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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: We don't sing any more
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I, as some may know, attend a congregation that generally doesn't sing, although amongst the individual members there's actually quite a high level of musicianship. Nevertheless, we partly exist as a place where people who don't get on with Church As It Is Generally Done and that includes singing, so as things stand we don't sing. You can if you like to some of our regular recorded music sections of the service, but it's not a central part of What We Do the way it often is.
So in a way I'm not in a position to complain, but the same day that I read http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9396872/the-threat-to-christmas-carols-and-how-to-save-them/ I went to the Christingle service at our local parish shack. The place was packed with Beavers to Scouts and their parents; about 60% adult overall probably. The carols were well known or to well known tunes.
Mrs LB and I both felt like we were singing a duet rather than taking part in congregational singing. You could sort of hear a vague murmuring, but nothing you'd really call singing. And definitely nothing you'd call enthusiastic. Embarrassed, possibly. Perhaps we should have been, being the only audible people there, but damn it I went for a good sing of Carols.
Is this a Thing? Is this a new Thing? Is it a local Thing? I don't know. But I'm surprised, Carol Services of any kind, at least, used to be enthusiastically joined in with, even the school one when I were a nipper.
[ 15. December 2014, 12:32: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
I think not singing is a Thing generally, but I think it's particularly an English (not British) Thing.
Aidan Kavanagh's rule about music in liturgy is simple: "One sings at celebrations". Even the Atheist Church sing, I think!
I don't think I'd want to do a Christianity that didn't involve singing.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
My experience has been that in churches with a strong tradition of singing (Lutheran, Methodist, even Episcopal), the people sing with gusto. It all depends, though, on the selection of music and the skill of the organist or other musician(s) at supporting congregational singing.
In Catholic churches people traditionally did not sing, and I have seen that this is still the case. There are some congregations, though, where the people do join in.
The modern megachurch rock-concert-as-church type thing, in my opinion, is not conducive to congregational participation, at least with the vocal cords.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
... The modern megachurch rock-concert-as-church type thing, in my opinion, is not conducive to congregational participation, at least with the vocal cords.
I agree.
Karl, what you say is really discouraging, particularly from an area where places like Dronfield and Hathersage have had traditions of singing with gusto their own carols which other people don't know.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The modern megachurch rock-concert-as-church type thing, in my opinion, is not conducive to congregational participation, at least with the vocal cords.
Here in ground zero for the megachurch movement, many of our megachurches are places where the congregational singing is most energetic and engaged. Others... not so much. It really depends on the style of the worship leader-- and how they envision their role. The style of music doesn't seem to have much to do with it-- I've seen energetic singing with all styles of worship, and apathetic, disinterested response to all genres as well. But it does seem to have something to do with the way the stage is set both literally and figuratively.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
I'd like to say I'm surprised at your experience at the Christingle but I can't.
Introducing probationer choristers to carols now means just that - expecting something like O come, all ye faithful to be completely unknown.
Our local primary school is a perfect example of what is happening now and John Rutter's article is not only spot on but perhaps doesn't go far enough.
Our primary has not one but two spaces large enough to whole school assemblies to take place - and they do, at least once a week - but they lack anyone capable of providing any music other than at the touch of a button. The school's 'music specialist' is a delightful woman, and recognises that she is woefully underequipped to provide basic musical education, but she's all there is or will be since there is no incentive for the school to have music at all. As a 'music specialist' she cannot play any instrument to sufficient level either to show the children what it sounds like or to lead singing; as she said Grade 4 clarinet over 30 years ago and nothing since isn't really good enough.
There was a volunteer from the local choral society (retired teacher) going in once a week but she was only allowed to 'do' music (singing really) as a voluntary after school activity and gave it up after 3 years because it was obvious that 90% of parents were only using it as a free childcare activity - any children who wanted to learn to sing were coming to me as part of the church choir.
I'm now going in twice before the school's carol service (a) because there is no one else, and (b) even some of the parents commented last year that a church with over 200 children in it produced so little sound.
Our local version of the church-rock-gospel phenomenon is still trying to get a community choir going - but the fact that they charge for this (the plant leader is a marketing guru in RL) hasn't gone down well. They've quietly ditched all bar one of their carol events this year.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The modern megachurch rock-concert-as-church type thing, in my opinion, is not conducive to congregational participation, at least with the vocal cords.
Here in ground zero for the megachurch movement, many of our megachurches are places where the congregational singing is most energetic and engaged. Others... not so much. It really depends on the style of the worship leader-- and how they envision their role. The style of music doesn't seem to have much to do with it-- I've seen energetic singing with all styles of worship, and apathetic, disinterested response to all genres as well. But it does seem to have something to do with the way the stage is set both literally and figuratively.
I agree. I've seen plenty of enthusiastic singing of worship songs (though not in megachurch settings as I don't think even Hillsong would qualify - don't think we have any megachurches in the UK). Just look at Spring Harvest/Soul Survivor/Momentum etc.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Couple of vague thoughts -
I sometimes look around to see if people's mouths are moving - they are. People are singing, but so quietly a person standing 2 feet away may not know.
The leader of a chorus I sing in includes some sing-alongs in the Christmas concert and people do sing! He tells them ahead of time there are some sing-alongs, and at the right time he turns to the audience instead of facing the orchestra and chorus. They sing loudly enough we on stage can hear them, even if nothing like a bunch of footballers after a winning game and a beer. Do we need choir directors to face the congregation and direct them instead of the choir?
Could it be people dislike standing out? If others sing softly, so do they? Many people also do the readings quietly, backing off from the mic after the first word or two startles them heard thru the mic.
How to entice change in group culture is a subject I wish I knew more about. Like, in my church plenty of people sign up to be readers, light the Advent candles, etc, in a different church I sometimes visit no one signed up to light Advent candles. No one. (The ushers had to do it). And the same few people do the readings. (Lots of people show up for work projects in both churches.)
How do you help people delight in participating in the worship program itself? Singing is one aspect of that.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Do we need choir directors to face the congregation and direct them instead of the choir?
All of the churches I know that have good, involved congregational singing do this. I don't think you'd get much of a response w/o it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
... Like, in my church plenty of people sign up to be readers, light the Advent candles, etc, in a different church I sometimes visit no one signed up to light Advent candles. No one. (The ushers had to do it). ...
That must be one of those strange cultural differences that nobody is aware of until a chance remark draws it out. Almost everywhere in the UK, in my experience, children come up to the front to light the Advent candles. Sometimes they fight about it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Amanda wrote:
quote:
In Catholic churches people traditionally did not sing, and I have seen that this is still the case. There are some congregations, though, where the people do join in.
Well, in Canada, there was a worship manual, which at least when I was still practicing(late 80s) was distributed to Catholic churches across the country. The second half of the book consisted of the music and words to the songs, so I have to assume that the compilers of the book were expecting people to sing.
The Catholic Book Of Worship
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
^One thing.
I'm sure Amanda's observation was accurate pre-V2, and probably still is in parishes aspiring to a more traditonal style of worship. That CBW from 1972 is very post-V2, as can be seen by some of the song choices.
The version we were using in the late 70s was even more off-the-wall, containing things like the Battle Hymn Of The Republic and "Negro Spirituals". Trust me, nothing sounds more eerily grating than a bunch of white, middle-class Canadian suburbaites, none of whom had likely even heard a "Negro Spiritual" before, trying to get their way through Were You There.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Despite the growth in community choirs - and there is something of a resurgence in choral singing in a 'secular' context, I know of at least three popular choirs in the small town where I live - I think the OP does represent a trend.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
The more liberal Anglican parish here tends to be the one where most of the weddings and funerals take place - although a good number happen at the evangelical parish too. Feedback from there suggests that few people know any of the words to the hymns these days.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The more liberal Anglican parish here tends to be the one where most of the weddings and funerals take place - although a good number happen at the evangelical parish too. Feedback from there suggests that few people know any of the words to the hymns these days.
But that doesn't mean they're not singing. It just means they're not singing traditional hymns.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I go to a chari church (New Frontiers) with a Sunday congregation of a couple of hundred per service and we sing with great enthusiasm, whether led by a full band with electric guitars or the occasional unaccompanied verse or even accompanied by a harp (our musical director is a classical harpist who used to teach music at Kings' School). Being chari, we occasionally get spontaneous singing too.
But I've attended the parish carol service and generally everyone sings there. The carol service is very much part of the school calendar and this year we've had to de-camp to the garden of a local manor as we can't fit everyone who wants to attend in the parish church.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Do we need choir directors to face the congregation and direct them instead of the choir?
All of the churches I know that have good, involved congregational singing do this. I don't think you'd get much of a response w/o it.
Thanks, now I'm remembering a church I visited a few times where the pastor moved his hands directing congregational singing - not the baton style of beats directing but moving the hand up and down with the notes, like I've seen at children's camps. (The speed of course also keeps the tempo.) That church had hymnals with the music, so it wasn't making up for lack of notes to follow, but it was directing the congregation in singing, and he thought it so important he wanted some others to practice it so they could do it if he ever got sick or had a sore arm.
That's the only church I've been in where the congregation was specifically led in singing instead of just being expected to go along with the choir and organ/band.
I don't sing when I'm not sure if I'm supposed to. When I first ran into the highly polished stage show kind of praise band, took me a long time to figure out it's OK to sing along. I was unfamiliar with that culture, and couldn't hear that others were singing due to band volume. When a choir sings in 4 part harmony a song I know, I have to check the bulletin (if there is one) to see if it's a choir performance or a sing-along hymn.
A director for the congregation would eliminate those kinds of confusions.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I accept that point to an extent, Cliffdweller, but generally speaking I'd suggest that other than among sports fans and community choirs, singing of any kind isn't particularly a feature of British national life to the extent that it was at one time.
Wales is different - it is still 'the Land of Song' to a certain extent and quite possibly there's more public singing in Scotland and Northern Ireland than there is in England too.
But even there, I don't think there's as much singing going on as once there was.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
The decline of corporate singing in England has been well-documented by the folk duo Show of Hands: Roots
On the whole, it is true - people just don't sing much these days unless they go to football matches or have a strange affection for karaoke.
In my experience, schools try to encourage singing, but frequently it gets squeezed out of the curriculum.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't think there's as much singing going on as once there was.
In my grandma's day if you wanted music you created it yourself. "Everyone" played an instrument - piano or violin if you were wealthy enough, home made cigar box guitar of you were dirt poor. Everyone sang along.
Decline of group singing isn't just invention of radio and TV, or it would have died out long ago. But the old crooners - Perry Como, Bing Crosby, etc sang ranges you could sing too, and the sound quality was real.
I wonder if today's performance ranges and studio tweaked impossible perfection have convinced ordinary people they "can't sing"?
In which case an emphasis on folk, sacred harp, and other styles that celebrate the imperfect singing voice might encourage ordinary people with ordinary voices to sing?
Just wondering out loud. My sense is people do love to sing. Something is silencing them. Fear of criticism for not sounding "good enough"?
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
That's the only church I've been in where the congregation was specifically led in singing instead of just being expected to go along with the choir and organ/band.
'Round these parts, the Methodists and Presbyterians make fun of the Baptists for always having to direct the congregation in singing. And also for always leaving out the third verse of every hymn. In fact, the saying is, "I'm feeling as left out as the third verse of a Baptist hymn."
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
... The modern megachurch rock-concert-as-church type thing, in my opinion, is not conducive to congregational participation, at least with the vocal cords.
I agree.
Karl, what you say is really discouraging, particularly from an area where places like Dronfield and Hathersage have had traditions of singing with gusto their own carols which other people don't know.
Perhaps they are all in the pub.
[ 15. December 2014, 17:00: Message edited by: Angloid ]
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Do we need choir directors to face the congregation and direct them instead of the choir?
All of the churches I know that have good, involved congregational singing do this. I don't think you'd get much of a response w/o it.
Get down to any Salvation Army citadel and you'll hear music and song that will lift your soul to the very gates of heaven. We don't need a musical director or choir master. The band has a bandmaster and sometimes he'll bring the congo in if there's been an introduction, but as he quipped today when our band played to a retired men's forum, he doesn't understand why in churches they need an introduction to the hymns - in TSA as soon as the band plays the first note of the hymn, the congregation is 'right there' in time, pitch perfect.
If you've got a congregation of 200 or 20, you'll get volume, enthusiasm or heartfelt devotion.
And if there are 4 people singing, 3 of them will be singing harmony!
Want singing? Come join our Army!!
(10am Sunday, uniforms not supplied)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I wonder if a culture of worship music being listened to outside of church helps evangelical congregations sing so much?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
On Saturday morning the Salvation Army band were playing and my mind immediately went into carol singing mode! I know all the words, having been a member of choirs for years when young and having a good memory for words, but (a) I find it too difficult to suspend my disbelief of the old-fashioned words, and (b) my voice definitely creaks a lot!! I think it is a great shame that those rousing tunes do not have up-to-date, vigorous, powerful words to replace the very rose-tinted, 19th century ones. All the way home I was singing it in my head, but taking each line and looking at it from a scientific point of view!
By the way, it was, Hark, the Herald Angels sing'.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Diomedes
Shipmate
# 13482
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Posted
To echo Angloid's reference to singing in the pub - in villages around Sheffield such as Dungworth, Lodge Moor and Worrall the carol singing sessions in the pubs are packed to the doors and raise the rafters! I don't know what the singing is like in local churches though - this thread has made me intrigued to find out.
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Distrust simple answers to complicated questions
Posts: 129 | From: Essex England | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
One of the things that helps people to sing is 'fervour'. If you believe what you're singing, you'll mean it.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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cattyish
Wuss in Boots
# 7829
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Posted
I'm in Scotland and have seen a variety of styles of worship done with gusto.
In our wee Baptist congregation in the 70s to 90s we sang Sankey's hymns at full volume at least twice every Sunday. The few faithful ones still sing enthusiastically, but just once on Sundays now. They have added a few newish songs from the first edition of Mission Praise. Occasionally someone claps, and sometimes someone plays a guitar.
The Free Church I went to as a student (they fed me magnificently) in Aberdeen in the 90s sang metric Psalms and paraphrases without instrumental accompaniment but with the help (about a beat and half ahead) of a presenter. The singing was joyful and reverent.
I then went to a Baptist church in Aberdeen where a mixture of piano and band-led modern and ancient songs were sung with gusto.
After that I followed a lad to an independent, happy-clappy, hands down for coffee congregation who felt the need to use much amplification for their band. Even the drums were mic-ed. Again, everyone sang and some of us sang pretty loudly. I managed to be heard singing the descant of certain carols above the electric guitar.
A few years ago I moved to a little parish church with a congregation of about 50 on a Sunday morning in rural North East Scotland. We sing with organ accompaniment and there's a little choir. The congregation are as quiet as mice who have heard the cat coming. I still sing quite loudly, and was a little surprised when someone who had been sitting on the other side of the church entirely said she'd been glad to hear me singing in a service. My volume probably has something to do with me singing opera for a few years.
My singing teacher says she now has to teach children how to make any noise at all when they start singing in the local children's voices choir. Apparently schools have practically no formal music tuition for younger children, though I don't know whether that's local or Scotland wide. The schools I visit don't really have any regular singing for everyone.
Cattyish, lalalalalalaaaaaa!
Posts: 1794 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jul 2004
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
One of the things that helps people to sing is 'fervour'. If you believe what you're singing, you'll mean it.
In our large secular choir, the understanding is that for the period of rehearsal and performance, you believe it. For the same reason.
NZ is a country that has a huge upswing in choral singing over the last 15 years, largely an artefact of many of the original National Youth Choir members (c.1979-1985) having become high school teachers and passing on their fervour. However, what I notice is that when it comes to Christmas, there are only a few carols that people sing. If you look at any of the more commercial carol CDs, you'll know which ones I mean. There are many people who know the standard carols and will sing them lustily, but the minute you head off the commercially beaten track to carols that were well known when I was a kid, e.g., Poverty, or In that poor stable, no one has heard of them.
I find this very sad, as there are hundreds of gorgeous carols from all over the world. Some of them even have halfway decent words, SusanDoris.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cattyish:
Apparently schools have practically no formal music tuition for younger children, though I don't know whether that's local or Scotland wide. The schools I visit don't really have any regular singing for everyone.
We have a lot of pupils learning instruments (probably >50%) out here, but not that many who are willing to sing (particularly but not exclusively the boys) younger pupils are more willing so I think a lot of it is the embarrassment factor. Our school has a very strong tradition (ahem) of traditional music so is probably an exception to the rule - all our students get music tuition from a specialist every week from 5-14 with the option to learn a specific instrument more formally.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Diomedes:
...in villages around Sheffield such as Dungworth, Lodge Moor and Worrall the carol singing sessions in the pubs are packed to the doors and raise the rafters!
Maybe we should be serving more than a sip of wine in church? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Is there something in the atmosphere of church being "serious" so we have to go to the pub if we want to enjoy the music? In church people (congregation, choir, praise band) frown while singing. In the pub they look happy.
People like to sing. Whenever I use an open mic slot not to sing some solo but to lead a sing-along of a familiar song, everyone sings! In nursing homes, they all sing! (I've discovered I love planning and leading sing-alongs.)
I admit I usually pull back to "barely heard" in church because to sing even normal volume is to stand out and I don't want to be accused of trying to call attention to myself. I've read too many on-line protests about anyone who does something identifiable being "a narcissist who is grabbing the spotlight." When everyone is singing and having fun in a house party, there's no such issue. I don't know why. Same people, different behavior, less judgment about the same behavior.
So I'm leaning toward something about church culture, an assumption that enjoying the music is wrong because it means you aren't focusing on God, not properly worshiping. We are supposed to be serious in church. Pub singing doesn't have those layers of complication about why we are singing.
(I wish we had pubs in USA culture!)
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I accept that point to an extent, Cliffdweller, but generally speaking I'd suggest that other than among sports fans and community choirs, singing of any kind isn't particularly a feature of British national life to the extent that it was at one time.
That's true of American life as well, primarily because of drastic cuts to the arts in US public schools-- to the point that they're virtually non-existant. In fact, American churches are currently really the last remnant of group choral singing (note how many American pop singers got their start singing in church gospel choirs). We've even been able to attract several non-Church families to our excellent children's choir program based on that absence in the public schools.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
I wish I had gone to one of the carol singing session in South Yorkshire when I lived not that far away. But I didn't really hear about them until we had moved "darn sarf".
We've been telling some friends here in Canada about them and a number of people are getting very interested about the idea of rocking up to the local pub and blasting out some carols over a drink or two. Maybe next year.....
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I wonder if today's performance ranges and studio tweaked impossible perfection have convinced ordinary people they "can't sing"?
In which case an emphasis on folk, sacred harp, and other styles that celebrate the imperfect singing voice might encourage ordinary people with ordinary voices to sing?
Just wondering out loud. My sense is people do love to sing. Something is silencing them. Fear of criticism for not sounding "good enough"?
Yes. I would blame as well the influence of secular "leadership" models on churches with the notion that it is all about "excellence". The end result being we don't nurture young talent the way we used to.
But the way we get excellent singers/ pianist/ harpists/ guitar players is by listening to and encouraging not-so-excellent-but-growing singers/ pianist/ harpists/ guitar players. When we insist that everyone who "performs" (bad word, but apt in this context) be already "professional" there's no room for learning, for growing-- especially now that that doesn't happen in school. While we don't want to encourage sloppiness/ not taking worship seriously, there's something lovely about a church that encourages and celebrates the faltering, beginning steps of a novice musician.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
When the rock band is too loud that the congregation can't hear themselves then it does not help the worship experience at all.
In fact I find this to be just as bas as when an organist pulls all the stops out and drowns everyone out.
Too loud is too loud no matter what the style is.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
"Please put more carols in the Christmas Day service, as you don't have enough," said my congregation last year.
So this year, I have.
Here is one Aussie, Protestant parish who loves to sing, and who often chuck in a few harmonies for fun. Every Sunday.
No choir. No musical director. Just them.
And I love it!
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
... Like, in my church plenty of people sign up to be readers, light the Advent candles, etc, in a different church I sometimes visit no one signed up to light Advent candles. No one. (The ushers had to do it). ...
That must be one of those strange cultural differences that nobody is aware of until a chance remark draws it out. Almost everywhere in the UK, in my experience, children come up to the front to light the Advent candles. Sometimes they fight about it.
Our minister invites a family each week to be prepared to light an Advent candle (with reading and prayer); during the year the children light a Jesus Candle at the beginning of each service. There are plenty of volunteers for the Readers' and intercessors' rosters.
And we sing. At the end of our carols and readings someone had the bright idea of the congregation (60+ but a few were otherwise busy) joining the choir (maybe 25) to sing the blessing again together while she hopped on a chair to record it. The conductor was trying to make us smile but I needed a hanky!
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Jemima the 9th
Shipmate
# 15106
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Posted
I love to sing. I hate the embarassed singing you often get - one person goes quiet, someone else goes quiet, and eventually no one will sing beyond a murmur. Awful. I definitely experienced this at school - it wasn't cool to sing, as I discovered very quickly. Having come from a church background, I sang with gusto....
I wonder if, in the Christingle service in Karl LB's OP, the cubs & beavers & their parents weren't churchy types and therefore more used to the embarassed muttering rather than gung ho singing.
My congregation sings with varying levels of enthusiasm. Personal prejudice follows: I find it much, much easier to sing hymns, even unfamiliar ones, with 4 or 5 verses and a predictable rhythm, so even if I don't know the hymn at the start, by verse 3 I'll know what I'm doing. The loudest and most enthusiastic singing I've heard at our place lately was to And Can It Be. Rightly so, too, I think. I love that hymn.
I do find modern songs more difficult for congregations - especially if you have a worship leader who doesn't read music and picks up the songs from youtube recordings or Matt Redman / Hillsong albums. The rhythms are more complex, and because the music often seems to be scribed from a concert, they may not be the same in each verse. I also think it's morally wrong to inflict a bridge or instrumental solo on a congregation. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 801 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2009
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
I remember singing at school. Particularly I remember doing what I realise must have been an Australian-themed series of songs in second-year juniors. It's why I now still know the lyrics to Botany Bay and Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree.
I may be an abysmal singer, but I love singing. I was best at it when I was attending an evangelical church with two Sunday services, midweek house group and youth group, plus an ecumenical youth fellowship and school Christian Union.
Even though I'm not a good singer, I like to have the tune in front of me so I can keep an eye on the rhythm and watch the notes go up and down!
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
I wonder if a culture of worship music being listened to outside of church helps evangelical congregations sing so much?
I'd say so. My listening to Premier certainly helped me when new songs came up and i was on PA, as I had a general idea of the album mix in my head for during soundcheck, and during the on-the-fly balancing that any A1 (Front Of House mix) tech does...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I suspect- I have no evidence for this- that in the Uk or at least England and probably Wales, part of the cause of this is something that l'organist hinted at: schools not singing trad hymns or perhaps even any hymns any more. OK, so we used Songs of Praise, product of Uncle Percy's slightly doolally later years, but even so, with Ken Condon the Buddhist music master's excellent piano accompaniment, we sang lots of the sort of mainstream thing that sticks in the memory.
Still, I'm now a governor of a Welsh medium primary school here (with lots of non-Welsh speaking parents) and after the Infants' excellent Christmas Service/ nativity this Friday, one of the mums said to me 'That's what's so great about Welsh schools- they way they get them all singing together'.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
The school I was at used to have a tradition of singing a lot of carols, mostly from A&C Black books, but towards the time when I left some of the year leaders were happier with Santa Claus is coming to Town and Slade, and could not be moved. They were younger than me but still intransigent. Which is why I want to go round my neighbourhood with a bunch of singers. Doing things like While Shepherds watched to Ilkla Moor, and secular stuff like the Gloucestershire Wassail, as well as the standards.
Seeing Albertus' post I suspect that something happened in the 70s in enough places to ensure that there weren't enough musical teachers about. Loss of the piano playing was noticeable and it happened before people started producing CDs to sing along to - some of which are dire with regard to the speed chosen - BBC's Come and Praise has some bad accompaniments.
[ 15. December 2014, 21:58: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
We don't sing any more
Every other young person would like to be a pop star though, so it seems.
I grew up in the British Methodist Church, and congregational singing is still something that Methodists like to join in with. Maybe it's a hangover from the revivalistic days of Methodism.
In future the singing in most public 'religious' events such as weddings might have to be consigned to professional (and probably secular) singers, rather like how the mourning at funerals in some countries was once carried out by paid mourners.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
When the rock band is too loud that the congregation can't hear themselves then it does not help the worship experience at all.
In fact I find this to be just as bas as when an organist pulls all the stops out and drowns everyone out.
Too loud is too loud no matter what the style is.
But on the other hand, the organist and congregation must not get into a race to the bottom where the organists play more quietly to avoid drowning the congregation, which means the congregation sing more quietly so as not to stand out, causing the organist to play yet more quietly und so weiter.
The organist should play loudly enough to make the congregation sing up (but no louder). Judging this from the console can be very difficult.
Accompanying hymns is not at all as easy as you might think. It's something that "reluctants" (i.e. pianists pressed into playing the organ) find very difficult. If it's not done well, the result will not encourage congregational singing.
Posts: 695 | From: Bronteland | Registered: Mar 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus:
Accompanying hymns is not at all as easy as you might think. It's something that "reluctants" (i.e. pianists pressed into playing the organ) find very difficult. If it's not done well, the result will not encourage congregational singing.
Difficult on organ OR piano.
I was trying to learn piano so I could sub if needed. Good thing no one needed. The trad hymns change chord every note! And you have to read both staffs to put the chord together.
I bought a hymn fake book to enjoy at home, and eliminate half the chords when playing. Not what a church would expect.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I admit I usually pull back to "barely heard" in church because to sing even normal volume is to stand out and I don't want to be accused of trying to call attention to myself.
From someone who sings badly (I'm usually in the same county as the tune), please sing out I sing in church. I want to sing in church, but everyone else really doesn't want to hear me. I need people like you, who can sing, to sing out loud and proud to help me follow the tune, and to mask my off-key voice.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I guess I can provide a somewhat odd perspective on this.
I basically taught myself singing in Church, and in the RCC at that. My music education was basically non-existent, at least on the practical level. I entered the RCC as an adult via the FSSP (Catholic trads), so my first introduction to Church music was basically Gregorian chant-along! I still think that basically beats anything out there for non-professional participation, but perhaps for the most rousing of hymns. And so for a simple technical reason: you don't have to keep absolute pitch, for there is none, just relative one. As long as you ears can hear when the tone goes up or down, you can sing along. It's actually very simple for the regular chants. (Of course, there are chant "show pieces" that are very difficult to do...)
However, since then I have spend my time for the most part in non-trad RC churches, who would probably die of shock if anything resembling Gregorian chant was tried. Well, after my good experience with chanting, and keeping "He who sings, prays twice” in mind (falsely attributed to St Augustine), I decided to try to learn "regular" singing. So for the next six years or so I made a conscious effort to sing along with the songs that would be posted in Sunday mass. It worked, sort of. I can now carry a tune, at least a basic one. I have learned how to manage my breath (in particular important when one has to go high), I rapidly hear and remember "typical" patterns of music, etc. I even can sort of read music a bit, at least in the sense that if I look at the score I can much improve my "guessing" of the tune and even "sing ahead" on the first stanza rather than just a fraction of a second "behind" the choir while learning the tune. (I would be way better at reading music from this "training" if the hymn book actually always gave us notes to read. For the most part, we just get the text. And yes, I had a minimal background on reading musical notes from my high school education. But really what was left of that in my memory was basically "typographic recognition".)
So about six years down the track, I find that I am often one of the few strong voices in the congregation that joins the choir. I find this both amusing and tragically satisfying. And I now start to get this feeling of "why are not more people joining in, this is both holy and fun"? But of course from my own experience I can guess an answer: because many people are like me, never having had anything to do with music but consuming it, and few people are so crazy as me and construct some kind of music education out of trying for years to participate in singing at mass.
I would add that in my experience instrumental accompaniment is just as likely to kill singing as it is to encourage it. I find in particular the "guy with a guitar singing while strumming a song" setting is deadly. Basically everybody starts to switch to a "concert listening" mode. Whereas an organist giving a kind of "soft and neutral" accompaniment can give some backbone to the singing, in particular if he or she sort of "foreshadows" the tune before singing starts so that people have the tune in their minds. I also still find a few songs where after a few lines I think "I can't sing that" and stop. These typically have "strange sounds" and "difficult rhythms" (sorry, as I've said, basically no music education), but most importantly, they persist in them. Sometimes you get songs that have a tough part or two, but that's OK. You get a hang of that after the second attempt. What is annoying is if you have to concentrate hard during the entire song because it all is in that mode. (Not that it doesn't "work" if you hear it performed, but I just can't get into it.) And there are also plenty of songs which I find, well, uninspiring to sing. Though I do not necessarily agree with the "old songs good, modern songs bad" judgement that I often see. There certainly is a trend for older songs to be more singable (and have less saccharine / crypto-heretic lyrics...), but there is not such a clear divide for me there experientially.
Anyway, I have no idea what "lessons" to draw from this. I just thought I would mention this, since "singing along" has been a pet project during mass for me personally.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Alex Cockell
Ship’s penguin
# 7487
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Posted
Ingo - was that guy-with-a-guitar stuff more of an "intimate event" level of gain - as in a single guy on an electro-acoustic playing through backline, rather than the fully mic'd electric instruments with plenty of oomph type of thing?
I suppose we DI everything and have subwoofers so we can push that magic 85dBA level...
Posts: 2146 | From: Reading, Berkshire UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus:
Accompanying hymns is not at all as easy as you might think. It's something that "reluctants" (i.e. pianists pressed into playing the organ) find very difficult. If it's not done well, the result will not encourage congregational singing.
Indeed. I once sang in a church choir where a very gifted concert pianist was a member of the congregation. The organist, quite gifted herself, tried to teach him organ so that he could sub for her when needed, but the results were disastrous!
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I bought a hymn fake book to enjoy at home, and eliminate half the chords when playing. Not what a church would expect.
Unfortunately that's the kind of organ accompaniment that makes me stop singing. I like to sing harmony, and if the organist isn't playing what's written I just give up.
I also don't sing songs of which I don't approve. I've called them various things in MW reports: singing nun ditties, artless claptrap, pabulum, etc.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Ingo - was that guy-with-a-guitar stuff more of an "intimate event" level of gain - as in a single guy on an electro-acoustic playing through backline, rather than the fully mic'd electric instruments with plenty of oomph type of thing?
Yes. I have no experience with "rock concert" style of musical performances in a religious setting.
(I also note that my previous post contained four "basically" in four sequential sentences. That's a new stylistic low for me, and presumably shows that I'm nervously writing out of my depth here. Music is a weird sort of magic for non-musicians...)
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
IngoB wrote quite a bit, including these two fragments:
I can now carry a tune, at least a basic one. I have learned how to manage my breath (in particular important when one has to go high), I rapidly hear and remember "typical" patterns of music, etc. I even can sort of read music a bit, at least in the sense that if I look at the score I can much improve my "guessing" of the tune and even "sing ahead" on the first stanza rather than just a fraction of a second "behind" the choir while learning the tune....
"Why are not more people joining in, this is both holy and fun"?
I'm a little behind you on the level you've reached. I can sort of carry a tune, but I still haven't got the breathing right!
And yes, it's holy, yes, it's fun, even when we aren't that good at it!
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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