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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The emotional toll
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I am so angry. (And no, this doesn't belong in Hell, at least I hope not.)
And I've been crying.
Why am I so angry and upset? Because I just spent a long weekend in Sydney and I had a really great time.
Bizarre? Maybe.
But it's because I should have been having that really great time something like 15 years ago, in my early 20s. Maybe even as a teenager.
I should have been experiencing those kinds of things at the same age as any heterosexual would hope to. Going out on a Friday or Saturday night with friends. Hoping to catch the eye of that person across the room. Or kissing on a park bench. And giggling.
All of that was denied me. And now that it's no longer denied, I'm finding out how good it is. And finding out what I was missing out on is making me furious.
This is what being in the closet did to me. This was what all the advice to suppress my desires and fight against them led to. It pushed back my entire relational development so that I've been trying to find out about boys in my mid-30s.
I keep having this feeling that I'm running out of time or racing against the clock. It's not entirely rational, I know. But it's based on the notion that by this age I should have been in a position to find a man and settle down, maybe even had my heart broken the first time around before finding the person I want to spend the rest of my life with. If I was single and trying to get into the dating scene at this age, it should be that I was trying to get BACK into it, not a beginner.
I feel like I've lost an entire part of what should have been my life and I can't ever retrieve it.
*deep breath*
I think what I'm trying to raise as a point of discussion is that those who ask gays not to act on their feelings (especially when it's acknowledged that being gay is unchangeable) don't comprehend the damage that's inflicted. It's not a case of the feelings and desires being replaced with something else good. It's an empty space. A nothingness.
A loss of part of life that most heterosexuals take for granted. Even if it doesn't work out, heterosexuals get to take the ride, the adventure of trying to find someone.
And they took it away from me. For years, it just wasn't something I could have. It felt bad enough then, but now that I understand more of what I missed out on in the past... somehow it feels even worse.
It's the emotional equivalent of pins and needles. And it hurts like crazy.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Amen. To infinity and beyond.
I waited til 32; that was an isolated outbreak and the opportunity has not recurred. Now, at the age of 38, I'm really panicking about the feeling that time has run out for me.
Sublimation is very largely a myth made up by bigots for their own comfort. The reality is almost entirely repression, which is entirely destructive in nature and consequence.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
I find it particularly galling when married heterosexual men stand up in meetings extolling the joy that is the gift of celibacy and that teh gayz should be greatful to serve God in that way. They can [insert word of choice here] right off, smug [insert other choice word here].
These are the same folk who would counsel young heterosexual couples that it is better to marry than burn.
Teh gayz just have to burn, it would seem.
The church, for the most part, is not a healthy place for LGBTQ people... life in all its fullness is apparently only available to heterosexuals.
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
Understood. It was 47 for me. Absolutely sucks to go through deferred adolescence at that age.
But go through it we do and capture what joy we can in the process.
And it is never too late to meet someone who you figure out you want to spend the rest of your (speedily decreasing quantity of) mortal years with.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger. Or older. Many, probably most, don't. And a large minority of men (and a smaller one of women) effectively have no sexual contact with anyone at all during their lives. Its just you see the ones who are doing alright. The other man's grass is always greener.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
Orfeo did say 'would hope to'...
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
As the relative of someone who took a lo-o-ong, lonely, agonizing time discovering who she was and what that meant, let me just say: ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for all who get forced through this mincer by:
parents & other family who never stop to ask themselves if their assumptions about a kid's heterosexuality might possibly Not Apply;
teachers and school systems likewise;
anyone who uses the word "gay" as a pejorative;
and the incredible crushing demands of a society which idolizes conformity.
And for those feeling "passed by:" please know that a friend of mine has just celebrated, with all joy and appropriate hooplah, the first anniversary of his marriage to his One True Love last week at the age of 57. They met at a gay rights event three years ago.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger. Or older. Many, probably most, don't. And a large minority of men (and a smaller one of women) effectively have no sexual contact with anyone at all during their lives. Its just you see the ones who are doing alright. The other man's grass is always greener.
I find it more than a bit galling that the point of such an eloquent post as Orfeo's can be so comprehensively lost on some. I suppose the fact that I identify with it so strongly colours my reaction, but for me, the central point Orfeo is making is about the sense of lost time, coupled with huge frustration at the sheer number of hurdles he/we had overcome to reach what for most seems to be the starting line. The fact that there are a fair few others that don't make it over the starting line is not the point. You stand a significantly better chance of making it beyond that point if you don't have to waste a huge amount of time and energy to get to it in the first place.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger.
Way to miss the point, ken. Straight people as a group don't face what gay people do. Not even close.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
(Orfeo, please post a picture, preferably in a Speedo, and the Ship's unbiased panel of homosexual experts will rate you on the International Hottie Scale so you'll know what to expect during your sunset years.)
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
I am however, reminded of someone I once heard say "I've given up all hope of ever having a better past." - It is what it is. At least you're getting kissed on the dance floor now. And as someone who came out in his early 20s, youth is indeed wasted on the young. Although coming out in the French Quarter in New Orleans in the 1970s did have a up side, I admit.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
orfeo, I'm not certain the reflections of an older gay man on another continent are going to be any comfort--the experiences can be so different depending on context, and there was a big difference between my coming out in the early 1980s and the experience of those coming out just five years before.
But..I found my partner when I was 43, and we are coming up on ten years together. For whatever reason, that seemed to be a fairly typical age for men of my generation to find life partners.
It's a good life. I would like to think we would have been equally happy had we met in our 20s, but I suspect we wouldn't have made it--we needed to be the people we were when we met in our 40s.
I know nothing about where you live, but I will just add--if you aren't living in a city, you need to move. The problem with the small town where I lived before I moved to Atlanta was that I literally knew every gay man in the village--and those very few who were available were not good matches for me. I wouldn't expect that to be something you could do overnight, but if you make it a priority it can happen.
We both know how much free advice is worth even from one's best friends. Free advice on the internet surely has even less value--so I'm not going to be offended if you tell me to buzz off. The things you describe ARE as annoying as hell, but things really can get better (and that's about as saccharine as I ever care to get on the Ship).
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{{{{{Orfeo and all with similar situations}}}}}
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger. Or older. Many, probably most, don't. And a large minority of men (and a smaller one of women) effectively have no sexual contact with anyone at all during their lives. Its just you see the ones who are doing alright. The other man's grass is always greener.
Ken, as noted, I did say 'would hope to'.
I'm under no illusion about the fact that 'the dating game' can be pretty damn cruel, regardless of the gender you're attempting to date. But difficult, cruel and challenging is still not the same as impossible and forbidden.
You have no chance of winning the lottery if you're banned from buying a ticket.
Also, just how much 'fun' are 'most' heterosexuals not getting? Are you really trying to tell me that most heterosexuals don't ever get the fun of having someone to make eyes at?
Frankly, I think you read about my 'fun' and your mind immediately travelled to sex. You headed straight for the endgame.
I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about public displays of affection. If you want the grisly details, sex isn't new to me. Also, it's quite feasible to have sex while in the closet (although I didn't).
I'm talking about the ability to play handsies with a guy in a bar, and kiss him, and not care who's watching. Or even to hope someone is watching. Or in a park, to care as much as a straight couple who have a little bit of decorum might. That is, to stop when someone's coming close by - without being terrified about whether they caught a glimpse before you stopped.
Anway, given the number of heterosexual couples I see around, and how many people are paired up to the point of marriage (THERE'S a public display of affection for you), and also given the sheer size of the planet's population (ie, you lot keep breeding), I simply don't believe your counter-offer is accurate.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger. Or older. Many, probably most, don't. And a large minority of men (and a smaller one of women) effectively have no sexual contact with anyone at all during their lives. Its just you see the ones who are doing alright. The other man's grass is always greener.
That's what I was thinking. Sounds like orfeo's experience in his 20's was similar to that of an ugly heterosexual. Heck, he at least gets to experience it now. Ugly straight man? Not so much...
Apparently, we've missed the point. Oh well...
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I find it a bit galling that the OP assumes heterosexuals get the fun they want when they are younger. Or older. Many, probably most, don't. And a large minority of men (and a smaller one of women) effectively have no sexual contact with anyone at all during their lives. Its just you see the ones who are doing alright. The other man's grass is always greener.
That's what I was thinking. Sounds like orfeo's experience in his 20's was similar to that of an ugly heterosexual. Heck, he at least gets to experience it now. Ugly straight man? Not so much...
Apparently, we've missed the point. Oh well...
This patronising crap is getting very close to the divide between DH and hell.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Another late bloomer here.
Do I feel regret over my having to remain in the closet so long? Sure. Last weekend I was at my old university for a conference, and as I was showing DP around my old haunts I couldn't help but think, "What a difference it would have made if I'd have been able to come out in my 20's."
But I don't regret ending up where I am now. Too much "couldawouldashoulda" can be counterproductive.
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sounds like orfeo's experience in his 20's was similar to that of an ugly heterosexual. Heck, he at least gets to experience it now. Ugly straight man? Not so much...
I've experienced the 'joys' of unreturned feelings as a gay man too, thanks for asking.
And yes it hurts. But it doesn't leave me the same sense of feeling like someone owes me an apology.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Sounds like orfeo's experience in his 20's was similar to that of an ugly heterosexual.
Ugly heterosexuals could get beat up if they held hands with a girl in the park? Had to be afraid for their safety and possibly their very lives if they were caught kissing a girl in public?
I'm not sure you really thought that over before you hit "Add reply."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Depends on where he was and how much that has changed now. Sine came out in the 70's. My understanding wasn't that he stayed in the closet out fear but because he was told to supress his feelings and attractions. Sounded like a religious issue.
Ugly heterosexual kids get beat up as well and they don't kiss the girl on a park bench. Jerks and bullies invent reasons to be jerks and bullies. Granted, for various reasons, gay people and those suspected of being gay have it particularly hard.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Granted, for various reasons, gay people and those suspected of being gay have it particularly hard.
Which pretty much obviates everything else you've said.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
I was an early bloomer and got rocks, bottles, and fists thrown my way for my refusal to "tone down" my appearance and my attitude. I always have had too big a mouth to stay in the closet. I still didn't sow many wild oats, however. I have always been too nerdy or too silly or too something-or-other to attract any women... except the maniacs. I dated far too many maniacs, unfortunately. Low self image and a Catholic upbringing contributed to that.
Then, in my late thirties, I met the love of my life and we've been out and proud and in a great relationship for five years now. But I can certainly sympathize with those who are late bloomers.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
BA--
People get horribly bullied for all sorts of reasons. I was, and not due to sexual orientation.
That doesn't mean LGBT folks have it easy.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
preferably in a Speedo
(I draw the line at Speedos. At least until I do some more work on my abs. I can maybe do you a tight shirt or a sleeveless top. I'm pretty happy with my arms. Do you like arms?)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Granted, for various reasons, gay people and those suspected of being gay have it particularly hard.
Which pretty much obviates everything else you've said.
Not really. There are many heterosexuals who are for whatever reason - looks, disability, low intelligence, etc. - social outcasts and who are never even considered as mate material and suffer tremendously because of it. The difference for many is they can't one day choose to come out with a chance at happiness. There is undeserved suffering in many corners. It's just sad that each group can't identify with the other and empathize and support each other.
Orfeo, it's never too late to find love. I've got friends, both hetero and homosexual who have found love late in life. Don't let the anger at the past spoil the enjoyment of the present.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Beeswax Altar and ken, the kids I know and have dealt with, these are youngsters in their teens and early 20s - they cannot come out in this area as teenagers. The suspicion of being gay, as in they are not dating heterosexually from 14 or 15 attracts bullying, the homophobia is such. I am not in a city, but in a market town and I'm thinking of here and a neighbouring new town.
In the world of school that means not being allowed to change in the school changing rooms because none of the other teenagers will go in the same room as them and change. I know finding all your kit in the latrines is a usual form of bullying for anyone, but it's normal for those suspected as being gay, every time they dare to go near the changing rooms. It means never being able to say who you'd like to date, or hold hands with anyone under the desk, or be seen dressed up going for a date, or joining in the chat about what you've done or where you've been at the weekend. You can't touch anyone of the same sex of you without having a rough time.
The best advice we could give these kids was to keep a low profile - ie stay in the closet - for their own safety. And that was those of us who were gay-friendly, not those who still had section 28 dinning in their ears. One kid I know who was having such a rough time at their school aged 14 seriously investigated setting up a LGBT group. It wasn't allowed in school. The situation was so bad, they read the Human Rights Act and went back into school to challenge school policy on contravention of human rights - and didn't get anywhere.
The kids who had it slightly better had gay PE teachers. Watching one such informing homophobic bullies that in their class the law of averages meant at least one person in the class was gay, if not several, and, that the student in front of them might just be one ... was joyous. But thinking of one lad I watched fall apart aged 16 who is now 22 or 23, it didn't stop them being in (self-)denial about their own sexuality because the prevailing culture is such that being gay is unacceptable.
You can both lech at whoever you want - people will just roll their eyes. It's acceptable for you to be attracted to unattainable women and try to chat up anyone you fancy - the fact you might not get anywhere is true for anyone, but it's acceptable - and if you don't go too far with the wrong person's partner, you're not at risk of being taken outside and being beaten up. That's not the case for gays even thinking about chatting up someone in a bar.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
Reading CK's excellent account, a natural response may well be "yes fine, that's what it's like for kids in school; these guys are in their mid to late 30s - they need to get a grip now". The problem with this analysis is that what we are facing is the consequence of the persistence of that essentially adolescent state 20 years beyond its sell-by date, which is corrosive in the extreme, and what I certainly am saying is that it is in large part cultural conditions, especially as I have internalised them, which have left me in this position (at this point, I don't want to speak for anyone other than myself). Three years' counselling has done something to allow me to reduce the internal psychical pressure to a survivable level; I am only just beginning to be able to make fundamental changes which are visible to the outside world in the way in which I actually live.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
You can both lech at whoever you want - people will just roll their eyes. It's acceptable for you to be attracted to unattainable women and try to chat up anyone you fancy - the fact you might not get anywhere is true for anyone, but it's acceptable - and if you don't go too far with the wrong person's partner, you're not at risk of being taken outside and being beaten up. That's not the case for gays even thinking about chatting up someone in a bar.
Thank you! That's exactly it. It's not about whether you're getting somewhere (or getting some ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ), it's about whether you're even allowed to dream of getting somewhere.
I think I've mentioned before how, as a Christian, I'd bought into the whole notion of finding the love of my life and marrying them LONG before I realised I was gay. But then the whole notion became impossible. I wasn't even able to dream about it.
Losing the ability to dream about it made me pretty well suicidal on the day that 2 of my heterosexual friends got married. It wasn't because I was thinking 'I don't have that', it was because I was thinking 'I can NEVER have that. Ever.'
I'm overjoyed that the dream is back. But I'm also angry that it was ever taken away from me.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
There were also the straight kids who others were sure were gay and suffered bullying and other trauma, including getting beat up. There was one gay guy and one straight girl who committed suicide rather publicly when I was in high school. There were also straight kids for whom gym class and dressing rooms were trauma filled events. I was friends with a wide spectrum of kids in school and as a young adult, both straight and gay, popular and outcast, bullied and looked up to. With respect to religion, as a paraplegic, I can't tell you how many times I've been told there is sin in my life or even that I'm possessed because of my disability. It seems there's always someone to consider less than you or not who needs to be kept out of society. And we never seem to learn.
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
... Also, it's quite feasible to have sex while in the closet ..
Depends how stable and well built the closet in question is ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) . Some collapse, I find.
But seriously, orfeo ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) re the long term effects of repression on many people. Thank you.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Granted, for various reasons, gay people and those suspected of being gay have it particularly hard.
Which pretty much obviates everything else you've said.
Not really. There are many heterosexuals who are for whatever reason - looks, disability, low intelligence, etc. - social outcasts and who are never even considered as mate material and suffer tremendously because of it.
True but that wasn't the point of the postings; the point of the postings was, "Other people, straight people, also have problems so shut up." Which suddenly was abandoned; hence what I said.
quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
There were also the straight kids who others were sure were gay and suffered bullying and other trauma, including getting beat up.
<raises hand>
[ 16. March 2011, 13:17: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I think it should be understood that the process of "coming out" involves a somewhat complex interplay of external social environment and individual personality traits. My partner and I were effectively out in Texas in 1974 at the ages of barely 20 and barely 19, respectively, by which time we were living together in a relationship that has now endured more than 36 years (and really he had been out pretty much through his adolescence in Venezuela before coming to the States at the age of 18). Yet, before going away to university I had only known one or two gay people out in the quite conservative city of Lubbock, Texas where I finished high school, neither of whom I found particularly attractive role models. The ambient culture was certainly disapproving and repressive. Yet this didn't succeed in causing me to deny my essential sexuality, though I did struggle with it during adolescence. I'm sure there must have been plenty of my peers with homoerotic proclivities, but the question arises as to why I was able to come out relatively easily for the time and place, whilst others were not. Certainly finding a partner whom I deeply loved and of whom I was fiercely proud made a big difference. Yet being able to readily get into such a relationship was again a function of personality. I've always had what is commonly called a rebellious streak and have never been anything other than a very partial social conformist. It might be easy to misrepresent this as existential courage, but that would be claiming virtue where the reality has in truth been more one of psychological imperatives. To be in a relationship does make it a lot easier to be out, because the observable relationship - two persons of the same gender living together - tends to make things fairly obvious to many or most persons, especially as one gets past one's mid-twenties. Social evolution over the past 36 years has made it easier to be more frankly out, again very much in the context of our being a married/partnered same-sex couple. I've increasingly thought it important to be out, because if we all came out it is, I think, pretty well assured that social oppression would cease entirely. But only an examination of the unique psychological and social factors in the case of the individual person can reveal why one person came out early and another waited until middle age (or in other cases never came out at all). A strong need for self-assertion, in combination with some source of social support, would seem to be important factors in prompting one to come out,however. Still, I suspect that the former is more crucial than the latter.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
I quickly picked up on the fact that nice older gentlemen (in their 30s) would take one out to dinner and buy one drinks. This was such an improvement over my having to pay for some girl's dinner that coming out was made much easier.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
HA! These days, if the second drink isn't on you, there's likely to be a problem!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
It's okay, I'm financially better off than many of my dates...
...maybe I should have been aiming to become a sugar daddy all this time and didn't realise it! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I don't actually track DH too often, and I am ignorant as per personal experience, but highly supportive as per social experience.
Just a few points:
My children when in highschool an university were part the "Gay-Straight Alliance" which has slightly different labels but means the same things. It is about living live with integrity. And that should be important to everyone.
Gay people do get married in Canada, and we are close friends with 2 couples. I see again the issues of acceptance and integrity.
Love is. Please go after it where you find it. Period. Make no excuses. Be happy.
The Anglican Church movement is called Integrity and I think it is fitting. Even if the church really does a bad job lots of the time.
At any rate, kind thoughts, prayers and actions from an ignorant but supportive friend.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Gay people do get married in Canada, and we are close friends with 2 couples. I see again the issues of acceptance and integrity.
Yup. Every time I hear someone argue against gay marriage and how it's going to destroy society, change too many things etc etc, I have the urge to just shout 'CANADA!'
Integrity. How letting people live with integrity could be a bad thing, I've no idea.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by no_prophet:
Gay people do get married in Canada, and we are close friends with 2 couples. I see again the issues of acceptance and integrity.
Yup. Every time I hear someone argue against gay marriage and how it's going to destroy society, change too many things etc etc, I have the urge to just shout 'CANADA!'
Integrity. How letting people live with integrity could be a bad thing, I've no idea.
Gay people are just evil and wrong, so can't possibly be interested in things like integrity. Teh gayz just want to have sex with everything over and over again.
Geddit?
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Have sex with everything?
Not members of the opposite sex obviously.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Have sex with everything?
Not members of the opposite sex obviously.
I'm willing to bet that the people FooloftheShip is mocking lump all GBLT into "teh gayz" and so this is possibly not accurate.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Orfeo,
If you are interested in becoming a sugar daddy, I need someone to pay for my seminary education ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm 27 and never had a serious relationship before. Yeah, there are times when I long for a companion, but even though it might sound cheesy to say, I easily miss the blessings that I do have. I have good friends who care for me and live in a beautiful city.
I didn't come out until I was 19, and only really came out to everyone last year (the family was the last group of people I was out to). So in some ways I consider myself still a "young-in." Do I think that I would be in a relationship if I came out earlier? Perhaps, but I'm the first person to admit that I wasn't mature back then (There are days when I think that I'm not mature now.) But at least now, I feel secure in myself that I won't jump into a relationship simply for the point of being in a relationship.
A lot of my single straight female friends feel similarly. They say that as a result of becoming older, they tend to be more discerning in what exactly they are looking for in a partner. Instead of a pretty face, they are looking for people who are compassionate, gentle, and loving. And same with me, though admittedly being physically attractive doesn't hurt.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Call me.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Have sex with everything?
Not members of the opposite sex obviously.
But of course.
Any old port in a storm, as they say...
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
I was 23 when I came out, but didn't date much until I was in my 30's. Never had much luck with relationships until about 8 years ago when a sweet 21 yo guy decided I was the man for him. It took me a while to get used to the idea, but now I'd be lost without him. We keep hoping that one day we can be legally married.
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My cooking blog: http://inthekitchenwithdon.blogspot.com/
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Niteowl
Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Have sex with everything?
Not members of the opposite sex obviously.
I'm willing to bet that the people FooloftheShip is mocking lump all GBLT into "teh gayz" and so this is possibly not accurate.
Indeed. I have heard some rather astounding numbers of one evening sexual encounters mentioned by those who lump them all together. If they couldn't leave their prejudices, one would have thought the math alone would have convinced them it wasn't true. ETA: When reminded of the simple mathematical impossibility, the numbers get reduced, but are still ludicrous. And of course, they know it's true. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
[ 17. March 2011, 07:13: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]
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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare
Posts: 2437 | From: U.S. | Registered: Aug 2010
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
This is a very moving thread to read, and I am grateful to orfeo for starting it. I know of gay men in their 50s who have never been out on a date. Who have never had a kiss or a cuddle. Who may have had sex, but have never had a relationship. And who can't risk going to gay bars, or the equivalent, because any small move towards coming out could cost themtheir job.
Now there is a lot more to life than relationships and job security. But there is an awful lot of stuff that an awful lot of people take for granted which such gay people have not known, and may never know.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Orfeo, that OP was magnificent.
My own dynamics are rather different. As a terrified teenager I was so far in the closet the only person I could reasonably expect to date was Mr Tumnus. Then in my mid-twenties I came out, with the help of a handful of wonderful friends - one especially, to whom I owe everything I might reasonably call my life. Idiot that I was, I then put myself up for ordination, believing the CofE to be a rather more liberal place than it turned out to be. In practical terms it meant a partial return to the closet - you hear of "out" or even partnered vicars, but a change of bishop from liberal to conservative, and you can lose your livelihood and your home if he takes a dislike to you.
Now in my late 40s, I think I've found a place of peace. Most days. And most days I can be happy for, rather than resent, the men I see walking hand in hand through the few areas of the city where it's comparatively safe for them to do so. It's an aspect of life that's happened to other people, not to me, and I'm glad for them. But still, on rare, terrible nights, my house and my bed feel so empty, it scares me.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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