|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: US Episcopal Church Eucharistic Prayers
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
What are the relative frequencies of use of the Eucharistic Prayer options from the US Episcopal Church BCP 1979 (2 for Rite I and 4 (A, B, C,and D) for Rite II? Do certain parishes and certain priests tend to prefer certain Eucharistic Prayers over others? Are certain Eucharistic Prayers used more on certain occasions.
As a non-Episcopalian, my obervation seems to be that Rite II, EP B is by far the most common. Is this true? Is this because it is the simplest and one that most priests know by heart, like with the RC EP II?
Why have I never heard Rite II EP D? It's the only one based on the same source text as one of the post-Vatican II RC Ordinary Form EP's (IV).
For Rite I, what EP is more common? Who tends to use which of the Rite I EP's and are there certain occasions where one is used more than the other?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
|
Posted
In my brief two years as an Episcopalian I've only been to Rite II Eucharists, but in my congregations Prayer B has been the most common, followed by Prayer A. Prayer D might be used for special occasions. Prayer C will get eye-rolls from people not of a certain generation...
I think some people use a seasonal rotation. I like using A and B as the norm, just because I can listen rather than reading along and still know what to say when.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
originally posted by stonespring:
What are the relative frequencies of use of the Eucharistic Prayer options from the US Episcopal Church BCP 1979 (2 for Rite I and 4 (A, B, C,and D) for Rite II? Do certain parishes and certain priests tend to prefer certain Eucharistic Prayers over others? Are certain Eucharistic Prayers used more on certain occasions.
Depends on the parish
Usually
Yes
quote:
originally posted by stonespring:
As a non-Episcopalian, my obervation seems to be that Rite II, EP B is by far the most common. Is this true? Is this because it is the simplest and one that most priests know by heart, like with the RC EP II?
Rite II, EP A gets a bit more use than Rite II, EPB. A gets more use because it comes first and people know it by heart. B is similar. C and D are a bit more complicated and less familiar.
quote:
originally posted by stonespring:
Why have I never heard Rite II EP D? It's the only one based on the same source text as one of the post-Vatican II RC Ordinary Form EP's (IV).
Probably because you haven't attended an Episcopal church for a special enough occasion or with a priest wanting to impress with their chanting ability. I take it you must have heard Prayer C? For that I apologize.
quote:
originally posted by stonespring:
For Rite I, what EP is more common? Who tends to use which of the Rite I EP's and are there certain occasions where one is used more than the other?
As to Rite I, Prayer 1 gets used more often for two reasons. One, it comes first. Two, Prayer 1 is closer to the 1928 BCP and if you want Rite 1 chances are you want the closest thing you can get to the 28 BCP. If some priest uses one over the other because of the occasion, I'm not aware of it.
As for me...
When doing Rite 1, I use Prayer 1. When doing Rite II, I use Prayer A during Lent and Ordinary Time, Prayer B from Advent until Ash Wednesday, Prayer C on Rogation Sunday if at all, and Prayer D on Christmas Eve and during the Great 50 Days of Easter.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
We don't use Prayer C. Prayer D is used on high feasts, especially at the Solemn High Mass of same, such as our evening Mass on Ascension Day or the midnight Mass of Christmas.
Prayers A and B seem fairly evenly used. The sacristans may well follow a pattern for marking the missal for these; A in general seems to be for ferial use and B for feast days and in non-green seasons, but I haven't detected the pattern exactly.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
I have been attending the Episcopal Church more or less every Sunday for my entire life. And quite honestly, if you spun me around, blindfolded me, walked me into a church on a Sunday, had me sit through Mass, and then quizzed me about which prayer we used, I would only be 100% confident that I could properly identify C or D. A or B, it would be a coin toss, even though I would be a half a beat ahead of the congregation on all of the responses and would know exactly when the priest mangled the words.
That is a long way of saying that my gut reaction is that A is used more often than B, but I could be wrong. My place does seasonal rotation. I know that we use C during Lent, and D on special occasions (Christmas eve, the Easter Vigil, Maundi Thursday, All Saint's Day.) I believe that we use A during ordinary time, and I would not be surprised to find that we use B during Advent (that seems to be the pattern among rotational places, as B focuses on the incarnation more than A.)
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
The easiest was to tell A from B is the mystery of faith.
Prayer A: "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again."
Prayer B: "We remember his death, we proclaim his resurrection, we await his coming in glory."
Prayer C is identifiable by the Star Trek reference and excessive congregational responses, though "By his blood, he reconciled us, by his wounds, we are healed" is quite nice.
Prayer D sticks out by lasting forever.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
|
Posted
The last time my wife and I attended the Episcopal Church with any regularity (late '90s) - smallish parish in the South - we used B from Advent I through Epiphany, A for the Sundays in Lent, an experimental EP (our priest was a former RCC priest, and this came from his progressive days in that communion) using "O filii et filiae" as a refrain on several of the Sundays in Easter season, and D for the Vigil and Easter Sunday. The rest of the time, A and B in some sort of alternation. C, never, and we never used Rite I.
--------------------
"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
|
Posted
In my Anglo-Catholic parish, we use the Anglican Service Book, which provides traditional-language versions of all the lettered eucharistic prayers with some interpolations from the English Missal.
Prayers A and B tend to be used seasonally, with Prayer A predominant in Advent and Lent, and Prayer B at other times. The trimmed-down version of Prayer A, which might be described as "Cramner Lite", is also used from time to time, especially on weekdays.
--------------------
Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Swick
Shipmate
# 8773
|
Posted
In my experience Prayer B is the most common, followed by A and C. Years ago we used D during Eastertide.
I think Prayer C (also known as the Star Wars Prayer) get dismissed because of the line "this fragile earth our island home." I also find this a bit silly, but the rest of it is quite poetic. It also involves the congregation far more than any other, since there are multiple responses-at the very least it keeps peoples' attention.
We also use Eucharistic prayers from the supplemental materials in "Enriching Our Worship." They're ok, but I don't find them a vast improvement over the BCP.
Posts: 197 | From: Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
In my Anglo-Catholic parish, we use the Anglican Service Book, which provides traditional-language versions of all the lettered eucharistic prayers with some interpolations from the English Missal.
Except for C! (Which is more or less our number 4). They don't even bother trying to back-translate that one into Cranmerese.
Up here, I've noticed a marked preference for #3, the Hippolytan one, probably because it's the only one which takes a variable preface, though being too the only one with a reasonably robust epiclesis probably gives it a boost in the eyes of some as well.
[ 04. January 2014, 04:54: Message edited by: LQ ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mockingbird
Mimus polyglottos navis
# 5818
|
Posted
In 2012-2013, we used prayer B from the First Sunday of Advent until the Last Sunday after the Epiphany, prayer A in Lent, prayer C in the Fifty Days, and prayer A again beginning on Whitsunday until the end of the year. For 2013-2014 we have so far used prayer B.
I like how the opening of prayer C is in a rough iambic pentameter:
At yóur commánd áll things cáme to bé:
the vást expánse of ínterstéllar spáce,
gálaxies, súns, the plánets in their cóurses,
and thís frágile éarth, our ísland hóme.
--------------------
Forþon we sealon efestan þas Easterlican þing to asmeagenne and to gehealdanne, þaet we magon cuman to þam Easterlican daege, þe aa byð, mid fullum glaedscipe and wynsumnysse and ecere blisse.
Posts: 1443 | From: Between Broken Bow and Black Mesa | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
In the C of E isn't the EP in Common Worship with the same source text as TEC BCP '79 Rite II EP D (The Liturgy of St. Basil) used by those Anglo Papalists who don't go whole hog and use the Roman Rite (since it is very very similar to the Roman Missal EP IV)? Is this true at all in TEC? Or are there almost no priests left in TEC who prefer to use EPs that while canonically authorized in TEC are as similar as you can get to Roman Rite EPs?
BCP '79 Rite II EP B might be based on the same source text as Roman Missal EP II (Martyrdom of Polycarp?), but since that text is sparse to begin with, both churches have modified it so much that the resultant EPs are almost unrecognizeable as coming from the same text. (Correct me if I am wrong here). In the RCC, at least in the US, EP II is almost all one ever hears because it is the shortest, easily memorized, and doctrinally bland (very little mention of sacrifice, hosts and victims, offering the Mass for the salvation of souls, unworthiness, intercession of saints, etc.). It seems though, that TEC EP B is actually rather doctrinally rich from an Anglican perspective because it is Incarnational. I had assumed it was used a lot because no one noticed it or complained about it except traditionalists, like with Roman Missal EP II. But I seem to be wrong. Am I?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
[QB] In the C of E isn't the EP in Common Worship with the same source text as TEC BCP '79 Rite II EP D (The Liturgy of St. Basil) used by those Anglo Papalists who don't go whole hog and use the Roman Rite (since it is very very similar to the Roman Missal EP IV)? Is this true at all in TEC? Or are there almost no priests left in TEC who prefer to use EPs that while canonically authorized in TEC are as similar as you can get to Roman Rite EPs?
The '79 BCP enjoys nigh universal use across the theological spectrum in TEC. There is basically no equivalent of a "Roman Rite" here.
quote:
...TEC EP B is actually rather doctrinally rich from an Anglican perspective because it is Incarnational. I had assumed it was used a lot because no one noticed it or complained about it except traditionalists, like with Roman Missal EP II. But I seem to be wrong. Am I?
Despite what the schismatics might tell you, the orthodox doctrines of the Christian faith also enjoy nigh universal popularity in TEC, even when a girl or a homosexual is celebrating the Eucharist.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
In the C of E isn't the EP in Common Worship with the same source text as TEC BCP '79 Rite II EP D (The Liturgy of St. Basil) used by those Anglo Papalists who don't go whole hog and use the Roman Rite (since it is very very similar to the Roman Missal EP IV)?
In the RCC, at least in the US, EP II is almost all one ever hears because it is the shortest, easily memorized, and doctrinally bland (very little mention of sacrifice, hosts and victims, offering the Mass for the salvation of souls, unworthiness, intercession of saints, etc.).
I can't see why Anglo-Papalists in England would want to use a version of the Missal's EP IV, since - correct me if I am wrong - the Missal does not allow that Eucharistic Prayer to be used on a Sunday.
As far as EP's used in the US, I can only speak to my experience attending my spouse's parish, a cathedral in the Midwest. The Bishop, I gather, mandates EP I whenever there are the seasonal inserts. Otherwise, it's EP III, or one of the EP's for reconciliation - never II, never IV (I have rarely heard IV in any denomination where it or one of its variants is authorized, I always assumed, because of its length and lack of a variable preface).
--------------------
"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
- correct me if I am wrong - the Missal does not allow that Eucharistic Prayer to be used on a Sunday.
You are wrong. No such stipulation appears in the rubrics.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
In the C of E isn't the EP in Common Worship with the same source text as TEC BCP '79 Rite II EP D (The Liturgy of St. Basil) used by those Anglo Papalists who don't go whole hog and use the Roman Rite (since it is very very similar to the Roman Missal EP IV)?
In the RCC, at least in the US, EP II is almost all one ever hears because it is the shortest, easily memorized, and doctrinally bland (very little mention of sacrifice, hosts and victims, offering the Mass for the salvation of souls, unworthiness, intercession of saints, etc.).
I can't see why Anglo-Papalists in England would want to use a version of the Missal's EP IV, since - correct me if I am wrong - the Missal does not allow that Eucharistic Prayer to be used on a Sunday.
As far as EP's used in the US, I can only speak to my experience attending my spouse's parish, a cathedral in the Midwest. The Bishop, I gather, mandates EP I whenever there are the seasonal inserts. Otherwise, it's EP III, or one of the EP's for reconciliation - never II, never IV (I have rarely heard IV in any denomination where it or one of its variants is authorized, I always assumed, because of its length and lack of a variable preface).
I am not sure which EP in Common Worship is the one that C of E-canonically-observant priests use, but my superficial reading of them seems to indicate that the one like RC EP IV is as close to something canonically allowed by both denominations as you can get. Maybe I am wrong, though, because Common Worship and the canons of the C of E are pretty complicated and I am a definite outsider!
I have been to RC Mass in New York, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Washington, DC, Florida, Colorado, and California (and have lived in five of those states/districts) - and in all those places, EP II was the norm with few exceptions (those priests and parishes, a small minority, who make a point of using anything else). The GIRM (the preface of rubrics before the liturgy parts of the Missal) does indeed indicate that EP II should not be used often if at all on Sundays, and EP IV should also only be used on Sundays occasionally, but I have rarely seen this interpreted in a way that required enforcement. Your bishop might be part of a trend that was gaining steam under Benedict XVI. I am not sure if that trend will continue under Francis.
Note: Despite my radical inclinations, I really think EP I and EP III should be the norm. I also don't understand why the "EP I with additions from modern liturgical scholarship like an explicitly pneumatic consecratory epiclesis" EP (namely, EP II) cut so much good material out of EP I. But that's a tangent.
It's sad that in the RCC, EPs are politicized. A lot of people in the pews feel uncomfortable hearing the language of EP I because they are unfamiliar with it or its length and think it must mean the priest is going to start calling them out on their remarriages after divorce, unmarried cohabitation, sex before marriage, use of birth control, etc. There are, of course, liberal priests who use EP I for at least special occasions and like EP III at other times, but they are the minority and often come from a very educated background or a religious order.
I think a lot of priests and laypeople like that EP II is short and simple enough for laypeople to memorize without having ever seen it on paper. This is less true with the new translation, but still significant. Most catholics understand enough about the ministerial priesthood to not try to say the EP out loud, but quite a few who aren't really liberal at all do mouth the words of EP II from time to time while the priest says it (not to make any political statement, but just because it is comforting) and not a few say the doxology (Through Him and with Him and in Him...) out loud. I don't really think this is a good thing but quite a few priests disagree and think that the entire ordinary of the Mass should be known by heart by the laypeople - so it should be simple and shouldn't vary too much. These same priests use proper prefaces with EP II (which they are allowed to do in the GIRM), though.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
- correct me if I am wrong - the Missal does not allow that Eucharistic Prayer to be used on a Sunday.
You are wrong. No such stipulation appears in the rubrics.
Yes, I was incorrect - but it does seem that there are restrictions on its use on Sundays.
http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/when-eucharistic-prayer-iv-can-be-used
--------------------
"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
In my Anglo-Catholic parish, we use the Anglican Service Book, which provides traditional-language versions of all the lettered eucharistic prayers with some interpolations from the English Missal.
Except for C! (Which is more or less our number 4). They don't even bother trying to back-translate that one into Cranmerese.
Until our most recent rector retired, our parish used C mostly during Lent because (despite the space lingo) there's a penitential emphasis to some of the language. At one time someone converted it into Rite I language. What grated on me was that our priest would say "we who HATH been redeemed" when it should be "we who HAVE" just like in modern English!
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Until our most recent rector retired, our parish used C mostly during Lent because (despite the space lingo) there's a penitential emphasis to some of the language. At one time someone converted it into Rite I language. What grated on me was that our priest would say "we who HATH been redeemed" when it should be "we who HAVE" just like in modern English!
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) I cannot even imagine C in faux-Elizabethan English.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
I cannot even imagine C in faux-Elizabethan English.
It already sounds dated as it is...sort of 1960s school science films narration: The vast expanse of interstellar space! And this fragile Earth, our island home! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
Did they use obsolete concepts of the cosmos in that old-school re-wording, or just old school language to describe the 1970s vision of the Universe? Either way it seems like they were trying to put a square peg through a round hole.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
Will the next round of EP options include references to string theory, multiverses, dark matter, dark energy, the Higgs Boson, or, for that matter, anthropogenic climate change?
I'm not sure if composing new EPs is ever a good idea, but when a denomination does, it should try to use language that seems too rooted in current events or current scientific discoveries.
Imagine if eucharistic prayers composed in earlier centuries mentioned bodily humours, ether as the fifth element, etc.? I don't think anything in EP C will be found to be scientifically inaccurate but you still need to be careful.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Will the next round of EP options include references to string theory, multiverses, dark matter, dark energy, the Higgs Boson, or, for that matter, anthropogenic climate change?
I think the odds of a climate change reference in the next round are probably higher than the odds of the next Pope being Catholic.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
Does anyone know what the thinking was behind each of the "new" EPs in BCP '79? Who composed them, what they wanted the new prayers to reflect as opposed to other prayers, and what occasions they thought the new prayers would be good for. Also, what source texts did they use when they did use them? (I have already mentioned the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil for Rite II EP D, and Rite II EP A is often called Cranmer Lite, but still if anyone knows more details about the sources that were used for any of the prayers, please do share).
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
Hatchett's Commentary give as a backgrounder for each of the Rite II prayers on pp. 374-8. As you note, A is apparently meant to be the more straightforward contemporary adaptation of the traditional Scots-American canon (and so perhaps might more aptly - today especially! - be "Laud Lite"). Howard Galley adapted the preface. B draws on two prayers from 'Services for Trial Use' (one based on Hippolytus, the other a draft by Archbishop Griswold). C was drafted by Galley on Eastern models.
Of D, he explains that it was the work of an ecumenical committee of scholars looking to find a common Eucharistic Prayer which might find authorization in all major church bodies. Up to the institution narrative itself, it's a translation of the Latin in the corresponding prayer of the modern Roman Sacramentary. After that it blends the Roman recension with earlier textual variants.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Hatchett's Commentary give as a backgrounder for each of the Rite II prayers on pp. 374-8. As you note, A is apparently meant to be the more straightforward contemporary adaptation of the traditional Scots-American canon (and so perhaps might more aptly - today especially! - be "Laud Lite"). Howard Galley adapted the preface. B draws on two prayers from 'Services for Trial Use' (one based on Hippolytus, the other a draft by Archbishop Griswold). C was drafted by Galley on Eastern models.
Of D, he explains that it was the work of an ecumenical committee of scholars looking to find a common Eucharistic Prayer which might find authorization in all major church bodies. Up to the institution narrative itself, it's a translation of the Latin in the corresponding prayer of the modern Roman Sacramentary. After that it blends the Roman recension with earlier textual variants.
What were the source texts (if any), authors/compilers, philosophy behind, and ideas for when it should be used for the second EP Option in Rite I?
[ 10. January 2014, 17:16: Message edited by: stonespring ]
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
It's "a revised version of Prayer I, based on a draft by the Very Rev. Dr Robert H. Greenfield," "enriched" with "references ... to the creation and incarnation, and ... to the Second Coming". The 1549/1637 "result clause" ("that they may be unto us ...") replaces "the 1552 petition for worthy reception." Hatchett notes, "Some of these changes were proposed as early as Prayer Book Studies IV (1953), and many were included in The Liturgy of the Lord's Supper (1967)."
As an aside, it's interesting to me that 1979 uses letters for the Rite II prayers and numbers the ones in Rite I. In the BAS, the contemporary language prayers are numbered, while the traditional language has prayer A (1962 with the interpolation of a congregational accclamation) and B (a tinkered version of the American prayer I which I can only ever recall hearing at St Mary Mag).
[ 11. January 2014, 16:04: Message edited by: LQ ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
Until our most recent rector retired, our parish used C mostly during Lent because (despite the space lingo) there's a penitential emphasis to some of the language. At one time someone converted it into Rite I language. What grated on me was that our priest would say "we who HATH been redeemed" when it should be "we who HAVE" just like in modern English!
I cannot even imagine C in faux-Elizabethan English.
Well in Latin it's apparently
"Mandato tuo, omnia facta sunt: magnum expansum caelorum, orbes lactaei, stellae, planetae, et haec terra fragilis, patria insula nostra."
Is it forbidden to use another country's services (even if it's Anglican)? It's a shame this is never heard in England?
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Swick
Shipmate
# 8773
|
Posted
In the Episcopal Diocese of Massachusetts, there is blanket approval to use liturgical texts from the Anglican Church of Canada. Less often, sometimes texts from Common Worship from the CoE and from the Scottish Episcopal Church are also used.
Posts: 197 | From: Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Did they use obsolete concepts of the cosmos in that old-school re-wording, or just old school language to describe the 1970s vision of the Universe? Either way it seems like they were trying to put a square peg through a round hole.
No, pretty much just changing the verb endings and pronouns. Fair point, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
It already sounds dated as it is...sort of 1960s school science films narration: The vast expanse of interstellar space! And this fragile Earth, our island home! [/QB]
Actually, this weekend I was having a conversation with a priest who remarked that the Earth isn't all that "fragile," to which I agreed as the Earth would probably get along just fine without us!
--------------------
Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
Posts: 1157 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
I have visited my fair share of Episcopal churches. This is what I've discovered in this corner of TEC:
Euch Prayer A--by far the norm
Euch Prayer B--a close second, common for Advent through Epiphany season.
Euch Prayer C--only encountered once by me. We gathered in a circle around the freestanding altar, if that tells you anything about the church that used it
Euch Prayer D--encountered several times that can be described as special celebrations and high feasts that don't get much attendance
[ 13. May 2014, 01:50: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
|
Posted
With Ascension fast approaching, please translate (into Latin) Jesus' words, Beam me up, Scotty !
--------------------
Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
With Ascension fast approaching, please translate (into Latin) Jesus' words, Beam me up, Scotty !
"Me teleporte, Caledonielle!"
(Conjugating teleporto, teleportare by analogy to porto, portare, and deriving Caledoniellus as the diminutive of Caledonius)
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
With Ascension fast approaching, please translate (into Latin) Jesus' words, Beam me up, Scotty !
The one I've seen most often is:
Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
With Ascension fast approaching, please translate (into Latin) Jesus' words, Beam me up, Scotty !
The one I've seen most often is:
Me transmitte sursum, Caledoni!
People are quoting Star Trek in Latin? Clearly I have associated myself with the wrong social circle! The only thing that might make me happier would be a secondary audio feed of the Big Bang Theory in Esperanto.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
I think there may be better places to talk about Latin texts for Star Trek...
seasick, Eccles host
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
|
Posted
Looking over all of the posts, I find it interesting that the OP was about TEC eucharistic prayers, but the thread has included digressions about other Anglican churches, and Catholic eucharistic prayers (no complaints, I found it all fascinating). But - there are three other eucharistic prayers authorized by the Episcopal Church, in "Enriching Our Worship," and there has been nary a mention of these. Since at least one of these dates back to 1997 - 17 years ago - is it possible that these prayers simply have not gained traction? In the intro to the most recent edition of that volume, there are comments to the effect that, the powers that be cannot effectively develop new materials without feedback from worshiping congregations (which it implies they have not been getting). This Lutheran attends Episcopal churches perhaps 4-5 times a year, so I cannot effectively comment on who might be using these prayers.
My sense is that the 1979 BCP pretty much missed the boat when it came to non-gendered language - it was just a bit too early, and it is this that EoW is primarily trying to address.
--------------------
"I prefer neurotic people; I like to hear rumblings beneath the surface." Stephen Sondheim
Posts: 386 | From: Between two big lakes | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
LostinChelsea
Shipmate
# 5305
|
Posted
Sonata3 raises good points about the supplemental prayers from Enriching Our Worship. Ask most Episcopal clergy and I'll bet you'll find that most don't quite know the canonical status of those prayers. Originally, the idea was that you could use them if your bishop allowed and, I believe, not at the primary service on Sunday. I once amused myself by asking several liturgy types at a seminary gathering on the canonical status of EOW Eucharistic prayers. I was told by all to ask my bishop. In other words, they didn't know.
Another issue is the format. They're in little booklety things, not really intended to be in pew racks. So if you're a parish that doesn't normally do a full-text bulletin, it's a significant change to use an alternate liturgy one Sunday or one season. Sounds minor, but little things can make a big difference.
The problem with feedback from parishes is that there's no useful mechanism. When a trial liturgy goes out, as with EOW, there doesn't seem to be a system for reissue with changes or edits.
I've used EOW materials, mostly in out-of-parish settings. Some of the non-Eucharistic prayer materials are particularly interesting, such as the funeral prayers for the death of a child.
--------------------
Best when taken in moderation.
Posts: 237 | From: Deep South USA | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
My sense is that the 1979 BCP pretty much missed the boat when it came to non-gendered language - it was just a bit too early, and it is this that EoW is primarily trying to address.
Some progress was made, though, which becomes clear if you compare the 1979 BCP with the "Green Book," "Zebra Book," and other authorized prelims. Also the Prayer Book Psalter Revised by the psalter committee that included W H Auden. The final revision for the approved BCP did a definite sweep for a certain level of gender-inclusivity. Mainly it got rid of the generic use of "man," which became very exclusive-sounding during a relatively short period in the 1970s.
[ 15. May 2014, 16:41: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sonata3:
But - there are three other eucharistic prayers authorized by the Episcopal Church, in "Enriching Our Worship," and there has been nary a mention of these. Since at least one of these dates back to 1997 - 17 years ago - is it possible that these prayers simply have not gained traction?
We rotate our Eucharistic Prayers seasonally, and use a couple of them during the "green" seasons. That includes prayers A, B, and C and Eucharistic Prayer 1 from EoW. (I think we do Prayer D once a year, which I find more than sufficient.)
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
Ask most Episcopal clergy and I'll bet you'll find that most don't quite know the canonical status of those prayers.
I can't speak for my US colleagues, but I tend to turn a deaf eye [sic] to the canons because
- They're so bloody bewildering they make Nag Hammadi look like Four Spiritual Laws
- They're so bloody pedantic they make Sharia Law look inviting, and
- market forces (what the people like and/or write settings for) tend to dictate choices far more effectively than some obscure paragraph under Section 5 Subsection D clause 8 Point 3(a) of The Stupid Legislations about How to Pray Act hereinafter called "Stupid Nit-picking regulations made on the hoof at a 1970s Synod"
But you know. That's just me.
--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
Quotes File!
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
How common is it for the portions of the Eucharistic prayers in parentheses to be used?
Specifically, the ones that mention the Blessed Virgin Mary, Apostles, and any other Saints, ones that allow for prayer for specific people, etc.
I had always heard the optional text for the BVM used until I went to the church where I live now. That church has a high church congregation and a low church rector that just retired. Everywhere where there was a prayer (eucharistic or not) that had a phrase "with (the Blessed Virgin Mary and....) and all the Saints", the rector or person praying always went straight to "and all the Saints."
Is this an exclusively low Church thing to omit these optional parts or is it more MOTR?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
|
Posted
I have only heard low church types omit the BVM. Broad types always seem to say it, as obviously the high do.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
How common is it for the portions of the Eucharistic prayers in parentheses to be used?
Our standard use of this is generally thus:
"...the ever-blessed Virgin Mary; St. Anne, her mother; St. Michael the Archangel, our patron, and all your saints..."
St. Anne is represented because of the Order of St. Anne, whose Chicago convent is next door to the church.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
|
Posted
In paying attention this week, at the National Cathedral they say
"with the ever-blessed Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus, Peter, Paul and all your saints . . ."
Since Peter and Paul are their patrons, that makes sense.
I always wondered if there was a hierarchy when it came to inserting them. It seems that Mary is always (most always) first and then the patron(s) of the church, and then I can't tell.
Posts: 139 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
Wonder if anyone in TEC has publically tweaked it to "the blessed ever-Virgin Mary."
ASAIK, the phrase "ever-blessed Virgin Mary" is a TEC creation.
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
BulldogSacristan
Shipmate
# 11239
|
Posted
We call her ever-Virgin all the time at my parish, and it's definitely in the Episcopal Church. Her shrine calls her "semper virgo" too. We also call Joseph, "her most chaste spouse," which I suppose only follows, but I don't like that as much. It seems rude and unnecessary to pry into their sex life or something.
Posts: 197 | From: Boston, Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
evalynchillis
Apprentice
# 18116
|
Posted
We need pay attention to our appearance with changing our monologue hair style in to fashionable one or wearing glamorous clothes and shoes. However we shouldn't ignore the daily security in our life such as the GPS tracking or other method used by someone to steal our privacy. Therefore a phone blocker with a good function of cutting off cell phone signals as well as other frequency bands signals can help to create the security system to protect us. And then we can enjoy the quiet and peaceful environment. You can also know how to block cell phone signal with the help of signal jammer from <bot link removed>
[ 27. May 2014, 07:25: Message edited by: seasick ]
Posts: 1 | From: chicago | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
