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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Spiritual attacks???
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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531
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Posted
What the hell are they all about?
Is this a new thing, I dont remember hearing it until about 8/9 years ago.
I've experienced a few people recently who blame "Spiritual attacks" for their withdrawn behaviour and general anti sociable mood.
Whatever happened to just feeling crap?
I do believe that some kind of spiritual attacks exist but as I feel about speaking in tongues , for every 10000 people that say they do it only 1 probably is with the rest just fooling themselves.
Is it the latest Christian fashion?
Posts: 40 | From: Essex | Registered: Jul 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Popular amongst some types of charismatics. If you believe that God makes you feel happy, I presume it must be demons that make you feel shit.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Talk of them has been around a lot longer than that, PDA!
I blame Neil Anderson for a lot of this. In a nutshell, his mistake is to believe that the Fall revoked mankind's creation mandate in favour of Satan.
The net result of this is that the only influences in play are divine and satanic, and human responsibility and agency is minimised.
At least bad, they can be evo-speak for incompetence. At worst, they can be a pretext for the worst kind of spiritual abuse.
All that said, I too believe that there can be particular concentrations of evil that marshall demonic forces in especially nefarious ways, but that these are not taking place where the "spiritual warfare" enthusiasts are looking, or to be combated in the way they favour.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Balanced wisdom all round.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
On the basis that The Fall counts for anything, it's worth checking for human greed, stupidity and vanity before citing demonism and spiritual attacks.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
As ever, there are some who grasp on to the 'spiritual attack' reason for every time something goes wrong or they feel bad. Ho hum.
However, by observation alone, whenever I or friends are forging ahead with a specific calling in service to God, extraordinary negative events or feelings occur with such regularity beforehand that they can be said to affirm the calling. Go figure.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
It's the one bit of rhetoric my church (Ichthus) uses that makes me quite uncomfortable. It's less about feeling crap, but more when bad things happen. For example, it was noted the families of the leaders of some of our congregations had some quite ill health (we're talking very serious here, not colds & flu) and it was said in a public meeting that these were ways in which "the enemy" tried to undermine us as individuals and as a church.
While it is more common in charismatic churches, the way it is worded owes more to celtic mysticism, coupled with particular readings of Job. So it is often the counterside to those churches that speak of "thin places" or "holy spaces".
While I wouldn't outright deny the possibility of this, it seems that there is sometimes a rush to judgement.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
So-called ‘spiritual attacks’ are par for the course among some of my neo-pentecostal coreligionists.
I am not opposed to the idea that there are both good and nefarious spiritual beings around and that the latter can do us harm. Nonetheless I think this kind of thing is far less common than it’s made out to be.
Quite a lot of the time I think it’s just an excuse for laziness. Far easier to blame demons for your problems than to take responsibility for doing something about it yourself.
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Do we really need anthropomorphised spirit beings when humans are readily available to do far worse things?
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) gives evil eye to co-worker and then knocks on wood, er, his head.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Sounds like "spiritual warfare" which has been par for the course for African Christians for at least 30 years. People I know have books about how to deter the attacks and plenty of preachers make a good living teaching people how to defend themselves.
I'm guessing it's becoming more known elsewhere due to immigration.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
As ever, there are some who grasp on to the 'spiritual attack' reason for every time something goes wrong or they feel bad. Ho hum.
'Twas ever thus. "The woman gave me the fruit and I ate it ... The serpent deceived me, and I ate." Yeah, try taking some flaming responsibility, guys.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
'Twas ever thus. "The woman gave me the fruit and I ate it ... The serpent deceived me, and I ate." Yeah, try taking some flaming responsibility, guys.
Whether it's a whisper in the spiritual ear from outside, or a prompting from the brain from the inside, it's surely our responsibility to recognise deceit and refuse the fruit, eh?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This sort of nonsense has been around for a good while, I can remember it from back in the '80s.
It's allied with an overly inflated idea of one's own spiritual importance ... 'the enemy is having a go at me, look what a threat I must be to the Devil's kingdom ...'
I'm not applying that to Raptor Eye, by the way, but it's the direction that this kind of thinking leads - it puts ME, ME, ME at the epicentre of whatever happens to be going on.
It's a pretty insidiously egotistical form of spiritual deception ... and yes, I've just used similar language - and deliberately so.
In my experience most people who bang on about so-called 'spiritual attacks' are the vulnerable and the emotionally needy - people who crave attention for one reason or other, and I mean that charitably.
The real 'spiritual' business is generally going on somewhere else.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
IIRC, it was a mix of Hal Lindsay, Frank Peretti and wasn't there the Left behind novels that were then written into almost a Battle Order and Manual of Arms by some leaders at the time?
Ahhh - linked with John Wimber Power Evangelism at the time?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wimber
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
This sort of nonsense has been around for a good while, I can remember it from back in the '80s.
It's allied with an overly inflated idea of one's own spiritual importance ... 'the enemy is having a go at me, look what a threat I must be to the Devil's kingdom ...'
I'm not applying that to Raptor Eye, by the way, but it's the direction that this kind of thinking leads - it puts ME, ME, ME at the epicentre of whatever happens to be going on.
It's a pretty insidiously egotistical form of spiritual deception ... and yes, I've just used similar language - and deliberately so.
In my experience most people who bang on about so-called 'spiritual attacks' are the vulnerable and the emotionally needy - people who crave attention for one reason or other, and I mean that charitably.
The real 'spiritual' business is generally going on somewhere else.
Yup! I agree with Gamaliel on this. Very common in the circles I was running with in the 80's and early 90's.
No-one ever managed to come up with a sensible explanation of how Christians could be 'demonised'. And the theology of it all was completely shot to pieces - it gave far too much 'power' to Satanic forces. So much so that it was almost as if Satan and God were equal and opposite forces and sometimes it wasn't uncertain as to who would win out.
In fact, I think that the word 'power' is key here. The belief about spiritual attacks comes out of a viewpoint which is totally fixated on power - Satan's power, God's power and my power (in the Spirit). So many of the songs being sung then were power songs. At its worst, it puffed people up to the point of arrogance.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
As I recall - there was a lot of eisegesis around Ephesians, and it also fed into the Decade of Evangelism in a big way. Bung in a good dollop of Jack Chick, a nice big helping of End-Times theology, and you have a full model of prayer cover that was close to modern Western infantry combat.
Two man teams - one person talking with the target, the other praying (fire and movement team).
Evangelism site would be covered by 1 or 2 local two-man teams (light machinegun teams)
Back at operational base, you have a bunch of folks praying into it, listening to the HS for what to pray for (mortar team)
And so on.
In effect, prayer cover was designed like a fire plan... the systematic theology effectively suggested that it was a case of "keeping the enemy's head down" while "extracting" the newbie.
Bible "sword drills" were quite common in AOG and other charismatic circles of the time.
Wasn't there a load of date-setting for Armageddon around the time as well? All the runup to Y2K?
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
This sort of nonsense has been around for a good while, I can remember it from back in the '80s.
It's allied with an overly inflated idea of one's own spiritual importance ... 'the enemy is having a go at me, look what a threat I must be to the Devil's kingdom ...'
I'm not applying that to Raptor Eye, by the way, but it's the direction that this kind of thinking leads - it puts ME, ME, ME at the epicentre of whatever happens to be going on.
It's a pretty insidiously egotistical form of spiritual deception ... and yes, I've just used similar language - and deliberately so.
In my experience most people who bang on about so-called 'spiritual attacks' are the vulnerable and the emotionally needy - people who crave attention for one reason or other, and I mean that charitably.
The real 'spiritual' business is generally going on somewhere else.
Hmmm. While it may be true that people who 'bang on' about it might want attention, I'll ask you the following questions please, given your experience:
Do you think that there is any such thing as a personal spiritual attack, if so how might it be recognised?
Is there a danger of shrugging off rather than showing love to and helping those individuals who believe that they are under spiritual attack?
Are we not all supposed to be vulnerable to and honest with each other, in Christian love?
Isn't there a place for personal spiritual development, without being judged self-centred if we ask for direction?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
I suppose so - but not in the way that some of the most egregious examples were attempted - which were VERY cackhanded, and one even ended up on Panorama after more trauma was caused. It's generally not advised to chuck a jug of Ribena over the waist of a sexual assault victim to "exorcise demons of lust"... unless you really want to bed in PTSD...
Oh - re the whole model behind "spiritual attacks" that was taught at the time - just found it on Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Spirits
VERY big in the Pentecostal movement at the time.
And this - LAw of Attraction - http://tinyurl.com/lf2fgyc
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Can't speak for Gam, but to answer your points in turn:
1. I'm not sure. I do know that it only seems to happen to people who believe in it. Other people have colds, get bad news at work, feel down, but don't get spiritual attacks.
2. Yes, of course there is. I suppose I'd tend towards thinking that supporting them through what they're perceiving as a spiritual attack rather than shouting at questionable demons would be my tack. I mean, when I was four my Dad got me back to sleep by telling the skeletons under my bed to go away, but that's a bit patronising for adults.
3. Yes of course, but that's not the same thing as agreeing automatically with a person's assessment of the cause of their problem.
4. Yes, but I don't know what that has to do with the topic in hand.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
Anxiety dreams are often labelled as spiritual attack, particularly when they become nightmares in my experience. Although when prayer for protection seems to fix the problem, is it so outlandish? I don't know, if I'm honest!
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
Anxiety dreams are often labelled as spiritual attack, particularly when they become nightmares in my experience. Although when prayer for protection seems to fix the problem, is it so outlandish? I don't know, if I'm honest!
It doesn't really confirm or deny - both the "it's going on in your head so what you think will work, will work" and the "spiritual attack" hypotheses are compatible with the observation. But IME, removing the source of the anxiety (or taking the pills) works as well ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
As ever, there are some who grasp on to the 'spiritual attack' reason for every time something goes wrong or they feel bad. Ho hum.
'Twas ever thus. "The woman gave me the fruit and I ate it ... The serpent deceived me, and I ate." Yeah, try taking some flaming responsibility, guys.
I don't think we're talking about sin, though, so much as general bad luck. ISTM better to believe that you're unwell and depressed because of malevolent demons than because you've got unacknowledged sin in your life and don't have enough faith in God's healing power.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
Anxiety dreams are often labelled as spiritual attack, particularly when they become nightmares in my experience. Although when prayer for protection seems to fix the problem, is it so outlandish? I don't know, if I'm honest!
It doesn't really confirm or deny - both the "it's going on in your head so what you think will work, will work" and the "spiritual attack" hypotheses are compatible with the observation. But IME, removing the source of the anxiety (or taking the pills) works as well
Ohhh - there was a big "anti-meds" thing at the time as well. I also seem to recall it was when we suffered Benny Hinn, Reinhard Bonnke, Cerullo etc etc coming into the Uk for the first time.
Of course - pre-Internet, we didn't know as much about the charlatans like Jimmy Swaggart etc...
Until Phil Collins wrote this Jesus He Knows me. http://tinyurl.com/a2dfo65
Yup - the Word of Faith lot...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
However, by observation alone, whenever I or friends are forging ahead with a specific calling in service to God, extraordinary negative events or feelings occur with such regularity beforehand that they can be said to affirm the calling. Go figure.
I'm not so sure about this. I think part of it is having a worldview that's pre-programmed to assume these kind of things will happen or ascribe spiritual meaning to random stuff.
When we are stressed because of some upcoming important event, minor annoyances can become major ones and dealing with them can in turn lead to further oversights. There's no need to invent an entire demonology to explain that.
Apart from the somewhat separate issue of demonisation, Jesus gave no particular instructions to his disciples about spiritual attack but kept the focus firmly on much more positive things like spreading the good news and being salt and light.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
However, by observation alone, whenever I or friends are forging ahead with a specific calling in service to God, extraordinary negative events or feelings occur with such regularity beforehand that they can be said to affirm the calling. Go figure.
I'm not so sure about this. I think part of it is having a worldview that's pre-programmed to assume these kind of things will happen or ascribe spiritual meaning to random stuff.
When we are stressed because of some upcoming important event, minor annoyances can become major ones and dealing with them can in turn lead to further oversights. There's no need to invent an entire demonology to explain that.
Apart from the somewhat separate issue of demonisation, Jesus gave no particular instructions to his disciples about spiritual attack but kept the focus firmly on much more positive things like spreading the good news and being salt and light.
Good point. There was also the old motto for the unbalanced Christian going around at the time - "So faith, hope and love endure, but the greatest of these is tongues". ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Alex, in your scattergun approach you've mentioned (amongst other things) faith healing, pre-millenial dispensationalism, speaking in tongues, and deliverance - none of which are specifically to do with "spiritual attacks" as being discussed here.
What do you think about "spiritual attacks"? Do you think they're baloney, sometimes baloney, never baloney? Why do you think this?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I am always rather hesitant to talk of spiritual opposition, yet it does seem to me that the difficulties churches often face are due to more than just the commonplace problems of ordinary humanity.
Of course I do realise that all churches will have their problems as they are composed of fallible human beings. After all, major “issues” came to the surface even in the New Testament congregations at Jerusalem or Corinth! Some of these were clearly had sociological or even racist roots, others were due to Christians who were behaving in an immature and selfish way.
But, beyond that, I do wonder if an element of “spiritual warfare” is also involved, by which I mean devilish activity that has been aroused when one tries to challenge the faith of people within the church or attempts new initiatives such as outreach into the local community. Some may feel that this is fanciful; but we must remember that the Bible speaks of malign spiritual forces as well as benevolent ones.
Indeed, we see Jesus himself arousing opposition not just because he was speaking about God in new and unconventional ways but because he was seeking to advance God’s Kingdom into places held by the “enemy” whom he called the “prince of this world”.
Is this superstitious? Well, I am sure many of us have read “The Screwtape Letters” by C.S. Lewis – a highly intelligent man! – which contains this famous passage: “There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them”.
I honestly believe that there is a sense in which a church seeking to faithfully proclaim the message of Jesus Christ will always stir up these “devils”; it is in fact my belief that they will try to discover a church’s “Achilles’ Heel” and exploit it to their advantage.
So, is "spiritual attack" always the explanation for the problems we face? Certainly not - but we must not discount it entirely or rationalise it out of our thinking.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Alex, in your scattergun approach you've mentioned (amongst other things) faith healing, pre-millenial dispensationalism, speaking in tongues, and deliverance - none of which are specifically to do with "spiritual attacks" as being discussed here.
What do you think about "spiritual attacks"? Do you think they're baloney, sometimes baloney, never baloney? Why do you think this?
Sorry Euty - it just reminded me of the whole period in the 80s and 90s when all this WAS mixed in together...
I dunno... I think some of the balance and a lot more work into all these areas was done after Toronto...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I honestly believe that there is a sense in which a church seeking to faithfully proclaim the message of Jesus Christ will always stir up these “devils”; it is in fact my belief that they will try to discover a church’s “Achilles’ Heel” and exploit it to their advantage.
Assuming this hypothesis to be true, can you suggest an effective way of tackling the problem?
Because I'm really not convinced that prancing round with shofars, proclaiming (in France at least) the overthrow of the Goddess Reason (again...), holding prayer meetings in cornfields at county boundaries, and so on, is the right solution.
I think such behaviour is at best a huge distraction and at worst a christian form of witchcraft.
[ 18. June 2014, 21:13: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Things happen, They happen randomly. this means that sometimes bad things happen in clusters. This can feel like targeted enemy action (I have occasionally used this expression to describe how I am feeling about something, but I don't actually believe it.)
Then the cluster ends. If it happens after some particularly intense prayer, it's going to reinforce the enemy action feeling.
Rather like going to the doctor with a wart. The doctor tries various remedies, and eventually one of them works. And the sensible guy explains the probability of warts getting better whatever the treatment. Just so I don't assume that the one remedy I was using at the time is going to work next time first off.
Some random clusters are downright weird. For instance, I have noticed that if, as I am driving across South London, some idiot does a particularly bad bit of driving - shooting out from a side road without stopping at the line, for example -, at least two other drivers will do exactly the same during the journey. (I have been told that, primed by the first idiot, I don't notice the others doing other things - but this isn't true.)
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
However, by observation alone, whenever I or friends are forging ahead with a specific calling in service to God, extraordinary negative events or feelings occur with such regularity beforehand that they can be said to affirm the calling. Go figure.
I'm not so sure about this. I think part of it is having a worldview that's pre-programmed to assume these kind of things will happen or ascribe spiritual meaning to random stuff.
When we are stressed because of some upcoming important event, minor annoyances can become major ones and dealing with them can in turn lead to further oversights. There's no need to invent an entire demonology to explain that.
Apart from the somewhat separate issue of demonisation, Jesus gave no particular instructions to his disciples about spiritual attack but kept the focus firmly on much more positive things like spreading the good news and being salt and light.
I disagree about the pre-programming. As a healthy sceptic with an open mind, I'll listen to other's people ideas without necessarily going along with them. And yet extraordinary negative things do happen at such times, by observation.
I agree that Jesus was positive, and don't in any way associate this with demon possession or consider any action necessary except for prayer and trust in God.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I honestly believe that there is a sense in which a church seeking to faithfully proclaim the message of Jesus Christ will always stir up these “devils”; it is in fact my belief that they will try to discover a church’s “Achilles’ Heel” and exploit it to their advantage.
Assuming this hypothesis to be true, can you suggest an effective way of tackling the problem?
Because I'm really not convinced that prancing round with shofars, proclaiming (in France at least) the overthrow of the Goddess Reason (again...), holding prayer meetings in cornfields at county boundaries, and so on, is the right solution.
I think such behaviour is at best a huge distraction and at worst a christian form of witchcraft.
Agreed - just the ordinary kind of prayer is necessary, both asking for Christ's victory to be realised and for the Holy Spirit's discernment and wisdom to resolve the issues.
I can't prance anyway, not only would I feel very silly but my wife is convinced that I have three left feet!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
For someone who can't speak for me, you made a pretty good job of saying what I'd have probably said, Karl.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Can't speak for Gam, but to answer your points in turn:
1. I'm not sure. I do know that it only seems to happen to people who believe in it. Other people have colds, get bad news at work, feel down, but don't get spiritual attacks.
2. Yes, of course there is. I suppose I'd tend towards thinking that supporting them through what they're perceiving as a spiritual attack rather than shouting at questionable demons would be my tack. I mean, when I was four my Dad got me back to sleep by telling the skeletons under my bed to go away, but that's a bit patronising for adults.
3. Yes of course, but that's not the same thing as agreeing automatically with a person's assessment of the cause of their problem.
4. Yes, but I don't know what that has to do with the topic in hand.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
Jesus described "the thief coming to kill steal and destroy".
Paul told the Ephesians to "Put on the full armour of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes" and talked about the "flaming arrows of the evil one" a little later in the same letter.
1 Peter describes the devil as "prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour"
"No such thing as spiritual attack" I hear you say. I can't reconcile this with what Jesus, Peter and Paul said.
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
Good point. Absolutely critical. But like everything we overbalanced just a tad during the charismatic overload in the 80s and 90s...
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I don't think we're saying that there's no such thing as 'spiritual attack' - simply that what many people claim to be spiritual attacks are anything but.
People have colds, people have off-days, people have all sorts of stuff happen to them and they don't all claim them to be some kind of spiritual attack.
Heck, I was involved with an artistic endeavour recently with a lovely Christian woman who had been through a divorce, had breast cancer and lost all her hair through the chemotherapy, survived that and then lost her son and daughter-in-law in a freak accident ...
She wasn't going round claiming that it was a 'spiritual attack' or attaching any great spiritual significance to these events ... her faith survived - but it was, she acknowledged, a close-run thing.
What we are railing against isn't the idea of genuine 'spiritual attack' but the posturings of often comfortably-off middle-class charismatics who think that stubbing their toe on the way to a Bible class or outreach meeting is some kind of major form of spiritual opposition ...
They ought to go and live in Syria for a fortnight or try to live like a subsistence farmer in sub-Saharan Africa.
That'd give them a proper sense of perspective.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Exactly. When someone sneezes and starts asking where they let their spiritual guard down, you know you've got a problem.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
The Desert Fathers teach us that the demons are constantly at war with us, insinuating their lies into our minds, enticing us to act against God and our better interests. The demons—or, better—the Thoughts by which the attacks are made are these:- Gluttony
- Avarice
- Lust
- Anger
- Sadness
- Despondency
- Pride
- Vainglory
At the root of all of these is Self-love, which sets up the self as an idol in opposition to the one true God. The remedy of the sickness of these thoughts is the therapy of Humility and single-minded love of God.
So yes, there is a cosmic battle between Good and evil playing out on a grand stage, with Good the inexorable victor. But, poor sinners that most of us are, all these demons need to do is give us a gentle shove in the wrong direction ("surely you will not die…you will be divine") and then we take care of the rest of the matter and, absent God, the demons can leave us to the work of our own self-destruction in our a spiritual backwater far from the main battle.
Just as salvation consists in a humble participation in the divine nature, this is opposed by a vainglorious exaltation of our fallen nature, through these Thoughts.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Green Mario:
Jesus described "the thief coming to kill steal and destroy".
Paul told the Ephesians to "Put on the full armour of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes" and talked about the "flaming arrows of the evil one" a little later in the same letter.
1 Peter describes the devil as "prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour"
"No such thing as spiritual attack" I hear you say. I can't reconcile this with what Jesus, Peter and Paul said.
Neither Jesus, nor Peter, nor Paul used that precise term.
In my view where a lot of popular evangelical and charismatic theology goes wrong is that it subsumes complex subjects touched on in Scripture into a buzzword, such as "spiritual warfare" or "spiritual attack". Doctrine is then built backwards from this buzzword rather than being based on what Scripture actually says. If you look at a lot of charismatic/evo teaching, it's replete with personal development speak or esoterism, but actual exposition and Bible verses are few and far between.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Green Mario
Shipmate
# 18090
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Posted
Eutychus - by the same token there is a problem (the same problem of over simplification) with ridiculing the idea of "spiritual attack" rather than building a proper theology on the subject taking seriously what the New Testament says.
And to be honest its not much of a stretch to jump from a lion prowling around or flaming arrows being shot to "spiritual attack"; this doesn't mean that every interpretation of what this means is sensible (it is easy to point to silly examples of people using the term) but it does suggest there is a reality behind this short-hand term even if the term is not strictly biblical language.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
You only have to look at my first post on this thread to see that I have not dismissed the underlying realities. What I do dispute is that they are helpfully addressed by the people who use the term most readily.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Raptor Eye
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# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
For someone who can't speak for me, you made a pretty good job of saying what I'd have probably said, Karl.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Can't speak for Gam, but to answer your points in turn:
1. I'm not sure. I do know that it only seems to happen to people who believe in it. Other people have colds, get bad news at work, feel down, but don't get spiritual attacks.
2. Yes, of course there is. I suppose I'd tend towards thinking that supporting them through what they're perceiving as a spiritual attack rather than shouting at questionable demons would be my tack. I mean, when I was four my Dad got me back to sleep by telling the skeletons under my bed to go away, but that's a bit patronising for adults.
3. Yes of course, but that's not the same thing as agreeing automatically with a person's assessment of the cause of their problem.
4. Yes, but I don't know what that has to do with the topic in hand.
To respond to both therefore:
1. It doesn't only happen to people who believe in it. Those who don't put it down to a spiritual attack may simply not be recognising that it is - if of course it is. I do agree that colds, bad news and feeling down are all common and unlikely to fall into that category.
2. I agree.
3. You say 'of course', but Gamaliel's post implied that being vulnerable was not a good thing.
4. If considering our own spirituality is self-centred, as implied by Gamaliel's post, surely so is seeking spiritual direction?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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I'm sorry if I implied that under 3, Raptor Eye.
What I meant by 'vulnerable people' are those who are - for no fault of their own - prone to suggestibility and therefore more open to manipulation.
Seeking spiritual direction and to develop one's spirituality isn't a bad or self-centred thing either - but it can be if it leads to the point of view that everything that happens revolves around us and is directly linked to our own spiritual progress or lack of it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
"Spiritual Attacks" went hand-in-glove with discussions of "Demon Oppression" at least back to the '70s and the awful "How to Live Like a King's Kid" book by Harold Hill. Bad ideas never die.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
There was also the idea of "territorial spirits" which lay behind at least some of the theology of "Marching for Jesus". One wasn't just making a Christian witness but "reclaiming the territory for God".
While, of course, recognising that some areas can be vice-ridden and centres of corruption, I always thought this spiritual approach was a bit far-fetched and put all the blame on the Devil rather than on humans.
Nevertheless, I still stand with what I wrote upthread: I believe that there is such a thing as spiritual attack although we must not bandy such terminology around lightly (nor split our infinitives so blatantly).
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Nevertheless, I still stand with what I wrote upthread: I believe that there is such a thing as spiritual attack although we must not bandy such terminology around lightly (nor split our infinitives so blatantly).
I think that's reasonable enough. We're told to beware of sheep in wolves clothing, the wolf, I think, being the devil.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Nevertheless, I still stand with what I wrote upthread: I believe that there is such a thing as spiritual attack although we must not bandy such terminology around lightly (nor split our infinitives so blatantly).
The question then becomes; what do we actually do about this? And this is the point at which things go badly awry in more enthusiastic circles.
After all a physical problem has a physical solution, therefore a spiritual problem must have a spiritual solution. So people start to make up all sorts of odd mechanistic practices based on corner case readings of hard to understand bits of the bible. The territorial spirit theology is largely based on one verse in Daniel, after all.
The more holistic approach that - whatever their faults - the various historical churches run with seem to be a bit more healthy in this regard.
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Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
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Posted
Our pal Jack Chick has a particularly hilarious tract about what could be called a Spiritual Attack. A teenager shoots himself. His parents are into masonry. A wise neighbor convinces them that the kid did it because they brought "witchcraft" into their home. They burn Dad's Shriner fez and of course the kid recovers.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1074/1074_01.asp
[ 19. June 2014, 14:50: Message edited by: Squirrel ]
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"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
"Spiritual attack" is often charismatic-ese for "bad luck".
Lots of our problems are due to the influences of the world, the flesh, and the devil. It's not wise or very honest to only blame the last member of this unholy trinity.
Any "theology" which causes people to focus more on Satan than on Christ and produces gnostic or even, as Euythcus calls them, Christianised witchcraft type practices is probably best given a wide berth (despite the needle of truth in the haystack of error).
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JJ
SDG
blog
Posts: 604 | From: Devon | Registered: Feb 2011
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The territorial spirit theology is largely based on one verse in Daniel, after all.
I think a more realistic place to start with regard to territorial spirits is 2 Cor 10:4-5 where Paul talks of demolishing strongholds, arguments and pretensions.
Inasmuch as I have a work of reference on this subject it is not some weighty doorstop tome from Wagner or the like but a 60-page booklet called Principalities and Powers by Tom Marshall, a name some of you may remember.
In it he mentions how it is common even in secular language to refer to the 'spirit' of an organisation and the way it endures even as people come and go. Sociologists (thinking here of Peter Berger quoted in Os Guiness' The Gravedigger File) talk in terms of the social reality of religion and its plausibility*.
In other words, there appears to be a broad acceptance of the idea of some sort of intangible corporate influence on mindsets and behaviours.
I think spiritual warfare is, broadly speaking, about combating manifestly evil influences that transcend individuals and pervade cultures, whether corporate, local, or otherwise, and that this is best achieved by modelling a Christian counter-culture based on the values of the Kingdom of God. Or, as Paul might have put it, bringing every thought captive to Christ.
=
*I organised a March For Jesus here back in the day. I was sceptical even back then about the mechanistic aspects of it, but I think it was great to get christians out on the streets and praying in symbolically significant spots, largely for their own good. And doing something well in the public space can be good for plausibility: isn't that what Gay Pride marches are all about? (Our March For Jesus arrived on the city's central square to find the Gay Pride march had got there first - an unplanned coincidence. What happened next is a story for another time!).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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