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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Imagine there's no heaven (nor hell, nor anything after you're dead)
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
LaRoc's post here got me thinking
quote:
my version of Heaven also includes Muslims, Hindus, Wicca's, Candomblezeiros, Atheists (they'll be a bit cross when they arrive there, but they'll get over it)
What difference does it or should it make to your religious faith if there is nothing after you die?
My initial answer: It isn't here right now for me, so it makes no difference at all in how I live at present. I find comfort in religious practice and faith, and think religion guides us ethically, but the life after death angle, is not important. It is a nice idea in some ways, but very central for me.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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mrWaters
Shipmate
# 18171
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Posted
"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him"
It is generally much easier for anyone to live a life with belief in a supreme being and afterlife. I remember when I was little I was terrified of a prospect of the whole faith to be one of the children's stories. I remember thinking what would happen after my death, and seeing this emptiness and blackness (after that I usually cried, stopped doing that about a decade ago).
But apart from that. Faith gives one some moral compass, the one you should believe in no matter of what your priest tells you. The church may help you to arrive at those convictions, however without God, shouldn't you be about the same?
Posts: 80 | From: Aberdeen | Registered: Jul 2014
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
no prophet's flag is set so...:
LaRoc's post here got me thinking
Thanks for this, but I'm not a Lady.
I mostly agree with the rest of your post.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I remember a friend saying to me that there's no such thing as oblivion, and I did a double take; I thought I ought to mind, but then it was a big relief. I feel there's nothing to worry about. Hence my current sig.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
What difference does it or should it make to your religious faith if there is nothing after you die?
My initial answer: It isn't here right now for me, so it makes no difference at all in how I live at present.
I find that it makes all the difference for me. I have a detailed belief in life after death as an extension of life before death and it prompts me to make the effort to change my life in ways that I don't expect to "pay off" before I die. To the contrary, it prompts me to be more determined to live my life according to my belief about how God wants me to live, even though it means giving up things that seem like they would make me happier.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
There's a contradiction in the claim that everyone is sitting side by side in Heaven and that everyone is happy with being in Heaven.
Why would that be preferable to everyone getting the heaven that they wanted. If you want to think that only those in your sect are elect, then perhaps you go to such a heaven and don't see the other people who are in some other place.
The alternative is that you are changed so you're happy with the heaven defined by someone else.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Carex
Shipmate
# 9643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
It is generally much easier for anyone to live a life with belief in a supreme being and afterlife.
[citation needed]
My personal experience is the opposite - I find it easier to live without such a belief.
quote:
...Faith gives one some moral compass... however without God, shouldn't you be about the same?
I haven't find a strong correlation between faith and morality. Some atheists have a strong moral sense without having given it a lot of thought. Some professed Christians are, in my view, particularly immoral.
Personally I find it more admirable when someone does "good" simply because it is the right thing to do rather than for the potential rewards or or fear of suffering in the afterlife.
So for me it makes no difference in how I behave today whether or not there is an afterlife, or what happens in it. I still try to do what I believe to be the right thing.
Posts: 1425 | Registered: Jun 2005
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mrWaters
Shipmate
# 18171
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
[citation needed]
Edmondson, D., Park, C., Chaudoir, S., Wortmann, J. (2008) 'Death without God: Religious Struggle, Death Concerns, and Depression in the Terminally Ill', Psychological Science, 19(8), pp. 754-758.
It basically says that proper religious beliefs help to deal with death among terminally ill. Obviously I wrote this without any real academic references like those, it just seems to me like a common sense, that belief in life after death helps to deal with death. Of course it does not work for everyone, however I think most people work like that.
Anyway, I do believe that existence of God, even though it acts for some as mobilization, shouldn't really affect your morality. Without supreme being would you really be an immoral prick?
Posts: 80 | From: Aberdeen | Registered: Jul 2014
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
I'm with St. Paul.
1 Corinthians 15:12-19New International Version (NIV)
quote:
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.
And I have nothing more to add here.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Depends on the beliefs system.
If religion is about following rules that inhibit you from doing what you really want but that's the price for getting into heaven and/or avoiding hell, then eliminating an afterlife has huge effect, you are free to - whatever, have sex with lots of people or sleep in on Sundays or quit your "God-pleasing" job and do the work you really long to, feel free to cuss and hold grudges. Not rob banks, there's still the political law to deal with.
If religion is about enjoying the person who is God, and following wise guidelines for a happier healthier life as long as that life lasts, then heaven/hell is not a primary issue, more like a side effect.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
[citation needed]
Edmondson, D., Park, C., Chaudoir, S., Wortmann, J. (2008) 'Death without God: Religious Struggle, Death Concerns, and Depression in the Terminally Ill', Psychological Science, 19(8), pp. 754-758.
It basically says that proper religious beliefs help to deal with death among terminally ill.
To be pedantic for a moment, that would suggest that it's easier to die with belief in a supreme being and afterlife, rather than it being easier to live a life with belief in a supreme being and afterlife as you originally said.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Dhying is not going to be any easier or harder because I know* that there is no heaven or hell and that I will be dead. Full stop. Even when long ago I believed there was a heaven, it was only a vague somewhat sceptical view! Like many atheists I know, I absolutely could not return to belief, even if I knew I was to die tomorrow. Because of medical expertise, this is extremely unlikely to happen.
*know = 99.99 recurring knowledge!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Some of my friends think and believe that after all are dead and come alive because of Jesus, they all end up together in the world, not in Heaven. I do not understand what will happen to us after we die.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
Some of my friends think and believe that after all are dead and come alive because of Jesus, they all end up together in the world, not in Heaven. I do not understand what will happen to us after we die.
This is an ancient view that really is closer to the OT portrayal of the afterlife than the disembodied souls in heaven pov, which is closer to a Greek view. In this OT view (and presumably the view of your friends) when we die we are dead-- full stop. Rotting in the grave. When Jesus returns, we will be resurrected in a new heaven and new earth. fwiw this seems to be the view promoted in the NIcene and Apostle's Creeds.
[ 25. October 2014, 14:56: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
If there turns out to be nothing after death, it makes no difference to my faith in and relationship with the living God while I'm here.
In fact, I'm more alive because of consciousness of God, and if this continues after physical death in any form it will be icing on the cake.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
For me the crucial point is that Jesus taught about the Kingdom. Many Christians seem to have bypassed some of the significance of that teaching and focused everything in on whether we're in or out and will therefore have a good time in the afterlife.This has of course also proved to be an excellent method for attempting to control people's behaviour.....
However if it's about the Kingdom then it's about participating in seeing some of the things Jesus taught break in to the here and now (Sermon on the Mount and Parables stuff for example). These things will be fully inaugurated in the age to come.
So although I do believe in an age to come, I also think that it isn't because of that belief that I try to live the way I do. It's because I've been captured by the person and teaching of Christ and I cannot let it go!
This idea was first planted in me when I read the Narnia books as a child and got a glimpse of the possibility of the Kingdom being in another realm, outside of our time and space yet able to affect the here and now.I remember regularly feeling that I'd understood it, then feeling it slip away again. But I was convinced Aslan was nearby and that made all the difference.
Much the same for me nowadays!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
If there turns out to be nothing after death, it makes no difference to my faith in and relationship with the living God while I'm here.
Same here. In fact, for me, it would make things an awful lot easier.
I don't recall being terribly miffed about not existing before I was born; I can't imagine I'll be terribly miffed about not existing after I die.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I really can't get my head around the idea that there's just nothing at all, only extinction at death. It goes against everything I've ever believed or felt.
It would make life completely pointless and random. There would be no point in believing in God, no point in bothering with a code of ethics, you might just as well live for the moment and get as much as you could out of life, and everyone you meet. You're never going to experience the glory that is God in the afterlife, there will be no reunions with your family and friends, nothing at all. The only thing you can do is concentrate on the here and now and try to postpone the inevitable snuffing out of the candle for as long as possible. How grim is that for a world view?
No wonder people are afraid of death. For me personally death would simply be stepping out of a body, as Kahlil Gibran puts it so beautifully, "A moment of rest upon the wind, and another woman shall bear me". You continue, but in a different form. Having that taken away is to take away the purpose of life and hope along with it.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
It's a nonsense to belief there is nothing.
Why would you believe in salvation an d trust in Christ tio save you if you won't see him?
Isn't the whole point of heaven 'to be with Christ, which is far better?'
My testimony is "I know that my Redeemer lives." It's so special to me that I've had it tattooed on the inside of my upper arm!
Anyway, the full passage says:
I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me! *
That is the whole point of Heaven - I want to see Jesus.
* I am aware of the difficulties with this passage - let's not go there.
[ 25. October 2014, 17:25: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
[citation needed]
Edmondson, D., Park, C., Chaudoir, S., Wortmann, J. (2008) 'Death without God: Religious Struggle, Death Concerns, and Depression in the Terminally Ill', Psychological Science, 19(8), pp. 754-758.
It basically says that proper religious beliefs help to deal with death among terminally ill.
To be pedantic for a moment, that would suggest that it's easier to die with belief in a supreme being and afterlife, rather than it being easier to live a life with belief in a supreme being and afterlife as you originally said.
IME, the faithful fight just as hard to delay being carried away in the loving arms of Jesus as do atheists wishing to avoid cold dark, oblivion.
I think it easier for the living to deal with the death of a loved one if they believe there is something after, if there is a purpose.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Jesus shows us the way to live. The way to love. Not the way to die. I am uninterested in seeing Jesus and God after I die. Rather, see them now in the actions and words of others. It is pointless to see them after death. The good we need is now, in this sometimes bad place.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I think I'd end up adopting Puddleglum's philosophy:
"I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia."
[ 25. October 2014, 17:53: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
IME, the faithful fight just as hard to delay being carried away in the loving arms of Jesus as do atheists wishing to avoid cold dark, oblivion.
I think it easier for the living to deal with the death of a loved one if they believe there is something after, if there is a purpose.
Agreed.
For me, the instinct to fight against death in all but the most dire of circumstances has always validated the Jewish/ creedal notion referenced above that when we are dead we are dead until the resurrection. I also think it validates our experience of grief. We fight against death, we mourn it and curse it, precisely because it is the "final enemy" that has yet to be defeated.
[ 25. October 2014, 18:01: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I can't say anything for others, and I obviously haven't died yet. But when I came close to dying in spring (emergency surgery followed by ICU) it was a help to be able to commit everything into Jesus' hands and then lay back and let it go.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It's a nonsense to belief there is nothing.
Why would you believe in salvation an d trust in Christ tio save you if you won't see him?
Isn't the whole point of heaven 'to be with Christ, which is far better?'
My testimony is "I know that my Redeemer lives." It's so special to me that I've had it tattooed on the inside of my upper arm!
Anyway, the full passage says:
I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me! *
That is the whole point of Heaven - I want to see Jesus.
* I am aware of the difficulties with this passage - let's not go there.
To be clear, I do believe I will spend Eternity with Christ. However, it's my relationship with the living and risen Lord NOW that has the most impact on my life. I would still have that relationship and the effects of it if there was nothing after death.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am uninterested in seeing Jesus and God after I die.
Some of the saddest words I have ever read.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so ...
Jesus shows us the way to live. The way to love. Not the way to die. I am uninterested in seeing Jesus and God after I die. Rather, see them now in the actions and words of others. It is pointless to see them after death. The good we need is now, in this sometimes bad place.
This is quite similar to the religion of the Jews in the Torah. Though they knew nothing about Jesus, their Law was about living now in the present moment. The way to live and love. Of course we have Jesus as the sublime example of how to live, how to love and how to die. There's that old arguement that religion and belief in an afterlife is just we human being's way of coping with our mortality.
I've felt God's presence all my life. Sometimes very intensely, even in childhood. Sometimes it's strong. Other times it departs from me for a season. But it always returns. If anyone were to ask me to prove that it isn't a figment of my imagination I couldn't, not even to myself. As a youth I had a terror of death, but it's long gone. Oblivion can't hurt. I try very imperfectly to live in God's presence, and I trust him to care for my future and the future of all His creation.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I just don't understand why you keep trying to invent your own religion all the time.
The N ew testament is full of talk of heaven.
Can you really have Christian faith without resurrection life?
From 'today you will be with me in paradise' right through to 'we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is', THIS is the Christian hope. And because it's all focussed on the Lord Jesus I really don't understand why anyone doesn't want to meet him - especially when that's his very intention for us.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I am uninterested in seeing Jesus and God after I die.
Some of the saddest words I have ever read.
If it makes you less sad: want to see them now, and not interested in waiting until death.
PaulTH*'s post, right after your's says it rather well I think, as do some others upthread.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
And because it's all focussed on the Lord Jesus I really don't understand why anyone doesn't want to meet him
I'm not saying I don't want to meet him. I'd be delighted and enthralled! I'm just saying that I don't sure your certitudes about what happens when we die. I don't think we really know very much.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I can't see that seeing Jesus is particularly important to me. I haven't thought much about this. It might be nice, I guess. But I'm not some kind of groupie.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
For people who feel they've received adequate spiritual, psychological and/or material fulfillment in this life, perhaps the need for heaven is less. But for those who haven't, meeting with God in a place where there's no more want and no more sorrow is likely to be more meaningful.
I do think there's a certain lack of honesty in modern mainstream Christianity, which is to say that while we as individuals are free not to believe in heaven, our communal life of worship still 'pretends' that heaven is out their waiting for us. Our liturgies and hymns encourage us to pay lip service to the idea, but we rarely address the possibility that this is all a matter of form over content. It's obvious that few people in our culture want to play this rather sophisticated game.
Speaking for myself, my faith is weak, and I can hardly imagine meeting God beyond the very vague and cloudy way that I believe I've met him already. However, I'm not going to distance myself from the teaching that more is on offer, if not in this life then in the next. The question is whether God wants to meet me, not I him....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
For people who feel they've received adequate spiritual, psychological and/or material fulfillment in this life, perhaps the need for heaven is less.
I feel filled up quite full spiritually, psychologically, and materially, so it may be that I feel less of a need for heaven, but it also means I feel more of a desire for heaven. And the more fulfilled I feel, the more I want to help spread and share that feeling with as many people as I can for eternity, not just for a limited time.
I actually have a hard time understanding how someone can believe in God and not believe in some form of eternal life. Obviously, there are many people who believe in the former and not the latter, but it seems to me that if God does exist, that implies that there is much more to creation than the physical universe. (We already know that there is more to the physical universe itself than we can ever know about.) How does it make sense that God creates us as sentient creatures and limits our lives to a few decades? I know it makes sense to people who believe it, but I have a hard time seeing how.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There is an ambiguity about 'eternal' though. It is used sometimes to mean a time which stretches on and on, to infinity; but it can also mean 'without time'. So some people see the present moment as the gate to eternity, Blake maybe. If you get into that, the idea of an after-life seems odd, since there is no after.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
We get breathed out and live. Then we get breathed in again. I've no idea what the insides of the lungs of God might be like. But I still think we need to see it all now. Here. In the world. Can you be like Christ to me?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
quetzalcoatl: There is an ambiguity about 'eternal' though. It is used sometimes to mean a time which stretches on and on, to infinity; but it can also mean 'without time'.
I prefer the term 'outside of time', which is of course inaccurate too. There are many more than these two options.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm with ChastMastr - and Paul - on this.
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I think I'd end up adopting Puddleglum's philosophy:
"I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia."
Largely as a result of discussions on the Ship, I've thought long and hard about this, veered somewhat away from a belief in the resurrection (and thus in life after death) - and then almost in spite of myself, returned to this belief following Paul's reasoning in 1 Cor 15.
The above passage from The Silver Chair featured in my personal thought trajectory.
In the book, the happy reality is that there is a Narnia. That's the only reason Puddleglum's declaration is stirring. If there there was no Narnia, Puddleglum would be merely deluded and thus, as Paul says (more or less) to be pitied among all marshwiggles.
To lurch (as I often do) from CS Lewis to Douglas Adams in my cobbled-together practical theology, he is like Slartibartfast, preferring to be happy than right any day - which Slartibartfast admits unfortunately doesn't work (and appears not to work for Puddleglum either, given his disposition!).
I know not all christians feel this way, but if there's nothing after death, for me the whole thing is nothing but a delusion. I don't think I think it is though.
[ 26. October 2014, 07:29: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
If a belief in life after death is a delusion, then when we die, we won't know that as there will be no knowing, nothing.
If, on the other hand, there is something beyond death, that may be pleasure or pain. We still don't know.
Seems to me that believers in life after death do not behave any better (en masse, not necessarily as individuals) than those who do not believe. Societies anywhere, anytime are full of death, destruction and inequality.
Not sure where I stand. I'd be quite happy with nothing (or the thought of it, I wouldn't know nothing, after all). I find Jesus rather scary.
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, you would not know nothing; in fact, there isn't nothing. It's even worse than we thought!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I used to imagine this when I was 14 if not before. Existential horror starting at 11 in the face of Auschwitz and Hiroshima. And it wasn't imagine it was inhabit. Reading Wells and Camus didn't help either. Nihilistically looking forward to being switched off. Becoming null. Meaning that my consciousness, my existence was meaningless with the brief guilty narcotic of self-pleasure as my only pleasure. Which is why I was easily hijacked by Herbert W. Armstrong's publishing empire on the back of James Michener's The Source.
46 years later I cannot imagine for one moment that all will be well. It's a meaningless ... almost ... academic exercise to imagine a meaningless existence. Almost? I haven't the faintest idea how transcendence will be made real.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
What difference does it or should it make to your religious faith if there is nothing after you die?
Makes a lot of different to orthodox christian metanarrative. You're basically cutting out a huge chunk of the grand story and nullifying Jesus' resurrection and its bearing on our lives.
Screws with the questions of ultimate justice too and the problem of evil.
Cuts out the Kingdom of God/Heaven in its fullness which is the basis of the Good News.
And as cliff dweller points out, We will be resurrected in the New earth where God's will will be done on earth as it is in heaven. There will be no distinction between heaven and earth in the age to come.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by mrWaters:
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
[citation needed]
Edmondson, D., Park, C., Chaudoir, S., Wortmann, J. (2008) 'Death without God: Religious Struggle, Death Concerns, and Depression in the Terminally Ill', Psychological Science, 19(8), pp. 754-758.
It basically says that proper religious beliefs help to deal with death among terminally ill.
To be pedantic for a moment, that would suggest that it's easier to die with belief in a supreme being and afterlife, rather than it being easier to live a life with belief in a supreme being and afterlife as you originally said.
IME, the faithful fight just as hard to delay being carried away in the loving arms of Jesus as do atheists wishing to avoid cold dark, oblivion.
Different from my experience. I think trust in God does help people face death better.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I can't say anything for others, and I obviously haven't died yet. But when I came close to dying in spring (emergency surgery followed by ICU) it was a help to be able to commit everything into Jesus' hands and then lay back and let it go.
This.
[ 26. October 2014, 10:24: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
I find Jesus rather scary.
Can you imagine a non-scary Jesus? How would the non-scary Jesus be different from scary Jesus?
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
quote:
Can you imagine a non-scary Jesus? How would the non-scary Jesus be different from scary Jesus?
well, the Jesus I read about usually says "do this........ otherwise I won't know you/the Father won't know you/you will go to hell" (to put it briefly and baldly)
Paul, who I find even scarier, says exactly the same only more firmly.
A non-scary Jesus would be loving, kind, and understanding of the frailty of man or woman.
The only time I find Jesus' response non-scary is when the woman who haemorrhaged touched his cloak and Jesus called her "daughter".
And all this is rather a tangent to the OP. Sorry, admins!
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
There is an ambiguity about 'eternal' though. It is used sometimes to mean a time which stretches on and on, to infinity; but it can also mean 'without time'. So some people see the present moment as the gate to eternity, Blake maybe.
I have heard an analogy which appeals to me.
"Eternity is a circle, and time is a tangent to that circle. The present moment is where the tangent touches the circle."
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In the book, the happy reality is that there is a Narnia. That's the only reason Puddleglum's declaration is stirring. If there there was no Narnia, Puddleglum would be merely deluded and thus, as Paul says (more or less) to be pitied among all marshwiggles.
Oddly, it seems the opposite to me. And I assume I'm deluded about many things - as most of us must be judging by the differences of opinions expressed here. We can't all be right but all of us could be wrong.
I'll make the best guess I can, and if I'm wrong well, you may pity me if you wish. So it goes.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
I find Jesus rather scary.
Can you imagine a non-scary Jesus? How would the non-scary Jesus be different from scary Jesus?
A non-scary Jesus would be like Santa Claus. Then there is the problem that Santa Claus does not exist.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
And I assume I'm deluded about many things - as most of us must be judging by the differences of opinions expressed here. We can't all be right but all of us could be wrong.
I'll make the best guess I can, and if I'm wrong well, you may pity me if you wish. So it goes.
I don't think it's quite the same. Puddleglum says he prefers to willingly embrace his viewpoint even if it's wrong. I'm not sure many people here would go along with that, at least not avowedly so.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
quote:
Can you imagine a non-scary Jesus? How would the non-scary Jesus be different from scary Jesus?
well, the Jesus I read about usually says "do this........ otherwise I won't know you/the Father won't know you/you will go to hell" (to put it briefly and baldly)
Paul, who I find even scarier, says exactly the same only more firmly.
A non-scary Jesus would be loving, kind, and understanding of the frailty of man or woman.
The only time I find Jesus' response non-scary is when the woman who haemorrhaged touched his cloak and Jesus called her "daughter".
If Jesus is so scary that even Christians don't want to meet him in heaven, that seems like a big flaw in the Christian religion!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Santa Claus is scary.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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