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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Islam and violence
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
Is Islam intrinsically violent?
Does the Qu'ran teach domination of Jews, Christians and other infidels?
Is there a ''blind side'' of this religion, which somehow encourages violence and death? Is ISIS representative of the faith or a medieval throwback?
I am asking this as we try and move on from Paris and the two terrorist massacres. I am asking quite a few questions here, the answers I really don't know; I know little about Islam. If there are shipmates who could enlighten me I'd be grateful.
Saul the Apostle
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Is Islam intrinsically violent?
Of course not, or the overwhelming majority of the world's 2.2 billion Muslims wouldn't live in peace each day.
quote:
Does the Qu'ran teach domination of Jews, Christians and other infidels?
I recommend you answer this question by finding and reading an English interpretation of the Qu'ran. There is a recommendations thread in Heaven on this topic. However, the short answer is this: Mostly no. But the Qu'ran was written at a time when Mohammed was intermittently at war with his neighbours, and contains passages designed to assist with the brutality of Early Medieval warfare. The Bible is not short of such passages either (although for the Iron Age through to the late classical era).
quote:
Is there a ''blind side'' of this religion, which somehow encourages violence and death? Is ISIS representative of the faith or a medieval throwback?
It's not a 'blind side' at all. The leaders of ISIS and Al Qaeda know exactly what they're doing, and a big part of that is to gain political power by representing the faith as uncompromising. Things like violent responses to peaceful offences (such as depictions of the prophet) are designed to drive a wedge between Muslims and non-Muslims, to drive more Muslims towards ISIS et al. There are Christian leaders who do the same thing, and we are all the losers in both cases.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I think you're being disingenuous Saul.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
No, IMO Islam is not inherently violent, history will show that.
My view is that there is a confluence of political, social and cultural, economic and religious factors that have led to a situation in which numbers of Muslim people in various parts of the world feel justified in using extreme violence.
It is unfair, ignorant and divisive to say it's because of their religion -plenty of people of all faiths and none commit acts of horrendous violence but it's also untrue to say that religion has nothing to do with the current acts of terrorism and violence being carried out by Al Quaeda, ISIL, lone wolf Islamists and others.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
the Qu'ran was written at a time when Mohammed was intermittently at war with his neighbours, and contains passages designed to assist with the brutality of Early Medieval warfare. The Bible is not short of such passages either (although for the Iron Age through to the late classical era).
I think this is the crucial bit.
Christianity has shown an ability to reinterpret itself over time - and crucially, reinterpretation is part of its narrative (to take just one of many possible examples, "you have heard it said... but I say unto you...").
Efforts are certainly being made by many Muslims to reinterpret Islam for the present age, and I am having active conversations with some who are trying to do that. Part of the current problems are with those who think that such attempts are anathema.
(I'm not qualified to judge whether the Qu'ran has within itself as much potential as the Bible in this respect beyond noting that it seems a lot depends on whether a notoriously difficult original text can legitimately be translated; as far as the Bible goes, I firmly believe that it can and should be).
However, by all accounts the jihadists at an operational level have a cobbled-together smorgasboard of belief that bears little or no resemblance at all to historic Islam. I think this is part of the legacy of secularism; having nothing transcendent to believe in, people start believing in anything that looks remotely transcendent.
As far as France goes, the big hope for me - of which there is already some evidence - is that religion can again become a legitimate subject of public life and debate.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I think you're being disingenuous Saul.
Am I? Simply I am asking some questions on a topic I know very little about.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
If you say so Saul. What do you know about Judaism Saul? And Zionism Saul? And Ayn Rand Saul? And the struggle to transcend the justification of violence as redemptive in any way Saul?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
One other thing: much of what the Prophet is said to have said on many topics does not come from the Qu'ran (which after all is supposed to be mostly what God said) but from various sayings sources called Hadith. These are not all equally respected, and they can contradict each other, despite the apparently pretty good research efforts of the original compilers. A lot of scholarly debate revolves around the relative merits of these traditions.
Some hadith seem to our modern eyes quite progressive, others startlingly repressive. Naturally, different groups, traditions, and individuals place different weight on these.
Some ultra-fundamentalists profess no interest in hadith, but only the Qu'ran. This often means that their own leaders' words and thoughts stand in for Mohammed's in interpreting the book. You may imagine for yourself how this goes down with scholars, both progressive and conservative, who spend their time trying to make fair decisions based on hadith.
t
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Saul, you profess you know little of Islam but that hasn't prevented you commenting on that very topic in the past. Here's a post of yours from November last.
Now, can you please stop pretending that you are coming to this as an innocent outsider. Just as you know my position, I know yours.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
I am asking some questions on a topic I know very little about.
Why are you asking questions here? I thought this was a Christian website? If you want to know more about Islam, wouldn't it be better to ask your questions on an Islamic website?
Asking your questions here would be a good idea if you like knowing very little about the topic and want to stay that way.
[ 11. January 2015, 22:52: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Is Islam violent? Perhaps. Is it as violent as Christianity or Judaism? Probably the way to judge that is to look at what religions dominate the countries that dominate the world militarily. Islam may have had a golden age of violence, but it's sadly behind Christianity in the dominate your neighbor struggles of the current age. Of course you could pretend that that dominance isn't due to violence but eloquent preaching. That will work as long as you don't look at history.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
What is 'Islam'?
There are many people in the world who claim to follow 'Islam'. Many are peaceful and claim that 'Islam' is peaceful and argue based on interpretations of the Qur'an. Some are violent and claim that 'Islam' is violent and also argue on interpretations of the Qur'an and Hadith.
I don't believe that any of the 'Islam's are correct. I do not believe that Mohammad received the Qur'an from the angel Gabriel. I do not believe that the Qur'an is a revelation from God or that Mohammad was a prophet.
So what basis do I have to determine what is the 'true' Islam? Or what the Qur'an 'truly' teaches? I can determine the most common Islams, the most peaceful Islams, the most violent Islams.
But I'm not sure how I could answer the OP's question except sociologically; ie many conceptions of Islam are peaceful but historically and today some conceptions are violent. In relatively few conceptions of Islam is there an idea of the separation the secular from the sacred (i.e. Church and State) or an idea that respect for the freedom of individual conscience should extend to allowing that individual to express blasphemous opinions without punishment.
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Teufelchen:
Some ultra-fundamentalists profess no interest in hadith, but only the Qu'ran. This often means that their own leaders' words and thoughts stand in for Mohammed's in interpreting the book. You may imagine for yourself how this goes down with scholars, both progressive and conservative, who spend their time trying to make fair decisions based on hadith.
Interestingly my experience has been the opposite. Quran-only Muslims that I have come across were progressive, and are often considered not true Muslims by more 'fundamental' Muslims. The, um, somewhat unclear nature of the Qur'an seemed to give them flexibility in interpretation which the (sometimes pretty horrific) Hadith denied them.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That's what I have run into , too, Demas
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Could it be that Islam is at the same stage as Christianity was during the crusades? The only difference is that weapons and communications are much more sophisticated now so the outcomes are more drastic.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
It definitely seems to be at a tipping point. Which, in my mind, makes it that much more important to support people who are trying to get it to tip the right way.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Demas
Ship's Deserter
# 24
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Could it be that Islam is at the same stage as Christianity was during the crusades?
It would be nice to think so but I don't think history works that way.
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They did not appear very religious; that is, they were not melancholy; and I therefore suspected they had not much piety - Life of Rev John Murray
Posts: 1894 | From: Thessalonica | Registered: May 2004
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Saul, you profess you know little of Islam but that hasn't prevented you commenting on that very topic in the past. Here's a post of yours from November last.
Now, can you please stop pretending that you are coming to this as an innocent outsider. Just as you know my position, I know yours.
SS - This sounds ever so conspiratorial, it's almost like a re-run of ''The Protocols of the Elders of Zion''. Some say it's true, some say it's a lie and so on. If we take entrenched positions we'll never meet in the middle for a Sainsburys advert will we.
I ''know yours'', not sure what your point is here? It's like we're long lost debating partners, who bump into each other, to lock horns at our London club over Port and papers.
The questions I asked are legitimate ones surely. I genuinely know little about Islam; what I do know is that after numerous Islamic terrorist outrages, many people are asking some fundamental questions about this religion and the adherence of some of it's members to violence.
Hence my OP.
I too am asking some questions about some of the adherents of this religion, specifically those who seem to be wedded to extreme, systematic and repulsive violence.
They are genuine questions and they deserve genuine answers.
Saul the Apostle
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
They are genuine questions and they deserve genuine answers.
It would have been more honest if you had stated your strongly-held position on these genuine questions rather than pretended this was a first foray of yours into the area to gather views.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Saul, you profess you know little of Islam but that hasn't prevented you commenting on that very topic in the past. Here's a post of yours from November last.
Now, can you please stop pretending that you are coming to this as an innocent outsider. Just as you know my position, I know yours.
SS - This sounds ever so conspiratorial, it's almost like a re-run of ''The Protocols of the Elders of Zion''. Some say it's true, some say it's a lie and so on. If we take entrenched positions we'll never meet in the middle for a Sainsburys advert will we.
I ''know yours'', not sure what your point is here? It's like we're long lost debating partners, who bump into each other, to lock horns at our London club over Port and papers.
The questions I asked are legitimate ones surely. I genuinely know little about Islam; what I do know is that after numerous Islamic terrorist outrages, many people are asking some fundamental questions about this religion and the adherence of some of it's members to violence.
Hence my OP.
I too am asking some questions about some of the adherents of this religion, specifically those who seem to be wedded to extreme, systematic and repulsive violence.
They are genuine questions and they deserve genuine answers.
Saul the Apostle
OK, if you really do know so little Islam then it gives a weak base for your earlier posts but, if we look at the part of your post I have italicised, I don't think there have been many religions that can't be used to justify violence and most of them have. I'll exclude Bah'aiism, because that seems to be composed of people who are repelled by the violence done in the name of other faiths and political systems.
In any event, most violence, whether terrorist or not, is the outcome of a desire for power over others. Attributing it to an ideology, faith or national security is usually a bid to garner support among the usually far more numerous peaceful supporters.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
They are genuine questions and they deserve genuine answers.
It would have been more honest if you had stated your strongly-held position on these genuine questions rather than pretended this was a first foray of yours into the area to gather views.
I certainly believe that the Jewish people deserve a viable homeland and nation. Whether you could call me a ''Christian Zionist'' depends on how you define the term itself. I make no bones about it. I stand by my posts of November 2013 or 14 as SS has pointed them out.
But we don't come onto SOF with a badge of varied political /spiritual affiliations do we? Unless by my prolonged absence things have changed?
However, that aside, I genuinely am asking these questions, genuinely because I don't have the answers. I suspect some in the West may be asking similar questions too, if they were honest. Simples.
Saul.
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
To "move on from Paris and the terrorist massacres" involves a decision not to attempt, as you have done, to define that issue solely in terms of Islam.
That makes about as much sense as taking the Lord's Resistance Army as representative of Christianity. Do you think it is? Do you think restrictive measures against Christianity would have been effective in putting an end to the LRA?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Shipmates
If you want to make this thread about Saul, I'm not going to let you. Call him to Hell if you think he is being disingenuous or coming at this highly provocative topic with a preset agenda.
Saul the Apostle
We draw a distinction here between posting provocative topics and being personally provocative. The former is, generally, accepted provided threads don't turn into rants (which gets them moved to Hell). The latter is judged by Admin under the general category of Commandment 1 jerkiness (which includes flamebaiting).
You have a posting history here. So be very careful how you contribute to this thread, else a reference to Admin will be inevitable.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
[ 12. January 2015, 09:34: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think humans definitely have a tendency to violence - look at Europe in the last century, to see copious amounts of it. But I don't think that any religion has any monopoly - they sort of share it out!
The Middle East is quite a violent place at the moment, but I don't think this is because of Islam. There are a number of causes - first, the old secularist regimes became very corrupt and violent, and a number of insurgencies have developed against them.
Second, the West has hurled huge amounts of violence at the region - invasions, bombings, drone-strikes, and so on - and again insurgencies have developed against this.
Third, a massive vacuum developed in Arab politics, as the old secularists were utterly discredited, and the left were basically wiped out. The Islamists have leapt into this vacuum.
But even Islamism is not inherently violent.
The odd thing is that 'Islam is inherently violent' is the creed of Al Quaeda and IS!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
I'm actually going to return to the original question and say: of course not. It's not Islam. And rooting through the Qu'ran to find "smash the infidel" passages is a massive red herring, even if they are there. They're in the Bible, and I'm pretty sure that when it comes down to it all the Christians who aren't out slaughtering others right now aren't basing their decision whether or not to do so on what's in the Bible. Because that just isn't how people work.
If we want to do something about the problem of Islamist extremism, we need to look at what it has in common with other situations in which one group of "ordinary" people hates another enough to kill those they don't even know.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Barnabas62,
I apologise for concentrating my fire on the person, not the argument.
Sioni
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
I suppose the best way to find out the answer to the OP is to compare crime figures from the rest of the country to crime figures in Birmingham.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Stumbling Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 7637
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
I suppose the best way to find out the answer to the OP is to compare crime figures from the rest of the country to crime figures in Birmingham.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) I see what you did there!
Speaking of which (possible slight tangent, sorry) - is spreading deliberate falsehood on a national news channel protected by the First Amendment? Not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious as to how this sort of thing can happen unchallenged, given that it seems likely to create tension.
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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
Posts: 492 | From: England | Registered: Jun 2004
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Moominpappa
Apprentice
# 12044
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Posted
The question reminded me of this article , written in the wake of the Sydney Cafe siege, comparing the motivations of previous 'terorists' with those who conduct attacks in the name of Islam today. One quote, but it's worth reading the whole thing if you have 10 minutes:
When skyjacking dominated the papers, there was a certain inevitability about a percentage of lost or damaged individuals declaring themselves skyjackers. Now, with the media fixated on Islam, we’re seeing a comparable tendency for loners and misfits to embrace jihad, not because they’ve studied the theology of Sayyid Qutb or received training in Afghanistan, but because the rhetoric of holy war offers certainty – and waving a black flag gets them noticed.
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Abbot Anthony then asked Abbot Joseph 'How would you explain this saying from the scriptures?' and he replied 'I do not know.' Then Abbot Anthony said 'Indeed, Abbot Joseph has found the way, for he has said "I do not know."'
Posts: 16 | From: Hampshire, England. | Registered: Nov 2006
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
is spreading deliberate falsehood on a national news channel protected by the First Amendment? Not a rhetorical question...
Well, Al Sharpton has a nightly program on a national news channel sooo.....yes, yes it is.
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
is spreading deliberate falsehood on a national news channel protected by the First Amendment? Not a rhetorical question...
Well, Al Sharpton has a nightly program on a national news channel sooo.....yes, yes it is.
Not claiming Mr. Sharpton is unbiased, but no one, out side of maybe these guys or Pravda during the Cold War twists "news" more than Murdoch's Crew
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
is spreading deliberate falsehood on a national news channel protected by the First Amendment? Not a rhetorical question...
Well, Al Sharpton has a nightly program on a national news channel sooo.....yes, yes it is.
Not claiming Mr. Sharpton is unbiased, but no one, out side of maybe these guys or Pravda during the Cold War twists "news" more than Murdoch's Crew
I wouldn't be so sure. We have SKY TV and Murdoch papers in Britain too, but for a long and uninterrupted record of malicious mendacity the Daily Mail beats them hands down.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Is the use of religion to attempt to reverse domination by the west resembles that people become alcoholic sometimes to deal with emotional troubles and then with enough practice the emotional troubles recede and the alcohol is the central issue. Just read alcohol for religion and emotional troubles for power and economic control.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Sorry, Sioni, I was keeping it simple and local for him.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Sorry, Sioni, I was keeping it simple and local for him.
By citing KCNA and Pravda?
And a purg personal attack to boot!?
Nicely done!
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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I'll hold my hand up and say I'm biased.
I DO believe Islam is a violent religion - so call me to Hell!
Boko Haran
Al Quaida
IS
The Government of Saudi Arabia
Hamas
These are not individuals; these are not lone wolves; these are not idiots who misunderstand their religion. These are heavily sponsored, organised and supported.
Can anyone tell me what the Christian or Jewish equivalent of these groups is, funded and supported by thousands, millions even, of people?
In answer my question, please refer to the Vicar of Baghdad who speaks of IS cutting children from his congregation in half, and the Boko Haran Muslims who just slaughtered 2000 children, women and old people in BAGA
I'm sorry, but I do not see Christianity being manifested or even misused anywhere in the world to commit stuff like this.
And when the Islamic Saudi government beats people for freedom of speech, I would like to know what is the Christian equivalent of Sharia law.
I would also suggest that the reason that Western Muslims are peaceful is simply because they live under Western Law and democratic society.
Why are the middle eastern countries that are governed according to islamic principles not like this?
Where do Christian societies behead adulterers and stone adulterers.
Note that even in Britain, Muslims are willing to kill their young women in 'honour killings' if they marry the person they choose.
THIS is why people think Islam is violent.
Putting on my hard hat now.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
And a purg personal attack to boot!?
Your attempt at junior hosting is noted.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
....These are heavily sponsored, organised and supported.... funded and supported by thousands, millions even, of people?
Lots wrong with the rest of your post but let's start here. Thousands out of billions wouldn't be much of a proportion and would perhaps be very good evidence that most Muslims are peaceable. Millions would be more concerning. Can you show this is the level of support for ISIS for instance?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
It's simply a logical error.
'Some Muslims are violent, therefore Islam is violent' does not compute.
Compare, 'some Germans in WWII carried out genocide, therefore Germans are genocidal', or in fact, any equivalent statement.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
....These are heavily sponsored, organised and supported.... funded and supported by thousands, millions even, of people?
Lots wrong with the rest of your post but let's start here. Thousands out of billions wouldn't be much of a proportion and would perhaps be very good evidence that most Muslims are peaceable. Millions would be more concerning. Can you show this is the level of support for ISIS for instance?
Erm, the fact that they can sweep across a country and take over whole towns rather suggests a fair bit of support and external resourcing, don't you think?
And anyway, I'm think of the total support for all these groups together. None of these groups are lone gunmen!
And Sharia law isn't just the opinion of some radical Imam somewhere in one mosque.
[ 12. January 2015, 18:21: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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Ikkyu
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# 15207
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Posted
What about the recent torture revelations in the US?
And the large numbers of innocents killed in drone strikes?
Or the civilians killed in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Or the torture and war crimes in Algeria done by France?
Are those Christian crimes?
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Can anyone tell me what the Christian or Jewish equivalent of these groups is, funded and supported by thousands, millions even, of people?
Well, for a start it's estimated the IRA had about 8000 active members during 20 years. Sinn Fein regularly got over 100,000 votes, though quite likely most of those supported the cause but not the methods of the IRA. How many supporters in the US and elsewhere? Certainly an equivalent organisation with 10's of thousands of supporters.
The Lord's Resistance Army has already been mentioned, with an estimated 3000 soldiers. Plus all the people needed to support those soldiers, probably at least 10 times the number of actual soldiers. So, a second equivalent with 10's of thousands of supporters.
The Ku Klux Klan currently has an estimated membership of 5-8 thousand. But, in the early part of the 20th Century had a membership in the millions.
Anyone have any idea of the size and support for Christian militia in Lebanon during the civil war there?
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
What about the recent torture revelations in the US?
And the large numbers of innocents killed in drone strikes?
Or the civilians killed in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Or the torture and war crimes in Algeria done by France?
Are those Christian crimes?
Also, do those examples mean that the French and the Americans are intrinsically brutal? No, of course not. It's a false generalization.
In fact, it's the logic used by Al Quaeda and IS. 'Westerners come to our homeland and inflict massive violence on us; therefore Westerners are intrinsically violent and destructive people'. False logic.
But also deadly.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
<load of Islamophobic stuff>
Putting on my hard hat now.
That looks more like a hard heart than a hard hat. If Christianity has a cardinal virtue it is that it operates on the basis of unconditional love, and doesn't use the methods of those that attack it and Christ's followers.
That takes a lot more courage than any amount of military action. More than I can muster too.
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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Well, for about a 1000 years, Christians burned people. What generalization can we draw from this? Hardly any.
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Islam is violent in the way that Christianity was violent 600 or so years ago, and in the way Judaism was during the Old Testament times. Perhaps it is common for religions to go through stages, and we're just in that stage in the aging of Islam?
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Green Mario
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# 18090
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Posted
It seems to me that there isn't much difference between the track records of Christianity and Islam when it comes to violence.
Having said that I think there is very little justification for violence when looking at the entire bible because the revelation of Jesus eclipses anything revealed in the old testament and there is no justification of violence in the life of Jesus and the gospels; while there is justification for violence in the Quran and Mohammad was a military leader.
Christian fundamentalists can easily end up as pacifists if they take the words and life of Jesus seriously and literally, I don't think it would be easy to end up as a pacifist through taking the words and life of Mohammad seriously and literally.
A puzzle therefore is why are most Muslims more peace loving than the revelation that they claim to base their lives on while many Christians are far more warlike that the revelation we claim to base our lives on.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Islam is violent in the way that Christianity was violent 600 or so years ago, and in the way Judaism was during the Old Testament times. Perhaps it is common for religions to go through stages, and we're just in that stage in the aging of Islam?
It depends on your point of view. Some people in the Arab and Muslim world will point at all the violence wreaked on the Middle East by the West in the past few years - invasions, bombings, drone-strikes - and will say, 'there is your Christian West for you, loving its neighbour as only it knows how - by killing them!'
I think some of them see the West as horrendously violent and cruel, but we don't like to think that.
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Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Ikkyu
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# 15207
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Posted
Attacking Islam because of ISIS and making blanket statements about a whole religion with billions of followers is analogous.
(Note I did not say identical), to blaming Judaism for mistakes done by the IDF or a particular Israeli government.
What makes a given criticism of Israel anti-semitic is generalizing to a whole religion.
This type of over-generalization causes things like the attacks on the kosher supermarket.
Making the same kind of statements against Islam that ISIS makes about Judaism can only lead to the same kind of thing. The deaths of more innocent people. Or does anyone posting those statements here think that doing so will lead to peace?
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Saul the Apostle
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# 13808
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Posted
Barnabas,
I shall behave myself and try to be a perfect English gentleman. But just as I was about to draw my trusty Excaliber sword of truth ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) you rescuded me from ad hominem attack ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Anyway.
I couldn't find a British survey but the next best (or worse depending on your POV) is a US based survey from Christianity Today. It asked: ''Does Islam Encourage Violence More Than Any Other Religion?''
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2014/september/does-islam-encourage-violence-more-than-other-religions-pew.html?pa ging=off
The findings are not a surprise with white republicans feeling that Islam was more violent etc. and say black protestants far less so.
The debate is certainly is all to be had and I would add violence and murder are not unknown in our (European neck of the woods) manor and the debate whilst needed shouldn't be about throwing brickbats and scoring cheap points against Muslims.
Saul the Apostle
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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