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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Anti-Gay Foster Parents Court Case
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
[QB]You're missing the point. If I believe God tells me to do something, then by definition I believe that thing is right.
A reply to this probably deserves its own thread. Because there is a whole truckload of moral abdication there. And moral abdication that even now comes with lethal consequences.
I don't even come close to being the wordsmith Mark Twain was. So I'll let him present the opposing case from Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.
quote:
So I was full of trouble, full as I could be; and didn't know what to do. At last I had an idea; and I says, I'll go and write the letter - and then see if I can pray. Why, it was astonishing, the way I felt as light as a feather right straight off, and my troubles all gone. So I got a piece of paper and a pencil, all glad and excited, and set down and wrote:
Miss Watson, your runaway nigger Jim is down here two mile below Pikesville, and Mr. Phelps has got him and he will give him up for the reward if you send. Huck Finn.
I felt good and all washed clean of sin for the first time I had ever felt so in my life, and I knowed I could pray now. But I didn't do it straight off, but laid the paper down and set there thinking - thinking how good it was all this happened so, and how near I come to being lost and going to hell. And went on thinking. And got to thinking over our trip down the river; and I see Jim before me all the time: in the day and in the night-time, sometimes moonlight, sometimes storms, and we a-floating along, talking and singing and laughing. But somehow I couldn't seem to strike no places to harden me against him, but only the other kind. I'd see him standing my watch on top of his'n, 'stead of calling me, so I could go on sleeping; and see him how glad he was when I come back out of the fog; and when I come to him again in the swamp, up there where the feud was; and suchlike times; and would always call me honey, and pet me, and do everything he could think of for me, and how good he always was; and at last I struck the time I saved him by telling the men we had smallpox aboard, and he was so grateful, and said I was the best friend old Jim ever had in the world, and the only one he's got now; and then I happened to look around and see that paper.
It was a close place. I took it up, and held it in my hand. I was a-trembling, because I'd got to decide, forever, betwixt two things, and I knowed it. I studied a minute, sort of holding my breath, and then says to myself:
"All right, then, I'll go to hell" - and tore it up.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
Now obviously other people will often use religion to justify things I oppose, and in such cases I obviously think they are deluded in fancying God supports them. But I can't fault them as far as being logically consistent goes.
So if the rules for fostering are X and they feel God is telling them to do not-X, why the hell would they sign up at all?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
I've just watched this couple interviewed on the 'One Show'. Mrs Johns stated explicitly, in answer to a direct question, that their religious beliefs would come before the needs of any child that they fostered. She added that their religious beliefs in fact came before their own children.
Whatever your views of their steadfast adherence to their faith, it is difficult to see how any fostering authority could ignore that kind of statement.
anne
What I find peculiar is the apparent distinction between their children and their religious beliefs, as if they are completely separate entities.
What gospel are they reading if they think that church attendance takes precedence over the needs of children they are responsible for?
IMHO, it is this rather than their views on homosexuality that raises questions about their suitability for providing foster care.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
So if the rules for fostering are X and they feel God is telling them to do not-X, why the hell would they sign up at all?
They shouldn't sign up, then. Of course.
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
You're missing the point. If I believe God tells me to do something, then by definition I believe that thing is right.
That rather depends on what you think God is like.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Bran Stark
Shipmate
# 15252
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
You're missing the point. If I believe God tells me to do something, then by definition I believe that thing is right.
That rather depends on what you think God is like.
Haha well I guess you could believe in a God who tells His people to do evil... but that one would be hardly worthy of worship.
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IN SOVIET ЯUSSIA, SIGNATUЯE ЯEAD YOU!
Posts: 304 | Registered: Oct 2009
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
You're missing the point. If I believe God tells me to do something, then by definition I believe that thing is right.
That rather depends on what you think God is like.
Haha well I guess you could believe in a God who tells His people to do evil... but that one would be hardly worthy of worship.
I'm sure that God doesn't get things wrong, but I'm not sure that I believe in people who don't get things wrong.
It is possible to do something wrong because 'God is telling me to do it' - not because God told me to do a wrong thing, but because my understanding of what he was saying - or whether he was speaking at all - was wrong. It's a discernment thing, and listening to other people can be an important part of that discernment.
anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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chukovsky
Ship's toddler
# 116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Bran Stark:
Now obviously other people will often use religion to justify things I oppose, and in such cases I obviously think they are deluded in fancying God supports them. But I can't fault them as far as being logically consistent goes.
So if the rules for fostering are X and they feel God is telling them to do not-X, why the hell would they sign up at all?
I think because those used not to be the rules - and they originally fostered (but had a break) before the rules were changed, so felt they were still likely to be good foster carers.
Others in this position (completely new carers) may sign up now feeling that their views are right and the best ones to promote to children, though - so it could partly be that - they think the rules are an ass.
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This space left intentionally blank. Do not write on both sides of the paper at once.
Posts: 6842 | From: somewhere else | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
they think the rules are an ass.
Tough.
Rule of law does not mean 'I'll follow the rules that I personally think are good ones, and I get to ignore the others'.
What it means is there are avenues for advocating change of the rules you don't like.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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shipscat
Apprentice
# 5219
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Posted
I have two small shreds of personal experience that seem relevant to this issue to tentatively share with the Ship...
Firstly, as a foster carer, I was asked at the beginning of just one placement, where the children's mother had stated that she was Catholic and preferred her children to attend Catholic Mass on Sundays, if I was willing to take the children to Catholic Mass. This question was presented as a deal breaker. I said we went to a different kind of church but were perfectly happy for the social workers to take the children to their preferred church while we went to ours. We heard no more dissent or concern on this issue. (Sometimes avoidance of the words 'yes' or 'no' can work wonders for forward momentum.)
Secondly, as a teacher, I learned long ago to preface any mention of religious doctrine in class with 'some people believe ... and other people don't'. I thus manage to convey principles of various religions' doctrines without the preaching and persuading the powers that be are afraid of.
I take my cue on this tricky issue from Jesus, who appears to have had a knack for guessing the sub-text of the questions he was asked by the authorities of his day and was a master at evading entrapment. If we were all as good at listening with our hearts and asking pertinent questions of our potential accusers, in return for their impertinent questions, instead of instantly assuming a stalwart, all guns blazing verbal defense of our morals, lifestyle or principles, we might possibly avoid the angry, adversarial confrontation that so often has the unfortunate outcome of marring the reputation of Christians active in caring for the community.
The most sensible young people I've met have been those who've been able to talk openly and without censure on any topic they've come across in their junior travels with at least one caring, faithful, listening parent figure, whose quiet and consistent influence sets a shining example of how to behave in a world awash with bewildering options. (Actions, to youthful, inquiring minds, speak far louder than words.)
Posts: 14 | From: uk | Registered: Nov 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
they think the rules are an ass.
Tough.
Rule of law does not mean 'I'll follow the rules that I personally think are good ones, and I get to ignore the others'.
What it means is there are avenues for advocating change of the rules you don't like.
This warrants saying again. Don't like the rules? Tough. Work to change them. Meanwhile they're the rules. It has to go pretty far, I think, to get into the "I can't follow these rules" exceptions. This wasn't My Lai or anything close.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shipscat:
Firstly, as a foster carer, I was asked at the beginning of just one placement, where the children's mother had stated that she was Catholic and preferred her children to attend Catholic Mass on Sundays, if I was willing to take the children to Catholic Mass. This question was presented as a deal breaker.
Surely the social workers were simply doing the right thing in trying to see that the mother's wishes on church attendance were fulfilled. That you talk in such accusing terms as "deal breaker", "entrapment", "potential accusers", and "impertinent questions" I find rather worrying, but perhaps you didn't mean it in that way.
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Ship's Cat--
Hypothetical question: if you had kids, and you died, and there were no relatives to take care of them, and the kids wound up in foster care...
Would you want the foster parents to take the kids to your kind of church? Or their own? What if the foster parents were of another faith altogether? Or atheists?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Interesting.
Eunice Jones tells a lie - completely contradicts what is already on record - she denies all stuff about 'trying to turn' a child (husband's words) or about teaching right from wrong. She simply says she cannot go along with homosexuality, or words to that extent.
Nazir Ali continues his persecution complex. The more I hear of him, the more I wish he would do what he promised to do upon retirement, that is to support Christians facing persecution. I could give him a list of countries to which he could go and leave us alone.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Nazir Ali continues his persecution complex. The more I hear of him, the more I wish he would do what he promised to do upon retirement, that is to support Christians facing persecution. I could give him a list of countries to which he could go and leave us alone.
I'm not a fan of his theology by any means, but he is not long back from a trip to churches in Iraq which makes him braver than me - it's not on my holiday destination list, so I think slagging him off in those terms is in poor taste.
L.
[ 08. April 2011, 20:41: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
He slags plenty of other people off.
Let him speak for himself....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LhmUKFLt64
S t A
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
He thinks multiculturalism is a 'mish-mash' - which, being interpreted, means he wants Christianity to continue to rule the roost.
According to Peter Tatchel, "He has repeatedly spoken and voted against gay human rights in the House of Lords, defending homophobic laws like the unequal age of consent, criticising civil partnership legislation and opposing IVF fertility treatment for lesbian couples."
He supported the war against Iraq.
He told the Sunday Telegraph that legislation should be introduced giving some officials the power to remove the veil worn by Muslim women.
In 2000, he said married couples had a duty to have children, and those who remained childless were "self-indulgent".
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
He thinks multiculturalism is a 'mish-mash' - which, being interpreted, means he wants Christianity to continue to rule the roost.
According to Peter Tatchel, "He has repeatedly spoken and voted against gay human rights in the House of Lords, defending homophobic laws like the unequal age of consent, criticising civil partnership legislation and opposing IVF fertility treatment for lesbian couples."
He supported the war against Iraq.
He told the Sunday Telegraph that legislation should be introduced giving some officials the power to remove the veil worn by Muslim women.
In 2000, he said married couples had a duty to have children, and those who remained childless were "self-indulgent".
Leo,
I can't confirm or deny what you've posted as I'm not a Nazir Ali 'follower' as such. Coming, as I do, from the evangelical wing of the Church I confess we've tended to shoot first and take no prisoners in terms of the general gay debate. Although i am quite clear on what Scripture says about the issue as well as the Church fathers over two millennia.
Back to the OP, once again I have no personal knowledge of the Johns as people and perhaps with hindsight it wasn't worth taking Derby Council to law on this matter.
I do maintain the closing of Catholic foster agencies was an utter tragedy though.
Saul the Apostle
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Although i am quite clear on what Scripture says about the issue as well as the Church fathers over two millennia.
So said many in 1860 about slavery.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I do maintain the closing of Catholic foster agencies was an utter tragedy though.
Not familiar with the UK version of this, but if it's anything like what happened in certain U.S. juridictions with same-sex marriage/civil partnership laws, the end result is foster kids having their cases handled by other organizations that won't filter out otherwise acceptable fosterers on purely theological (and largely hypocritical) grounds. I don't see a situation where more foster kids are placed with loving homes as "an utter tragedy", but YMMV.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Here's a short thread from about a year ago dealing with the Catholic Church's position on charitable operations or employee benefit packages that might benefit someone homosexual. (Short version: they're opposed!)
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Although i am quite clear on what Scripture says about the issue as well as the Church fathers over two millennia.
So said many in 1860 about slavery.
I'm not in agreement with that point of view. But I guess you'd know that anyway.
St Paul makes it very clear in the early part of Romans how men and women choose certain paths to go down which are not right. Fortunately there is grace and mercy for us all - me included.
S.
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Although i am quite clear on what Scripture says about the issue as well as the Church fathers over two millennia.
So said many in 1860 about slavery.
I'm not in agreement with that point of view. But I guess you'd know that anyway.
Claiming that Christian slaveholders of the mid-nineteenth century didn't claim a divine stamp of approval on the institution is historical revisionism of the worst sort. Do I need to provide citations?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I do maintain the closing of Catholic foster agencies was an utter tragedy though.
For whom? Certainly not a tragedy for any kids who might need gay foster parents because their straight parents have disowned them.
Or for foster kids in general who just need foster parents, gay or straight. Artificially shrinking the pool of potential fosterers implies an overabundance of foster parents relative to foster kids and we know that is actually the reverse of the situation in most jurisdictions.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Eunice Jons appeared on Channel 4's 4ThoughtTV last week in a series about the royal wedding.
Holding a Bible, with her husband sitting mute in the background, she said that two men lieing together is an abomination and that church weddings should only be for (heterosexual) Christians.
She repeatedly mispronounced the word 'homosexual' and said, in a grudging sort of way, that we have to love everyone but that she hates 'the act'. 'If you believe the bible, it is very clear.....in Genesis 2 she was called woman because she was taken out of man' 'This country has gone from Christianity. It gets us down...devalued...eroded.'
I don't think any child should be fostered by such a bigot.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
Just curious, HOW can you mispronounce 'homosexual'? There are two pronunciations that I thought were equally valid, with the first syllable either rhyming with 'home' or with 'Tom'.
[ 08. May 2011, 08:47: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
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Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I knew someone who used to say "hermasexual".
Posts: 3690 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Just curious, HOW can you mispronounce 'homosexual'? There are two pronunciations that I thought were equally valid, with the first syllable either rhyming with 'home' or with 'Tom'.
She said 'omo...' - rhyming with 'home'
I am trying very hard not to sound racist - her accent is Afro-Caribbean. However, it should rhyme with 'Tom' since it comes from a Greek, not a Latin root.
I do not expect everyone to understand etymology but she must surely have been involved in discussions where the correct terms were used. If not, then I don't think she has much right to an opinion.
[ 08. May 2011, 15:15: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Just curious, HOW can you mispronounce 'homosexual'? There are two pronunciations that I thought were equally valid, with the first syllable either rhyming with 'home' or with 'Tom'.
She said 'omo...' - rhyming with 'home'
That's how it's said by everybody I've ever heard say it, including lots of people who are. You do know that pronunciation is a matter of usage, not etymology, right? Click on the little speaker
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
Leo,
It's impossible for her to have said that. She can't have. Your misspelling of the word "lying" makes it obvious that you're an uneducated bigot who don't know what you're talking about. I don't mean to be racist or anything, but I do think it's fairly clear that you people from England should just stop doing English, since you can't seem to get it right. Leave it to us foreigners.
How about you take up Danish instead?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
On the topic:
"It's not bigotry to think yourself right, but to be unable to understand how you could possibly be wrong."
- G.K. Chesterton
And no children should be subjected to such bigotry. It's inhuman and crude. The problem is just that there are so few people I would trust with children...
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JFH:
Leo,
It's impossible for her to have said that. She can't have. Your misspelling of the word "lying" makes it obvious that you're an uneducated bigot who don't know what you're talking about. I don't mean to be racist or anything, but I do think it's fairly clear that you people from England should just stop doing English, since you can't seem to get it right. Leave it to us foreigners.
How about you take up Danish instead?
On the topic:
"It's not bigotry to think yourself right, but to be unable to understand how you could possibly be wrong."
- G.K. Chesterton
And no children should be subjected to such bigotry. It's inhuman and crude. The problem is just that there are so few people I would trust with children...
Hosting
JFH,
By calling Leo an 'uneducated bigot' your post breaches Commandment 3
quote:
3. Attack the issue, not the person
Name-calling and personal insults are only allowed in Hell. Attacks outside of Hell are grounds for suspension or banning.
If you want to make posts like this you need to start a thread on it on the Hell board, notify Leo and then post there. Personal attacks are not allowed on any other board.
Thanks,
Louise
Dead Horses Host
Hosting off
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Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
Leo (and Louise),
I'm sorry. Got a bit overexcited by Hosts' & Admins' Day and carried it way too far. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Mea culpa. Sorry.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
Ah I wondered if you were confused! It's the same rules unless a host has posted somewhere to say they've been changed for the duration
cheers,
L.
DH Host
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
In **** just for you, I'm going to send the thread somewhere suitable.
cheers,
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
leo: quote:
However, it should rhyme with 'Tom' since it comes from a Greek, not a Latin root.
I do not expect everyone to understand etymology
I don't expect everyone to understand phonological change either, but honestly...
I am what the Census Office would categorise as White British, but I would normally also pronounce the vowel in the first syllable of 'homosexual' to rhyme with 'home'. Etymology aside, that is how most people I know would pronounce it, except where 'homosexual' is being pronounced in an unstressed position in very rapid speech. Dropping the 'h' at the beginning is common in many dialects of English and is not worthy of remark.
When a word is adopted into a language, sooner or later the pronunciation will be assimilated. The pronunciation it ends up with may bear no relation to the one it had in the original language and protests from more highly educated speakers who are aware of the word's origin will have little or no effect, although socially acceptable pronunciations may vary between different dialects of English. If you don't believe me, try using the British pronunciation of 'junta' in front of an American from the Southwest or ask a working-class speaker of Estuary English to pronounce 'voile'.
There are many reasons to attack this woman, but her pronunciation of the H-word is not one of them.
Jane R
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re "junta":
Actually, most Americans would pronounce it differently from the British, even if they know nothing about Spanish, because that's simply the way it's said here. (For those who don't know, the Spanish "J" is normally pronounced like an English "H", so "hoontah".)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
<tangent> Golden Key: quote:
Re "junta":
Actually, most Americans would pronounce it differently from the British, even if they know nothing about Spanish, because that's simply the way it's said here.
Yes: I specified an American from the South-West because I suspect (judging by the reaction I got) that using the British pronunciation carries racist connotations for them that simply don't exist here. In a similar vein, I am quite happy to use the British pronunciation of 'junta' (unless code-switching between Spanish and English, as opposed to using a Spanish loanword in ordinary English speech) but would normally pronounce 'voile' as 'vwal' (the original French pronunciation) instead of 'voyl' because the assimilated pronunciation is only acceptable in lower-status British dialects (we're fighting a thousand years of social conditioning here). 'Mispronouncing' loanwords from Spanish does not carry the same social stigma in the UK. <\tangent>
Moving back to the original topic, these people would be right at the bottom of my list of acceptable foster parents (slightly below the neighbour's cat). Not simply because they are virulently anti-gay (although that is an important consideration), but because they are clearly unwilling to put the child's needs before their own where there is a conflict (as in the exchange about church attendance).
Jane R
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
tut tut
Children these days don't know their place...
Posts: 433 | Registered: Apr 2009
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Leo--
Except that's one of the problems with a "revealed" religion or belief system. You're stuck with the revelation. You might take it all literally, or view some of it as pious stories, or think the whole thing's a fake, or be somewhere in the middle. But you've got to relate to it somehow, or walk away.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Jane R: quote:
I am what the Census Office would categorise as White British, but I would normally also pronounce the vowel in the first syllable of 'homosexual' to rhyme with 'home'. Etymology aside, that is how most people I know would pronounce it, except where 'homosexual' is being pronounced in an unstressed position in very rapid speech. Dropping the 'h' at the beginning is common in many dialects of English and is not worthy of remark.
"omo-sexual"? Someone who wants sex with washing powder?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I honestly don't give a flying arse how people pronounce the word "homosexual". Though I think "hom" to rhyme with "tom" sounds very old-fashioned and I don't know anyone who would pronounce it that way. I care about attitudes and civil rights, and people not getting beaten up.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
her accent is Afro-Caribbean.
Yes, we can't let Afro-Caribbean people enter the debate - they might mispronounce the words.
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
her accent is Afro-Caribbean.
Yes, we can't let Afro-Caribbean people enter the debate - they might mispronounce the words.
Yes, it's all about the accent. Just the accent.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
"omo-sexual"? Someone who wants sex with washing powder?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Well, I'd pronounce it with the H but lots of people wouldn't.
<tangent to the tangent> I didn't know Omo washing powder was still available. Besides, nowadays everyone uses washing liquid. Washing powder is sooo last century...<\tangent to the tangent>
And what Liopleurodon said.
Jane R
[ 10. May 2011, 15:54: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Leo--
Except that's one of the problems with a "revealed" religion or belief system. You're stuck with the revelation. You might take it all literally, or view some of it as pious stories, or think the whole thing's a fake, or be somewhere in the middle. But you've got to relate to it somehow, or walk away.
No - sensible Christianity is not merely a 'revealed' religion. Tradition, reason and experience are alongside scripture.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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