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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Is music really all about sex?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Article on the BBC website sporting the same title as this thread suggests this explanation of the origins of music in light of the questionably-related finding that women like more complicated composers during their cycle. Um, okay.
Anyway, why did our ancient forebears (Jubal or somebody else) invent music? Does it confer any evolutionary advantage? Or is it just pleasant?
[attempted a link edit to see if it will make it UK-readable]
[ 24. April 2014, 19:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
What do you mean 'During their cycle'? during mensturation?
So what about women who have no 'cycles'?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
My first reaction is that were the conclusions of the study accurate, it would be Beethoven rather than Barry White used as a trope.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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StarlightUK
Shipmate
# 4592
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Posted
At the risk of sounding simplistic I think music was "invented" simply because it makes people feel good. It can lift or mirror the emotions and it is simply pleasant to listen to.
Posts: 76 | From: Brighton | Registered: Jun 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
The link is not accessible from the UK, best I can tell.
I think music probably arose as an accidental cross-over in the brain, probably having to do with the development of language. A bit like flight in birds possibly has an accidental origin in temperature control mechanisms. However, I expect it soon enough came under evolutionary pressure due to sexual selection on the ability to please and excite. Just like the early feathers came under evolutionary pressure due to natural selection on gliding.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
I think women invented singing.
It would be unwise to sing while hunting Sabre-Toof-Tigers as it would either alert them to your presence or cause them to turn around and hunt you instead.
OTOH maybe songs were invented by men on the way home with aforementioned STT; to advertise their Mighty-Hunter-ness to all and sundry.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
I think it was Gene Simmons who said that anyone who tells you they got into rock music for some other reason than to get laid is lying through their teeth.
There are other theories which suggest that music developed as a way of connecting people. And connecting as a group is an instinctive survival tool- look at my dog, who is obviously hard wired to want to be with the pack, so that she gets very upset if she is not.
My thought is that music has a general power to connect people emotionally, and different kinds of music have specific powers to connect us in specific ways. One of the two articles mentioned Gregorian chant as a counter to the theory that music is about sex. But Gregorian chant has profound effects on the chanters, bringing them close together in a meditative relaxed state. There is still an advantage to that state, even if it is not a reproductive advantage. Other music might have a reproductive origin- drawing a connection to someone is part of sex. So I would say that music can be about sex, but it isn't all about sex- it is about facilitating emotional connections between people.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I think women invented singing.
I would bet that mothers discovered fairly early that singing can be a bonding tool with an infant.
And you might not sing while actively hunting, but if you want to create a team mentality on the way to the hunt, a song will do the trick. I remember walking to a football game with a bunch of people who were rooting for the same team. All it took was one person to start to sing the college fight song, and everyone joined in. Talk about a team building activity. (Anthropologists would probably also say that we were trying to intimidate the enemy by sounding as united and big as possible.)
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Surely singing is just a version of talking - talking with tonality. It helps to engage with ones emotions if you talk using variation in tone and level etc. It does not seem a long way from basic tonal grunting to music, in a rudimentary form.
Because music engages with emotions, it will naturally be associated with stronger emotions - and sex is one area of strong emotions.
So I think there is a link, but it does not mean that all music is about sex. All good music is about emotion, intensity, passion.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Surely singing is just a version of talking - talking with tonality. It helps to engage with ones emotions if you talk using variation in tone and level etc. It does not seem a long way from basic tonal grunting to music, in a rudimentary form.
Because music engages with emotions, it will naturally be associated with stronger emotions - and sex is one area of strong emotions.
So I think there is a link, but it does not mean that all music is about sex. All good music is about emotion, intensity, passion.
To your first point-- a lot of children's songs in many cultures have elements of word play, rhythmic eccentricity, pronunciation tricks, and so forth. For that matter, so do a lot of adult songs. Play is the basis of all learning. ( look it up-- it is.) So, I have wondered if song in particular evolved from a natural impulse to play with words and speech patterns while learning how to talk.
Think of the three year old that will chant a word over and over when they learn it. " Bowling ball! Bowling ball! Bowling ball!"
( this brings to mind another function of song-- storing community stories in a memorable way. Most folk songs are simply stories retold with rhythmic and rhyming cues that make them easy to remember.)
To your second point-- yes. All creative expression has a function of helping us manage emotions-- whether we are experiencing something too sad for mere words or too joyous for mere words. This is why art is such a huge part of early childhood education practice.
As for sex-- personally, I think saying song evolved from sex impulses is putting the cart before the horse. Song is song, but when we are looking to attract someone, we try to attract them with things that will impress them. That could be athletics, that could be basket- weaving-- or that could be song.
On that note-- while some people have always sung better than others, the relegation of most singing to the uniquely talented is a fairly recent thing-- for most of history, if you were part of a community, you sang, talent or no. Singing is a way of unifying a community.
[ 24. April 2014, 16:57: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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lapsed heathen
Hurler on the ditch
# 4403
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Posted
quote:
Song is song, but when we are looking to attract someone, we try to attract them with things that will impress them. That could be athletics, that could be basket- weaving-- or that could be song.
Kelly I am regretful that no one ever tried to seduce me with basket weaving, I'mm picturing some variation of that scene in Ghost.
Of course music is about sex, it's about lots of things and all at the same time. Hell, sex isn't even just about sex but it is about sex as one of it's functions.
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"We are the Easter people and our song is Alleluia"
Posts: 1361 | From: Marble county | Registered: Apr 2003
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
This thread is reminding me of the scary videos and books from the early 1980s about how evil rock music was. I distinctly recall it being explained that "rock and roll" referred to the movements of entwined bodies and nothing musical at all.
If music be the food of love...
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
All art -- all creativity -- essentially is about sex. Music is just a subset.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Problem with studies is that they are studies. First, participants do not necessarily behave and think as they might if they were not aware of being studied. Second, parameters need to be well controlled so that one is not merely confirming one's hypothesis and that the question being studied is truly the question being answered.
ISTM, this test fails at at least two of those.
quote:
Originally posted by lapsed heathen:
Kelly I am regretful that no one ever tried to seduce me with basket weaving, I'mm picturing some variation of that scene in Ghost.
Hmmm, I am thinking elbows and needles flying around your, erm, protuberances, might dampen your ardor.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
All art -- all creativity -- essentially is about sex. Music is just a subset.
No, no it isn't. Yes, it can be used this way. And we humans are all about re-purposing and multiple goals.
Unless I am creating something for a paramour, sex is not on my mind. Creating is, relaxing is. Simply being is.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
So what about women who have no 'cycles'?
They get the bus.
The problem with music is, it can certainly arouse responses in a person that feel very like sex. Music can speed up my heart rate and breathing, and probably raise my body temperature and make me sweat. It can focus my attention almost to the exclusion of everything else and, by delaying its climax, make me inwardly beg for it. A friend who used to sing in the chorus with a major orchestra would sometimes describe a good performance as better than sex, and people knew exactly what he meant. (Nobody ever even said "honey, you're doing it wrong".)
It's frustrating that the good old BBC won't let its UK audience see the link in mousethief's OP, but I don't think music can be all about sex. Its origins are, as far as I'm aware, still a matter of speculation, and anyway it has too many other roles - mnemonic, community bond, religious. Anthony Storr, reviewing the then current opinions in his Music and the Mind (1992), says that some anthropologists (and composers, such as Stravinsky), think that music began as a religious phenomenon - an add-on to "mundane" language that allowed language to become a communication with the divine. I don't know if such ideas still have any currency.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
All art -- all creativity -- essentially is about sex. Music is just a subset.
No, the sex drive, art and music are expressions of the creative urge, which can manifest itself in a thousand different ways. In its broadest sense the creative urge is what's behind the blossoming of spring flowers, as much as the pleasure of creating pottery, composing a violin sonata, or a small child blowing vigorously and tunelessly but with huge enjoyment into a tin whistle.
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
Not all music is about sex. Some of it's about drugs.
Sorry.
It is a shame we can't see the article - and I have rootled around to try to read it, but can't. However I'm always sceptical of leaps made from "Women like this at this point in their menstrual cycle" to anything too far removed from basic reproduction-related stuff.
I'm inclined to agree with Kelly about community uses of music - as a way of remembering stories and other important things, and of keeping workers working well together (sea shanties spring to mind). I'd like to think that people developed music because they could.
Thinking back to soothing babies - there is something soothing about the vibrations in the chest produced when you sing to a baby you're holding. Singing now comes naturally when faced with a grumpy baby, like the baby two step rocking back and forth does. There's nothing remotely scientific about that though, it's just experience. And actually, I am soothed by singing to a crabby baby - singing makes the breathing slow down & gives something else to focus on besides just how mad the baby is driving you and how little sleep you've had.
It's also a lot of fun to sing filthy folk songs to babies too young to understand them....
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
Thinking back to soothing babies - there is something soothing about the vibrations in the chest produced when you sing to a baby you're holding. Singing now comes naturally when faced with a grumpy baby, like the baby two step rocking back and forth does. There's nothing remotely scientific about that though, it's just experience. And actually, I am soothed by singing to a crabby baby - singing makes the breathing slow down & gives something else to focus on besides just how mad the baby is driving you and how little sleep you've had.
Nearly wrote that myself.
In fact on one particularly stressful occasion I sang over and over The Skye Boat Song to my then 2 year old son. He lay on his bed sobbing "Don't stop, don't stop".
Of course he doesn't want to hear it ever again and even gets quite agitated if he happens upon it.
I questioned him and he could not explain and I certainly didn't fill him in on That Awful Day.(He is 27 now!)
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Here's a link to the article that appears to be the basis of the Beeb article.
I agree with the person above who said it's a ridiculous leap from "menstruating women have such-and-such a response to music" to "music was invented for sexual purposes" or however you want to phrase it. But I thought it would be interesting to discuss (and it has been so far) why music might have arisen in the first place. And as IngoB points out, once music existed, selection forces could act on it, and mold it in various directions.
Hell, it could have been invented as a way to keep bears from sneaking up on you while you're taking a crap.
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Rhythmic tapping and drumming on things probably played a role in the development of music too. Just sitting around the cave idly banging a stick on a rock, and getting a rhythm going. Then adding vocalizations to it, maybe even nonsense sounds, until suddenly you have a song.
edited to add: Of course it isn't all about sex. Nothing is all about sex. As someone pointed out above, even sex isn't all about sex. But music is very attractive in a mate.
[ 25. April 2014, 01:19: Message edited by: Nicolemr ]
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lapsed heathen:
quote:
Song is song, but when we are looking to attract someone, we try to attract them with things that will impress them. That could be athletics, that could be basket- weaving-- or that could be song.
Kelly I am regretful that no one ever tried to seduce me with basket weaving, I'mm picturing some variation of that scene in Ghost.
Of course music is about sex, it's about lots of things and all at the same time. Hell, sex isn't even just about sex but it is about sex as one of it's functions.
Well put. (RE: music)
And I know you are kidding, but attracting someone's attention doesn't need to be about full-on seduction, does it? It can just be about attracting their attention. You can achieve that with a shared interest in bottle caps. Or an Ethel Merman singalong, which has to be about the least seductive scenario I can think of. You can start with simple liking before you dive straight for seduction... right?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
All art -- all creativity -- essentially is about sex. Music is just a subset.
No, the sex drive, art and music are expressions of the creative urge, which can manifest itself in a thousand different ways. In its broadest sense the creative urge is what's behind the blossoming of spring flowers, as much as the pleasure of creating pottery, composing a violin sonata, or a small child blowing vigorously and tunelessly but with huge enjoyment into a tin whistle.
See? Ariel just gave me a creative orgasm without any sex involved whatsoever. As in YES!YES!YES! I agree!
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
...And I know you are kidding, but attracting someone's attention doesn't need to be about full-on seduction, does it? It can just be about attracting their attention. You can achieve that with a shared interest in bottle caps. Or an Ethel Merman singalong, which has to be about the least seductive scenario I can think of. You can start with simple liking before you dive straight for seduction... right?
Your Ethel Merman reference gave me flashbacks to Gay Piano Bars I Have Known.
The problem with the sexual selection is that you do stuff to increase sexual opportunity and you get distracted by the intrinsic pleasures of the stuff. "Just one more cave painting and I'll come to bed..."
While music can be about sex, it can be about many other things. Birds marking territory, political comments or simply feeling good in the shower.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
...And I know you are kidding, but attracting someone's attention doesn't need to be about full-on seduction, does it? It can just be about attracting their attention. You can achieve that with a shared interest in bottle caps. Or an Ethel Merman singalong, which has to be about the least seductive scenario I can think of. You can start with simple liking before you dive straight for seduction... right?
Your Ethel Merman reference gave me flashbacks to Gay Piano Bars I Have Known.
I knew someone would say that.
quote:
The problem with the sexual selection is that you do stuff to increase sexual opportunity and you get distracted by the intrinsic pleasures of the stuff. "Just one more cave painting and I'll come to bed..."
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
... not a problem, in my book. The more pleasure you can get from a variety of things, the less mopey you will be when you ain't getting any.
[ 25. April 2014, 04:39: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The original link is still not accessible in the UK, unfortunately. It comes from the BBC Worldwide service and isn't funded by the UK licence fee. So we're barred in the UK.
Thanks to mousethief for the alternative link.
B62, Purg Host
[ 25. April 2014, 05:38: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I agree the creativity comment. It's probably worth observing, additionally, that music may often have immense emotional power, linking its appreciation with experiences which have stirred us. For sure, there is very often a link with our passions, our joys and our pains.
There is a lovely series on BBC Radio 4, entitled "Soul Music", which has been excellent in exploring the staying power of many famous pieces of music. This week, it featured the beautiful and sad Welsh love song "Myfanwy". You don't need to understand the words to get caught up in this song.
[Lots of fine male voice choir versions on Youtube, but I rather enjoyed this duet plus male voice choir backing version of "Myfanwy" at a Charity event.]
[ 25. April 2014, 06:16: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
In its broadest sense the creative urge is what's behind the blossoming of spring flowers...
Of course, the blossoming of spring flowers is completely and exclusively about sex!
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Perhaps we can ask this the other way around?
If music like this is all about sex, then what is sex all about?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
If music like this is all about sex, then what is sex all about?
Soaring high. Being taken out of oneself and close to God. Connecting with timeless fulfillment and joy.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Is anyone here a fan of PRAIRIE HOME COMPANION? Once its creator, Garrison Keillor, noted that if birdsong could be translated into English, it would run something like this: "Hey baby! lookin' hot there, mama. You want some? Somma what I got, huh? huh? Oooh, you walk like you want it! Lookit this, I got it right here, you want somethin' sweet?" (in a deep thuggish tone of voice, underlined by a bass guitar)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Male birds are not singing for the females, they are singing to keep their territory and warn other males off.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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IconiumBound
Shipmate
# 754
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Posted
As to the origin of music, I remember hearing that the inventor of musical notation was Pythagoras (of theory fame) who discovered the scientific relation of musical eight note octaves.
Before that ?
Posts: 1318 | From: Philadelphia, PA, USA | Registered: Jul 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Male birds are not singing for the females, they are singing to keep their territory and warn other males off.
It's both, depending on the bird and the song in question.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
It is still not an apt comparison, though.
If human song was limited to the same parameters as bird song, everything would be variations of Marvin Gaye and MC Hammer.
Though, MC does look a bit like this bird.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Male birds are not singing for the females, they are singing to keep their territory and warn other males off.
It's both, depending on the bird and the song in question.
( bird nut enters)
Or it could be a warning of intruder presence, or a discovery of a food cache, or a location song ( the lyrics of which would be , " I've been flying back and forth for an hour- where the hell are the other finches?"
Having said that, the bulk of what you hear at the beginning if spring is a bunch of sexual braggadocio and " stay the hell away from my nest!"
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
As to the origin of music, I remember hearing that the inventor of musical notation was Pythagoras (of theory fame) who discovered the scientific relation of musical eight note octaves.
Before that ?
Before that, people in Asia and parts of Africa were working off a five note scale-- complete with notation-- for centuries. If not millennia.
And it worked just fine-- really, all you need to do to convert a five note scale into an eight note scale is account for the three spaces in between the five notes.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
This is a great thread. Before we begin to wonder how music began, we need to know what music is. Someone or two people have already mentioned birds. We say they "sing" because the frequency of the noises they make are recognisable - often as quite remarkable bits of Beethoven!
But to another blackbird or another robin it's a clear and unmistakeable message - finely tuned through aeons of evolutionary development to enhance the bird's chances of passing on its genes. So in that respect, it's certainly about sex.
Perhaps all messages passed between animals are music - think of whales and dolphins.
Perhaps even the roars of lions and the clicking of beetles are basic music. Just different frequencies and rhythms which our own brains ignore because evolution just hasn't hard-wired them to pick up the meaning.
Perhaps language developed from music, rather than the other way around. We discovered that words could do a million more things than yells and cries and coos could. Though the yells and cries and coos would have been far more sophisticated in those far off days before language, when they mattered more.
I even have a rather sad inkling that music that makes me laugh or - more often -weep - is doing something only my subconscious brain recognises. I mean, the best way to ruin a song is to try to consciously analyse it. It's like everything else we do (I've been reading "Incognito" which a kind shippy linked to a while ago. Over ninety percent of what our brains are doing has been hard-wired over the millennia and our conscious brains just don't have any access to it.
So when I hear Vaughan-Williams I just lie back and think of England - or a misty memory of it, heard in a long-forgotten meadow under a soaring
skylark
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
As to the origin of music, I remember hearing that the inventor of musical notation was Pythagoras (of theory fame) who discovered the scientific relation of musical eight note octaves.
Before that ?
Pythagoras doesn't seem to have developed musical notation; he developed the system for expressing musical tones and intervals as ratios, but there's no system of setting down a piece of music there. He was very interested in acoustical phenomena, though, and the work with music was part of that.
The earliest example of musical notation that we have is from 2000 BC, in the form of a Sumerian cuneiform tablet. There are a very few pre-Christian Greek examples of notation, but nobody really knows how to interpret them.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Brenda Clough
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# 18061
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Posted
And I am old enough (I am sure others here are too) to remember when rock music was the epitome of evil, full of the jungle animal instinct that was going to send listeners into a state of mindless lust. Good times, good times...
And before that, ragtime was so unrespectable, played by black people and exciting uncouth feelings that decent people did not indulge in. And before that, OMG, the waltz! Clearly a metaphor for the unnameable, the man holding his partner in arms and (avert your eyes, impressionable people) moving rhythmically.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
But to another blackbird or another robin it's a clear and unmistakeable message - finely tuned through aeons of evolutionary development to enhance the bird's chances of passing on its genes. So in that respect, it's certainly about sex.
The OP seems to be saying that song is a way to signal fertility, though. So while all song might boil down to survival of the species, sexual activity is only part of what a species need to survive. Hence the variety of messages.
I find your argument for language evolving from music hugely compelling, though. It makes a lot of sense.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
As to the origin of music, I remember hearing that the inventor of musical notation was Pythagoras (of theory fame) who discovered the scientific relation of musical eight note octaves.
Before that ?
Music goes back much further;
Paleolithic Flutes may be 35,000 years old. You have to decide if you include Neanderthals.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
You have to decide if you include Neanderthals.
With a square in the act it can set music back to the caveman days.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
pimple wrote:
This is a great thread. Before we begin to wonder how music began, we need to know what music is. Someone or two people have already mentioned birds. We say they "sing" because the frequency of the noises they make are recognisable - often as quite remarkable bits of Beethoven!
Simon Conway Morris, the paleontologist, talks about that quite a bit, and argues that there is a kind of universal music, from which evolution selects. This is part of his discussion of convergent evolution, so that bird song, whale music, and human music, have converged on the same point.
Morris is a Christian paleontologist, (who famously worked on the Burgess Shale), and I'm not sure if he would go so far as to say that there is a kind of Platonic 'Ideal music', which evolution has access to. That seems rather speculative!
His popular book is 'Life's Solution', but he has more technical ones as well.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Because music engages with emotions, it will naturally be associated with stronger emotions - and sex is one area of strong emotions.
That's answered the question for me SC.
Taking my mind to a possible scenario around a Neanderthal/Early Homo-sap camp fire.......
They've been chewing on raw bones and tossing them on the fire , then someone picks out a half eaten bone from the hot ashes and finds cooked meat tastes a whole lot better -- A discovery is thus born.
Later that same evening, a male picks up a hollow stick and starts tapping it rhythmically, stirring great joy and delight among his audience. As the evening ends the hottest Neander-chick there snuggles down with the novice music-maker -- Another discovery is likewise born. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
For me, music is all about feeling calm (Little David play on your harp, and all that)
Music can often speak to the soul in a very deep way, much more so than just with words, providing peace and relief from troubles. A certain type of music can certainly do this.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Later that same evening, a male picks up a hollow stick and starts tapping it rhythmically, stirring great joy and delight among his audience.
Or, you are carving out a canoe / pounding out grain, and you discover the time passes more quickly and pleasurably when you assign a rhythm to your actions. Again, the play instinct kicks in to guide you to apply that rhythm to your speech-- now you have a work song. You are all excited about teaching your new song to the group, so when you sit around the fire, you grab up that bone or a handy stick and try to replicate the rhythm you got from the machete or the pestle.
[ 26. April 2014, 16:26: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I think these theories, while plausible, ignore our tendancies to experiment. Ook the caveman, with his brain identical* to ours, discovered things by accident. But we discover things by intent. Right.
If the beginnings were accidental, I think you are looking in the wrong age bracket. What do infants do as soon as they are able to grasp and move objects? Bang them against other objects. How do adults respond? They grab a similar object and bang along. Well, provided the banged objects are not fragile or struck against sensitive body parts.
But, no, Ook or Ooka simply looked at the baby and said,"no, no, Ookette, even though our brains are physiologically capable, we have the curiousity necessary to experiment and this is not rocket science, 20th century egocentrism has determined we are not capable of reasoned discovery. It would be impolite to contradict their irrational supposition and we are not australopithecines, are we? So put down the stick."
*Near enough, pedants.
[ 26. April 2014, 17:15: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There is a lovely series on BBC Radio 4, entitled "Soul Music", which has been excellent in exploring the staying power of many famous pieces of music. This week, it featured the beautiful and sad Welsh love song "Myfanwy". You don't need to understand the words to get caught up in this song.
[Lots of fine male voice choir versions on Youtube, but I rather enjoyed this duet plus male voice choir backing version of "Myfanwy" at a Charity event.]
A lovely song, and AIUI it is about sex in a slightly convoluted way: the words, at least, an evocation of pure love in response to the suggestion by the authors of the Blue Books that Welsh women basically did it for sweeties.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
To be clear about those arguing that music is sex: Jesu of Man's Desiring is a homoerotic love song?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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