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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Can we quarantine idiocy?
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I've long suspected that many of my countrypersons are idiots, possibly including me. Now, it appears, we are all in hot competition with one another to become potentially lethal idiots.
First up: the hospital emergency room to which Thomas Duncan, late of Liberia, turned when he became ill and who, despite his informing them he had just traveled from West Africa, sent him home with antibiotics guaranteed to have zero effect on any kind of viral infection, least of all ebola;
Second: the very same hospital, which apparently exposed who knows how many other already sick people to Duncan’s rapidly-developing ebola symptoms; Third: the self-same hospital sending health care personnel in to care for Duncan with inadequate protective gear, resulting in two nurses becoming infected with ebola;
Fourth: the hospital, or simple common sense, failing to keep allegedly “closely monitored” exposed personnel from boarding planes to travel out-of-state while still potentially incubating a disease which WHO estimates has a 70% mortality rate;
And last but far from least and fifth: the fucking glamormedics & crews sent by their conglomerate media bosses into the hot zones where (A) they probably get massively in the way of desperate efforts to save sick locals, and then (B) get exposed, and who then, during the 21-day quarantine afterward (while the virus could be incubating), casually stroll into public restaurants to have a bite.
What is wrong with these damn fools?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I think it's first-world arrogance. A doctor, IIRC, was critiquing the situation on NPR today: the US medical folks in charge thought the epidemic took such a hold in Africa because of poverty, ignorance, and lack of technology; and they arrogantly assumed that US medicine is "all that" (not the doc's wording), and everything would be fine.
And someone (either the head of the hospital, or of the CDC) blamed the nurse who got sick. I know that at least one nurse spoke up, in the news, and slammed him for that, saying that the nurses weren't given proper training. (And that makes me wonder if the lower-ranking staff--cleaners, launderers, etc.--are given proper equipment and training.)
AFAICS, no one in charge has covered themselves with glory.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
It's the inherent human belief that it always happens to someone else and given it doesn't that it will still all work out in the end.
An attitude which sometimes gets ourselves and others killed, but may ultimately keep us sane.
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
yes - I was looking at that - if the US escapes with a minor localised outbreak affecting a handful of people it will be considered to have more combined luck than the annual chinese factory output of coin-eating cats and plastic goldfish. The alternative to this possible run of luck is not pretty.
Joking aside, I guess that the UK has sent 750 troops over there to help so they get experience so they can then be brought home to train other people if necessary.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I think it's first-world arrogance. A doctor, IIRC, was critiquing the situation on NPR today: the US medical folks in charge thought the epidemic took such a hold in Africa because of poverty, ignorance, and lack of technology; and they arrogantly assumed that US medicine is "all that" (not the doc's wording), and everything would be fine.
I agree,and it's an approach that is reflected elsewhere in foreign policy. Parachute management. Well-intentioned but veiled in over-confidence because "it's a long way away" and won't affect us back home.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And someone (either the head of the hospital, or of the CDC) blamed the nurse who got sick.
That was distasteful in the extreme. The haste with which the responsibility was passed down to the victim was scandalous blame-shifting. The announcement within a few hours of the diagnosis that someone had "made a mistake" (i.e. it was individual-based, not process-based) set alarm-bells ringing in my head when I saw it. There was also a strong whiff of "we know what's going down, so you ordinary folks don't need to bother us with questions about it - move along, nothing to see here, bit of a panic, not a pandemic."
Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
They've since suggested that the haz-mat suits (or the way they're worn?) leave a gap on the neck.
I've been wondering if there's a problem with the fabric of the suits--maybe not as impermeable as people were told; or some sort of shady deal with the manufacturers, due to budget cuts or greed...
Perhaps a "follow the money" situation, combined with what I call "conspiracies of incompetence and stupidity".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
They've since suggested that the haz-mat suits (or the way they're worn?) leave a gap on the neck.
I've been wondering if there's a problem with the fabric of the suits--maybe not as impermeable as people were told; or some sort of shady deal with the manufacturers, due to budget cuts or greed...
Perhaps a "follow the money" situation, combined with what I call "conspiracies of incompetence and stupidity".
If you look at the photos from Liberia, people wear Haz suits and ALSO have a rubberised helmet and cape that has about a 6 inch overlap onto the suit round the neck
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Whilst I agree that quarantining idiocy is a really good idea I reckon you'd need half the planet to hold them all!
Nothing to do with Ebola but just driving into town 3 times today half the drivers on the road need locking away on the grounds of public safety - then all the politicians of any country!
Where would it all end?
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
They've since suggested that the haz-mat suits (or the way they're worn?) leave a gap on the neck.
I've been wondering if there's a problem with the fabric of the suits--maybe not as impermeable as people were told; or some sort of shady deal with the manufacturers, due to budget cuts or greed...
Perhaps a "follow the money" situation, combined with what I call "conspiracies of incompetence and stupidity".
As I understand it, Ms. Pham didn't have a true haz-mat suit. They gave her so sort of coverall that didn't have an encasing hood, and she wore a face mask, a face shield and double gloves. (There was an illustrative video about wearing and removing the covering clothes on CNN that unfortunately has been replaced by Anderson Cooper interviewing the doctor who did the demo instead of the demo itself). I'm not even sure she had proper shoe covers on. Some Dallas nurses are claiming that when they complained that their necks were exposed, they were told to wrap them in medical tape (!) Good luck in getting that stuff off safely after a shift. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Whilst I agree that quarantining idiocy is a really good idea I reckon you'd need half the planet to hold them all!
Make that the whole planet, and call it Genesis 1-3.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
Certainly plenty of idiocy.
I do wonder how much the fact that Thomas Duncan did not have health insurance played into some of the initial errors. Also how much lack of insurance might play down the road (e.g., people afraid that what they think might be a simple flu but it gets treated as potential Ebola will land them with a huge bill).
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Good point Net Spinster. I doubt that they kept anyone waiting because of insurance, (busy ER personnel don't take time to find such things out from the receptionist) but I can see the uninsured delaying seeking care for this, just as they naturally tend to do for most illnesses.
I saw an article last week where the powers that be were telling us all not to "shun," people who had been around the infected man. Um hmmm. Invite them over for dinner and have them hold the baby.
I no longer believe half of what we're told on issues like this. For a long time our government has seemed to fear "panic," over everything else. I say we have a right to know the truth and a right to panic if we are then so inclined.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Certainly plenty of idiocy.
I do wonder how much the fact that Thomas Duncan did not have health insurance played into some of the initial errors. Also how much lack of insurance might play down the road (e.g., people afraid that what they think might be a simple flu but it gets treated as potential Ebola will land them with a huge bill).
Another reason the NHS is a far better system than having to buy insurance.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
My grandfather was a doctor in the field of public health, and so was one of my uncles. There used to be a government agency (I don't remember what it was called) consisting of doctors and other medical personnel who had very specific knowledge about how to deal with contagious diseases, how to trace the source of water-bourne illness, and how to trace the source of mass food-poisoning. They would send experts wherever they were needed.
Since they had only one job, they kept their eyes closely on it. This unit was subsumed into the Center for Disease Control when it was formed. The CDC had many other tasks, and the higher-ups apparently did not realize that the public health required that they pay very careful attention to what the epidemiologists said.
The CDC higher-ups went in for empire building. They said that obesity was a serious public health problem, and they started spending money trying to solve the problem. Unfortunately, in contrast to epidemiology, there is no body of expert knowledge on how to cure obesity. The more tasks the CDC found for itself, the smaller the amount of attention they paid to contagious diseases.
I have frankly feared and expected this scenario for years. I think the long-term solution to restore the former independence of the group responsible for epidemics, etc.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Wow, Moo. That pop was the burst of a big ol' bubble of mine. I first heard of the CDC in Stephen King's The Stand and thought it sounded like the coolest place. I thought epidemics were what they were all about.
Obesity. Wouldn't you just know? I'm so tired of hearing about that. My fat may be the only thing that saves me now that Ebola's come to my area --all for the sake of a wedding shower.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
To be fair to the hospital, the chances of someone turning up in their ER with Ebola, even if they'd just come in from west Africa, is very low. Ebola has a high fatality rate, but is not very easily transmitted without direct contact with body fluids. The current outbreak has about 4500 confirmed fatalities and about 10,000 suspected cases. Assume that there are maybe 50,000 cases in total (a 20% reporting rate within a region where vigilance is high is probably the bottom end of the range), that's a very small proportion of the population. Someone in Texas recently arrived from West Africa showing a fever is much more likely to have malaria, cholera, 'flu or several other infections. Of course "here's some anti-biotics, now go home" isn't the right treatment for any of them either. But, on readmission it should have been clear that it was a much more serious infection and adequate precautions should have been immediately put in place. The actions of the hospital, at least as reported, following readmission are reprehensible.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I say we have a right to know the truth and a right to panic if we are then so inclined.
And I say most people don't bother with finding out the truth before heading straight to the panic part.
Minor details such as ebola not being airborne (unlike colds and flu) and ebola patients not being infectious before they have symptoms (unlike many diseases) tend to be overlooked so that we can have great big bold headlines about the horrors of an ebola-infected nurse being on a flight.
It's true that she probably shouldn't have been on the flight, but her being on the flight does not actually create much of a chance of infection. Unless she was shaking vials of her sweat over all the other passengers.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
That's the thing, though--AIUI, we leave our bio bits all over the place. So there'll be at least traces of sweat, blood (if there's broken skin), urine and poop (leakage, etc.), spit, mucus...
I don't know how *much* of a bodily fluid is needed to pass on the virus. My understanding is that HIV doesn't require much at all. (E.g., medical folks who are accidentally punctured with a used needle.)
And viruses do change and adapt.
Not freaking out; just wondering out loud. YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
And viruses do change and adapt.
It's been amusingly observed that various conservatives suddenly believe in evolution when it comes to the possibility of Ebola mutating to completely change its mode of transmission.
It's never happened with any other virus. Mutations happen, yes, but not that kind of fundamental shift.
Oh, and if you're leaving traces of your urine, blood and poop on planes when you travel, I'm surprised you haven't been banned by any airlines yet. This is just silly. The main trace you leave of yourself as you go about your daily business is skin cells.
[ 17. October 2014, 09:39: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh look, just read the summary.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I understand why Ebola frightens people. It is a truly terrifying disease. BUT there is no reason for a major outbreak in the developed world. In Nigeria (a fairly prosperous African country), it’s been successfully brought under control by applying the proper procedures. The reason for the rapid transmission in West Africa is that there is pretty much no functioning medical infrastructure.
There’s always going to be some human error – the Spanish nurse who contracted it thinks she may have touched her face with her gloves, for example – and that’s a tragedy for the people concerned, but with proper isolation of patients, a major outbreak can be stopped.
The reason for the transmission in the US is that the authorities have been staggeringly incompetent. In West Africa, there have been at least 10000 cases, possibly far more, and 240 medical workers have contracted it. Which my crappy maths skills tell me is about 2%. In the US, there have been a handful of cases, and it’s been passed on to as many medical personnel.
Added to which - who the hell lets a person get on an aeroplane when they’ve been in direct contact with an Ebola patient and they’re reporting a high temperature?
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I'm not in a panic over ebola and last week I was laughing at the news stations for talking about it, non stop. I even had a cartoon stuck on the refrigerator of a man surrounded by dire statistics about other diseases, while screaming "Ebola!"
All I'm saying is that if there is reason to worry we should be told. Instead we saw and heard, over and over and over, things like Orfeo's link, that imply it is almost impossible to catch.
So this week's question is: If it really is that hard to catch, then why did professional medical people in protective gear, manage to catch it?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
So this week's question is: If it really is that hard to catch, then why did professional medical people in protective gear, manage to catch it?
Because they weren't all that 'professional' and their gear wasn't all that 'protective'.
The fact is that caring for a person already sick with the disease is far and away the highest risk situation. You've got a high risk of contact with their sweat because they have a fever and are sweating. In later stages you've got a high risk of contact with blood because one of the symptoms is external bleeding, such as around the eyes.
That IS a high risk situation. The reason most of us shouldn't be worrying is because most of us are not involved with the care of feverish, bleeding people. The falsity in the reasoning comes from concluding that nurses in hospitals are equivalent to ourselves, or that if the 'professionals' get it that us non-professionals are at higher risk. The reality is that the professionals are putting themselves in the way of exposure risks that are far greater than the ordinary population will experience.
[ 17. October 2014, 10:38: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
I have just learned that when the CDC first heard that there was an Ebola patient in California, they did not immediately send an agent to observe, gather information, and advise the hospital on safety procedures. This is staggering incompetence. The CDC's job is to support local health authorities who do not have CDC's resources.
There is also a question about whether the nurses who tended the patient in the first days were given all the protective gear they needed. If someone from the CDC had been there, he would have made sure they had proper protection.
As far as the question of airborne transmission is concerned, some authorities think it can be spread if an infected person sneezes on someone else.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
As far as the question of airborne transmission is concerned, some authorities think it can be spread if an infected person sneezes on someone else.
The fact that it takes Ebola for sneezing on other people to suddenly be not okay speaks volumes. Weren't people taught not to do this to avoid giving people ordinary colds? I was taught as a child to turn the other way and to use a handkerchief or tissues!
[ 17. October 2014, 10:58: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
The reason for the transmission in the US is that the authorities have been staggeringly incompetent. In West Africa, there have been at least 10000 cases, possibly far more, and 240 medical workers have contracted it. Which my crappy maths skills tell me is about 2%. In the US, there have been a handful of cases, and it’s been passed on to as many medical personnel.
First many of the cases/deaths in West Africa may not have been near a hospital. The known death toll is 4,493 of whom 236 were health care workers (the latter would not include traditional healers or people who caught it caring for their own family members). West Africa also starts with a very low number of doctors and nurses (Liberia for instance has/had about 250 doctors total for 3.5 million people) so the percentage of health care workers killed is far higher than the percentage of the general population.
Being extremely carefully (and having the supplies to be extremely carefully) does cut down the transmission when giving medical care (MSF has had a very low rate). The initial US response to an unexpected Ebola case has been less than competent perhaps in part due to lack of supplies on hand (there has been no transmission when the patient was known to have Ebola when airlifted to the US).
BTW the
H5N1 blog is a useful clearing house on information about Ebola and other infectious outbreaks.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
It's true that she probably shouldn't have been on the flight, but her being on the flight does not actually create much of a chance of infection. Unless she was shaking vials of her sweat over all the other passengers.
Until or unless it's possible to accurately predict the precise course of the disease, she certainly shouldn't have been cleared to fly. Plus she's a nurse; she ought to have kept herself off the flight. AIUI, fever IS a symptom of ebola; therefore she was symptomatic, and knew she'd been exposed to a deadly virus.
While she had not yet progressed to the body-fluid-emitting stage, who knows how quickly any one patient might progress from mildly-elevated temperature to profuse sweating, vomiting, or diarrhea? I certainly don't know this, and likely the time lapse can vary considerably from one patient to the next. A 3-hour airline flight might be enough.
[ 17. October 2014, 13:58: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
Meanwhile, a lab technician who may have handled Duncan's infected specimens takes an ocean cruise. What next? Will they go into public restaurants and lick the silverware?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
This article about the cruise ship contains the following quote:
quote:
"We are working with the cruise line to safely bring them back to the United States out of an abundance of caution," Psaki said in the statement.
Where was all this caution when the worker who may have handled Duncan's specimens boarded the %$%#! cruise?
I grant you, he isn't symptomatic, and he's nearly at the end of the 21-day incubation period, and subjecting him to isolation is probably useless at this point, but shouldn't "self-monitoring" include a proviso to limit contact and avoid travel for at least 21 days after possible exposure?
[ 17. October 2014, 16:49: Message edited by: Porridge ]
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
Certainly plenty of idiocy.
I do wonder how much the fact that Thomas Duncan did not have health insurance played into some of the initial errors. Also how much lack of insurance might play down the road (e.g., people afraid that what they think might be a simple flu but it gets treated as potential Ebola will land them with a huge bill).
Another reason the NHS is a far better system than having to buy insurance.
Don't let anyone talk you out of that, either.
Someone upthread mentioned the lack of communication in the CDC-- or to it, or from it-- and I want to smack my head against the wall. This us exactly the same bullshit that went down with AIDS. People were allowed to panic and speculate for a good two years after the method of transmission was determined, until C. Everett Cook finally said " fuck this" and defied chain of command to give the American people clear, accurate information.
[ 17. October 2014, 17:07: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oh, here it is: quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Someone I know keeps reminding everyone whenever we complain about how Dallas Presby handled things that they are level 2 biosafety facility not a level 4. Level 4 is what you need to deal with infectious diseases like ebola. Big institutions don't tend to communicate well, and are not made for precision unless they are particularly focused on that area, as a level 4 facility would be. If you ask me, the worst mistake the hospital made was thinking they could handle Duncan.
The " not communicating well" is simultaneously the easiest fix and the most difficult fix-- doesn't matter how much communicating will help if nobody does it!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
This article about the cruise ship contains the following quote:
quote:
"We are working with the cruise line to safely bring them back to the United States out of an abundance of caution," Psaki said in the statement.
Where was all this caution when the worker who may have handled Duncan's specimens boarded the %$%#! cruise?
I grant you, he isn't symptomatic, and he's nearly at the end of the 21-day incubation period, and subjecting him to isolation is probably useless at this point, but shouldn't "self-monitoring" include a proviso to limit contact and avoid travel for at least 21 days after possible exposure?
It appears that is not the advice for category 2 exposure .
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
This us exactly the same bullshit that went down with AIDS. People were allowed to panic and speculate for a good two years after the method of transmission was determined, until C. Everett Cook finally said " fuck this" and defied chain of command to give the American people clear, accurate information.
I know you meant C. Everett Koop. And I'm surprised that no one has pointed out that all this talk of appointing an "ebola czar" would be unnecessary if we had a surgeon general in place today, instead of a candidate whose confirmation has been stalled because he dared speak the truth about guns.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Unforgiveable. He's my hero ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Also, regarding surgeon general slot: fuck fuck fuck fuck FUCK!
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Someone I know keeps reminding everyone whenever we complain about how Dallas Presby handled things that they are level 2 biosafety facility not a level 4. Level 4 is what you need to deal with infectious diseases like ebola. Big institutions don't tend to communicate well, and are not made for precision unless they are particularly focused on that area, as a level 4 facility would be. If you ask me, the worst mistake the hospital made was thinking they could handle Duncan.
I know this "any hospital can do this" was circulating around in the ether before this, but yeah. Especially after their previous communication screw-up.
(I worked at a biotech firm that had a Level 3 lab because people were working with live TB virus. The protocols were pretty strict from what I understand. I never got near it.)
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
I have just learned that when the CDC first heard that there was an Ebola patient in California, they did not immediately send an agent to observe, gather information, and advise the hospital on safety procedures. This is staggering incompetence. The CDC's job is to support local health authorities who do not have CDC's resources.
There is also a question about whether the nurses who tended the patient in the first days were given all the protective gear they needed. If someone from the CDC had been there, he would have made sure they had proper protection.
Yep, a "go team/tiger team" from CDC out to Dallas would have been the way to do this.
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves: re: the NHS
Don't let anyone talk you out of that, either.
I am now of the opinion that it doesn't matter what we think or say, we are going to be landed with not having it any more. We have people closely associated with the "government" who are also deeply involved with "health provider" companies with close links to private similar in the US.
It doesn't matter what us Morlocks think, and we don't even have the Morlocks' sanction over the lizard class. They do anything that enters their tiny minds, and claim the mystical mandate even if they did not have a majority in the election, and never mentioned it in the manifesto.
I just hope their incompetence doesn't land us with an outbreak. They are currently scaring us with the possibility that illegal immigrants could bring it in at Dover. As someone has sensibly pointed out, getting, on foot and via death ships, from West Africa would take longer than the incubation period. They would have died before reaching us.
[ 17. October 2014, 19:54: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
It doesn't matter what us Morlocks think, and we don't even have the Morlocks' sanction over the lizard class. They do anything that enters their tiny minds, and claim the mystical mandate even if they did not have a majority in the election, and never mentioned it in the manifesto.
Quotes file.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Reading that advice document, I realise two things. One, I haven't heard anything in the broadcast media about the longevity of the virus in semen. Two, nothing is said about female secretions. It looks as thought there could be a window by which the virus could migrate as an STD if care is not taken with recovered patients.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Reading that advice document, I realise two things. One, I haven't heard anything in the broadcast media about the longevity of the virus in semen. Two, nothing is said about female secretions. It looks as thought there could be a window by which the virus could migrate as an STD if care is not taken with recovered patients.
A BBC article had a comment to that effect
bbc
See the 'how not to catch ebola'
Presumably there's some room for error there, so less than 3 months.
Also I'm not sure if that applies to your point 'Two' or just point 'One'.
[ 17. October 2014, 21:24: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
This article about the cruise ship contains the following quote:
quote:
"We are working with the cruise line to safely bring them back to the United States out of an abundance of caution," Psaki said in the statement.
Where was all this caution when the worker who may have handled Duncan's specimens boarded the %$%#! cruise?
I grant you, he isn't symptomatic, and he's nearly at the end of the 21-day incubation period, and subjecting him to isolation is probably useless at this point, but shouldn't "self-monitoring" include a proviso to limit contact and avoid travel for at least 21 days after possible exposure?
It appears that is not the advice for category 2 exposure .
Point taken. Given the 'protocols' as apparently observed at the hospital where he works, though, I think we can safely assume he ran those tests bare-handed between sips of coffee while on break in the hospital cafeteria.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
While she had not yet progressed to the body-fluid-emitting stage, who knows how quickly any one patient might progress from mildly-elevated temperature to profuse sweating, vomiting, or diarrhea? I certainly don't know this, and likely the time lapse can vary considerably from one patient to the next. A 3-hour airline flight might be enough.
I see. Because your imagination can compress timeframes the way a movie does, decades of medical knowledge about how fevers actually work can go out the window.
[ 17. October 2014, 22:04: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
My mildly elevated temperature Wednesday at 11:30 pm had progressed to diarrhea by 2:30 a.m. Thursday.
[ 17. October 2014, 22:46: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Sorry, Ruth. Hope you feel better now.
But @ orfeo, with all sympathy for Ruth, that's only 3 hours. Though I doubt all fevers, ebola or otherwise, proceed in the same way or at the same rate of speed.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Fever is a response mechanism of the body to infection. Diarrhea it also commonly caused by infections. But one does not "progress" to the other.
Indeed, the reason that most symptoms of diseases are the same is that most of them are not directly caused by the infection.
[ 17. October 2014, 23:21: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
OK, whatever bug I have manifested itself first as a low-grade fever and three hours later as diarrhea.
The wording is more precise, but the point is the same.
[ 17. October 2014, 23:38: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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