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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Church in Wales ... numbers down ...
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Laurelin
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# 17211
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Posted
Lordy, that IS grim. But surely the Anglican Church in the UK in general is looking into the abyss, as are all the mainline institutional churches in Britain.
Soul Survivor may not have all the answers and they may not be for everyone but they must be doing at least something right. Like talking openly about addiction and porn.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Byron
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# 15532
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Posted
Soul Survivor certainly appeals to its (mostly young) demographic, but it's a religious vacation, not a longterm survival strategy for a church, in Wales, or elsewhere. You can't transpose the buzz of gathering with thousands of like-minded people for a brief time. Its power comes from it being exceptional.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
This is concerning reading and I have for some time been thinking that we really do need to up our evangelistic game- not an easy thing for a warm'n'fuzzy affcath to say (but partly because I think Wales and the world in general needs more warm'n'fuzzy affcathism).
My immediate reservation about the link in the OP, however, is that the author seems to be saying 'there, you see, the CinW will die unless it immediately does more of what I want it to be doing anyway'.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes, I think that is the case with the article ... 'if only we were doing this ...'
I'm not sure that simply talking about porn and addiction is such a big deal. My impression of events like Soul Survivor is that they'll consider themselves 'cutting edge' to be even mentioning/talking about such things but they offer very little by way of practical solutions ...
They'll probably have had some kind of appeal and laid hands on the kids who actually owned up to viewing stuff on-line ...
But I might be wrong.
It's a tricky one, but whilst I would agree that the world needs more fuzzy Aff-Cath stuff as well as less fuzzy sacramental stuff ... in addition to the various flavours of evangelicalism that are currently available ... it's hard to see how fuzzy Aff-Cath stuff can effectively reproduce itself.
The fuzzy Aff-Cath types I know generally aren't in the least bit interested in evangelism or mission ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, that's the problem IMO. The trouble is that I think that we have got a lot to offer in terms of an inclusive, questioning faith that starts with people from where they are. We need to get much more mission-minded. Maybe I overdo the fuzziness, but I mean it as shorthand for not claiming to have all the answers. And it bothers me very much that this sort of Christianity is declining while the Christianities that are resisting or reversing decline seem all to often to be full of cheapjack simplistic assurance.
[ 06. September 2014, 12:18: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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WearyPilgrim
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# 14593
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Posted
I had a conversation yesterday with an Episcopal priest in which she was talking about the precipitous decline in the number of children and teens in TEC during the past decade. She felt strongly that this needs to be addressed in two ways: (1) Evangelism --- actually introducing (or re-introducing!) people to Christ, to what the Church believes about him, and to how believing and following him is the way to true life. She maintains that mainline churches are so afraid of stepping on people's toes that the churches have lost sight of what they should be about. (2) Education, education, education. Confirmation classes aren't enough to adequately orient kids toward a trajectory of real faith and discipleship, and many adults who have been confirmed and are (to varying degrees) active in church life really don't have a clue about what they believe. Clergy may be good at addressing everyday issues in their sermons, but we're falling flat when it comes to reinforcing in congregants' minds what it is that constitutes Christianity's central claims.
It was really quite an enlightening set of observations, given that it came from someone who would probably regard herself as a mainline, fairly liberal Christian.
Posts: 383 | From: Sedgwick, Maine USA | Registered: Feb 2009
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
We need to get much more mission-minded. Maybe I overdo the fuzziness, but I mean it as shorthand for not claiming to have all the answers. And it bothers me very much that this sort of Christianity is declining while the Christianities that are resisting or reversing decline seem all to often to be full of cheapjack simplistic assurance.
The big switch off is not a position where we don't claim to have al the answers - its where we don't seem to have any (possible for fear of offence).
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yes, I think there's something in that.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I wouldn't say that it was impossible for the fuzzier end of things to recover ground in this respect - but it'd take some jolly hard work.
I fear, though, that it might already be too late in some places. You can only up the ante in your confirmation classes if you've got a confirmation class in the first place. You can only 'influence' your Sunday school if you actual have one.
The more liberal parish here is in imminent danger of losing those of its youth it still retains and the Sunday school isn't far behind.
Whereas there is an ostensibly thriving youth and childrens/families work at the evangelical parish with investment in two full-time workers and one part-time worker to maintain momentum.
I'm not knocking that at all, but I'm afraid that they are offering the rather simplistic, painting by numbers, join the dots approach ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
There's a considerable focus on youth but my concern is those over thirty who don't already attend. While many churches have a core of older people there are simply a lot more older people around, and what was 'old' forty years ago just isn't old any more (my brothers and brothers in law are all over seventy and I'd only describe one of them as an old man, and he's 86!). With few exceptions church going just isn't done by people of working age in the UK, unless they have always done it, so I'm really not convinced by a focus on youth.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, that's a good point and an interesting corrective to those who seem obsessed by it ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
We need to get much more mission-minded. Maybe I overdo the fuzziness, but I mean it as shorthand for not claiming to have all the answers. And it bothers me very much that this sort of Christianity is declining while the Christianities that are resisting or reversing decline seem all to often to be full of cheapjack simplistic assurance.
The big switch off is not a position where we don't claim to have al the answers - its where we don't seem to have any (possible for fear of offence).
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
We need to get much more mission-minded. Maybe I overdo the fuzziness, but I mean it as shorthand for not claiming to have all the answers. And it bothers me very much that this sort of Christianity is declining while the Christianities that are resisting or reversing decline seem all to often to be full of cheapjack simplistic assurance.
The big switch off is not a position where we don't claim to have al the answers - its where we don't seem to have any (possible for fear of offence).
Indeed. And half the problem is that the church has a reputation of not believing what its own holy book tells them.
Why should anyone buy into a product that its salesmen don't think is any good?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
I had a conversation yesterday with an Episcopal priest in which she was talking about the precipitous decline in the number of children and teens in TEC during the past decade. She felt strongly that this needs to be addressed in two ways: (1) Evangelism --- actually introducing (or re-introducing!) people to Christ, to what the Church believes about him, and to how believing and following him is the way to true life. She maintains that mainline churches are so afraid of stepping on people's toes that the churches have lost sight of what they should be about. (2) Education, education, education. Confirmation classes aren't enough to adequately orient kids toward a trajectory of real faith and discipleship, and many adults who have been confirmed and are (to varying degrees) active in church life really don't have a clue about what they believe. Clergy may be good at addressing everyday issues in their sermons, but we're falling flat when it comes to reinforcing in congregants' minds what it is that constitutes Christianity's central claims.
It was really quite an enlightening set of observations, given that it came from someone who would probably regard herself as a mainline, fairly liberal Christian.
I was raised Episcopalian and still consider myself to be a Piskie although I am between churches. I think this priest was spot on.
Earlier this year I bought "Catholicism", a 5 DVD set hosted by Fr. Robert Barron that is an overview of Catholicism in the past and today, all over the world. It was a fantastic evangelistic tool. It was extremely well done. I was moved to tears on several occasions watching it and found it intellectually stimulating as well. Apparently It's part of the "New Evangelization" program in the RCC.
Fr. Barron has a new lecture series about to be released called "Priest Prophet King" (Jesus through the lens of the Old Testament) and he has a follow-up in the works to "Catholicism" that focuses on major figures in church history--saints, writers like Chesterton, artists like Michaelangelo, etc. I'll be getting both of those as well.
Speaking for myself, I am quite hungry for this kind of material. I'd like it even better if the Episcopalians were putting out well-made and well researched productions like this, but they aren't.
So, why the hell aren't they?
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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bib
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# 13074
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Posted
It is very difficult to convey the Christian message to young people as they are battered constantly with negative messages on social media. IMO young people want to conform to the social norms, and when social media is rubbishing religious belief and blaming the church for the world's ills it is difficult to get people to stand out from the crowd and claim that they are actually active Christians. I don't know what the answer is other than Christian families need to help their children to develop a living faith. Unfortunately, it is just not 'fashionable' to believe in God and if parents don't care then how can their kids know about God.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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hatless
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# 3365
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Posted
I'm not in Wales, but a young couple came to church last week simply because one of them had never been to church before. She wanted to see what it was like. They were amazed by how friendly everyone was, and the man was overheard to say - during the reading about "what does it profit someone if they gain the whole world but lose their life" - "That's very true, that is."
I think things will get easier when the church can speak with a fresh and clear voice because the culture of half-hearted, please your parents, now and then, school and funeral Christianity has died. I suspect that past has had a stronger hold on Wales and that they are a little behind in this respect.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Ethne Alba
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# 5804
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Posted
Well, Wales is another country, not just another county like Gloucestershire. The Church in Wales is also not the Church of England. An altogether different animal.
Which is all to say that merely transporting an English answer will, in all probability, not work. Not long term anyway.
What might work ( having lived there) is finding a way to blur the edges of church and its surroundings.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
People have blamed all sorts of things for the decline in church attendance in Wales - and it's probably worse among the non-conformist churches in many places than the Church in Wales.
Calvinism has been blamed.
And Welsh antagonism towards organised religion is also said to have a strongly and residually Calvinist flavour ... and I can see that.
Revivalism has been blamed.
Lack of revivalism has been blamed.
Socialism has been blamed.
Even the Eisteddfodau and Welsh Nationalism has been blamed ...
I can see what Hatless is getting at but I'm not sure that a Pol Pot Year Zero approach is entirely helpful ... but then, it does seem to be the one we are heading towards ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
working out in the wilds of Wales (but not in the CinW), one question I'd have to ask alongside the figures here is the population move, there seems to be less jobs in many rural areas (where the majority of the CinW churches can be found), and thus younger people are moving out - and this in turn equals less kids.
Also I'd rather see these figures in a longer term context, one year can be a blip. But yes numbers are going down in general.
Posts: 103 | From: somewhere over the border | Registered: Apr 2010
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The big switch off is not a position where we don't claim to have al the answers - its where we don't seem to have any (possible for fear of offence).
Indeed. And half the problem is that the church has a reputation of not believing what its own holy book tells them.
Why should anyone buy into a product that its salesmen don't think is any good?
I agree, but from a liberal perspective. Liberals are compromised horribly by refusing to be clear about what they believe. Few have confidence in a person who shows no confidence in themselves.
Just as important is my usual line about liberal churches being culturally accessible: cut back on impenetrable liturgy, roll out the guitars and AV.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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John D. Ward
Shipmate
# 1378
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
AV
Audio-Visual or Authorized Version?
Posts: 208 | From: Swansea, Wales, U.K. | Registered: Sep 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
The Revised Standard Version will do nicely ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
People have blamed all sorts of things for the decline in church attendance in Wales - and it's probably worse among the non-conformist churches in many places than the Church in Wales.
Calvinism has been blamed.
And Welsh antagonism towards organised religion is also said to have a strongly and residually Calvinist flavour ... and I can see that.
Revivalism has been blamed.
Lack of revivalism has been blamed.
Socialism has been blamed.
Even the Eisteddfodau and Welsh Nationalism has been blamed ...
I can see what Hatless is getting at but I'm not sure that a Pol Pot Year Zero approach is entirely helpful ... but then, it does seem to be the one we are heading towards ...
What I find worrying is that in our area it is the Church in Wales that is doing comparatively well. The Church here has been undermined by the fact that we are seen as unwelcoming to outsiders - we are seen as a cliquey club.
I also think that communication is also a massive issue, people don't seem to appreciate the good things the church is doing - especially the work that we do in light of the bible, such as helping the poor and needy. There is too much history of the clique in this town for outsiders to see why they should bother coming in. I hope that makes sense.
Going back to the blog post's mention of Soul Survivor :-
I went a couple of years ago and was genuinely impressed with what I saw. A couple of my friends made commitments that week. Some stuck with it, others didn't. There is a bible study that is provided by SS that is very good but requires discipline. As with all Christian conferences what benefits you get from it in the long term depend on the work you put into it.
The youth have gone to SS and stuck around are the youth I respect in the church. Their view of the world has been transformed and they are the future of the church, working with the youth in our parish themselves.
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
We all knew that numbers are down, but the latest figures for the Anglican Church in Wales show a dispiriting picture.
See: http://stevenbunting.wordpress.com/2014/09/05/church-in-wales-membership-and-young-people/
I'm not sure I'd see Soul Survivor type stuff as potentially saving the day ... however ...
Thoughts?
I went looking for a long term trend - and numbers in 2012 were showing a little upturn in a couple of categories. But Figure 1 of the 2012 report is showing an almost linear decrease since 1990, with numbers about halving in 20 years.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John D. Ward:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
AV
Audio-Visual or Authorized Version?
Audio-visual. Although I dig the KJV, I can't see it being much of a draw outside the lit set. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Guitar-led worship makes sense in an evangelical context ... and yes, I know, there are also Catholic examples ... but I can't quite see it working in liberal settings somehow ...
It evokes shades of 'Kum-by-ah' (spelling?) and 'Michael Row The Boat Ashore' ...
Meanwhile, 'commitments' ... man, I can't stand that jargon word. I know what you mean by it, Lord Pontivillian but I wish someone would come up with a better phrase than 'making a commitment' ... it sounds like a down-payment on a mortgage or something ...
The ultimate commodification of Christianity ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
The trouble is that I think that we have got a lot to offer in terms of an inclusive, questioning faith that starts with people from where they are. We need to get much more mission-minded. Maybe I overdo the fuzziness, but I mean it as shorthand for not claiming to have all the answers. And it bothers me very much that this sort of Christianity is declining while the Christianities that are resisting or reversing decline seem all to often to be full of cheapjack simplistic assurance.
This is a rather amusing paragraph. It looks the problem right in the eye and then says "I see nothing." As a convert from the ever-growing cradle non-religious crowd, let me put this plainly: nobody from the outside needs any fuzziness from you, whatsoever. We can do fuzzy perfectly fine without any church, it's a fuzzy world through and through. Fuzziness is an internal accommodation, it's how you keep people that are in your church already from leaving. If you want to attract new people, they need to have a reason to start dedicating their time and money to you. And unless you have something clear to offer - even if it is a bit of an advertisement lie - why would anybody feel like shopping for their spiritual needs with you? In particular if they are not even aware of having any spiritual needs.
You are in exactly the same situation as a fitness club: First, you need to establish the need in potential customers. They think they are doing just fine, for the most part. You need to either give them a new worry, or reframe some of their existing worries in your terms. "Get fit for the bikini season." (You are fat.) "Meet the new healthy and strong you." (You are sickly and weak.) Etc. Then you need to tell them that you have the solution for them, and the best one at that. "All new equipment. Best prices in town. Personal trainer available." When they have come and signed up and pay money, then you can be all fuzzy about what they have to do. Sure, that guy will never lose his beer gut with the exercises he's doing, while stuffing his face at our club bar. But if we push him to really do something about it, he might leave. So let's make sure there's just enough feeling of progress to keep him on our books as paying customer forever...
The reason why "cheapjack simplistic assurance" works, somewhat, is quite simply because it gets at least some of the initial advertising right. Probably by accident, but nevertheless. If you can't bring yourself to have some memorable branding, then it's bye-bye time. Rest assured, you will not be missed. Or do you remember which fitness club was the latest one in your town to fail and close? I didn't think so.
It's a buyers' market in the West for spirituality. You need to sell hard with clear lines targeted at specific groups of people. How you keep people in is a different matter to how you reel them in in the first place. And how they actually would make best spiritual progress is a different matter again. "The master commended the dishonest steward for his shrewdness; for the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light." (Lk 16:8)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Some shrewd commentary here, Ingo, and as I know that you are writing in a second (third?) language I'm sure you didn't intend the slightly patronising tone at the beginning. Perhaps I was wrong to use the word 'fuzzy'- selfdeprecation winning out over aaccuracy, because actually I don't think that the kind of liberal catholic Anglicanism that I am talking about is particularly fuzzy. I think that we do have some solid things to say about taking a good hard look at the priorities of our culture and society. But how, as you say, to make this kind of Christianity attractive to people outside it? Perhaps it is something which some people come to after they have been within the faith for a while. I don't know. But I do believe that we have something good to offer.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
I had not been back to SOF for a while. I must say, when I looked at this thread yesterday, at that stage it looked one of the sanest I have seen for a long time. All the comments then seemed pertinent and from people who had a toe in the water. With a subject such as this - a real life situation - you are either involved or not. If you are involved then it is, quite literally, a matter of life or death. If you just want to be smart I think you miss the boat. My gut feeling is that the Church in Wales is not dissimilar in many ways to its sister the Anglican Church in Australia (outside Sydney, Armidale and North Western Australia). It has the same Liberal Catholic ethos and broad general tolerance. But it is slowly withering. Why? Distaste with the churches handling of paedophilia; boring careerism among many of its clerics and no fire. Simple. I could go on but those are the main reasons to me.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I think that we do have some solid things to say about taking a good hard look at the priorities of our culture and society. But how, as you say, to make this kind of Christianity attractive to people outside it? Perhaps it is something which some people come to after they have been within the faith for a while. I don't know. But I do believe that we have something good to offer.
Look, this isn't rocket science. I'm standing in front of you. I have about 400 hours of spare time and £500 pounds to give, per annum, and I may bring along a nuclear family. Why should that go to you, rather than some other Christian group or the Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims or whatever? You have roughly 30 seconds before my mind's well-honed anti-spam filters will fade you out. So, what is in it for me? What do I get?
It is entirely possible to make a sales pitch on "reforming culture and society", of course. But actually, that will probably fly better with young people. Young people need their revolutions. I'm middle-aged, well-educated and doing well for myself. Chances are that I'm cynical and don't want society to change all that much. Unless perhaps if you get me on my concerns for my child's future or have sussed out that I follow some strong political ideology, that probably will be the wrong sales pitch. Look at what you have, and think what of it might interest me. Then sell that hard.
Saying "but I do believe that we have something good to offer" is just neither here nor there. "Some people may think our restaurant cooks some nice food. Our repair shop probably does a reasonable job for OK prices. Our cable TV also has some nice channels for you to watch. Our hotel doesn't disappoint much." I know you are English, but if you are going for understatement as sales pitch then you have to do that hard! So if you welcome me to Westminster Cathedral as your little parish church, or if I witness you feeding hundreds of homeless as just one of the many small ways in which you provide charity, then I will be impressed. Otherwise I will just note that you are not noteworthy and look elsewhere.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Look, Ingo, I do realise all this, but I have neither the time or the space to go into all this here, and we need to think this out. You are quite right that we need a pitch. I will leave it there because I am in grave danger of getting all Hellish with you.
Happy sailing in the Bark of Peter. As ever, you demonstrate why that is such an attractive vessel to some- and such an unattractive one to others.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Weird, I was sincerely trying to help. ![[Confused]](confused.gif) This had nothing at all to do with attacking whatever sort of Christian you might be. It applies to RCs just as well, from the most cafeteria to the ultra-trads. Indeed, it applies to any religion that tries to convert the non-religious in the West, though Christianity admittedly has a unique re-branding problem here. But anyway, suit yourself...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
This is a rather amusing paragraph. It looks the problem right in the eye and then says "I see nothing." As a convert from the ever-growing cradle non-religious crowd, let me put this plainly: nobody from the outside needs any fuzziness from you, whatsoever. We can do fuzzy perfectly fine without any church, it's a fuzzy world through and through. Fuzziness is an internal accommodation, it's how you keep people that are in your church already from leaving. If you want to attract new people, they need to have a reason to start dedicating their time and money to you. And unless you have something clear to offer - even if it is a bit of an advertisement lie - why would anybody feel like shopping for their spiritual needs with you? In particular if they are not even aware of having any spiritual needs.
There aren't many times I agree with you on anything. But the CofE and CinW as they stand don't stand for anything in particular that I can make out. Its biggest current public battles are whether it should compromise with its own reactionaries. Not even whether it should be reactionary - but whether it should let the reactionaries carry off the candlesticks, a £1 million fund from the Cofraternity of the Blessed Sacrament, several entire parishes, equality for female priests for another ten years or more, and preventing decent priests from even blessing gay marriages. Oh, and on the financial side whether it should itself invest in a Payday Loans company.
"We're the people who compromise with reactionaries and have reactionaries leading us* but are quite nice really" is even less of an attraction than "We are unashamed reactionaries".
* Barry Morgan, admittedly, does not appear to be one and neither was his predecessor as Archbishop of Wales (Rowan Williams, of course).
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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Holy Smoke
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# 14866
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
I agree, but from a liberal perspective. Liberals are compromised horribly by refusing to be clear about what they believe. Few have confidence in a person who shows no confidence in themselves.
What liberals believe is usually at a greater or lesser remove from orthodox Christianity, and therein lies the problem. Christianity has spent the best part of two millenia believing that Jesus was literally God, and that he literally saved the world by dying on the cross. I can't see it having much credibility left, if it upped and changed it's mind. The best that 'liberals' can hope for is a bit of fuzziness.
[ 08. September 2014, 15:29: Message edited by: Holy Smoke ]
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by IngoB:
Fuzziness is an internal accommodation, it's how you keep people that are in your church already from leaving. If you want to attract new people, they need to have a reason to start dedicating their time and money to you. And unless you have something clear to offer - even if it is a bit of an advertisement lie - why would anybody feel like shopping for their spiritual needs with you? In particular if they are not even aware of having any spiritual needs.
I reached that conclusion a few years after ordination. Both my wife and I had more than our fair share of parishioners who couldn't say the creed without crossing their fingers. They subscribed to what is now commonly called Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. I wondered why they bothered coming to church seeing as how they didn't really believe most of the stuff they were saying or being told. I think they came because they liked church. They liked having coffee and donuts with their friends. Some liked singing in the choir. Others liked the opportunity to participate in outreach of one sort or the other. Usually, outreach meant writing a check or donating stuff to charity. Most Sundays, they heard a sermon that reinforced the ethics and mores of the predominant culture.
I also recognized that a person not raised in church would see this as a silly waste of time. Many in TEC want to focus mainly on social justice. However, those outside the church don't need to come to a building on a Sunday morning, say a bunch of words they don't really believe, and have coffee with people old enough to be their grandparents in order to support whatever social justice issue(s) of importance to them. As a matter of fact, giving money to an organization that spends a good chunk of it's resources on building and maintenance, administration, and staff is a very inefficient use of one's money. Of course, the average progressive thinks better of the liberal mainline churches than they do more conservative churches. All that means is they believe the mainline churches are quaint and not threatening as opposed to evil. We are quaint and nonthreatening is not a very convincing slogan.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
...the CofE and CinW as they stand don't stand for anything in particular that I can make out. Its biggest current public battles are whether it should compromise with its own reactionaries. Not even whether it should be reactionary - but whether it should let the reactionaries carry off the candlesticks, a £1 million fund from the Cofraternity of the Blessed Sacrament, several entire parishes, equality for female priests for another ten years or more, and preventing decent priests from even blessing gay marriages. Oh, and on the financial side whether it should itself invest in a Payday Loans company.
"We're the people who compromise with reactionaries and have reactionaries leading us* but are quite nice really" is even less of an attraction than "We are unashamed reactionaries".
* Barry Morgan, admittedly, does not appear to be one and neither was his predecessor as Archbishop of Wales (Rowan Williams, of course).
Quite. And FWIW pretty much all of what you have said does not apply, or applies in much less measure, to the CinW. We ordained women priests later than England, but we don't have flying Bishops here, and didn't replace the nearest thing we had to one when he retired. When we did finally legislate for women Bishops, we jumped straight in and didn't faff about with further consultations or codes or exceptions. Although we still don't back SSM, we produced a much more balanced piece on it than the CofE did and ++Barry was rather surprised when the Act forbade us to celebrate SSMs without further legislation. In fact, if you look at ++Barry's
Presidential Address at the last Governing Body meeting you'll see that he is ruling nothing out in the longer term.
This is not to say that none of the CofE's image problems is shared by the CinW, but our numerical decline is related to wider social and cultural changes.
[ 08. September 2014, 15:48: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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Byron
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# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
What liberals believe is usually at a greater or lesser remove from orthodox Christianity, and therein lies the problem. Christianity has spent the best part of two millenia believing that Jesus was literally God, and that he literally saved the world by dying on the cross. I can't see it having much credibility left, if it upped and changed it's mind. The best that 'liberals' can hope for is a bit of fuzziness.
Christianity spent the best part of 1,500 years believing that the Catholic Church was the only true church. Its credibility seems to've survived the reformation.
Christianity also spent the best part of 1,800 years believing that slavery was sanctioned by God. It seems to've survived the abandonment of that belief.
Christianity changes, or it dies. To date, it's changed.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
Originally posted by Byron:
[Quote]Christianity changes, or it dies. [/qb]Alongside death, there's always the possibility of resurrection.
[ 08. September 2014, 17:48: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Darllenwr
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# 14520
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Posted
I'm thinking (from the perspective of a lay minister in the CinW) that part of our problem is that we have spent too much effort on watering down the Christian Faith to make it acceptable to the outside world and, thereby, have removed nearly all of the challenge that it poses?
Many years ago, I recall watching a documentary on the BBC commenting upon the rise in conversions to Islam from the ranks of traditional British church-goers. The presenters of the documentary had no convincing explanation for the phenomenon, but I remember thinking that an attraction of Islam, from certain perspectives, was that it makes demands of its adherents. The Church (and you would note that I am carefully not singling out any denomination in this instance) seems to have spent a great deal of effort in removing the challenging and the demanding from its message in recent years - perhaps this has been a mistake?
And, in any case, if, for fear of offending somebody, we do not preach the distinctive feature of our faith - the person and work of Jesus Christ - it is small wonder if the world outside does not understand what we believe.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
With you completely, Darlennwr. Jesus made serious demands on all those who would follow him, and I don't think we should water that down.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
With you completely, Darlennwr. Jesus made serious demands on all those who would follow him, and I don't think we should water that down.
Well, yes, but there are important subtleties to making that work in practice. If I may recommend the approach of Tom Sawyer Whitewashing the Fence?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
I'm thinking (from the perspective of a lay minister in the CinW) that part of our problem is that we have spent too much effort on watering down the Christian Faith to make it acceptable to the outside world and, thereby, have removed nearly all of the challenge that it poses?...
Speaking as a CofE person, I agree. We have the same problem.
We have spent too much time in my lifetime watering down the faith. To make it acceptable to people who aren't interested, too many of our public representatives remove any reason why anyone might get any impression they need bother anyway.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Galloping Granny
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# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It evokes shades of 'Kum-by-ah' (spelling?) and 'Michael Row The Boat Ashore' ...
Thanks for the earworm.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Can't see why guitar-led worship wouldn't necessarily work with liberal Anglicanism, though I'd hate it. (Always had the impression that RCs have it because they don't always have organists but they do have nuns!)
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Just a random thought, in the context of Cwmbran, shouldn't that have been "cwm-by-yere"? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Ha ha ha ...
Is that a companion song to 'Over By There'?
Or 'Where By Is That To?'
Or even, 'Where to do yew live?'
'Come by yere, my Lord, come by yere ...'
Love it ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Can't see why guitar-led worship wouldn't necessarily work with liberal Anglicanism,...
Did Fred Kaan write anything that can be sung to the guitar? If so, surely that + a bit of of Sydney Carter would be OK - as long as nothing by G**h*m K**d***k, St Uart T**n**d or the G**tt*s slipped in by a mistake?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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