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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW 2723: St Magnus the Martyr, London
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
I went up to see the poppies at the Tower of London first thing this morning, and afterwards attended the remembrance day eucharist at St Magnus Martyr, choosing it because it is close by and a lot of the city churches don't have a regular Sunday service.
There were several things I did not understand about what went on, as I am not very familiar with this style of service.
Father Philip Warner and two other priests entered wearing black hats. These were taken off and put back on a few times during proceedings, but I could not determine the principle on which it was determined which parts they should be worn for.
The first two scripture reading were delivered facing the congregation, but the gospel was read facing sideways, to the north, which I have not seen done before. What might be the reason for that ?
While Father Philip was shaking some incense to the altar, the other two priests were on either side of him, and lightly held his sleeve by the elbow, rather as one might guide someone who was unsteady on their feet.
He and the other priests were wearing black chasubles, but immediately after distributing the eucharist to us all, he put on a black cope. I have seen one worn to process in from outside at the start, and then taken off, but never one put on close to the end.
The service ended not with a blessing or dismissal, but with the collect for Lady Day. I was unclear whether that was because it remembrance day or whether they do that every week.
I know there are people here who know this churchmanship well, and am hoping you can enlighten me.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
The black hats were no doubt birettas, which are a form of clerical headwear that one still finds in use amongst many advanced Anglo-Catholics. Roman Catholic clergy have largely abandoned them, and Anglican clergy who are not self-identified Anglo-Catholics have rarely worn them. The biretta is not worn at the altar itself, but is worn in procession, coming and going, and at the sedilla (seats for the clergy in the sanctuary), but is always doffed at the Holy Name of Jesus.
During censing of the altar and the oblations (the latter at the offertory), the deacon and subdeacon hold the back of the celebrant's chasuble, raising it a little off his shoulders, which is meant to make it easier for the celebrant to do the censing. In point of fact, it's usually just traditional these days, but once upon a time chasubles could be very heavy, so holding it off the shoulders was a practical assistance.
In the old Roman rite, the gospel at a high mass was sung to the liturgical north, because the heathen lived in northern Europe and still needed converting -- symbolic evangelism. At a sung or low mass, the gospel is read or intoned on the "gospel side" of the altar, which is again at the liturgical north end. Very few Anglo-Catholics still sing the gospel toward liturgical north at high mass, instead having a gospel procession into the nave, which has become pretty universal Anglican and Lutheran style (but not RC, where everything is to be read/sung and preached at the same ambo).
Did the celebrant put on the cope in order to do the absolution of the dead at the catafalque, or some other liturgical action? I can't cast light on this without knowing more about what the clergy were doing when they left the altar at the end.
The collect for Lady Day, I would think, was the concluding collect of the Angelus, with it's refrains and three Hail Marys.
[ 09. November 2014, 19:22: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Did the celebrant put on the cope in order to do the absolution of the dead at the catafalque, or some other liturgical action? I can't cast light on this without knowing more about what the clergy were doing when they left the altar at the end.
I initially misread this bit as "immediately before distributing Communion" and couldn't make head or tail of it. Re-reading it, I am sure, given it's St Magnus, that it must have been the "Absolution" of the Dead as LSvK suggests.
[ 10. November 2014, 02:43: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
... the gospel was read facing sideways, to the north, which I have not seen done before. What might be the reason for that?
I would suppose that the practice comes from the Sarum Missal - 'and let the Gospel be always read turning to the north' - by way of Percy Dearmer's The Parson's Handbook.
I last saw the Gospel read that way at the high altar in our place in the 1950s: we have long since had a Gospel procession into the nave.
I was told at the time - I do not vouch for the accuracy of the information - that the Gospel was thus read to enlighten the dark north, which works well in the northern hemisphere, but not so well here.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
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Planeta Plicata
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# 17543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
In the old Roman rite, the gospel at a high mass was sung to the liturgical north, because the heathen lived in northern Europe and still needed converting -- symbolic evangelism. At a sung or low mass, the gospel is read or intoned on the "gospel side" of the altar, which is again at the liturgical north end.
This is the most common explanation for the practice (and appears to date, as an explanation, to at least the tenth century), but it's not the only one. Fortescue attributes it to the influence of the low mass on the high mass; Jungmann acknowledges that explanation, but thinks it more likely that it had to do with the changing orientations of churches (from having the apse to the west to having it to the east). The relevant explanations are helpfully excerpted here.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
If they were being really old-fashioned, they'd have changed out of black into purple vestments for the distribution.
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Magic Wand
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# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If they were being really old-fashioned, they'd have changed out of black into purple vestments for the distribution.
Would they have? In what rite or use is that ordered?
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If they were being really old-fashioned, they'd have changed out of black into purple vestments for the distribution.
Would they have? In what rite or use is that ordered?
both Fortescue and Ritual Notes - but as requiems and Good Friday mass of the presanctified - when black would have been worn - were originally non-communicating except for the celebrant, it was a rare occurrence and relegated to footnotes
[ 10. November 2014, 17:57: Message edited by: leo ]
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
Thanks to everybody for your replies, which are very informative. Having looked up an Angelus on wikipedia, that is indeed what closed the service. Would that be a usual way to finish the eucharist in a church of this type or is it particular to the occasion ?
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
There's actually no direct connexion to the Mass: the Angelus is traditionally rung thrice daily, at six, noon, and six. Since Sunday Mass in many parishes wraps up around noon, it's often said/sung immediately following. I will note that I have never observed this in an RC church, though.
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Planeta Plicata
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# 17543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
There's actually no direct connexion to the Mass: the Angelus is traditionally rung thrice daily, at six, noon, and six. Since Sunday Mass in many parishes wraps up around noon, it's often said/sung immediately following. I will note that I have never observed this in an RC church, though.
The Papal Angelus in St Peter's Square often immediately follows mass.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
Ooh, splendid! Well there you go, we're not making it up after all ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
The Angelus is recited or sung at many Anglo-Catholic parish following the principal Sunday Eucharist, again following a now fairly defunct Roman Catholic practice. In London, parishes of my acquaintance that do this include St Magnus Martyr, St Mary's Boerne Street, All Saints Margaret Street, and St Silas Kentish Town, though I am sure there are many others in greater London. In the States, my own parish of St Clement's Philadelphia does likewise.
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Planeta Plicata
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# 17543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If they were being really old-fashioned, they'd have changed out of black into purple vestments for the distribution.
Would they have? In what rite or use is that ordered?
both Fortescue and Ritual Notes - but as requiems and Good Friday mass of the presanctified - when black would have been worn - were originally non-communicating except for the celebrant, it was a rare occurrence and relegated to footnotes
Do you happen to recall where? All I can find in the 1917 Fortescue is the following:
quote:
The rite of distributing Communion out of Mass is this: ...
Communion may be given in this way immediately before or after Mass. In this case the priest wears the Mass vestments. If they are black, he does not give the blessing. Nor, if he says Mass with black vestments in Eastertide, does he add Alleluia after the versicle.
Except in this case, holy Communion is never given with black vestments. If it is to be given on All Souls' Day the priest wears a purple stole.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laud-able:
I was told at the time - I do not vouch for the accuracy of the information - that the Gospel was thus read to enlighten the dark north, which works well in the northern hemisphere, but not so well here.
I'm sure St Magnus the Martyr, being well within the M25, includes in its congregation many who see this ceremony as an illustration of the City of London in its wisdom preaching the gospel of unbridled capitalism to us poor benighted socialist northerners.
[ 10. November 2014, 21:43: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
The Church of St. Magnus the Martyr is what many would regard as "Nose-bleed high". I don't go there often enough to know how varied the liturgical practices are, but since Fr. Philip Warner took over as (Cardinal) Rector, the repertoire of liturgical practices, includes much of pre-Vatican II.
Every Mass I have been to at St. Magnus, was communicating and in both kinds. However old-fashioned the liturgical practices are, non-communicating Masses are a thing of the past, everywhere, as far as I am aware.
I am disposed to going to St. Magnus, but have got out of the habit of doing so, which is just the way things work out. Lest any misunderstanding should arise, which may have seemed that way on this thread earlier on, I met Fr. Philip Warner away from St. Magnus last week, and he and I greeted each other cordially.
[ 11. November 2014, 16:55: Message edited by: Ecclesiastical Flip-flop ]
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Planeta Plicata:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If they were being really old-fashioned, they'd have changed out of black into purple vestments for the distribution.
Would they have? In what rite or use is that ordered?
both Fortescue and Ritual Notes - but as requiems and Good Friday mass of the presanctified - when black would have been worn - were originally non-communicating except for the celebrant, it was a rare occurrence and relegated to footnotes
Do you happen to recall where? All I can find in the 1917 Fortescue is the following:
quote:
The rite of distributing Communion out of Mass is this: ...
Communion may be given in this way immediately before or after Mass. In this case the priest wears the Mass vestments. If they are black, he does not give the blessing. Nor, if he says Mass with black vestments in Eastertide, does he add Alleluia after the versicle.
Except in this case, holy Communion is never given with black vestments. If it is to be given on All Souls' Day the priest wears a purple stole.
Ritual Notes 11th edn p. 328 re Good Friday - towards the end of the veneration, the SSM are to take of their black vestments and wear purple. It doesn't mention returning to black for the final prayer.
also p. 38 says that on Good Friday and requiems, black is used except for the communion.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Sacerdote
Apprentice
# 11627
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Posted
Like Ecclesiastical Flip-flop I was first introduced to St Magnus the Martyr in 1960, so never knew it in the glory days of Fr Fynes Clinton's incumbency, when it was said even baptisms were in Latin! I was taken to the church by a friend who remembered the incident of the Kensitites wanting to remove the Catholic furnishings, and had actually seen the famous jam-jar, complete with maker's label, serving as a holy water font.
Another story from Fr Fynes' early days was that when incense was used for the first time at a sung Mass the protestant choir members made a great show of coughing and spluttering from the gallery every time the thurible appeared. After Mass Fr Fynes climbed the stairs, apologized to them for their discomfort, and assured them that they would not be troubled again. The next day they all received notice of their dismissal.
Around 1960 a possibly apocryphal story was doing the rounds that after Fr Fynes Clinton's death the Bishop of London, who was the patron of the living, was at a loss as to whom to appoint to this extraordinary Roman outpost scarcely a mile from his cathedral. He is said to have offered the living to Fr Colin Gill on condition that he did something - ANYTHING! - that would be seen as a token of St Magnus belonging to the Church of England! After due consideration Fr Gill is supposed to have offered to have Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament in English!
No reaction? Oh well, I suppose it just doesn't seem anything like as funny now as it did then.
There may be something in this tale, as in my experience Colin Gill never said or sang a word of Latin aloud at any publicly scheduled service. There were occasional Latin Masses for particular groups or societies, and for some years the Roman Rite continued to be used, with the offertory prayers & Canon (all sotto voce)in Latin, but with everything else in English & with a partially anglicanized calendar (Sundays after Trinity). If I remember rightly even Latin settings of the Mass were sung to BCP translations - crazy when you think that now most Anglican cathedrals happily sing Latin Masses as a norm.
It's true that even as early as 1960 there were no "non-communicating High/Sung Masses" at St Magnus, partly, perhaps, because the congregation had no convenient alternative Mass to attend for Communion, but a fair proportion of the "regulars" were still receiving in one kind in the early 70's. An RC friend from uni came with me to Mass in the post-conciliar 60s & was shocked that I received in one kind. He, of course, received, and in both kinds!
I think it was maybe while I was away in France in the late 60's that things started to change at St Magnus. Certainly by the the early 70's Fr Gill had introduced a curious blend of the old Roman Rite & "series 2". I believe there was considerable unhappiness at St Magnus over this "betrayal".(The last edition of the "English Missal" had Series 2 bound into it - o tempora, o mores ![[Frown]](frown.gif) )
But then I swam the Tiber & lost touch with most of my Anglican contacts.
BTW, Flip-flop, I see you and I also share a familiarity with 20c French liturgy - a bit different from St Magnus!
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The Angelus is recited or sung at many Anglo-Catholic parish following the principal Sunday Eucharist
Because it finishes around noon.
Sop it's because pf the time, not because the mass was the principal one.
This is true, though at A-C parishes the Angelus will usually be running late, since an 11:00 Mass won't be finishing until about 12:30, typically (sometimes even later) at these places. However, what the uninitiated should know is that they may encounter the Angelus at an Anglo-Catholic parish most typically following the principal Sunday high or sung Mass.
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sacerdote:
Like Ecclesiastical Flip-flop I was first introduced to St Magnus the Martyr in 1960, so never knew it in the glory days of Fr Fynes Clinton's incumbency, when it was said even baptisms were in Latin!
Around 1960 a possibly apocryphal story was doing the rounds that after Fr Fynes Clinton's death the Bishop of London, who was the patron of the living, was at a loss as to whom to appoint to this extraordinary Roman outpost scarcely a mile from his cathedral. He is said to have offered the living to Fr Colin Gill on condition that he did something - ANYTHING! - that would be seen as a token of St Magnus belonging to the Church of England! After due consideration Fr Gill is supposed to have offered to have Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament in English!
BTW, Flip-flop, I see you and I also share a familiarity with 20c French liturgy - a bit different from St Magnus!
It occurs to me that the Bishop of London referred to above was that of the Rt. Revd. Henry Colville Montgomery Campbell, in post from 1956 until 1961. He was a colourful character, with a dry sense of humour. I do not think he was a particular favourite with anglo-catholics, which would have reflected on his dealings with Fr. Colin Gill (who was previously the parish priest of St. Martin's Brighton). I mention this, because the said Bishop was previously Bishop of Guildford from 1949 until 1956, when he confirmed me in 1955.
Thank you very much for this interesting post, Sacerdote. You say that you see me, but when and where? If it happens again, do please make yourself known. Your notice of my interest in 20c French Liturgy, you must have spotted by reading between the lines.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras quote:
The Angelus is recited or sung at many Anglo-Catholic parish following the principal Sunday Eucharist...
I used to play at an AC Church where it was the first item of every Mass - after the first hymn if sung - and evening services were enlivened with either the Salve Regina or Regina caeli. The diocesan bishop loved the church and the music and used to join in with the best of them when he slipped into a Festal Evensong, just about visible through the clouds of incense.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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moonlitdoor
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# 11707
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Posted
Is it typically done in such a way that they uninitiated like me do not realise that it is two separate things ? If there had been a blessing I probably would have known, as that is what finishes the eucharist in my usual church, but maybe this style of church doesn't do that.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
It is usually done pretty seamlessly, though IME there is usually a "final hymn" at the end of mass proper before the altar party's procession to the Lady Shrine. But at an English Missal mass like you would find at St Magnus, the blessing and dismissal would be buried in the final prayers and rather more subdued (and inverted!) and easier for the "uninitiate" to miss.
[ 12. November 2014, 19:52: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
A priest of impeccable left wing credentials I know tells me he celebrated mass at St Magnus once. Afterwards a lady in a mantilla came up and said to him “’Allo, Ken. Remember me? You were a curate in Soho and I was a stripper in the Raymond Revuebar”.
Which just shows how symbolic and ritual worship can attract and incorporate those who would typically feel excluded by a purely verbal based service.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
A priest of impeccable left wing credentials
Who shall be nameless ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Of course, you are quite right in your comment. That's what gets me about self-styled 'inclusive' churches: they tend to only include the like-minded (mostly smug middle-class lefties like me).
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Sacerdote
Apprentice
# 11627
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Posted
Fear not, Ecclesiastical Flip-flop, your anonymity is safe! I meant "I see THAT you and I" are both familiar with French worship, not that I see YOU. There was a time when it was rare to find a Mass in France that didn't include "Un seul Seigneur, une seule foi ..."
Wasn't it Montgomery Campbell to whom it fell to consecrate the rebuilt St Alban's, Holborn? He was said to have objected to the proposed domed tabernacle on the high altar, and to have insisted that an aumbry be installed before he would perform the consecration. Apparently it wasn't until he arrived for the consecration that he saw how St Alban's had interpreted his requirement - a hugely elaborate tabernacle/sacrament house set in the centre of the east wall, right behind the high altar. The bishop insisted that they knew perfectly well that he had meant a modest safe in the north wall, preferably of a side chapel, but it couldn't be denied that what had been installed was an aumbry, and the congregation was already gathered for the consecration, so the bishop went ahead, though apparently not with a very good grace. As you are doubtless aware, the impressive "aumbry" is still there, though I confess I've always regretted that the original plan for a domed tabernacle - and a gothic baldacchino over the altar - didn't go ahead.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
A priest of impeccable left wing credentials I know tells me he celebrated mass at St Magnus once. Afterwards a lady in a mantilla came up and said to him “’Allo, Ken. Remember me? You were a curate in Soho and I was a stripper in the Raymond Revuebar”.
Which just shows how symbolic and ritual worship can attract and incorporate those who would typically feel excluded by a purely verbal based service.
I would have normally agreed and, in this case, perhaps, but on reflection, I think that it is more complicated than that. Of the three (former) strippers of my acquaintance, only one (now a physician) is a smells-and-bells spike; another a novus ordo franco-ontarian, and the third (now a carpenter, as their union has a better pension fund than her former employer) is United Church of Canada. Of course, it is quite possible that I do not know the entire professional histories of my fellow-worshippers.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Of course, you are quite right in your comment. That's what gets me about self-styled 'inclusive' churches: they tend to only include the like-minded (mostly smug middle-class lefties like me).
We aren't 'self-styled' inasmuch as we join the movement and abide by its statement of belief.
Inclusive Church is currently working of disability and mental health and how our churches can include, welcome and learn from such.
As a middle-class leftie, I am far from 'smug' because i find this issue very challenging.
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We aren't 'self-styled' inasmuch as we join the movement and abide by its statement of belief.
I thought the movement we joined was called the Holy Catholic Church. The problem I see with 'Inclusive Church' is that it implies that the rest of the church is exclusive, and that it buys into the consumerist model that it's OK to have different styles of the church for different people. There is truth in both of those statements, but to push both of them to the extreme is to ghetto-ise the Church. I want to see bog-standard churches everywhere just like bog-standard comprehensive schools.
I need to clarify the above as an outsider to the 'Inclusive Church' network: I've no quibble with its aims, and I don't know much about how it works out in practice. It's just that I find notices proclaiming 'We are an Inclusive Church' as off-putting as 'We are Bible-believing Christians.'
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
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# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sacerdote:
Fear not, Ecclesiastical Flip-flop, your anonymity is safe! I meant "I see THAT you and I" are both familiar with French worship, not that I see YOU. There was a time when it was rare to find a Mass in France that didn't include "Un seul Seigneur, une seule foi ..."
Wasn't it Montgomery Campbell to whom it fell to consecrate the rebuilt St Alban's, Holborn? He was said to have objected to the proposed domed tabernacle on the high altar, and to have insisted that an aumbry be installed before he would perform the consecration. Apparently it wasn't until he arrived for the consecration that he saw how St Alban's had interpreted his requirement - a hugely elaborate tabernacle/sacrament house set in the centre of the east wall, right behind the high altar. The bishop insisted that they knew perfectly well that he had meant a modest safe in the north wall, preferably of a side chapel, but it couldn't be denied that what had been installed was an aumbry, and the congregation was already gathered for the consecration, so the bishop went ahead, though apparently not with a very good grace. As you are doubtless aware, the impressive "aumbry" is still there, though I confess I've always regretted that the original plan for a domed tabernacle - and a gothic baldacchino over the altar - didn't go ahead.
It is quite feasible that St. Alban's Holborn was reconsecrated during Bp Montgomery-Campbell's time as Bishop of London, in which case, it would have fallen to him to do so as a matter of course and what you say about him is typical of the man.
If I may indulge in a brief tangent, there is a classic anecdote about him. He was the last Bishop of Guildford to reside in Farnham Castle Palace. One day, he was in the town-centre in Farnham, when there was a retreat going on locally, and he came across a retreatant who had popped out. The Bishop enquired, "What are you doing here?". The retreatant replied, "The Holy Spirit has sent me out to do a bit of shopping". "Well, you are both wrong; it is early closing day!" Replied the Bishop. (End of tangent.)
Sacerdote, you noticed my current signature in French and this can change. I will let you into a secret; the publication "Magnificat" I have sent from France and so is published in the French Language. I selected that at random from there, making that my signature for the time-being.
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In the pre Vatican 2 Roman Rite as celebrated in Catholic churches in full communion with the Bishop of Rome the sequence of colours for Good Friday was black. Entering the church the celebrant wore (liturgically) alb and black stole.
After readings and the Passion gospel he put on a black cope in addition. If there was a deacon and subdeacon they assumed dalmatic and tunicle for the Solemn Prayers. For the Veneration of the Cross cope and dalmatic and tunicle were removed.
The celebrant( and his assistants ) then removed the black stole and vested in purple stole and chasuble for the Communion service - no maniples on that day.The celebrant (or deacon) had a white humeral veil also for the transfer of the Blessed Sacrament from the Altar of Repose to the main altar.
Until the later liturgical reforms it was very
common in Catholic churches to have Requiem Masses
in black vestments celebrated during the week on ferial days.On these days the celebrant would NOT change the liturgical colour for the distribution of Communion.Of course as mentioned elsewhere there were special rubrics for a Requiem Mass,the best known being (a) abbreviated prayers at the beginning and (b) no blessing at the end.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We aren't 'self-styled' inasmuch as we join the movement and abide by its statement of belief.
I thought the movement we joined was called the Holy Catholic Church. The problem I see with 'Inclusive Church' is that it implies that the rest of the church is exclusive, and that it buys into the consumerist model that it's OK to have different styles of the church for different people. There is truth in both of those statements, but to push both of them to the extreme is to ghetto-ise the Church. I want to see bog-standard churches everywhere just like bog-standard comprehensive schools.
I need to clarify the above as an outsider to the 'Inclusive Church' network: I've no quibble with its aims, and I don't know much about how it works out in practice. It's just that I find notices proclaiming 'We are an Inclusive Church' as off-putting as 'We are Bible-believing Christians.'
I sort of agree but when many parts of the 'hole catholic church' exclude some people, they need to know that they will find a welcome elsewhere.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Revd Father and Mr. Reader, this is neither the time nor the place - as I am sure you both know full well!
djo, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
In the pre Vatican 2 Roman Rite as celebrated in Catholic churches in full communion with the Bishop of Rome the sequence of colours for Good Friday was black. Entering the church the celebrant wore (liturgically) alb and black stole.
After readings and the Passion gospel he put on a black cope in addition. If there was a deacon and subdeacon they assumed dalmatic and tunicle for the Solemn Prayers. For the Veneration of the Cross cope and dalmatic and tunicle were removed.
The celebrant( and his assistants ) then removed the black stole and vested in purple stole and chasuble for the Communion service - no maniples on that day.The celebrant (or deacon) had a white humeral veil also for the transfer of the Blessed Sacrament from the Altar of Repose to the main altar.
It's perhaps worth noting that this rite dated from 1956. Previously black vestments (maniple, stole, and chasuble) were worn for the entire rite.
Posts: 371 | From: Princeton, NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
that looks very nice to see lots in it!
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magic Wand:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
In the pre Vatican 2 Roman Rite as celebrated in Catholic churches in full communion with the Bishop of Rome the sequence of colours for Good Friday was black. Entering the church the celebrant wore (liturgically) alb and black stole.
After readings and the Passion gospel he put on a black cope in addition. If there was a deacon and subdeacon they assumed dalmatic and tunicle for the Solemn Prayers. For the Veneration of the Cross cope and dalmatic and tunicle were removed.
The celebrant( and his assistants ) then removed the black stole and vested in purple stole and chasuble for the Communion service - no maniples on that day.The celebrant (or deacon) had a white humeral veil also for the transfer of the Blessed Sacrament from the Altar of Repose to the main altar.
It's perhaps worth noting that this rite dated from 1956. Previously black vestments (maniple, stole, and chasuble) were worn for the entire rite.
That's because communion was reserved for the priest alone.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
I read the report which I thought was interesting and well written. Thank you to Hector for that.
32 present for the main service of the week... That made me think.
How many were clergy / how many choir (are they paid). What age were the people?
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
On the day that I was there, there were slightly more people, possibly because it was Remembrance day, but not I should say more than about 50. That is in the congregation. The choir were out of sight upstairs so their number could not be seen, but I think from the sound of the singing that it was only a handful. Although I am no musician, and would not generally care for a service with no congregational singing, I must say that the choir whatever their number were very good.
3 people were in the clergy party. I thought at the time they were all priests as they all seemed to be dressed in chasubles, but I have found out since that deacons can wear a vestment very similar to the priest's chasuble, which I did not know at the time.
The congregation were mostly 50s and 60s in age but with a few either side.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
3 people were in the clergy party. I thought at the time they were all priests as they all seemed to be dressed in chasubles, but I have found out since that deacons can wear a vestment very similar to the priest's chasuble, which I did not know at the time.
It's likely, even at St Magnus, that one was a layman as acting as subdeacon in tunicle (as in the example* I linked).
*(an example of a lay subdeacon, not of a tunicle, since those photos are from Good Friday, when a vestment even more similar to the priest's chasuble is worn).
[ 23. November 2014, 22:50: Message edited by: Knopwood ]
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
Looking over the posts:
total income over £139,000.
Sunday congregation 30-40.
From what I read hear it seems a bit of a museum piece... But I'd be interested to know if the church people engage in mission and outreach.
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Looking over the posts:
total income over £139,000.
Sunday congregation 30-40.
From what I read hear it seems a bit of a museum piece... But I'd be interested to know if the church people engage in mission and outreach.
Looking at their accounts it doesn't as if mission and outreach is high on the agenda based on what is spent. It's very sad that a church with an income of £150K plus gives to little to charitable causes: I wonder with ML whether it's a museum piece fantastic for those who love that kind of expression of "church" but very very irrelevant given the style and content of services to those on the outside.
The figures from the accounts are below - my goodness how sad is it that the church spends more on entertainment than mission? How on earth do they keep their charitable status?
Current balance £247k
Mission (aka "Charitable Giving"
2011 550 2012 2000 2013 1253
Entertainment
2011 1416 2012 2887 2013 2673
In each year more is
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
We have a long-standing principle in Ecclesiantics that we do not discuss the internal affairs of individual churches or parishes. There is a fine line to tread on that in the case of the discussion of an MW report which might properly include wider circumstances relating to how and why a church worships as it does, but in my view, debates as to a church's accounts and spending decisions are clearly over the line. Please confine this thread to the discussion of the report itself.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
I'm sorry if I have crossed a line, I'm afraid I wasn't aware of it, I was simply reflecting on the report and the subsequent comments and how it struck me.
The reports about worship are good, and I did find this one interesting. I do think worship is so often the focus and expression of a christian community and I am intrigued at churches which place so much emphasis on their tradition, and that often leads, I fear, to a decline in congregations.
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
IIRC, St. Magnus has an eclectic and 'gathered' congregation, rather than being a local parish community.
The excellent music is a long-standing tradition, as I recall an Ascension Day midday Mass many years ago, at which one of those jolly settings by young Mr. Mozart was beautifully rendered by just four people (there were 25-30 in the congo).
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
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Posted
I guess that choir, BF, is a professional one.
Is it - anyone know?
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
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