Crucifixion? Uh, sending his own son to a gruseome death. Glad I don't believe any of THAT garbage."
Now, speaking as a non-Christian, I think the rape and filicide readings are a little bit of an oversimplification(or even a distortion) of the themes. Nevertheless, I do understand how some people could read the stories that way. It wouldn't be totally out-of-left-field for someone to hear about God giving up his only son for crucifixion and thinking "Hmm, how is that different from filicide?"
So, you might want to take thes unpleasant encounters as an opportunity to reflect upon how the Christian story might appear to non-believers, and ask yourself WHY it might appear that way, and what you can possibly do to correct the misperception. Even if the ones making snide remarks on the Guardian are beyond reach.
[ 19. April 2014, 10:48: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
To be both fair and honest, several of Christianity's core beliefs -- conception by spirit, virgin birth, resurrection from death, etc. -- seem preposterous to those outside that religious fold, simply because these are events which, AFAWK, simply don't occur within normal human experience.
People who find tales of alien abduction incredible often mock those tales. People who think they've been abducted are no doubt upset by such a reception for their harrowing experience (or "experience," if you prefer). People who find the idea of reincarnation incredible may mock Hinduism; Hindus are probably upset by this.
Further, Christians who find the 6-day Creation story in Genesis a lovely, poetic metaphor "for "what really happened" sometimes discuss Christians who take said story as absolutely true with fairly savage mockery.
Sometimes I wonder if the human capacity to believe things for which there is little concrete evidence is our downfall. But then I remember how much I enjoy reading fiction.
Our real downfall, then, is twofold: first, the idea that we should somehow all agree to share one particular set of beliefs (as this seems to validate our own beliefs). Second, our apparent unwillingness to believe and let believe. When all's said and done, which of us is free of preposterous beliefs, even if it's only that someone we've fallen head over heels in love with is "perfect?"
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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
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Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
That's fine, Porridge, and I have a lot in agreement with you. But I suspect the bad-mouthing is largely on social media such as Tw*tter, and drive-by sites like the comments section of the Grauniad's "Comment is Free". It's called Comment is Free for a good reason - no sane person would give you good money for it.
There's been a shift since the day's ken reports (and I think he's right, there was a time not so long ago when I used to run into the same thing.) But not so much now. I suspect sites like this would be pretty intolerant of the crusaders from wherever they appear - that certainly seems to be the way that more balanced discussion fora work nowadays. And I'm not just talking about quasi-religious sites.
But other social media are far more suited to trolls, who I suspect have migrated. For example, if you want the imbecile end of social justice discussion, then go to Tumblr.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Last year, when discussing Islam with someone, we remarked that the Muslims believed that Muhammad ascended to heaven from Jerusalem. He said with a smirk "You don't actually believe that, don't you?"
I said, "It's not my place to comment on the merit of another religion. Muslims believe that this happened and I respect their belief."
If Christians want respect, they ought also to respect people of other faiths.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Who is/was Bill Maher? Should I have heard of him? Is he a sort of American Polly Toynbee?
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson
So, you might want to take these unpleasant encounters as an opportunity to reflect upon how the Christian story might appear to non-believers, and ask yourself WHY it might appear that way, and what you can possibly do to correct the misperception.
Yebbut, we can't desiccate the Christian message by removing all the bits unbelievers might find difficult to believe, or even, in some cases - far be it from me even to hint at such a terrible possibility - convenient excuses for not believing.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But the atheists and pagans I read online these days? Mostly cheap shots that run off like water from a duck's back. Usually the best they come up with is stuff we sorted 1500 years ago.
Dead right. Virtually everything I hear from them, my reaction is, "Do they really think this is original material? We've been hearing this for centuries."
Rowan Williams was spot on when he said that Richard Dawkins was becoming "the latest atheist pub bore." Clearly, Dawkins is not an isolated case. I don't care that people are slagging off my religion. But nobody has a right to be that boring. There should be a law.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
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Posted
I would agree with the OP that in my short lifetime there has been a shift from Christianity being seen as 'benevolently irrelevant' (see the Vicar of Dibley - started in 1994) to something that should be opposed, and removed from the public sphere. (This is something that really confuses me - is it an outworking of secular/Protestantism, that religion can ever be a private belief?)
OK, a lot of this comes from the wickedness of the Guardian's website, but it's more or less a *daily* occurrence there. And the commentators agree with this general milieu:
- Religion should be removed from the public sphere.
- Religious schools should be closed or at least not partially funded by the state.
- Established religion makes the non-religious second rate citizens
- Christians believe in fairy tale nonsense, and their intellect should be questioned.
- Religious beliefs are for children and the mentally unhinged.
- There is no afterlife.
- There is no such thing as sin.
- The Church has only caused pain and strife.
- Christ (probably) did not exist.
There's a lot to argue in the details of this, but it certainly makes for an incredibly different view of 'mission and evangelism' from only say 10 or 20 years ago. I really don't think that the churches have woken up to this shift.
x
AV
[ 19. April 2014, 12:20: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The Guardian's always been rather anti-Christian, hasn't it? But left-leaning, middle class Christians read it anyway. There's not much of an alternative. More generally, I think the rise of New Atheism (for want of a better term) has created a more stridently anti-Christian voice in the public arena. That was to be expected I think; you can't have increasing disengagement from and ignorance of Christianity without a bit of that.
We Christians should count our blessings, though, because things could be much, much worse. It irritates me when British Christians in particular complain about their faith being dismissed. Are we really meant to expect nice treatment from a non-believing society? Maybe it's confusing for some of us, because the PM and others talk about living in a 'Christian country', while at the same time a public and active faith is increasingly marginalised. But increasing secularisation has had its effect over many decades (if not a whole century by now), yet there are still some Christians who act surprised if their profession of faith is criticised or belittled. Where have they been?? Maybe there needs to be an educational campaign so that more Christians will begin to realise how marginal their faith really is!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
When all's said and done, which of us is free of preposterous beliefs, even if it's only that someone we've fallen head over heels in love with is "perfect?"
Absolutely spot on , as was your whole post .
Just as an example . Take our collective beliefs over death , as this is something of a unifying reality for each of us . Some believe death is the end others believe it is not . Both of these are equally preposterous when you really think about it.
Do atheists truly believe our existence serves no purpose whatsoever other than to serve itself ? Or that when we, and our planetary home, are vapourised by the death of the sun it will be as though we never existed ? Or that even if some of us manage to escape and colonise another planet then all preposterous beliefs will be left behind ?
I doubt this much more than ever I doubt God.
I suppose many of us still like to think of the Christian faith as ranking higher than just one in a collection of potty beliefs . Changes to the blasphemy laws means we're no longer afforded that luxury.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
God came and arranged for Mary to be raped so that she could give birth to a bastard and then have her bastard killed
The thing is, that is one way to interpret the passages, especially out of context. In fact, PSA does tend to argue for this interpretation.
The truth is that Mary wasn't raped - she gave consent. Maybe she was abused, but that doesn't seem to be the situation in context.
The truth is that Jesus was a bastard. But he was killed by human agents who could not accept his presentation of God to them. And/or God allowed him to die, because in doing so the triune God could experience the whole anguish of humanity, and so reach out to us. And a whole lot of other atonement theories.
I always thing that there is an opportunity to explore what is being said in these situations. That is why so much theology is not as simple as some would have it.
[ 19. April 2014, 14:31: Message edited by: Schroedinger's cat ]
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
This Easter I have become significantly aware of the aggressive stance taken by many, particularly in social media, but also in the newspapers and radio towards the Christian aspect of Easter.
Stay off of social media? It sounds flip, but I stayed off of Facebook for Lent, and it was really healthy (I have a few friends who are perfectly lovely people in person but unrelenting tools online). So much so that I will probably try to continue, just checking in to see if I have any new messages. It also will help you avoid the kind of story where they turn a somewhat interesting discovery into click-bait by throwing in a tangential Biblical angle and suggesting that it might "rock Christianity to its core" or something like that. (The last one I saw was the study where some scientists proposed a later date for the domestication of the camel, which was probably an interesting agricultural anthropology discovery, but got presented in the media as "proof that domestic camels didn't exist when the Bible says they did!")
I know a guy who is a professor of religion, and who has done a lot of work translating various gnostic texts. He likes to call the annual Newsweek or Time cover where they publish some "shocking revelation" gleaned from a Gnostic gospel as the "Easter surprise." It's usually something he studied a long time ago, presented without the kind of context which might let anyone know why it says what it does.
Beyond that, just accept it as part of the modern world and press on with the business of trying to love everybody.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson
So, you might want to take these unpleasant encounters as an opportunity to reflect upon how the Christian story might appear to non-believers, and ask yourself WHY it might appear that way, and what you can possibly do to correct the misperception.
Yebbut, we can't desiccate the Christian message by removing all the bits unbelievers might find difficult to believe,
Um, that is not what he said.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
or even, in some cases - far be it from me even to hint at such a terrible possibility - convenient excuses for not believing.
This implies that Christianity is the default and believing other is lazy, deviant and or shirking responsibility. Yeah, no one would utter snark towards that attitude.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Who is/was Bill Maher? Should I have heard of him? Is he a sort of American Polly Toynbee?
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson
So, you might want to take these unpleasant encounters as an opportunity to reflect upon how the Christian story might appear to non-believers, and ask yourself WHY it might appear that way, and what you can possibly do to correct the misperception.
Yebbut, we can't desiccate the Christian message by removing all the bits unbelievers might find difficult to believe, or even, in some cases - far be it from me even to hint at such a terrible possibility - convenient excuses for not believing.
Who is Polly Toynbee? Should I have heard of her? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Isn't she that former SDP agony aunt?
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
SeraphimSarov asked - quote:
Who is Polly Toynbee? Should I have heard of her? [Smile]
Isn't she that former SDP agony aunt?
You seem remarkably well informed...
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
Who is Polly Toynbee? Should I have heard of her?
As you live California, no, no reason at all. She's of solely local significance. She's a regular columnist in one of our newspapers and a convenient talking head for our television channels to get in from time to time.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
[qb]
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson
So, you might want to take these unpleasant encounters as an opportunity to reflect upon how the Christian story might appear to non-believers, and ask yourself WHY it might appear that way, and what you can possibly do to correct the misperception.
Yebbut, we can't desiccate the Christian message by removing all the bits unbelievers might find difficult to believe,
Um, that is not what he said.
Correct. I don't mean get rid of the belief neccessarily(*). Just try to imagine how it might sound to a non-believer, as a way to re-think how you respond to their objections.
(*) Though, truth be told, were I a Christian, I think I would consider the Virgin Birth, at least, to be pretty negotiable as a basic tenet.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Sometimes I wonder if the human capacity to believe things for which there is little concrete evidence is our downfall.
I believe lots of things with little concrete evidence. Which seems a reason for not disrespecting others who's views are equally ridiculous.
quote:
... the idea that we should somehow all agree to share one particular set of beliefs ....
You could go back to Plato: there is only one Truth and since the True is the Good those who don't know the True don't know the Good.
The dangerous step is to claim to have gone from belief to knowledge, since then you feel you should help those who are too benighted to recognise the truth and stubbornly resist your efforts to explain it to them.
But I fall into the obvious contradiction: I know that nobody really knows and all are just believing. Which convinces me I don't really know.
I'd suggest that though the truth is quite useful sometimes we shouldn't make a fetish of it. I can't remember who has/had the sig: "It's better to be kind than right" but I'm with them.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Reading the comments attached to this article, it would seem that Guardian readers don't evince much more love for Islam than they do for Christianity.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
This Easter I have become significantly aware of the aggressive stance taken by many, particularly in social media, but also in the newspapers and radio towards the Christian aspect of Easter. Many seem to take a perverse delight in rubbishing something they obviously know nothing about judging by the ignorant remarks. How do we as Christians deal with this? Should we ignore it, or do we defend our faith? Maybe in defending we are contributing to the denigrators' fun. And yet, if we say nothing many undecided people will not hear the real Christian message.
Not feeding the trolls does not and has never worked - but [citation needed] on your actual claims. On the other hand I'm reminded of the old adage "A class war is what happens when the lower classes start shooting back".
I have never heard an atheist be as offensive to Christianity as your mainstream Christian evangelist is about atheists. They'd only start being that offensive when they started arguing that all Christians deserved to be tortured simply by virtue of being Christians. (And normally that no one really believed in God - they were just lying about it). Tim Minchin's puerile Pope Song is less offensive than the average "good news" that we are all people who deserve to be burned. (And that's without getting into obviously offensive evangelism).
As for objections that other people are being mean about Christians I believe that Jesus said something about motes and beams.
As for the "real Christian message", what is it? Jesus said some good things - but right now there are only two areas where Christians are out of step with mainstream values. The first is on the subject of supernatural beliefs. The second is that Christianity is the last respectable bastion of homophobia - something that even Justin Welby accepts that the young think (with good reason) is akin to racism.
If you want the "real Christian message" to get talked about, try reclaiming it then talking about it rather than objecting when people push back against the messages Christians are actually spreading.
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The Guardian's always been rather anti-Christian, hasn't it? But left-leaning, middle class Christians read it anyway.
I don't think The Guardian is especially anti-Christian. Yes, it has Polly Toynbee, but even she is aware that there are left-leaning middle class Christians reading her. The Independent, when I last read it about ten years ago, was rather more committed to the idea that religion was outdated and the religious would probably not be reading it.
The Guardian Comments Threads aren't so much anti-Christian as anti-everything. Whatever the subject of an article, the Comments Threads will be dominated by trolls.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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SeraphimSarov
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
Who is Polly Toynbee? Should I have heard of her?
As you live California, no, no reason at all. She's of solely local significance. She's a regular columnist in one of our newspapers and a convenient talking head for our television channels to get in from time to time.
Irony
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
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SeraphimSarov
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# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The Guardian's always been rather anti-Christian, hasn't it? But left-leaning, middle class Christians read it anyway.
I don't think The Guardian is especially anti-Christian. Yes, it has Polly Toynbee, but even she is aware that there are left-leaning middle class Christians reading her. The Independent, when I last read it about ten years ago, was rather more committed to the idea that religion was outdated and the religious would probably not be reading it.
The Guardian Comments Threads aren't so much anti-Christian as anti-everything. Whatever the subject of an article, the Comments Threads will be dominated by trolls.
A good rule is to never trust the Guardian on religion and the Telegraph on politics
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
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Amika
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Do atheists truly believe our existence serves no purpose whatsoever other than to serve itself?
This one does, although she's not greatly joyous about it.
quote:
Or that even if some of us manage to escape and colonise another planet then all preposterous beliefs will be left behind ?
Not that one though. There will never be an end to 'preposterous beliefs' unless humans reach some other stage of evolution (or so I believe... ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ).
[ 19. April 2014, 21:38: Message edited by: Amika ]
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que sais-je
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
Not that one though. There will never be an end to 'preposterous beliefs' unless humans reach some other stage of evolution (or so I believe... ).
But evolution only favours survival. Obviously some preposterous beliefs don't but it isn't clear that religion is one of them.
If religious people had higher birthrates (or were seen as more desirable mates) than atheists, they could be the next stage of evolution ....
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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jrw
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Posted
Perhaps Christians need to talk more about Jesus and less about Christianity (whatever that is).
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PaulBC
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Posted
O.K. so some silly people are against belief . Nothing new there But they react to what Christians say/do especially those who say we/I have all the answers . Just pat the commentators on the head and send them to bed after a cup of cocoa. We as believers have to exhibit the virtue of charity, or love if you will.
As for those who say God killed his Son , or allowed Mary to be raped that's trash talk and should be ignored. What Mary did in letting God work through her was exceptional. And as I am an adoptee Jesus & I have that in common.
Let us all rejoice in the victory that is Easter, ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
Justinian wrote: quote:
If you want the "real Christian message" to get talked about, try reclaiming it then talking about it rather than objecting when people push back against the messages Christians are actually spreading.
I couldn't agree more. And I wish more people would bear it in mind.
There's plenty of evidence that "knocking copy" serves to devalue your own position. And constant negativity will just turn people off listening to you. Ultimately, if it continues, people just lose confidence in the entire discourse itself.
This does of course apply to both sides.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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ToujoursDan
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Posted
This thread reads like both sides are competing for the gold in the Oppression Olympics. Good grief.
As a creedal Christian, I agree with many of my atheist friends that much of what is said publicly on behalf of Christians is cringe worthy. It doesn't contain Christ. It's irreconcilable with his vision in the Sermon on the Mount. It's ignorant, unkind, disrespectful and makes me embarrassed to be a believer. It's often so bad that not only do I not wear my faith on my sleeve, but I take time to get to know people before I admit I have any faith at all. Much of what is said publicly deserves the kind of mockery the Mahers and Dawkins dish out. Most of the time I agree with them, sadly.
Most of this is due to the media, no doubt, who thrive on controversy. The mainline churches are simply too boring to be in the media much. No one cares if the Methodists or Lutherans opened another food bank or quietly lobbied a city council for another after school drop in centre for inner city students. They care whether a looney-tunes pastor burned a Qu'ran on You Tube, or said that an earthquake in Chile or tornado in Oklahoma was caused by the gays or the atheists. That media environment makes it pretty difficult for mainstream Christians to reclaim the message from the fringe. The media isn't, and has never been, even-handed on religion or anything else. That doesn't sell papers.
I don't expect non-believers to be respectful of Christianity. Too many Christians don't do a good job of earning respect anyway. We're not the victims. We're not oppressed.
[ 20. April 2014, 01:37: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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mousethief
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Maybe you haven't come across some of the diatribes I have seen. They are not simply comments disagreeing with what I believe (which I can accept), but foul mouthed accusations and insinuations eg that God came and arranged for Mary to be raped so that she could give birth to a bastard and then have her bastard killed etc etc. The instances of such comments are legion. I don't intend to list any more, many of which are worse than that one. Is it the anonymity of social media that gives people licence to behave in this way or is society changing? I am not asking people to believe what I believe, but just to be respectful in their arguments.
I'm sure for every anti-Christian screed like this that you've seen, I could find two nastygrams by Christians. You're focusing on the one because your ox is being gored. There is plenty of hate going the other way as well. In a sense it's a self-perpetuating cycle. But we Christians have the most to lose -- probably few people become Christians because atheists are nasty. Plenty of people probably become atheists because of nasty Christians. The best thing we can do is to withdraw our claws.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Justinian
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Justinian wrote: quote:
If you want the "real Christian message" to get talked about, try reclaiming it then talking about it rather than objecting when people push back against the messages Christians are actually spreading.
I couldn't agree more. And I wish more people would bear it in mind.
There's plenty of evidence that "knocking copy" serves to devalue your own position. And constant negativity will just turn people off listening to you. Ultimately, if it continues, people just lose confidence in the entire discourse itself.
This does of course apply to both sides.
I've just realised it's more than a year since I've been accused of being a Christian plant in an atheist community. I should do something about that.
As for the Oppression Olympics, this stuff is a run-off at regionals level.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
As for the Oppression Olympics, this stuff is a run-off at regionals level.
And the first rounds ( Christians v. Christians, Jews v. Jews, Atheists v Atheists) had such promise....
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Do atheists truly believe our existence serves no purpose whatsoever other than to serve itself?
This one does, although she's not greatly joyous about it.
Been there myself . Can't say believing in God has exactly wiped away joylessness, safe to say it's a different kind of joylessness from the one which I experienced as an atheist.
I have absolutely not the foggiest idea what my, or humanity's ultimate purpose might be . It's just that believing in the existence of a God ,(whatever that might be), means a purpose *does* likewise exist . Given that definition of logic , even if it's wobbly, joy does eventually get the upper hand .
Coming back to disrespecting belief , isn't a Christian's prerogative to 'turn the other cheek' ? None of us are especially good at that . I would also join with other contributors in giving practical advice Christianity, namely -- if you can't take it, don't dish it out .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
God bless Bill Maher.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38
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Posted
Justinian wrote: quote:
I've just realised it's more than a year since I've been accused of being a Christian plant in an atheist community. I should do something about that.
Ha ha! But seriously it's something I struggle with (i.e. being Mr. Critical) - too much and people do indeed tune out. Which is good, because the rare times that the opposite happens is when things can get very ugly indeed.
quote:
As for the Oppression Olympics, this stuff is a run-off at regionals level.
I'm not even sure I'd grace it with that level of excellence, though I suppose it depends where you are. Which was rather the point of my earlier post.
But I genuinely think that matters have improved on fora that are conducive to proper discussion. And indeed that social media like Twitter and Facebook are increasingly crap and attract the socially manipulative. "Like" buttons? - *spit* - I've bailed out completely, and my life has not folded.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jrw:
Perhaps Christians need to talk more about Jesus and less about Christianity (whatever that is).
Christianity is about Jesus. It's about his life, death and resurrection. It's about his teaching and example, which show us God the Father. If Christ lives in our hearts, the message of God's love should come through in our words and actions, so that others see God in us. It's up to all of us to watch ourselves, and to respond to the negatives by standing firm with the truth, in love.
For too long, the polite 'don't mention religion or politics' rule has kept people silent. As a result, there is a great deal of ignorance about both and urban myths abound in Britain.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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