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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Inclusive language hymns
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Neither clergy nor musicians should be allowed unfettered access to the liturgy, in my opinion.
There are some clergy (but, again IMO, very few) who have the slightest clue about music.
And a good many (but by no means a majority) of "trained church musicians" who have a clue about the liturgy, at least the Anglican liturgy and what goes along with it, like the church year.
It's relatively easy for clergy to put their foot down, if they want to and if -- and many don't -- they realize there's a problem with the musician. It's almost impossible for the knowledgeable musician to deal with an ignorant priest, of whom there are a very large number indeed.
John
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by leo quote:
Better to have the organist involved in whatever committee chooses the hymns.
Ours is - we meet every 3 months - music director, vicar, a churchwarden and me.
And you've had what training in liturgical music? And presumably the churchwarden was also sent on a suitable course? And the Vicar is musical, keeps up-to-date with music practice and developments in contemporary music?
No, calling this sort of nonsense a 'ministry team' does not make it better.
So presumably all organists have theological training then?
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
It is very rarely that I find myself disagreeing with l'organist and agreeing with Exclamation Mark, but on this occasion I do.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
The obvious approach here is to have dialogue: people with theological expertise, people with liturgical expertise, people with musical expertise. In a very few cases, this may be found all in one person. I know two or three such people! But in most contexts you're going to need a conversation.
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Stejjie
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# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
The obvious approach here is to have dialogue: people with theological expertise, people with liturgical expertise, people with musical expertise. In a very few cases, this may be found all in one person. I know two or three such people! But in most contexts you're going to need a conversation.
That was my thought too, which is making me wonder what the problem is with leo's arrangement?
I've been on both sides of this debate; as a musician who had to put up with some... eccentric song-choosing practices (eg the minister who used to pick songs nobody knew just because he liked the look of the words, or the preacher who when leading the service announced all the songs, just not necessarily in the right order); and now, as one who chooses hymns and songs for our service (though I suspect this might be a different process in my tradition than it is in, say, an Anglican church). I've made some real clunkers of song choices in my time as a minister, but these (I hope!) have got less as I've spent time in this church and got to know the congregation, what works and what doesn't. There's little substitute for experience of a congregation in this. And help from the musicians, which I'm always grateful for.
So if the priest is in the habit of making bad choices for hymns, then surely helping him/her is better than just marginalizing them? A group like leo's would surely be an asset, as it would give the priest some guidance and help them to make better choices - and also help the musician(s) to understand where the priest is coming from, why s/he's making those particular choices and then enable them to be guided in better ways of reflecting those concerns?
If the priest outright refuses, then fair enough - it's dust-shaking-off time. But I'd have thought everyone's a winner with something like this?
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Sorry Angloid, but IME it is the musicians who worry about fitting hymns or songs to readings or worship themes.
Again, IME the most jarring choices of music have all been made by clergy.
I still shudder at the use of The Servant Song no fewer than 5 times in the same church between Passion Sunday and Good Friday. The same cleric also couldn't see anything wrong with the choice of Majesty and To God be the glory during the distribution of communion on Maundy Thursday.
To describe this particular cleric as a liturgist would be like describing a gerbil as a zoologist.
That is indeed a nightmare situation, L'organist, and I sympathise. I agree that there are many (and probably an increasing number of) clergy who are liturgically clueless. Likewise many organists (such as yourself) who are just the opposite. Having a sensitive appreciation of the power of liturgy should be a sine qua non for people in both roles.
However, whereas inept clergy have no excuse apart from their own ineptness, many parishes have to rely on musicians (who might be skilled musically) with little experience of or understanding of Christian worship. They are the sort of people I had in mind.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
EE: you ask what, if any, theological training I've had? Well, does growing up in a house with a CR trained priest, with a member of the Community living next door, and being taught the organ by someone who thought that organist training must include liturgical training count? And then going on to do courses in theology post graduation, not to mention a certain conservatoire's Church Music Studies Course.
By way of contrast, my current PinC had precisely one day per term of a 2 year course 'dedicated' to music in the liturgy - so 6 whole days. And before going forward to ordination training he was an '8 o'clocker' so had little experience of sung liturgy.
As for Gee D's point about whether or not hymns are singable by the congregation, I'd point to the nonsense of setting a hymn to the Londonderry Air which has a range well beyond the compass of most people, including a fair number in choirs - if you don't believe me you can find it in most hymnals. It is recommended that hymns for congregational singing go no lower than Middle C and no higher than an E +1 (that is a range of 1 tenth) and many congregations struggle with that: Londonderry has a range well beyond that, yet is regularly chosen by clergy "because people know it / love it".
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by L'Organist:
quote:
As for Gee D's point about whether or not hymns are singable by the congregation, I'd point to the nonsense of setting a hymn to the Londonderry Air which has a range well beyond the compass of most people, including a fair number in choirs - if you don't believe me you can find it in most hymnals. It is recommended that hymns for congregational singing go no lower than Middle C and no higher than an E +1 (that is a range of 1 tenth) and many congregations struggle with that: Londonderry has a range well beyond that, yet is regularly chosen by clergy "because people know it / love it".
We sang that at my wedding! I choose that one from time to time in the spirit of the gentleman who was asked if he believed in infant baptism. "Believe in it? Heck, I've seen it done!"
Originally posted by Stejjie:
quote:
So if the priest is in the habit of making bad choices for hymns, then surely helping him/her is better than just marginalizing them? A group like leo's would surely be an asset, as it would give the priest some guidance and help them to make better choices - and also help the musician(s) to understand where the priest is coming from, why s/he's making those particular choices and then enable them to be guided in better ways of reflecting those concerns?
This is wise. Very few decisions are poorer through being adequately discussed by interested parties.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
EE: you ask what, if any, theological training I've had? Well, does growing up in a house with a CR trained priest, with a member of the Community living next door, and being taught the organ by someone who thought that organist training must include liturgical training count? And then going on to do courses in theology post graduation, not to mention a certain conservatoire's Church Music Studies Course.
By way of contrast, my current PinC had precisely one day per term of a 2 year course 'dedicated' to music in the liturgy - so 6 whole days. And before going forward to ordination training he was an '8 o'clocker' so had little experience of sung liturgy.
As for Gee D's point about whether or not hymns are singable by the congregation, I'd point to the nonsense of setting a hymn to the Londonderry Air which has a range well beyond the compass of most people, including a fair number in choirs - if you don't believe me you can find it in most hymnals. It is recommended that hymns for congregational singing go no lower than Middle C and no higher than an E +1 (that is a range of 1 tenth) and many congregations struggle with that: Londonderry has a range well beyond that, yet is regularly chosen by clergy "because people know it / love it".
It's usually pitched to use a low A rather than go high. We Plough the Fields also uses a low A or Ab depending on book. I'm a high tenor but I don't know anyone who can't get down there when needed; far easier than expecting Altos/Basses, or indeed the average untrained voice, to negotiate an F, or even an E to be honest.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by leo quote:
Better to have the organist involved in whatever committee chooses the hymns.
Ours is - we meet every 3 months - music director, vicar, a churchwarden and me.
And you've had what training in liturgical music? And presumably the churchwarden was also sent on a suitable course? And the Vicar is musical, keeps up-to-date with music practice and developments in contemporary music?
The vicar's first degree is in music.
The director of music is obviously a musician.
The committee also comprises a retired professor of music and a secretary in the music dept. of the uni.
The churchwarden is a scientist but he is the person to whom most people moan if they don't like the hymns.
I am the only non-musician but I am the only theologian on the team and my contribution is specifically concerning the lectionary.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I'm guessing you're in a university town/city, Leo.
At our shack the PinC's degree is in natural sciences and he freely admits that most music 'passes him by'.
The Churchwardens are a retired mathematics specialist who is tone-deaf and a retired banker who isn't into music.
As for the place where the vicar chose the Servant Song repeatedly: they admit to a fondness for Duran-Duran. Since arriving in the parish they've managed to get rid of an in-post organist and 2 deputies. The robed choir has gone, the music group is reduced to a single violinist, the former head of the music group got so fed up he's now heading up the music at the local Baptist Church, which he goes to after making his communion at 8 o'clock at another church.
The wardens in that parish were both supportive and appreciative of good music - of all kinds; both have resigned with one only going to the said service, the other has moved to more congenial pastures.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
We drop an octave as necessary. The choir is good and does not need to. Difficulty in singing by a congregation does not just mean high notes. Breathing, ornamentation and a whole lot more come into it.
You have not dealt with my point, which was that the music is a part of the liturgy and liturgy is the province of the Rector, not the organist or choir director. (And the Rector does discuss; it's just that at the end the decision is his - and should be.)
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Gee D
I discuss music with PinC, and he does his best to appear interested. But he said to me soon after arriving he's a firm believer in the old saying I]Why keep a dog and yet bark yourself?[/I].
We have regular meetings and discuss which feasts will be marked, plus any of the numerous 'special' sundays. Then I choose the music because that is what I'm employed to do.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Gee D
I discuss music with PinC, and he does his best to appear interested. But he said to me soon after arriving he's a firm believer in the old saying I]Why keep a dog and yet bark yourself?[/I].
We have regular meetings and discuss which feasts will be marked, plus any of the numerous 'special' sundays. Then I choose the music because that is what I'm employed to do.
It's a good thing this works for you. It sounds like it does.
But in many situations it does not.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I discuss music with PinC, and he does his best to appear interested. But he said to me soon after arriving he's a firm believer in the old saying I]Why keep a dog and yet bark yourself?[/I].
I've been thinking about this.
The priest is the 'custodian of the liturgy' so s/he should have some input into choosing hymns - to fit with sermons.
S/he should also avoid heretical hymns - like Townend's idea of the wrath of God was satisfied - and the organist should avoid bad tunes - for which reasons our church is a Kendrick-free-zone.
Incidentally, on congregations having a narrow repertoire of known hymns - because we have so many students, there is almost a one-third congregation turnover every year with new people coming from all over the country plus a few from abroad.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I discuss music with PinC, and he does his best to appear interested. But he said to me soon after arriving he's a firm believer in the old saying I]Why keep a dog and yet bark yourself?[/I].
I've been thinking about this.
The priest is the 'custodian of the liturgy' so s/he should have some input into choosing hymns - to fit with sermons.
S/he should also avoid heretical hymns - like Townend's idea of the wrath of God was satisfied - and the organist should avoid bad tunes - for which reasons our church is a Kendrick-free-zone.
Incidentally, on congregations having a narrow repertoire of known hymns - because we have so many students, there is almost a one-third congregation turnover every year with new people coming from all over the country plus a few from abroad.
PSA is not heresy - the objection should be to it being presented as the only valid atonement theory. PSA is perfectly orthodox, certainly for Anglicans.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by leo quote:
... our church is a Kendrick-free-zone.
So is ours - only exceptions the occasional wedding where they've used the web (especially the CofE website) and found something by Ke****ck.
We have a pretty broad repertoire of hymns - but then I try not to repeat (other than carols) during the year, although that was easier with the old EH than with the NEH. On the rare occasions when repetition is unavoidable I try to make it to a different tune.
There are regular open sessions for learning 'new' hymn tunes or if a new setting is being introduced. We even sing the Wayne Marshall tune Marlborough Gate for Beyond all mortal praise - NEH 340.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I discuss music with PinC, and he does his best to appear interested. But he said to me soon after arriving he's a firm believer in the old saying I]Why keep a dog and yet bark yourself?[/I].
I've been thinking about this.
The priest is the 'custodian of the liturgy' so s/he should have some input into choosing hymns - to fit with sermons.
S/he should also avoid heretical hymns - like Townend's idea of the wrath of God was satisfied - and the organist should avoid bad tunes - for which reasons our church is a Kendrick-free-zone.
Incidentally, on congregations having a narrow repertoire of known hymns - because we have so many students, there is almost a one-third congregation turnover every year with new people coming from all over the country plus a few from abroad.
Canon B20 - the minister is to pay 'due heed' to the musician's advice, but the final responsibility is the minister's
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I don't have the time to check if there be an equivalent to that C of E Canon, but could not agree more - it is the responsibility of the Rector to choose the hymns, settings and so forth. One who does not is shirking responsibility.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
<snip>S/he should also avoid heretical hymns - like Townend's idea of the wrath of God was satisfied <snip>
While there certainly are understandings both of the wrath of God, and of satisfaction which tend to the heretical, Townend's hymn doesn't on the face of it deserve that stricture. The Doctrine Commission's 1938 report which you have already referred to offers the theological framework within which this language is rightly used and understood. The understanding of the wrath of God against sin is specifically addressed in a section with that title, and it is with that understanding that the report goes on to use the idea of the Cross as a satisfaction for sin in its consideration of the Atonement.
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Roselyn:
Plural pronouns are grammatically correct in many situations. eg "Who would true valour see, let them come hither" is not incorrect grammatically.
True. But they can make life incredibly confusing. Take, for example, "To be a pilgrim". But not the original version, but the version that most people will be familiar with:
quote:
He who would valiant be ’gainst all disaster,
Let him in constancy follow the Master.
There’s no discouragement shall make him once relent
His first avowed intent to be a pilgrim.
Who so beset him round with dismal stories
Do but themselves confound—his strength the more is.
No foes shall stay his might; though he with giants fight,
He will make good his right to be a pilgrim.
Since, Lord, Thou dost defend us with Thy Spirit,
We know we at the end, shall life inherit.
Then fancies flee away! I’ll fear not what men say,
I’ll labor night and day to be a pilgrim.
Now let's try and inclusivise it:
quote:
All who would valiant be ’gainst all disaster,
Let them in constancy follow the Master.
There’s no discouragement shall make them once relent
Their first avowed intent to be a pilgrim.
Who so beset them round with dismal stories
Do but themselves confound — their strength the more is.
No foes shall stay their might; though they with giants fight,
They will make good their right to be a pilgrim.
Since, Lord, Thou dost defend us with Thy Spirit,
We know we at the end, shall life inherit.
Then fancies flee away! I’ll fear not what men say,
I’ll labor night and day to be a pilgrim.
As you can see, verse two becomes a shambles, as we have two lots of "them". Any suggestions?
Bumping this back up, as I had a "Eureka" moment yesterday. As the last verse of this hymn shifts from third person singular to first person plural, I thought "why not make the WHOLE hymn first person plural?"
So what do people think of this:
quote:
We who would valiant be
’gainst all disaster,
let us in constancy
follow the Master.
There’s no discouragement
shall make us once relent
our first avowed intent
to be a pilgrim.
Who so beset us round
with dismal stories,
do but themselves confound -
our strength the more is.
No foes shall stay our might,
though we with giants fight:
we will make good our right
to be a pilgrim.
Since, Lord, you will defend
us with your Spirit,
we know we at the end
shall life inherit.
Then fancies flee away!
We’ll fear not what they say,
we’ll labour night and day
to be a pilgrim.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I find grammatical errors in this version of the great hymn. You can't talk about we and our while still using a pilgrim when the plural is pilgrims
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I find grammatical errors in this version of the great hymn. You can't talk about we and our while still using a pilgrim when the plural is pilgrims
I know. I was wondering who would spot that first. But I think it is still possible (just) to get away with it.
(Man! How desperate does that sound?)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I find grammatical errors in this version of the great hymn. You can't talk about we and our while still using a pilgrim when the plural is pilgrims
I know. I was wondering who would spot that first. But I think it is still possible (just) to get away with it.
(Man! How desperate does that sound?)
I think it's possible to get away with it. I remember being told that it's acceptable to talk about "their heart" or "our life" because each person has only one heart and one life, so presumably in the case each of us can only be one pilgrim.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
It doesn't seem odd to me at all to say "we each have an intent to be a pilgrim," even if we understand us to be pilgrims severally and not just jointly. I don't see why dropping the "each" makes it wrong. Also, the church qua church is a pilgrim people, at least in Catholic ecclesiology. So, we are jointly a pilgrim, as well as severally each a pilgrim.
As for singular 'life,' the new translation of the Roman Missal (not that that's a paragon of English usage) uses that in my favorite dismissal option: "Go in peace, glorifying the Lord with your life."
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
could I suggest that the last line of each verse would be more politically correct as 'to all be pilgrims'
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
I always sing it with feminine pronouns.
Brings tears to my eyes.
In childhood my brother and I would sing it to our mother who - in the manner of those days had changed her name on marrying... because our family-name rhymed with "pilgrim"!
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There was a Stepney Episcopal Area course for Adults called Step by Step, and I remember singing "One more step along the world I go" at the memorial service for Beatrice Shearer who was mainly responsible for getting the course going.
I haven't got the text in front of me and I can't remember it being particularly Christian, but it certainly isn't inconsistent as an expression of faith and hope and it was highly appropriate on that occasion.
I like this one. It appears in the Methodist book Hymns and Psalms. (I don't know if it's in the new Methodist hymnbook.)
Although God isn't mentioned by name it's assumed that the hymn is addressed to him. Moreoever, the hymn's reference to travelling seems to match the common Christian understanding of faith being a journey. I don't know whether the hymn's general sentiments in general would be reflected in the worship of any other religion, but it does seem to be a highly inclusive hymn.
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Magersfontein Lugg
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# 18240
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Posted
In the UK which modern in print hymnbook is the best for inclusive / expansive language do you think?
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I know some people will hate me saying this...
In my experience, Kevin Mayhew hymn books are most inclusive. Check out the various(!) versions of Anglican Hymns Old and New. Some rewritten hymns are awful, but often there has been a relatively restrained approach to inclusivisation.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
Thank you, Oscar. I heard also the Church of Scotland hymn book had done well with expansive and inclusive hymns.
Also a friend mentioned an older hymn book - Hymns For Today's Church.
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
The only people that the Kevin Mayhew books exclude are those who care about the literary quality of the words that they are singing.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Magersfontein Lugg
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# 18240
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Posted
Oh dear! I know my request for advice could be a hot potato, but it is genuine. We'd like an inclusive / expansive language book to supplement.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
ML
Why does it have to be inclusive language? Unless your church has had a sudden lottery win (or similar) are you so flush with cash that this is a must have?
And is your church so well maintained that this is the only thing left for you to spend your money on?
If the answer to either of those two is NO, then you shouldn't be wasting time, effort and money worrying about 'inclusivity'.
IME the alteration of many older hymns by the PC brigade has ruined some of the finest religious poetry in regular use in the UK - but you are entitled to your view and, if your church really wants an 'inclusive' book then go for it.
BTW, is the inclusion to be concerning gender alone, or are all references that might offend the differently abled going to be removed too?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Also a friend mentioned an older hymn book - Hymns For Today's Church.
Noooooooooooo!
It's clunky and horrible and..... and....
Before I was ordained, I was in a church that had HFTC. So many perfectly good hymns ruined for so little purpose. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
L'organist I take it your comments are actually ones opposed to inclusive language and using richer and more expansive language about God.
I fully expect people here to push that line, as I know others will hold different views.
However, my request was a simple one, not a polemic one. We are not getting a new hymn book for our church, we just like to have a variety of resources and so have one or two full music copies of other hymn books, hence the request. But why, I ask myself, should I have to explain!
So to repeat my simple question.
Which modern hymn book available in the UK is a good one for inclusive language and expansive language?
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
My last place had the dark red version of Hymns Old and New. I'm not sure I'd recommend it as the hymn book to end all hymn books but if you want it to give you another string to your bow, it's pretty good. The Methodist hymnal, 'Singing the Faith' would be my suggestion. Currently, I tend to resort to the latter in circumstances when five hymns from the NEH won't cut the mustard.
As things stand, we use the NEH and have some elderly copies of Mission Praise, which appear to date from some period between the settling of the Ark on Mount Ararat and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah which are, frankly, worse than useless. I can only assume they were purchased by one of my predecessors in a peculiar attempt at reverse psychology. In the event of a dodgy Russian oligarch moving into the parish and offering me unlimited access to his ill-gotten lucre I would probably invest in a suitable number of copies of Singing The Faith and produce more service booklets with the words of all the hymns. Until that happy event, I persevere. But if you are looking for a few copies to give you a wider repertoire and some more inclusive language, you could do worse.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
Thanks Callan for a kind and helpful response.Thats the sort of situation we face. We will not be replacing our traditional hymn book but we do want to supplement it with inclusive language and expansive language hymns, and I should have said, we'd like more hymns from differing nations.
I'll look out the hymn book you suggest. It seems from what I have heard the C of E hymn books are more conservative than some of the Free Church ones.
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
To be more helpful:
We use the New English Hymnal.
We supplement with English Praise - which is the supplement to the NEH.
For some things we still use the original English Hymnal.
But there are some hymns we get from a wide variety of other books, including: Ancient & Modern New Standard, Mission Praise, Hymns Old & New, The Catholic Hymn Book (1998 edition), the English Gradual, plus Hymnau yr Eglyws for a couple of tunes, the Hymnary of the US Department of Defense, Songs of Praise, etc.
IME there is no single book that covers all the bases; you just choose the one that suits most of your needs and deal with the rest on a case-by-case basis. Not perfect, I know, but the best that can be done if you want to have a broad range of liturgical music.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
Another one you might want to look at, especially in terms being a supplement to your existing hymn book, is Sing Praise from the publishers of Hymns Ancient and Modern.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
We used to use 'New Hymns and Worship Songs' in addition to the NEH. It won't suit everybody because it's published by Kevin Mayhew, but it is specifically designed as a supplement in that it doesn't generally include the well-known hymns already in most established collections.
The practical problem, if you hand out hymn-books to congregation members rather than print the texts in a bulletin, is having to juggle with a library. Either you restrict yourselves to singing all the hymns in a particular service from one or other of the books (especially problematic with the newer book); or you compromise by handing out only the one with most of the hymns and printing out the rest; or you permanently keep books in the pews; or you put off strangers for life by confusing them with two or three books and a couple of leaflets and then either destroy the flow of the liturgy with distracting announcements or leave people floundering.
If you don't use a screen, simple outline orders of service are the way to go.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I tend to agree with L'Organist and Albertus. So far, I've not come across a recent hymn book that's remotely up to the job. I'd love to hear of one. Most of them have all (rather than only some) of the following failings:-
- they omit too many of the classics that should be in every hymn book - though it varies which ones they omit.
- in their determination to modernise uninclusive language, old forms of second person singular etc, they butcher what hymn writers originally wrote and reveal themselves to be cloth-eared.
- one suspects that too often this is so as to claim a sort of false copyright in the works of writers and composers better than they, and then try to claim fees on them.
- their selections of modern material are invariably weirdly idiosyncratic. Whatever the list, it will have little bearing on what you want to sing. Modern favourites won't be there, but the pages will be cluttered up with choruses that were written by friends of the editor, but which nobody else has ever sung. (Actually, if you replace 'choruses' by 'hymns' that last bit applies to most old hymn books as well. It certainly applies to all the editions of A&M and EH).
Some Shipmates will scream but these are all good arguments for having a projector and screen.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Angloid quote:
The practical problem, if you hand out hymn-books to congregation members rather than print the texts in a bulletin, is having to juggle with a library.
May I enquire how many hymns you have in a service?
In a standard parish communion, for example, you can really only fit 5: an Introit (some people call this the gatheringhymn; a Gradual before the Gospel if you don't have a Psalm; at the Offertory; at Communion; and a final Post Communion hymn.
It should not be beyond the wit of someone with a modicum of gumption to ensure that all of those for one service come from the same book; there may be occasions when you want to stray into a second book but beyond that? I really couldn't see the necessity. Of course, you may have a preference for choosing more widely but thats a different thing altogether.
[ 12. December 2014, 15:57: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Not any longer having responsibility for a congregation, that is a hypothetical question. If I had my way we'd have no more than two hymns at a eucharist.
But yes, it is usually possible to find four or five relevant and singable hymns from the standard hymnbooks. It's only when you want to incorporate a newer one (or two) from the alternative book: certainly with the one that I mentioned you would be struggling to find all four (or five) in that book. So people either have to juggle with two books or with a book and a piece of paper. That's why an printed service leaflet is a good idea especially if it can obviate this need.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Not any longer having responsibility for a congregation, that is a hypothetical question. If I had my way we'd have no more than two hymns at a eucharist.
Wonderful. After all the rest of the service, bar the sermon, is chanted normally, isn't it?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Two seems a bit meagre - how about 3? Introit, Offertory, and one just after Communion whilst the washing-up is done....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Not any longer having responsibility for a congregation, that is a hypothetical question. If I had my way we'd have no more than two hymns at a eucharist.
Wonderful. After all the rest of the service, bar the sermon, is chanted normally, isn't it?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I'm with the late +Mervyn Southwark, who in reply to a question about his churchmanship is alleged to have said, 'I'm neither high church nor low church, but short church.'
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