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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Priest is a Walking Sacrament
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I heard this phrase before when referring to ordained clergy. What do people think, is it hubris or is it an apt metaphor?
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
What is it even meant to mean?
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I heard this phrase before when referring to ordained clergy. What do people think, is it hubris or is it an apt metaphor?
I think it's dangerous nonsense, but I'm as low church as they come, completely rejecting any concept of a clergy-laity division...
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
What is it even meant to mean?
Taking a jab at this:
In the sense that a sacrament is defined as an instrument of God with a visible sign and an invisible grace, the priest is understood to signify (point to) Christ's priesthood, and exercise his priesthood through their own sacramental ministry.
We see this in the celebration of the Eucharist, it is Christ who performs the celebration, but the priest is the visible instrument pointing the people of God to Christ.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
IMHO the priest is no more a walking sacrament than any baptized believing Christian. And in any case, sacraments are meant to be, er, partaken of. So we're either back to the cannibalism threads or ... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Depends on how good looking they are!
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
What is it even meant to mean?
Taking a jab at this:
In the sense that a sacrament is defined as an instrument of God with a visible sign and an invisible grace, the priest is understood to signify (point to) Christ's priesthood, and exercise his priesthood through their own sacramental ministry.
We see this in the celebration of the Eucharist, it is Christ who performs the celebration, but the priest is the visible instrument pointing the people of God to Christ.
And a deacon? Represents Christ's servant role as opposed to his intercessory role?
[ 22. September 2014, 04:50: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
We see this in the celebration of the Eucharist, it is Christ who performs the celebration, but the priest is the visible instrument pointing the people of God to Christ.
All this veberating of the symbols and handers out of of communion is rather pretentious in my view.
Jesus said 'do this in remembrance of me'. He was breaking bread and drinking wine with his closest friends.
Lets do that - remember Jesus when we eat with our closest friends, be it pasta and beer or bread and wine.
In my Church the minister and whoever else is at hand give out the read and wine - which is just as it should be imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
But I think the first thing you need to define is the grace conferred (inward grace) at ordination ( outward sign). What is it?
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a theological scrapbook
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I dislike professional aggrandisment and support the royal priesthood in which all the baptised share.
However, the whole of a priest's life is about being taken, broken and shared - not just during the time of mass.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
However, the whole of a priest's life is about being taken, broken and shared - not just during the time of mass.
But in what way do you see this as being different from the dying to self and sacrificial love that all Jesus-followers are called to?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
It's nonsense, bad theology, pretentious and encourages 'it's all about me' habits of thought.
Ask yourself what is a sacrament and the answer is 'an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace'. Ask yourself, 'who or what represents Christ at the Eucharist?'. The answer isn't the man or woman celebrating. It is the bread and the wine.
It is the bread and the wine that mediates the inward and spiritual grace, not the priest. It is the Lord's Table, not the Revd X's.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Yep. Hence the character of the presider having no bearing on the efficacy of the sacrament of the Eucharist( presence of Christ).
[ 22. September 2014, 09:55: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
However, the whole of a priest's life is about being taken, broken and shared - not just during the time of mass.
As is the life of every believer - does that mean we're all priests?
All of us are visible signs of grace in all we do.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I dislike professional aggrandisment and support the royal priesthood in which all the baptised share.
Then why does so much of the church seem to think that a "priest" is somehow different?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Then why does so much of the church seem to think that a "priest" is somehow different?
Because there is confusion about what it means. It derives from a Greek word that means something like 'elder' but has absorbed into itself the meaning that goes with 'cohen' because there is no other English word extant that has that meaning.
Oddly most of those who object most to the word 'priest' are, or are members of churches that have, presbyteroi.
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Personally I think it something about commitment to the visible church ( as opposed to the technically invisible - but still the church) in those denominations that have Holy Orders.
From the etymology of the term from Wiki:
quote:
Historically, the word "order" (Latin ordo) designated an established civil body or corporation with a hierarchy, and ordinatio meant legal incorporation into an ordo. The word "holy" refers to the Church. In context, therefore, a holy order is set apart for ministry in the Church.
There is a commitment to toe the line of your particular denomination in its various presentations of visibility.
Lay persons have much more freedom to toe their own line of what they understand the priesthood of all believers to be.
[ cross posted with Enoch. Meant to reply to Exclamation Mark]
[ 22. September 2014, 11:40: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Then why does so much of the church seem to think that a "priest" is somehow different?
Because there is confusion about what it means. It derives from a Greek word that means something like 'elder' but has absorbed into itself the meaning that goes with 'cohen' because there is no other English word extant that has that meaning.
Oddly most of those who object most to the word 'priest' are, or are members of churches that have, presbyteroi.
You forget that there are three orders in the sacrament of Holy Orders.
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a theological scrapbook
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
The idea strikes me as dangerous, potentially elevating the priest to a level at which he can do no wrong. That leads to all sorts of ills. My take on holy orders is that they confer available grace to persevere faithfully in ministry, providing that as with any Christian the ordained minister is and remains open to the effectual reception and working of such grace. However, while I see ordination as an indelible sacrament that confers "character", I don't think it is helpful or accurate to say that it brings about ontological change.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
... However, while I see ordination as an indelible sacrament that confers "character", I don't think it is helpful or accurate to say that it brings about ontological change.
Does it confer 'character' or does it confer gifts and authority? 'Character' sounds more like something ontological.
Likewise, to please Evensong, does the same apply to bishops and deacons - though whatever the theory, in the CofE a deacon is an ecclesiastical apprentice?
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Frankly, the phrase sounds pompous beyond words. And wrong. S/he administers sacraments; s/he isn't one. Such puffery!
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
However, while I see ordination as an indelible sacrament that confers "character", I don't think it is helpful or accurate to say that it brings about ontological change.
That's mystifying, since the former does nothing else but to spell out the details of the latter.
Anyhow, I'm as "high church" as any but like Siegfried I have no idea what the thread title is even supposed to mean.
If a priest is a "walking sacrament" simply by virtue of having been ordained, then I'm a "walking sacrament" simply by virtue of having been baptised.
To call a priest a walking "sacrosanct sign producing grace" seems odd otherwise. Clearly, a priest is instrumental in producing such signs, but that's not the same as being one.
I would be happier with saying something like "the priest is a walking icon of Christ."
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Perhaps what is meant is similar to the verse in Romans which talks about a living sacrifice, but then that, too, is extended to all Christians, not just priests.
I have heard it argued that what sets priests apart is that they have dedicated their lives, full time, to serving in that way, rather than other Christians who have other jobs, etc. to spend their time on. But then where does that leave part-time NSMs who also lead busy lives in the secular world as well?
The church has a difficult task when persuading us that priests are special and set apart, while at the same time asking us to do a very large chunk of what was originally considered to be the priest's work, as we are to engage in 'every member ministry'. A tricky one, that.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Frankly, the phrase sounds pompous beyond words. And wrong. S/he administers sacraments; s/he isn't one. Such puffery!
A sacrament is the outward and visible sign of an inward grace. As such, in a sense, any Christian may be described as a sacrament inasmuch as s/he displays the grace and love of God. Clergy, in many denominations, are of course especially visible Christians.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
However, the whole of a priest's life is about being taken, broken and shared - not just during the time of mass.
As is the life of every believer - does that mean we're all priests?
If you're a Protestant, yes. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
Everyone who loves someone else unconditionally is a walking sacrament imv. As Jesus repeated the OT commandment that we must love one another, this is surely a sacrament too.
A priest is a priest as he or she has been called to give their lives into a holy order. Whether or not there are other calls such as jobs or family that call on some of their time, the particular organised church they are called into takes priority in their service of God.
Everyone has a specific calling of some kind, and all are called to love one another. We're all ambassadors for Christ, if we call ourselves Christians.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
As a Salvationist I would say that the whole of life as lived by a Christian disciple is a sacrament:
My life must be Christ's broken bread;
My love his outpoured wine;
A cup o'erfilled,
A table spread
Beneath his name and sign,
That other souls, refreshed and fed,
May share his life through mine.
Schillebeeckx would possibly agree when he basically says that if Christ is the sacrament of God then the church (all all its ministries), is a sacrament of Christ.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You forget that there are three orders in the sacrament of Holy Orders.
It's not that I forget, it's that I just don't believe in that kind of hierarchy or order.
[ 22. September 2014, 20:32: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
However, the whole of a priest's life is about being taken, broken and shared - not just during the time of mass.
As is the life of every believer - does that mean we're all priests?
If you're a Protestant, yes.
Well I'd prefer to be known as a Christian myself -- I don't think the people meeting me would ever think "He's a protestant..."
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Clergy, in many denominations, are of course especially visible Christians.
Surely anyone who displays or demonstrates the love of God and/or the attitude of Christ is equally visible - they simply don't wear visibly different clothes (internally we might say that they are clothed in righteousness).
[ 22. September 2014, 20:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
However, the whole of a priest's life is about being taken, broken and shared - not just during the time of mass.
But in what way do you see this as being different from the dying to self and sacrificial love that all Jesus-followers are called to?
It is not different except insofar as I unplug my phone at night.
Priests are priests 24/7
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
However, the whole of a priest's life is about being taken, broken and shared - not just during the time of mass.
But in what way do you see this as being different from the dying to self and sacrificial love that all Jesus-followers are called to?
Priests are priests 24/7
Believers are believers 24/7. No difference.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
However, the whole of a priest's life is about being taken, broken and shared - not just during the time of mass.
As is the life of every believer - does that mean we're all priests?
All of us are visible signs of grace in all we do.
No, we are not all priests.
The whole church embodies the priesthood of Christ but that does not mean that we are interchangeable.
In S. Paul's words, different limbs make up the whole body but a leg cannot replace an eye.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
But we give special honour to the less desirable members among us don't we?
Jengie
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
If as Peter says we are a royal priesthood then we are all priests.... not all elders, deacons, overseers or whatever. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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JJ
SDG
blog
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I led worship on Sunday based on that passage in 1 Peter.
My quick take was that as priests we are called firstly, to offer sacrifices - no longer for sin but of praise and of our lives - and secondly, to act as a vehicle for God's presence, both to build one another up in the congregation of believers, and to bring it to those outside.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Clergy, in many denominations, are of course especially visible Christians.
Surely anyone who displays or demonstrates the love of God and/or the attitude of Christ is equally visible - they simply don't wear visibly different clothes (internally we might say that they are clothed in righteousness).
Except not.
Much as I would like to believe that its possible to identify Christians by their behaviour, IME Christians and non-Christians desplay "christian" behaviour about the same amount.
One could conclude, though I don't, that that simply reflects the fact that belief in Christ has little or nothing to do with demonstrating the love of God, as you put it. I believe that it is a mark of the fact that most other religions either started out with similar behavioural demands to those of Christianity, or have adopted ours -- we won, so to speak. And for those of no particular faith of any kind, the "christian" standards of behaviour are pretty much those expected of good citizens regardless of belief.
Having said which, I have enormous difficulty privileging the behaviour and witness of the ordained over those of any baptized Christian. Except that, as pointed out, they are sometimes more visible because of their dress.
John
[ 22. September 2014, 20:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Frankly, the phrase sounds pompous beyond words. And wrong. S/he administers sacraments; s/he isn't one. Such puffery!
And pass the white port.
Priestcraft and pomposity are in everlasting union. Much comedy to be had in the self-important club of fathers. Shame about the darkside that comes with any tight-knit elite. Nepotism's the least of it: if someone's in the club, you cover for them, for the sake of the club.
We all know where that's led. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Frankly, the phrase sounds pompous beyond words. And wrong. S/he administers sacraments; s/he isn't one. Such puffery!
And pass the white port.
Priestcraft and pomposity are in everlasting union. Much comedy to be had in the self-important club of fathers. Shame about the darkside that comes with any tight-knit elite. Nepotism's the least of it: if someone's in the club, you cover for them, for the sake of the club.
We all know where that's led.
So right and so sad
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
However, the whole of a priest's life is about being taken, broken and shared - not just during the time of mass.
As is the life of every believer - does that mean we're all priests?
All of us are visible signs of grace in all we do.
No, we are not all priests.
The whole church embodies the priesthood of Christ but that does not mean that we are interchangeable.
In S. Paul's words, different limbs make up the whole body but a leg cannot replace an eye.
Interesting then, that the context of Paul's words contains no reference at all to priests nor to any artificial divides in the church (e.g clergy/laity).
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Pope Peter I says otherwise.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Clergy, in many denominations, are of course especially visible Christians.
Surely anyone who displays or demonstrates the love of God and/or the attitude of Christ is equally visible - they simply don't wear visibly different clothes (internally we might say that they are clothed in righteousness).
Equally visible to those in the know, perhaps. But a person who wears a garment or badge which is fairly widely understood in a particular culture to be the mark of a Christian (a cross in the lapel: possibly an ichthus)or of a particular role which presupposes being a Christian (distinctively clerical dress) is especially visible. Which is why there have been plenty of times in my life when I have been glad that I do not wear any distinguishing clothes or badges of a faith which a moment of aggression or anger might have made some onlookers think the worse of.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Pope Peter I says otherwise.
Where, please? If you are referring to 1Pet 2, this appears to be referring to the whole household of faith.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Absolutely Enoch. He who has a diminutive papal name let him see.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Pope Peter I says otherwise.
Where, please? If you are referring to 1Pet 2, this appears to be referring to the whole household of faith.
Absolutely Enoch. He who has a diminutive papal name let him see.
Sigh. You guys are talking about the author who wrote the following, right?
quote:
1 Peter 5:1-6
So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory. Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that in due time he may exalt you.
Pope Peter, proto-Protestant? I think not.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Tend the flock of God that is your charge
Which word in Greek are you translating "charge" in that verse?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Indeed not. Proto-Roman neither.
[ 23. September 2014, 10:09: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Which word in Greek are you translating "charge" in that verse?
The quote above was from the RSV-CE. I do not know Koine Greek.
NRSV also has "to tend the flock of God that is in your charge, exercising the oversight." ESV has "shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight." AV has "feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof." NJB has "give a shepherd's care to the flock of God that is entrusted to you: watch over it." NIV has "be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them." NAB-RE has "tend the flock of God in your midst, [overseeing]."
The translations are quite varied in the exact words used, but seem to me rather consistent in the meaning expressed. If I should guess, then probably some translations are elaborating given the clear context (talking to the elders and about oversight).
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
ESV has "shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight."
As reflected in most of the alternative translations you offer above, there is no word in verse 2 for "charge". The only place in the context where there is something approaching it is in verse 3, corresponding to "your lot", in a negative context of not lording it over the hapless bunch which God's lucky dip has thrown up around you.
(I also note the near-universal use of "among" rather than "over" in these translations for the Greek preposition "en"; and while there is the verb "shepherd", unless I'm mistaken you'll be struggling to find anywhere in the NT where anyone in the church apart from Jesus is referred to as a shepherd).
I'd like to see your case for "oversight" as described here being equivalent to "priesthood" (of some on behalf of others).
[ 23. September 2014, 12:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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