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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 8th day: Those who have lost their faith?
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I was wondering whether there is a place to try out a board for those who have lost their faith, either in God or the church or both.
Topics for discussions could include Your story - Stories from churches or suchlike, intended as a cathartic release; Why? looking at theological reasons for leaving, what the real problems were; What do I do on Sundays?
I know this is a particular concern of mine, so there might not be enough for a whole board, but I think there are a range of topics, and a number of people on board who have this issue.
I think Faith no More would be the perfect name, but others might disagree.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I think this is a really good idea, it's definitely something I'd be keen to participate in.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Interesting idea... how about "O Come All Ye Faithless" for a name?
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It's certainly unrestful.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I like it. Support that concept and name need to include more than loss of faith as suggested.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
While initially supportive; just to play devil's advocate for a moment, would there be an expectation that people wouldn't go in for counterarguments? (How)Would that work?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
It is for more than just those who no longer call themselves Christian. It is those who have rejected formal religion (and could work as well for those who have rejected other religions too).
Some places I would think counter arguments would be reasonable, in the sense of discussions about the reasons someone has left church. It needs to start from a position of "Having left church is reasonable and acceptable", not from "If you don't go to church you have no right to call yourself a Christian".
I see it as offering support for people, partly by letting them argue their reasons and their choices. If it were to take off, and enough were to be interested, I might consider a private board with a similar remit, that could serve as a less argumentative arena.
However my experience is that most people who have left church know why they have done it, and are OK about arguing their view. Maybe another thread could be "reasons people have told me I should come back into the church".
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Would it be for people who have already left, or also for those who are on the edge? (Out of curiosity; I'm in neither category.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
It's an idea that could be included in a wider set of testimonies which also includes those who have gone in the other direction and those who have changed faiths or denominations.
I would suggest: "Lost and Found"
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Would it be for people who have already left, or also for those who are on the edge? (Out of curiosity; I'm in neither category.)
Either. I take the view that when you have considered the possibility of leaving, most of the decision has been made.
At the same time, it is not a place for persuading people either way - I don't think the format of an open forum is the right place for that.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I suspect that if you try to prevent that you will be trying to hold back the tide of human nature by hostly command.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I was wondering whether there is a place to try out a board for those who have lost their faith, either in God or the church or both.
[...]
I think Faith no More would be the perfect name, but others might disagree.
Losing faith and giving up on church are two different things, though. There are people who've lost faith who choose to attend church nevertheless, and rather more who see themselves as Christians without feeling any need to go to church. Implying that they have 'faith no more' might be taken as offensive.
It might be simpler just to focus either on ex-Christians or on people who don't go to church, rather than trying to do both.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Do you think there's an entire board's worth of stuff to be found, though? I like the idea and can see how there could be a handful of threads on this, a few more than normally crop up in All Saints and Purgatory, but I can't see that there would be enough distinct topics for discussion to get it flourishing and sustain that.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
How about a Board where people can share their experiences and personal stories and discuss them supportively but with a bit of challenge?
I've found that if I want to post something about a personal experience I've fought shy of Purgatory because I don't always want a general logical debate about things that matter personally but equally I might want a bit more intellectual input than the supportive words of All Saints.
When I wanted to talk about a family death I ended up in Ecclesiantics (via talking about the funeral) as a compromise.
A personal experiences board could cover loss of faith experiences but also go wider.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
It's an idea that could be included in a wider set of testimonies which also includes those who have gone in the other direction and those who have changed faiths or denominations.
I would suggest: "Lost and Found"
And perhaps those who have converted to Christianity from outside as well?
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I want to keep it wide including anyone who has lost their faith. I think this should include a deity - any deity, and irrespective of where people have ended up - as well as a religious institution.
Those who have left church, lost faith in church, should be included, because, for many, the church is a significant part of their faith.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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St. Stephen the Stoned
Shipmate
# 9841
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Posted
Count me in.
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Do you want to see Jesus or don't yer? Well shurrup then!
Posts: 518 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jul 2005
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
If we broaden the scope to folk who have damaged ( not necessarily lost) faith,as well as lost? That might get some interesting discussions going.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
My reservations are to do with how personal threads could be and I'm not sure this should be a public board for that reason. Maybe if there's enough interest it could be a private board?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I wrestle with this because... well, honestly, on the one hand, is this more of a thing for people who have lost their faith to post on for mutual discussion and support, like a non-faith-focused All Saints? Or more of a debate sort of place, in which some people (for example) might try to convince them to come back to Christianity again? Or would the latter be against the rules? I could see this escalating to Hell calls very quickly if someone feels pressured to "come (back) to Jesus," but if there were rules against that then it would be kind of an awkward board if people could not debate freely. Maybe the private board idea would be better in that case.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
There is a debate aspect - where those who want could explain why they have lost their faith, and others could argue back. There is no problem with that.
I think the only ideas that I would reject would be "you are not a Christian if you don't go to church" and "if you are not a Christian you are going to hell", at least as starting points. There would be a place to argue these two very issues, but they would not be starting points.
However, I am seeing very little real support for this - a few people, but if there are only half a dozen for whom it would work, it is not viable.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
For what it's worth, I'd be fully in support.
R.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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jacobsen
seeker
# 14998
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Posted
It seems to me that the board would essentially be about religion outside the box that people try to keep it in. It would be interesting.
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But God, holding a candle, looks for all who wander, all who search. - Shifra Alon
Beauty fades, dumb is forever-Judge Judy
The man who made time, made plenty.
Posts: 8040 | From: Æbleskiver country | Registered: Aug 2009
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
I would certainly dip my toe in.
But for me, it's not about 'losing' my faith - I made a deliberate decision to abandon it. 'Loss' implies some sort of criticism (from where I stand), too much like 'back-sliding' (to which I would respond 'No, a major leap forward').
Any suggestion of trying to persuade me back would get more than a deaf ear.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Mark - I get your point, but it is still a loss of faith, like a loss of childhood - not necessarily a bad thing, but an irrevocable change.
Would anyone else be interested in hosting it with me? Any of those who have expressed interest?
I think, if it does get set up, it will have to work out exactly what is acceptable, and I, for one, would be tolerant of what people were wanting to argue. It might be a place to see what would work and what wouldn't.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Do you think there's an entire board's worth of stuff to be found, though? I like the idea and can see how there could be a handful of threads on this, a few more than normally crop up in All Saints and Purgatory, but I can't see that there would be enough distinct topics for discussion to get it flourishing and sustain that.
For me, the handful might be something like this:
Why won’t Christian people engage with my rejection of their faith?
What are the reactions that you have experienced when Christian people learn of your rejection of their faith?
What can replace the ‘busyness’ of church?
How does your faith background influence what you feel now?
What’s it like for you as a non-theist with your Christian partner (and vice versa).
Do Christians pass by on the other side?
Is your life better or worse after your rejection of faith?
Nothing very challenging - but it's personal stuff that others might share.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
I like the idea of this discussion. It might need a good working definition (or two or three) of faith, and we might talk about dumping faith and keeping spirituality, for example.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
...and we might talk about dumping faith and keeping spirituality, for example.
This I like. I struggle with the difference. Easy to see that, for example, my daughter is a very spiritual person whilst having rejected GOD - but I still can't define what it is she has. Perhaps I don't have to define it.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
My reservations are to do with how personal threads could be and I'm not sure this should be a public board for that reason. Maybe if there's enough interest it could be a private board?
Maybe see how it flies as an experimental board first and, if there's enough interest, carry on as a private board?! Details of how to set one up, including
costs are here.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I did say, if it attracts enough interest, I will look at a private board, which has more scope.
However, if there is not enough interest - and I am still to be convinced - there is no point. If anyone is interested in this as a private board, please support this, and let me know.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I did say, if it attracts enough interest, I will look at a private board, which has more scope.
However, if there is not enough interest - and I am still to be convinced - there is no point. If anyone is interested in this as a private board, please support this, and let me know.
I'd actually be more interested in this as an eighth day experiment. I'm perfectly happy to be challenged about where I am at with faith - of lack of it. I'd even be happy to be pushed back towards it, if that were done with some reasonable degree of considerateness. I find it difficult to engage in purgatory at the moment on a lot of topics, since all my doubts about everything get in the way, and I worry about derailing the discussion. A place where being doubtful was normal starting point would be nice, but in that place I would not want to only engage with other doubters. I'd be pleased to be able to say "XXX is a massive problem for me about the whole christianity thing" and expect a range of response from "oh me too", to "you are completely wrong about that being a problem, because...". It's not that I couldn't have these discussions in purg, but I think this possible eighth day board could have a very different tone to purgatory, whilst still allowing serious debate.
Hmmmm... not sure I'm making sense here. I can't think of a set of board rules which would ensure the tone I am looking for. I still think it could be done though, creating a slightly safer space to explore the realities of where people are at on journeys that seem to be going away from faith, without them feeling they are painting bullseyes on their chests.
All that said, I'm busy and not posting much these days, so my opinion should carry little weight.
Best wishes,
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
The trouble with a private board is that it's essentially a closed set. People can't just wander past, think "That looks interesting" and join in; you have to apply to join before you can see any of the discussions.
I understand that some people might prefer the privacy to discuss topics that they felt were sensitive, but it might be better to start a public board and see how it went before deciding to start a private one.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Of the topics which have been suggested to date - Prayer, Food, Sex, Money and Doubt, if I remember correctly - Doubt seems to me as good a runner as any.
I'm of the opinion that all Experimental Boards will have their several difficulties. With Verseworks, I'd say it was the time and effort required continually and consistently to write to rules rather than just witter on spontaneously. I suspected this would be the case and have been agreeably surprised that we produced as much as we did. So I would not allow a particular aspect to sink the attempt.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Firenze: Of the topics which have been suggested to date - Prayer, Food, Sex, Money and Doubt, if I remember correctly
I think there was Music too. I guess you need to listen to something when you pray for more sex while doubting if you have enough money for food.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
If you only want people who have lost their faith to join in, it might be like a 'pat on the back-sharing' atheist's corner.
If it's to be aimed at people who are struggling with their faith, it may also attract both atheists and people of faith who want to try to coerce the struggling into their corner. ISTM that there is a danger of exploitation of vulnerability.
I would be interested if it were far wider, so that we would all be able to discuss the areas of faith/spirituality we find difficult whether we're atheists, struggling or strong in faith.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I would be interested if it were far wider, so that we would all be able to discuss the areas of faith/spirituality we find difficult whether we're atheists, struggling or strong in faith.
Would it not just then be turning into a Purg/All Saints hybrid?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
I would also be interested in this.
I'd like to go back to Mark Wuntoo's first post. I also don't use the term "loss of faith" for the same reasons. I can't think of any circumstances where the word "loss" isn't used to indicate something that is negative. Added to which loss is often seen as the result of accident, which is neutral, or neglect, which is worse.
Contrast that to how we talk about smoking. We never say that someone is losing their will to smoke. We say they have given up smoking, or simply stopped. There is a sense of volition there.
So I think it might be useful to explore how the language we use affects the way this shift is viewed. In particular how does it impact on the mental attitude and mental stresses of the people going through this process.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Maybe faith football: sometimes it's lost, sometimes it's punted.
Or intercepted.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
And those who miss out roll around on the floor pretending to be hurt?
Ah, OK.
Faithless as a name? Just a thought - no "loss", and reflects the study that first brought me to this topic (a Churchless faith).
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
'Faithfree'? ('Faithless' is a prejorative term in ordinary discourse).
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Faith Optional?
Some Dissembly Required?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Faith free from artificial everything.
I still have not had another volunteer to host with me, without which, it is dead in the water.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
I am not currently able to donate enough time to help host this... for now. That might change in a couple months.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Schroedinger's cat, I'd be willing to help host this. I think it's a marvelous idea.
[ 21. August 2014, 16:01: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Autenrieth Road - thank you. it is therefore a possibility.
When the time comes.
RooK - if you are available then, it would be appreciated.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
PM me when the time comes, to be sure I see it. I'm currently sometimes erratic on the Ship, but PMs will send me an email too, so I'll see it even if I haven't been on the Ship for a while.
[ 21. August 2014, 17:36: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
When the time comes.
That could be in a week, if you're able to put together a full proposal in that time.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
I'd like to register an interest in joining debate on this sort of board. I'm not entirely sure I can be more coherent than that about it at the moment. Thanks for the idea!
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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